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Thu Apr 20, 2017, 11:43 PM

How can one claim to be progressive while being pro-life?

Why would a progressive campaign for someone who is pro-life and sponsored a bill to compel women seeking abortions to view ultrasounds of their fetuses? Why would progressive supporters ignore advocacy for pro-lifers, as though the equal rights of half the population weren't worth their attention?

There was already a long thread on this but many respondents avoided the key issue that concerns me: women's equal rights. Bernie is choosing to spend his time campaigning for a pro-life candidate over and above other Democrats seeking election.

“If you run as a Democrat, you’re a Democrat,” Sanders said. “Some Democrats are progressive, and some Democrats are not.” . . .

Perhaps the strangest thing about this is that Sanders isn't vouching for Ossoff's progressivism even as he's doing so for another Democrat of pretty questionable credentials. That would be Omaha mayoral candidate and former state senator Heath Mello, whom Sanders will campaign with Thursday.

As the Wall Street Journal's Reid J. Epstein and Natalie Andrews note, Mello in 2009 sponsored a bill that would require a woman to look at ultrasound images of her fetus before undergoing an abortion (he still opposes abortion rights). Indeed, it's tough to think of something that progressives would hate more.

Why would progressives ignore ignore that

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/04/20/bernie-sanderss-strange-behavior/?utm_term=.722503041999

This is not Bernie derangement syndrome. This is about concern for my equal rights and those of just over half the population of America.

Abortion rights are not a wedge issue. They are fundamental civil rights. They also are directly related to poverty. Women already earn less than men. Single mothers already experience higher rates of poverty. As access to reproductive rights diminish, their poverty increases and with them the children who make up the largest portion of the American poor.

It is not possible to advocate for economic equality without supporting equal rights for women. To do so is to advocate for increased male prosperity at the expense of legal and economic equality for women.

If you truly care about economic equality, if you truly want to move the country forward rather than backward, then you must tell Bernie his support for pro-life candidates, whether Mello or Marcy Capture, is not acceptable. It is not progressive. You might agree with Bernie on every other issue he champions. You might admire him greatly, but he is wrong on this, and as citizens and his supporters you have the obligation to tell him so. Unless . . . you don't actually support women's reproductive rights or consider them of insufficient importance to even voice concern. If that's the case, you should be honest on the subject so that we can know that contemporary progressivism is defined in terms of male prosperity, with women excluded.

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Reply How can one claim to be progressive while being pro-life? (Original post)
BainsBane Apr 2017 OP
Warpy Apr 2017 #1
BainsBane Apr 2017 #2
Warpy Apr 2017 #11
BainsBane Apr 2017 #24
JenniferJuniper Apr 2017 #3
Orsino Apr 2017 #111
Warpy Apr 2017 #116
brush Apr 2017 #4
BainsBane Apr 2017 #5
Docreed2003 Apr 2017 #17
BainsBane Apr 2017 #29
Warpy Apr 2017 #36
BainsBane Apr 2017 #40
Kentonio Apr 2017 #47
BainsBane Apr 2017 #93
Kentonio Apr 2017 #118
BainsBane Apr 2017 #121
Kentonio Apr 2017 #133
BainsBane Apr 2017 #134
brush Apr 2017 #142
Starry Messenger Apr 2017 #6
betsuni Apr 2017 #18
Cha Apr 2017 #28
mcar Apr 2017 #75
radical noodle Apr 2017 #7
BainsBane Apr 2017 #15
Cha Apr 2017 #32
radical noodle Apr 2017 #94
Docreed2003 Apr 2017 #8
BainsBane Apr 2017 #13
quakerboy Apr 2017 #41
Starry Messenger Apr 2017 #14
Lil Missy Apr 2017 #9
JenniferJuniper Apr 2017 #12
BainsBane Apr 2017 #16
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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Thu Apr 20, 2017, 11:49 PM

1. You can't deny the adult humanity of half the human race and be progressive.

You can't suspend the rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness in half the human race at someone else's convenience and be progressive.

You can't go around trying to insert your church's dogma into civil law and be progressive, especially when that dogma contradicts scientific knowledge.

No matter how good you are on men's issues, if you have a blind spot big enough for the other half of the human race, you are not a progressive.

It will just never add up.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #1)

Thu Apr 20, 2017, 11:50 PM

2. Agreed

Are you going to communicate that to Bernie?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:14 AM

11. If you're talking about Mello in Nebraska

I looked him up over at Nebraska Right To Life. They find him barely acceptable, call him a non-advocate for the unborn.

The one piece of women's health legislation he has sponsored was to give the right to prenatal care to undocumented workers.

His worst vote was the 20 week ban. That sort of thing should never be voted on by anyone since it has nothing to do with medical practice or scientific facts. Medically ignorant people, especially medically ignorant men, have no business trying to practice medicine by decree.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #11)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:44 AM

24. We're not talking about a vote

He sponsored legislation. I wasn't at all unclear in my OP. I specifically discussed Mello, his spnsorship of the law requiring women to view ultrasounds of fetuses before having an abortion, and Bernie's campaigning for him. That the fundamentalists don't think Mello women-hating enough isn't the point. Bernie is using his considerable clout to campaign for him. That means he is using his influence to promote a pro-life candidate. In the process he is convincing "progressives" that women's rights aren't a priority but a "wedge issue."

You are a progressive who values women's rights. Don't you think you have a responsibility to contact Bernie's office to tell him you find his endorsement of yet another pro-life candidate unacceptable? You supported him. You may have even donated money. You have a right, a responsibility, to make clear that your rights are not negotiable.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #1)

Thu Apr 20, 2017, 11:51 PM

3. Wanting to control what someone else does

with her body is not progressive thinking. At all. And it never will be.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #1)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 02:07 PM

111. Yes, you sort of can. I think.

True progressive stances on other issues might carry a lot of weight.

I would agree, though, that anyone who weasels into an anti-choice position ought to be viewed suspiciously on any other topic, and we should question the wisdom of "working with" such a person.

But, strange bedfellows.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #111)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 02:14 PM

116. Half the human race. Think about it.

No, you can't be a progressive if you eliminate half the human race from your progressivism. It's not going to work.

I know I will never waste a vote on someone who shunts women into perpetual childhood and claims we can't make our own decisions about which course our lives will take.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Thu Apr 20, 2017, 11:53 PM

4. Believe it or not there are people on this board defending this choice instead of campaigning...

to help gain and IMMEDIATED NEW DEM CONGRESSIONAL SEAT from Georgia in Congress.

It's puzzling to me why the importance of helping to gain that IMMEDIATE SEAT to vote against trump and Ryan's right wing agenda is not understood.

Why a mayoral seat for a pro-lifer in Nebraska takes precedent over that I just don't get?

Where are our priorities?

We've all been talking about the importance of trying to take back the House in 2018 and an opportunity to gain a seat NOW is not deemed important enough for our outreach chairman to help.

That is nuts.

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Response to brush (Reply #4)

Thu Apr 20, 2017, 11:59 PM

5. Whether he campaigns for Ossoff is one matter.

Last edited Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:55 AM - Edit history (1)

Using his considerable clout to advocate for a pro-life candidate is another and far more concerning.

Planned Parenthood had issued a public statement refuting claims that it gave Mello a 100% rating. They said they have never endorsed him, and in fact they have actively oppose him. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/omaha-mayoral-candidate-under-fire-says-he-would-never-do-anything-to-restrict-access-to-reproductive-health-care_us_58f8e868e4b018a9ce590a84

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #5)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:24 AM

17. Ok...I'm a dislexic and a political simpleton....

I've read the article twice and I don't see where Planned Parenthood has "actively opposed" Mello. I'm happy to be enlightened on this issue, but from what I see in the article, Mello is a conservative Dem. We will certainly need all types to fight Cheetolini.

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Response to Docreed2003 (Reply #17)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:53 AM

29. Here

“Heath Mello has introduced and supported anti-choice legislation during his time at the Nebraska Unicameral, and Planned Parenthood Voters of Nebraska strongly opposed him when he took such actions,” the statement continues.
r

They go on to say he has said he supports PP in his campaign for Mayor and that their door remains open to discuss women's rights if he truly has had a change of heart, but they do not give him a 100% rating.

If I were a voter in Omaha, I would not be persuaded by this very recent change of heart, particularly since the WaPo says he still admits to being pro-life.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #29)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 01:26 AM

36. I wouldn't waste a vote on him, either

but the only legislation I saw that he co sponsored was for prenatal care for undocumented women. Maybe nothing else got out of committee and got put to a vote. Not being in Omaha, I'm limited to what I can find online.

He seems to be trying to walk a fine line, trying to please both sides and pleasing neither.

Also don't forget the DNC is still offering massive support to Bob Casey of PA, a rabid antichoicer who's utterly blind when it comes to women, voting against family planning as well as voting for any antiabortion crap he can.

So, no, I'm not surprised by this, it's just more of the same and another reason to be disgusted by the inside the beltway party wonks.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #36)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 02:49 AM

40. You are ignoring the articles linked

And the excerpts posted throughout this thread. I don't know why you feel compelled to continually make excuses. We aren't talking about the DNC. I'm talking about whether you want a progressive movement that values you as less while you make excuses for Bernie advocating for politicians who would relegate women to second class citizenship and increased poverty, all under the absurd claim that economic equality is furthered through ignoring reproductive rights issues that keep women and their children from desperate poverty.

The Question is whether you care enough to try to stop what is u folding, to tell Bernie that women's rights are not negotiable. Bernie is from a generation before the women's movement. He could be convinced that women's rights were not optional if his supporters clearly communicated that message to him, but that requires their conviction and a belief that he, as a public servant, represents them, not that they exist to serve and defend him. It requires understanding the people--all of the people, including women-- come first.

I am appalled by what I am seeing, but not surprised. I've seen signs of it for well over a year now. This is what happens when one man is treated as more important than the people he purports to represent. The effect is that his supporters are starting to be convinced that women's rights are wedge issues that should be abandoned in favor of what Bernie cares most about. Even women are making that argument. Their own rights, their own lives, matter less than Bernie. Stopping that requires immediate intervention, not complacency or excuses that another Dem somewhere is pro-life. Bob Casey doesn't have millions of supporters who treat his every word as absolute, who rearrange their core values in responses to his priorities. We have already seen gun control vanish from the progressive roster. Do you really want women's rights to go the same way?

I won't be helping turn the clock back to the days when you and I were treated like property, and I intend to actively resist the reactionary positions and the complacency.




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Response to BainsBane (Reply #40)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 04:49 AM

47. Oh come on

Bernie is from a generation before the women's movement.


Really? So that's why back in 1993 he co-sponsored the Freedom of Choice Act? That's why he has a 100% rating on the issue? Why he has loudly and proudly defended woman's right to choose for decades?

You want to ask why he's supporting this candidate? Great, it's a fair question and one that deserves an answer. I'd be interested to hear it myself. But give it a rest with the attempts to smear his own record on the subject, because otherwise you're just making this look like yet another opportunistic attack on a progressive you don't like.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #47)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 10:30 AM

93. This really pisses me off

I'm not smearing his record. I'm asking his supporters to stand up and make clear they don't want him campaigning for pro-life candidates. The question here is if you care enough about the rights of half the population to tell him it's not acceptable?

He was born before the woman's movement. That is a fact. It says nothing about his record.
This sadly typical response of "you're smearing Bernie doesn't cut it. This is about civil rights and economic justice. Where do you stand? This Bernie supporter gets it.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10028958175#post45
Why cant you? '

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #93)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 02:28 PM

118. You just did smear his record for christs sake!

Do you not even realize you're doing it or something?

Bernie is from a generation before the women's movement. He could be convinced that women's rights were not optional if his supporters clearly communicated that message to him


That right there is a fucking smear. You just came right out and said that he thinks women's rights are optional. That is a disgusting thing to throw at a lifelong progressive, but you didn't give a shit because hey its open season on Bernie.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #118)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 03:44 PM

121. You couldn't be clearer in your view

that women's rights aren't important enough for you to focus on anything but defending Bernie. He is campaigning for a pro-life candidate. That is not defending women's rights, that is treating them as optional. The focus here is on you, and you continue to demonstrate that your singular concern is one man, not economic justice or the rights of the majority. Bernie is wrong on this issue. That your refuse to even consider that tells me you cannot be counted on to stand up for equal rights or economic equality.

You remain dedicated to your myopic cause of the infallibility of the one in disregard of the rights of the many. That is who you choose to be because that is what you value. In another thread you defended Mello, attacked women who raised the issue of reproductive rights as 'centrist,' which apparently means concerns with anyone but white men who already make several times the median income.

The more reactions like this I see, the more I am convinced that too many so-called progressvies care about the wealth of a select demographic rather than economic equality and civil rights. Thankfully, some progressive care enough about core principles to express their concerns to Bernie, but you have instead chosen to attack those who dare to advocate for their own rights because you believe Bernie matters more. There is nothing progressive or leftist about elevating one over the many. It is deeply reactionary, closer to a pre-modern political ethos that representative democracy. I categorically reject the hard turn to the right I am witnessing.


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Response to BainsBane (Reply #121)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 09:21 PM

133. You're hilarious

I called you out on your complete silence when it's someone like Manchin and you refused to reply and fell back in a variation of 'how dare I question your progressive qualifications'. Except now that's exactly what you're doing. Your hypocrisy speaks volumes.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #133)

Sat Apr 22, 2017, 04:06 PM

134. Don't bullshit me

You have no idea who you are even talking to.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #133)

Sat Apr 22, 2017, 11:35 PM

142. I think she/he broke it down splendidly. Tell Sanders to stop backing pro-lifers

Womens' reproductive rights are non-negotiable.

Being willing to overlook non-support for this issue that affects half the human race should be unthinkable for a progressive.

Sanders is a progressive, right?

Why is he supporting this guy?

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:03 AM

6. I just copied this comment from a FB thread:

"So it's fine in Nebraska for someone to support the subjugation of women, it's okay for someone in Vermont to get help from the NRA, but Hillary getting paid for speeches in front of the number one industry in the state where she was a Senator was a bridge too far. Good to know."

We all know that women's issues get thrown under the bus whenever and wherever they can, but after the last two years, this instance rankles very much more so.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:24 AM

18. +1

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:51 AM

28. This is sickeningly surreal..

I'm so pissed.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:18 AM

75. +1000!

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:11 AM

7. I agree

but we have a few Dems who are pro-life in their daily beliefs but still recognize that their beliefs should not affect what others can do. If I'm not mistaken, both Joe Biden and Tim Kaine feel that way. If we have a candidate that is against abortion personally but not politically, I'm okay with that if they seem to be trustworthy.

No one can be considered progressive who wants to remove a woman's right to reproduction choice in my opinion.

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Response to radical noodle (Reply #7)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:19 AM

15. They are personally opposed to abortion but not pro-life

They haven't sponsored legislation restricting women's reproductive rights. Nor, I believe, have they voted for it.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #15)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 01:09 AM

32. Whereas Mello..

Why Is the DNC Embracing an Aggressively Anti-Choice Democrat

snip//

He was endorsed in 2010 by anti-choice group Nebraska Right to Life.

Heath Mello has sponsored a range of anti-choice measures, including a 20-week abortion ban.

musette https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8955986 https://rewire.news/article/2017/04/20/why-is-dnc-embracing-aggressively-anti-choice-democrat/

Heath Mello is a sponsor of the final version of a 20-week abortion ban approved by the governor in 2010, and cast anti-choice votes in favor of requiring physicians to be physically present for an abortion in order to impede access to telemedicine abortion care, and a law banning insurance plans in the state from covering abortions.

Try that ol Establishment Planned Parenthood.

snip//

The Daily Kos, which describes itself as “a news organization, community, and activist hub,” pulled its endorsement of Mello after revelations about the Democrat’s stance on abortion. The site said it had been unaware of Mello’s anti-choice stance, but that “as soon as we learned this information, we withdrew our endorsement, because this legislation clearly runs contrary to Daily Kos’ deepest values, including our support for women’s reproductive rights and our staunch opposition to laws that in any way impede women’s access to reproductive health care.”

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #15)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 10:41 AM

94. Yes, exactly

You put it much better than I did. Thank you!

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:11 AM

8. I see where your coming from and I get your point...:

But, any idea why Planned Parenthood Nebraska gives Mello a 100% rating? Mello seems to me to be a Joe Biden type, who personally opposes abortion while believing it should be safe and available.

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Response to Docreed2003 (Reply #8)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:18 AM

13. No, they have refuted that claim

It's false.

PPVN, the political arm of the family-planning organization, pushed back on the claim that it gave Heath Mello a 100 percent rating. The group’s scorecard from 2011 shows Mello “voting against Planned Parenthood’s position on three votes ― all abortion related.”

“Planned Parenthood Voters of Nebraska has never endorsed Heath Mello for public office nor has Planned Parenthood Voters of Nebraska given Heath Mello a 100% rating, as some media outlets have erroneously reported,” the group said in a statement.

“Heath Mello has introduced and supported anti-choice legislation during his time at the Nebraska Unicameral, and Planned Parenthood Voters of Nebraska strongly opposed him when he took such actions,” the statement continues. “Over the course of Heath Mello’s campaign for Omaha Mayor he has said loud and clear he supports Planned Parenthood and wants to protect the work we do. Although he has not started that conversation with us, our door is always open and we welcome the opportunity to start a productive dialogue on how Heath Mello can help us promote and protect access to women’s health care in Nebraska.”


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/omaha-mayoral-candidate-under-fire-says-he-would-never-do-anything-to-restrict-access-to-reproductive-health-care_us_58f8e868e4b018a9ce590a84

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #13)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 03:21 AM

41. Thank you for this

Very helpful information.

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Response to Docreed2003 (Reply #8)


Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:12 AM

9. Because being a "purist" is not a prerequisite for being a progressive/liberal.

It's a difficult choice for many people, can't win them all.

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:17 AM

12. Disagree.

This is not a little purity test.

Anyone is working or wants to work to deny women control over their own bodies is not a progressive/liberal.

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:23 AM

16. Rights of half the population are not negotiable

They are not less important than anger at corporations or the prosperity of white men.

I find your lack of concern disturbing. You may not care about enforced poverty for women through lack of access to reproductive rights, but I do. The result is great equality, legal as well as economic. That is what you are excusing.

Bernie establishes purity tests all the time. He does so in the quote above. Only women's rights don't figure into his test. Neither you or he can pretend to care about equality while insisting that the basic rights of half the population and relegating them to poverty isn't consequential enough to make a priority. The result of such a position is greater inequality. How can Bernie not know that? That argument has been made by women's rights advocates for a very long time.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #16)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:35 AM

20. And its not just the economics

Pregnancy and childbirth can be physically and emotionally very difficult for many woman. Life threatening in some circumstances. If a fetus is nonviable and dependent on a woman for survival, only she gets to say whether it stays or goes. And she owes an explanation to no one.

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Response to JenniferJuniper (Reply #20)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:36 AM

21. True

but I framed it in terms of economic equality because that is what they claim to care about.

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:37 AM

82. Are not progressive ideals a prerequisite to be a progressive?

Are not progressive ideals a prerequisite to be a progressive? Or have we collectively decided the word means only what we want it to mean ant any given time?

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:13 AM

10. reproductive rights is probably THE TOP issue when it comes to women's rights

because if they take away this right the other laws don't help.

it's like how many FDR policies did not help many minorities before civil rights.


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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:30 AM

19. Indeed. How can anyone call an anti-choice dem a "progressive"

Sanders voiced his support for Mello in a statement published Wednesday by the Wall Street Journal. “If this fellow wins in Nebraska, that would be a shot across the board, that in a state like Nebraska a progressive Democrat can win, that will give hope to folks in other conservative states that perhaps they can win as well,” he said.

https://rewire.news/article/2017/04/20/why-is-dnc-embracing-aggressively-anti-choice-democrat/

And, not sure about Pro-Choice Dem, Jon Ossoff, in Georgia




What the hell is so progressive about being anti-choice? It's Regressive.

Joe Ossoff's Progressive Creds..

CRIMINAL JUSTICE
When it comes to crime in America, we need to rethink our priorities. Jon is an experienced investigator who has successfully targeted organized criminals and corrupt officials.

Violent crime, murder, rape, human trafficking, and corruption are rampant, while we spend billions locking up nonviolent drug offenders.

It just doesn’t make sense.

Jon will introduce legislation to empower task forces at the Department of Justice dedicated to fighting organized crime and political corruption. He will work to give law enforcement the tools and resources they need to take down organized criminals wherever they are.

Jon will work to reduce mass incarceration of nonviolent offenders, which punishes taxpayers and wastes American lives.

THE ENVIRONMENT
Jon will be informed by scientists, not lobbyists, when it comes to environmental policy, and he will work to make Georgia a clean energy economic powerhouse.

There is a clear scientific consensus that climate change is driven by human activity and that it threatens global prosperity, health, and security. This is not just the opinion of activists; it is the studied conclusion of our country’s distinguished scientists. Our military and intelligence agencies agree. Jon will oppose efforts to undo the climate change agreement reached last year in Paris and will work to make the United States a global leader against climate change.

Clean air and clean water are not controversial. They are essential to our health, our prosperity, and our quality of life. Jon will oppose and investigate failures to enforce environmental laws. He will support our national parks and work to conserve America’s treasured wildlife and natural beauty.
and more....

https://electjon.com/priorities/

fun n serious https://www.democraticunderground.com/10028953182

I go with Jon Ossoff

Thank you for your thoughtful OP, Bains

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:41 AM

22. K & R

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:42 AM

23. I just got a hide on this issue so am gunshy

But there are economic disagreements we are all cool with. Minimum wage levels, guaranteed income(I am opposed), taxation levels, the nature of guaranteed health care. We can and should disagree and fight like hell for our positions but then comprise on the one we all hate but can agree on. It's the American way!

But compromise on basic human rights? Hell no!! No one will tell my wife what she can do with her body!!

What's next, lighten up on civil rights to win seats in Mississippi?

Someone just jumped the shark. And ironically he is from a landlocked state.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:44 AM

25. All good questions about the future, based on past behaviors, NOT the past primary

Uncle Bernie's a bit set in his ways, but maybe if all his female admirers email him and let him know, maybe he can learn something new for him.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #25)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:48 AM

26. That is what I am hoping.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #26)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:50 AM

27. Someone didn't get it

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 01:04 AM

30. Everyone, except GOP fascists, are pro life

will help people in need from birth to the aged. Fascists use the anti abortion movement as a way to get fanatics to vote for them, the kind who blow up doctors offices or burn crosses, the same way they use religion.

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Response to elmac (Reply #30)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 01:07 AM

31. I think you mean pro-choice

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)


Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #33)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 01:26 AM

35. Keeping ones mouth shut is not best

There is no reason Bernie needs to be involved in an Omaha mayoral race. Of all the candidates seeking office around the country, he has chosen to support Mello. He continues to communicate that women's reproductive rights are not important to his progressive movement. The result is his supports are starting to adopt that position. That means that progresivism is becoming about increased wealth for men and greater legal and economic inequality for women. How is being silent the appropriate response to that? The issue is not who becomes mayor of Omaha. That has zero impact on the Democratic Party or anyone outside Nebraska. The issue is how Bernie is positioning himself ideologically in regard to women's rights and how he influences his supporters.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 01:25 AM

34. I think it's fine to be pro life as long as you don't impose your beliefs on others.

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Response to Kablooie (Reply #34)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 06:23 AM

56. The is how I feel abou t it, too.

I really have mixed feelings and just have to look at each case separately. But I would never tell someone else what to think or feel.

I don't even kill the mice in my house . It is a difficult issue for me.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 01:36 AM

37. i'm progressive and pro life, pro choice -

i am not opposed to abortion rights. i refuse to give anti-abortionists the moniker "pro-life" - it doesn't fit. most of them don't give a rat's ass about the life once it's born.

i really wish we could get that term gone when it comes to anti-abortionists.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #37)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 03:29 AM

42. They are "anti-choice" and we are Pro Choice..

it's simple.

It's a choice that women need to be able to make for their own bodies.. not have a bunch of men up there telling what to do with their bodies and deciding their future.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #37)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:43 AM

85. I totally agree with you. Pro-life fits pro-choice Democrats better than...

It does anti-choice, pro-war, pro-death penalty, anti-safety net, etc Republicans. They're pro-forced birth not pro-LIFE.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 01:43 AM

38. Some "progressives" are pro-gun...

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #38)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 02:02 AM

39. Yes, well that's another issue

Where the rights of the privileged are valued over the lives of others.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 03:47 AM

43. Letter sent

Anyone can look at my posts and see where I stand. Ive defended Bernie on the Ossoff thing. I think he is well within reasonable bounds on that issue, and the attacks on him on that front are ridiculous and counterproductive.

In the articles and posts I'm seeing, There seems to be some contradictions as to what is going on with this Mello. Im still unsure and looking for better information.

But you are definitely not wrong in your overarching message. Bernie should not be supporting candidates who will enact antichoice governance, nor should any other "progressive".

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Response to quakerboy (Reply #43)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 04:12 AM

44. Awesome!

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #44)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 04:39 AM

45. Meh. Thats baseline.

Its a problem, and as someone who is firmly committed to trying to change the party, and who thinks the most likely way for this to happen is with support of Bernie and associated persons, I think holding them accountable is a pretty basic part of my involvement.

I won't lie. I rather hope there's a better explanation than what I've seen. And the variance of reporting and relative lack of detail gives me some hope that the situation may not be so clear cut as its being presented. For instance, if Mello has had a "come to Jesus" moment and changed his position on choice.. I would still be uneasy about the situation, but I could buy a "thats the best we can do in Nebraska" argument. Or if his position has been overstated or misstated.. I am open to being better informed. But in the end, if he is wrong, he is wrong on a very important issue, and progressives should not be going out of their way to support him. Even in a red state, we can do better than that.

It should be about the values and ideals and ideas that all intersect to make up what we call progressive. We may make more progress for one group or another under different leaders with different focus and talents, but thats far different than accepting backwards movement for anyone.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 04:43 AM

46. The term is "anti-choice."

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #46)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 05:49 PM

132. What are you going to do about the issue?

Will you contact Bernie?

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 05:22 AM

48. I agree with you.

Choice is not negotiable.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #48)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 10:57 AM

100. Will you contact Bernie on this?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #100)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 05:33 PM

130. He's not my Senator, nor am I a target of "Democratic Outreach" -already being a Democrat, but sure.

As you may have noticed, I rarely shut up about my opinions on stuff.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #130)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 05:47 PM

131. You supported him

Likely contributed to his campaign. His standing is not just in VT. He positions himself nationally. He can't know what his supporters think if they don't let his office know.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 05:28 AM

49. You cannot be antichoice and progressive

The right for a woman to choose to have an abortion is a fundamental human right. If you don't believe that then you cannot be a progressive. It's one of a handful of issues that are deal breakers.

Sure, there are many issues that we may not all agree on. But I think in general human rights issues are non-negotiable.

I worry that in 2018 we will see many small d democrats running in typically conservative that will pick and choose their progressive positions. I'm not sure how helpful it will be if we start electing antichoice democrats.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 05:30 AM

50. Anti- choice, please, not pro-life

Otherwise, I agree with you completely.

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Response to lillypaddle (Reply #50)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 05:38 AM

51. A much more apt description

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 05:58 AM

52. To a small an sad group it's an economics only equation.

Social justice be damned. It's clear as could be and progressive should not be attached to them. This is personal.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 06:07 AM

53. Tim Kaine (D-Va.), has expressed personal opposition to abortion rights


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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #53)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 06:48 AM

60. As has Biden, but they are also 100% pro choice

That is the difference.

I am shocked seeing you defend this guy in numerous threads by using this disingenuous statement.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #60)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 06:52 AM

66. I'm surprised you think Kaine was pro-choice


OOPS!

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/tim-kaine-abortion-predicament-225053

But he hasn’t always advanced policies directly in line with those of abortion rights advocacy groups. He pledged in his 2005 gubernatorial campaign to reduce the number of terminated pregnancies in the state by promoting adoption and abstinence-focused education. That cycle, the state NARAL chapter ripped Kaine’s GOP opponent, Jerry Kilgore, as “an extremely anti-choice candidate” but still withheld its endorsement of Kaine because he “embraces many of the restrictions on a woman’s right to choose.”

In a 2007 NARAL scorecard, Kaine was described as a “mixed-choice” governor and his state got an F grade thanks in part to a number of laws and other policies restricting access to abortions. Two years later, Kaine upset both local and national reproductive rights groups by signing a law that authorized the sale of customized “Choose Life” license plates. Kaine argued he was supporting free speech, but his critics complained that the law would fund pro-life organizations and didn’t square with another very important hat that he was wearing at the time: Obama’s personally picked head of the Democratic National Committee.

Kaine brings many other attributes as a running mate, including a widely respected reputation for bipartisanship, after serving just under four years in the Senate, and his own proven political chops winning three straight statewide races in the critical battleground of Virginia. But the hot button issue of abortion, where he has a much more nuanced stance than many of his fellow Democrats, is the baggage he carries.

“People use labels all the time,” Kaine explained in a recent interview on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” an exchange emblematic of the challenge he faces in talking about a politically volatile topic where his religion conflicts with his policy stance. “I’m kind of a traditional Catholic. Personally, I’m opposed to abortion, and personally, I’m opposed to the death penalty.”


Kaine and Mello are both Catholics.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #66)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 02:08 PM

112. "I strongly support the right of women to make their own health and reproductive decisions and...

for that reason, will oppose efforts to weaken or subvert the basic holding of Roe v. Wade. We all share the goal of reducing unwanted pregnancies and abortions. The right way to do this is through education and access to health care and contraception rather than criminalizing women's reproductive decisions."

Tim Kaine

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #112)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 04:07 PM

122. Well back when he was Gov...


http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/tim-kaine-abortion-predicament-225053

By DARREN SAMUELSOHN and DANIEL STRAUSS 07/04/16 07:23 AM EDT

But he hasn’t always advanced policies directly in line with those of abortion rights advocacy groups. He pledged in his 2005 gubernatorial campaign to reduce the number of terminated pregnancies in the state by promoting adoption and abstinence-focused education. That cycle, the state NARAL chapter ripped Kaine’s GOP opponent, Jerry Kilgore, as “an extremely anti-choice candidate” but still withheld its endorsement of Kaine because he “embraces many of the restrictions on a woman’s right to choose.”

In a 2007 NARAL scorecard, Kaine was described as a “mixed-choice” governor and his state got an F grade thanks in part to a number of laws and other policies restricting access to abortions. Two years later, Kaine upset both local and national reproductive rights groups by signing a law that authorized the sale of customized “Choose Life” license plates. Kaine argued he was supporting free speech, but his critics complained that the law would fund pro-life organizations and didn’t square with another very important hat that he was wearing at the time: Obama’s personally picked head of the Democratic National Committee.

Kaine brings many other attributes as a running mate, including a widely respected reputation for bipartisanship, after serving just under four years in the Senate, and his own proven political chops winning three straight statewide races in the critical battleground of Virginia. But the hot button issue of abortion, where he has a much more nuanced stance than many of his fellow Democrats, is the baggage he carries.

“People use labels all the time,” Kaine explained in a recent interview on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” an exchange emblematic of the challenge he faces in talking about a politically volatile topic where his religion conflicts with his policy stance. “I’m kind of a traditional Catholic. Personally, I’m opposed to abortion, and personally, I’m opposed to the death penalty.”

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #66)

Sat Apr 22, 2017, 06:23 PM

135. he gets

a 100% rating from NARAL and PPAF; pro choice

and 0% from NRLC and CFWF; anti choice groups

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #135)

Sat Apr 22, 2017, 07:31 PM

141. Not until he got in the US Senate as Gov, he was anti-abortion as Gov (links included)


That rating your quoting are for 2013-2016 ONLY: https://votesmart.org/candidate/evaluations/50772/tim-kaine


http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/tim-kaine-abortion-predicament-225053

By DARREN SAMUELSOHN and DANIEL STRAUSS 07/04/16 07:23 AM EDT

But he hasn’t always advanced policies directly in line with those of abortion rights advocacy groups. He pledged in his 2005 gubernatorial campaign to reduce the number of terminated pregnancies in the state by promoting adoption and abstinence-focused education. That cycle, the state NARAL chapter ripped Kaine’s GOP opponent, Jerry Kilgore, as “an extremely anti-choice candidate” but still withheld its endorsement of Kaine because he “embraces many of the restrictions on a woman’s right to choose.”

In a 2007 NARAL scorecard, Kaine was described as a “mixed-choice” governor and his state got an F grade thanks in part to a number of laws and other policies restricting access to abortions. Two years later, Kaine upset both local and national reproductive rights groups by signing a law that authorized the sale of customized “Choose Life” license plates. Kaine argued he was supporting free speech, but his critics complained that the law would fund pro-life organizations and didn’t square with another very important hat that he was wearing at the time: Obama’s personally picked head of the Democratic National Committee.

Kaine brings many other attributes as a running mate, including a widely respected reputation for bipartisanship, after serving just under four years in the Senate, and his own proven political chops winning three straight statewide races in the critical battleground of Virginia. But the hot button issue of abortion, where he has a much more nuanced stance than many of his fellow Democrats, is the baggage he carries.

Major abortion rights groups and some of their allies on Capitol Hill are tip-toeing around the prospect of a Clinton-Kaine ticket.

DNC chair infuriates abortion backers: http://www.politico.com/story/2009/03/dnc-chair-infuriates-abortion-backers-020686

Tim Kaine, the Virginia governor and President Barack Obama's hand-picked choice as the head of the Democratic National Committee, infuriated abortion-rights groups Monday by signing legislation that gives abortion foes a long-sought victory.

Kaine brushed off intense lobbying by abortion rights supporters in Richmond to sign a bill that allows Virginia motorists to advertise their anti-abortion views by sporting "Choose Life" specialty license plates.

The revenue from the specialty plates would go to crisis-pregnancy centers, which many abortion-rights backers believe proslyetize against abortion and encourage women to keep unwanted children.

If Kaine were merely the governor of the Old Dominion, the move might have been less notable. Kaine—a Catholic who says he is personally opposed to abortion but pledged to leave the right to choose intact—won office in Virginia partly by seeking to reassure social conservatives.

Abortion Rights Group in Va. Skips Gubernatorial Endorsement: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/16/AR2005081601329.html

By Michael D. Shear
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 17, 2005

RICHMOND, Aug. 16 -- The Virginia chapter of NARAL Pro-Choice America said Tuesday that it will not endorse any candidate in this fall's governor's race, citing a lack of support for abortion rights among the two leading candidates.

The group endorsed Democrats for lieutenant governor, attorney general and most delegate races but said Democratic Lt. Gov. Timothy M. Kaine failed to earn its backing for governor because of his support for some abortion restrictions.

The group condemned Republican gubernatorial candidate Jerry W. Kilgore as an "extremely anti-choice" candidate, and it charged that he would sign legislation to criminalize abortion and restrict access to contraceptives if given the chance.

"Tim Kaine . . . has said he would not sign such legislation, but he embraces many of the restrictions on a woman's right to choose that are opposed by NARAL," the group's statement said. "We cannot therefore offer any endorsement in this year's race for governor."

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/06/hillary-clinton-2016-vp-pick-tim-kaine-213997: “Picking Kaine, a centrist, DLC [the now-defunct Democratic Leadership Council] Democrat, who happens to have some scary positions on abortion and the deficit,

Plenty more info on this with Goggle!

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #60)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 02:10 PM

114. You are, of course, correct. Anyone saying otherwise has ulterior motives for doing so. nt

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #53)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 06:51 AM

65. Kaine is opposed to abortion RIGHTS? Or just to abortions? Can you clarify?

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #65)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 06:54 AM

67. Sure


http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/tim-kaine-abortion-predicament-225053

But he hasn’t always advanced policies directly in line with those of abortion rights advocacy groups. He pledged in his 2005 gubernatorial campaign to reduce the number of terminated pregnancies in the state by promoting adoption and abstinence-focused education. That cycle, the state NARAL chapter ripped Kaine’s GOP opponent, Jerry Kilgore, as “an extremely anti-choice candidate” but still withheld its endorsement of Kaine because he “embraces many of the restrictions on a woman’s right to choose.”

In a 2007 NARAL scorecard, Kaine was described as a “mixed-choice” governor and his state got an F grade thanks in part to a number of laws and other policies restricting access to abortions. Two years later, Kaine upset both local and national reproductive rights groups by signing a law that authorized the sale of customized “Choose Life” license plates. Kaine argued he was supporting free speech, but his critics complained that the law would fund pro-life organizations and didn’t square with another very important hat that he was wearing at the time: Obama’s personally picked head of the Democratic National Committee.

Kaine brings many other attributes as a running mate, including a widely respected reputation for bipartisanship, after serving just under four years in the Senate, and his own proven political chops winning three straight statewide races in the critical battleground of Virginia. But the hot button issue of abortion, where he has a much more nuanced stance than many of his fellow Democrats, is the baggage he carries.

“People use labels all the time,” Kaine explained in a recent interview on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” an exchange emblematic of the challenge he faces in talking about a politically volatile topic where his religion conflicts with his policy stance. “I’m kind of a traditional Catholic. Personally, I’m opposed to abortion, and personally, I’m opposed to the death penalty.”


Kaine and Mello are both Catholics.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #67)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 06:59 AM

69. Again... is he opposed to abortions or abortion RIGHTS? There's a difference.

Your quick cut and paste didn't really answer the question.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #69)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:03 AM

70. How did you miss it?

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/tim-kaine-abortion-predicament-225053

But he hasn’t always advanced policies directly in line with those of abortion rights advocacy groups. He pledged in his 2005 gubernatorial campaign to reduce the number of terminated pregnancies in the state by promoting adoption and abstinence-focused education. That cycle, the state NARAL chapter ripped Kaine’s GOP opponent, Jerry Kilgore, as “an extremely anti-choice candidate” but still withheld its endorsement of Kaine because he “embraces many of the restrictions on a woman’s right to choose.”

In a 2007 NARAL scorecard, Kaine was described as a “mixed-choice” governor and his state got an F grade thanks in part to a number of laws and other policies restricting access to abortions. Two years later, Kaine upset both local and national reproductive rights groups by signing a law that authorized the sale of customized “Choose Life” license plates. Kaine argued he was supporting free speech, but his critics complained that the law would fund pro-life organizations and didn’t square with another very important hat that he was wearing at the time: Obama’s personally picked head of the Democratic National Committee.

Kaine brings many other attributes as a running mate, including a widely respected reputation for bipartisanship, after serving just under four years in the Senate, and his own proven political chops winning three straight statewide races in the critical battleground of Virginia. But the hot button issue of abortion, where he has a much more nuanced stance than many of his fellow Democrats, is the baggage he carries.

“People use labels all the time,” Kaine explained in a recent interview on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” an exchange emblematic of the challenge he faces in talking about a politically volatile topic where his religion conflicts with his policy stance. “I’m kind of a traditional Catholic. Personally, I’m opposed to abortion, and personally, I’m opposed to the death penalty.”


Kaine and Mello are both Catholics.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #70)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:13 AM

72. Let me ask it this way: Does Kaine want to outlaw abortion? (Yes or no.)

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #72)


Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #74)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:22 AM

77. I'm not getting that.

He's more sophisticated and nuanced that you're giving him credit for.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #77)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:28 AM

79. Just like Mello



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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #79)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:29 AM

80. Nope.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #79)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 10:50 AM

97. Your continued excuses that the rights of half the population

aren't worth your doing anything about are repugnant. You make false equivalencies to excuse utter disregard for equal rights and economic justice. You have answered the question I posed in the OP. Now I know that I cannot count on you to stand up for legal and economic equality.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #97)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 02:22 PM

117. It's telling, isn't it? nt

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #117)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 04:17 PM

126. It's a way to justify

promoting male privilege at the expensse of equal rights and economic justice. It shows they do not value what they claim.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #74)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:23 AM

78. BULLSHIT! Kaine protected abortion rights in VA as governor and as a Senator.

Tim Kaine has a lifetime rating of 100% from NARAL & Planned Parenthood.

Look up the facts before smearing Democrats.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #78)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:41 AM

84. Thank you! It's always good to have truthful information.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #84)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:43 AM

86. Anytime. Those were the exact same smears that popped up when HRC picked Kaine to be her VP

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Response to FSogol (Reply #86)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 08:03 AM

88. I believe that the smear was self-deleted for "strategic" reasons. Not because ...

... the poster personally believed that their post was wrong. [A reliable source sent me a PM to tell me that when the poster learned that someone had alerted on his post, he decided to delete it rather than take the risk of having it removed by a jury.]

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #88)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 08:30 AM

90. I don't even get why Kaine is being raised,

AFAIK progressives disliked him as VP choice. He's not exactly a progressive stalwart in their eyes.

The point here for me is the selective choice of so called "wedge issues" to be "pragmatic" over. Shock of shockers that we have to fashion our message district by district, shock of shockers that politics is sometimes complex. If Bernie's conditional is to support progressive Democrats and progressive Democrats alone, Mello is a strange endorsement. If progressives who took issue with Kaine are happy with Sanders stomping for Mello, they should have had no issue with Clinton picking Kaine for "pragmatic" reasons even though any equivalence between mello and kaine is ridiculous.

But I'm happy people are realising that ideology and political views exist in a continuum and gray areas exist in politics. Funny how that escaped the understanding of so many last year

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Response to JHan (Reply #90)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 11:43 AM

106. The go to when justifying questionable choices

is to say something else did it, yet at other times we are told that Bernie is better, more decent, and more progressive than the rest. It's a cop out.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #106)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:03 PM

108. whataboutisms and sophistries.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #78)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 05:03 PM

127. Major abortion rights groups and some of their allies on Capitol Hill are tip-toeing around....


That rating only applies to to his US Senate record starting in 2013. This article goes back to 2005.

I looked it up this morning: https://votesmart.org/candidate/evaluations/50772/tim-kaine

Again read his record BEFORE he got to the Senate.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/tim-kaine-abortion-predicament-225053

By DARREN SAMUELSOHN and DANIEL STRAUSS 07/04/16 07:23 AM EDT

Snip: But he hasn’t always advanced policies directly in line with those of abortion rights advocacy groups. He pledged in his 2005 gubernatorial campaign to reduce the number of terminated pregnancies in the state by promoting adoption and abstinence-focused education. That cycle, the state NARAL chapter ripped Kaine’s GOP opponent, Jerry Kilgore, as “an extremely anti-choice candidate” but still withheld its endorsement of Kaine because he “embraces many of the restrictions on a woman’s right to choose.”

In a 2007 NARAL scorecard, Kaine was described as a “mixed-choice” governor and his state got an F grade thanks in part to a number of laws and other policies restricting access to abortions. Two years later, Kaine upset both local and national reproductive rights groups by signing a law that authorized the sale of customized “Choose Life” license plates. Kaine argued he was supporting free speech, but his critics complained that the law would fund pro-life organizations and didn’t square with another very important hat that he was wearing at the time: Obama’s personally picked head of the Democratic National Committee.

Kaine brings many other attributes as a running mate, including a widely respected reputation for bipartisanship, after serving just under four years in the Senate, and his own proven political chops winning three straight statewide races in the critical battleground of Virginia. But the hot button issue of abortion, where he has a much more nuanced stance than many of his fellow Democrats, is the baggage he carries.

Snip: Major abortion rights groups and some of their allies on Capitol Hill are tip-toeing around the prospect of a Clinton-Kaine ticket.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #65)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 02:09 PM

113. He is pro-choice. See my quote from Kaine above. nt

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #113)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 02:13 PM

115. Thank you very much! Unfortunately...

... there are some participating in this thread who appear to have an agenda that involves muddying the waters and spreading disinformation that smears good Democrats.

I very much appreciate your contribution and for replying to my question.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #53)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 10:18 AM

92. That is not the same at all

They do not sponsor or vote for legislation that restrict women's rights.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 06:09 AM

54. I saw were Bernie sent out a tweet about too many cars

and yachts own by people, but nothing about women able to own their own bodies. I really don't care if someone has a yacht, but right now there are women who are trying to figure out how they can get an abortion, access to BC, even just getting a pap smear...because women's reproductive health issues are a scary thing in some states...I think Bernie needs to focus on what is important, and it's not how many cars you own.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 06:19 AM

55. Does he think that women's rights are negotiable? (It's a valid question.)

If so, why is this viewpoint accepted by anyone? Why is anyone making dismissing it or making excuses for it?





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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 06:43 AM

57. It isn't a black and white issue and isn't the most important issue to many people...

I'll probably get lambasted for this so probably won't read the replies, but to me abortion is not a black and white issue...It is a giant gray area and most people try to navigate our personal beliefs with those trying to make it a one size fits all policy on either side. I think abortion is ok a lot of the time and I think it is not ok some of the time but don't think it should just be ok or not ok overall and would probably not vote for a candidate that wanted to outlaw abortion or make it legal across the board for any reason.

Which brings me to the second point...Abortion rights are pretty far down on my list of priorities so for me and many other people that alone probably wouldnt make or break a candidate for me.

I have always voted for Democrats and progressive my entire life and I'm sure I will long into the future.

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Response to cbdo2007 (Reply #57)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 06:49 AM

62. Choice is 100% a black and white issue

Anyone who thinks it isn't is not a progressive, and is, at best, privileged AF. AT BEST.

Non negotiable plank.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #62)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 08:23 AM

89. See agree to disagree I guess.

Regardless of our differences on this issue, you and I are still going to be voting for the same people hoping for a better future.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 06:45 AM

58. Because one does not understand that reproductive freedom is necessary for economic justice

Because one is still stuck in a view of the world most of us have thankfully moved on from.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 06:45 AM

59. They can't -- an anti choicer cannot be a progressive

Period.

And, only someone very, very male privileged would say that.

Period.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #59)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 06:49 AM

61. Or... someone who was a complete fraud.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #61)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 06:50 AM

63. And also that!!!

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 06:50 AM

64. I've wrestled with that question my whole adult life.

I believe in a culture of life. That leads me to oppose euthanasia, abortion, capital punishment, and unjust wars. I also believe Mill was write when he wrote "Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."

At the end of the day it is up to the individual to make up his or her mind about these issues free from the heavy hand of the state. All I can do is use moral suasion.


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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 06:54 AM

68. I agree completely.

And why go all out for a Mayor's race? Better places for money and influence.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:04 AM

71. K&R

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:16 AM

73. Abortion rights are not a wedge issue

This cannot be said enough.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:22 AM

76. How often does he side with the states Chamber of Commerce and Industry?

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:34 AM

81. Sanders lacks any political instincts. It's okay, he's an outsider.

 

But we should not deploy him in situations where politics depends on subtlety and nuance.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:39 AM

83. Not progressive

It is against people's basic rights to their own bodies. I don't care if a Dem has a personal belief that is not supportive of abortion, so long as they keep that to themselves and give others their rights also.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 07:44 AM

87. A pro-choice agenda goes nowhere

when Democrats are the minority party and Republicans control the chamber.

The party in the majority controls the chamber in just about every meaningful way. When Republicans are in the majority the so-called "pro-life" agenda gains power. When Democrats are in the majority it doesn't.

Vote Democrat.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 08:33 AM

91. I don't think that's possible.

Progressivism is an overall philosophy that embraces all human rights for all individuals. That must include reproductive rights for women. Nobody who is anti-abortion can call him or herself a progressive, it seems to me.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 10:45 AM

95. I counter that with: How can someone drive a Prius with a Trump bumper sticker?

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Response to Initech (Reply #95)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 10:52 AM

98. This isn't about random oddities

It is about whether progressives care enough about civil rights and economic justice to do this.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8958403

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 10:47 AM

96. Easy

Being progressive IS being "Pro-life" (and it's time we reclaim that from people whom are really just anti-abortion). I think that the question really is, Can you be progressive and ANTI-ABORTION? And I still think that you could- I think that you can be (personally) opposed to abortion, but still support a woman's right to choose and, of course, not support legislation restricting it or attacking Planned Parenthood. If I remember correctly, our last VP candidate, Tim Kaine, was opposed to abortion, but still supported the right to choose, which I guess technically makes him "Pro-Choice" but just about everybody is really "Pro-life" in the sense that nobody is technically "Anti-Life" (and nobody is really "Pro-Abortion" either).

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #96)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 10:57 AM

99. That is not Mello's record

The question I posed is whether progressives--including you-- care enough about civil rights and economic justice to do this. https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8958403

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 11:05 AM

101. (I call it Anti-choice, not pro-life.) You can't -- and I'm disappointed in Bernie!

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 11:05 AM

102. Great question

I don't like the concept of defining people over a single issue but I can see no way around it.

There is no logical argument against abortion. There is only a religious argument which means those who are anti-abortion seek to impose their religious belief on others. I don't see how one can square a desire to impose their religious belief on others with liberalism.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 11:07 AM

103. When you seek to curtail or end reproductive rights...

 

... you are not progressive. You can still be a Democrat but you are not progressive. Makes me wonder what other rights are negotiable for some individuals.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 11:08 AM

104. K&R

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 11:10 AM

105. I was pointed here by a respose to an OP of mine by the author of this one.

I think this is a fair and constructive debate to have. Without vouching for every post made in reply to this OP, I do not group this in with some other threads that I suspect exist mostly for the sake of being negative toward Sanders. No one needs me saying so to validate the truth, but I fully think the concerns raised here are legitimate.

Here is what I had written in the dialog I was having with BainBane:

"I admit to being bedeviled, to an extent, by all litmus test issues. I believe in them but then sometimes it is hard to thread through the mine field of eliminators they present to end up with a viable candidate to oppose a Republican who violates a slew of litmus test issues him or herself. Both Clinton and Sanders had exceptionally good records on "woman's issues" in Congress. Both offered leadership in that regard, but I agree that Hillary offered by far the most leadership of the two. Still Hillary has supported Pro-Life candidates in the past. Bob Casey, the Democratic Senator from PA, is one of them. In 2016Casey worked as a surrogate for Hillary:

"Soft-spoken Bob Casey grows into role as surrogate"

...But the Scranton native known for his mild manner has taken on a sharper tone as he stumps for Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton, who also has ties to northeastern Pennsylvania. Casey is a top Democrat in a battleground state, making his advocacy even more crucial to her campaign...

Casey already has backed Clinton during her appearances here, with introductions at events in the primary and by promoting her remarks on terrorism following her event in Pittsburgh last month..."
http://www.mcall.com/news/local/elections/mc-democratic-convention-bob-casey-clinton-20160726-story.html

Ed Reendell, former DNC Chair, Pennsylvania Governor and long time close associate of Hillary praised Casey's Democratic credentials in light of his "pro-life" position just a few weeks ago in this interview (embedded video of MSNBC interview at this ink):

"Ed Rendell Exposes Casey’s Recent Leftward Shift"
https://www.americarisingpac.org/ed-rendell-exposes-caseys-recent-leftward-shift/

Whether to support Omaha Mayor candidate Heath Mello may not be the easiest call, as a case in point for litmus tests. Bernie isn't alone in doing so however, the DC under Tom Perez does too. Here is Mello's recent comment:
The Democratic candidate for mayor of Omaha, Nebraska, told The Huffington Post on Thursday that if elected, he “would never do anything to restrict access to reproductive health care.”.

The HuffPo story offers a good overview of the controversy:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/omaha-mayoral-candidate-under-fire-says-he-would-never-do-anything-to-restrict-access-to-reproductive-health-care_us_58f8e868e4b018a9ce590a84 "

In the case of Mello, Sanders responded to a request from the Nebraska Democratic Party to campaign on his behalf. Unlike the Atlanta suburbs, Nebraska is the exact type of area where support from Sanders can help swing an election. The National Democratic Party, through the DNC, has also swung it's support behind Mello in this race. So here we have the highest bodies representing both the State and National Democratic Parties on record in support of Mello. The Teachers Union in Omaha is behind Mello also. I suspect that most folks at the local level think that Mello will govern from closer to a progressive position than would his Republican opponent. He now feels the heat of pro choice Democrats and it seems from his most recent statements that he is scurrying to find his way closer to the stance taken by other personally "pro-life" Democrats who fully support a woman's right to choose.

I honestly welcome having this larger debate about where and when we as Democrats should draw a bright red line, particularly in bright red regions of our nation. If it becomes only about being critical of Bernie Sanders for taking the same stance that the official Democratic Party does, I think we are missing a chance to have an open honest exchange on this.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #105)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 04:14 PM

123. I'll respond later

but I will say I find the whataboutism argument a path to the bottom.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 11:50 AM

107. Better subject, "How can one claim to be a progressive while not being pro choice?"

This is another one of those places where some bad position has co-opted a good idea/group. A lot of progressives are pro life.... against the death penalty, for adequate health care for all.

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #107)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 01:59 PM

110. I posted this OP for a very specific purpose

women's reproductive rights and if progressives hear care enough about equal rights and economic justice to tell Bernie his campaigning for pro-life politicians is not acceptable. I didn't post it so you could tell me what really matters, how my concerns aren't the right subject. This is current and specific, not abstract. The only question now is whether you care enough to contact Bernie, or if you are going to distract from the subject.

If you haven't yet read the OP, please do so now.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #110)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 03:09 PM

119. ???? I simply asked that we all use one of two....

... synonyms for the same idea. "For Pro-Life" and "and "against Pro-Choice" mean the same thing in the political arena. But the former suggests that Progressives don't value life. That we're not against the death penalty, and starvation, etc. etc. I wasn't arguing against your OP at all.

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #119)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 04:15 PM

124. And I asked you to pay attention to women's rights

Yet you refuse to do so.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #124)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 04:17 PM

125. How do I refuse to do so? I just want people to say....

.... "against pro-choice" instead of "for pro-life" when describing anti-abortion sentiment. What do you think I'm saying?????

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #125)

Sat Apr 22, 2017, 06:34 PM

137. I agree that "pro-life" is a lie. What they really are is "anti-choice" and "anti-woman".

Calling them "pro-life" allows them to frame their argument as something compassionate, when compassion is precisely what they lack when it comes to the women they want to force into botched abortions and dangerous childbirths.

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Response to athena (Reply #137)

Sun Apr 23, 2017, 01:20 PM

143. Thanks for re-stating so well!! nt

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #110)

Sat Apr 22, 2017, 06:28 PM

136. LAS14 is just objecting to the word "pro-life".

They're not disagreeing with you -- just with the word "pro-life" to refer to someone who doesn't care about the life of the woman they want to force into a dangerous medical procedure against her will.

FWIW, I agree that we need to stop using their word. Instead of "pro-life", we should call them what they really are, which is "anti-choice", or more specifically, "anti-woman".

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 01:52 PM

109. THANK YOU, BB

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 03:13 PM

120. Suppose they are consistent

I knew a Democratic senator who was passionate on every liberal issue but choice. I heard him say "they only care until they're born" in reference to republicans. He opposed abortion and the death penalty.
He had an agreement with other Democrats to not sponsor or co-sponsor anti-choice bills. But he abstained on some votes.
Obviously I wished he was pro-choice. But his fight on other things offered some balance. He represented a rural district and has since been replaced by a republican.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 05:24 PM

128. Thank you Bains.

This needed to be said.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Apr 21, 2017, 05:27 PM

129. By "Pro-Life" you mean "anti-abortion", not someone wanting to outlaw the death penalty, or

provide life-saving medical treatments to the indigent, or set up rescue patrols to save drowning refugees, or anything life-affirming at all, right? You just mean that if a woman's life is endangered by a pregnancy, nobody should be allowed to save her, and she should just passively accept death, leaving her existing children, if any, motherless? Do I understand the meaning of "Pro-Life" correctly here -- sort of an Orwellian 1984-style inversion of meaning?

So, then, yeah, that doesn't sound too progressive. Probably the answer to "How could they" has to be "ignorance", then, if such a person really is good-hearted and progressive in other ways. People fall for propaganda when they don't have access to solid information. A naive person might have never heard of hydrocephalus, ectopic pregnancy, rheumatic fever, or any of the other myriad life-threatening conditions that can kill pregnant women. They might know nothing about crippling birth defects that cause infants to suffer and die. They probably never stopped to wonder why the propagandists claiming deep concern for unborn children seem to have no feelings of concern at all for the well-being of anyone beyond the instant of birth.

If someone is naive and not too bright, such a person might fall for all manner of nonsense. That is why advertising is all around us. That is how pseudo-religious demagogues get money and power selling lies to naive victims (Christian, Muslim, any religion can fall prey to this misguidance). That is how the worst examples of humanity can seize control of governments even when there is voting. Evil people peddle lies for personal gain, and there are usually plenty of naive, well-meaning people who fall for their cleverly spun webs of lies. Indeed, someone "progressive" -- someone who is innately good-hearted -- if they also are not too bright, such people are more easily deceived, because being good-hearted themselves, they do not realize how very evil and manipulative some others can be. The idea that a bad element in society is using anti-abortion laws entirely for the purpose of keeping women under control -- such an idea simply would not occur to a naive good-hearted person, and if the idea is pointed out to them, they might find it far-fetched and unlikely, unless it is explained to them very well. That is "how".

Don't call it "Pro-Life". It is anything but. It is a stance that seeks to suck the life force out of us all. The terminology "Pro-Life" is a classic case of the "Big Lie". The accurate terminology would be "Anti-Abortion".

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Response to ColemanMaskell (Reply #129)

Sat Apr 22, 2017, 06:39 PM

138. Exactly. But it's not even "anti-abortion"; it's "anti-choice" and "anti-woman".

After all, one can be anti-abortion and pro-choice at the same time. (No one is being forced to have an abortion.)

I am always amazed that so-called "pro-lifers" don't give a damn about the life of the woman they want to force into an unwanted pregnancy and quite possibly a dangerous delivery. As far as they're concerned, the woman is not a life; she's just a vessel for the precious fetus they think is much more important.

It occurs to me that another option would be to call them "so-called pro-lifers".

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Response to ColemanMaskell (Reply #129)

Sat Apr 22, 2017, 07:10 PM

140. Fair enough

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)



Response to QC (Reply #144)

Sun Apr 23, 2017, 01:26 PM

145. The DNC has decided otherwise

Sorry to disappoint you.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #145)

Sun Apr 23, 2017, 01:34 PM

146. You're not disappointing me.

But the selective outrage over this issue isn't fooling anyone.

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Response to QC (Reply #144)

Sun Apr 23, 2017, 04:29 PM

148. How interesting (NOT) that a right-leaning blog didn't post Rep Pelosi's ENTIRE comment:

"Of course. I have served many years in Congress with members who have not shared my very positive, my family would say aggressive, position on promoting a woman's right to choose."

Rep Pelosi clearly indicated that she is NOT compromising on the core value of women's sacred civil, human and Constitutional rights.

And there is no "selective outrage" - there is righteous outrage at an individual's pattern of behavior that has shown itself over and over again.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sun Apr 23, 2017, 02:12 PM

147. No.

You can't trample on women's reproductive rights and be progressive/liberal.

Period.

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