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Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:27 AM

Story about 69 year old Dr. David Dao; the man United dragged off the plane

Sorry about the source, the daily mail, but they really have the best pictures and most info that I could find.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4401444/Name-man-hauled-United-flight-Chicago-revealed.html

He is an internal medicine specialist father-of-five, grandfather of one. He is a 69-year-old Vietnamese-American is married to a pediatrician who has a clinic in Elizabethtown, Kentucky - about 40 miles south of Louisville.

Four of his children are doctors:
excerpt from the article:

Their eldest son Tim, 34, practices medicine in Texas; their second son Ben, 31, is a medical graduate; their daughter Christine, 33, is a doctor in Durham, NC; and their youngster daughter Angela, 27, is a medical graduate of the University of Kentucky.




-----

I think the fact that he is from Vietnam may have something to do with the obvious fear he expressed when being yanked off.

This is the DU member formerly known as OKNancy.

267 replies, 38439 views

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Reply Story about 69 year old Dr. David Dao; the man United dragged off the plane (Original post)
OKNancy Apr 2017 OP
exboyfil Apr 2017 #1
Zing Zing Zingbah Apr 2017 #13
cagefreesoylentgreen Apr 2017 #70
Justice Apr 2017 #2
randome Apr 2017 #3
BannonsLiver Apr 2017 #22
randome Apr 2017 #27
atreides1 Apr 2017 #32
randome Apr 2017 #37
LakeArenal Apr 2017 #50
randome Apr 2017 #52
LakeArenal Apr 2017 #53
randome Apr 2017 #55
LakeArenal Apr 2017 #58
Eliot Rosewater Apr 2017 #102
bekkilyn Apr 2017 #105
cannabis_flower Apr 2017 #59
randome Apr 2017 #63
HelenWheels Apr 2017 #67
randome Apr 2017 #71
No Vested Interest Apr 2017 #189
BlancheSplanchnik Apr 2017 #208
JonLP24 Apr 2017 #249
randome Apr 2017 #250
JonLP24 Apr 2017 #251
randome Apr 2017 #252
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liberalhistorian Apr 2017 #259
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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:33 AM

1. All American family

God it can get no worse for United.

Internal medicine specialist who apparently is very concerned about his patients.

Should have offered the college students on the plane some extra fun money. Would have saved a lot of headaches.

$800 Voucher and $200 Cash - Raise my hand.

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Response to exboyfil (Reply #1)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:48 AM

13. Yeah, that was a bad decision for United.

The man had a good reason for staying on the flight. They should have looked for some young people, as you said. A lot of them would have liked the extra cash.

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Response to exboyfil (Reply #1)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:32 AM

70. Well maybe

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:33 AM

2. Such a horrific way to treat any human being

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:34 AM

3. Yeah, he could have been afraid he was about to be deported.

 

That adds some texture to the incident.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:02 AM

22. "How do we know he's a real doctor"

Crow now being served on the Lido Deck.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #22)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:09 AM

27. Not at all. It was a legitimate question.

 

'Typical' doctors don't scream and flail about when confronted by police.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #27)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:14 AM

32. Really?

What exactly is you definition of a 'Typical' doctor?

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #32)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:19 AM

37. One who might state his dilemma rather than scream and fight the police.

 

I suppose I'm biased that way. Of course we don't know if he perhaps did. We don't know anything before or after the video, which gives us a narrow view of what occurred.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #37)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:52 AM

50. Okay Judgey Judgerton... You are right you don't know ...

yet there's your judgement for a "typical doctor". God forbid a doctor should express emotion at being dragged off a plane.

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Response to LakeArenal (Reply #50)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:55 AM

52. His immigration status and past conviction may have made him a little jumpy around the police.

 

As I stated from the start, we did not know all the particulars about this situation. We know more now. I wish there had been video before and after he was forced from the plane so we would know what approach the police used.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #52)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:58 AM

53. Now you are speculating...

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Response to LakeArenal (Reply #53)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:03 AM

55. That's most of what we do on DU.

 

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #55)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:06 AM

58. Speak for yourself speculator...

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Response to LakeArenal (Reply #58)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:10 AM

102. Some people will ALWAYS defend Wall Street and so on.

It is part of our national brainwashing dilemma.

Independent thinkers who dont assume they know everything is what we need, thank you for exhibiting this.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #102)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:11 AM

105. Isn't that the truth. (nt)

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Response to randome (Reply #52)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:08 AM

59. What past conviction?

I didn't see anything in the article about a conviction and haven't heard anything on the news?

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Response to cannabis_flower (Reply #59)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:17 AM

63. He was convicted of selling painkillers. Had his license revoked but re-acquired.

 

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10028917617

That doesn't excuse what occurred but the fact that he refused to leave when ordered by police does make me wonder what was going through his head at the time.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #63)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:27 AM

67. What kind of police

The man wearing jeans and a jacket with Police on it didn't look like an officer to me. And when they approached the doctor did they show their credentials?

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Response to HelenWheels (Reply #67)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:33 AM

71. Yeah, I'm confused about whether they were police or security guards.

 

And we don't know what occurred before or after the video, which gives us a very narrow viewpoint.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #71)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 03:50 PM

189. Apparently they were security guards. nt

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Response to No Vested Interest (Reply #189)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 07:21 PM

208. Hired by UA. In the same way DAPL corp. hired security officers

To "rough up" the Water Protectors "a little".

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Response to randome (Reply #63)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 12:08 PM

249. He paid for his flight

All that is irrelevant because United had no idea who he was when they dragged him and caused physical not to mention emotional injuries. United fucked up as they should keep seats open for emergencies and they should occur at the ticket counter and not when everyone is sitting in their seats.
This is the DU member formerly known as JonLP24.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #249)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 12:50 PM

250. Yes, he paid for a flight, not for a specific seat on a specific plane.

 

I agree his occupation is irrelevant but that was one of the first things pushed in front here on DU. Then there were the rumors that he had patients waiting on him and that he was definitely tased.

And actually, United didn't cause any physical injuries. The police did that and it appears from the video that it resulted from his losing his death-grip on his seat and the officer's momentum causing Dao to hit his head on the opposing row of seats.

I'm just trying to look at things without bias and that's how it appears to me.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #250)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 01:04 PM

251. Both parties are responsible -- United and the Chicago PD.

Like I said this was easily preventable situation if United or keep asking passengers until someone is willing to give it up. Everyone was already in their seats. That's how it looks to me.
This is the DU member formerly known as JonLP24.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #251)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 01:14 PM

252. No company operates without limits on compensation of some sort.

 

This idea that we should encourage the passengers' natural greed to come to the rescue sounds a little Libertarian-ish to me, to be honest.

Mostly I would lay the blame on the police officers or security officers. There seems to be some confusion as to their actual positions.

But United did not try to rough this man up so I also don't understand the need to blame them for what a police officer did.

Neither did the police, imo, it was simply an accident when he lost his death-grip on his chair.

An overused term is "shit happens". When a corporation is involved, that term implies we should all simply follow a corporation's orders and forget about having free will. When a member of a minority is involved, that term implies that minorities should mind their betters.

A corporation and a member of a minority are involved in this situation. Yet even then, sometimes, shit happens. I don't see the need to put the blame squarely on one side or the other. UA should pay this man's medical bills and give him lifetime flying privileges, but the idea that he should somehow end up owning the airline is ridiculous.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #252)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 01:18 PM

253. I'll let the lawsuit sort all this out

If anything he probably doesn't want to fly again. As far as owning the Airline, UA is going to be looking to settle, trust me the law firm will get offers to avoid this going into a court room.
This is the DU member formerly known as JonLP24.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #253)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 01:23 PM

254. I have no doubt that's true.

 

It happened on their watch and their property so they should do what they can to make up for it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #63)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 02:11 PM

259. That was subsequently discovered to be

someone else with the same name, not this doctor. Don't be too quick to believe the corporate and corporate media spin machine. And that's' another thing this doctor can sue for, being smeared like that, because it wouldn't have taken too much work at all to determine they had the wrong person before going public with it.

And it doesn't matter anyway, nothing at all justifies that kind of treatment and his subsequent injuries, which include a concussion. He was not a criminal, he was a paying passenger who needed to be back in Louisville by the next morning to see his patients who were depending on him. He couldn't wait the goddamn 24 hours they were demanding he wait and who the hell would want to have to do that, anyway? I sure wouldn't. They should have just gone on to someone else, for Christ's sake. I'd have been very upset too, if confronted like that. People aren't allowed to be human on airplanes anymore, they're expected to happily and peacefully take any shit shoved at them at all or they're in trouble. What bullshit.

United's lack of preparation and planning is not the problem of its paying customers, including this doctor. The plane was not overbooked. They realized too late that they needed to get four employees to Louisville for other flights, and they realized it AFTER the plane was already fully boarded and set to go and not before. First of all, they should have known a lot sooner than that. Second, they could have rented a car to go the 300 miles from Chicago to Louisville. Anything they could have done will now be a helluva lot cheaper than what it's going to cost them, both in lost revenue from disgusted passengers (and they've already lost over a billion dollars this week alone) and what they'll have to rightfully shell out to this doctor. Take your defense of police state tactics and corporate Profit Uber Alles and shove it.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #259)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 02:18 PM

265. The doctor's identity is irrelevant. And, in fact, it's been 'proven' that the first ID was correct.

 

I only addressed his bonafides since DU was breathlessly proclaiming that not only was he an important man but he no doubt had many desperate patients waiting for his return!

I don't see any 'corporate spin' coming out of the likes of the DailyMail and whatever news source they referenced, I forget the name, somethingCourier? United did not -apparently- have anything to do with publishing details of this man's life.

I don't know how well an airline can plan for weather conditions at all of its hubs in the country. Apparently things had turned so bad that the 4 employees were urgently needed elsewhere. But they should have had another way of getting them there. It was pointed out that if they were pilots, renting a car would not do the trick since there are strict rules in place about # of hours a pilot must sleep before taking command.

Regardless, if there is blame to be apportioned to the actors involved, it seems like the police (or security guards) are the ones to bear the brunt of it, and even then it appears from the video that the injury was an accident.

United did not -so far as we know- direct a guard to injure anyone.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #265)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 02:21 PM

266. No, United shares equal blame.

Its employees didn't need to go nuclear and call the goon squad to deal with what they should have dealt with themselves. There were nearly two hundred other passengers on board, they could have gone on and picked another one. THEY escalated it themselves. It is equally their fault.

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Response to randome (Reply #52)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 04:41 AM

234. Wrong guy, randome

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Response to lillypaddle (Reply #234)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 05:07 AM

237. Nice find!

Thanks also for trying to prevent a smear campaign against him here on DU!

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Response to BlueMTexpat (Reply #237)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 07:43 AM

242. Hey, you're welcome

Ran across it by chance, didn't really know the best place to post it for the highest visibility. Feel free to repost it elsewhere.

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Response to LakeArenal (Reply #50)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:23 AM

122. Exactly. Makes you wonder what other forms of "classification" are going on.

If you catch my drift.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #122)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 01:21 PM

165. I'm drifting with you BannonsLiver..

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Response to randome (Reply #27)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:22 AM

41. Righhhht

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #41)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:45 AM

49. Well, he certainly is NOT a "typical doctor."

Read the other thread about him on this page.

Some not so pretty facts about him. They may have no bearing on this incident, but he certainly is not a typical doctor.
This is the DU member formerly known as cwydro.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #49)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:04 AM

56. Clearly the airline handled this terribly

but I find it strange that he ran back into the plane. If I were dragged off the plane by security - for any reason, I'd be trying to find someone in authority to talk to and complain.

Perhaps he was so disoriented? IDK. If it wasn't something physical (unique to his injury), it's pretty odd. Once you get dragged out of anywhere - for any reason (even the wrong reason), it's hard to think that you would reclaim your seat and the airplane would lift off.

One good thing that might come from all of this is a policy change. Bumping people should be very (VERY) infrequent -

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Response to janterry (Reply #56)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 02:14 PM

170. They let him back on and he was presumably going/running (didn't see that part) back to his seat.

My guess is that they knew they were in the wrong, otherwise they would not have let him back on.

As for how this whole thing came about, this video does a good job of explaining. You can skip to the 1:45 mark where she shows the video and explains the back story.

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Response to janterry (Reply #56)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 05:56 PM

195. Someone seated near him on plane said his head hit the floor and he was out for a bit

Sounds maybe like a concussion. He seemed very disoriented.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #49)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:24 AM

123. And that's relevant to being dragged off a plane by goons how?

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Response to cwydro (Reply #49)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 03:19 PM

186. I'be been working in healthcare for thirty years.

Not sure I understand what a "typical doctor" should act/look like? They are all human and have their own idiosyncrasies. Please explain "typical". Thanks.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #49)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:15 PM

213. And it was pretty evil that those "not so pretty facts" are being used

to discredit him now.

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Response to randome (Reply #27)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:06 AM

57. It was a shitty question

and here you are defending it again.

Look, it doesn't matter what the person's profession is - no one should be treated like that.

But to try to diffuse the horror of what was going on by throwing up dust about whether the victim was lying about being a doctor is just troll-ish behavior and seriously anti-human.

Stop defending this behavior. It is immoral, and now we see also factually wrong.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #57)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:09 AM

60. I'm simply trying to be objective.

 

When a passenger is ordered to leave and refuses to do so, how should the situation have been handled? Cancel the flight entirely? The video does not show the police 'beating' the man, as some have exclaimed. It does show the guy hitting his head on the seats across from him but that looks to be because the police were dragging him out of his seat and the guy likely lost his grip on his seat.

Again, how should the police react when a passenger refuses an order to leave?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #60)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:25 AM

65. no, you are not being objective

You apparently think that if someone claims to be a doctor, and they aren't actually a doctor, it justifies manhandling them and dragging them off.


"Again, how should the police react when a passenger refuses an order to leave? "

This is the fascist/police state's main question. I mean, we order someone to do something, and they don't comply, well, what are we supposed to do? Lay hands on them immediately, obviously and wrench and pull them, suppress and sedate them, taser and club them, bash them and beat them . . . ..


THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION IS . . . TALK!!!! Talk talk talk, talk till you are blue in the face, maintain a dialog, keep talking, talk until some kind of understanding happens. Talk until an agreement can be reached. Talk. Talk. TALK.

THAT is what police officers or security officers or anyone else SHOULD DO if someone doesn't "comply" with their "orders". Unless someone is in immediate physical danger, you talk. Maybe in the end they will do what you want. Maybe you will find some other solution to the issue together. Laying hands on another person should be the ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT, and never done out of convenience or impatience. People's bodily integrity needs to be RESPECTED and MAINTAINED.

I know you won't understand this.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #65)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:39 AM

77. No, the implication from the start is that if the man is a doctor, he is more deserving of respect.

 

I disagree with that. We don't know what occurred before or after the video, which gives us a very narrow viewpoint. It sounds like UA did everything they could to avoid playing the 'fine print clause' of the boarding agreement. Maybe they should have canceled the flight for everyone but then all the passengers would likely blame Dr. Dao for that.

Situations are different when on a plane, which is a narrow and confining space. You can't let one passenger hold the entire plane hostage, can you? What about when a passenger is drunk and loud and distracting everyone? Do the police have the right to use force then?

I would guess the same criteria apply when a passenger refuses to leave for whatever reason.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #77)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:44 AM

83. MAYBE they should have offered $100 more, or $200 more, or $300 more

until they got some more volunteers. maybe they should have TALKED to all of the passengers more about what their options were. Maybe they should have rented a car and driver for their flight crew.




If your point was that everyone deserves respect, not just doctors, then why did you impugn the man by implying he was lying about being a doctor? you agree with my point, which is that no one deserves to be treated that way, so why kick up dust about his profession?



You just want to justify violence against people who don't obey.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #83)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:52 AM

91. But they did keep offering more, until they reached the maximum they had to offer.

 

Should the passengers have held out for $10,000 or more of compensation? That would simply make the passengers turn on one another for the additional delay.

I questioned his authenticity because everyone kept bringing up the fact that he was a doctor and no doubt had desperate patients he needed to serve. Right from the start, these enormous assumptions were made.

And now? Now this is all evidence of fascism, class warfare, racism, corportocracy, authoritarianism, and on and on and on. I expect to see a Nazi reference soon.

When all this really was about was a passenger who refused to get off the plane. He is Vietnamese and he's on probation, which may explain his reluctance to go with police, but we have a somewhat fuller picture today than we did yesterday.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
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Response to randome (Reply #91)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:56 AM

93. They offered *vouchers* not *money*

And those vouchers come with restrictions that may just not work for a lot of people unless they fly frequently. Not to mention that people schedule transportation with the idea that they need to reach their destinations by certain times, and so a $400 or $800 voucher isn't going to make up for someone missing their father's funeral or daughter's wedding after they've already paid for the service and were in the process of receiving the service.

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Response to bekkilyn (Reply #93)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 12:41 AM

228. The vouchers are pretty worthless. Most people have experienced that.

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Response to Alice11111 (Reply #228)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 10:37 AM

244. Exactly, which is why no one wanted them. (nt)

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Response to randome (Reply #91)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:58 AM

95. "the maximum they had to offer" a self-imposed maximum

if it was worth it to get that flight crew on that flight, then they had to pay more. And yes, of course, people on the flight can hold out until the airline reaches whatever amount of money will be enough for them. that's the market. They each had seats that they bought and paid for. The airline can buy them back at the amount that market will command.

And if you say that the airline is within its rights to kick some people off, that they don't have to honor their contract with ticket holders, well, ok, but they have to honor and preserve their passengers bodily integrity. If that takes some extra time in finding the right four people to remove, then boo hoo. They need to explain, talk, wheedle, cajole, convince, urge, and wheel and deal until they can make it right.

NOT resort to violence. NOT physically force someone against their will. NOT act like a fascist organization.

I expect that you will see a lot of Nazi references about your posts.

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Response to randome (Reply #91)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:12 AM

109. Nazis? Nah, they would have pumped the whole plane full of zyclon b.

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Response to randome (Reply #91)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 03:17 PM

185. The company-imposed limit is the _Company's_ problem

Should they have offered $10K? Sure, if necessary, but it's highly unlikely it would be.

This entire crisis was due to the company's self-imposed limitations on what could be offered to already-seated passengers to essentially buy back their ticket under circumstances that make it a seller's market.

They gambled that vouchers were sufficient, and lost. They're useless for infrequent flyers, and usually come with too many restrictions and hassle to redeem to be sufficient inducement for frequent flyers.

The people on-site needed to be able to switch up: maybe cash, maybe just straight company credit (with no restrictions or time limit), or combo, and the ability to go higher. Go up until they get takers. The fact that the employees couldn't do that and that there was no one at a higher level available to provide authorization is the company's fault.

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Response to JHB (Reply #185)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:50 PM

216. THIS! nt

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Response to JHB (Reply #185)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:44 PM

225. Perfectly stated.

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Response to randome (Reply #77)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:51 AM

90. No they did not do "everything they could"

All they did was offer some vouchers, which apparently wasn't enough to convince *any* of the passengers on the plane to volunteer to leave. They could have offered cash. They could have offered cash and first class seats on a different flight. They could surely have found something that four people on a packed flight would have wanted.

They could have even gotten a charter plane to get the employees where they needed to go. There's plenty of things they could have done before ever even *thinking* of laying a hand on anyone, doctor or otherwise.

But no, the choice was either for legitimate, paying passengers to take the voucher that no one wanted or to be brutalized by security.

A company should not punish their customers for their own ineptness or mistakes. The passengers did nothing wrong and simply expected to receive the service they paid for.

I'm baffled as to why you are so staunchly defending United.

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Response to bekkilyn (Reply #90)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:01 AM

96. I'm pointing out that if the scheduling situation was as dire as some have said...

 

...due to weather conditions, then they would likely have had hundreds if not thousands of pissed-off passengers in Louisville so they decided that 4 pissed-off passengers in Chicago was a better bet.

That's just my speculation. Planes are 'special'. They are cramped and confining. When an airline official or a police officer or a security guard tells you to leave, you do not screech and flail about the way he did. That's a sure-fire way to make things worse all around.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #96)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:05 AM

98. DON'T RESIST CITIZEN. OBEY. OBEY YOUR CORPORATE MASTERS

OR YOU WILL BE DEALT WITH PHYSICALLY. DO NOT TRY TO EXPLAIN YOURSELF OR YOU WILL BE BEATEN.

BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES . .. THE CHOCOLATE RATION IS UP . . .

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Response to randome (Reply #96)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:10 AM

103. If someone is grabbing and threatening me with physical violence

you better believe I would be screeching and defending myself as anyone should do. To point out that people should meekly and compliantly agree to be brutalized is ridiculous, but that's probably why these airlines have gotten away with this outrageous behavior for so long in the first place.

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Response to bekkilyn (Reply #103)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:20 AM

116. We don't know what occurred before the video.

 

Maybe he was politely asked to leave over and over and refused to do so. We don't know.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #116)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:29 AM

125. There was no good reason for him to have been required to leave in the first place

If no one wanted to voluntarily give up the service they paid for, the airline needed to make other arrangements for their employees or offer compensation that people actually want.

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Response to bekkilyn (Reply #125)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:41 AM

129. That sounds reasonable. But maybe there were no alternatives.

 

I kind of doubt UA decided that pissing off their passengers was anything but a last resort.

And how high do you go before it becomes bribery instead of compensation?

They tried their first batch of offers and nothing took. I'm sure the police or security guards or whatever did not expect someone to react the way he did.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #129)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:14 PM

140. He probably refused and then security was called

They should have just gone down the list to the next passenger instead of calling security. Two other passengers went. They would have found other passengers.

Dr. Dao probably was not aware that planes can legally bump you. I did not know that there were actually federal laws that allow them to bump you. Another DUer posted the regulations yesterday. I would have freaked out too if was forced to leave a plane.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #140)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 03:01 PM

182. +1

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Response to randome (Reply #129)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:27 PM

150. There are plenty of alternatives, but they just didn't try. (nt)

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Response to randome (Reply #129)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:25 PM

215. It's bribery the minute they offer it

See, when an airline offers you money to get off the plane it's an INDUCEMENT, not "compensation".

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Response to bekkilyn (Reply #125)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:22 PM

145. Bingo

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Response to bekkilyn (Reply #125)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:56 PM

161. apparently they randomly selected his name.

again, no one should be treated the way he was treated.

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Response to randome (Reply #116)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 02:03 PM

167. This girl was "asked politely" to leave the classroom--first by the teacher,

and then by the cop when she refused. The cop started of by "ask(ing) politely," but when she still refused he got all "Respect mah authoritah" on her and threw her across the darned classroom. She was being an ass, no doubt, but the cop went from polite to brutal as soon as she failed to respect his authoritah.

Wanna bet there was a strong thread of that response from the cops going on here?

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #167)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 02:12 PM

169. But we don't know how much the police tried to talk Dr. Dao out of the plane.

 

All we have are videos, which offer a limited viewpoint and a short window of time. His screeching and flailing about doomed him to be forcibly ejected, I bet. No planeload of passengers wants to be sitting with someone who acts like that. I would bet they would have been nervous around him if he'd been allowed to stay.

The fact that he was injured is not necessarily a part of the same theme. When police decide they need to forcibly remove someone, they use...force. Did they try alternatives? We don't know, do we?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to bekkilyn (Reply #103)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 03:05 PM

183. "To point out that people should meekly and compliantly agree to be brutalized is ridiculous"

Actually if he had "meekly complied" none of this would have happened. He would have walked off the plane, and booked another flight or rented a car to go the 300 miles.

Usually best to do what the guys with guns say and straighten it out later.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #183)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 04:54 PM

191. Which means it would never have gotten straightened out

And the meek and compliant man would have lost the time and money he spent on the plane only to spend more of his time and money trying to book another flight or renting a car that he would have had to drive himself.

HOW IN THE WORLD WOULD THAT HELP HIM??? Why is this problem on him or ANY of the other passengers? He did nothing wrong!

This entire thing happened because of United's ineptitude and incompetence, not because a victim decided he wanted to keep the service he paid for. United had no ethical reason to throw him or any of the other paying passengers off of that plane.

I hope United has to fly empty planes for the next 10 years or more. Plenty of room for their employees now.

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Response to randome (Reply #96)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 02:33 PM

172. and if he had a condition that might cause him to be easily frightened or disoriented?

Please consider that people with autism, mental illness, some with mental incapacity have a right to travel by plane. (Yes they are likely to be traveling with caregivers-but that would not seem to have changed the airlines intervention) The random selection and authoritarian announcements are not a wise way to deal with passengers who have purchased a service.

Consider those flying to weddings, funerals, dying relatives.

Airlines have been given many rights by our society. We have a right to be treated with respect.

Since 9/11 too many Americans have gotten used to not being treated with respect.

You seem to expect the passenger to to act more responsibly than the corporate decision-makers.

Even imperfect people have a right to travel. Corporate policies need to take this into account



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Response to delisen (Reply #172)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 02:40 PM

174. A plane full of passengers is 'special'. Confining space. Nowhere to go.

 

You can be an ass on the street but not so much on a plane.

But you're right, not taking into account someone's possible physical state could have made things much worse. But what could they have done? Taken an on-the-spot medical history to decide? Asked him if he would prefer to stay because of some medical problem?

The police no doubt did not expect him to react the way he did. Things got worse very quickly.

I think this was more of a perfect storm than a sign of fascism/racism/authoritarianism/corporate overlords/class warfare/{insert bad thing here}.

A lamentable situation likely caused by UA and a passenger who freaked out about it. It's a recipe that no one wants a taste of.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #174)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 04:57 PM

192. What United should have done was take responsibility for their own ineptitude

and made other plans for their employees. Not try to pass the problem off on any of their paying customers who should never have even been made aware there was a problem in he first place. It was fully an internal issue and should have been resolved internally.

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Response to delisen (Reply #172)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 02:54 PM

179. It has occurred to me that someone his age growing up in Viet Nam is likely to have experienced

significant trauma. Being ordered off the plane, arbitrarily and in an exceedingly authoritarian manner, could have triggered an ungodly amount of repressed terrible memories. I am so sorry that this stupid, unnecessary set of indignities and aggression was unleashed on him.

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Response to Tanuki (Reply #179)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 04:01 PM

190. Agree. Plus too many police seem to be trained to bark orders at people

and make situations worse. The subject of such a command may not be able to process.

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Response to Tanuki (Reply #179)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:53 PM

217. Which is why we see him in the later video pleading, "Don't kill me!" nt

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Response to bekkilyn (Reply #90)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 06:27 PM

202. They could have driven them there. It was only four hours away!

That's the part I don't get. It wasn't cross country. It was a few hours away. Hire a limo.

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Response to randome (Reply #77)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 02:07 PM

257. Only typical doctors you mean.

You know, the ones that conform to your preconceived, "objective biases. The REAL doctors.

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Response to tazkcmo (Reply #257)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 02:09 PM

258. Yes.

 

On the other hand, his profession should be irrelevant. I only addressed it because that was one of the major points being pushed on DU.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #65)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:41 AM

80. So if I were to be trespassing in your house, you'd

 

Do nothing other than talk to encourage me to leave? That's a ludicrous standard.

If they spend hours talking to the guy it delays everybody else on the plane. He wasn't respecting the integrity of everyone else on the plane. The passenger, the security and United all screwed up. None of them acted like responsible grownups.

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Response to mythology (Reply #80)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:46 AM

85. TALKING is what responsible grownups do

More jaw jaw and less war war.

And, if someone were trespassing in my home, I'd expect the police to take them in hand with as little violence as possible, and to talk if talking would resolve the situation without violence, _especially_ if no one was in further physical danger.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #85)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:51 PM

226. If the police then beat him up instead, is it your fault?

 

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Response to mythology (Reply #80)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:05 AM

97. The man wasn't trespassing

He was a legitimate, paying customer on the plane who was in process of receiving the expected service that he paid for. If anyone was disrespecting the integrity of passengers, it was United.

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Response to mythology (Reply #80)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:20 PM

142. Find another means of getting the crew to Louisville

Talk. Offer more incentives. Remember, he was not the only one on the plane. His name was drawn randomly. With a good enough incentive, another passenger might have taken United up on its offer. If all else fails, recognize you've failed in planning for your crew and buy them tickets on some other manner of transport. United's behavior is indefensible. The court of public opinion will bear that out.

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Response to mythology (Reply #80)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:57 PM

218. The plane ended up being delayed two hours anyway--and part of the delay was because they had to

clean up his blood that had sprayed so many of the armrests.

And that 4-person crew who needed those seats toute suite? They consequently ended up being late to get to that, oh, so important flight in Lousiville anyway.

Well played, United. You screwed the pooch in every possible way on that one.

I can't wait to hear about the lawsuit and the settlement.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #65)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 12:34 AM

227. Thank you, Professor Plum, very good answer.

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Response to randome (Reply #60)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:35 AM

72. Why should doctors be treated differently?

He was a person and United kicked him off...tasered him and gave him a concussion...all so their employees could hitch a ride somewhere... it is disgraceful...and there can be no justification for United's behavior...with all the attacks on the brown skinned in Trump's America who knows what he feared. Screw United.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #72)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:42 AM

82. There is no evidence of tasering, despite some DUers pushing that possibility.

 

There is no evidence the police gave anyone a concussion. From the video it appears they were pulling him out and the guy lost his grip on his seat, resulting in him banging his head against the opposing row of seats.

Doctors should not be treated differently. That's why it was unnecessary to have brought up his profession in the first place.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #82)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:14 AM

112. I read it somewhere and I still wonder why you are so determined to blame the victim...

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #112)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:23 AM

121. I'm not blaming the victim.

 

I am saying that there is no way to forcefully remove a passenger from a plane without using force. I'm saying the video shows the guy hitting his head on the opposing row of seats and that there is no evidence he was 'beaten' or tased.

That's all. Precision and concision is my game.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #60)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:17 PM

214. If a passenger were ordered to undress and do jumping jacks, must he comply?

No. Passengers aren't required to follow illegal orders. And this order was illegal. Neither Rule 21 nor 25 gave the airline the right to eject him from his seat.

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Response to randome (Reply #27)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:27 AM

66. That "flailing about", as you describe it, was most likely from being tazed and rendered unconscious

His face was also bloodied.

Pretty typical behavior for a human being subjected to that.

And pls. note everyone. They picked a POC to do that to.

Just the most horrendous series of decisions any company which serves the public could make.

It's like don't they know, PEOPLE HAVE CELL PHONE CAMERAS WITH VIDEO CAPABILITY IN THEIR POCKETS AND PURSES NOW.

You can't get away with this stuff nowadays. Cops also had to learn this and were very slow about it, and some still haven't figured it out.

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Response to brush (Reply #66)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:45 AM

84. I seriously doubt he was tazed. There is nothing that supports that possibility.

 

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #84)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:48 AM

89. Guess you've never seen videos of people being tazed. There is yelling. And how do you account for..

the man being knocked cold?

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Response to brush (Reply #89)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:57 AM

94. In the video, you see him hit his head against the opposing row of seats.

 

That likely occurred because as the police were pulling him away, he lost his grip on his seat. I'm sure the other passengers would have noted the fact that he was being tased. There were enough eyes on the scene to account for that.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #94)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:05 PM

138. I watched several videos and didn't see him hit his head. Why are you defending this horrific...

treatment?

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Response to brush (Reply #138)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:59 PM

163. I'm not defending anything. I'm saying he hit his head on the opposing row of seats.

 

It was in the first video that was posted, I don't know what thread that was.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to brush (Reply #138)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:59 PM

219. He did hit his face on the armrest. That is why he was bloodied. nt

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #219)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:25 PM

221. He hit his face or the rough manhandling led to his face hitting the arm rest?

There is a difference.

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Response to brush (Reply #221)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:31 PM

222. That, I am sure--he was yanked around rather fiercely, so I imagine they hit his face

on the armrest.

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Response to randome (Reply #84)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:06 AM

99. Here you go again


I hope UA is paying you a lot.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #99)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:13 AM

111. Oh, come on! Don't get a post hidden on my account! I'm not -as I'm sure you'd agree- worth it!

 

And I won't alert on you. I have never alerted on anyone.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to brush (Reply #66)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 07:26 PM

209. "And pls. note everyone. They picked a POC to do that to."

Pls. note everyone. They picked other people to get off the plane too (and I seriously doubt they were all Asian). They all got off on their own, so force wasn't necessary.

This has nothing to do with race and trying to make it about race will only distract from the real problems.

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Response to randome (Reply #27)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:32 AM

69. He was tased from what I heard ...and I would have been furious...

United sucks...and it sounds like they picked the wrong guy. I hope they pay through their customer no service nose...bastards.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #69)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:47 AM

87. I feel confident in saying he wasn't tased.

 

Actually, they picked the 'right' guy, if you consider the fact that he's on probation for illegally selling painkillers. I doubt he'll do anything but stay quiet and be thankful if he doesn't get his medical license re-revoked over this.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #87)


Response to Post removed (Reply #100)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:12 AM

108. I'm not at all saying that. Geeze, get over yourself.

 

I'm saying I had questions about him. I'm saying that when you are told to leave a plane, you really have no choice but to do so. He chose to act oddly when confronted. Was he afraid he was breaking his probation? Was he afraid of being deported? I don't know. But I do know that forcefully removing a passenger from a plane is often accompanied by...um, force.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to Post removed (Reply #100)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:27 AM

124. man, come on

I don't disagree with your line of thinking but the name calling is over the top. I mean, I get that you are upset, I get your logic, but the name calling diminishes it.

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Response to randome (Reply #87)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:13 AM

110. I feel blaming the victim is inappropriate...and too bad for United.

He went to the hospital...there will be blood work...the convictions is 14 years in the past...and no matter what, United was wrong to treat a customer this way...and so they 'picked' him did they?

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #110)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:17 AM

113. How would one forcefully remove a passenger without the use of force?

 

Does one passenger get to hold an entire plane hostage?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #113)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 03:13 PM

184. I find it disturbing that this discussion has gone as

far as it has. Seriously. United screwed up by not having staff where and when they should have. Forcibly taking passengers who have not broken any rule, law or endangered fellow passengers or flight crew is a bad decision on a multitude of levels. There was NO REASON for airline personnel to touch him in any way. How this man reacted was a fight or flight response to feeling threatened. Holy hell, we let people shoot each other in the streets because they feel threatened and have to "stand their ground". This guy threatened no one and was keeping nobody hostage. United made their poor staffing mistake this man's problem and that's not only wrong, but a piss poor business model. Force should be used when it is indicated and it was not in this case. Where do we draw the line??? Say that you've just checked out at the grocery store with the last carton of milk on the shelf. The store manager comes up to you and says "There's someone who needs that milk and we're out, I need you to give up your carton of milk for him." You refuse, you get the shit kicked out of you? Stop defending this. It is indefensible.

I own a business - I'm screwed stuff up before - I fix it at my expense with an apology to all concerned for any inconvenience. THAT'S what civilized people do.

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Response to randome (Reply #113)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 05:56 PM

196. You can debate this until the cows come home

still doesn't matter whether or not he was tasered, hit his head, whatever...the man was 69 years old for crying out loud! He was brutally removed from a seat he bought, paid for and was occupying for the sake of a for profit machine. This is an injustice to all of us and you should be backing your fellow citizen...what's next? Gestapo tactics? Sure just come into my house, take whatever you want and lock me up for whatever reason you chose, you don't even need to tell my family where I am or why...

Now is when we need to stand up for one another and the injustices that are being brought against each and every one of us....

You could be next...would you want all of us to have your back or not?

Resist!!

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Response to Heartstrings (Reply #196)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 06:29 PM

203. I've wondered if s/he is arguing just for the sake of arguing

Either that or just pro-corporate in general. Otherwise, I'm baffled how anyone can defend actions that are so obviously unethical and unjust.

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Response to Heartstrings (Reply #196)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 06:44 PM

205. Absolutely.

I am with you 100%.

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Response to Heartstrings (Reply #196)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 05:17 AM

239. +1! eom

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Response to randome (Reply #113)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 07:11 PM

207. One should not forcibly remove a passenger period so there was no need for any sort of force...

Customers should not be treated this...way hope he soaks United.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #110)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 05:16 AM

238. Check upthread.

It appears that the Dr. Dao with a conviction is actually NOT THIS Dr. Dao. I can't seem to find the information anywhere else, but will keep looking.

But if it is true that THIS Dr. Dao is NOT the one with a conviction, there should be LOTS of red faces and LOTS of compensation involved. Our so-called M$M that helped elect the worst US President ever is leading the smear charges: http://dailycaller.com/2017/04/11/journalists-smear-man-dragged-off-united-flight-for-no-apparent-reason/

Unless someone is a white male, the tactic always seems to be "blame the victim."

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Response to BlueMTexpat (Reply #238)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 07:36 AM

241. Slander as well as assault.

I was proud that even with this nonsense, people still felt United was wrong...and what about corporate media sucking up to United to even run this story? I have not seen this anywhere either.

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Response to randome (Reply #87)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 05:03 AM

236. Please check upthread.

You are wrongfully smearing THIS Dr. Dao. Please stop.

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Response to randome (Reply #27)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:12 PM

139. aaaaaand. . . . right on schedule.

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Response to randome (Reply #27)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 02:59 PM

180. Frankly I don't think any mature adult would act like he did, Dr or not.

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Response to randome (Reply #27)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 05:51 PM

194. He screamed when thecthree goons attacked him. He may have been tased.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #194)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 06:04 PM

197. He was not tased. No one on the plane said he was.

 

We don't know what the police said before the video started. If you want to believe they simply marched onto the plane and started beating him, I guess that's your perogative. But it appears from the video that they were talking to him. How long they tried to convince him to leave, we don't know.

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Response to randome (Reply #197)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 06:11 PM

198. Were you there?

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Response to yardwork (Reply #198)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 06:21 PM

201. Someone on the plane would have said it.

 

This is part of what I find interesting/ludicrous about this discussion -how very far afield of facts and probabilities it travels.

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Response to randome (Reply #27)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 02:00 PM

255. got a link?

A study of some kind? FBI profile? Statistical analysis? Anything at all to back that up or is this just your opinion?

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Response to tazkcmo (Reply #255)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 02:06 PM

256. Entirely my opinion. I would not expect a professional man/woman to react w shouting & flailing.

 

But with all the back-and-forth about this man's true identity, I'm not sure we can say -even now- we know much about him.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #256)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 02:12 PM

260. Who cares what YOU would expect?

I know I've gone through my entire life and will continue to do so without considering, knowing or caring what your expectations are. I'm sure this real doctor is the same. My goodness. You certainly are a self important person expecting people to conform toyour expectations of behavior.

don't bother responding. I put people like this on ignore because of the "objectivity" they display. Good riddance.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:35 AM

4. first news source to actually do their job and identify the man and confirm he is a physician.

So, while DM is a rag, at least they did what no other source apparently has on this story.

That CEO needs to be immediately removed and adults (with a clue) brought in... I don't want to see UA fail--Denver is a major hub, but this is unconscionable and they need to be brought to account.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #4)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:38 AM

7. Ya know, I read the DM...daily. I have yet to see why it's called a "rag." I read more news there

 

than on any American site, perhaps barring only the NYT, and that's a big "perhaps."

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #7)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:46 AM

9. Well, they certainly seem to work at getting the story--rather than waiting to be spoon-fed the

"official line"... So, yeah I do credit them for that.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #7)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:10 AM

28. It's a rag because it runs scare stories about immigrants, and obsesses about female bodies

and whether they are 'good' or 'bad'. Its attitude is roughly equivalent to Fox News. It has been like this for decades (headline from the 1930s: "Hurrah for the Blackshirts"; it is said its editorial policy was to get every reader outraged about something every day). There's a reason it is satirised like this:

Daily Mail Island, a reality TV show where several normal people are deposited on an island and not allowed access to any media other than the strongly right-wing and conservative Daily Mail newspaper, leading to them becoming progressively more irrational and brutal as the series progresses - for example, tying teenage lovers together with sacks on their heads and beating them,[4] or sealing a teenager caught masturbating into a coffin filled with broken glass and dog faeces and throwing it over a cliff [5] and their language devolving into rhetorical questions and sarcastic snorts.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TVGoHome

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #28)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:02 PM

220. "Scare stories" or lies? There's a difference. And you are SERIOUSLY GOING BACK TO THE 30'S?!

 



At least it never had a "Page 3" girl.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #220)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 02:43 AM

232. Scare stories AND lies. Yes, it does goes back to the thirties. It's been a rag for over 80 years

It's a family business, the Rothermeres, who have been a succession of right wing hypocrites (they use foreign domicile status to avoid UK taxes, but wrap themselves in the Union Jack), who have used it to push a RW agenda, while treating female celebrities as meat to be oggled and criticised.

You do not want to defend the Mail. Just go to the UK group and ask there about it.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #7)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:41 AM

81. When it's competitor is "The Sun" (Murdoch rag)...

... you might begin to understand the hyper-partisan nature of the UK national press.

A news outlet more aligned with DUs values ? The Guardian, for starters.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:36 AM

5. And soon to be the new owner of United Airlines

This old vet loves the Vietnamese People. What we did to them all those years ago was as wrong as wrong can be.

simple as that

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Response to madokie (Reply #5)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:43 AM

48. Not a chance

But the Chicago Department of Aviation Security had better check their wallets.

United's actions were stupid (they should have continued to raise the bounty until four people took it)... but not actionable. It was law enforcement that assaulted him (or used excessive force).

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #48)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 09:35 PM

267. The United employees are

as much to blame as the law enforcement. They are the ones who called law enforcement to begin with for a problem they created and then subsequently handled horribly. There were over a hundred other passengers they could have and should have gone on to ask, the hell with their stupid fucking "random algorithm" or whatever the fuck voodoo they use to determine which PAYING passengers ALREADY ON BOARD THE PLANE AND SEATED should be fucked over and given their useless worthless bullshit vouchers.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:37 AM

6. Thanks, but we don't need to know his past. Nobody deserved that assault and battery.

 

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #6)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:47 AM

11. Very true. And we must continue to keep this in mind when the

victim-bashing escalates, as will soon happen. Dr. Dao has some major blemishes in his professional history and the right wingers and authoritarians will try to use this against him and to minimize or excuse what United did to him. It doesn't matter. Nobody should have been treated this way.

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Response to Tanuki (Reply #11)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:51 AM

16. WHAT blemishes in his professional history? I didn't read anything of the kind?

It would not matter to me, regardless, but that is an offensive statement to me that seems to be doing just what you say you want to avoid....

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #16)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:56 AM

19. I am not trying to offend you or slander Dr. Dao.

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/11/david-dao-passenger-removed-united-flight-doctor-troubled-past/100318320/

"David Dao, the Elizabethtown doctor who was yanked off an overbooked United Airlines flight Sunday, has had a troubled history in Kentucky.

Dao, who went to medical school in Vietnam in the 1970s before moving to the U.S., was working as a pulmonologist in Elizabethtown when he was arrested in 2003 and eventually convicted of drug-related offenses after an undercover investigation, according to documents filed with the Kentucky Board of Medical Licensure last June. The documents allege that he was involved in fraudulent prescriptions for controlled substances and was sexually involved with a patient who used to work for his practice and assisted police in building a case against him.

Dao was convicted of multiple felony counts of obtaining drugs by fraud or deceit in November 2004 and was placed on five years of supervised probation in January 2005. He surrendered his medical license the next month.
The Kentucky Board of Medical Licensure permitted Dao to resume practicing medicine in 2015 under certain conditions."

------
This is from his local newspaper. As I stated, it does not in any way mitigate what United did to him, but will be used against him in some circles.

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Response to Tanuki (Reply #19)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:13 AM

31. I had seen none of this but agree with you that this is immaterial to

Current incident... thanks for the response

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Response to Tanuki (Reply #19)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:38 AM

76. So the smear campaign begins already.

irrelevant.

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Response to Tanuki (Reply #19)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:08 AM

101. That case might involve some level of racist harassment too.

If he'd been a white Republican doctor practicing in Kentucky, would he have had been treated the same?

Somehow I doubt it.

Like it or not, law enforcement at all levels in the U.S.A. is not colorblind, from street cops, to medical boards, to the DEA, ICE and the FBI.









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Response to hunter (Reply #101)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:20 PM

143. What if it had been Mitch McConnell?

LOL...Mr. No himself.

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Response to Tanuki (Reply #19)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:20 AM

118. So what?

(Not directed at you, BTW.)

This is what the right-wing haters do every single time. Something horrific is done to an individual who belongs to a minority group, and they change the topic by finding some minor infraction the person committed in the past. And everybody goes away thinking that the person deserved what he got.

Life is hard. People get depressed. They get addicted to drugs. They get angry and yell inappropriately. They lie on immigration documents to be able to be near and support their loved ones. We all do our best to make the best of the cards we've been dealt. No one is perfect. If being treated fairly requires perfection, then no one can possibly demand fairness.

This is a sick country, and it will not change until we decide that a lack of empathy for one's fellow beings is despicable and shameful. When someone displays a lack of empathy, put them on the spot and shame them for not being a better human being. We need to get together and stop the slide of this culture toward increasing sociopathy.

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Response to athena (Reply #118)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:49 AM

132. excellent post! nt

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Response to athena (Reply #118)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 03:36 PM

188. +1000.

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Response to athena (Reply #118)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 06:53 PM

206. Yes! This! Lack of empathy, a chronic illness in our country... nt

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Response to Tanuki (Reply #11)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:36 AM

75. Do you work for United? Stop blaming the victim...don't care

what you or any other person says...this was a disgraceful episode and United should be ashamed.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #75)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:23 AM

120. They're not blaming the victim.

Tanuki has been on the victim's side all along. I think you misread their post.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #6)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:48 AM

14. No. It is important to get out there to fight the attempt to villainize him and destroy his rep

This is already happening in comment sections, by UA CEO, and unfortunately, a few pro-authoritarian posters here on DU.

Should it matter? NO. But, it does.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #14)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:12 AM

30. limbaugh asked why didn't they just offer him a pepsi?

always putting a friendly face on fascism....

from 600 radio stations near us all

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Response to certainot (Reply #30)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:12 AM

106. I've seen that Pepsi thing a few times

from many sources. It's not a fascism thing. It's satire of Pepsi's stupid Jenner commercial with her walking through protesters, and offering a Pepsi to a cop, and suddenly everything's OK.
A post on Reddit was captioned with "I'm never getting a ticket again", and it showed a Pepsi stashed in the door of the car.

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Response to christx30 (Reply #106)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:56 PM

160. limbaugh is making fun of the whole thing with a 'political correctness' reference

while being the biggest PC cop in the country

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Response to certainot (Reply #160)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 02:14 PM

171. People I've seen it have been crapping on

Pepsi's advertising and their trivializing the protest/resistance movements. All problems between police and the communities can be solved with ice cold sugary carbonated water. Duh. Why didn't anyone else think of that? Thank God for Pepsi.

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Response to certainot (Reply #160)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:54 PM

223. "PC" really means "Prejudice cover-up"

Anyone who uses the term political c****ness is really saying they are covering up racism and hatred.

PC is GOP code for "it's ok to be racist and hateful".

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #223)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:30 PM

224. here's one definition

"Political correctness is a straw man that blowhard reactionaries attack in lieu of reasonable refutations of sensible arguments for progress." Barry Crimmins

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:39 AM

8. I don't care

if he is a doctor, a brick layer or a sanitation worker, no human being should be treated in that matter. I still want to know why he was chose over other passengers.

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Response to itcfish (Reply #8)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:47 AM

10. I read that a random computer pick occurred

but like you said, what does it matter. I think the luck of draw was perfect in this case because it opened up a real Pandora's box.

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Response to tavernier (Reply #10)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:20 AM

38. Nope, he felt that it was racism and misandry

 

"Chinese man"

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Response to itcfish (Reply #8)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:06 AM

25. Totally agree. Respect for the man and what he's accomplished, but his being a doctor doesn't

make what they did to him any more horrible. It would have been just as horrible if it had been an unemployed person, a school teacher, a deli worker, a grocery store cashier. Manhandling a innocent human being for no reason is unacceptable whomever it is.

I hope the CEO of United; Oscar Munoz is treated the way he wants his passengers to be treated.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:47 AM

12. The claims for the amount of compensation vary from story to story

The story linked in the OP says:
The CEO described how flight crews had offered up to $1,000 in compensation for anyone willing to catch the next flight before approaching the passenger to 'explain apologetically' that he was being denied boarding.


This article - https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/04/united-video-scandal-law/522552/ - says:
After the offer was raised to $800, and nobody was willing to leave the flight (perhaps because it would require missing a full day's work without a compelling excuse), somebody from United announced that a computer would randomly select four people to leave the plane.


Some of the earlier stories (that I cannot now find) said the passengers were offered $400 in vouchers to "volunteer" to leave the flight.

I wonder if the couple who did leave got a lesser compensation than was offered to the more stubborn man who did NOT want to leave?

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Response to csziggy (Reply #12)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:06 AM

26. Would have been cheaper for them to have offered 2 free first class tickets

To everyone on the flight. This is going to cost hundreds of millions to repair their image.

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Response to n2doc (Reply #26)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:17 AM

35. They could have hired a car and driver to drive their crew to Louisville

If the crew needed rest on the way to their next flight that would have been as good as flying. Since the plane was already boarded and full and no one volunteered to willingly leave - one couple "begrudgingly" got off - it would have been much cheaper to simply have the crew taken by car. The drive time is less than six hours!

Originally I wondered if at least some of the crew members were pilots that needed to get a specified amount of rest before their next flight but at least one article said the personnel were actually maintenance workers who needed to be in Louisville.

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Response to csziggy (Reply #35)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:21 AM

39. Some DUers in the know say that doesn't work according to FAA regulations.

 

If they were pilots, you can't sleep in a car and consider yourself rested enough to fly an airplane. If they were maintenance workers, I would think there was an urgent need to see to planes in Louisville. Delaying that would have created another cascading event with thousands more outraged passengers. I'm assuming.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #39)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:26 AM

42. As I said in my message,that might have been a consideration

But at least one article specified that they were United maintenance crew, not flight crew.

I understand that pilots are supposed to get a certain number of hours of bed rest between flights. If the United crew members included pilots, that would explain the need to fly them so they would get enough time to sleep before a scheduled flight.

BUT if there were a pilot in the four that were put on the plane why hasn't United made that part of their publicity? They would deflate some of the criticism if they framed it as a safety issue for getting other flights away on time with a rested pilot in the cockpit.

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Response to csziggy (Reply #42)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:38 AM

45. They could definitely be more forthcoming about the reason this became such a problem.

 

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #39)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:28 AM

43. They could have negotiated with a competitor to fly the crew

This used to happen frequently years ago when the airlines actually cooperated with each other...

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #43)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:39 AM

46. Maybe they tried. If the entire region was screwed up, maybe there were no alternatives.

 

Maybe all the other airline schedules were screwed up, too.

It would help UA if they explained just why the situation developed in the first place.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #43)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:54 AM

51. Then hire a private service or join Netjet

for such exigencies. They were out of Chicago. I wouldn't be shocked if United kept a smaller plane there available for executives. Put the crew on that. Solve the problem SOME other way.

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Response to BadgerMom (Reply #51)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:36 AM

127. This...

..a four hour drive would be about a 45 minute flight... NetJets or United corporate jet would have gotten the crew members there in no time and well rested... and it would have been a heck of a lot cheaper that the ultimate cost of the bad PR for United...




This is the DU member formerly known as PoiBoy.

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Response to BadgerMom (Reply #51)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:23 PM

147. O'Hare's close to Palwaukee airport where I'm sure they could charter a nice small corp jet.

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Response to randome (Reply #39)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:17 AM

64. I heard the flight they were repositioning for was next day.

I don't think traveling to work counts as duty time anyway.

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #64)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:54 AM

92. I hadn't heard that. Definitely no logic to forcing passengers off if that's the case.

 

But I'd need to see a reference before I believe it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to n2doc (Reply #26)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 01:47 AM

230. Billions, w the boycott.TheChinese are boycotting too.Today alone was1/2 million just in stock loses

Well deserved. Let it be a message to the industry! United is the worst, most rude... but they all treat us like shit, unless you are 1st class, wealthy. You can't just pick someone out and screw up their plans and responsibilities because you are too cheap to pay someone money, or something besides worthless scam vouchers, when that person has already paid and relied on the ticket. Fuck the rules. These are adhesion contracts. They know no one reads them because there is really no choice but to take the service anyway. Adhesion contracts can be pierced.

The guy forcing the passenger had on blue jeans. What the hell? Authority? To drag this guy down the aisle, who was obviously scared to death and confused, after they had already busted his head, or caused his head to bleed, is inhumane. There are 100 different things they could have done. His past is irrelevant, and distant, probably questionable anyway, given his background. Minorities don't always get a fair shake by authorities or in the justice system, even worse 13 years ago, or whatever. Nonetheless, his past is irrelevant. The guy on Twitter who said, how could they have done it worse, set him on fire, has a point.

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Response to csziggy (Reply #12)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:14 AM

61. Without a compelling excuse?

I would just say I was bumped from my flight, that's not a compelling reason to miss work?

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Response to cannabis_flower (Reply #61)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 02:11 PM

168. It depends on the job - for a doctor it could be a major problem

Some articles today indicate that the doctor who was attacked was an internist - he could have patients waiting for initial diagnoses or for followup checkups or treatment. He could also have a schedule that is tight and re-scheduling could take months and could endanger patients' lives.

I know when my doctor found a heart murmur it was two month before the cardiologist could fit me into his schedule. Even then, he had an emergency the morning of my appointment and arrived an hour and a half late. It's been two weeks since the echocardiogram (which could only be scheduled a month after the doctor's appointment) indicated the need for an MRI and I am still waiting for the call to schedule that.

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Response to csziggy (Reply #168)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 03:00 PM

181. I was actually thinking of the others on the plane..

that could have been bumped. For most jobs it would be a compelling reason.

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Response to cannabis_flower (Reply #181)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 03:29 PM

187. Of course we don't know how many passengers were already behind schedule

Because of delays and flight cancellations caused by weather. Remember, that is part of United's justification for needing to bump paying passengers in order to get a crew in Louisville on such a tight schedule.

That could be why the doctor was in need of getting back that night - maybe he had planned on returning previously and had already been delayed.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:49 AM

15. He definitely looks dangerous in that pic

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:52 AM

17. Why I don't fly

I quit flying after 9/11 when we started being treated like criminals. What happened to this doctor was disgusting!

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Response to DownriverDem (Reply #17)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:21 AM

40. I quit flying in 1990 when the passengers were treated like cattle

My husband and I flew to Albuquerque and back for a seminar. Both directions the flights were crammed, overhead luggage bins were full of peanuts - on flights with no food or snacks being served - and the attendants were overworked and rude.

I love flying, but after those flights I just have not wanted to take commercial jets anymore. Since 911 with the increased cramming and the TSA abuses, I doubt I will ever fly again.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:56 AM

18. UA seems to have some serious problems

They needed 4 people to leave, after already boarding, because they needed to get 4 of their employees to Louisville ASAP. So there was already a problem before this incident even happened. How did that original problem happen? Seems like they have a lot of things to fix.

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Response to Phoenix61 (Reply #18)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:58 AM

20. Weather canceled and delayed thousands of flights in the region. It was a scheduling mess.

 

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #20)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:03 AM

23. Thanks, I didn't know that

They certainly managed to stir up a pretty good sized shit storm that I bet will last longer than that weather did.

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Response to Phoenix61 (Reply #18)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 01:00 PM

164. They also kill pets -- see my post below (and it's all over YouTube and Twitter)

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:00 AM

21. I appreciate you sharing that information. Morning Joe were on

United's CEO most of this morning but Scarborough kept repeating they had not "verified" the man was an actual Doctor., like it makes a difference. Doctor or not, no one deserves that type of treatment.
Again thanks for the OP.

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Response to dae (Reply #21)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:14 AM

33. agreed

It doesn't matter if he was a doctor, dentist, dock worker, the Duke of York, or a laid off dish washer. He got treated like crap.

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Response to dae (Reply #21)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:03 AM

54. +1

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:03 AM

24. 69 years old & treated like that . Shame on them!

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:11 AM

29. Immigrants coming here and stealing our doctor jobs

away from Billy Bob with his GED. Immigrants are causing our doctor shortage the same way they've been stealing coal, oil, and gas jobs.

I'm impressed and will admit that I doubted he was a doctor based on how he was acting. But I was wrong. It sounds like he really was frightened for whatever reason. Trump's America is a scary place for immigrants and minorities in ways that a white American will never understand.

Rural areas in Kentucky have a shortage of doctors of any type, and really desperate for specialists. So he probably did have lots of rural patients depending on him for treatment if there is no one else for hours in any direction. My hometown in PA has 0 doctors who can deliver babies within an hour's drive.

Both of my grandparents came to America as doctors when LBJ reformed immigration to bring non-European immigrant doctors to treat poor white patients in the new Medicare/Medicaid program while many Southern states were still segregated and women were often blocked out from such professions and misogynist idiots would not let their wives book appointments with my grandmother.

Trump has stated the 1965 immigration reform was when America stopped being great.

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Response to IronLionZion (Reply #29)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:46 AM

86. He was most likely tazed, and knocked unconscious. He was out cold when being dragged out with...

with bloodied face and glassed askew.

Just horrendous treatment. United will lose millions behind this in business and legal costs.

How stupid can you get. Just keep upping the free tickets and cash until someone bites.

Bet they wish they had just done that now. Even five or even ten grand of an offer is just peanuts compared to what this will cost United.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:16 AM

34. I hope he sues the pants off of them

I'm so tired of large corporations treating consumers like garbage. We need better consumer protection laws in this country.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:18 AM

36. When will the violence by Americans against the Vietnamese end?

 

Give the man reparations

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:35 AM

44. We're just missing the Jackboots!

 

The people with the power and authority treat everyone as if they are healthy 21 year olds.

This Dr could have had a weak heart and died. People get tased and choked to death way to often.

So much for Poppy Bush's kinder and gentler nation.

WTF kind of country have we become?

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:40 AM

47. United needs employee training!

I've seen nothing in any news report that the United employees did anything other than offer money. And they didn't offer the maximum they could have ($1350). Several other airlines fly from Chicago to Louisville. Did they try to find seats for the crew that needed to be in Louisville on one of those carriers? Or even one seat for the doctor, who might have been delayed but still able to get home that night. Chicago also has another airport--were later flights available from Wrigley Field? Or did they explore options of flying their crew or the doctor to Cincinnati or Lexington? It's a short drive from either to Louisville. It seems that they did not really explore the options. The message United's actions sends, and even the response of the CEO, is that passengers are just so much baggage and they can treat them however they want! Their employees need better training and respect for the people paying the bills.

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Response to Lonestarblue (Reply #47)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:40 AM

79. DING DING DING! Lonestarblue, you're our grand prize winner!

Several other airlines fly from Chicago to Louisville. Did they try to find seats for the crew that needed to be in Louisville on one of those carriers?

Better yet, why not find the flights for the PASSENGERS they bumped?

Oh, wait -- putting the crew on OTHER flights would have forced United to pay for their tickets, not to mention make them look incompetent because they can't plan that far ahead. Why not always reserve seats for last-minute crew members as a matter of policy? And why overbook in the first place?


rocktivity
This is the DU member formerly known as rocktivity.

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Response to Lonestarblue (Reply #47)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:22 PM

146. They are allowed to offer as high an amount as they like.

The $1350 figure is the maximum you're legally entitled to if you're involuntarily bumped off. Most of those who are involuntarily bumped off don't claim that money, probably because they don't read the fine print on the paperwork they're given, or they simply don't have time to go through the process.

United was free to offer $5,000 in cash. I bet there would have been takers.

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Response to Lonestarblue (Reply #47)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 02:43 PM

175. The CEO's response reiterates this attitude. It is a shitty company. Top to bottom.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:15 AM

62. Thanks for the lovely picture, OKNancy.

This will stay with me. The little one resembles my grandaughter.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:29 AM

68. I will repeat what I said on another thread on the same subject....

To me the point that is being lost is, this man is a human being...he was brutally forced to vacate a seat that he had bought, paid for, and was occupying...he was 69 years old...he had someplace he needed to be as did everyone else on that plane...if anyone can view that video and side with the airlines on this, you may want to acquire some empathy...although it's pretty apparent that emotion is severely lacking in our country these days...never liked you United, and I'll take a bus before I'll ever fly your "unfriendly" skies again....

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Response to Heartstrings (Reply #68)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:36 AM

73. Let's not ask Judge

 

Merrick Gorsuch* !

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Response to Heartstrings (Reply #68)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:39 AM

78. +1 to you here, too (nt)

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Response to bekkilyn (Reply #78)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:11 AM

104. Thanks good to see you bekkilyn!

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:36 AM

74. heres what i dont understand

under uniteds contract of carraige they can deny boarding if the plane is overbooked.

1)in this case the guy had already boarded. has a court ruled what constitutes boarding,so if he had already boarded can he sue for being forced off the plane?
2) the contract says it can deny boarding if teh plane is overbooked. The plane wasnt overbooked,united decided that 4 non paying employees were more important. so does the overbookign rules apply???

Im not a lawyer but it seems like the doctor has a good case for a lawsuit.


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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 10:48 AM

88. I hope he sues the living daylights out of United.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:12 AM

107. I hope all those DUers who accused him of lying about being a doctor apologize publicly.

The fact that they accused this guy, whom they've never met, of lying about his profession says more about them than it does about him.

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Response to athena (Reply #107)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:18 AM

114. +1 nt

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Response to athena (Reply #107)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:50 AM

134. Amen

Authoritarians among us.

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Response to athena (Reply #107)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:21 PM

144. I suggest that you not hold your breath waiting for that apology. there is a certain mindset

that refuses to acknowledge wrong.

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Response to niyad (Reply #144)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:25 PM

149. I can't even imagine

how a person who publicly stated that they thought the guy was lying about being a doctor could live with themselves without taking back that unfair and uncalled-for smear. I can't fathom the level of rationalization that must go on in such a brain.

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Response to athena (Reply #149)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:29 PM

152. it is better not to imgaine such disgusting things.

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Response to niyad (Reply #152)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:30 PM

153. LOL. You're right.

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Response to niyad (Reply #144)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 06:30 PM

204. +1,000 I don't recognize this place these days

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Response to malaise (Reply #204)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 11:55 AM

246. some days it is a puzzlement

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:18 AM

115. NY Daily News writing about his previous run ins with the law... I'm

no lawyer but what the F&^% difference does that make to this situation other than besmirch the dr and lend credence to the actions taken by UAL??

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Response to NoMoreRepugs (Reply #115)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:41 AM

130. totally agree

I don't care if the guy was a convicted armed robber out of prison for one day. You do NOT deserve to be treated the way that man was treated. Period.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:20 AM

117. My daughter may contact him . . .

 

. . . she is a cross between a pit bull and a great white shark and also is a trial lawyer . . . BIG settlement and BIG fee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Response to OldRedneck (Reply #117)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:52 AM

135. Woot!

Go get 'em OldRedneck's daughter!!!!!

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:21 AM

119. Let's ignore, for the moment, the wisdom....

... of United's policy of removing people from their seats if they are refusing to leave after a legal (remember.... ignore this part) order to do so.

A lot of the furor seems to be about the physicality of the process. So my question to those folks is, What is a policeman supposed to do when asked to remove a person from a place where they don't belong? (Reminder - we're ignoring the righteousness of United's policies for the purposes of this question.) Just pretend that it was a legal order to leave the plane.

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #119)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:36 AM

128. here's the thing to me.

His reaction was inappropriate. It really was. But to me that means instead of acting like a jack booted thug and dragging him out that professional people should have treated him with dignity. He is an older gentleman. I know nothing about him. Do I know if he has dementia? Do I know if he has diabetes and has been traveling and his blood sugar is out of whack? I know that he is panicking. Is the appropriate thing for to grab him and force him to the ground and drag him? Or is it to assess the situation and respond in an appropriate way?

Now we know that he came to the US from Vietnam in the 1970s. We know he has had legal problems before. I do not know how these factors impacted his behavior, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did. No one would have known these things in that situation, but instead of trying to find out what the mental state of the man was and deal with that in a kind, respectful way they choose to physically drag him off the plan with no concern for his well being.

There was a post a few months ago about how we need to remember our humanity as so many elements of our society seem to shift towards authoritarianism. How when the culture around us changes we forget and adapt to the new reality. To remember to question things that have come to seem acceptable that previously would not have. To notice when our perceptions have changed. So let me ask, do you not think that there were other ways that the situation could have been handled? Are we at the point when physically dragging some one is considered just a necessary reaction by LEO?

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Response to d_r (Reply #128)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:17 PM

141. Good point. No attempt to de-escalate the situation. nt

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Response to d_r (Reply #128)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:32 PM

154. Please stop it with the "inappropriate reaction". The man was a 69 year old Vietnamese immigrant.

Not a coddled 45 year old American who grew up watching "Growing Pains", "Different Strokes", and "T.J. Hooker", who was taught that Officer McFriendly had your best interest at heart, and to be a Grown Up is to just listen to what you were told by those above you and follow orders from someone in Uniform.

There are certain expectations of respect Dr. Dao has due to his age, and the fact that he purchased a ticket and had already been seated. My own 75+ year old mother would refuse to leave in similar circumstances, it's hard enough for her to manage her baggage and negotiate the airport; and the vouchers they were offering would not make up the difference in money, time, and physical effort she would have to pay for being bumped. Plus, if she was travelling with checked luggage, she wouldn't want to be separated from the medication and other items she would have had to have packed for the trip, similar to most 70+ people.

Vouchers are bullshit and useless. I wouldn't give up my legitimately purchased seat for a voucher that I probably couldn't ever find a use for and a "promise" that maybe there would be a seat for me on some flight over the next couple days that I wouldn't be bumped from; it would have to be an actual ticket, a rental car, or cash money.

There was absolutely no reason for him to give up his seat once he had been boarded; he wasn't being combative, he wasn't drunk and raising one's voice to be heard and get attention when someone puts their hands on one is not an unexpected response. And I've read several comments purportedly from other passengers that when he was yanked from his seat, he and his wife were in the process of trying to get United to pay for a f'ing rental car so they could just drive the 4 hours back home instead of having to put up with the B.S. the airline was trying to pull on them.

So yes, I would yell if someone grabbed me to pull me out of my seat. I would be selfish if I thought a company was randomly cheating me - especially if I were a minority who knew I looked like easy prey to an authoritarian.

He wasn't acting inappropriately before they grabbed him. He was just standing up for his rights as a paying customer that was already in the process of receipt of the service, as well as someone who was in a reasonably protected legal status - the burden it would be on an elderly or disabled person to be deplaned after they had already been seated is significant, which is why there's special seating for them.

Being a doctor, or having a checkered past, has nothing to do with it.

Haele

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Response to haele (Reply #154)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:51 PM

158. I'm with you.

His "fuss" would look like nothing much if I were the one yanked from my seat.

He was boarded, so did United try to take care of this predicatment before everyone was boarded??

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Response to haele (Reply #154)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 01:42 PM

166. Well thats fine

I thought he was acting odd, you didn't, but my point would be the same, any decent person would have looked at him and handled it without dragging him out.

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #119)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:42 AM

131. To begin with...

United or any other airline should never under any circumstances be sending in the cops to forcibly remove a paying customer causing no problem who was selected "at random" because of the airline's own screw-up. That airline should have a back-up policy in place for alternative transportation, such as a small private plane, if getting select crew members to their destination is all that important, if and when someone in the organization screws up. Law enforcement and law-abiding customers should be completely out of the picture.

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Response to Zambero (Reply #131)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:58 AM

137. It's an abuse of the system.

The cops are supposed to be there to solve real problems, not protect large corporations from the quirks of individual citizens.

I recently got kicked out of a mall because I was painting there. (I'm an artist.) It was a tiny painting; I was occupying almost no space, making no mess, and causing no disturbance. But security forced me to leave because apparently the stores are very "sensitive" about their image being captured. In other words, security was more concerned about protecting the profits of the big-name stores than in ensuring the safety of the people in the mall. When you see a security guard at any private establishment, don't be lulled into a false sense of security: they're not there to protect you; they're there to protect the establishment from you.

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Response to Zambero (Reply #131)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:58 PM

162. Exactly.I am so fucking sick of the corporate shills -- United has also killed a bunch of pets

pets too, despite promising the people who paid extra for special care (some paid in the thousands) that their pet would receive personal attention including water, vet attention if needed, and release from its cage for a bit of exercise with a private handler. Yep, it didn't happen, and one woman recorded her dog being left outside for hours (as the plane sat for something like six hours waiting for several "mechanical" checks) in his plastic carrier in 90 plus degree heat with NO WATER and no release. Periodically a baggage guy kicked the dog's carrier. The dog very nearly died and needed emergency vet care (which the owner paid for not United). United offered her some vouchers. Other animals have died, and people have been blatantly lied to about what happened to their animals. United sucks.

United sucks. People smearing the doctor and excusing this monstrous behavior imho don't belong on DU. I find it extremely weird that they want to post to a site like DU in the first place.

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Response to Zambero (Reply #131)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 02:51 PM

177. Really, they should just up the compensation offers until someone accepts. n/t

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #177)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 01:20 PM

245. An excellent solution

Could even live stream the proceedings with a celebrity host as a daytime game show, a-la "Deal Or No Deal".

"Fly Or No Fly" ???



But all aside, that might be the best solution.

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #119)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:24 PM

148. WHAT LEGAL order??? why were the police even there in the first place? WHAT LeGAL ORDER

removes a paying passenger who has already boarded from a seat he is LEGALLY occupying, all for the purpose of seating non-paying people?

United screwed up big time, and all the justifications in the world are not going to overcome their poor decision making, nor is their defense by the authoritarian-minded.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:34 AM

126. The one thing overlooked about this

is that if you talk to anyone that works for an airline, they will tell you all airlines routinely overbook to cover no-shows

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Response to tikka (Reply #126)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:50 AM

133. And yet they still get the money for those no-shows. (nt)

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 11:52 AM

136. STOP THE STEREOTYPING

His ethnicity had nothing to do with it. The story is about a corporation treating its customers badly...period, end of story. Don't make it what it's not.

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Response to onetexan (Reply #136)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:28 PM

151. did they treat a non-minority this way?

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Response to niyad (Reply #151)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 07:39 PM

210. Did a non-minority refuse to vacate the seat when asked? eom

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #210)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 11:57 AM

247. did they DEMAND that a non-minority give up a legally purchased and occupied seat?

the defense of the indefensible on this board is nauseating.

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Response to niyad (Reply #247)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 02:13 PM

261. I am not defending ANYTHING.

I'm simply saying this was ABSOLUTELY NOT a racial incident. The doctor is not the only person who was selected to give up a seat. He's the only person who refused. If a white person had refused, they would have received the same treatment.

Crying racism when racism isn't there 1) distracts from the actual issues surrounding this situation, and 2) diminishes the effects of pointing out actual racism.

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #261)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 02:15 PM

262. you do not KNOW that a white person would have received the same disgusting treatment

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Response to niyad (Reply #262)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 02:16 PM

263. And you do not KNOW that they wouldn't have. eom

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #263)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 02:17 PM

264. perhaps not, but we can sure make a good guess.

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Response to onetexan (Reply #136)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 02:53 PM

178. Lol!

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Response to onetexan (Reply #136)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 02:00 AM

231. The doc said that it was because he was a Chinese man

 

That is racism and misandry.

The global community is also attributing the incident to racism.

Those people have suffered so much at the hands of America.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:40 PM

155. Don't feed the trolls, guys. n/t

This is the DU member formerly known as Stand and Fight.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:40 PM

156. Thanks for this post! I have blocked three posters now who have been posting unbelievable, hostile

garbage that doesn't belong on DU b/c of this story. The OP's story gives us some great photos and backstory. Then the posts started. It has been really depressing, and it happened again in this thread. I come to DU to escape the Trump "guilty before innocent" judgments and the childlike belief that corporations are always right and always work within appropriate limits. This story is appalling.

United has zero excuse for what they did, and I refuse to read any other DU posts that are either being posted by trolls for the lolz or posted by people who seriously believe that dragging the man off the plane (while the other passengers were screaming at the law "enforcement" types btw for hurting the guy) was perfectly okay because he "asked for it" somehow. This is just not something I'm going to tolerate anymore.

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Response to anneboleyn (Reply #156)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:52 PM

159. I must have put at least twenty people on ignore since yesterday.

Many of them are low-count posters. I think DU is being inundated by trolls who are bothered that this is such a good place for liberals to discuss politics and current events.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:50 PM

157. a well bred family of drs.

and they are treating him like a terrorist. Horrible

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 02:39 PM

173. Corporations are not all alike. United is seeming like one go the bad ones.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 02:50 PM

176. I had heard he started screaming when he was tazed .......... unconfirmed

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #176)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 06:16 PM

199. I wondered my self about that

That would definitely explain his "screeching" as described by some. Hopefully we will get more info on the lead up to the video soon. With the statement from a fellow passenger that he was polite but agitated prior to the video could point to a hand held tazer being used at that time.

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Response to duncang (Reply #199)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:08 PM

212. interesting, thanks

 

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 05:49 PM

193. He's 69 years old? They beat up a senior citizen?

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Reply #193)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 03:30 AM

233. yes they did

& I hope he will she their pants off & win bigly to send a clear message to airlines not to trod on their customers & great them like dirt. Passengers have rights. The airlines have no problem taking our money & nickel & diming travelers for every little thing - things that once upon a time were part of your paid airfare.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 06:19 PM

200. This is a microcosm of how "free enterprise" ...

... uses the government when it's beneficial to the enterprise. The "invisible hand" beat this poor guy up using the government as the baton.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:06 PM

211. this post was so much better than I feared it would be

 

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 01:34 AM

229. I think the fact that he is from Vietnam may have something to do with the obvious fear

 

Nailed it........


Survives another round of American racism. Must be Saturday. Those poor people have suffered enough. If only there was a way of compensating them.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 04:59 AM

235. Certainly they could have found at least

one white male who could have been selected for removal. I am sure that such tactics would never have been used on a white male.

IMO, the airline is wholly at fault: a) for literally holding all passengers captive AFTER boarding and b) for displacing ANY paying passenger simply for its own ends or convenience. The fact that the airline enforced its action in such a brutal way is totally unacceptable. The fact that it tried to justify its actions by blaming the victim is reprehensible.

Also, IMO, the practice of overbooking needs review. I understand that it is a common practice and I understand the economic considerations involved. But ONCE passengers have ALREADY boarded the plane, UNLESS there is an emergency that can be categorized as force majeure, NO paying passenger should ever have to relinquish his/her seat. Period.

Here is one article that is quite informative: https://www.ft.com/content/e4cb5744-1e9d-11e7-a454-ab04428977f9

Did United handle its overbooking situation badly?

Yes. Aviation experts point to the fact that when overbooking occurs it usually happens before the plane is boarded, in contrast to the United case. In addition, United still had the option to raise its compensation offer to $1,350 — which could have resulted in some other volunteers — before removing the passenger against his will.

Airlines have no set rules about which passengers they will order off a flight first if there are not enough volunteers, but high-paying business class travellers or passengers travelling with children or the disabled are unlikely to be the first choice. Some airlines base it on order of check-in.

“It’s not 100 per cent foolproof but when situations are anticipated that there are too many customers for a given flight then this should be addressed proactively in advance ahead of departure by making new arrangements and seeking volunteers to stand down,” says Mr Strickland. “Even when passengers are forcibly denied boarding the idea is to handle this as tactfully and sensitively as possible.”



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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 05:46 AM

240. While there is no confusion about Dr. Dao's being a doctor,

there does seem to be confusion about WHICH Dr. Dao is the victim of UA brutality.

The confusion is true even though Dr. Dao's past should NOT matter at all, no matter which one he is. He was a VICTIM here and his past had absolutely zilch to do with that. Period.

Please see upthread where one post mentions the confusion as discovered in tweets. Please also see this, even though I cannot totally guarantee the source. http://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/politics/fake-info-from-united-airlines/69603365/

Here is some information about Dr. David Anh Duy Dao, the physician from Kentucky, who is Vietnamese American, and who studied medicine at Saigon University: https://www.everipedia.com/david-thanh-duc-dao-md/

Here is information about Dr. David Thanh Duc Dao, the physician from Louisiana, who studied medicine at Tulane University: https://www.doximity.com/pub/david-dao-md/1

The flight in question was headed for Louisville, KY, according to the report about Dr. David Anh Duy Dao, which gives credence to his being the correct doctor, i.e., the one from Elizabethtown, KY. The UA victim stated that he was Chinese rather than Vietnamese. ????? I know that there are many Vietnamese of Chinese origin. But still.

IMO, racism played a factor, not only in his selection and treatment, but also in the subsequent media coverage - no matter which Dr. Dao he is. I hope that we ultimately learn the truth. But that should have no influence on how we view this appalling incident.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Wed Apr 12, 2017, 08:12 AM

243. Wow people get angry because facts are reported

Did this doctor do anything to deserve this brutality? Does it matter, in assessing what happened here, if he has a history of being a a selfless family man and caring doctor or a pill-mill pervert doctor?

Those are the questions that I think are easily answered no and no.

But once a story is reported, the press is trained to dig deeper. Sometimes they come up with relevant things, sometimes not so much. It does possibly help explain the man's bizarre behavior in rushing back on the plane after the incident. Who's to say what is "news" though?

What is so stark to me is the anger with which people react when facts come out that they are afraid might negatively influence the way that people see the narrative. As if they are protecting their outrage by not permitting anything to be reported that might tarnish the meme they have cultivated. See, sometimes I think a fair criticism of liberals is that we are all over the truth when it fits our narrative, but angered and wanting to suppress things that don't fit that perfect narrative. I have yet to see one person who has "blamed the victim" in this instance, they have just discussed facts that are coming out. Should we suppress facts (in this case public records) because we are afraid it will confuse people? Isn't that anti-First Amendment paternalism?

I can only control how I think, and I think this doctor's history is totally irrelevant in explaining the over-reaction and violence of the officer and the outrageous policies and procedures utilized by United in bumping paid customers. But if I try to control how others think about it? Tell people they are wrong to even discuss things that are facts? I'm just going to experience backlash.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Thu Apr 13, 2017, 12:01 PM

248. They probably thought he was Chinese

A reporter at this mornings press conference was asking questions about China til his daughter said, "my family immigrated from Vietna!m."
This is the DU member formerly known as JonLP24.

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