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Tue May 2, 2017, 07:47 PM

I know this is going to be unpopular but I am friends with and I understand many Trump supporters

I know this is going to be unpopular but I am friends with and I understand many Trump supporters - The Deplorables.

You think that they must be crazy to support Trump after everything we have heard. And, that is the thing. They have not heard the latest news. They pay little attention to the news and what is happening in the world because they are spending time with their kids, tending cattle or deployed in the military. What they know is that they do not like the direction the country is going.

These people are not bigots or sexist pigs. They are good solid Americans.

And, they are coming around. There is a lot they did not like about Trump and about Hillary. They didn't vote for Trump or against Hillary. They voted to change the status quo.

They are coming around.

Right now we have the opportunity to change a lot minds. We need to stop excluding people and putting them down. We need to open up and welcome everyone interested in change for the better.

Believe it or not, issue by issue, they agree with Democrats. They just don't like what the label has become. This is our fight to win.

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Reply I know this is going to be unpopular but I am friends with and I understand many Trump supporters (Original post)
tecelote May 2017 OP
guillaumeb May 2017 #1
tecelote May 2017 #90
Squinch May 2017 #99
tecelote May 2017 #107
Squinch May 2017 #116
GulfCoast66 May 2017 #157
sharedvalues May 2017 #352
Red Oak May 2017 #259
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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 07:53 PM

1. Recommended.

And yes, I also anticipate negative responses, but my feeling is that we must reach out to Trump voters as well as reach out to the much larger number of registered non-voters.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #1)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:02 PM

90. Correct. Without them, we lose.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #90)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:09 PM

99. Your argument is that THEY made a terrible mistake, so WE need to compromise to accomodate

them.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

If they are really regretting what they did, that means that they understand that we were right.

If they understand that we are right, we don't need to become "republican lite" to accommodate them.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #99)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:16 PM

107. I just talk to them. They are my neighbors.

No Republican Lite. I'm as left as you get. They know it.

They listen and some learn. Some disagree but still feel conned by Trump. It's becoming a talking point for all sides. It's a good move for us all to talk.

Despise them all you want. They just won't listen to you. That's what doesn't make sense.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #107)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:28 PM

116. They are my family. I know them. They aren't actually listening to you any more than they're

listening to me. The only thing I agree with you on is that they are uninformed and uninterested in doing the work to be a responsible citizen. And because of that, what they are really doing is looking for the next sound bite that they can repeat at parties and sound like they know what they are talking about.

And see my post below: what exactly does this détente look like? What rights or values are you going to give up to accommodate them? Because that's really what we're talking about, isn't it?

We're already seeing a collapse of the Democratic party's support for a woman's right to own her own body. That's happening because we don't want to offend that waffling Trump voter. So what are YOU willing to give up so that these erstwhile Trump voters will feel right at home in the Democratic party? Environmental protections? Gay marriage? Funding for public schools? I can't be the only one with a stake in this game. So pony up.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #116)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:43 PM

157. Like you my family members are pretty much unreachable and I will not even try

However, I have friends, even good friends who voted for him. They do not consume very much news listening to sports radio rather than NPR and they all have kids that take up all of their time.

But they are pro-choice, pro-LGBT rights and while softer on racial issue than I, are by no means conscious bigots. If they were any of the previous they would not be my friends.

They are all about my age, 50ish, came up under Reagan and are still drinking the small government cool-aid and believing that low taxes will mean more and better jobs. But the health care thing has some of them spooked and it would not take divine interference to convince them that more government can mean more and better jobs.

My best approach to them has been to point out Germany and the Nordic states and how they are now richer than we are and we have been going in opposite directions since the Reagan revolution. And to remind them of tax policy back in the 50's when supposedly American was Great. Obviously we are all white or else they would know in their very souls that American was not all that great!

I even have a few of them agreeing that the death penalty is bad policy as well as morally horrific. Well, convinced that it is bad policy, not sure they share my moral revulsion of it.

The fact that I am a recent convert and left the dark side after being friends with them for decades gives me credence. They were dumbfounded when I announced I had change my politics, views and party registration.

Leading up to the election few of them loved Trump but I think they all ended up voting for him. Funny, in the last month or so they have not once wanted to bring up politics!

Have a nice evening.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #157)

Thu May 4, 2017, 12:18 AM

352. Do they ever watch fox news or listen to conservative radio?

That can explain a lot about people that love small government.

I find it useful to explain how the Koches are making a strategic investment - they pay for media and politicians to destroy the government purely to keep more money in their own pocket. I've found people tell me I'm wrong. And then a few months later when I talk to them again they've come around. (No one wants to admit they've been fooled, but let it percolate for a few months - it works to change minds)

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Response to Squinch (Reply #116)

Wed May 3, 2017, 10:36 AM

259. What do you think we need to do to stem the losses nationally and win elections?

I am interested in your thoughts on how you think we win and what we need to change, if anything.

The facts are that we have been losing seats locally, at the state level and nationally for some time now. It seems to me that something needs to change. That change does not necessarily need to be about policy, it could be about communication or something else, but there seems a problem somewhere.

One answer I see often on the boards is that "we won the popular vote" and don't need to change anything. If doing what we have been doing is working, then why the continuing losses?

So, how do we win?

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Response to Red Oak (Reply #259)

Wed May 3, 2017, 03:54 PM

319. Reach out to Sanders supporters, not Trump supporters.

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Response to Red Oak (Reply #259)

Wed May 3, 2017, 07:09 PM

339. Well, since you ask. I didn't think this first point needed to be said but obviously it does given

the conversations I've seen on DU this week: First and foremost, we do not jettison our values. WE are the party with the values that appeal to the majority of eligible voters. We hold fast to our values and show that we are not holding our fingers in the wind to figure out which lie to tell. We hold fast to our values to show that, unlike Republicans, we actually value them.

Second, and this has been discussed umpteen times in the past, only 27% of the electorate voted. Hillary lost by small numbers of votes in all the swing states she lost in. Small numbers and small percentages. Get out the vote. Every person who is voting and aware find a person who is apathetic and bring them to the polls. Each of us convince one of them. Not a trump voter, an non-voter. That doubles the numbers of voters on our side.

I think you have found another powerful answer to your question when you talk about communication:

We had a FABULOUS platform. Really, stellar. Possibly the best ever. The platform points about how to bring jobs to the rust belt should have been on billboards, in every OP ed page, in TV ads, in radio ads, passed out after church services and in PTA meetings. You shouldn't have been able to turn around in those Michigan or Ohio or Pennsylvania towns without having those plans put under your nose.

The platform positions about net neutrality, about equal rights for EVERYONE should have been treated likewise in a targeted manner.

The fact that the Republicans have screwed the middle class forever is something a LOT of the middle class knows nothing about. All those graphs about all the money going to the .01%? All the information about who is actually paying taxes? The information about how Republicans always raise unemployment and the Democrats always bring it down? The fact that Republicans always blow out the deficit and the Democrats bring it under control? Those facts also should be much better known. Billboards, targeted mailers, fliers outside town meetings, ice cream stores, ball games. Those facts need to get out, and they need to get out in ways that don't depend on the viewer tuning in to a station they aren't going to tune into.

That's a few things to start with. I've got a million of them. But watering down or dropping our core values so we appeal to those who disrespect my rights and yours will never be on my list.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #107)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:04 PM

143. It all depends on what media they are consuming; that determines what universe they inhabit.

You have to consider people's media sources.Those who think
they are getting objective truth from FAUX, etc. live in an alternative universe that rarely, if ever, intersects with the one you and I live in. I know intelligent people who watch FAUX and they think my sources are as fake as I think FAUX is. We cannot talk politics at all because we have no common ground from which to approach it. One friend whom I have known for 50 years - since college- very reluctantly voted for Trump because she was convinced Hillary was a criminal and would destroy the country; based on the info she had and believed was true, she had good reason to believe this. FAUX painted Hillary to be much worse than Trump.

I don't know how she feels now; I have not been able to bring myself to talk to her since the election. But it is important not to dismiss everyone who voted for him as racist, misogynist, etc. and to be aware of the powerful, insidious and extremely destructive influence of right wing media. I have learned that I cannot judge everyone who is taken in by right wing media as stupid, much as it is difficult for me to understand them. They literally live in a different world. But they are not all stupid, by any means, nor are they all sexist, racist, etc. It is critical to understand that they live in a parallel universe with alternative facts; they have very different information than we have. They may be hypnotized, but that is not the same as being stupid or racist.

Also remember, Russia was actively involved in spreading dis-info about Hillary.

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Response to Amaryllis (Reply #143)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:55 PM

165. +1 nt

 

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Response to Amaryllis (Reply #143)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:33 PM

185. Exactly the cyclical brick wall I encounter attempting to make discussion with the Faux-faithful

Faux noise has built this cult construct around dismissal of all factual knowledge, no matter how basic. Then reinforces the cult mesmerization with both veritably subliminal (the "news ticker" across the bottom unlikely to becontinually consciously interpreted by the viewer/listener has constant reinforcements of "trust fox... trust only fox... the most trusted news source..." in mutliple incarnations, and not-at-all-subtle discreditations of factual knowledge as "liberal indoctrination".
No matter that 99 percent of all accredited institutes of higher learning have agreed on certain facts: climate change. evolution. etc.
Faux and fellow fiends have a way to counter, convince the faithful to dismiss it all.
There it is. Solid as rock. I can't find a way past it. Especially in those who have mixed up some weird twist of religion with the "conservative bubble".
Jeebus would vomit. I pray to Jeebus, save me from your followers.

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Response to Amaryllis (Reply #143)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:33 AM

222. I have noticed how much the local TV newshas influence, mainley the 10 & 11 PM

 

news just before bedtime.

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Response to Amaryllis (Reply #143)

Wed May 3, 2017, 07:14 PM

340. I'm really frustrated with our campaigns for this reason though. What you say is not

a surprise to anyone. We know that is where they are getting their news. And yet television is still treated like the best medium to get the message out. For the reasons you list, it is not. It's the worst.

Look around DU. There are a lot of sig lines that have photos of billboards. Billboards get eyes. Billboards get targeted eyes.

We have lots of people who phone banked in the last election. Those same people would be very willing, I am sure, to pass out flyers after church, after a ball game, outside the ice cream store. Targeted messages for small geographic areas that will actually appeal to those "kitchen table concerns."

There are a million ways to get around this self-selection that happens on TV. Yes, they tend to be more labor intensive, but they actually reach the people we want to reach.

(Can you tell that once upon a time I worked in direct mail?)

The Russian thing, though, that's a whole nother story.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #107)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:01 AM

216. So you're saying we just didn't TALK TO THEM ENOUGH last year?? We hid our ideas, plans, and

 

history? We didn't warn them enough about Trump?

Right. Got it.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #216)

Wed May 3, 2017, 08:32 PM

346. Don't think that is what OP is saying at all. Just saying don't NOT talk to them if they are willing

to talk.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #107)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:51 PM

331. They may feel betrayed by Trump but they would vote for Pence in a heartbeat

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Response to Squinch (Reply #99)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:44 PM

160. Not really

We don't have to compromise our values, at all. We don't have to budge. Not our job.

When they tell us they think they made a mistake, we need to tell them they're not alone, that he's conned people for years and this is how he's gotten his money.

We just need to get out of the way and let them figure out how they can best work to overturn a terrible mistake in the voting booth. If they ask us for suggestions, we can suggest they call their Reps and Senators so his batshit bullshit won't get passed into law.

They don't have to become progressives or even tepid liberals overnight and probably won't. They do need to see that this isn't the first time that party has scammed them and perhaps Asshole is just the one to knock all the dust off those Republican glasses.



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Response to Squinch (Reply #99)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:19 AM

271. Thank you. That's correct. (End of discussion.)



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Response to tecelote (Reply #90)

Wed May 3, 2017, 03:45 PM

313. Fuck them.

If you don't know what you're voting for or against, then don't vote until you inform yourself. To ignorantly vote for or against someone is fucking irresponsible.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #90)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:07 PM

324. They're coming around? How? What do you see that tells you this?

I really, sincerely, want to know, particularly in light of all the polls that keep being reported, that show his followers sticking with him by a percentage in the high 90s.

HOW are they coming around? I really do want to know. Can you give some examples? Any examples? Because I haven't seen it. It's encouraging that you see it. But WHAT do you see? HOW do you know this? Please help me understand.

Friend, gotta confess: because of what I've observed of their behavior since the beginning of the campaign, especially in view of the reality they constantly seem to ignore, and the tidal waves of constant lies they resolutely seem not to care one plug nickel about, I've come to view them as about as meritorious as the material that comes out of the backside of my dog when I take her out for walks.

I would like very much NOT to feel this way about them. They're my fellow Americans and my fellow human beings. My best friend tells me I must understand them and where they're coming from, and I've tried and tried and tried and tried and tried some more. STILL trying as I write this. And I still cannot get there.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 07:53 PM

2. They need to pay attention to the news and what is happening in the world

especially if they are with kids, running a business or farm or deployed fighting for us. You are prey to the sirens call when you stay uninformed - it is no excuse.

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Response to ksoze (Reply #2)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:42 PM

57. Exactly

Oh if only we all had lives and other things to do

The people you speak of are either lazy, intellectually incurious or just plain stupid and I'm sick of people making excuses for them.

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Response to LoveMyCali (Reply #57)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:17 PM

108. That was my impression as well upon reading the OP

The Trump supporters have lives? So the rest of us don't? Bullshit.

We took the time to become informed and make the effort to stay informed. Those who choose to believe lies without bothering to verify the facts will not get a pass from me.

When Trump starts truly hitting their families and pocketbooks, they will come around.

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Response to hamsterjill (Reply #108)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:23 PM

113. That's another thing that gets me going

They "come around" when it directly effects them personally. It's never worry over a neighbor who is afraid their same-sex marriage will no longer be recognized, or a co-worker who will be financially devastated if the ACA is repealed, or a friend who is afraid their visa wil be revoked and they'll be deported. Nope, not these shining examples of "good Americans" if it doesn't hit their families or their pocketbooks they couldn't give two shits.

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Response to LoveMyCali (Reply #113)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:20 PM

180. Nailed it.

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Response to LoveMyCali (Reply #113)

Wed May 3, 2017, 06:14 AM

228. It's been like this since the dawn of the republic.

Even the Declaration of Independence referenced a "long train of abuses" that finally become intolerable and motivate people to rise up. People love the status quo, and they won't upset it until their own is threatened. It's maddening though.

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Response to LoveMyCali (Reply #113)

Wed May 3, 2017, 07:47 AM

234. +1

Exactly.

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Response to LoveMyCali (Reply #113)

Wed May 3, 2017, 10:15 AM

252. Yes, exactly.

Selfish and entitled.

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Response to LoveMyCali (Reply #113)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:05 AM

266. Great post!

Absolutely correct. Trump supporters lack any empathy for other people and react only to those stimuli that directly affect them or those in their immediate circle. It's not being ill-informed. It's being disaffected and to me, that's pretty damn heartless.

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Response to hamsterjill (Reply #108)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:34 PM

186. That's a +100.

I seriously don't get how "not following politics" is the reason these people didn't know Trump was a labor-hating, serially bankrupting third-baser who got bailed out/buoyed by either Daddy or the Saudis his whole life.

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Response to LoveMyCali (Reply #57)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:36 PM

151. Same here.

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Response to LoveMyCali (Reply #57)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:01 AM

192. ++++++++

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Response to LoveMyCali (Reply #57)

Wed May 3, 2017, 02:18 PM

305. There are many, many, millions of people

in this country who have one, two, or all three of the characteristics of being lazy, intellectually incurious, and being just plain stupid. Not an excuse, just a fact. We all know, or have known people like this. They also vote. We HAVE to find a way to communicate to these people or we'll keep getting people like Bush and Trump being in charge. I don't know how to do it and it seems no one else in our party knows either. I hope someone figures it out. Maybe it can't be done and in that case we're in a lot of trouble in the future just like we are now.

I should add that some people are just pricks and nothing can be done with them.

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Response to ksoze (Reply #2)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:27 PM

115. And Fox "News" does NOT count.

They've got to take the ice-water plunge into what they call "lamestream media." Unless they do that, they'll never learn.

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Response to ksoze (Reply #2)

Wed May 3, 2017, 09:45 AM

246. SO much "yes"

Thank you. While I empathize with and am among the many Americans who have multiple jobs to make ends meet, I still consider being an informed citizen one of those jobs. It may not carry a paycheck, but it pays me in the long run to consume and dissect multiple news media, and then to act on that informed opinion.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 07:54 PM

3. What has the "label" become?

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Response to Solly Mack (Reply #3)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:39 PM

54. Ask Fox News

Ask Rush. Right wing megaphones drown out the truth. Didn't Pelosi say recently something like "we walk the walk but don't talk it up enough"? We need to be louder advocates for ourselves and our ideas.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 07:55 PM

4. They should have paid more attention before the election

I am not disputing your claim that these are otherwise decent people (at least the ones you know), but tuning in to even one of the debates, for even a half hour, it would have been clear to them that something was wrong with his knowledge and temperament. They could have seen his bigotry and ignorance.

We're all busy people. But even a few minutes a day scanning a newspaper will get you all you need.

My question is: what was so wrong with the status quo that they were upset with? (We're clearly not talking displaced steel or coal workers). The economy was doing well. There was no mass influx of immigrants (that had already slowed dramatically) if that was their beef. And speaking of beef, what was wrong with the cattle? Where were they getting their information that things were so bad? I can only assume Fox News.

I really don't have sympathy for these folk, really, even if they are "coming around." It's too late. We have four years ahead of us of a totally messed up government, and it is going to hurt us all.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #4)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:49 PM

162. I'm with Frazzled. Every Trump voter should be ashamed of themselves.

Every Trump voter will be hurt. ...except for the Russian agents... and the billionaire class ... well at least the latter won't be hurt as much. Look at the last 117 years: Every Democratic President has left the economy better off than received; every Republican President has left it worse off. In fact, the worst combination is when the Republicans have both the Presidency and Congress. Now they have the Presidency, Congress, Supreme Court, mainstream media, almost two-thirds of the Governors and state legislators. We are in an awful place right now. 1933ish.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 07:55 PM

5. If they voted for racists trump they are a deplorable POS just like him...

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 07:57 PM

6. "These people are not bigots or sexist pigs. They are good solid Americans. "

No.. they did not analyze the candidates, do their homework and learn about what trump has actually done instead of what he was saying. They looked the other way on racism and misogyny.

They are NOT good Americans. They are lazy, uniformed and allowed this monster to take control.

I cannot understand anyone voting for trump who is a 'good person'.

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Response to nini (Reply #6)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:24 PM

33. Well said.

 

I keep telling my wife her family that voted for trump are not good people.

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Response to nini (Reply #6)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:24 PM

34. this

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Response to nini (Reply #6)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:34 PM

44. Agreed. The horrid "Grab Em" tape was everywhere, they could not have missed it.

That and other examples of his dispicable behavior and lack of character were easily known, but they voted for him anyway. Sorry, I have no interest in understanding ANY Trump voter.

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Response to nini (Reply #6)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:35 PM

46. +++ agree. they may have good hearts, but they let politics override it. That's sad.

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Response to iluvtennis (Reply #46)

Wed May 3, 2017, 05:30 PM

334. I'm sorry, but how can anyone truly have "a good heart" and still vote for that pos?

I feel personally betrayed by every person who voted for that orange horror so they can kiss my Ojibwe ass.

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Response to iluvtennis (Reply #46)

Wed May 3, 2017, 10:10 PM

348. The media they consume brainwashes/hypnotizes them. Consequently, they are in a trance and

unable to objetively evaluate the truth of what they hear.

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Response to nini (Reply #6)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:36 PM

47. Exactly

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Response to nini (Reply #6)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:36 PM

48. Agree to disagree

There are people like that, yes. But I think even larger is the fact that many of these people believe what they are told to believe by Fox News and other right-wing noisemakers. They put their faith into them hook, line and sinker. They don't analyze because in their eyes that has been done for them. They don't think because in their eyes they have been given the REAL truth and that is that in their eyes.

At the same time, they are ensconsed in their small communities where everyone tends to think the same and nobody steps outside of their comfort zone to open their eyes to other opinions.

Anyone who hasn't read Prof. Bob Altemeyer's "The Authoritarians" should really check it out. "Deer Hunting with Jesus" is another good read.

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Response to RecoveringJournalist (Reply #48)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:49 PM

65. What is in them that the racism and misogyny of fox is tolerated?

You've got to have this inside of you to not be appalled at fox.

We're not just dealing with a difference of opinion conservativs here.

I understand your point but those people still chose to not think for themselves .

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Response to nini (Reply #65)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:24 PM

114. It is herd mentality.

Sorry to say that yet it is. Fox et all are still preaching. These people will never change.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #114)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:17 PM

179. I feel they won't change either

which is why I'm done with 'em.

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Response to nini (Reply #179)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:26 PM

182. I read at Discussionist.

No matter what he does no matter how much we spend on his golf trips. No matter how many bombs we have dropped...They scream WINNING.



I am with ya nini.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #182)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:28 PM

183. I prefer smart people

That makes me an elite snob - right? LOL

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Response to nini (Reply #183)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:47 PM

190. With ya!

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Response to nini (Reply #179)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:10 AM

219. with you too nini

I'm done too. Who needs a batch of bigots in your life? Not me, that is for certain!! on all of them ...



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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #114)

Wed May 3, 2017, 01:40 AM

201. This is what I say, too.

It's a herd mentality. I wish I just read on Discussionist to understand them, I don't need that to be exposed to them, though. I actually live among them. I'm considering a GoFundMe to get me out of here! (<--joke!)

Seriously, if you're dealing with rural red state Trump voters, they're driven by a mindset of hate people not exposed to them cannot comprehend. The majority of the rural Republicans are driven by this strange mix of hate and brainwashed misconceptions.

I touched on what they're really like below: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9007892

Many of these people are not what people in insulated areas want to believe they are. I know this to be a fact, because I actually KNOW them.

However, there are discouraged Democrats in these areas who can be encouraged to come back out and vote. That's what Howard Dean did, he gave these closeted Democrats hope and lured them out to vote. I watched it in realtime when he motivated them with our Democratic message locally, and they emerged from their hiding. I saw it happen again in 2008 with Obama, but they were scared back into their shells again by the emergence of the Tea Party locally. The Tea Partyist were their neighbors, employers, pastors(!) and family members, etc. They couldn't handle the social pressure of being "out" as a Democrat and retreated again.

In my opinion, these closeted Democrats need to be energized and targeted again. Pick areas where they performed well in the past and then retreated. There's several out there. Then, we cultivate candidates locally which can be electable there on all levels of local, state and national government again.

I will say one thing here.... don't hate me for saying this, please, the local races (school board, etc.) will be moderate/conservative candidates, but the next level up will be more moderate Democrats. Once you break the trend you open doors to more open minded people, but it takes work and time in deep red regions.

I'm just offering up my personal experience here. I know no one wants a moderate/conservative person elected on a national level, least of all me. However, if it's a small local race traditionally held by deep red people, I'm willing to consider alternatives. I will say the party had better not call them progressive or liberal to appease anyone, because that would be the death of them with the closed minded people we're trying to enlighten here locally.

I'm just tossing out some ideas here, if I'm way off base, I apologize. I'm mostly active locally, and DU has been confusing to me lately. Locally we lament Hillary's loss, miss Obama deeply, and hate Trump. Here not so much. I'm treading in uncharted waters here anymore.

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Response to RecoveringJournalist (Reply #48)

Wed May 3, 2017, 08:36 AM

240. My husband used to watch Fox - out of habit.

I don't even know the hows and whys. After 9/11 we both started watching a lot of news. He has his office space and TV and he would have Fox turned on. I would watch CNN.

He quit watching Fox after the 2008 elections. It became pretty obvious to him that Fox was getting him worked up, so he quit watching it.

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Response to nini (Reply #6)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:47 PM

62. Yes.

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Response to nini (Reply #6)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:49 PM

66. Yes, OP is trying to justify people who voted for Trump BECAUSE he said racist things

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Response to nini (Reply #6)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:55 PM

76. A BIG reason why tRump voters are that way is because of lazy profit-driven media.


The media made it closer than it ever should have been by glossing over the obvious faults, defects, and flawed history of tRump.

So they could make it a horse race.

So they could increase viewership and advertising revenue.

So they could make more profit at the expense of a healthy democracy. Profit first, USA second.

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Response to nini (Reply #6)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:05 PM

96. Your loss.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #96)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:39 PM

155. Not really

I don't want to live under fascism without human rights etc.. My dad and uncles did not risk their lives in WWII so their kids would have to live like this. Now I'm supposed to not stand up to the same types that allow this to happen? No thanks


This is how that shit in Germany got started because too many people looked the other way with those types.

It's gonna be all of our loss if we still want to play nice.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #96)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:47 PM

189. I do not understand your comment to nini.

Why is it her loss?

"These people are not bigots or sexist pigs. They are good solid Americans. "

No.. they did not analyze the candidates, do their homework and learn about what trump has actually done instead of what he was saying. They looked the other way on racism and misogyny.

They are NOT good Americans. They are lazy, uniformed and allowed this monster to take control.

I cannot understand anyone voting for trump who is a 'good person'.


I myself cannot understand a nephew by marriage in a Democratic family to vote for him, yet he did. His three children have a black uncle. Also 1st cousin Irish and Japanese and 2nd cousins that are Irish, Japanese and MEXICAN. I will never understand.

So please, why is it nini's loss?

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Response to nini (Reply #6)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:22 PM

112. Point. Although -- distrust of education is familial/cultural, corporately sponsored, and why.

The only open supporter of whatever-his-name-is I know is virtually illiterate, and encouraged the habit in both his kids.

'We don't do school,' is how he puts it.

He's a Republican because he was forced to pay child support for a prior relationship, believes men should have the right to force abortions on women in such cases, and believes the Republican Party supports men's rights more. Oh, and he's a staunch Catholic. So -- just a mess, in other words. An ignorant mess. Not a bad guy, though. Sort of?

His wife is a virulent Muslim hater. Most brown people. All brown people. At the company picnics she likes to drop 'truth bombs' of the hater variety.

I struggle with my feelings about him, everyday. He's just trapped and stupid, and won't be helped.

That being said, I recced this thread just because it seemed an honest opinion.

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Response to byronius (Reply #112)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:57 PM

167. I understand

really I do.

But this trump monster threatens the livelihood of the entire planet. I worry about my grandson's life because others were either lazy or they're too hateful to do what is best for the greater good. I have drawn a line with them. They probably don't want to be around me either anymore

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Response to nini (Reply #6)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:59 PM

169. I just can't agree in total

Many of them fit your description perfectly. Unfortunately, that includes much of my extend family.

But if you in your 40s and all you have watched is Fox news, are not widely read nor travelled and do not use racial epithets which is what too much of America uses as the standard for racism, then they do not see them selves as racist. And many of them could not explain what misogyny even means since unless you take specific courses in college or read sites like DU you will never even encounter the word or its meaning and the way it affects society.

I have friends that voted for Trump are pro-choice and actually support LGBT rights. College educated but in technical fields which included almost no humanities. They are not conscious bigots and have no understanding of how racism affects us in all it's insidious ways because no one has ever taught them that. Sure as hell not in schools here in the south.

They grew up under Reagan and it is all about the belief that small government and low taxes make a good economy. They have heard that non-stop since high school. That is the reason my friends voted for Trump.

Are they lazy and uninformed and vote their own perceived self interest? Yes, but I hardly think define them as good or bad. Just lazy and uninformed and voting for their own self interest which I am sure describes many members of the Democratic party.

I think our job is to convince them that their self interest actually lies in the Democratic Party. Because it does.

Have a nice evening.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #169)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:16 PM

178. Have a nice evening too

I appreciate your view thought we see it a bit differently,

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Response to nini (Reply #6)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:06 PM

171. THIS

Even if you DON'T follow politics, I'm assuming said voters have not lived under a cultural rock for the last 35 years.

"President Donald Trump"

OK, does THAT SOUND like it'd be a good IDEA??

And I've often heard the "It's not really HIM, but it's the STATEMENT!" reasoning.

WHAT STATEMENT?? "I'm a complete DUMBFUCK"??? Congratulations, guess you won!

All his media buddies are already drumming up ratings by taking us back to the Reagan 80$, where we had to live in a constant state of abject fear that World War Armageddon was going to start any damned minute. Even then, it was a mere distraction for all the union busting, tax cutting and blue collar firing that all of his dumbshit voters seemed to be OK with. The more things stay the same . . .

Hope the impending radiation poisoning will be worth it.

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Response to nini (Reply #6)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:05 AM

193. ++++++++

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Response to nini (Reply #6)

Wed May 3, 2017, 03:29 AM

213. They know exactly what they voted for & now they have "it"

A racist pig is what they wanted and that is what they now have. Congratulations re-pigs! Enjoy your KKK/skin head/John Birch Society/David Duke batch of crooks (including Don the Con; aka tRump the evil Hump!).

They've got themselves what they may or may not have wanted -- lame duck already *quack* *quack*.

I have absolutely zero sympathy for anyone that voted for this sick freak!!

May they reap what they have sown!



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Response to nini (Reply #6)

Wed May 3, 2017, 07:52 PM

344. Thank you! Truth well told!!

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 07:57 PM

7. if they don't pay attention why do they want change ?

 

People who don't pay attention and don't have beliefs don't vote.

But these people felt there was change needed and went to vote.

And they voted for an openly bigoted candidate.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #7)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:02 PM

12. +1

Good question

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Response to JI7 (Reply #7)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:56 PM

79. They voted Republican.

Blindly. Yes.

Wrong? Yes.

Bad People? No.

Easier for you to group them together though. Go ahead, do what Fox News does. Vilify them all.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #79)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:59 PM

85. why don't you answer the question about what they thought of the attacks on hispanics

 

Women disabled and others ?

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Response to JI7 (Reply #85)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:01 PM

88. Most of them are Hispanic and Women.

This is New Mexico.

Mostly blue by the way.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #88)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:03 PM

91. all the minorities amd women who voted for trump are Bigots

 

I haven't seen any that aren't.

They usually hate some other group. Usually lgbt . And are sexist.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #91)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:04 PM

95. Your neighbors. Not mine.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #95)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:06 PM

97. my neighbors didn't vote for trump and i wouldn't excuse those who did

 

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Response to tecelote (Reply #88)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:50 PM

164. Same thing happened in Texas

A woman who supported Trump and the Republican AG of Texas just got herself deported. She thought they were going to deport "only bad people." Now she knows: she is the one who is "bad." Oh, and before you get back to Guanajuato, thanks for voting Republican!

You are correct--not intentionally evil, but yet: woefully, even willfully uninformed, which causes evil election results.

I think many here think (mistakenly) you are trying to excuse rather than merely explain. You might consider reinforcing the distinction.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 07:57 PM

8. You get no argument outta me.

I have seen posts here about a tRump voter having second thought (or maybe 1st thoughts) about what this man is doing and some of our fellows here will post some really ugly words. Personally I welcome those who regret their vote. Dumping on them is certainly not welcoming. A lot of these people were dem voters that have been chipped off the block with wedge issues; guns, abortion, taxes etal. We need to find the glue to stick them back were they belong and kicking them while down is not the answer.

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Response to TexasProgresive (Reply #8)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:23 PM

31. +1!

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Response to TexasProgresive (Reply #8)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:53 PM

73. It would be easier to accept their regrets had TRUMP NOT BECOME POTUS. NOW IT'S TOO DAMN LATE.

 

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #73)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:03 PM

92. Give up on them.

It's easier.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #73)

Wed May 3, 2017, 06:01 AM

227. That seems a bit disingenuous.

If the orange buffoon in chief had not been sworn in there would be no real reason for them to regret voting for him. It is only because he got elected that they see the folly of their votes. I am hoping that this asshole of assholes will truly be the "unity" president. That in the end he will have unified the electorate against him.

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Response to TexasProgresive (Reply #8)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:30 PM

118. They aren't down

We are.

Trump voters in my area drive big fancy new pick up trucks and porches and audis. They knew what they were doing - didn't care.

You wrote that a wedge issue is abortion? These people have Garland's Usurper, The WH, The House and the Senate. I encourage them to make it illegal then that issue goes away. They have the numbers - they should do something with it instead of sitting around saying "I was too busy". They need to do something with their power.

The Democratic party is never going to give into these people on this issue. They have their wedgie - they can pick their butts and use their power to "get their way".

Yeah I picked on them - don't care. They aren't going to read it. Too busy drinking lattes and watching reality tv.



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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #118)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:27 PM

149. + infinity

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #118)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:17 AM

196. This a million times. THEY HAVE WON. So they should go ahead and outlaw abortion. Do it.

Do. It.

Let's get this war on.

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Response to TexasProgresive (Reply #8)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:33 PM

150. So my right to own my own body has to take a back seat, as a 'wedge issue.' What are YOU going to

give up to prove you are not "kicking them while down?"

Your argument is that we need to give up our values because some Trump voters are realizing they made a terrible mistake. It's ridiculous.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #150)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:55 AM

279. Amen squinch! n/t

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Response to TexasProgresive (Reply #8)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:58 PM

168. So they are the good Germans? The ones who just wanted Germany to be great again? Are they defending

our Constitution? Are they respecting the melting pot of equality and justice that we have tried to develop and preserve?
Good people do not stand by and let others suffer so they can get ahead. This is a democracy ruled by the people and protected by the preservation of individual and civil rights. If these Trump supporters can wave away the deviations of the Trump actions then they are not being true to our country and it's ideals.

They should not be coddled but they should be shamed that they are not being American.

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Response to The Wielding Truth (Reply #168)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:57 AM

280. Excellent analogy!

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 07:58 PM

9. Okay, so they're good solid Americans.

Who don't give a flying fuck as to what's really happening around them.

And if they've never heard of the Donald's gross and crude comments about women, or how he's insulted many of our allies and praised vicious dictators, then they are willingly ignorant and there may be no hope for them. Until, of course, they lose their health care or their military retirement, and then they'll say, "OH NO! Why didn't someone TELL me???"

I keep on being reminded of the smokers whose heads are firmly in the sand about the dangers of smoking, and then are shocked and angry when the heart attack or the lung cancer or the COPD happens to them.

People really are responsible for knowing what's going on out there.

I'll say I was extremely disappointed that Hillary became our candidate. No need to go into any reasons, but I wasn't going to vote for Trump, I wasn't going to vote for a third party candidate, and I wasn't going to not vote. For years I've been angry about the Electoral College and when I lived in a red state I knew my vote didn't count. Now I'm in a blue state, but I'd vote to eliminate the EC in a heartbeat.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #9)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:25 PM

36. +1

 

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #9)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:09 PM

175. + another 1 nt

 

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:01 PM

10. Willful ignorance is not a defense.

 

Believe me, many feign ignorance when they don't want to admit they voted for a scumbag.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:01 PM

11. The facts were there!!!

They ignored the facts for whatever reason...they may be Americans, but whether they are good or solid is questionable!

They only had one reason, they voted to change the status quo...so they voted for a man who has a history of cheating, a braggart who took pride in telling us how he could walk in on a group of teenage girls in their dressing room, a man who said he could shoot someone on 42nd Avenue and his supporters wouldn't care, a man who claimed he could grab a woman by her genitals and get away with it!

And they voted to change the status quo...what a line of tripe!


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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:02 PM

13. Well, Terrific

Then why don't you tell them that it's the Democrats that are working for them while the rethugs have been trying for almost a decade to take their health insurance away? Why don't you remind them that Democrats have to clean up the mess that rethugs make? Why don't you tell them that those issues that they care about are because of Democrats?

I would love to do it, but the tRump voters I know are scary and they won't listen to anything a liberal has to say. They've been conditioned to view us as an enemy so horrendous that they have to rely on Russians and criminals to free themselves from us. That "label" that they don't like is a lie fed to them by propagandists, but they won't let go of it.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:03 PM

14. So they voted for change, and against a label?

What label would that be?

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:05 PM

15. Thank you. We can hope. nt

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:06 PM

16. Good people can be bad citizens

Law abiding and taxpaying perhaps, but very destructive by voting without having a clue.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:06 PM

17. Question....

Whatever possessed them to think that any single person, even in the Office of the President of the United States, was going to change the status quo?

How was any President going to this, as opposed to say, them carrying out a mass un-election of incumbent Reps and Senators?

How was Trump, with his past, going to be a shining example of morality, fair play and reform?

How was any President under any party banner going to do this without becoming a dictator?

I don't think your Trumpian friends really thought it through and were instead played for fools.

Tell them to stop treating friggin politicians as if they are prophets and rock stars. Hell stop treating them as if they are a friend and are looking out for you.

Politicians don't even care for you more than your own employer who will lay you off your job in a hot second if the numbers make it necessary.

Neither Bernie, nor Clinton and least of all FF45 was or is going to be the silver bullet that saves America....

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Response to Thomas Hurt (Reply #17)

Wed May 3, 2017, 07:00 AM

232. A-fricking-men!

Tell them to stop treating friggin politicians as if they are prophets and rock stars. Hell stop treating them as if they are a friend and are looking out for you.

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Response to Thomas Hurt (Reply #17)

Wed May 3, 2017, 07:40 AM

233. Trump promoted this view

That he, and he alone, would step right in and "Make America Great Again"- by repealing ACA, deporting/limiting immigrantion, canceling trade deals, and bringing back coal jobs. People whom voted for him WANTED him to do these things and foolishly believed that he would do these things. THAT'S the "change" they wanted when they voted for him.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:07 PM

18. And what, exactly, is the "direction" they think the country is going?

Last edited Tue May 2, 2017, 08:47 PM - Edit history (1)

Too many rights being handed out to minorities?

Too many women in positions of power?

Too many people dumping the make believe of religion?

If that's their problem, can't help em. In fact, fuck em.

Or, are they mad because they're getting the short end of the stick while corporations do great?

Then quit voting for fucking Republicans!

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:07 PM

19. I am trying to find the words to say that this post is completely...

 

WRONG!

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #19)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:54 PM

75. Brevity is the soul of wit. :-)

 

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:08 PM

20. So OP

 

Reads like you Are you defending the dumbing down of America. That's the reason Trump won in the first place. And Trump has appointed a Sec of Ed that will accelerate this decline.
These people will only come around when Trump's actions and/or deeds directly hurt them.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:10 PM

21. the 2% who are sorry for their vote may be good people. my personal trumpkin

 

who falls into the "just wanted change" category, is, frankly, not a very good person.
dont get me wrong, i am quite fond of this person. but he is someone who blames others for all his problems. he is a typical confirmation bias machine. never met a ct he doesnt go for. thinks the dems want to take everyone's guns away, even tho the one guns he owns is probably corroded to death.
he is completely incapable of trust. he thinks he is a good person because he has good intentions, but never follows through on them.
he is truly bitter about his own failure to live up to his potential. he had a great start in life, and fucked it up. now he is a prole, living paycheck to paycheck.
but somehow all that is not his fault.

alex jones, breitbart, et al is what he believes in. he is choosing to bury his head in the sand. and yet he votes.

people who dont have the time, the faculty, or the inclination to think should leave decisions to people who do.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:10 PM

22. I'm sorry but change just for change's sake is ignorance.

I had this argument with a lot of my union friends who loved the Orange Asshole. They, almost to a man, would've happily voted for Bernie, they really liked the things he had to say but when he didn't win the nomination they switched over to Тяцмр. Why? Because they liked the populist things he said and didn't care about the racism or sexism. They're mostly white guys who were tired of being called racist for having racist views they don't recognize as such. I was told "this is a change election, we want change". And of course I said that change for the worst is change but it isn't progress, we'll get steady progress from Secretary Clinton even if she isn't representing radical change. They didn't want to hear it and here we are.

I'm sorry but you're claiming ignorance as an excuse for these people. If you're too busy to know what the issues are or to figure out the massive difference between the two candidates then you shouldn't vote. Being informed is your duty as a voter.

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Response to NewDealProgressive (Reply #22)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:56 PM

78. So true... You need to make sure you are making a positive change and not a negative one n/t

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:11 PM

23. First you say...

That they do not pay attention to the news and what is happening in the world...because they are to busy...

They have not heard the latest news. They pay little attention to the news and what is happening in the world because they are spending time with their kids, tending cattle or deployed in the military. What they know is that they do not like the direction the country is going.


Then you say...

Believe it or not, issue by issue, they agree with Democrats. They just don't like what the label has become
.


By your own words, they do not listen to the news. So how can they be aware of the direction of this country and what is this "label" you are talking about?

Please explain.

Thank you.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #23)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:39 PM

52. Exactly. And yet they spout the latest Fox News memes

They may not have heard the latest news, but it's not because they're too busy with life things. We are too. We just can discern between news and propaganda. I've seen many of these people interviewed and they just believe what they want to believe, with their beliefs unmoved by facts to the contrary.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #23)

Wed May 3, 2017, 03:51 PM

316. Brilliant deconstruction of a foolish OP. - nt

 

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:12 PM

24. I agree with you. It's very hard to take the rage but we have to to make progress.

Heck, you're talking about my family of origin and everybody I grew up around. I might not be able to understand why on earth they fell for him but I do know they desperately want to be assured that things will be okay, that the pain they're in will end.

I could write volumes about differences in character and how people tend to formulate the reasons they do what they do, but the one thing that is most easily played upon is fear. They might not be "bigots or sexist pigs" but they are worried that what little they have will be taken away and having a villain created for them followed by the promise it'll be vanquished leads to a whole lot of speculation about who that villain might be. Minorities and women are very, VERY often the target of that speculation. And then the "hero" carefully works it.

Then there's religion. Religion, again, addresses fear. Fear of death, fear of the unknown, fear of being abandoned. If you and a whole group of others follow the absolute rules of a certain God who has tremendous power you now have a society and meaning and security, however false. It tells you how things should be and, again, who the villains are--gays, Muslims, abortionists, etc. I'm not going to shame people for that; it's one hell of a human trait or it wouldn't be so prevalent. And it's wildly vulnerable to shystering. One you've based your self identity on being led by a deity, you are going to get led.

But there's such a need for a firm kind of generosity and a lack of rage or shaming in talking to people who support him. It sounds condescending, I know, but I don't mean it that way. The firmness comes from being willing to draw lines and say "Nope, you can't discriminate against that person" but the kindness needs to come from actual respect, respect that 's been earned by hard work and many good qualities. We might not be the same but we'll kill one another if we don't figure out not to be assholes to these people.

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Response to nolabear (Reply #24)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:50 PM

69. ...

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Response to nolabear (Reply #24)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:58 PM

140. Agree. Well said.

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Response to nolabear (Reply #24)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:00 PM

142. +1

 

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Response to nolabear (Reply #24)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:10 PM

176. Fear. That's exactly it.

These people are extremely afraid.

I find it very hard to respect someone who allows fear to fill their heart with hate. Tolerating intolerance is not the solution. If we were living in 1930s Germany rather than 2010s America, would you be saying that we need to respect Hitler's supporters and treat them with kindness and generosity?

I don't think we're the ones being assholes to them. We need to stop beating ourselves up for not being likable to these people. The problem is with them, not with us. Trying to get them to like us is not going to solve the problem. At some point, we need to stand up and say, "Your views are not acceptable to me. Hate is not acceptable. You should be ashamed of holding such views." We have to stop allowing them to normalize hate and intolerance.

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Response to athena (Reply #176)

Wed May 3, 2017, 09:19 AM

243. Okay, how?

If we agree it's fear, what else would work against fear? If someone on the street is threatening people we want the police to mediate rather than blast away. We recognize they're in a heightened, irresponsible state and if you can help them calm you can come out with options. Make them attack by attacking them and everything but direct conflict is foreclosed.

I'm not advocating trying to make them like us. I don't expect that. The pull of their oppositional society is generations old. But I do think we can talk and reach some sort of better if begrudging cooperation on some things. Particularly when this falls apart.

What do you suggest as an alternative?

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Response to nolabear (Reply #243)

Wed May 3, 2017, 09:59 AM

247. I don't know, and I really would like to know.

I really want to figure out a way to deal with the one Trump supporter I know. The current situation is that I've told her I don't want to discuss politics, but the woman oozes right-wing propaganda. It comes out even when she thinks she's not talking about politics. My worry is that my failure to openly express disgust and outrage at her opinions is leading her to think that her opinions are respectable and acceptable. I think that perhaps shaming these people is the answer. They need to know that their rhetoric is disgraceful, reprehensible, and unacceptable. Supporting Trump and repeating his rhetoric should be as socially shameful as uttering the n-word. Every time we don't openly object to what these people are saying, they go away with the idea that what they're saying is reasonable and acceptable.

I don't see that anyone is attacking these people. I certainly am not attacking the Trump supporter I know, although I suspect she feels attacked because I don't agree with her. But telling someone that their opinions are reprehensible is not the same as attacking them.

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Response to athena (Reply #247)

Wed May 3, 2017, 10:42 AM

261. Take it from a pro. Shaming reinforces opinion.

I'm a therapist. Over the years I've seen and heard from people of all stripes, some of whom have thoughts and feelings I am absolutely opposed to. And there have been times when I frankly had to tell them that I couldn't work with them because they wanted help in justifying doing harm. But I have heard myriad stories of people being shamed for their inclinations and not once has it changed them. It has made people angry, guilty, isolated, avoidant, and myriad other things but it hasn't changed them.

I get how hard it is and not talking to someone can be the only way to deal with our own discomfort and guilt over not being able to create change or to work with someone whose thoughts are odious. And as I said firmly stating limits is important. But if the long term goal is to soften people's concrete ideas then being humane allows for something to change.

This is hard stuff. I'm glad WE can have the conversation!

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Response to nolabear (Reply #261)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:53 AM

278. Thank you for this thoughtful response.

Now that you've said you're a therapist, I finally see where you're coming from. Thank you for explaining that shaming people is not going to make them change. (You must be an excellent therapist because you've changed my view on this by 180 degrees with just one post.)

So compassion is the answer. You respond to people with compassion, hoping that they will momentarily feel safe from their fear with you, and that this will allow them to let go of their hate over time. And you don't feel guilty about being compassionate toward a person who holds despicable views because in the end, they are responsible for their own views.

If you don't mind explaining a bit further, how does this work in practice? Is it OK to tell a Trump supporter that you disagree with their views? Or do you have to first make them feel that you understand where they're coming from? Do you ever get to express disagreement? Suppose the Trump supporter tells you something like, "Trump is a really good guy. You'll see." -- followed by some anecdote that has already been debunked by Snopes, and then an unrelated attack against a handful of Democratic politicians that the person clearly heard on Fox or right-wing hate radio. How do you respond?

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Response to athena (Reply #278)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:41 PM

292. Oh you absolutely can and should disagree!

I'm a big believer in asking questions, but trying to understand and reach whatever common ground you can doesn't mean rolling over on anything.

Let's say a friend says he's a good guy and cites something you know is bogus. Even if it is, something in that appeals to the person. Asking what about that thing makes them happy and not arguing with their subjective experience even if it's not yours can open avenues for conversation.

Trump's a great guy. He loves women. Breitbart just said he's done more for women than Obama ever did.

Sounds like women's rights mean a lot to you. What's it been like for you as a woman in this country?

Well better than those Muslims have it. They're trying to get Sharia Law in America.

It would be awful for women who didn't want that wouldn't it? See, for me it's scary when religions we have here try to make laws that inhibit what women can do.

Oh I know where you're going. You want to restrict religious freedom here. It's not the same.

Tell me what you think should happen about that. I'm interested. And if you want to know I'll tell you what my worries are too. And I'm still curious about what you've experienced.

*****

See, you're respectfully plowing a field so you can keep having the conversation. We are naturally inclined to get as upset about words as about acts. Both parties can feel literally attacked by a conversation that really will have no immediate effect on anything. If we can overcome that while calmly insisting on being respected too (in other words there's a time to bail) we can at least plow the field. Whether a relationship is worth the work is a matter of individual preference. I have certainly stopped talking to people, but not with a parting shot. Just doesn't help.

On edit: there are people who won't give a rip about you or your feelings or opinions. Bail. It won't change.

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Response to nolabear (Reply #292)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:48 PM

294. Thank you!

That was so kind! I really appreciate it. I'm going to read and re-read your post.

I will try this. I'm not sure I'm up to it, but I will try. At the very least, I will know not to use shaming tactics any more.

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Response to athena (Reply #294)

Wed May 3, 2017, 01:29 PM

296. It's worth a try. And frankly I fail a lot.

But I believe it's the only way out. Slow and painful as it is. We can learn a lot from the Civil Rights Movement's trainings in the 60s on not confronting. Sometimes it didn't work but overall it changed a lot of minds.

Stay strong. I think we've got a lot of hope!

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Response to nolabear (Reply #292)

Wed May 3, 2017, 01:44 PM

300. +1

 

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Response to nolabear (Reply #261)

Wed May 3, 2017, 01:38 PM

298. I think this is worth its own OP, nolabear

Like you, I'm a therapist also. You are absolutely correct in what you say.

The goal is to eventually, eventually change hearts and minds. Not to degrade them.

Look at it this way (not you, nolabear, everyone else): Hard-core conservatives are just as convinced they are right. When they sling insults at me and attack my character and intellect, does that change my heart or mind ? Hell no. Of course, even if they were kind and gentle, I would not change my mind.

I totally understand the urge to vent anger and scorn. It just doesn't work.

edit to add: There are some who are totally unreachable. No need to waste valuable time and energy on them.

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Response to steve2470 (Reply #298)

Wed May 3, 2017, 01:54 PM

303. Amen. Thanks for kicking in.

There's a GREAT thing going around from The Oatmeal that illustrates something similar. If I get to a place where I'm not on the mobile between chores I'll try to OP it.

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Response to nolabear (Reply #261)

Wed May 3, 2017, 02:40 PM

309. But shaming isn't only aimed at one person; it's also to get others to see how bad the behaviour is

so that they won't be neutral. That recent poll said 96% of people who now admit voting for Trump say they'd do it again. Yes, it's going to be very hard to get them to turn away from Trump and his offering of spite and revenge.

That poll said of 2016 voters, Trump would get 43% in a vote today, and Clinton only 40%. But when they included everyone whether or not they voted in 2016, question, Hillary wins by 41% to 37%. Because those who didn't vote a few months ago can now see what a disaster Trump is.

The OP's confusing claim that Trump's voters don't pay attention to the news, but were sure that things needed to change is fairly obviously wrong, because it's illogical. The people who don't pay attention are far more likely to say "things are OK" or "what difference would it make?" and then not vote at all.

By pointing out just how awful Trump and his voters are, we paint a clear picture of what not to do, and how much they are screwing up the USA. Those who didn't vote will say "you're right, this is shit - next time I'll make sure and vote to keep the country out of the hands of bigoted morons".

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #309)

Wed May 3, 2017, 03:52 PM

317. I don't have time to address all the disagreement I have but

seems to me if you switched the sides and said the same thing it would be easier to see where what's "right" and what's "wrong" are in some cases relative. It would be great if logic was the main reason people vote, or even if the reasons were entirely conscious, but they're not. With discussion and thought people can recognize the motives and decide better what they want to do but not always.

More later if I can get back soon but I'd like to hear more about what you think.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:17 PM

25. I'm merely tolerant of their nonsense and they know it.

Same as you.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:18 PM

26. If you sleep well at night that's the most important thing

seriously no sarcasm. I could not.

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Response to Va Lefty (Reply #26)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:32 PM

42. I sleep at night because I bring them closer to the truth.

They don't hate the way so many here seem to think. They are very accepting and friendly to everyone they meet. They just feel forgotten by our government. They believed Trumps lies but are starting to feel conned.

It's the wrong time to vilify them. It's time to work with them.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #42)

Wed May 3, 2017, 03:59 PM

320. They committed a crime against America and against the norms of liberal democracy. they need to be

 

Brought before the bar if justice for their offenses. So absolutely vilified for the POS human beings they are.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:18 PM

27. I know one Trump supporter.

A Jewish (!) Trump supporter, to boot. (I can't for the life of me understand how a member of any minority group could possibly support Trump -- I have an especially hard time wrapping my mind around a Jew supporting a neo-Nazi like Trump.)

She is an extremely fearful person. (She's the type of person who thinks someone is hiding behind each corner, waiting for an opportunity to harm her.) She listens to right-wing radio all day long and thinks she is a well-informed person. I have made it clear to her that I don't wish to discuss politics with her, but even when she tries to avoid politics, her fearful and hateful philosophy seeps through in the comments she makes about the pet "issues" of the right wing, such as immigrants.

I'm sorry, but I don't see her coming around. On the contrary, each day, she seems more enamored with Trump. I don't see anything being able to overcome the fear and hatred that fill her heart and soul as long as she continues to get her information from right-wing media sources. At this point, I am considering breaking off all contact with her to avoid having to absorb all that fear and hatred.

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Response to athena (Reply #27)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:41 PM

55. THIS!!

Exactly! Many of them have had their minds poisonsed by Fox and other right-wing "news" outlets. I've encountered quite a few people I've known for years but only got back in touch with recently. It's amazing what they have become due to this crap they've been listeneing to/watching.

Quite frankly, I'm SCARED!

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:18 PM

28. I live in a rural farming and ranching community that went Trump

and I agree with you. The folks here are all not just a write-off as ignorant thugs or bigots, and many are already unhappy over the way they voted. Sure, they should have educated themselves more and paid more attention to what was REALLY going on - you'll get no argument with me there. But I don't think name calling and refusing to consider why they voted as they did is helpful to either them or we Dems as a party. "We need to stop excluding people and putting them down. We need to open up and welcome everyone interested in change for the better." This is exactly how I feel.

I'm with you, neighbor! (I live in the Four Corners about 20 miles from Farmington and the NM state line).

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Response to Mountain Mule (Reply #28)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:37 PM

49. Thank you.

It's hard to hate your neighbors. I'm surrounded by wonderful people who voted every which way.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:21 PM

29. You can't claim to not pay attention while simultaneously saying you want change.

They want nothing good for America. Their willful stupidity is burning is all, people have already died and more will die, it's not a game. This lunatic in the White House is dangerous and everyone with a brain knows it.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:22 PM

30. General direction?

This country has been going in the wrong direction since Reagan took office. Anyone that was an adult by the early 70s could sense or see the change in America. Big business greed and the shuttering of our factories in the 80s started to wipe out the Middle Class. Things made a slight comeback in the 90s but G.W. Bush finished us off. Tax cuts for the rich and the big Corporations put strains on States that then had to raise taxes to pay for education and infrastructure further hurting the working class. Job seniority, security and benefits became scarce to non-existant in most work places. Somehow all of our social safety net programs became too expensive and budget busters. The military of course could not spend money fast enough.

Change in America does not happen quickly. It has taken 35+ years for Reagans policies to come to fruition. And with all the Evangelical Republicans in Congress, things are only going to get worse. Biggest hypocrites on earth.

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Response to dugog55 (Reply #30)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:04 PM

93. EXACTLY. But the "good" people blame Obama. Gee I wonder why?! I don't buy OP's narrative

for a second. Sorry. The working people in this country have been attacked for years by globalist RIGHT WINGERS (see the entire Reagan era). Did these people pay any attention to WHEN their unions were broken? When wages froze and manufacturing was destroyed by foreign competition? (hint it was way before Obama). I find it quite unbelievable that they just realized that all of this is happening and that Obama (and I guess Hillary) was responsible.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:24 PM

32. No, these people are bigots and sexist pigs

I know some, too, including being related to some of them.

They are everything America shouldn't be -- wrapping it up in good citizenry doesn't excuse it.

And neither should you excuse it, which you are.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #32)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:39 PM

53. You know assholes.

I know my neighbors.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #53)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:10 PM

100. He knows Trump voters.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #53)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:57 PM

139. BINGO!

I know my neighbors, as well. I share in a part of their lives. These folks are not monsters from an alien planet. They suffer from a lack of a decent education - all too common in rural America. They work two or three low paid jobs just trying to get by. They don't have the time or energy to construct new paradigms for themselves. Their outlook is tragically and fatally flawed. I would like to think that mine is not. I will not tolerate misogynist/bigoted words or deeds, but I have spent the better part of my life as an educator. I am willing to reach out and show them a better way of being in this world. Hint: It's not about splitting up into two mutually exclusive armed camps. That was a huge failure the last time this country tried it. Dumbf may not know why this country had to have a Civil War, but I do. And I'd think the rest of the folks on DU would have some understanding of this also.

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Response to Mountain Mule (Reply #139)

Wed May 3, 2017, 05:47 AM

226. Well said. Thank you.

That's also been my obversation and experience in my little corner of the rural south.

Wat

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Response to tecelote (Reply #53)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:08 AM

195. If someone supports Trump saying "Grab them by the pussy", they are sexist.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:25 PM

35. Sorry I don't buy it

If they were that dead set on voting for the opposition party, did they not know there was a Republican primary where over a dozen more qualified candidates than Trump were running for President as well? This didn't have to be between Trump and Hillary. People who voted for Trump knew darn well the kind of man they were voting for and they did it anyway.

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Response to Seasider (Reply #35)

Wed May 3, 2017, 01:52 AM

205. Exactly. It also was no mystery that trump is a racist and bigot. People who voted

for him knew where he stood on those issues, and they still voted for him.

Even giving them the benefit of the doubt, and saying they voted for him based on "other" issues, that does not take away from the fact, that his racist, bigoted agenda, didn't bother them from voting for him.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:25 PM

37. I have a Trump supporter as a friend too.

The odd thing is, we are extremely similar in almost every other way. We had the exact same class schedule during school, both of us tend to be reserved, introverted and relatively intelligent. But we are on opposite ends of the political spectrum.
He's not racist, misogynistic or evil in any way. He simply grew up in a conservative family and county.
Some of these Trumpists may be horrible human beings, but there are others who simply have been taught their entire life that republicans are right, democrats are wrong. I've done my best to show him how Trump has lied and failed to live up to his promises, but it's hard to break through a lifetime of indoctrination.

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Response to gelatinous cube (Reply #37)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:42 PM

56. But, now is the time.

You are right that it is tough to "break through a lifetime of indoctrination". But, Democrats are making sense while Republicans flounder. Now is the time to push the message.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #56)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:17 PM

109. Well, he's going to be stuck with me for another 4 years

Here's hoping I can convince him in that time.

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Response to gelatinous cube (Reply #37)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:47 AM

197. Young people better understand that their forever conservative families are responsible for choosing

Profits over people. People will not be able to survive on this planet. If you're not observant enough to understand the fact over the last several years the US has broken the record for hottest year every year you should NOT be allowed to vote!

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:26 PM

38. Actually, you're wrong....and so are most people here.

 

Clinton NEVER described Trump voters as "deplorables". He described PART of the Trump voter base as "deporables." She always recognized that there were others who were unhappy about economic conditions.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:28 PM

39. what do they say about his attacks on hispanics blacks women etc ?

 

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Response to JI7 (Reply #39)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:45 PM

60. I hate Trump. Make no mistake.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #60)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:49 PM

64. why didn't you answer my question ?

 

What do they say about his attacks on those groups of people ?

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Response to JI7 (Reply #64)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:12 PM

102. You asked the same question above and I answered...

Most of them are Hispanic and Women.

This is New Mexico.

Mostly blue by the way.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #102)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:44 PM

130. That's not an answer to why they voted for him

 

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Response to JI7 (Reply #130)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:10 PM

146. My best guess, they were foolish and bought the "establishment" rhetoric?

This person is in a freaking blue state, with leftish legislation being a normal accepted thing. These people are not the average Trump voter, but rather outliers. They'd be interesting to study to see what made them believe in the "evil establishment" though. They sound like the sort that bought that until things began to get really hard core modern Republican on their asses, then they started rethinking their mistake.

I know two self avowed "Independents" in CA who said they voted for Trump over the "establishment" both are now also seeing the error in their vote. They're not at all aware, love being the coveted independent voter, and sway with the winds depending on their closest friends (at the time) opinions. They're not deep thinkers (but think they are) and are way too easily manipulated, IMO. They're also outliers and not even close to the normal Trump voter.

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Response to herding cats (Reply #146)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:44 PM

188. i don't think it makes them any different from typical trump voter. in the end they still voted for

 

an openly vile bigoted piece of shit and that's what hte issue is.

we aren't talking romney, mccain or even bush.

this was a guy who openly was a horrible person.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #188)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:54 PM

191. I read through the thread a bit more after replying here and below.

They said they always vote Republican, then also said they voted anti establishment this time, which makes zero sense. I'm inclined to agree with you here. They're just your typical Republican voter who gives not one shit for women, minoritys, this own better interest, let alone their own civil rights or those of others. It's just that they're not in an insulated state where they don't have the advantage of standing up for their vote without more pushback via media and others as they would in a red state.

My money is they'll back the next Republican to cross their path again. We shall see, of course, and there are bound to be a tiny handful of converts, as always, but the majority will drink the koolaid and move on.

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Response to herding cats (Reply #146)

Wed May 3, 2017, 01:41 AM

202. I live in in NM

I am Hispanic. Many Hispanics voted for Trump because they hate Mexicans and other Spanish -speaking immigrants. Some Hispanics hate the Mexicans because they are ashamed of their heritage. Others resent them because they "take our jobs," and many Hispanics hate Mexicans because their illegal immigration status has given carte blanche to employers in the construction industry to lower wages.

Trump's anti immigration stance is what appealed to so many Hispanics in NM. This may be why the OP won't answer your question.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #102)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:51 PM

135. Oh, this makes sense, New Mexico went for Hillary.

You live in a pocket of foolish people in a blue state. Of course they're gonna "see the error of their ways" much faster than a real red bastion! They're used to enjoying more leftist legislation and don't view the opposition as "evil" the same way Trump voters in solid red states do! These people just got caught up in a moment of insanity. Don't worry, they're still fixable. You're gonna be fine where you are.

This all makes sense now.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #64)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:16 PM

106. I can tell you what "they" say about Trump's attacks on women

Now before the entire board jumps me, let me state right now that I am a feminist and a lifelong (well, at least since I was old enough to reason) Dem. The younger women here still suffer from a lack of a good education and they often have blinders on due to the fact that they never have lived in a more sophisticated community. What they would tell me when I asked how on earth they could still support Trump despite his pussy-grabbing ways and talk, is that Bill Clinton was just as bad - after all, didn't he almost get impeached due to the Monica Lewinski thing? I know, I know. All sorts of things wrong with that way of thinking beginning with blaming Hillary for any escapades Bill might have had. But that was how they thought of it. They just take it for granted that men - especially men in power - are disrespectful of women and they just shrug their shoulders and put up with it because that's what their Moms did/do and that's what everyone seems to do. So many of these young women are so lacking in self-esteem. Beating up on them and calling them names is NOT going to make things better.

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Response to Mountain Mule (Reply #106)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:50 PM

163. Giving up on women's rights is NOT going to make things better either. Or gay rights, or the rights

of people of color. Or any of those civil rights "wedge issues" that some here on DU are so eager to toss in their rush to throw themselves at the feet of that mythical beast, the waffling Trump voter who is ripe for the picking.

"We need to be nice to them and open to them" often translates to, "We need to forget about social justice! We have more important things to attend to!"

Well, no we don't. And if those women have so little self regard that they voted for Trump, we're not going to show them how to have more self respect by taking their rights away from them.



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Response to Squinch (Reply #163)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:09 PM

174. Excuse me?

Never ever in my life have I ever advocated on giving up on women's rights or the rights of gays or the rights of the disabled or people of color. Or the rights of man, for that matter. I'm certainly not going to start now. You obviously didn't read my reply and as far as I'm concerned, you owe me an apology.

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Response to Mountain Mule (Reply #174)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:14 PM

177. No, I don't owe you an apology. I'm pointing out that this "reach across the aisle" that is

being discussed is taking place at the expense of women's rights. Pelosi, Schumer and Warren so far have come out to say, "Hey, we don't need to be sticklers on those pesky women's rights if it makes people uncomfortable. Come on over, Trump voters!"

You talk about women of low self esteem voting for Trump.

I am saying that compromising on our values, as we seem to be doing, is not the way to change those women.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #177)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:30 PM

184. I have never advocated compromising values, either

I am a woman. I am disabled. I am a lifelong democrat. I spent almost 30 years of my life as a teacher and a librarian, working with young people. I am advocating education and giving them the opportunity to look at the world from a different perspective. I advocate offering true values in place of the false. And I understand that hate is never solved by hating back. I wrote "Beating up on them and calling them names is NOT going to make things better." I stand by my words and my values. You still owe me an apology.

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Response to Mountain Mule (Reply #184)

Wed May 3, 2017, 06:50 PM

338. If you're going to take umbrage and demand apologies when people expand upon your points

here, you're going to have a lot of disappointments.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #60)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:45 PM

131. Yes, but what so they say about his attacks on those specific groups?

I live rural in a solid Trump district, and have for longer than I care to admit. These people have been my coworkers, clients, hired service people and neighbors for a very long time now. I know them, and I've watched the evolution into their becoming what they currently are now. It's been a sobering experience.

Some of them are bigots.

Some of them are racist..

Some of them are religious zealots.

Some of them are scared to lose their guns.

Some of them are misogynist.

Most of them are brainwashed, and subscribe to a herd mentality that's quite disturbing.

There are various combinations of the above as well, but none of them voted to change the status quo, unless they loosely translated that into not voting for a Democrat. Then that's exactly what they did, and they did it with a spiteful relish that should terrify any person who loves this country.

Also, some of them love to try and bait me (this is more recent, it started after Obama was nominated in 2008, and I was interviewed in the local paper as a delegate for him) into a reaction by using socially inappropriate language. Which doesn't work on me. I turn it around and tell them I feel sorry for the state of their soul, and they're in my prayers for their lapse in faith, or some other such socially acceptable local drivel.

Yes, a few apologize for the rest of them, but it's a small amount and not enough to turn the majority here. Most of those few still say they'd never vote for a Democrat. They say they consider it a "sin" but in reality it's more than likely one or more of the reasons I stated above. These people are the "basket full of deplorables" referenced. They're real, sadly I can attest to that.

The good news is the Democrats here are approaching me more and more now. The hidden (scared to admit their preference) are asking about our local meetings and beginning to come out of the closet one by one again. This happened in 2008, but then they became either complacent or discouraged again in 2010, and retreated into their safe anonymity. This time they're not high on a Dem win, but scared AF about a Trump win. Enough to begin speaking and seeking people who agree with them again. That's a good sign, and I'm encouraged by it!!

I respect people who experience a different reality, but don't act as if your reality encompasses all others, because it doesn't. I know many, many, many more people active in the Democratic Party who have collaborated my experiences over the past couple of decades. This is actually what we're trying to figure out how to fix about a certain percentage of rural America. They're messed up and really happy to be messed up, no matter the personal cost it causes them. They're true believers, the problem is it's in a lie.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:28 PM

40. TRUMP MOCKED THE HANDICAPPED

 

AND YET THEY STILL CHOSE HIM.

There, was that loud enough?

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Response to SHRED (Reply #40)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:44 PM

58. They weren't listening.

They just voted Republican like they always did.

However, they are waking up.

We can blow this by hating them or we can understand the opportunity we have.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #58)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:50 PM

67. They are the ones hating by voting for the bigot

 

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Response to tecelote (Reply #58)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:05 AM

217. "Waking up" in time to attend a Trump rally.

 

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Response to tecelote (Reply #58)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:41 AM

225. "They voted to change the status quo" "They just voted Republican like they always did"

"Believe it or not, issue by issue, they agree with Democrats. They just don't like what the label has become."

Your ideas are incoherent. You seem to use "they" while changing who you're talking about, without telling us. It makes your thread pointless. We have no idea what "opportunity" we have, because we've no idea what or who you're talking about. It seems to cover at least three distinct groups.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:29 PM

41. Can you explain what they want?

When you say, "they do not like the direction the country is going", what the hell does that even mean? Do they want the 50's back, the fantasy life of a TV sitcom? I tell you, these people are as alien to me as I must appear to them. I suspect that they themselves do not really know what it is they actually want.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:33 PM

43. I generally think you have it right, tecelote!

I've been saying all along that we have gone from Hilary saying HALF of Trump supporters are deplorables -- and she apologized for that -- to some DUers insisting that they are ALL deplorable.

That's a mighty broad brush.

Even if it's only 5 or 10 per cent who will come to realize their mistake, we shouldn't write those people off. It doesn't mean any leeway should be given to Trump's agenda. Don't yield! Continue to resist! But don't accuse every single person on the other side of being a bigot or a misogynist.

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Response to True Dough (Reply #43)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:48 PM

63. "Don't accuse every single person on the other side of being a bigot or a misogynist."

Exactly!

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Response to tecelote (Reply #63)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:55 PM

77. How to explain their voting for a bigot/misogynist?

 

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:35 PM

45. I will never have anything to do with people that stupid. nt

 

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:37 PM

50. My husband voted for Trump

We have been married for 30 years and he always votes for R presidents. (It is the Roe vs Wade thing)
However, this time we got in all out fight because of Trump's pu$$y grabbing stuff.

He rarely votes for Texas Republicans. He didn't vote for Perry. He didn't vote for Abbott. He didn't vote for Cruz. He knows how dangerous, redneck, reckless and stupid Texas Republicans are. Now he is realizing that we've got a Bozo in the WH who is Cruz, Patrick and Perry all rolled into one.

A few weeks after the inauguration, he confessed that he made a mistake and said, "Trump is doing to the country what the Republicans have done to Texas. Trump is trying to turn the USA into Texas". I couldn't help but laugh out loud. I guess he didn't figure that a redneck could roll out of NYC.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #50)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:51 PM

70. There are a lot of people like your husband.

They're coming around.

I just hope so many here don't just piss them off by being arrogant assholes.

Good people vote Republican. Better people convince them to vote Democrat.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #50)

Wed May 3, 2017, 06:49 AM

230. My parents are NJ Republicans

They were on the Jeb Bush train until that derailed.

They voted R because that's what they do, but they're both very verbally disgusted with him right now. Though I initially was angry with them, I've grown to accept that their vote was a mistake. We don't talk politics very often bc of our very different world views. (They are upper middle class country club types who haven't traveled or experienced much outside of their homogenous community. That's not my experience, as I've lived in many different places and have friends from all different backgrounds. That's a benefit of living in Brooklyn now.)

They are generally kind people who don't want people to suffer. They are aware of politics and the news, but not overly aware. They give back to their community. But, they are older, old school, Northeast Republicans who haven't tried to expand their world view or put much thought into why they believe or vote the way they do.

You know what I hear now? Much more awareness of politics. More disappointment and anger. And perhaps I feel hope that the tide is turning.

I'm not going to cut them off. I am disappointed that anybody I know and love could vote for the man who said such racist and misogynistic things. It made me sick for weeks following the election. But I'm happy to see their horror at the man they helped get into the presidency. I feel pretty confident if he were impeached, they would NOT be angry or outraged.

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Response to Dorian Gray (Reply #230)

Wed May 3, 2017, 08:28 AM

239. Many people who voted for Trump are just lifelong Republicans

They are the same people who voted for Romney. They are the same people who voted for McCain.

Although I disagree with Romney's and McCain's politics, I think they are decent human beings. Although Romney was a venture capitalist, he was a dedicated family man. McCain adopted a daughter from Bangladesh. Bush and Rove spread rumors that McCain had fathered a black child. McCain didn't stoop down to their level.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #239)

Wed May 3, 2017, 09:14 PM

347. And who cares if he did

father a child of a different race. I remember that those rumors were spread in the primaries, and I was always shocked that they went there. Terrible.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #50)

Wed May 3, 2017, 10:24 AM

254. Your husband doesn't believe a person

should not be forced to undergo a dangerous medical procedure against her will?

I'm not trying to force you into having a fight with him, but how can a man -- a man! -- who is married to a liberal woman not understand that Roe vs. Wade is about not being forced by the government to suffer, against one's will, pain and sickness for nine months, followed by a painful and dangerous medical procedure that will inevitably leave one with lasting health problems for the rest of one's life?

Does he not understand that there are some women (like myself) who would rather commit suicide than be pregnant? (I've never needed an abortion, but I used to have nightmares about being pregnant when I was still young enough to be able to get pregnant. If I'd been born in a society that forced me to have children, I would almost certainly have committed suicide.) Does he not understand that abortion is about a woman -- an adult woman with dependents and loved ones -- much more than it is about a fetus? Does he not understand that banning abortion goes against the Republican principles of small government and privacy?

My husband is a liberal, but when we first met, despite being pro-choice, he thought abortion was a bad, unpleasant thing. I've made him come around by getting him to see the issue from a woman's perspective -- i.e., what abortion rights really mean when they are not just a theoretical question but a very real one.

You have my deepest sympathy. You must really love this man to have put up with his views for so long.

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Response to athena (Reply #254)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:14 PM

349. He really is a good guy

I had fertility problems about 30 years ago. He kept having dreams about unborn babies. And we're Catholic. He's a devoted family man and everyone who knows him adores him. He is very anti-death penalty, he is very against cuts to low income families/parents/children. He is extremely pro-education. He is pro-science. He feels that if Republicans are really "pro-life" they would support babies after they were born.

But what can I say, I am not leaving my husband, devoted father of our 3 grown kids and grandfather over this. Can't have everything.

I actually dumped my other fiance for him. My ex-fiance was a rich Armenian doctor. (I'm Armenian and I'm sure Aram, a surgeon, is probably supportive of abortion, but Aram also told me that he insisted on playing football for 3 hours every night. He also had the annoying habit of walking in front of me.) My husband is a Mexican from a very poor family. He was accepted into medical school, but couldn't afford to go. Instead he became a public school teacher and earned only $7,000/year. He wanted to work with disadvantaged kids. He has been working with them for over 35 years.

He was really stupid to vote for Trump. He found Trump repulsive and was going to vote for Gary Johnson. At the last minute, he changed his mind.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #349)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:32 PM

350. I think some people just assume that all women love and want children.

The fact that some women might not love children and might not want to devote their lives to bearing and raising children scares the daylights out of many men and women. It seems unnatural to them. They think that if a woman is forced to bear a child, she will end up loving the child in spite of herself. Unfortunately, that's not the way things work. Some women (and men) are simply incapable of love, and if they have children, their children end up living lives of misery -- unless they're lucky, in which case they need decades of therapy to recover from the lasting pain of childhood neglect. (Don't ask me how I know this.)

I wasn't suggesting that you leave your husband. It sounds like he's misguided about some things, but no one is perfect. He's right about other things. And you're with someone you love. That is a precious thing.

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Response to athena (Reply #350)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:40 PM

351. Thx..



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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:38 PM

51. Are you saying they never watched TV -- even Fox? Or listened to the radio?

Because if they had, they couldn't have missed all the HATE messages DT was constantly spouting off.

And they just didn't care. Worse, some of them agreed.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #51)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:11 PM

101. It's quie possible they never watch any news, or ONLY watch local. My husband never watches any

National News, only local to hear the weather report. He does hear some news about The Con from me but if I wasn't here or never mention any of the ridiculous things the Con has said & done, he wouldn't know anything about politics. He always votes for the Dems, even though we live n Ga. (We're from Pa.)

This "We need someone completely different" complaint has been around for decades! It's just that this is the first time we ever had someone REALLY DIFFRENT on the ballot. I can understand why a lot of ex Union workers who dream of the days they earned a decent wage were desperately hoping this NEW candidate really understood their situation and would finally create good paying jobs in the US. You & I recognized the Con was conning people with all his lies, but desperation may times prevents people from thinking logically. I feel very sad for them when they finally realize what their "HOPE" was all BS.

I realize that's not all Con voters, but it is most of the ones who used to vote Dem.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:45 PM

59. NOBODY who voted for Trump had America's best interest in mind.

NOBODY!! Trump is a mentally ill self admitted sexual predator who now has his finger on the Button. Shame on ALL Trump Voters.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:47 PM

61. The key phrase is everyone interested in change for the better.

In my opinion MOST trump supporters hatred for the "left" "liberals" been ingrained so firmly in their brain facts no longer matter . Even if it is something they agree with if put forth by the "socialist" democratic party they will not support it. This has been demonstrated many times. They are not interested sorry.

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Response to kacekwl (Reply #61)

Wed May 3, 2017, 03:57 AM

214. What you said. We know some. Can only be acquainted in a limited way.

One's a newish neighbor. She starts a conversation from time to time. I go, uh-oh, here we go. I go easy 'cause she had a major tragedy two years ago. Last year--Hillary will get us into WWIII. I said T***p said obscene demeaning stuff about females. She said locker room talk. Couple months ago--do I see what mean things people are saying about T***p. This lady is a faithful church goer. Her husband was a minister for 45 years. These people get revved up at church! A lot of 'men of God' preach politics from the pulpit unabashedly without reservation. Someone else we know is a good 'christian' boy. Sometimes you work with these people. If someone is honestly wanting discourse about politics and we can have a reasonable discussion, I may indulge. But don't shove your crap down my throat or I'll cram my ideology down yours. And then it's finito. MB for the relationship. One so-called friend sent me a bullshit email about getting prayer back in school or some such, and scrolling down, a comment on when Melonya Drumpf opened a FLA rally with the Lord's Prayer. That did it. I msg'd him back saying if he hasn't anything relevant or pertinent to say, I'M NOT INTERESTED. "Feeling better are ya? Why aren't you asleep at this late hour sending me this <hogwash>." He texted my husband the next day and told him I was 'nasty' to him. Thanx, I'll wear that proudly. You should have been witness to the vile revolting things he said and emailed us re: My President Obama for eight years. I really lost it this time and particularly don't give a flyin' crap about my behavior. That's how I deal.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:50 PM

68. Those aren't the Trumpers I know. My family members are Trumpers...

as are many in the area where I am staying now.

No, they don't keep up with the news. They are busy w/kids, it's true (some of 'em). But others just aren't political or watch the news, ever. They are not educated and don't seem to want to educate themselves. They get partisan emails (the fake news circulations), and they send each other those stories via Facebook.

Facebook is Yuge with the Trumpers I know.

Some are, in fact, bigots & misogynists, even though they may not call themselves that.

They DID vote specifically for Trump. Because he's a billionaire businessman, he's against the EPA (and "them other libral things", he's against illegal immigration, he's against Washington, he's for bringing jobs back to the U.S., he's going to repeal NAFTA, he's against NATO and the U.N., he's against letting those Muslim refugees in. At least two of my relatives think there is a secret plan for either NATO or the U.N. to come into America and kill Americans in the street.

He's pro-gun. The Trumpers here are big on guns and the ability to take their guns anywhere and everywhere.

The only pause I've heard secondhand about one or two of them is....they didn't like the Syria bombing. They didn't vote for him to get us into a war and start "messing around in other countries' affairs."

Some are on Social Security & Medicare, so I assume they think Trump won't allow those to be cut (they would be wrong about that).

They live in their own little worlds, like Trump lives in his. They never watch the Morning Joe show or MSNBC or CNN (some refer to that as Clinton Network). They believe what Trump says. He said Obama wiretapped him, so Obama wiretapped him. It's that simple. They are convinced everything anyone else says are lies, and it's Trump who is "telling it like it is."

And above all things, they HATED the Clintons. And they HATED Obama (he's a Muslim, you know - according to them). Not sure why. I try not to talk politics with them.

The glimmer of hope: They do NOT want to do anything with or for any other country. "America First." If Trump persists with that, without it being related to the issues they voted for him for, they will not be happy.
Also, it's possible some of them are on Obamacare and don't understand what can happen to their insurance. If their insurance becomes a problem, they will not be happy. And believe me, they ALL have pre-existing conditions.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:51 PM

71. +1 You have a sober calm assessment of the state of mind of many Trump voters. . . nt

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:52 PM

72. "...they do not like the direction the country is going." And what way, under Obama, would that be?

 

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #72)

Wed May 3, 2017, 10:35 AM

258. They hated that blacks, Muslims, Jews, Hispanics , women, and glbtq people were treated with dignity

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:54 PM

74. I sadly agree

To lump all Trump voters in the same pile is to completely ignore reality.

Some voted for him ONLY because he was the Republican.

Some voted for him ONLY because they were swayed by the opinions of others in their small homogeneous communities.

Some voted for him ONLY because they believed what the right-wing media told them.

Some voted for him ONLY because he was not Hillary.

Some voted for him ONLY because they wanted change.

Some voted for him ONLY because they wanted to anger the Democrats - whom they perceive as the enemy.

This is what we need to understand and deal with if we want things to improve.

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Response to RecoveringJournalist (Reply #74)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:59 PM

83. FTS. Pardon my French. I give NO QUARTER to Republicans, whatever the hell their "ONLY" is.

 

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #83)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:13 PM

103. Ok

I'm sorry you feel that way. I can't stand many of them either. But I don't lump them all in one basket.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #83)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:45 PM

161. You can do that while striving to understand their mindset at the same time. . . . nt

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #161)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:22 AM

220. Intelligent people already get the "mindset" of the ignorant. They aren't tough nuts to

 

crack, you know.

In this case, they liked what they saw in Trump:

Not a woman, but a Rich White Man (an RWM).

Not a Black, but an RWM.

Not a "policy wonk," but an RWM using elementary-school language.

Not a proponent of equality, but an RWM who let them know he, too, didn't care for Minority groups.

Not a politician, but an RWM TV star!

Not a candidate who had plans for all Americans, but an RWM businessman who would "bring back" jobs from the past JUST for THEM!

IOW, they voted for reasons of misogyny, racism, greed, ignorance, and fantasy.

Now you tell me how, in 2017 and after all of American history, you would propose to change the above "mindset."



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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #220)

Wed May 3, 2017, 06:55 AM

231. Intelligent people realize it's not that simple. . . . nt

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #231)

Wed May 3, 2017, 03:47 PM

314. Do you think a majority of Trump voters harbor reactionary views ?

And why do we absolve Americans of responsibility for voting for Trump when we wouldn't absolve voters in other countries for voting for similarly odious candidates like Vladimir Putin and Rodrigo Duterte ?


I am united to others by ideals and not by soil and blood.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #314)

Wed May 3, 2017, 03:53 PM

318. More or less, but, again, it is not that simple. . . nt

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #318)

Wed May 3, 2017, 03:59 PM

321. I elaborated...

I can no easier give a pass to a "good American" than I could have given a pass to a "good German."


BTW, you are one of my favorite posters. I just believe strongly absolving Trump voters of responsibility robs them of agency. They knew exactly what they were doing.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #321)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:01 PM

322. You edited it after I had seen it / began composing my reply and before I hit Post Reply. . .nt

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #322)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:06 PM

323. Sorry about that. Please check both my responses.

Would you agree the argument that Trump voters are salt of the earth types who just happen to be misguided or ill informed is simplistic too...

I watching Judgment at Nuremberg for the first time after the Trump election. Spencer Tracy's character was trying to find out what the Germans thought. He spoke to some Germans who were maintaining the home where he was staying. With a little prodding the couple sheepishly said "Hitler did some good things." I see a lot of that in Trump voters.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #323)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:15 PM

326. Ships in the night happen from time to time. Posted #325 to one response.


I often edit posts one or more times after initial posting because, despite proofreading in the Preview, I don't stop thinking about what I have written and about what others have written.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #323)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:25 PM

328. I can certainly agree that most arguments (including that one and many of mine) are simplistic.


Would you agree the argument that Trump voters are salt of the earth types who just happen to be misguided or ill informed is simplistic too...


Many are salt of the earth types, many are not.
Many were misguided, many were not.
Many were ill informed, many were well informed.

{Nobody take the next sentence out of context:} The fact is that Hitler did some good things. That does not excuse or absolve him of the many evil and bad things he did. Nor does it absolve people from supporting him after it was reasonably clear who he was and what he was doing. (Say about 1930, but certainly by some point in 1933 before the final election vote that came before the Enabling Act.) For example, Hitler built a system of national highways just like Eisenhower did.

{Insert cartoon of wolf billboard with one sheep in front saying to another "He tells it like it is".}

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #321)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:33 PM

330. Thanks for your kind words.


All tRump voters (99.7 % ?) knew they were casting a vote for tRump. I agree, can't rob them of agency. However, ...

People can be good Americans / Germans and make a horrible regrettable mistake at the voting booth. They are not "absolved" but there are good American tRump voters for whom it would be a mistake to beat up verbally / berate / emotionally abuse / drive away when they begin to see the light.

Unfortunately many of the people voting for tRump did not make a "mistake" but made a willful decision that greatly devalues their credibility as "good Americans". In many cases it was hypocritical (ex. "religious" (ex. evangelical) christians voting for the pussy-grabber) or power hunger (corporatists, uber-capitalists, and Uber-capitalists) or blindly single issue (abortion, etc.) ... we could go on but don't need to.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #314)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:13 PM

325. The edited body of your post makes same confusion as another poster.

There is a difference between "understanding" and "absolving" that you and another poster have missed.

Let me phrase in a very clear way:

1) Everyone is responsible for their vote. Nobody is absolved of that responsibility.

1b) tRump is as odious as Putin and Duterte because not only is he an unfeeling sociopath, but he is willfully ignorant of many important things and unwilling to learn / study.

2) It is important, more than important, necessary that we understand tRump voters.
Sun Tzu "The Art of War", III.18: " If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."


It is possible, necessary in fact, to do both at the same time: hold the voters responsible and understand them. But the ways of holding them responsible do not include beating them up verbally / emotionally when they begin to see the light and begin to understand the things we know about tRump.

I too am more united by ideals than by patriotism. The US Constitution is a truly remarkable document. The progressive future we envisage that is an outgrowth of extending rights and implementing true education and scientific knowledge is a future that unites us and propels us forward. Yes we can.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:57 PM

80. Counterpoint

 

I think people misunderstand something about Trump's base. As someone who lives in Trump country I can tell you that to most of them, it won't matter if he keeps his promises because they do not care.

They don't care that coal and big manufacturing plants that employed high school dropouts ain't coming back. They don't care how much money Trump wastes on golf trips or how he uses the office to enrich himself. They don't care if he helps them or not.

What they care about is revenge. They're mad that the world is changing. Coal has been dying slowly since before the Great Depression and it's going to keep doing that. Trump can only delay the inevitable. Manufacturing, absent a law that bans automation, is only going to become more automated. The days where one or two plants can employ entire towns are gone. But there's no desire to adapt. So instead they blame, in no particular order: Minorities, LGBT people, feminists, non-Christians, the disabled, college students, Hollywood, and anyone who lives in a major city. As long as Trump screws THOSE people, all else is irrelevant.

Look at how many people said things to the effect of "I know Trump is incompetent but I'll vote for him to piss off the SJWs." It's not about if he can help them. It's about if he can screw over those they don't like.

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Response to NCDem777 (Reply #80)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:55 PM

137. Great post. This is what I see too.

And welcome to DU!

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Response to Squinch (Reply #137)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:00 PM

170. On another point

 

I hear so many people from rural areas squawking and complaining about how their infrastructure is something out of the Third World. Much ink was spilled about poor downtrodden Appalachia. But here's the thing: Progressives in those areas have been trying to get their infrastructure fixed for decades long before Trump was known for anything besides mutilating the NYC skyline. But every time they tried, they got shouted down by the Infowars conspiracy brigades that think ANY public investment (outside of high school football) is part of some grand plan to herd people into FEMA camps or some other junk, the anti-tax whiners, and the people who are opposed to the existence of government in general. Every single time. That's why their infrastructure is crap. Rural America's chickens have come home to roost. You can't neglect your infrastructure for 60 years because you want to keep your precious taxes low and expect it to remain in good shape.

Maybe they need a good kicking while they're down. Maybe we've let them blame the Federal government for problems that they themselves created for too long.

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Response to NCDem777 (Reply #170)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:08 PM

172. How did we get here? How does someone look at their crumbling bridge and not realize that they

need to pay taxes to fix it?

In my county, the County Executive runs on a platform of not having raised taxes in years. But we have 5 unions that haven't had a contract in 6 years, which means we have just been living on credit and a huge bill is now coming due. And he has closed most of the county recreation facilities, which has had a real impact on the quality of life. It's very sad to see.

I am hoping that someday we look back and realize that the Trump presidency was the era when dumbass Americans woke up to their own dumbassery.

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Response to NCDem777 (Reply #80)

Wed May 3, 2017, 01:00 AM

199. This makes me wish I could rec a post. I, too, live among them, and know exactly what you mean.

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Response to NCDem777 (Reply #80)

Wed May 3, 2017, 02:59 AM

212. I experience the same from trump voters, as I say in my response see 211.

Revenge. They are mad. They want others to pay and want a revolution if they feel it will help-and believe our will help trump.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:58 PM

81. Sorry but this is the biggest pile of shit that I have seen shoveled here in the past year.

A core Trump supporter will never change it's color (many shades of white) , and the other one's are just to damn stupid to know what's going on.

Anyone with any sense at all that had access to a tv or radio or a newspaper could see what was going on (TRUMP WAS VERY CLEAR IN HIS MESSAGE).

I could go on and on but I am stopping here (my blood pressure is high enough).

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Response to William769 (Reply #81)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:00 PM

87. Preach!

 

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Response to William769 (Reply #81)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:18 PM

110. Right on William

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Response to William769 (Reply #81)

Wed May 3, 2017, 08:17 PM

345. Amen to that!!

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:59 PM

82. What does that look like? What does it look like when we "stop excluding people and putting them

down?"

What does it look like when we "open up and welcome everyone interested in change for the better?"

Seriously, because I don't know what that means.

Does it look like these latest attacks we've been seeing from the left in which we are told that we need to back off a woman's right to own her own body so we can be more "inclusive?"

Does it mean that we don't acknowledge that their vote - a vote that from your description seems to have been randomly bestowed - is likely to bring disaster raining down on all our heads?

Does it mean we pretend that they didn't know they were voting for a sexist and racist pig, that we just let that slide?

Does it mean that we disavow the label that offered one of the best candidates in this country's history because "they don't like what the label has become?"

How exactly is it that WE need to change so these people won't have to take responsibility for the disaster they have brought upon themselves and us?

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 08:59 PM

84. Explain this to me

How the fuck could anyone have missed the Hillary commercial with tRump mocking the disabled reporter and women?

Not fucking possible! No fucking way! No excuse!

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:00 PM

86. Maybe you could poll these friends and find out the direction they want the US to head..

Change for change's sake!!!...why not vote Green Party or Peace and Freedom Party, then?

Please let us know their consensus....

Tikki

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Response to Tikki (Reply #86)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:04 PM

94. Yes exactly. Because a booming economy (saved by Obama from a historic disaster),

increasing rights for women, people of color and the LGBT community, great relations with our allies, balanced relationships with those who often oppose us, and respect from all world leaders "wasn't the direction they wanted the US to head."

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:01 PM

89. Basically, you assert that one must be 'labeled' D or R in order to exercise their right to vote..

Which is clearly not the case...

You also indicated that these newly disenchanted 45 supporters voted for him less than 200 days ago because they didn't like where the country was headed.....
this being a direction pointed toward continued participation in a global market...
Toward expanding and strengthening Individual rights ....
Toward welcoming immigrants and refugees... toward increasing citizenship opportunities for those who lack documentation....
Toward respecting everyone
regardless of similarities or differences in
beliefs, origins, languages, physical appearances, reproductive choices, gender identity and sexual orientation .....


But that issue by issue they are 'coming around '?

What this translates to is
Issue by Issue...
45 has failed to satisfy their desire for 'changes in direction'
And they now realize that he has no intention of satisfying their desire.....
which now means they can no longer use the promise of directional change
to justify his behaviors

Fine.
In the next election they can vote for someone else..
No problem.

The idea that well
they would be democrats but you know they just dont like what the label stands for ...

So ummmm like maybe Dems could like accommodate these really busy disenchanted 45 voters....
you know by cleaning up that nasty Dem Label's reputation and
like you know maybe
Just changing the platform to one that is acceptable to these nice people
who fucked the whole world over by voting for 45.....
You know...
the Dem label would be like totally appealing to them if it represented like
A little bit of racism...
and a little xenophobia...
and definitely more misogynistic tolerance

Maybe you could accommodate their White Nationalist friends too...

I mean as long as the Dem label like said
ok not totally the best race ever...
but for sure better than the others...
Then they would join too!!!

Please.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:08 PM

98. One of the primary responsibilities of being a US Citizen is to be informed about the issues

that face your community and country.

Don't tell me these people don't walk around with a damned smart phone in their hands looking at Facebook continually! They saw the news--but only the right wing nut bull shit.

Voting for an ignorant, inexperienced, failed business man to be the leader of our nation was irresponsible.

The Trump voters I know all heard the dog whistles about race and that's why they voted for him. So yes, most of them are racist sexist pigs. One of my stupid relatives posted a picture of Trump with four black people today (one of them was Omarosa) --the caption said to like this post if you think DT is not a racist. FFS!!

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:13 PM

104. By the time Trumps done there won't be enough of the status quo to recognize...

they will feel the pain.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:13 PM

105. They're ignorant because they're generally incurious. And, sad to say,

too many of them can't accept racial and gender equality.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:22 PM

111. I know plenty of them too. I hate them more than I hate trump

Bigots...racists...sexist... ignorant buffoons..Check..check...check and check

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Response to amuse bouche (Reply #111)

Wed May 3, 2017, 10:05 AM

249. Exactly. They don't have to be ALL of those things...

but they have to be at least one. Intelligent solid Americans would not vote for an out of touch tv personality with no political experience whatsoever.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:29 PM

117. Good. Solid. Americans. Then what the fuck are we?

They're just good solid Americans who picked the racist, pussy grabber over the most qualified woman in US History to run for office.
Sure.
Lotta bullshit there due to all those cattle.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:31 PM

119. Hey I get what you're saying

They're good Germans.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:35 PM

120. I know this is going to be unpopular but I am friends with and I understand many Trump supporters.

"They pay little attention to the news and what is happening in the world because they are spending time with their kids, tending cattle or deployed in the military. What they know is that they do not like the direction the country is going."

I hear what you're saying--and understand that people get busy with their jobs, their lives/family and with living and sometimes miss things, and that not all tRumputin voters are racists--but the approach of just voting to "blow things up" is ridiculous just because they don't like the way they think the country's going. At SOME point you have to like a tub, stand on your OWN bottom. Read, study the issues. LOOK at who people ARE. Learn to vote in their own best interest. tRumputin have proven with that crazy tax cut that he ONLY cares about corporations, billionaires and the uber-wealthy.

Look at what you have in tRumputin. I know these people you know say that they grt busy with life in many forms, but at some point you have to READ, open your eyes, listen and THINK. Did these folks not take a GOOD, long listen to tRumputin or read up on him? He said amongst other things that the Federal Minimum wage @ $7.25 is too high. TOO HIGH?! Said that maybe we didn't need a federal minimum wage. That alone would have tipped me off as to how this guy was thinking about me as a worker busting my hump for that low of a wage when inflation is going through the roof. Those folks don't work? They budget don't they? They eat I know, and food is damn expensive and now gas is going up. He IS a failed business man who didn't pay for work done by contractors etc., and who may or may not pay taxes. We don't know because he wont release his federal income taxes. What's he hiding? He made fun of people like the disabled reporter and he continues to call Liz Warren Pocahontas which is RACIST. Good and solid Americans don't tolerate racism like that, do they? He has Nazis in his cabinet of deplorables like bannon. I think that fraud Gorka is leaving to take another job in his cabinet of deplorables. tRumputin acts more like a 10 year old than a soon to be 71 year old, and I know many 10 year olds who are far more mature than that clown is. He incited violence and mayhem at his rallies, he's a pathological liar. Lies about the news being FAKE if it doesn't fit HIS narrative or if it's not to his liking or if the news is true about him and not positive. He continues to show that he doesn't know s**t from Shinola yesterday, by saying that Andrew Jackson had a big heart, and that Jackson could have ended slavery. Jackson died owning slaves 16 years before the Civil War, and from all I've read about him he had no intention of ending slavery or expansion of it. Jackson was no friend of Native Americans either, and my late father was a Native American. Jackson's nick was Indian-Killer, so I have no love for that POS, and hope he's rotting and burning in hell. Big heart my ass. tRumputin's as dumb as a bag of hammers (Sorry hammers) who never bothered to actually learn anything.

tRumputin is a self-described pussy grabber. A sexual molester/harasser who walked into a room full of semi and half-nude pageant contestants and who recently defended Bill O'Reilly, and we KNOW all about his buddy Mr. Luffa Sponge. And finally, the man praises putin, and other authoritarian, murderous, dictating strong men. I'm sorry, but if you couldn't pick up what kind of person that asshole was during the GOP primaries and during the GE, then ....

Finally, I know you said some of your friends are already coming around, but are there some who think that tRumputn's administration to this point is doing well? He drained the swamp into his cabinet. He wants to repeal and replace Obama Cares with Don't Give A Damn health care. Then you have Old man river Wilbur Ross Making funnies when talking about that air strike in Syria in which innocent folks were killed calling it entertainment with their desert.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:38 PM

121. I'm friends with several Trump supporters...

But i don't understand their choice

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:38 PM

122. Sorry, I'm not buying any of this either. . .

Did they not hear of the numerous women who accused him of sexual assault/abuse? Did they not see him mock the disabled reporter? Did they not hear of his racist plans to build a wall and what he said about Mexicans? Did they not hear about his comments on grabbing women's genitals? Did they not hear of the fraud he committed with Trump University? Did they not know that POC were going to vote overwhelmingly for Hillary?

They have radios/TVs. They knew of these things and more. They just didn't care enough about the vulnerable in this society.

You just can't sugarcoat that.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:39 PM

123. To every dumb fuck aged 18 to 88 who voted for Trump: KISS MY ASS.

And no, they're not coming around. 95% have repeatedly said they will vote for him again.

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #123)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:40 PM

125. Precisely. n/t

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:39 PM

124. WaPo: Only 3% of Trump voters regret their vote

You're gonna need paint stripper and a sharp scraper to peel away maybe ONE #45 voter.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/03/22/how-many-trump-voters-really-regret-their-votes/
New poll: only 3% of Trump voters regret their vote
By Eric Plutzer, Michael Berkman
March 22, 2017
<snip>
In contrast, polls seem to suggest that the 45th president enjoys historically high approval ratings among members of his party. Other journalists report continuing enthusiasm from the small towns that delivered his strongest electoral support.
<snip>



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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:41 PM

126. if they don't pay attention how do they know which way the country is going...

what bullshit

don't take directions from the guy in the back of the pick-up

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:41 PM

127. Be realistic about this ...

Nobody forced them to vote for Trump, and nobody is standing in their way of finding some brain cells and voting against him in the future.
I always though they were either racists, misogynists, fascists, or just fucking closet Republicans looking for an excuse to vote for this clown who would be working at the circus if he wasn't born rich and had a decent bone in his body.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:42 PM

128. While I applaud your defense ...

... of these people and your efforts to understand them, the fact is that there is no excuse for being ill-informed, and basing one's vote on - well, on exactly what?

The oft-used excuse - "I wanted to change the status quo" - is meaningless. Change from what exactly? Do they want more gov't involvement in their daily lives, or less? Do they want more funding for education, or less? Do they want affordable healthcare, or a return to those with pre-existing conditions fending for themselves because they can't be insured? Do they want a more aggressive foreign policy, or one based more on diplomacy than military might?

Do they know what they want - or is it a matter of "as long as it's change, for better or worse, I'm good with that."

In this day and age, there is no excuse for not knowing what candidates stand for, and what they plan to do if elected. We are well past the days when candidates traveled the country by train, and made speeches at whistle-stops, hoping their "message" would be passed along. We have 24/7 TV coverage, radio, newspapers, blogs, and the internet. It literally only takes minutes a day to keep one's self apprised of what's going on politically, especially during campaign season.

No offense to those who are "spending time with their kids and tending cattle", but exactly what do they think people living in large cities do all day? They may not be "tending cattle" or plowing the lower 40 to plant potatoes - but they work hard and long each day, often having to commute for hours to get the kids to school or daycare and then on to the office, then be home in time to shop for groceries, do the laundry, cook dinner, help the kids with homework, etc.

I'm REALLY tired of the "I'm too busy to keep up with the world around me" excuse. If you can't be bothered to find out what's going on, then stay home and DON'T VOTE if your vote is based on non-information, or some crackpot idea that you "want change", but can't figure out what change it is you actually want.

It only took a few soundbytes from Trump to demonstrate who he is and what he stands for. One didn't need to be glued to the TV or internet 24/7 in order to KNOW he was a bigoted, racist idiot who doesn't have the intellectual capacity to put a coherent sentence together. And yet the "too busy tending cattle" folks came out to vote for him anyway.

Stupid is as stupid votes. I have no sympathy for those who voted for Trump - those people wearing "MAGA" hats with "made in China" labels who somehow thought he was the champion of those whose jobs he himself has outsourced. I have no sympathy for those who voted for a man who denigrates women, or openly mocks the disabled. I have no sympathy for those who proudly voted for someone who they now claim they really didn't know anything about.

I raised two kids, pretty much on my own. It wasn't easy, and we went through some lean times financially. There were times when I was working 80 hours a week just to keep on top of the bills - and yet I somehow managed to keep abreast of what was going on politically, and to be apprised of who was running for office and where they stood on the issues.

Sorry for saying so, but the "I had NO idea what I was actually voting for" excuse is bullshit.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #128)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:46 PM

132. +1

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #128)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:11 AM

269. Yes! This

Thanks, Nance.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:44 PM

129. That is not my experience with the trump voters I know

Most are fairly well educated and have enough money to live nicely. They pay attention to the news. They do not agree with Democrats unless a Republican says it.

Glad to hear your friends are different. I've totally given up on mine and know they will never vote for a Democrat unless hell freezes over.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:50 PM

133. The Trump supporters that I know are puritan racist Christians who believe God gave us Donald Trump.

i/o/w very disturbed people. I really don't want these dogmatic doctrinaire nutjobs anywhere near the Democratic Party.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:51 PM

134. If you pull the lever for an open bigot, all bets are off...w/me

And I strongly believe that each and everyone of them that did, knew it and mostly agreed (s) . There are no more excuses that pass the laugh test.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:54 PM

136. It's the only way I can deal with my family.

Except for my wife's parents, the rest of her family really is clueless. They really, honestly don't know what is going on in the world. They nothing about Trump's golf trips or man-love with Putin, because what very little news they get is either the 1/2 local news at dinner time, or they watch Fox. They are good people who simply do not have a freakin' clue what is going on...the way it is designed to be.

Thanks for the post.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:56 PM

138. GREAT post.

 

I have a *lot* of friends who voted Trump. I disagree with them on a ton of things, and sometimes we have really good discussions. I had a nice chat about why requiring ID to vote hurts more than it helps. I got one guy to turn around a little on his casual racism when we talked about the guys he served with, who died alongside him, and how disrespectful he was being to brothers in arms when he used language carelessly. I may not be able to get them to see things my way, but I can add some color and shading to the way they do, and maybe give them more to consider the next time a situation occurs.

Sometimes I just cant get through. These people have been indoctrinated their entire lives by their families, their coworkers, by simple majority in the location we're in. "Right wing" is normal, and "those libruls" are BAD here. Period. But I have been amazed at who comes up to me alone in the break room and shares a moment of conversion, a lapse in faith in the GOP.

Someone up thread asked what this means, what can we do ? I think you are right on point about NOW being the time to reach those who can be reached. For the last eight years, they took it on faith that Obama was bad, Dems were bad, libruls were bad, and that if we could just get some GOPs in there things would somehow be better. They arent policy wonks. They'd rather watch sitcoms than the news. They get news from Fox and Fakebook. In their bubble, this has been the reality for years - that damned Obama was running things into the ground, and getting some Pubs in would finally make things better.

Now, they have EVERYTHING they have hoped for for years. They have Trump ("he tells it like it is !", they have a GOP House and Senate. The adults are in charge!

They are losing their healthcare. They are losing their tax breaks. They lost job opportunities thanks to the government hiring freeze. They are seeing friends and family members directly effected by the REAL policies of the GOP. They are seeing a pussy-grabbing, "i'd punch him so hard" pseudo Tough-Guy President pull a 180 on the policies he promised them. They are *BEGINNING* to see the Wizard behind the curtain, and they have spent eight years walking their own yellow brick road with full trust that he would give them back their hearts and brains.

YES, we can reach a LOT of Trump voters now if we don't write them off as unreachable. If we don't insult. If we listen and try to understand without making them feel attacked. If we find common ground, and point out, gently, that the man behind the curtain was a lie, it was all a lie, always.

Some of my friends are embarrassed. Some now understand that they were used, that they got played by Fakebook/Putin. Some aren't. I wont change their minds entirely, I wont erase the localized racism or the "angry at the other"-ism that has shaped their lives... but I can get them to see that they were lied to, and that in many cases we - them an I - can find a common ground in the middle to agree on in most arguments. THATS what we can do - these folks are good, honest people. They served their country. They worked in public service. They help the homeless, raise money for the ill, try to do good deeds. In a jam, I know - KNOW - that I can call them and they will be there. They will, literally, give the shirt off their backs to help ANYONE, even when they disagree.

The moment you belittle anyone you lose them. Show them respect. Teach, don't tell. Help guide them, via friendly and honest interaction and mutual respect to where they change their own minds. Sometimes I argue with them, its gets heated... but we always shake hands or hug before we walk away. I disagree with their policies, but I respect them as people, and they know it.

Be the liberal friend that THEY come to think of as honest, kind, and respectful. I point to them and say "They are good people, and I respect them, and I listen when they speak about things they believe, even when I disagree." Let them point to you and feel the same. Be that person whose conversation they remember the next time they are talking with their friends, and maybe they will be the change element in their group.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 09:59 PM

141. I have no more fucks to give about "Trump Voters". If they could still vote for him after the....

release of that Access Hollywood tape, then I don't want them in our party. I am so sick of being lectured to by Berniecrats how we need to accommodate these assholes. Just how far are we supposed to bend over for a collection of incurious yokels who have no problem electing a racist, misogynistic, bullying asswipe into the highest office in the land? You are the company you keep, and folks like you can keep making excuses for their voting behavior, but I see you & THEM as part of the problem, not the solution.

They are not the majority in this country, and that scares the shit out of 'em. People conveniently forget that Hillary got nearly 3mil more votes than the Orange One. And as for "the status quo", tell them not to worry, demographics will take care of that in the future, and then they'll really have a reason to bug out.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:04 PM

144. Your friends are all assholes.

Fuck each and every one of them!

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:09 PM

145. Trump voters are scum.

All I want them to do is drop dead and go straight to Hell.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:14 PM

147. Anybody who voted for a man

Who say and did the things Trump did is a sexist or a bigot or both. They want to "come around"? As well the should. As well they should.


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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #147)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:37 PM

152. Yes. As well THEY should is right.

I really don't get this reasoning that says that they blew up the country, so we have to change, and that change will involve MY rights being compromised.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:17 PM

148. Military Veteran? Check. Raising kids? Check. Herding cattle? Er...nope.

Dang. I feel so un-American and um...urban.

I've cracked corn via a hand crank a couple afternoons in the late seventies during an after school work/study program. I still feel like I'm not worthy of the status quo, or of progress even. Jeezuz...

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:38 PM

153. A few of them might not be assholes, most are deplorable bigots.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:38 PM

154. I have said this directly to Trump supporters who are friends of mine

 

Anyone who voted Trump displayed depraved indifference to women, people of color, Latinos, and various other ethnic groups. They also showed depraved indifference towards those whom without the Affordable care act wouldn't have healthcare and thus may die as a result of their vote.

That is a lot of fellow Americans for whom to have depraved indifference.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:40 PM

156. Fuck this shit. nt

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:43 PM

158. Take Wisconsin. The Walker/trump voters are letting a great university system be decimated.

They are turning over their beautiful natural resources to deregulated development. I do not need to kiss their fucking asses to save them from single mothers with iPhones and immigrants getting flu shots.

Time for trump voters to man/woman up and take a fucking look in the mirror. No Christian voted for that man. This will be known as the time that middle-America turned on the rest of America. Out of spite, malice and a spin of the wheel.

No. We told them they were about to step in dog shit, but they told us to fuck off. Now they want us to clean their shoes for them and invite them to dinner. Or better yet, let them come into our house with dog shit on their shoes.

They want in MY house? They need to walk in MY shoes.

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Response to LuvLoogie (Reply #158)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:55 PM

166. Yes. Well said.

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Response to LuvLoogie (Reply #158)

Wed May 3, 2017, 02:31 PM

308. Perfect

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 10:44 PM

159. "These people are not bigots or sexist pigs..." The dog ate their homework.

They gave away our country and I am happy to remind them of the fact. We do not owe them understanding or, God forbid, sympathy.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:09 PM

173. The only thing I've noticed about people I know who voted for Trump

is they don't talk much about politics anymore. The vibe I get is they know they fucked up but they are a long way from admitting it.

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #173)

Wed May 3, 2017, 01:43 AM

203. I have a lot of avoided conversations with the very few Trump supporters that I still talk to.

If an unwitting third person pushes us into a political conversation they fall back on things like "crooked Hillary" or transgender bathrooms. I don't know if there are 5 or 7 stages of grief but I do know that most of the Trump voters that I know are stuck at stage 1- denial.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:20 PM

181. Yes, agreed. The Dem party needs to expand outreach

 

There's many we're deliberately missing who could be corralled with education.

K&R!

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Tue May 2, 2017, 11:42 PM

187. Yeah, you're right, This is not popular.

We pay attention to the news because we don't spend time with family, don't work hard at our jobs, or aren't deployed in the military?

Wow. Slash and burn much?

I can do (and have done) all those things, and paid attention to what was going on in the country. It's what is possible when one has a functioning brain.

Anyone who doubts my word can talk to my eight grandchildren, talk to my employers about how much I produce for them (I don't tend cattle; it's a little below my education level...), or look at my Gulf War medals.

The Deplorables can kiss my ass. They are worthless, and barely deserve the rank of human being.

They don't like the label 'Democrat'? Fuck them coming and going.

I'm tired of hearing how I have to understand their side of it.

You know what you call 60,000,000 deplorables swept away in a series of Biblical disasters? A good start.

If they all end up in Hell, it's what they deserve.



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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:07 AM

194. "They voted to change the status quo"

Yes. But from a bent perspective reinforced by a FAUX media and ilk that have been hawking for 8 years how horrible everything was under Obama. It didn't matter if the evidence was right in front of them. It didn't matter if their job and housing made some recovery from increased employment, rebounded economy.
I don't believe many of them can be wrenched from the FAUX bubble of conservative ignorance. The cyclical nature of dismissing facts as "liberal indoctrination" while the "news ticker" below continually reinforces "Fox... the only trusted news source"...
Yes, also some are good, solid Americans with busy lives and little time to absorb but the only stations hawking the conservative talking points 24/7 on the radio enroute the next job site.
But somehow not remembering there wasn't a job site to drive to in 2010.
I will give that many are "good solid Americans".
But I also know, personally, some truly deplorable, sexist, racist, homophobic pigs who proudly wear the "Make America Grunt Again" hat. Three of which got in trouble for remarks that fit one or two of the above categories, two were fired, one disciplined and told never, ever to make heterosexist remarks to staff again. Two more I could name have made blatantly racist statements about why they voted for Trump, both so elderly and near retirement everyone just shrugs off their nonsense.
And I know of one, good, solid and very christian-faith oriented American who voted for Trump, and is realizing that was a terrible mistake her preeeeeecher talked her into.
That accounts for all 6 Trumpeteers I know here. Period. I'm glad you're having better odds with the likes.
But only one of the 6 I know have tasted the sweet honey of knowledge since and weaned off the vinegar.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:49 AM

198. These supposed "solid Americans" saw outright racism, bigotry, the violence it indulged in

sexism, misogyny and decided that it was not a deal breaker. They were crazy to support Trump, just from watching him for 5 minutes, even if they actively blocked out any news.

Not paying attention to what was going on and what was happening to their fellow Americans at these rallies and etc. is inexcusable. The direction the country was going was away from the fuck up the Republicans made of it, that endangered their kids, and was the reason they were deployed in the first place, away from their families.

They are people who voted for a bigot and a sexist pig, people who enable and turn a willing blind eye to such things are not off the hook.

Are they finally figuring out that the status quo they voted in is not just harming the "other" but themselves?

Then go change their minds, but we're not going to pretend that bigotry, racism, and those who think denying women basic human rights is somehow going to be tolerated, that isn't the change anyone is looking for.

I don't believe that issue by issue they agree with us, if they're shallow enough to be bothered by labels created by people who are actively working against them and they're too damned lazy to realize this, we don't need to "open up" to welcome the poor dears who choose to be willfully stupid.

They are welcome to join us, most of us will not be jumping down their throats calling them Russian trolls, but we don't need to gloss over what they actively chose, nor do we need to remake who we are and betray our basic principles to cater to these people.

Especially not if it means betraying who we are, and the core of our beliefs and the backbone of our party. This is our fight, and if they truly care about these issues, they don't need coddling or us pretending they didn't do what they did, they can deal with their personal issues about labels and fight with us.

Just don't expect us to pretend that they were not aiding and abetting the deplorables. if misogyny, racism, and the Nazis didn't turn them off, they've earned that label, even if they don't like it.

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Response to Ninsianna (Reply #198)

Wed May 3, 2017, 01:35 AM

200. Many of these people are essentially in a cult.

 

Most of them were born into it. The right has been brainwashing them, and their families, and entire communities for 30 years. We have had a systematic, country-wide effort to dumb down the populace, to discourage critical thought. We have major media and political leaders twisting the truth in search of power, preaching hate to the downtrodden and selling themselves as salvation. Nowhere else on earth are so many so willing to embrace ignorance. You say they are willfully stupid, but for the most part these days that is the American way.

So, you have a bunch of people in a cult, who have been taught that "outsiders" spread lies, that anyone who preaches against their faith is part of The Enemy hell-bent on their destruction. They believe you are evil, that you always lie, and that your intent will be hurtful to themselves and their families.

So what do you propose ? Hope they all drink the kool-aid and spare us ? Wait for the inevitable civil war? If they believe you are evil, and you can only see them the same way, then we will always be at war.

The ONLY way to break them out is to pull back the curtain, show them the Wizard, and deprogram them. We dont have to betray our beliefs. We just have to be willing to allow people who dont yet share them the chance to grow.

Otherwise its always going to be varying degrees of this. We see the Middle East, the Shias and the Kurds fighting for a thousand years, and we consider them backwards. If all we do is hate our neighbors, that will be one day be us.

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Response to KTM (Reply #200)

Wed May 3, 2017, 02:03 AM

207. The voice of reason

Good luck with that on the Internet. I couldn't agree more with what you posted, but very few here will listen.

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Response to KTM (Reply #200)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:00 AM

215. I consider these people to be backwards too, fighting as they do and embracing their own

ignorance and hating their neighbors, "one day"? This is already us, it's been "us" for hundreds of years.

I don't hate these people, I'm just tired of catering to their hate and forgiving their ignorance, and enduring the consequences.

If they care about the same issues, and about their health and well being of their families, they're going to need to pull back that curtain themselves. We need not send out missionaries to them and remake ourselves into whatever they need to get them to see the light.

I don't see how we're unwilling to let them have the chance to grow by not coddling them. This is not some isolated group of people living in a jungle somewhere, these are our neighbors, I don't think they're evil, I do think they're choosing to be ignorant, they're not helpless victims.

It's a mistake to pretend they are.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 01:46 AM

204. I don't buy it. You didn't need to listen to the news to know that trump is a racist, sexist, and

bigot, because Trump freely admitted it.

Anyone who voted for trump was well aware of his positions on racism, sexism, and bigotry

These are no naive innocent "good Americans" that voted for trump. They voted for him well aware that he was a racist, and that does speak volumes about them

These are the same mindsets the gave George Wallace 20% of the vote

Gee, I wonder if they made up the 20 to 25% of the populace that still believe President Obama is not an American, and a Muslim? Funny how that 20 to 25% number creeps in here and there.

If they were part of group that didn't vote or voted third party, you might have an argument, but the fact is they voted for trump knowing full well what he was

We don't win with the trump supporters, we win by getting those who didn't bother to vote, to vote

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 02:03 AM

206. Lock her up! Build that Wall!

Just grab em by the pussy. Obama's from Kenya.

Yes, I can see how nice Americans, good people can support that.

Fine, fine folks, good Christian's all no doubt!

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #206)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:35 AM

223. Fake News CNN! Enemies of the people! My taxes are secret! Nasty woman! Oh, yeah; Trump voters

 

are good people, peachy in fact. Swell. The kind you'd want to have a beer with---

if you were a fan of the letter "K".

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #223)

Wed May 3, 2017, 08:00 AM

236. So right!

And what is up with Dems accepting "they didn't like the direction the country was going in"?



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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 02:04 AM

208. I am happy for you...

you understand them.

I know this is going to be unpopular but I am friends with and I understand many Trump supporters - The Deplorables.


This

You think that they must be crazy to support Trump after everything we have heard. And, that is the thing. They have not heard the latest news. They pay little attention to the news and what is happening in the world because they are spending time with their kids, tending cattle or deployed in the military. What they know is that they do not like the direction the country is going.


Perhaps they should have taken a lesson from this man. He as well served in the military. He never lost his way. Pinboy was not to busy to stand for our vets or our Democratic rights. He fought for our human rights. Pretty close to sainthood. White man, not rich fought for our nation, wounded and came back to fight for us some more. He did not whine or stay blind. He fought.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10028999611

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 02:12 AM

209. Only barriers to voting have been devised by republicans


You are mislabeling. The deplorables are the hard core haters; the misguided Republican voters were never labeled deplorable or racist.

I think many are changing their opinion but they have never been shut out of the Democratic party

They left after the ACA was passed and now they see what the alternative is. Nobody needs anyone's permission to vote Democratic in 2018.

It might be helpful though to get rid of Republican Voter Suppression laws and regulations and practices.



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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 02:47 AM

210. Good people

Don't vote for monsters like that full stop. They knew what they were doing. Just take a look at one of those nazi campaign rally's. Those should be played over and over again. When faced with a lunatic monster like this good people do the right thing. If they want to say they made a terrible choice and own up to it fine. Show some remorse for what you've done. I'm guessing most will never vote for dems anyway.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 02:53 AM

211. I, too, know those who voted for trump. Bu also only

I, too,  know voters for trump.  I imagine we all know at least one considering just under half of those who voted did so for trump.

Most of those I know who voted for trump, actually began paying attention to politics in 2007/2008 when the economy tanked.  So in discussing with them anything political/campaign related, I  actually found they were saying things they'd heard/read with their limited understanding/knowledge base of how government actually works.  They listened to their churches  (who I heard the pastors in October when I attended,  actually say in their Sunday lectures they needed to vote for  trump or lose America as we know it), became Faux news followers thus were parroting that info,  became "preppers" who seem to me to be racist and fear based. During the last 7 years of Obama's presidency were actively gathering/hoarding food and supplies, training in organized militia and networking to form organizations/communities on isolated/protected privately owned land for when "TEOTWAWKI" (the end of the world as we know it), or, as I heard them claim, Obama imposed martial law and sent conservatives and Christians to concentration camps to be killed.

I listened to what they had to say as I saw it as learning from each other.  I genuinely wanted to understand their position - I wanted to understand how they could actually believe their government was plotting to kill them.  Sadly, these relationships dissolved over the campaign as they actually said to me - each in their own way - they couldn't associate with someone who claimed to be American and didn't believe that "Clinton caused Benghazi" "Clinton runs a child sex ring from a pizza shop" "We have to save America because the Democrats have hi-jacked the US".  Yes!   These adults believe these things, at least in September and October when we last spoke they did.  These were family members (brothers and sister-in-law), extended family,  and 2 friends I'd known  10 years, as well as a professional acquaintance (licensed master of psychology)  who we became friends during the year prior to election. The others are all blue collar workers,  if it means anything.

I saw much of their discomfort with President Obama as a difference of management style, at least that which was not directly due to their racism. They were comfortable with 'hierarchy' and saw President Obama as no leadership skills. I saw President Obama's leadership style as more 'circular'. Therefore, for instance, I saw his ignoring Kim Jung-Un much like ignoring a child throwing a tantrum because you won't but him a piece of gum. These I refer to said they would "punish" the child - spanking they said - to show them they were "wrong". They saw President Obama showing Kim Jung-Un that he could get away with "misbehaving". They also advocated the US stop being the world's police, and said they saw trump as asserting that position. North Korea has a pattern of asserting themselves in inappropriate ways when they need food or supplies. Many people still favor patriarchal leadership over circular - especially women I know in the area I'm currently living (Eastern Washington - Red as well). They want a man. They want that man to be aggressive in their leadership because it makes them feel safe. So President Obama ignoring Kim Jung-Un seemed weak to them. Just one example.

I don't know where these voters I refer to stand today. I've had the hardest time with this election cycle than any in my 40 years of voting. It's also been the most emotionally challenging. It's certainly the only one I've lost relatives over. I'm still having a difficult time with the reality of this aspect. Yet it's one I feel has been a most significant one as having long lasting affects - decades long.

I think many of us here have similar experiences/feelings. I'm so grateful to have found this site. I know I'm not alone in these thoughts.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:07 AM

218. They disgust me. End of story.

They either heard him say vile, racist shit and didn't care or they didn't know about it, which makes them incredibly uninformed and ignorant and they shouldn't have voted at all. There is NO excuse you can make for what they did that reflects remotely well on them.

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Response to BlueStater (Reply #218)

Wed May 3, 2017, 10:06 AM

250. Message deleted by DU the Administrators

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:29 AM

221. After reading this thread, I am, frankly, stunned by Democrats who have so many Trump supporters as

 

friends!

But then, my circle is extremely small. And now glad of it.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:41 AM

224. Final comment: I'll measure the regret of these "good Americans" by the election results in 2018.

 

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 06:24 AM

229. Me too.

I have friends going back to first grade and high school who still (somewhat) support Trump.

We haven't attacked each other personally on F/B. We haven't un-friended each other, etc.

The friend from first grade is nearly giddy with joy from sending his daughter to Falwell's Liberty University.

The high school friend is a former bad-ass, who became an evangelical minister. He supports Trump but wishes there was another choice.

We know each other's political views. I read their posts and shake my head.

But we have risen above all this morass to be loyal to one another. Trump hasn't taken that away (yet).

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 07:53 AM

235. "These people are not bigots or sexist pigs."

 

Really? Then why did they vote for and still support a bigoted, sexist pig?????

That makes them as bad and as guilty as Trump in my book and they can go to hell! Fuck them!

Do you actually think these racist, misogynist, willfully ignorant bastards are ever going to do anything other than what Fox news and hate radio tells them to do?

40 percent or so of the non hater voting public sat out the last election, these are the people the democratic party needs to reach out to and get to the polls.

The fucking deplorables are a lost cause and who would want lowlifes like that in the party anyway?

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Response to workinclasszero (Reply #235)

Wed May 3, 2017, 03:48 PM

315. Or, God forbid, as friends. Ugh - nt

 

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 08:06 AM

237. spending time with their kids, tending cattle or deployed in the military

The knuckledraggers I know are glued to Faux News

sorry, but fuck 'em

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 08:12 AM

238. His supporters sold their souls to the devil

in exchange for the Supreme Court

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Response to HAB911 (Reply #238)

Wed May 3, 2017, 09:21 AM

244. +++++++++++++++++++++

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 08:41 AM

241. If They Are Uninformed Or Misinformed. . .

. . .how do they define the "direction the country is going"? If they just didn't like a black guy as president, then that's deeper than being too busy.

If they are so busy they don't know what's going on, how do they know the direction of the overall country? And how would voting for the idiot we have now change that?

Your premise seems to be flawed.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 09:12 AM

242. Virtually nothing would change the status quo as much as voting for our first woman President.


just saying...

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 09:35 AM

245. The first thing we can do is stop calling them stupid and deplorable

A lot of folks here are lumping them all together when really there are many different types who care about different things. We can divide them and conquer.

Implanting the seeds of doubt in their minds, getting them to question their party and president is the first step to turning them. A lot of them want economic populism. Many don't know how to adapt to the changing economy and world around them. The gap between city and country is widening and people move for jobs.

Life is not what it used to be and it is very easy, slippery slope to blame someone for their problems. It's better to offer them solutions. Sooner or later they will ask where are the jobs Trump promised them.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 09:59 AM

248. My guess is that many who "voted to change the status quo" now miss the "status quo"!

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 10:12 AM

251. Then why is the approval rating of the Democratic party going down?

 

It should be obvious to anyone that the Republicans are a f'ing disaster. So, why are things getting worse for the Democratic party?



It makes no sense to me.

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Response to Kirkwood (Reply #251)

Wed May 3, 2017, 10:38 AM

260. First, Have A Point

Secondly, check to see if the R party is seeing the same trend, as it's obvious that the populace is pretty disenchanted with Congress.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #260)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:51 AM

277. So, you have no answer.

 

Thank for nothing.

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Response to Kirkwood (Reply #251)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:40 PM

291. Really?

I find those numbers hard to believe. Or who are they asking?

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 10:16 AM

253. Everyone who voted for trump knew he is a racist and a bigot and still voted for him.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 10:26 AM

255. So, these "good solid Americans" voted for

someone who publicly and repeatedly vilified Muslims and women, mocked the disabled, sneered at the educated, incited violence at his rallies. All of this was in full view, and Dump was PROUD of it. Claiming surprise now that he's EXACTLY what he seemed to be in the campaign is disingenuous at best, and more likely dishonest.

Sorry, I don't buy anything in the OP, except possibly that a few of them may be "coming around." They're doing so because THEY are affected, not because they finally...FINALLY realize Dump is a monster destroying the country. Either the ARE bigoted and/or sexist, or they were willfully ignorant. Dump never hid his bigotry; it was there for all to see at even a casual glance. They're not worth our time, which can be better spent on getting real Democrats to the voting booth.

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Response to NastyRiffraff (Reply #255)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:30 AM

274. Well said!

And very much to the point.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 10:32 AM

256. Like the Libertarians, we may agree on specific, individual issues

But if we try to backpedal on our social justice issues, and our health care advocacy in order to "change our label" then we are not longer the party of the people. Any people.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 10:33 AM

257. So much to deal with here and so little time

Needless to say that I'm not as forgiving because of what they did to America.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)


Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 10:55 AM

263. I have to wonder if the OP is a person of color

I haven't read all the responses but as a black woman, I see it differently. To say that they're not bigots is to separate them from the responsibility they have for putting a bigot in office. It's very easy to do when these thing don't directly affect you. So, I kind of don't care if they come around if in their heart of hearts they can excuse someone like Trump with no thought for what it would mean for someone like me.

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Response to qanda (Reply #263)

Wed May 3, 2017, 04:52 PM

332. I'm with you, ganda.

Enabling a racist is no improvement over being one. Voting while being "too busy" to be informed is totally irresponsible when people's lives are on the line.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 10:55 AM

264. If "they pay little attention to the news", then they're not "good solid Americans".

They're deplorable, and they're the reason we face what we have today in Congress, the White House, and the Supreme Court.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:02 AM

265. Really?

"These people are not bigots or sexist pigs. They are good solid Americans."


Many Trump voters are indeed bigots and sexist pigs, and worse. Your friends may be salt-of-the-earth, apple pie Americans, but they voted for a self-professed bigoted, sexist, lying criminal which makes them just as culpable as the rest of the right-wing rabble who "elected" the delusional asshole who equates himself with past great Americans.

I'm sorry, but Democrats won the popular vote, and it was Republican gerrymandering and Russian interference that won the Electoral College -- not the loss of a few "we want change so we're willing to vote for a despot to get it" uniformed (ignorant?), selfish, "solid Americans."

And lastly, the country has recovered from one of the worst economic periods in its history due to Democrats, and would have continued toward prosperity under continued Democratic governance. "Make America Great Again" is nothing more than an empty slogan because America is already great.

Now we're headed for an economic and military disaster because some "good solid Americans" believed Trump's bullshit, and voted for unnecessary change, and unachievable solutions to non-existent problems.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:06 AM

267. at times like this I like to refer to The Oatmeal (internet comic) to speak for me...

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:09 AM

268. I agree. My sentiments exactly.

Scanning the posts up-thread, as usual, there are many here at DU who disagree -- and make some legitimate points.

One point made by several that struck me is they have family members who voted for Trump, know them well, and know they will not "come around" or be enlightened, have a change of heart re: Trump. I can agree with that to a point: I have some family members (siblings actually) who fall into that category, but others (also siblings -- I come from a large family) who fall into the category tecelote describes in the OP. They are not a lost cause. One of my siblings voted Trump for exactly the reason tecelote describes -- but would not do it again. Yeah, she didn't think things through well; yeah, she didn't follow the election/campaign news closely and she hasn't been a news watching/reading type ever really. But she is now pretty adamant about seeing Trump gone.

There's no question that Trump and his administration are in place because of the misogyny and bigotry that are so prevalent in America -- but not all Trump voters fall into those categories.

And they are coming around, slowly but surely. Trump has already lost 5% of his voter support, far more than enough to achieve a different electoral outcome had the election been held today. We need to continue to go after those people as a Party. To write them off is foolish.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:18 AM

270. "They pay little attention to the news and what is happening in the world . . ."

Oh, OK then, you can ignore everything but your kids and your job. And if you're in the military, why would you possibly want to pay attention to "what is happening in the world", right?

That doesn't make you a "good, solid American". It makes you lazy and disengaged and selfish, since actually trying to inform yourself, or stay in touch with reality would be hard!

Part of being a citizen (as opposed to a "consumer" - loathsome word) is staying informed. A really important part of being a citizen in a democracy is being able to tell shit from Ovaltine, and being able to tell facts from lies, and then applying that ability to your life.

Your "good solid American" friends are definitely not up to the task of mastering this fundamental responsibility. And given that, why would we want lazy, ill-informed, selfish voters setting the course of the Democratic Party in the future?

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:21 AM

272. another classic example

 

of obfuscation of why the boy-potus is sitting in the WH taking a dump on all minority citizens. Good try, no cigar. 98% of chump trump voters would vote for him again. Good luck on "changing minds".

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:27 AM

273. The Trump supporters you know aren't the same ones I know...

fwiw...

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:33 AM

275. yanno i get what your saying but

the problem is, according to your post, they made a bad decision and now just ignore it and leave us with this monster - if they wanted to change things for the better - I get that - there were different options available and with all the crap that WAS and IS in the news - they bear responsibility for the shitstorm that we now have....

we warned them...they voted that way anyway and now they just turn their back on everything? if they never pay attention why did they want change? change from what? they had no idea what was going on in the first place...

we need BS free voter education but until we have it every voter has a duty to their country to research and make informed decisions....

if those people are not the racists POS that was reflected in their vote then they need to get off their asses and help save the country and the world....

fix wtf u did.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:40 AM

276. There was an ocean

Of evidence that maggot was an unqualified POS.
Are they getting the change they want?
Are the rest of us on a death watch for the environment and democracy? Yes.
Are they happy he is trying to destroy health care? Or has not done ONE constructive thing?
That we have to worry about his sanity and nukes 24/7?
They had at least a year to make a thoughtful choice.
They did not.
Change.
Emails.
Hillary.
The only thing solid about them is their heads.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 11:58 AM

281. He blasted his racist, sexist, bigoted bullshit with a megaphone and they didn't hear it?

 

BULL FUCKING SHIT.

Good solid Americans don't fall for that crap. Period.

If they didn't hear any of that, what in the fuck makes anyone think they are going to hear anything that Democrats have to say? I mean seriously. They voted for the guy who preached hate. The guy who incited violence at his rallies. The guy who "grabs women by the pussy" because he "can do anything".

It is absolutely asinine to suggest this is a messaging problem when it's quite clear that it's not. And again ignores the reality of what happened last election.



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Response to JTFrog (Reply #281)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:39 PM

289. And he's been doing that on a daily basis since June 2015

and before that, with the birther bullshit

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:04 PM

282. Baloney!

 

98% of Trump supporters would still vote for him and the vast majority are racist sexist pieces of shit.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:10 PM

283. great post

If people still want to draw lines and put up walls - then the GOP / trump / etc wins. It's as simple as that. We don't win on a battlefield where it's a hate match: everyone going to "war" is doing EXACTLY what they want.

We have the opportunity and talent to change minds. Difficult as that may seem, but it's the ONLY way.

There really isn't much time: with the threat of war, climate change, economic etc - if we don't find a way to work together, we are simply not going to make it as a species.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:12 PM

284. Wrong...more than half are racist idiots in my church...

Half the men wore Trump badges the Sunday before...many of them use the N word ....so i no longer want to be around them...."you r who your with' and I left that sin trap.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:22 PM

285. "They pay little attention to the news and what is happening in the world.."

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:25 PM

286. i tried that and they just make no sense. n/t.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:27 PM

287. I have trouble getting past the fact that they KNOWINGLY voted for a self-admitted sexual

predator and pervert, all politics aside. that makes my skin crawl.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:38 PM

288. Trying to appeal to these idiots is not the best use of our time. We need to energize our base.

As Nate Cohn found:

Perhaps most important is the group that voted in much larger numbers than in 2012: white voters without a college degree. (Trump won this bloc 63 percent to 32 percent.) Generally speaking, college graduates are more likely to vote than non-college graduates, even when controlling for race. According to the Current Population Survey, whites without a college degree made up 44 percent of voters who cast a ballot in 2012, and 58 percent of registered voters who didn’t vote.

These may have been some of the “missing” white voters that RealClearPolitics Sean Trende has written about, but in 2016, they weren’t missing. In the SurveyMonkey data, white non-college graduates made up 48 percent of 2016 registered voters who didn’t vote, substantially lower than 2012. They made up 47 percent of voters. It’s pretty remarkable that a group of voters that is shrinking as a percentage of the population made up a larger share of the electorate in 2016 than in 2012. But Trump made a clear appeal to this group, and some voters who stayed at home in previous years may have felt they had a greater voice in 2016.

Simply put, Trump got more of his voters to turn out than Clinton did. That’s quite a turnaround from the pre-election conventional wisdom that the Clinton campaign had the better turnout machine. Of course, Clinton’s turnout operation may well have nudged many reluctant voters to the polls, but either way, it wasn’t enough. The polling numbers from SurveyMonkey indicate that Clinton was hurt dearly by the voters who decided not to vote.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/registered-voters-who-stayed-home-probably-cost-clinton-the-election/

Everyone thought that Trump was making a huge mistake in not following the GOP post-mortem report that said the GOP needs to embrace immigration reform. But, his doubling down on typical GOP immigrant bashing got his base out, more than making up for their dwindling numbers. Meanwhile, the GOP smear machine, with a big assist from Comey, brutalized Hillary, depressed the Democratic vote and caused undecideds to break for Trump. The last two weeks of the campaign saw Clinton support implode--with Comey doing the last minute decapitation:



If Dems decide to appeal to the dumbass uneducated white voter, they are learning the WRONG lesson from the 2016 post-mortem. Dems lost because Dems did not turn out.

We needs to appeal to our base. It is a lot easier for Dems to make Dems turn out than for Dems to make GOP-leaning voters turn out. We wouldn't be selling out our principles, so we would have much more credibility with voters. And if dumbasses like your friend really do agree with Dems on policy, then we will get them too.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #288)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:42 PM

293. It's an absolute waste of time talking to them. Deplorables will not vote Democratic.

We need to focus on turnout.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 12:39 PM

290. "What they know is that they do not like the direction the country is going."

The problem is that, if you are correct that they don't have time to become informed, then on what do they base their idea that the country is going in a direction they don't like? I'm afraid the vast majority of Trump voters get their information from fox and other right wing hate talk sources, and that is why they think the country is going in the wrong direction.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 01:06 PM

295. If they don't know what's going on in politics

cause they're busy living their lives, then they don't know we're putting them down. If they're cognizant enough to know they're being put down and excluded, they have responsibility to educate themselves about what the hell is going on, and what they've helped unleash.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 01:35 PM

297. They gambled Americans future. Don't think they care thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..........aaaaaaaaaaaat much!

 

I will give anyone a chance but still it is good to know that Trump voters:

1. gambled Americans future &
2. didn't and probably still don't care thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..........aaaaaaaaaaaat much!

eom.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 01:41 PM

299. I've wondered how many people buy into the whole Democratic or GOP program

Certainly core activists do for both parties. But how many people just care about a few key issues or even personality factors or party identity in a vague way and nothing more. Could it be a large number of people? I think it must be, given the complete party turnover from Democratic to GOP in the last 8 years. And the large movement in the opposite direction from 2006-9.

I think people on DU, DK and also conservative sites overlook this. But the vote manipulators like the Koch brothers have perfected ways to influence these people.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 01:47 PM

301. "Nice" is not the same as "good"

A lot of "nice" people voted for Trump, but don't mistake that for "good" people who voted for him. Anyone with an ounce of integrity would not have to work hard to see exactly what kind of asshole Trump truly was. His supporters voted for him because of his character defects, or they were willing to accept them as a tradeoff for getting what they wanted for themselves and letting the rest of the country sink.

If you're a bitter white person who thinks everyone else is getting a better deal than you, and that only Trump will get you back in the place you belong, then you're a bigot. Maybe you're a "nice" bigot, but you're still a bigot and blind to the real faultlines in this country.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 01:52 PM

302. I'm willing to believe a very small percentage were truly ignorant

The rest knew what they were doing. Some can be reached (no idea on %), the rest we have to just ignore. Turnout for us is the key.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 02:15 PM

304. I respectfully disagree.

I know people who run farms (large vineyards and vegetable crops where I live), and who are deployed in the military, and a couple who tend to their special needs children. These people are either out of the country for long periods or are spending 70+ hour weeks working.

Yet, all of them had the sources, means and methods to understand just what Trump is and what the real issues were. They weren't those who just "voted for change" because of "how they felt" and just drank the Kool-Aid that the country was "going in the wrong direction". They took their responsibility as citizens seriously and did some amount of actual thinking.

These people learned from a few quality sources that:

- The economy was, in fact, on the mend.
- Over 12 million jobs had been added in the last 8 years.
- The stock market had more than doubled its value in the last 8 years.
- LGBT rights saw huge gains in the last 8 years.
- Fewer Americans were dying in wars abroad.
- That attacks on women's rights were on the ascendency.
- Bigotry and racism were up.
- ...and much, much more.

Even though they still felt that things weren't as rosy as they'd like, they still were able to arrive at the conclusion that Trump wasn't the answer.

Those who voted Trump "to change the status quo" were influenced by right wing mythology that made them "feel" the country wasn't going in the right direction. They didn't do much to look in to these right wing talking points. They didn't take the time and effort and do their civic due-diligence. They willfully stayed in an information vacuum and let their prejudices run wild.

I know Hillary and Bernie voters who couldn't find work, either. They, too, felt that America wasn't going in the right direction for them. But, they had the smarts to know that in the ups and downs of economic cycles, there are going to be winners and losers. They know that the train wreck of 2007-2008 was especially severe and that the rules of recovery were now different.

But, they could also see that what Trump was promising was nothing but hot air. And some of the stuff he was promising was just downright harmful.

I know we can't characterize all Trump voters as racist ignoramuses. But it's fair to say that a majority of them are. I say this because I have seen no evidence to the contrary. In my personal sphere, it's about 40% nice people who voted Trump for change, and 60% who voted Trump and who see the world through racially-tinged, cynical, hate-liberals-at-all-cost set of eyes.

In some cases it's fair to generalize. And in this case I'll say that "I feel" a majority of Trump voters are racist, vile assholes. If their "feelings" that we're headed in the wrong direction can be taken as legitimate, then my feelings on this matter are legitimate, too.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 02:20 PM

306. I need to know what Republicans did during Obama to warrant any of their votes.

A question I've never seen answered or asked for that matter.

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Response to tenderfoot (Reply #306)

Wed May 3, 2017, 07:20 PM

341. This is a very important question. And just more weight on the "Yep, they're bigots and sexists"

scale.

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 02:26 PM

307. they need to say "you were right, I'm Sorry, How can we help?"

we cant fix this if they are too proud to admit they were wrong....we cannot fix this if they are still in denial

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Response to tecelote (Original post)

Wed May 3, 2017, 02:57 PM

310. Methinks you are very naive ...

Trump's bigotry was plain to see. And YOUR friends supported IT.

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