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Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:04 PM

For once, focus your bloodlust on Republicans --instead of the DLC/Firebaggers/ANYONE WITHOUT AN (R)

You Just keep on Pushing My Love Over the Borderline
By John Cole June 29th, 2012

The ACA is now the law of the land, it was upheld, and regardless of whether you wanted single payer or the mandate to buy private insurance, conservatives lost and will never repeal this.



......................Obama wants to move on and talk about jobs and the economy, but for those of us in the rank and file, this decision is an unlimited ammo dump. Keep pressing the advantage, keep talking about the benefits that consumers will experience under the law, keep mocking the “socialism” and “unconstitutional” claims, and keep moving forward. Remember, this is easy turf. A couple years ago Republicans were arguing that crushing a child’s testicles was constitutional. Now they want to argue that denying your child health care when he has leukemia is constitutional. [font color=red]Go in for the fucking kill, liberals[/font]

For once in your god damned lives, put aside your fucking stupid beliefs about purity and how the public option was the bestest thing since sliced bread, accept the massive, game-changing victory you got today, and use it as a god damned bludgeon against the troglodytes whose health care plans are modeled after Ebeneezer Scrooge. For once, focus your bloodlust on Republicans instead of the DLC/Firebaggers/ANYONE WITHOUT AN (R) AFTER THEIR NAME. I’m begging you.

For once in your lives turn a win into a win, just like the Republicans were able to do when I was a wingnut (and half the time they were able to turn a loss into a win). Don’t argue amongst yourselves about what would have been better- smash the Republicans around the head and neck with the cudgel you have been given. We’re not debating which Democratic plan would have been better, we’re debating the reality of what we have now versus the 18th century version of what Republicans would replace it with.

Again, as a former wingnut and lifelong Republican until 2006 or 2007, I am fucking begging- treat a win like a win and use it to your advantage. The most depressing thing about becoming a Democrat after being a Republican for so many years is just watching Democrats shit the bed whenever they win. Press the fucking advantage.

Please?

MORE:
http://www.balloon-juice.com/2012/06/29/you-just-keep-on-pushing-my-love-over-the-borderline/

(no more purity for me)

133 replies, 23239 views

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Reply For once, focus your bloodlust on Republicans --instead of the DLC/Firebaggers/ANYONE WITHOUT AN (R) (Original post)
kpete Jul 2012 OP
Wait Wut Jul 2012 #1
Zalatix Jul 2012 #63
OKNancy Jul 2012 #2
pnwmom Jul 2012 #3
russspeakeasy Jul 2012 #4
patrice Jul 2012 #8
patrice Jul 2012 #5
TexasTowelie Jul 2012 #6
kentuck Jul 2012 #7
patrice Jul 2012 #10
kentuck Jul 2012 #15
Chan790 Jul 2012 #23
kentuck Jul 2012 #25
kenfrequed Jul 2012 #105
chknltl Jul 2012 #37
Chan790 Jul 2012 #43
chknltl Jul 2012 #49
Chan790 Jul 2012 #50
chknltl Jul 2012 #55
xtraxritical Jul 2012 #97
chknltl Jul 2012 #111
woo me with science Jul 2012 #132
chknltl Jul 2012 #133
kenfrequed Jul 2012 #106
chknltl Jul 2012 #120
kenfrequed Jul 2012 #121
chknltl Jul 2012 #130
PavePusher Jul 2012 #89
Chan790 Jul 2012 #96
PavePusher Jul 2012 #98
Chan790 Jul 2012 #116
kenfrequed Jul 2012 #108
Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #36
bvar22 Jul 2012 #44
newthinking Jul 2012 #65
SunSeeker Jul 2012 #115
silverweb Jul 2012 #16
kentuck Jul 2012 #19
silverweb Jul 2012 #47
Zalatix Jul 2012 #64
Sheepshank Jul 2012 #84
xtraxritical Jul 2012 #101
Marrah_G Jul 2012 #9
patrice Jul 2012 #12
EFerrari Jul 2012 #62
newthinking Jul 2012 #66
EFerrari Jul 2012 #68
BlueCaliDem Jul 2012 #11
Poll_Blind Jul 2012 #13
woo me with science Jul 2012 #14
RufusTFirefly Jul 2012 #17
boppers Jul 2012 #26
woo me with science Jul 2012 #30
boppers Jul 2012 #48
rudycantfail Jul 2012 #112
OnyxCollie Jul 2012 #51
progressoid Jul 2012 #61
a2liberal Jul 2012 #73
dionysus Jul 2012 #75
Sheepshank Jul 2012 #85
Mojorabbit Jul 2012 #131
Auntie Bush Jul 2012 #18
Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #38
gtar100 Jul 2012 #60
treestar Jul 2012 #20
DevonRex Jul 2012 #21
Flatpicker Jul 2012 #22
iamthebandfanman Jul 2012 #24
DJ13 Jul 2012 #27
iamthebandfanman Jul 2012 #46
OnyxCollie Jul 2012 #52
FreeBC Jul 2012 #28
Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #29
bvar22 Jul 2012 #31
scheming daemons Jul 2012 #34
bvar22 Jul 2012 #40
SunSeeker Jul 2012 #58
bvar22 Jul 2012 #95
SunSeeker Jul 2012 #107
bvar22 Jul 2012 #113
SunSeeker Jul 2012 #117
bvar22 Jul 2012 #118
SunSeeker Jul 2012 #119
bvar22 Jul 2012 #122
SunSeeker Jul 2012 #123
bvar22 Jul 2012 #124
SunSeeker Jul 2012 #125
bvar22 Jul 2012 #127
Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #39
Amonester Jul 2012 #56
chknltl Jul 2012 #67
PBass Jul 2012 #70
PBass Jul 2012 #71
bvar22 Jul 2012 #94
SidDithers Jul 2012 #32
JDPriestly Jul 2012 #33
hfojvt Jul 2012 #35
bvar22 Jul 2012 #41
TheKentuckian Jul 2012 #45
PBass Jul 2012 #69
Fumesucker Jul 2012 #78
hfojvt Jul 2012 #86
Fumesucker Jul 2012 #102
hfojvt Jul 2012 #83
rudycantfail Jul 2012 #114
spanone Jul 2012 #42
tblue37 Jul 2012 #53
kentuck Jul 2012 #54
EFerrari Jul 2012 #57
SunSeeker Jul 2012 #59
October Jul 2012 #72
amerciti001 Jul 2012 #74
TheKentuckian Jul 2012 #82
DRoseDARs Jul 2012 #76
warrprayer Jul 2012 #77
Greybnk48 Jul 2012 #79
Fumesucker Jul 2012 #80
Greybnk48 Jul 2012 #87
Fumesucker Jul 2012 #104
warrprayer Jul 2012 #92
Bobbie Jo Jul 2012 #81
arthritisR_US Jul 2012 #88
yurbud Jul 2012 #90
zipplewrath Jul 2012 #91
yurbud Jul 2012 #93
Romulox Jul 2012 #99
Romulox Jul 2012 #100
Martin Eden Jul 2012 #103
Ship of Fools Jul 2012 #129
dtom67 Jul 2012 #109
Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #110
silverweb Jul 2012 #126
kctim Jul 2012 #128

Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:07 PM

1. Since you said "please".



Oh...wait...I've been doing that all along.

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Response to Wait Wut (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 02:56 AM

63. Because he said please.

 

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:08 PM

2. I love this rant.

Unfortunately some purists don't even care about winning. It's "beneath" them, you know.. all that cheering and happiness.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:09 PM

3. K & R. n/t

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:11 PM

4. THE ONLY FOCUS NOW SHOULD BE THE ECONOMY.

Love it, or hate it, ACA has become law.
The only way BHO gets re-elected is JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS.

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Response to russspeakeasy (Reply #4)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:17 PM

8. This right and good, because it puts LABOR at least near the cat-bird-seat . . .

now, for some BOLD creativity!!!! directed specifically and concretely at economic class-warfare.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:13 PM

5. We NEEEEED to discover & value what we really do share, more than what our differences are

Instead of pretending that what we share is 0.

Every Democrat KNOWS that the ONLY thing Republicans have going for them is the fact that they stick together and, yet, we continue to think there is some kind of great mystery in our defeats, which justifies us NOT sticking together, so we all go around bludgeoning one another FOR THE BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, in order to avoid feeling powerless and, thus, continue to disempower ourselves more and more and more.

..........................

present company included.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:16 PM

6. I'm already doing what has been asked.

I'm in the trenches blogging on a rural conservative Website sticking it to the right-wingers in their own backyard and in their faces. Furthermore, I'm not afraid to stoop to their tactics.

While I've written and posted serious articles about ACA, I also some use some humor such as The Affordable Care Cat photos and the Covered/Not Covered ICanCheezburger meme.

Call me sadistic, but nothing makes my day more than pissing off a teabagger.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:16 PM

7. Personally, I think this is the wrong strategy...

Nobody is going to change their minds between now and November.

Rather than attacking the Republicans as lying scumbags, which they are, it would get more people out to vote for our side if we had a more positive and visionary message. Because, whichever side gets out the vote will win the next election.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #7)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:20 PM

10. The gut level of what we are dealing with does not necessarily respond to nice. There are ways of

"ATTACKING" without attacking.

Ask almost ANY woman.

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Response to patrice (Reply #10)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:30 PM

15. My point is:

Does it get more Democrats to the polls? Republicans thrive on division. I'm not sure we can compete with them with their guidelines. People should want to vote for Democrats for what they believe in and what they stand for, rather than saying they are not as bad as those dirty, lying Republicans...

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Response to kentuck (Reply #15)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 04:38 PM

23. "Nice" loses.

 

I am 100% opposed 100% of the time to nice. "Nice" doesn't get people to the polls, reason sways nothing, violence crushes revolutionary ideas. Politics is gladiatorial bloodsport and the people that do not grasp that are better off sitting on the sidelines. When your enemy is injured, you run them through and spill their lifeblood upon the sands...you do not try to be the better person. Division as you put it, is the only tactic; we whither upon our refusal to wield it.

Suckerpunch the motherfuckers in the groin then kick their teeth in while you mock and belittle them. It's the only way bullies like the GOP ever learn anything.

"Have you punched a conservative today? Why not? Don't you want to win?"

(Metaphorically speaking.)

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #23)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 04:40 PM

25. When you wrestle with a pig, you get dirty....

...and the pig loves it!

You gotta have something else.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #25)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:56 PM

105. Sorry but no.

Unless you can get your message bold and powerful then all the 'make nice' in the world will fail, fail, fail.

We have to be bold, we have to be progressive, and we have to underline and highlight the differences between the failed politics of the republican party and ourselves. When whe blur them, the right runs on identity politics, scandal, and weird religious issues.

Going on the attack is what we MUST do.

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #23)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 06:03 PM

37. if you were in a foxhole with a freeper and the corporatists were coming...

...to get both of you...shooting the freeper helps how? Make no mistake about it. The corporatists are the real enemy to We The People. Make no mistake, we are all in that foxhole with you. Yes it is true, that freeper has his gun aimed at you and you have yours aimed at him. The cocksuckers who are OUR true enemy are laughing at you both...they laugh all the way to the bank, which they own which has in it the money we once owned. Btw those corporatists I mentioned, they are currently overruning our foxhole. Supposedly we on the left are the smart ones...

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Response to chknltl (Reply #37)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 06:50 PM

43. You always "shoot" an ally you can't trust.

 

End of story. He's vanquished and you can turn your full attentions on the "real enemy" without having to keep one eye on your shoulder to make sure you're not going to take one in the back.

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #43)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 08:05 PM

49. advocating for a civil war...

Shooting an ally in the back? I can not imagine the real enemy disagreeing with you. Hell, I would bet there are gun manufacturers, maybe even the NRA who, would pay folks to say what you say here in this thread....and laugh at you behind your back as they count the profits you make them.

Look, let me be clear. We are losing our democracy to the corporatists. We can NOT go toe to toe with them financially to take back that democracy. Do you get that? Thanks to the corporations, we have Citizens United. Now foreign interests and even foreign governments can spend money to influence our political system. We the people don't have the cash to go up against our own billionaires much less to go up against ...oh say CHINA. We are at war and we are getting our asses handed to us. Wisconsin proved that.

But there is one thing that scares the hell out of them. American history showed the world what happens when the sleeping giant got woke up. Just imagine how things would have been if some how Japan had found a way to keep half of our citizenry at the throats of the other half of our citizenry. That clearly would have sucked for us.

America is waking up. That thing that scares the hell out of them is a united electorate at the polls. If this were not true, then why are they trying so hard to suppress the vote for so many of our citizenry? If this were not true then why are they spending so much money to keep us divided?

We need MORE folks at the polls not less or worse an electorate engaged in a civil war....fire the first shot and civil war is what you get! Stirring up the electorate to shoot at each other is the job of the corporatists, and those who blindly do their bidding.

We have been going about things half assed so far...happy with the results? I am not but the enemy corporatists are seeing record profits so.....are you with us or are you with the corporatists?

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Response to chknltl (Reply #49)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 11:13 PM

50. If you're advocating that we need be allies with conservatives, you're with the corporatists...

 

at least as far as I'm concerned.

We're where we are because too many inside the Democratic tent are unwilling to face the reality that there is no breaking bread with conservatives and they are the enemy. We absolutely can go toe-to-toe with all comers when we stop listening to the idiocy of people who say moronic scheiß like "we need to be on the same side as the teahadists against the corporatists"

We need have no common ground with conservatives. There is no there there. It's imperative that we stop thinking that there is any common cause to be had. Conservatives are the handmaidens of the corporations...the only path to unity with them is capitulation. There is one enemy where you're trying ever so hard to make two.

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #50)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:23 AM

55. There is one enemy where You would make two

How many ex republicans are out there right now...
Even here in the DU we have ex republicans.

Regardless of you being right or wrong, how do you react when someone is being belligerent to you?

How many of those ex republicans would have become ex republicans with a democrat shouting or worse shooting at them?

Not everyone who supports the republican party are extremists!

Look to the example of Iraq, right after the fall of Iraq we had the citizens on our side....that lasted until they got treated like hell. How different things could have been had we treated them as we treated Germany under the Marshal Plan.

No the republican supporters are not being treated like hell in the same way as the citizens of Iraq were, they catch verbal abuse from us and economic plunder from the corporatists. Many, those who are less exposed to the belligerent asses on our side, switch sides when they see who is really robbing them. But they are less inclined to do so when they think switching sides means joining a bunch of assholes.

When Barrack Obama was running for POTUS my neighbor was on the fence between him and McCain. This neighbor and his wife had ONLY voted straight republican all the way back to Eisenhower. He was a retired deputy chief of police for Tacoma. He and I became friends, we discussed politics at length...we NEVER shouted at each other and I confess I went easy on him.
Him and his wife voted for Obama that year...they will likely do so again. Do you think if I followed an all out war with this couple the results would have been the same? Before he met me, if there was an all out civil war which side do you suppose he would have backed?

There are thousands of stories like this across our land, your way ensures they don't get the chance to join us. The vast majority of citizens of this nation are not extremists who see only violence as a way to win their perceived goals...I confess I do not know how to win over the extremists...from either side.

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Response to chknltl (Reply #49)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:16 PM

97. Why not "keep it simple" and VOTE A STRAIGHT DEMOCRATIC BALLOT?

 

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Response to xtraxritical (Reply #97)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 04:04 PM

111. i do, have done so since i turned 18.

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Response to chknltl (Reply #49)

Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:56 AM

132. Wish I could rec this post 1000 times.

You see through the bullshit. Now we just have to get to the rest of the country...

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #132)

Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:38 PM

133. hey there woo me...

Chknltl here...
Thought this thread was long dead so imagine my surprise when I get the notification in my posts.

On the assumption that you were addressing my response. Am I correct in thinking you agree that the bloodless civil war between supporters of both parties needs to come to and end if Democracy in America is to survive?

If so, thank you! I have long danced around this notion here in the DU and out in the real world while debating my republican friends. Here in the DU my notions on this get at best ignored and at worst I get screamed at, called stupid and placed on ignore.

As I post this, an example related to this philosophy goes on here in the DU. The example was triggered by the shootings in Aurora Colorado. On one side here, we have extremist anti-gun advocates, on the other, extreme pro-gun advocates. In the middle is the rest of us. Over the past several days there has been a 'civil war' between these two with many of us lining up to some degree on one side or the other. I would hazard to guess that at its peak, 50% of our threads devoted some time to this civil war.

Think about it, we are the Democratic Underground, our democracy is hanging in the balance this upcoming election and yet we who should be fighting together here are doing what? Spending an incredible amount of our precious time, wasting it imho, tearing into each other and in some cases creating divisions here that may never get healed!

Only yesterday did I see some reaching out, it came (unexpectedly but with hindsight I should have expected it) from those who favored guns, not the anti-gun crowd. I am sure the pro gun extremists hardly approved of moderates within their ranks reaching out like this but for our own civil war to end, this sort of common sense needed to happen.

Eventually the extremists from both sides of our DU war will retreat to their separate corners and we can all focus on the real WAR that needs our attention, but our own extremists will always be there, ever ready for the opportunity to lead us to distraction.

THAT is how I see my country right now. The bulk of the electorate is moderate, most citizens having both right and left leaning notions on a whole host of issues. We have on the fringes, the extremists, ever ready to lead us off to battle. When the election cycle comes around these extremists pull some moderates their way and push some moderates to the other side by engaging in battle with them. I am of the opinion, that we who are watching, need to be aware that it is these extremist firebrands who are pushing potential allies away from the progressive cause. Most of the electorate,when polled lean left when it comes to what we as progressives would identify as common sense solutions to the issues which we face. If We the people expect to win this in this war on our democracy, we will need each and every vote we can get on our side. Somehow, we need to awaken the extremists on our side to this concept in order to get them to stop pushing some of our citizenry over to the corporatists camp.

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Response to chknltl (Reply #37)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:59 PM

106. Uhm this is absurd.

The freeper is the one the corporatists send for you.




Actually your comparison doesn't work. Any attempt to bridge any meaning out of it is doomed to failure.

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Response to kenfrequed (Reply #106)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 09:41 PM

120. Hmm freepers are not citzens of America?

Are these same citizens not subject to the same economic pillage we at DU face?

What I believe is that there is much we share despite our ideologies being different.

Neither of these two statements are absurd.

Not so long ago we here in the DU despised Chief Justice Roberts because of Citizens United.Some advocated strongly for his impeachment. Has that changed because of our perception of what he did in regards to ACA?

The entire right has gone ballistic over ACA, many claiming he committed treason. Looks like we share something else now doesn't it? Well we do but we are too busy giving each other high fives and laughing at the right because they didn't get their way. This in no way changes the fact that Chief Justice Roberts is a massive threat to OUR democracy. My "TOLD YOU FUCKING SO... DAMN IT!" will change nothing when he fuck us over again...that is IF he hasn't just did exactly that AGAIN as Thom Hartmann fears.

Too bad the extremists on the left and extremists on the right, despite their ideological differences couldn't work together, if just for the briefest moment to push our Congress to impeach that bastard. I know, monkeys will fly out of my butt first....too bad because in theory, it might just work. I see this as a perfect example of two extremists, in the same fucking foxhole with their rifles aimed directly at each other. Justice Roberts is laughing at both sides....all the way to the bank owned by our shared enemy.

That should be enough of a bridge for you but if not please read on to understand my motives.


For some Americans, we think differently, we believe in a 'we' society, most of us who call ourselves progressive think that way.
Another group of Americans believe in a 'me' society. They call themselves conservative.

That said, there is an even bigger selection of American citizens who are in between these two ideologies.

These citizens can be pushed or pulled from one side to the other.

Deeper thinkers than I feel that those who lean towords the 'me' society get changed over to the 'we' society when that society fits in with their selfish needs. For instance, when they see their conservative ideologies draining their own wallets (as in cost them their job as they watch it go offshore). This does not mean that they have changed ideology, they are still 'me society' oriented but they switch side and vote with us because they want their job back, or because they want cheaper medical cost for a loved one or they want their home to not be taken by the bank and etc.

These same deeper thinkers predict that when enough of these 'me society' types get screwed hard enough by the exact same forces that screw you and me, there will be a swelling of our ranks. Eventually We The People will have the numbers on our side to bring about the change America needs.

My whole argument in this thread revolves around NOT pushing these potential allies away. We will never change each others ideologies but we share just enough that we can be brought together even faster OR we can only look to our differences and shove ourselves apart. Considering what is on the line: democracy in America, and considering that we on the left are being outspent by at least 8 to1 (conservative estimate of who got what in Wisconsin), we MUST grow our ranks on the left if we are to survive.

I stand by what I say when I say we are in the same foxhole together. We are the 99%, but there is woefully less than 99% of us aware that we are in that foxhole. Worse, far too many who do know it are way too eager to pitch a hand grenade in there with us. Those who are unaware, can be pushed or pulled to either side...let's coax them our way.

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Response to chknltl (Reply #120)

Tue Jul 3, 2012, 10:06 AM

121. Right...whatever

Are corporatists not people?

Really, your post is so full of false equivalencies and tactics that will result in losing. Again.

Only having a bold stance will attract peoples attentions. Playing little miss moderate accomplishes several things and all of them are terrible.

1) By constantly moving to the middle it validates conservative ideas as being good or having some merit. After all (people think) if they didn't have merit then why would people move that direction?

2) We tried being 'moderate' or whatever between 2009 and 2010, precisely what kind of good did that actually do us? I seem to recall constant fillibusters, gridlock, anonymous holds, and legislative chicanery. Did those that engage in this pay a political price?

3) As a matter of fact the 'extreme left' has predicted succesfully the results of most of the stupid policies of the last couple of decades including various wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Nafta, stupid tax cuts, deregulation, etc.

What is our reward? Well the third-way sorts and Blue Dogs get the leadership positions in the committees. Oh yeah, and we get ignored by the media and castigated by the Emmanual Rahm's and Evan Bayh's of the world. Plus I have to personally put up with Ode's to Bipartisanship on DU.

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Response to kenfrequed (Reply #121)

Sat Jul 7, 2012, 06:17 PM

130. you speak of politicians, I speak of citizenry.

I do agree with all you say when it comes to politicians. So far the only republican politician I am aware of who is against citizens united is the Lt.Governor of Montana.

I am talking about the voting electorate. Many lifelong republicans are switching sides. Most I suspect not because of their ideology, but instead because they have felt the bite of the corporatist run republican agenda. Many are realizing that their leaders sold them out-out of jobs,out of homes,out of health care and etc.

My whole argument here is that WE THE PEOPLE, not the politicians who do NOT represent us, are in the same foxhole. The extremists from either side are aiming their guns at each other while the majority in the middle are slowly moving left because of what the politicians on the right are doing.

I am further arguing that we on the left need to not shove these citizens away by being belligerent. Talking not shouting is what will aid their transition. The greater our electorate numbers are the better chance we have of removing not only blue dogs but the entire neocon-corporatist. agenda.

This change can come through the polls or come through a mass uprising of those exact same citizens. Mass uprisings can get messy.....unlike others, I would see our citizenry avoid that.....'mess'.

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #23)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 12:12 PM

89. Rhetoric of violence, anyone?

 

Isn't this what we accuse the Repubs, etc., of?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #89)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:10 PM

96. 2 points, though you can probably guess both of them.

 

1.) I embrace such rhetoric. In fact, the criticism of it is something I view as central to why we lose. Milquetoast reasoned tactics never defeat stridency and might of conviction. Even Gandhi conceded the primary reason he embraced pacifism was for lack of guns or forces to wield them; it's intrinsic to the 4th indictment of the British in the Purna Swaraj* (The 1930 Indian Declaration of Independence which the Indian National Congress led by Nehru and Gandhi ratified). It goes on only to reject violence because they're not capable of inflicting violence. Even his non-violence was strident and his rhetoric aggressive. In the later civil war against Pakistan he supported the use of force. I ask you further, have you ever read Rules For Radicals? Alinsky's rhetoric and tactic is far more aggressive than my own.

2.) I spent four years of college pretending to be a conservative so I could climb the ranks of the College Republicans to learn their tactics because they win and we lose. I did quite well at that; getting elected to national leadership posts and sent on scholarship to learn the game under the best they have. I only fucking care about winning. Winning is the only important thing. It's not a parley or a chess game of ideas, it's a war of ideas. Refusing to embrace aggression and conflict is why we lose.

Less thinking, more viciousness. Your mealy pacifism is something we can do without. At least have the strong vibrant aggressive non-violence that is not capitulation.

*-Spiritually, compulsory disarmament has made us unmanly, and the presence of an alien army of occupation, employed with deadly effect to crush in us the spirit of resistance, has made us think that we cannot look after ourselves or put up a defense against foreign aggression, or even defend our homes and families from the attacks of thieves, robbers and miscreants.

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #96)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:18 PM

98. "Your mealy pacifism..." WTF?

 

It is quite obvious that you know little about me.

Less thinking, more viciousness.

Looks like a TOS violation to me.

it's a war of ideas

Only valuble thing you've said thus far.

At least have the strong vibrant aggressive non-violence that is not capitulation.

You haven't seen my gun closet, have you? Sigh...

I urge you to visit the "Gungeon", it might be edifying for you.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #98)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 05:14 PM

116. Hmm.

 

I think we're so far into rhetoric at this point we've lost the idea in this debate. Let me see if I can boil this down to the most-simple stripped-down position I can:

We won and they're on the canvas...so let's kick them when they're down by getting as much done as we can. That both means no internal fighting and it means giving conservatives no rest in their weary defeated state.

I just don't want to let them get their feet under them again. We have a momentum and strategic upper-hand that we should use the hell out of for as long as we can by going on the attack. We won ACA, we're likely going to win the election, the price of gas is dropping, we might be seeing progress on the economy, we've made progress on gay-rights, what else can we take? Now is not the time to pull back or assume a defensive position. Now is the time when reasoned incremental progress should yield to taking what we can and moving the marker.

I'm not apologetic about this. I understand their drive for a permanent Republican majority (though I intend to deny them one to the best of my ability) because I want a permanent liberal majority. Anything we can do to shove our agenda forward and help them implode too.

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #96)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 02:02 PM

108. Precisely

Democrats think that an election is debate society, Republicans treat it as war.

Democrats think of everything as an elegant game of chess, Republicans play poker and will bluff their asses off. If you never call them on it, you will never beat them.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #15)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 05:54 PM

36. Here's a thought

 

Repeat after me: See how the Republicans tear the country apart? It's all a game to them.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #15)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 07:01 PM

44. What gets Democrats to The Polls?

This guy has the answer:
[font size=4]
"I've seen it happen time after time. When the Democratic candidate allows himself to be put on the defensive and starts apologizing for the New Deal and the Fair Deal, and says he really doesn't believe in them, he is sure to lose. The people don't want a phony Democrat. If it's a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time; that is, they will take a Republican before they will a phony Democrat, and I don't want any phony Democratic candidates in this campaign."

---President Harry Truman
QED:2010[/font]


[font size=4]Leadership! "The Buck Stops HERE!" NO Excuses![/font]




You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #44)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 03:00 AM

65. Good post. People need to pay attention.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #44)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 05:10 PM

115. And what keeps them at home is bashing their President.

Obama is not a "fake Democrat."

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Response to kentuck (Reply #7)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:54 PM

16. Why can't we do both?

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]I think it would be very effective to be "attacking the Republicans as lying scumbags" while at the same time expounding on our "more positive and visionary message."

Yes?

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Response to silverweb (Reply #16)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 04:12 PM

19. Yes.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #19)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 07:43 PM

47. ...



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Response to kentuck (Reply #7)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 02:59 AM

64. It's not the wrong strategy, it's just HARD TO FOLLOW. Speaking for myself.

 

We also need a message that is more unified. Our message is already visionary enough.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #7)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 11:44 AM

84. I don't know if the strategy has ever, for any Dem Policy...

 

under Obama, been to change RW minds.....necessarily.

You are absolutley correct, that mind changing from those on the right happens too rarely and in too few numbers to be reliable source for Obama votes. IMHO, the hammering helps to solidify or swing back the stance of those that have been almost convinced by the RIGHT regarding death panels and other such malarky.

The hammering of lies regarding health care, serves to put a black mark or at least a question mark on the all other talking points, if enough of those talking points are proven to be so obvious in their dishonesty. Encouraging a little questioning, a little research is all it takes. There are a lot of indie voters out there that, that truly don't have all the info and would be surprised at the lies perpetuation simply because the Right has been allowed to perpetuate and keep them alive. For them, the hammering would be very useful.

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #84)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:22 PM

101. You're right, that's what K. Rove et. al. do - plot and scheme how to float

 

lies and rumors and spin. We need to be somewhat less upstanding.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:20 PM

9. Nah

My views are my views. Just because someone has a D next to their name doesn't make them immune from criticism.

Politics is not a sporting event.

Rants like the one above do nothing to help move us forward or bring us together.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #9)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:26 PM

12. Nobody wants you to change your views. We are trying to figure out how each of us can USE our own

views more effectively, ultimately for you of course, in service to your own views and also in service to those views which you hold in common with others. It's called synergy. I prefer a more specific word: synchronicity.

Your views, my views, MOST people's views are losing to this zero-sum thinking. There are more than 2 things possible, so the probabilities CAN leverage one another.

My experience is that this approach results in more clarity and, hence, more strength in my own personal views, not less, because the challenges refine who and what I am and how/why my views ARE my views.

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Response to patrice (Reply #12)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 02:54 AM

62. Except the zero sum thinking is in the OP and projected at people who don't agree with him.

Maybe the guy should practice what he preaches before he takes it primetime.

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #62)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 03:02 AM

66. What is amazing is over and over the strategy causes lost opportunity

Yet leadership, like many here keep stubbornly clinging to it.

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Response to newthinking (Reply #66)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 03:45 AM

68. I don't know if this guy qualifies as leadership but I would like to submit this

to a potential DU Irony Forum.

For once, focus your bloodlust on Republicans

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:20 PM

11. K&R! This is so true. Treat a win as a win and stop the incessant kvetching

among ourselves.

United We Stand, Divided We Fall. Simple truth.

Corporate Media will continue to carry the GOP water. We should continue to carry President Obama and the Democrats'. After they're re-elected THEN we can go back to debating among ourselves.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:27 PM

13. Did John send a copy to Ben Nelson, too? How about Max Baucus?

They don't give a shit what John Cole says? Do tell!

I mean, I love a good pep-talk as much as anybody but turning a win into a win in a situation like this means that Democratic representatives are actually going to have to follow through for their constituents and not the monied corporate interests which spend billions to buy them off.

PB

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:29 PM

14. Keep pretending that we are making "incremental steps."

Keep pretending that things aren't getting worse instead of better, even under a Democratic administration. Keep pretending that the reason for this is not corporate infestation of our government across party lines.

Keep pretending that we are not sleepwalking into Third World nation status and a police state. Keep bleating that Republicans would be worse. Of course they would be worse. That is the game the one percent play to get you to accept what is absolutely unacceptable.

When two planes crashed into the WTC on 9/11, it was considered a national emergency. Three thousand people died, the nation was outraged, wars were started, and our entire nation was thrust into a new way of living, because of this national tragedy.

Compare the loss of 3000 to what is happening now. Over a million American students are homeless now. We have the second-highest child poverty rate of all the developed nations; only ROMANIA is worse. Forty percent of our wealth has been looted. People who were comfortably middle class 15 years ago are living in cars on the street. Meanwhile, the corporations are sucking in record profits.

Where is the commensurate alarm about THIS emergency? Where is the outrage? Where is the President standing up and pounding his fist on the podium and saying that it is absolutely unacceptable, in a country with the wealth that America has, for ANY person to have to worry about food or shelter? Where are the vigils and the speeches and the national days of alarm and attention to this? Why do we not get a response AT LEAST as URGENT and VEHEMENT as the response to 9/11?

Why?

No, we get corporate platitudes about the need for "shared sacrifice," austerity, and budget cutting, and admonitions to be patient and not be such a "purist." We get more drone wars. We get our Secretary of Defense admonishing us about how we can't cut military spending. We get a President *starting out* debt ceiling negotiations by offering up social spending and giving speeches advocating austerity. We get billions of dollars in new police state infrastructure and surveillance centers. We don't get any sense of alarm about *what is happening to Americans.*

This is a bigger emergency than 9/11. Where is the outrage?

Spare us the talk about "purity." Wake up and look at what the REAL emergency is. We have a serious, serious problem, and it is not only in the Republican Party.

Occupy.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #14)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 04:08 PM

17. +100000! n/t

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #14)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 04:44 PM

26. Thanks for the demonstration.

Pun intended.

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Response to boppers (Reply #26)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 05:17 PM

30. It's all you have. nt

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #30)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 07:57 PM

48. If I could build a giant puppet, and join a drumming circle, I'm sure I could make more change.

Maybe if I threw up some tents and tarps in a park, it could totally change the modern political climate!



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Response to boppers (Reply #48)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 04:25 PM

112. I don't think anyone is asking you to do that.

 

Just acknowledge reality.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #14)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 11:20 PM

51. Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!

 

HELL YEAH!

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 02:06 AM

61. Invisible rec for this post.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 07:17 AM

73. +1,000,000 (n/t)

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 10:08 AM

75. ..he said, proving the point of the OP...

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Response to dionysus (Reply #75)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 11:49 AM

85. It would almost be funny in it's confirmation of the OP

 

If not for the results of "shitting in their own bed."

The idea of unity seems to completely bypass so many, in the rush for purity and "personal" agendas.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:16 AM

131. +100000000 nt

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 04:11 PM

18. I'm pure!

I'm a PURE Democrat and have been since the middle of Reagan's second term. Then Poppa Bush's failed policies turned me off for good. Bill Clinton was my first hero and still is. I have another Hero now and that's Obama and nothing will ever change that. I've never criticized him OR the DLC...and never will. He did what he HAD TO DO to get elected and then reelected! Thank God! If it wasn't for the DLC we'd have had Bob Dole for president or maybe Perot or another Bush Sr. term. How horrible...Would that have been better than the DLC?

I agree... STFU and go with the program and stop acting like a typical Democrat and more like a Republican. Time for that after the election! However, I personally don't ever see a time for it. I consider myself a 100% Obama Democrat. Yeah Obama and the ACA.

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Response to Auntie Bush (Reply #18)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 06:13 PM

38. The DLC is why the 1996 election was one of the lowest turnouts ever

 

People looked at Clinton and Dole and didn't like either one of them. They each had the same position on every issue. Same goes for the 2000 election.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #38)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:56 AM

60. "All of these kids are from planned pregnancies!"

hahaha

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 04:13 PM

20. This is some rant!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 04:23 PM

21. Good rant.

I'll focus.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 04:35 PM

22. We can't do it

Progressives and/or Liberals just don't have that laser like focus.
You could say that it's the result of having a big tent approach, or the result of not having a status quo mentality where we can band around being against change, or it could be because we don't live in fear like the R's do.

But, either way, it's harder to get a unified message out.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 04:38 PM

24. no thanks.

ive found you can do both at the same time pretty easily

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 04:46 PM

27. I prefer to target conservatives

Party isnt an issue when you do that.

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Response to DJ13 (Reply #27)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 07:33 PM

46. exactly.

people really need to get past this whole D versus R fight..
its not about the partys anymore..

its about ideology.

because we choose to be a big tent party, we cant just go by the letter by someones name.

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Response to iamthebandfanman (Reply #46)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 11:28 PM

52. Identity politics is for neophytes.

 

Which happen to be most of the population.

Those who understand ideology are a small group and are often shouted over by the elites in their own party who proselytize the neophytes to maintain the status quo.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 05:01 PM

28. Politics before good government? That's the republican way.

 

I'm a supporter of Obamacare, but I don't agree with your reasons for objecting to those who do not support it. Our biggest problem is that politics is currently all about our side vs theirs and not about what's best for the country.

(Granted, since republicans are almost always wrong about everything you have a good chance of being correct about most things by playing this game. But that doesn't necessarily make it right.)

This health care law was a monumental moment in US history, and you minimize its importance by turning it into just another mark in the political win column.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 05:11 PM

29. Excellent read, and damned excellent advice. Thanks for posting.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 05:20 PM

31. What did we "WIN" ?

In concrete terms.
What have I "won"?

Mandating that every American buy Health Insurance from For Profit Corporations?
A WIN?
I don't see it.

Giving the 1% another nice, big, mandated cut of our tax payer money, right off the top for doing absolutely NOTHING?
A WIN?
..maybe for the Health Insurance Cartel.

Do you know that the Supreme Court struck down the part of the law that mandates the states expand their Medicaid Programs to include everybody below 133% of the poverty line?
This WAS the most expensive piece of the ACA,
and is now "optional" for the states?
This is not a "WIN".

Striking down the President's justification for a Mandate to Buy Insurance under the
Commerce Clause is frightening.
The Commerce Clause IS the constitutional foundation for almost every piece of Democratic Social Legislation since the New Deal, especially those regulating the behavior of Corporations.
Instead, Roberts switched the justification to the government's Power to Tax.

Justice Ginsberg characterized Robert's decision to ditch the Commerce Clause and substitute the Power to Tax as "stunningly retrogressive."
Beware the Trojan Horse buried in Robert's decision.

Everyone keeps shouting and High Fiving saying "This is a step toward Single Payer",
but I must be too stupid or too old to understand exactly HOW we move from,
Every American MUST buy Health Insurance from For Profit Corporations,

TO

Publicly Owned Government Administered National Health Insurance
(the vision of FDR, LBJ, and all traditional Democrats)

This looks for ALL the World to me to be a BIG step toward the Privatization of Health Care
(A traditional Republican Vision),
not a step toward Medicare for ALL.

So, please explain it to me in simple terms.
WHAT have I "WON"?

Specifically WHAT is our next step?
What is the foundation in the ACA for moving on to a National, Non-Profit, Single Payer System?
Social Security and Medicare contained a solid foundation that was easy to expand,
but I can't find anything in the ACA that can be built upon.
What was established in the ACA that we can expand and improve?
"The Exchange"?
..a REAL For Profit Insurance Cartel with 40 - 70 MILLION forced customers?

Perhaps I am a stodgy old FDR/LBJ Working Class purist.
If so, then so be it.
I'll wear that label proudly.
I've been a Democrat for a long time (46 years),
and have no ambition to celebrate Conservative Republican policy.
I don't think FDR or LBJ would approve of this "victory".
Please excuse me from the Victory Parade based on my traditional Democratic Party Values.







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Response to bvar22 (Reply #31)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 05:33 PM

34. This thread was directed at you... and you still dont get it

 

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #34)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 06:19 PM

40. A WHOLE Thread?

Directed at this old mainstream center loyal FDR/LBJ Working Class Democrat of 46 years.
Really?
Directed at little ole ME?

Please rebut any of the points in my previous post.
I would really like to see this "Victory" you are celebrating.


I'm too young to remember Social Security, but my Working Class Mom & Dad were there, and told me all about it and HOW important it was. THAT established a Publicly Owned, Government Administered program that protected a bunch of Working Class Americans.

I remember Medicare.
Now THAT established a real Government Administered, Publicly Owned program that was easy to expand.

I must not be as smart as you,
so make it simple for me to understand.
What has this old Working Class DEMOCRAT won
that goes beyond a mandate to pay a tithe to a For Profit Corporation
with the IRS as the Hammer to make sure I pay my tithe?







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Response to bvar22 (Reply #40)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:53 AM

58. If you're on medicare (if voting dem 46 years, sounds like you are), no more "donut hole"

Plus all your checkups and preventive screenings (e.g. colonoscopies, etc.) no longer have co-pays.

But more important, come 2014, 33 million of your fellow Americans will have insurance and the 45,000 a year that are now dying for lack of health insurance will live. I count my brother in that statistic.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #58)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 12:51 PM

95. So in order to ....

... make some minor adjustments to an already established program,
we were forced to accept the MANDATE for every American to BUY Health Insurance of questionable value from For Profit Corporations?

WOW.
What a DEAL!!!!

I don't deny that the ACA contains some elements that WILL help some people.
That is HOW a good hustle works.
When I weigh what we have gained against what we have lost,
it scares me.
It looks like Jack sold the cow for a handful of beans,
but the beans a good, and they might be MAGIC!!!

All "VICTORIES" have a cost.
Are you willing to honestly evaluate and discuss WHAT we have lost?
I have weighed the two,
and realistically, this "VICTORY" cost way too much.

I walked through a large Casino last year.
The place was filled, wall to wall, with people playing Video Poker Machines.
They sat there pumping in money continuously,
and every few minutes, someone shouted out, "I WON!!!!".
Do YOU know what the reality is about those machines?
In front of every one sits a sucker who is losing MORE than they WIN,



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #95)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 02:02 PM

107. The tax penalty runs around $90/year & no enforcement mechanism besides deduction from tax refunds.

Weigh that against saving the lives of 45,000 Americans per year and getting 33 million insured (what you describe as "minor adjustments" and I'd say it is a huge win.

Geez, you sound like my Fox News hypnotized wingnut in-laws.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #107)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 04:54 PM

113. My criticisms are FAR from anything YOU will find on Fox news, and you know it.

Last edited Mon Jul 2, 2012, 05:46 PM - Edit history (1)

When you forced to resort to cheap Ad Hominems,
it is an admission of defeat.
I accept your surrender.

I challenged YOU to discuss what we have lost in this great "Victory",
and you were either unable to grasp the concept,
or unwilling to face the truth.

My criticisms of the ACA are based on the Traditional Democratic Values of
the Democratic Party championed by FDR & LBJ.
There it is.



It is a classic American fantasy story,
but today we get to see it played over and over again in the Kabuki Theater of
"Centrist" Democrats vs Republicans.

The villain comes in and ties Poor Nell (the hostage) to the tracks.
The Villain (the Republicans) come in, twisting their mustache,
and say, "Give me the keys to the ranch,
or I'll let Poor Nell die."

The Democrats, in hand wringing pretend agony, surrender the keys to The Villain,
and joyously celebrate in front of the TV cameras (while winking at their Big Corporate contributors offstage) because,
"YAY. We "saved" Poor Nell,"
(but we gave away the ranch).

This has played out time and time again over the last 3-1/2 years,
as the "Democrats" leap in to save some group or the other
by giving away the Ranch,
and then with feigned outrage accuse their policy critics of wanting to see Poor Nell die.

The way the story is SUPPOSED to play out,
is the Hero rushes in, defeats the Villain,
and saves Nell and the Ranch,
but, somehow, out "Centrist", Free Trading, Privatizing, Party Leadership can NEVER seem to find their horse (or comfortable shoes)
when the time to FIGHT comes.
Go Figure.

I AM a loyal, Mainstream-Center, Working Class FDR/LBJ Democrat
who isn't afraid to FIGHT the Villain instead of handing over the keys to the Ranch.





[font color=firebrick size=3][center]"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."

--- Paul Wellstone[/font]
[/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center]
[/font]

[font size=5 color=firebrick]Solidarity![/font]





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Response to bvar22 (Reply #113)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 05:33 PM

117. I didn't say you were a wing-nut, just that you [your post] sounded like it.

Your rant about the ACA being this horrible thing is exactly what they say on Fox. And for good reason. They want to bash a major accomplishment of the Democratic President to depress Democratic turnout. And you are doing exactly what they want you to do, even if it is for different reasons. Whatever your reasons, they are serving Republican purposes.

And you ignore the facts about the ACA I cite--you just respond with generalizations and claim I am resorting to "ad hominem" attacks. This isn't about you. I don't even you know, you're anonymous.

This is about the 33 million Americans who will be covered thanks to the ACA; 45,000 of whom will not be sent to their grave each year for lack of healthcare while the purists wrangle. People like my brother, whose life will be saved by the ACA. He, unlike you, is way too you for medicare. This debate has very real consequences for him and me.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #117)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 06:11 PM

118. Bogus Nonsense to discourage honest discussion and honest evaluation of Party Policy.

Honest Discussion of Policy is going to kill Team Spirit?
I have found that open, honest discussion BUILDS Team Spirit.
An HONEST evaluation of losses and victories,
and an honest and open discussion of the fights we still have before us keeps it real.
Everybody KNOWS when the Pep Rally is a thin veneer based on wishful thinking.

This IS a Discussion Board,
and if honest and open discussion of Democratic Party Policy
"discourages turnout",
then there is something WAY more WRONG with our Party than my posts on an internet discussion board.

I see you have STILL not been able to summon the courage to respond to my challenges:

1)Specifically WHERE in the ACA is this foundation that we can build upon to move us closer to Publicly Owned Government Administered Non-Profit National Health Insurance.
Medicare and Social Security established the foundations of Publicly Owned Government Administered Programs that were easy to build upon, and became the cornerstones of the modern Democratic Party.
How is Mandating that everyone BUY Health Insurance from For Profit Corporations a "step" in that direction?
This IS a step toward the Privatization of Health Care in America.


2) I never claimed that the ACA won't "save" anybody,
only that the cost of saving the hostages by surrendering to the terrorists is too high.
Do you have the courage to honestly examine WHAT has been given away to the For Profit Health Insurance Cartel to save the hostages?
It is NEVER as Black vs White as you have painted the situation.
It was NEVER surrender to the Republicans OR the hostages die.
There were and are other avenues that would have had better outcomes for the American People.

There were and are Democratic Party Ways we could have saved the hostages AND taken a step in the right direction.
SEE: FDR & LBJ

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #118)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 06:22 PM

119. Comparing the ACA to terrorism is not an "honest discussion." nt

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #119)

Tue Jul 3, 2012, 03:02 PM

122. I see you still "got nothin".

I didn't compare the ACA to "terrorism".
I called the Tea party republicans "Terrorists",
and I stand by that assessment.
What I object to is "Compromising" with "Terrorists".
If you go back and actually READ my post you will see that.

I OPPOSE the "Centrist" New Democrat DLC "Triangulation" strategy of surrendering Major Issues to the "Terrorists" in order to obtain minor political "Victories" for small groups that, in reality, move the country further to the Conservative Right.

I stand by my post.


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Response to bvar22 (Reply #122)

Tue Jul 3, 2012, 07:27 PM

123. Saving 45,000 Americans from death each year is not a "minor political victory for a small group."

I can't believe you stand by "the cost of saving the hostages by surrendering to the terrorists is too high." I guess it is easy for you to bash the ACA as some sort of hostage negotiation with terrorists when you're safely on medicare, but my brother's life will be saved by the ACA, as will 45,000 Americans every year. And 33 million uninsured Americans will now be covered. You ignore all this and just blindly say "you got nothin."

The corporations already controlled healthcare for those of us not on government-paid care. At least now we some protections regarding how they treat us, like they can't dump us if we get sick and they can't refuse to insure us if we have pre-existing conditions. And the ACA sets up a framework for states to implement single payer, like Vermont is doing. This is not a surrender by any definition, nor does it move the country "further to the Conservative Right."

I really don't get why you are so angry about the ACA. But if 45,000 Americans being saved from the grave each year is too "small" a group to impress you, then I guess we have nothing further to discuss.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #123)

Tue Jul 3, 2012, 09:53 PM

124. More Distortions, misdirection, and outright false claims.

You said:
[font color=red]"Saving 45,000 Americans from death each year"[/font].
From which bodily orifice DID you pull that number?
On WHAT do you base your claim that the ACA will save that many Americans every year?

Most estimates agree that around 45,000 Americans DO die every year due to lack of Health CARE,
NOT due to a lack of Insurance.
Health Insurance does NOT equal Health Care,
especially "Bronze" Insurance.

Even after ALL the provisions of the ACA are enacted,
most estimates project form 15 million to 30 Million Americans WILL remain without Health Insurance. The ACA is NOT Universal health care.
It is not even Universal Insurance.

I don't deny that the ACA will save some lives.
IMO, the "historic regulations" in the ACA will be as effective as the "historic regulations" for the Wall Street Banks, so we will have to wait and see how many "lives" are saved,
but we won't have to wait to know what we have given away.
"They" got THAT in concrete legislation.

I have been very clear about that in several posts above^
which you seem not to have read or comprehended.
I though I explained it in terms you could understand with the Snidely Whiplash analogy,
but apparently not.

The 1% WILL gladly agree to save some lives,
IF we give them "the keys to the ranch".
THAT is exactly what the MANDATE is.







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Response to bvar22 (Reply #124)

Tue Jul 3, 2012, 11:18 PM

125. "Bodily orifice"? No, I pulled it off Google.

In fact, the Philadelphia Enquirer says the ACA, even as modified by the SCOTUS, will save "millions of Americans from dying before their time."

http://articles.philly.com/2012-06-29/news/32473280_1_insurance-mandate-health-insurance-health-care-law

But let's say it's only a tenth of what I suggest, given that not everyone will be covered. Let's say only 4,500 lives a year are saved. That's still more than we lost on 9/11. Every year. And let's say it's not 33 million but less than half that, or 15 million uninsured that will have health insurance. Even under the most crabbed view of the ACA, it is not a "minor political victory for a small group" as your post suggests. It's not the single payer I wanted, but in the memorable words of Joe Biden, it's a big fucking deal.

And here's how the ACA will help YOU (it involves clicking a few boxes that apply to your situation):
http://www.barackobama.com/health-care?source=socnet_20120703_BO_FB_HEALTH_CARE_TOOL2_SIGNON&utm_medium=fb&utm_source=bo_fb&utm_campaign=socnet_20120703_BO_FB_HEALTH_CARE_TOOL2_SIGNON

I just got that link on a DU post this evening: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=898872

It turns out the ACA was WAY better than I thought. As I mentioned, my brother, who is much too young for medicare, has never had health insurance his entire adult life. He has a pre-existing condition that lands him in the emergency room a few times a year. Eventually, if he continues to ignore it, it will kill him...years before he reaches 65 and is eligible for medicare.

But that AWESOME link elleng provided just told me that because he makes just under $15,000 a year, he will be eligible for medicaid. Up to now, the state of CA has denied him medicaid because his pathetic low wage job is too much money to qualify for the current criteria for medicaid, particularly for a single male. In fact, they basically told him an able-bodied working male without dependants can't get medicaid. The ACA completely turns that around.

I was worried how he was going to pay for the insurance in 2014, even if at a subsidized premium, since he makes barely enough to feed himself and pay rent.

So it turns out that, even though I did not get single payer, my brother (who REALLY needed it) did. I am sooooo happy. Your insults and negativity can't put a dent in it.

Have a great 4th!



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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #125)

Thu Jul 5, 2012, 04:51 PM

127. Oh well, if you found it on Google, it MUST be true.

Unquestioningly repeating those bogus talking points is exactly what I meant by parroting "Marketing Brochures".

Try THIS instead before repeating everything you "find" on the Internet.
It is called "Critical Thinking".
[div class= "excerpt"]

*If 40,000 - 45,000 Americans die every year from lack of Health Care,
do you really expect the ACA to save every single one of them?

*How many of those dead 45,000 already had Health Insurance,
but couldn't afford the deductible and co-pay to use it?

*Since 20 Million - 30Million Americans will STILL remain "uncovered" after all the provisions of the ACA are enacted, how many of these Americans will die?

*Is there a difference between Health Insurance (ACA) and actual Health Care,
and HOW effective will "Bronze" Health Insurance be at actually saving lives?

SEE?
With a little reflection, it is easy to recognize bogus Marketing Brochure information you "find" on the Internet,
and will be helpful in avoiding making embarrassing, unsupportable claims in the future.


Here again are the challenges I posted up thread which you have failed to address:


*All "victories" cost something.
Are you able to honestly discuss what we have lost in this "Victory".

* Specifically WHERE in the ACA is this foundation that we can build upon to move us closer to Publicly Owned Government Administered Non-Profit National Health Insurance.
Medicare and Social Security established the foundations of Publicly Owned Government Administered Programs that were easy to build upon, and became the cornerstones of the modern Democratic Party.
How is Mandating that everyone BUY Health Insurance from For Profit Corporations a "step" in that direction?


..and a belated Happy 4th to you too!





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Response to bvar22 (Reply #31)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 06:18 PM

39. In concrete terms. What have I "won"?

 

The opportunity to tell the Republicans they're losers.



For a change....

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #31)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:27 AM

56. THIS:



and SO MANY others.

Everybody MUST see that ad.

And if it doesn't MOVE you, I don't know what will.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #31)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 03:24 AM

67. Hey there fellow dem.

I've been waging my own debate Upthread, hadn't gotten around to seeing how the rest of this thread was playing out. This post of yours caught my eye though. The whole time I was reading it I couldn't but help reflect on how the corporatists slowly took over the GOP. Todays republicans are not even remotely close in ideology to what was considered moderate conservativeism of the Eisenhower era.

Their party was taken over, and ours is being taken over by the same corporate intrests. My hat is off to you because you are NOT gonna sell out on your principles. The suckers on the right...well they sold out, hopefully many of them will figure that out at some point but that's not why I wanted to speak with you.

I heard something on the radio, (progressive radio AM 1090) and now I dearly wish I could tell you WHO I heard it from but this may be a source of encouragement for you regarding The Affordable Healthcare Act. Apparently, there is a little discussed addition to the act put in there by Sen. Bernie Sanders. If memory serves, in 2016, the addition grants the states an ability to improve on the new health care law. In Vermont, Sen. Sanders has already gotten state approval to improve on the Affordable Healthcare Act changing it over to a full single payer system In 2016. Currently, Sen. Sanders is lobbying to get things moved up to 2014 for his state.

The radio discussion went on to say that Vermont will not be the only state to do this by 2016. They talked about how once the American Public got to see the success of those single payer states they would force their own states to do the same. The discussion went on about how Canada had to go through something similar, that their health care system wasn't at first accepted by all provinces but needed time to evolve.

I dearly wish I could provide a link for you bvar22, perhaps you could find out more over at Senator Sanders's website. Fwiw Thom Hartman and Sen. Sanders feel that this Affordable Healthcare Act is a step in the right direction. I would follow either of these guys off a cliff if that is where they thought it wise to lead me. That said, after reading this very post of yours that I am responding to, I am damn proud to have you on our side.
I only posted that bit that I heard on the radio, not to be yet another voice of disagreement, but to perhaps give you a small measure of hope.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #31)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 04:57 AM

70. So, you're a big fan of FDR???

As a self-described "FDR purist", then you're probably pretty darn happy that FDR launched Social Security? That was a big accomplishment.

But did you know that SS originally covered ONLY HALF of the American workforce? HALF. And that many of the excluded were Black?

http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v70n4/v70n4p49.html

HOW will the ACA be improved, you ask? Maybe the same way that SS was improved... gradually, with amendments.

It won't be fixed with teeth gnashing, due to a lack of historical perspective.

Obama just accomplished something that LBJ and FDR couldn't!!!

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #31)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 05:09 AM

71. In case you missed it, further down the thread,

Social Security excluded HALF of the American workforce when it was launched.

I assume the purists were outraged about that too. "How will that ever be fixed?"
http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v70n4/v70n4p49.html

You just have to read the first sentence there!!! ^^^

It's just not possible to launch a massive program like health care reform, without making compromises in the beginning. I don't believe it's ever happened, and would be interested in hearing otherwise.

What Obama did is huge... to get us started on a national program... something that LBJ and FDR couldn't achieve.

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Response to PBass (Reply #71)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 12:50 PM

94. Social Security and Medicare established a firm FOUNDATION.

Social Security established Publicly Owned Government Administers programs.
It was easy to gradually expand, improve, and build upon this existing foundation.

WHAT is the FOUNDATION in the ACA upon which we can build?
There is none.
The only new precedent is a LAW that establishes a Mandate to BUY Health Insurance from For Profit Health Insurance Corporations with the IRS as the Enforcement Arm of the For Profit Insurance Cartel.

PLEASE show me the foundation in the ACA which we can build upon.
Where do we put the next brick?
What is the next step?

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 05:23 PM

32. DU rec...nt

Sid

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 05:30 PM

33. We need to be able to develop the skill to respond to statements with which

we disagree not with emotional outbursts but with persuasive arguments.

Thanks you for patiently listening to/reading and tolerating the opinions of others. That's how we learn from each other.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 05:46 PM

35. Well, there he goes again

Somebody who was a Republican, even a "wingnut" as recently as 2006 or 2007 is happy with Obama.

And that means I can too.

Nah, what it says to me is that Democrats just passed something that makes conservatives happy, and now those happy conservatives are demanding that liberals join in the celebration, because WE won!!

Here's a clue.

A win for conservadems is not a win for everybody. Not by a long shot. It's more like a win for the Republification of the Democratic Party.

Let's celebrate!!!

Later, I am sure we will be asked to celebrate another win for Obama, like another extension of the Bush tax cuts for everybody making less than $1,000,000.

Let me raise a toast for this celebration.

"To the total victory of the rich."


Sorry, but I am not gonna drink to that, no matter how many "former" wingnuts call on me to celebrate such a "win".

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #35)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 06:25 PM

41. That is how it looks on MY radar.

I just can't see what I have WON
beyond the mandate to pay a tithe to a For Profit Corporation
for "Bronze" (junk) insurance.

I've politely asked those marching in the Victory Parade to show me what I have "WON",
but all I get are snarky one line replies.


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Response to hfojvt (Reply #35)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 07:06 PM

45. +1

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #35)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 04:45 AM

69. As a liberal, I am very happy. I like progress, and I like doers, not talkers.

First of all, John Cole (Balloon-Juice) stopped defending Bush around 2003 (you said 2006 or 2007).

Second of all, thanks to the ACA, 16 million new people of all ages will soon qualify for Medicaid. 80% of insurance company profits must be spent on patient care. No more "preexisting conditions". No more caps on insurance company spending. I could go on. The 'pros' are absolutely awesome. If you can't be happy for that, then you are probably a pretty miserable person in general.

Regarding the cons, in some of the "complainer" posts, it would be good to see people express their big problems with Obamacare, in a succinct way. Start being more specific if you want a dialogue, otherwise why are you here? Big frowny posts aren't very persuasive.

You can't afford health insurance? Then you'll get financial aid to pay for it.

If you CAN afford health insurance (and choose not to pay) then you have to start paying for it. You can pay the IRS penalty instead, but you'd still be paying into the system (and not getting the benefits). You have pay for your coverage just like everybody else does.

"To the total victory of the rich."


Huh, rich people aren't Democrats? (confused) Maybe you should check out ViolentOverthrow.com, DU is a website for Democrats. We're not interested in completely destroying capitalism, just in making it fair for as many people as possible. Sorry if that makes you sad

By the way, Balloon-Juice.com is a GREAT blog. A former conservative is able to explain their BS maybe better than anybody.

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Response to PBass (Reply #69)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 10:44 AM

78. No, Cole was a big Iraq war booster..

Here is his 2008 mea culpa on that..

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2008/03/21/my-iraq-war-retrospective/

I see that Andrew Sullivan was asked to list what he got wrong about Iraq for the five year anniversary of the invasion, and since I was as big a war booster as anyone, I thought I would list what I got wrong:
Everything.
And I don’t say that to provide people with an easy way to beat up on me, but I do sort of have to face facts. I was wrong about everything.
I was wrong about the Doctrine of Pre-emptive warfare.
I was wrong about Iraq possessing WMD.
I was wrong about Scott Ritter and the inspections.
I was wrong about the UN involvement in weapons inspections.
I was wrong about the containment sanctions.
I was wrong about the broader impact of the war on the Middle East.
I was wrong about this making us more safe.
I was wrong about the number of troops needed to stabilize Iraq.
I was wrong when I stated this administration had a clear plan for the aftermath.
I was wrong about securing the ammunition dumps.
I was wrong about the ease of bringing democracy to the Middle East.
I was wrong about dissolving the Iraqi army.
I was wrong about the looting being unimportant.
I was wrong that Bush/Cheney were competent.
I was wrong that we would be greeted as liberators.
I was wrong to make fun of the anti-war protestors.
I was wrong not to trust the dirty smelly hippies.


Cole's "Road to Damascus" moment was during the Terry Shiavo brouhaha which puts it more like 2005..

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #78)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 11:51 AM

86. In the OP, he said 2006 or 2007 himself

But did he give a mea culpa on the Bush tax cuts? Or did he only change his party affiliation based on social issues like Schiavo?

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #86)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:38 PM

102. Cole is nearly all the way to full metal jacket dirty fucking hippie..

He's been moving left in fits and starts for quite a while, it's really been a bit of an education watching his own blog drag him, sometimes kicking and screaming, to the left..

His most unfortunate tendency is that he has taken the trust he had in Republican leaders and bestowed it upon Democrats without sufficient salt..

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Response to PBass (Reply #69)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 11:35 AM

83. "rich people are not Democrats"

Sure like I said that.

And as for Balloon-Juice, I said 2006 or 2007 because Cole himself wrote this "Again, as a former wingnut and lifelong Republican until 2006 or 2007, I am fucking begging- treat a win like a win and use it to your advantage."

Now, as for rich people. I did not say anything about destroying capitalism. What I am talking about is Democracy, where our government is a government "of the people, by the people and for the people." Except when conservative policies win, whether they are promoted and passed by Republicans or DLC Democrats our government becomes a government of the rich, by the rich and FOR the rich. That is, policies, conservative policies from conservative Democrats, primarily benefit NOT the bottom 50% of Americans, but rather the top 20% of Americans.

And yet, a supposed "former" conservative, who is probably part of the top 20%, looks at a policy coming from the Democratic Party that benefits the rich (the top 20% that he himself belongs to) and calls that a win.

I call that a loss. I call that a betrayal of the highest order.

The trouble with a former conservative, especially one who was a conservative so very recently, is that they still have conservative baggage that they don't realize is there. They have not changed their mind about everything. They are probably still "fiscal conservatives" just like many conservadems. So while they may be able to explain Republican BS, some of it, they still have swallowed and occasionally will regurgitate for your consumption, other conservative BS. Only they don't think of it as BS, because they still believe it. They still believe, probably, that the middle class makes $120,000 a year, for example.

Or your nonsense line that "you have to pay for your coverage like everybody else".

Nonsense, because everybody else does not pay for their coverage. SOME people have good jobs - ones where their employer provides health coverage, or one where their employer pays for most of their health coverage. Other people, such as say, myself, for almost two decades, are not fortunate enough to have such a good job. Well you don't make their life any better by forcing them to buy something.

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Response to PBass (Reply #69)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 05:03 PM

114. John Cole is at this point in his career a DLC water carrier

 

and an apologist for the public option killers (which includes most of the leadership of the Democratic Party).

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 06:27 PM

42. k&r

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 11:33 PM

53. This! nt

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 11:35 PM

54. May I ask a simple question?


Is it possible to get health care without having health insurance?? How would that be possible??

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:31 AM

57. Once a control freak, always a control freak. n/t

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:54 AM

59. K&R

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 07:01 AM

72. K&R!!!!!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 10:03 AM

74. Just remember; (opposed to forgetting)...

that "if" this ruling had went the "other way"' these Repuggish wing-nuts would still be doing cart-wheels all the way to Tampa thru to November, about -OBAMA- trying to ram down our throats something that was blatantly-UNCONSTITUTIONAL-and now that its been rule as such-- He Must Go.

So sad, that there are people in America that are so Un-American to want to deny We The People basic health care that's affordable for all is just mindless.

If they, like Rubio said, (http://www.indecisionforever.com/blog/tag/marco-rubio), that when Romney passed his version of Health Care Reform in Massachusetts, as Governor, didn't like it there, they could simply move to another state... well, I would surmise that anyone that don't like this ruling for ACA can now move to another Country that don't have this type of Universal Health Care Coverage. May I suggest Iran, or better yet, try Somalia. And as an added feature, for Somalia, No Gun-Control Laws.

Here then are some places where the government will let you die with your precious pre-existing condition in peace…(http://www.indecisionforever.com/blog/2012/06/29/5-countries-where-americans-can-seek-refuge-from-obamacare)

1.Somalia
Pro:No effective tax collection or government regulation. No universal health coverage.
Con:Real piracy way less fun than the intellectual property-stealing kind.

2. Central African Republic
Pro:No requirement that you pay to treat others' pre-existing conditions.
Con:Lack of clean drinking water is a universal pre-existing condition.

3. Turkmenistan
Pro: Strong family values! Male same-sex activity is punished by up to two years in prison, while lesbian activity is legal. No universal health coverage.
Con: January still named after the deceased Saparmurat Niyazov, former president of Turkmenistan and "The Leader of Turkmen"

4. Myanmar (Burma)
Pro: Strong military traditions. No universal health coverage.
Con: Recent events, including a visit by Hillary Clinton, have seen a weakening of the junta. They're getting soft in their old age.

5. Kyrgyzstan
Pros: No mandatory health insurance and a flat tax, just like Jesus and Rick Perry wanted.
Cons: Can't think of any. Sounds like mountainous, land-locked paradise.

So, for those who are really truely pissed-off about this, as the saying goes... Don't Go Away Mad-Just Go Away!?!? Good Riddance- in Advance- See'ya.


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Response to amerciti001 (Reply #74)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 11:16 AM

82. Will you be providing relocation to places like Canada and the United Kingdom as well?

those are also nations without our type of "Universal Care" (because we don't have one).

In fact, our system is "uniquely American" so a person could go ANYWHERE and get a very different system.

Hell, there are superior ways of implementing similar systems based on the ideas in this one.

You think we are now going to be leapfrogging up the list for countries that have established the right to affordable, quality health care for their citizens? We STILL haven't done that we still have no right, what we established is an obligation to paying a tithe to the insurance cartel.

How many first world nations would now switch places with us?

Seems we are heading to our own unique Somaliaization but our warlords where suits and ties and this law helps to funnel resources from both state and individual to increase the wealth differential and make us serfs and property of those economic strongmen rather than the military type.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 10:13 AM

76. Hmm, gee, then what was I doing in 2010? 2008? 2006? 2004? 2002? 2000?

 

I'm not sure, but I DO know what you can do John Cole: Go write your sanctimony down on a piece of paper, roll it up nice and tight, and go fuck yourself with it.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 10:22 AM

77. Dem leadership needs to take some cues

The test of success is not what you do when you are on top. Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.
George S. Patton

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 10:48 AM

79. "Quit shitting the bed!"

You know who you are...

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Response to Greybnk48 (Reply #79)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 10:59 AM

80. You do realize that Cole is talking about *both* sides, right?

I've been reading his blog since before he swapped sides, Firebagger and DLC are polar opposites and he put both in the title to his rant..

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #80)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 11:55 AM

87. No, I didn't know that.

But he implies the opposite when he says that he switched teams a few years ago and the one thing about Dems that frustrates him is that they don't "circle the wagons" like the repugs do. On that I agree.

OTOH, it takes a certain personality to maintain that sort of discipline, a personality I abhor BTW. So I guess I wish we were more cohesive, but the trade-off may not be worth it.

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Response to Greybnk48 (Reply #87)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:49 PM

104. Almost all Republicans are authoritarians these days..

Quite a few Democrats are also authoritarian but by no means all, that's where much of the internal conflict of the Democratic party comes from, one faction wants everyone to shut up and follow the leader and the other faction just doesn't have that particular mindset and probably never will.



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Response to Greybnk48 (Reply #79)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 12:27 PM

92. I hate

when that happens...


&feature=related

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 10:59 AM

81. Huge K&R!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 12:08 PM

88. Damn!

I can only recommend this post once. TY for this post and I really wish people would grow up. Progress is NEVER straight up, it is messy, interrupted and incremental. All or nothing thinking is for the small minded and much of what I have witnessed in the past days since SCOTUS, is whining doom sayers whose rhetoric we in Canada heard when we implemented our "socialistic health care" half a century ago. We don't go bankrupt from a terrible disease, we go bankrupt from a terrible employer who subverts labour laws. Kpete, help them evolve

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 12:17 PM

90. another example of someone unclear of what a DISCUSSION board is

and demanding that everyone just shut up and cheerlead.

To please these people, we could streamline DU and replace all forums with a one option poll: "Yay Democrats!" and if you don't feel like clicking it, don't do anything on the board until you feel like clicking it.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 12:20 PM

91. I don't think you're reading the polling

It isn't clear that the swing voters like ACA all that much. It isn't clear that hammering home on this topic, instead of focusing on jobs and the economy, will be what moves the swing voters. Quite the opposite, there is supposedly ACA fatigue amongst that group and they're tired of hearing about it and want to hear about jobs.

There will be new polling in a couple of weeks and maybe we'll see a shift, but as of now, the general topic is very unpopular and even the popular specifics (uninsured, pre-existing, etc.) have long ago passed their effectiveness with the target population (i.e. those who are undecided still about Obama). The Bain Capital stuff is vastly more popular.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 12:40 PM

93. your last paragraph applies far, far more to Dem elected officials and party functionaries than us


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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:18 PM

99. The author doesn't seem to have much experience (or knack!) for public speaking...

Nope. I'm not going to extol the virtues of mandatory, for-profit insurance. No matter how much you sputter and insult me.

For once in your god damned lives, put aside your fucking stupid beliefs about purity and how the public option was the bestest thing since sliced bread, accept the massive, game-changing victory you got today, and use it as a god damned bludgeon against the troglodytes whose health care plans are modeled after Ebeneezer Scrooge. For once, focus your bloodlust on Republicans instead of the DLC/Firebaggers/ANYONE WITHOUT AN (R) AFTER THEIR NAME. I’m begging you.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:20 PM

100. PS: LOL at ANOTHER "ex" Republican trying to boss us around and kill dissent!

Again, as a former wingnut and lifelong Republican until 2006 or 2007


An "ex" George W. Bush Republican wants to be in charge of the Democratic discourse. Again.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:47 PM

103. This ELECTION may be DECIDED on PUBLIC PERCEPTION of the ACA

Republicans, and Mitt Romney in particular, are promising to repeal it.

Therefore it is imperative for Democrats, and President Obama in particular, to vigorously DISPEL the LIES being promulgated by Republicans and the RW media to scare the American public into believing the Affordable Care Act is a threat rather than a moderate piece of legislation that expands coverage to the uninsured and protects people against the worst abuses of the Insurance industry (denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions and cancellation of polices when illness occurs).

Polls show public support for the specific provisions actually in the ACA, even if many of those same people say they are against the ACA itself. The strategy here shouldn't be boasting that WE WON and the GOP LOST, but to zero in on LIES and challenge the LIARS with Facts.

Bottom line is, the swing vote may hinge on how widely the lies are believed.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #103)

Thu Jul 5, 2012, 06:06 PM

129. Thank you.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 02:47 PM

109. A win that is not a win...

Who cares if this is a win or not? If there is one thing that I wish everyone would realize is that this is not a fucking game!! People's lives are affected by what will transpire between now and November.This thing might not even exist if the Repubs win. We have a long way to go before we should celebrate.
Besides, If we Bash Romney with this topic, all he has to say is " What's the big deal? I did it first!"

And he would be telling the truth.

for once...


Also, the GOP wins by getting out the vote. They do not get the vote out by celebrating their victories; they do it by creating fear amongst their base that they will lose. That's why the repub leadership never wants the issue of abortion to be resolved; its too big a goldmine for blind , faith-based votes. That is why the corporate-owned GOP leadership hates these state-level repubs who are actually making moves on abortion. That risks their near automatic high turnout. I predict that states with tougher abortion laws will have lower GOP turnout, because "Satan" has been defeated.

Anyways, this OP seems to be saying " hey , asshole! start talking about this "great victory" right now ! You liberal pansie !"

Good luck with that approach.

Besides, I think if we celebrate now, we will all be standing around holding our d&cks in november wondering how the hell we lost.

Plus, I voted for single-payer, not this right-wing compromise. I'm not going to stand beside Karl Rove and cheer along with him at this great " victory "

Let's just keep pushing until we get the best we can get....


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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 03:07 PM

110. For once, understand that it doesn't matter if it's the good cop or the bad cop that jails you.

 

Over the decades the republican party has gone completely insane as the religious right and assorted 'ists' took it over. One of the results of this has been millions of people with very republican beliefs have, rather than fighting to control their own party, come into the Democratic party dragging their prejudices and comfort with abusive authority with them. Now, we are in a fight for our party's soul against the same people and ideas that used to be the other side.

They were wrong and followed bad ideas when they were republicans, they're still wrong today and will be tomorrow, too.

But rather than stand up to this corrosive schizophrenia, we are told to get behind the very philosophy that has brought us down.

Well, fuck that. You're wrong. As always.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Jul 3, 2012, 11:21 PM

126. Well said!

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]K&R, thank you, and a big AMEN.



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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Jul 5, 2012, 05:59 PM

128. Good advice, but won't happen

 

In order for the "purists" to do such a thing requires them to admit that the majority of Democrats are moderate and do not fall in lock-step with their 'liberal/progressive' views, and that ain't gonna happen.

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