Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,781 posts)
Mon Apr 10, 2017, 09:52 PM Apr 2017

Involuntary Bumping

No, not 70s dancing.

https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-right

DOT requires each airline to give all passengers who are bumped involuntarily a written statement describing their rights and explaining how the carrier decides who gets on an oversold flight and who doesn't. Those travelers who don't get to fly are frequently entitled to denied boarding compensation in the form of a check or cash. The amount depends on the price of their ticket and the length of the delay:

If you are bumped involuntarily and the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to get you to your final destination (including later connections) within one hour of your original scheduled arrival time, there is no compensation.
If the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to arrive at your destination between one and two hours after your original arrival time (between one and four hours on international flights), the airline must pay you an amount equal to 200% of your one-way fare to your final destination that day, with a $675 maximum.
If the substitute transportation is scheduled to get you to your destination more than two hours later (four hours internationally), or if the airline does not make any substitute travel arrangements for you, the compensation doubles (400% of your one-way fare, $1350 maximum).
If your ticket does not show a fare (for example, a frequent-flyer award ticket or a ticket issued by a consolidator), your denied boarding compensation is based on the lowest cash, check or credit card payment charged for a ticket in the same class of service (e.g., coach, first class) on that flight.
You always get to keep your original ticket and use it on another flight. If you choose to make your own arrangements, you can request an "involuntary refund" for the ticket for the flight you were bumped from. The denied boarding compensation is essentially a payment for your inconvenience.
If you paid for optional services on your original flight (e.g., seat selection, checked baggage) and you did not receive those services on your substitute flight or were required to pay a second time, the airline that bumped you must refund those payments to you.
Like all rules, however, there are a few conditions and exceptions:

To be eligible for compensation, you must have a confirmed reservation. A written confirmation issued by the airline or an authorized agent or reservation service qualifies you in this regard even if the airline can't find your reservation in the computer, as long as you didn't cancel your reservation or miss a reconfirmation deadline.
Each airline has a check-in deadline, which is the amount of time before scheduled departure that you must present yourself to the airline at the airport. For domestic flights most carriers require you to be at the departure gate between 10 minutes and 30 minutes before scheduled departure, but some deadlines can be an hour or longer. Check-in deadlines on international flights can be as much as three hours before scheduled departure time. Some airlines may simply require you to be at the ticket/baggage counter by this time; most, however, require that you get all the way to the boarding area. Some may have deadlines at both locations. If you miss the check-in deadline, you may have lost your reservation and your right to compensation if the flight is oversold.
As noted above, no compensation is due if the airline arranges substitute transportation which is scheduled to arrive at your destination within one hour of your originally scheduled arrival time.

If the airline must substitute a smaller plane for the one it originally planned to use, the carrier isn't required to pay people who are bumped as a result. In addition, on flights using aircraft with 30 through 60 passenger seats, compensation is not required if you were bumped due to safety-related aircraft weight or balance constraints.

The rules do not apply to charter flights, or to scheduled flights operated with planes that hold fewer than 30 passengers. They don't apply to international flights inbound to the United States, although some airlines on these routes may follow them voluntarily. Also, if you are flying between two foreign cities -- from Paris to Rome, for example -- these rules will not apply. The European Commission has a rule on bumpings that occur in an EC country; ask the airline for details, or go to http://ec.europa.eu/transport/passengers/air/air_en.htm [external link].

Airlines set their own "boarding priorities" -- the order in which they will bump different categories of passengers in an oversale situation. When a flight is oversold and there are not enough volunteers, some airlines bump passengers with the lowest fares first. Others bump the last passengers to check in. Once you have purchased your ticket, the most effective way to reduce the risk of being bumped is to get to the airport early. For passengers in the same fare class the last passengers to check in are usually the first to be bumped, even if they have met the check-in deadline. Allow extra time; assume that the roads are backed up, the parking lot is full, and there is a long line at the check-in counter.

Airlines may offer free tickets or dollar-amount vouchers for future flights in place of a check for denied boarding compensation. However, if you are bumped involuntarily you have the right to insist on a check if that is your preference. Once you cash the check (or accept the free flight), you will probably lose the ability to pursue more money from the airline later on. However, if being bumped costs you more money than the airline will pay you at the airport, you can try to negotiate a higher settlement with their complaint department. If this doesn't work, you usually have 30 days from the date on the check to decide if you want to accept the amount of the check. You are always free to decline the check (e.g., not cash it) and take the airline to court to try to obtain more compensation. DOT's denied boarding regulation spells out the airlines' minimum obligation to people they bump involuntarily. Finally, don't be a "no-show." If you are holding confirmed reservations you don't plan to use, notify the airline. If you don't, they will cancel all onward or return reservations on your trip.

13 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies

hank1920

(9 posts)
1. ASSAULT, KIDNAPPING... and the sudden empowerment of the coperat body as an extension of the state.
Mon Apr 10, 2017, 10:39 PM
Apr 2017

Im reading all that crap in the thread above me. Its not the point... This guy's constitutional rights (rights that cannot be contracted away) were violated in so many ways I just cant count.

And yeah, so a corporation that screws up can now call the local thugs (oops I meant to say police) to commit assault, kidnapping and forcible confinement with no obvious and immediate consequence.

WTF? Did I just arrive in N Korea?

And as to complete corporate stupidity: What happened to basic market-driven problem solving... All these twits had to do was run an auction on compensation by open outcry on the plane. At come some point a buyer would meet the seller (of the alternative flight plan) and a nice happy person would have left the plane with some amount of compensation that wont even come close to the gross financial value of the downside these dummies are enduring and will endure.

Why are airlines ALWAYS so completely stupid and inconsiderate of the lack of joy that is air travel today?

cos dem

(902 posts)
2. Exactly right. There's "what's legal" and there's "good business"
Mon Apr 10, 2017, 11:27 PM
Apr 2017

United may have been within their legal right (although I sure hope that ended when the assault and battery started). But this was an abysmal business decision.

dalton99a

(81,391 posts)
3. There are many things that are legal that you shouldn't do as a business person or as a human being.
Mon Apr 10, 2017, 11:56 PM
Apr 2017

davekriss

(4,616 posts)
4. "did I just arrive in North Korea?"
Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:13 AM
Apr 2017

Don't be silly. If this was North Korea the CEO of United would have taken the Doctor outside and executed him with an anti-aircraft gun.

But it could be Syria, or Chad, or Turkmenistan, or Saudia Arabia, or....

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,781 posts)
5. Balderdash
Tue Apr 11, 2017, 01:04 AM
Apr 2017

Let's go down the list: he wasn't denied the right to speak; publish a newspaper; or practice his religion. Unless he's an air marshal, he was denied the right to bear an arm, but we all agree to that in the social contract that is air travel. He wasn't forced to quarter troops. He wasn't forced to bear witness against himself. He wasn't punished cruelly or unusually. He was not illegally searched (another thing we all agree to that in the social contract that is air travel) and he wasn't denied due process.

1) The passenger's ticket agreement indicates that the passenger may be involuntarily bumped, and indicates that the passenger is entitled to compensation when that happens.

2) When a member of the flight crew (the Pilot, the co-Pilot, or any flight attendant) gives a direction to a passenger to enable the safe operation of the aircraft, and the passenger refuses to comply, then the passenger is in violation of 14 C.F.R. §§ 91.11, 121.580, 135.120. No person may assault, threaten, intimidate, or interfere with a crewmember in the performance of the crewmember's duties aboard an aircraft being operated.

Long story short: the passenger was legally bumped; refused a lawful order to deplane; and was removed because he was in violation of federal law at that point.

hank1920

(9 posts)
6. youre wrong on the law...
Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:37 AM
Apr 2017

fancy but wrong.

frpm another poster...

"Followed established procedures"...? United's own "Contract of Carriage" only allows passengers to be involuntarily denied boarding (Rule 25) before boarding. Once they've already boarded, Rule 25 goes out the window, and Rule 21 takes effect, which covers "refusal of transport" and only applies to specific circumstances, NONE of which applied in this incident.

Once passengers were boarded, United's only option was to keep raising the compensation until they got four passengers to accept it. Instead, it seems like they decided to lowball the situation by, first, simply declaring that four people had to leave, then offering far less than is justified under those circumstances, then calling in the thugs. All for poor planning, and the unwillingness to spend enough cash to work out an agreeable settlement. In the long run, it's likely going to be a case of "penny wise, pound foolish," as whatever they might have needed to pay to get volunteers will be a drop in the bucket compared to how much they are going to have to pay this passenger -- not to mention the millions in bad P.R.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
7. You could be right about Rule 21. I know nothing about that.
Tue Apr 11, 2017, 08:47 AM
Apr 2017

But you're making a lot of assumptions at the same time.

We don't know if "poor planning" was part of it. Supposedly there were hundreds -I actually read "thousands" somewhere- of flight delays and cancellations. So they were probably trying to alleviate an already dire situation.

They have an upper limit on compensation. Otherwise, passengers would deliberately hold out for more and more and more.

"Thugs" shows your bias. These were police officers doing their job. When a passenger is told to leave and refuses, they are justified in forcing him from the plane.

And yes, the first call to the passengers was to politely (my assumption) ask if four people would volunteer to catch another flight. That's just common sense, not "penny pinching".
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

hank1920

(9 posts)
8. Let the market decide the price...
Tue Apr 11, 2017, 09:04 AM
Apr 2017

The CAP is the problem. Airlines use marginal pricing to maximize the revenue for every last seat. They strive to get the maximum the market will bear. They should have to live with discipline of the market when they are on the bid as opposed to the offer.

The market, ie. an auction process with no cap, should be how they have to price their ineptitude or the failures of their load balancing models.

The cap mis-prices the situation by definition.

Auction is the best mechanism to gauge the right price given the circumstances...

wed aft price of missing the DC N YC shuttle, $100. Thursday night, last flight from NYC to LA the day before thanksgiving? $5000? Who knows... but it should be the p[passengers that decide the value of their inconvenience, not the government acting as corporate bitch.

My opinion of the Police action in this situation isn't relevant to the basic economic argument. Nut I do resent the use of Police to enforce a civil action that should have been dealt with with cash as opposed to violence.






Algernon Moncrieff

(5,781 posts)
9. I'll disagree that I was wrong
Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:19 PM
Apr 2017

I'll agree 100% they should have raised the offer.

I suspect that a judge will determine which one of us is right.

hank1920

(9 posts)
13. the power of the auction
Tue Apr 11, 2017, 03:57 PM
Apr 2017

You and I will find out. dot rules allow you to sue if you arent happy with the compensation...

I wrote this earlier to our agreed point on comp:

The CAP is the problem. Airlines use marginal pricing to maximize the revenue for every last seat. They strive to get the maximum the market will bear. They should have to live with discipline of the market when they are on the bid as opposed to the offer.

The market, ie. an auction process with no cap, should be how they have to price their ineptitude or the failures of their load balancing models.

The cap mis-prices the situation by definition.

Auction is the best mechanism to gauge the right price given the circumstances...

wed aft price of missing the DC N YC shuttle, $100. Thursday night, last flight from NYC to LA the day before thanksgiving? $5000? Who knows... but it should be the p
My opinion of the Police action in this situation isn't relevant to the basic economic argument. Nut I do resent the use of Police to enforce a civil action that should have been dealt with with cash as opposed to violence.

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
11. I was bumped from a US Airways flight several years ago
Tue Apr 11, 2017, 12:23 PM
Apr 2017

I happily deposited their check for $1000 in my bank account and flew out the next day.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Involuntary Bumping