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Thu Mar 30, 2017, 11:26 PM

Presidential Line of Succession

Just so no one gets their hopes too high.

Current officer
1 Vice President Mike Pence (R)
2 Speaker of the House of Representatives Paul Ryan (R)
3 President pro tempore of the Senate Orrin Hatch (R)
4 Secretary of State Rex Tillerson (R)
5 Secretary of the Treasury Steven Mnuchin (R)

ETC.

49 replies, 5538 views

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Arrow 49 replies Author Time Post
Reply Presidential Line of Succession (Original post)
pnwmom Mar 2017 OP
erinlough Mar 2017 #1
pnwmom Mar 2017 #2
Buzz cook Mar 2017 #3
dchill Mar 2017 #4
roamer65 Mar 2017 #5
pnwmom Mar 2017 #19
Demsrule86 Mar 2017 #23
onenote Mar 2017 #38
MichMary Mar 2017 #31
Buzz cook Mar 2017 #49
KittyWampus Mar 2017 #6
NurseJackie Mar 2017 #25
PJMcK Mar 2017 #28
NurseJackie Mar 2017 #30
PJMcK Mar 2017 #36
NurseJackie Mar 2017 #41
csziggy Mar 2017 #43
pbmus Mar 2017 #7
Elwood P Dowd Mar 2017 #8
L. Coyote Mar 2017 #9
PJMcK Mar 2017 #37
defacto7 Mar 2017 #10
pnwmom Mar 2017 #12
defacto7 Mar 2017 #48
LibraLiz1973 Mar 2017 #11
sarah FAILIN Mar 2017 #34
Whiskeytide Mar 2017 #42
mzteaze Mar 2017 #13
ecstatic Mar 2017 #14
L. Coyote Mar 2017 #45
OliverQ Mar 2017 #15
pnwmom Mar 2017 #18
OliverQ Mar 2017 #47
Liberty Belle Mar 2017 #16
pnwmom Mar 2017 #17
Sancho Mar 2017 #20
pnwmom Mar 2017 #21
Sancho Mar 2017 #22
unblock Mar 2017 #29
Vinca Mar 2017 #24
SticksnStones Mar 2017 #26
ExciteBike66 Mar 2017 #27
Mc Mike Mar 2017 #32
Johnny2X2X Mar 2017 #33
NightWatcher Mar 2017 #35
Vinca Mar 2017 #40
lillypaddle Mar 2017 #39
Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2017 #44
JTFrog Mar 2017 #46

Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Mar 30, 2017, 11:29 PM

1. I'll take Orrin Hatch for 200 Alex.

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Response to erinlough (Reply #1)

Thu Mar 30, 2017, 11:30 PM

2. I hope at 83 his health is okay. nt

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Mar 30, 2017, 11:34 PM

3. Take back the house and senate

Get Al Gore elected to congress, elect him to the speakership. Impeach trump and Pence.

Reset to 2000.

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Response to Buzz cook (Reply #3)

Thu Mar 30, 2017, 11:36 PM

4. Where do we start?

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Response to Buzz cook (Reply #3)

Thu Mar 30, 2017, 11:50 PM

5. Oh yeah!

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Response to Buzz cook (Reply #3)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 02:20 AM

19. So we should wait to impeach him till January 2019, with a Democratic Congress.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #19)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 06:48 AM

23. No, he needs to go as soon it is obvious he colluded with the Russians.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #19)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:39 AM

38. not a question of waiting. not going to happen when there is a repub majority

In fact, even if we take the House and Senate in 2018, there's no scenario where we have enough votes to convict in the Senate without substantial repub support. And if there is substantial repub support, a deal whereby Trump resigns will get worked out and either Pence will stay on as President, or if Pence resigns, Ryan will become President.

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Response to Buzz cook (Reply #3)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:20 AM

31. Trump and Pence will not be simultaneously impeached.

Won't happen.

If Trump goes first, Pence becomes POTUS and appoints a new VP. If Pence goes first Trump appoints a new VP.

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Response to MichMary (Reply #31)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 11:19 PM

49. If you remember the appointment of Ford and Rockefeller

Was not instantaneous. Over a month in Ford's case between nomination and approval.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Mar 30, 2017, 11:53 PM

6. Irrelevant. There is ZERO possibility of Pence and Trump being removed simultaneously.

 

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #6)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:03 AM

25. Pence will choose Cruz for VP as a "booby-trap" or "dead-man-switch" to discourage ...

... others from impeaching and removing him from office.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #25)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:08 AM

28. Doesn't a nominated VP require Congressional approval? (n/t)

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #28)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:19 AM

30. I found this...

I'll bet there are other more comprehensive and authoritative sources online... but this was just a quickie Google search, and this popped up:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2001/03/how_is_a_new_vice_president_chosen.html

Before the 25th Amendment, a vacancy in the office was simply left unfilled. The impetus for the 25th was the assassination of John F. Kennedy--with Lyndon Johnson's ascension to the presidency, there was no vice president in place in case something befell Johnson. Then-Rep. Gerald Ford was appointed under the 25th following the resignation of Vice President Spiro Agnew in 1973. In 1974, after Richard Nixon resigned, Ford became president and selected Nelson Rockefeller as vice president. After a long congressional inquiry, Rockefeller was approved, making them the country's first nonelected president and vice president.


It's incomplete info because it doesn't specifically indicate that Ford needed congressional approval, but we can infer that he likely did have congressional approval because his own choice of Rockefeller needed congressional approval.

This snippet really isn't enough for the foundation of a detailed discussion, but it's enough for me to know what's likely to happen after Trump's impeachment or resignation. I hope it was interesting to you too.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #30)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:37 AM

36. The 25th Amendment

Thanks for your follow-up NurseJackie. I needed another cup of coffee to do my own research so I appreciate your help!

When FDR died and Harry Truman became president, he did not have a VP for the balance of FDR's 4th term. There wasn't a Constitutional process to replace the VP. When Mr. Truman ran for election in 1948, Alben W. Barkley was his running mate and became VP when President Truman scored his famous upset election.

The next time in our nation's history that we had a vacancy was when JFK was assassinated in November 1963, (I'll never forget those horrible four days). As there was still no mechanism for replacing the VP, and there was less than a year until the next national elections, LBJ had no VP as he finished JFK's term. When he won election in 1974, Hubert H. Humphrey was his VP. Then the 25th Amendment was adopted on February 10, 1967. The Wikipedia article is informative:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

To our specific conversation, Section 2 of the 25th Amendment addresses a Vice Presidential vacancy. From Wikipedia:

Under Section 2, whenever there is a vacancy in the office of Vice President, the President nominates a successor who becomes Vice President if confirmed by a majority vote of both Houses of the Congress.


Currently, the 25th Amendment is being discussed as Section 4 of the Amendment outlines the process for removing the President for various reasons.

In any event, now I need a third cup of coffee! Enjoy your weekend!

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #36)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:50 AM

41. Thanks for the info.

(I'll never forget either.)

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #30)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 08:23 AM

43. Gerald Ford did have to get congressional approval

An Unexpected Presidency

The unusual chain of events that lifted Ford to the Oval Office began in 1972 when operatives connected to President Richard Nixon’s (1913-1994) re-election campaign broke into the Democratic National Committee headquarters at the Watergate Hotel in Washington, D.C. A number of high-ranking Nixon administration officials knew about the break-in, and the president himself took part in efforts to cover up the illegal activities that became known as the Watergate scandal.

As the scandal came to light, Vice President Spiro T. Agnew (1918-1996) resigned from office in October 1973 over unrelated charges of accepting bribes and evading taxes. Nixon used his power under the 25th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution to appoint Ford as his new vice president. The well-liked and respected Ford was easily confirmed by Congress and took office on December 6, 1973.
http://www.history.com/topics/us-presidents/gerald-r-ford

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Mar 30, 2017, 11:57 PM

7. Not if all of them are complicit...

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 12:00 AM

8. Never thought I would ever say Orrin Hatch was the most sane

of any bunch of Washington repukes.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 12:01 AM

9. How to select the next VP should be included in that discussion.

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Response to L. Coyote (Reply #9)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:37 AM

37. It's in the 25th Amendment (n/t)

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 12:06 AM

10. That succession list

is only if all of the previous in line die at the same time. Even being legally removed doesn't work because it can't happen at the same moment.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #10)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 12:15 AM

12. They might not give either DT or Pence time to appoint a new VP.

Nobody knows what could happen, but I could imagine them and Paul Ryan all being charged at the same time. (DT as an unindicted co-conspirator).

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #12)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 02:44 PM

48. "Nobody knows what could happen"

You sure have that right. I feel like I'm fishing for an angle most of the time just so I have something to hold on to.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 12:11 AM

11. I still say when Trump goes

He's taking Pence and Ryan with him.

Remember- there's NO ONE on earth who is more petty than Donald Trump.
He won't go with a whimper.
He'll tear this mother down.

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Response to LibraLiz1973 (Reply #11)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:29 AM

34. Truer words have not been spoken

He is a childish and petty man. The whole house of cards will come down.

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Response to LibraLiz1973 (Reply #11)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:57 AM

42. I suspect deals will be struck.

The succession will be staged, and pardons will follow.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 12:21 AM

13. Well...

This makes me wonder, why the Dump gone, will his cabinet picks like Tillerson actually stay?

Under a "real" president, I don't see Tillerson, Mnuchin, Carson and that loony lady over at Education sticking around even with Pence.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 12:21 AM

14. If tRumP was elected through collusion with Russia, that should completely

void the election. I know our constitution doesn't specifically address this scenario, but any other result will mark the end of this democracy. The people would not stand for Pence & Ryan benefiting and using Trump's treason as a launch pad to set the country back decades.

I can deal with being set back 50 years if they win fair and square, but I will not see the erosion of my rights, my neighbors rights, and the environment due to laws passed by an illegally installed regime.

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Response to ecstatic (Reply #14)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 09:27 AM

45. If the gravity justifies it, election nullification will happen.

Remember how accepting the USA was of the Supreme court appointing Bush in effect. This will be easier once the evidence comes out.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 12:24 AM

15. General Mattis would be 5th in line

 

Defense Sec comes after State in line of succession.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #18)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 10:15 AM

47. Interesting, thought Mattis was next

 

Weird that Treasury is before Defense.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 01:45 AM

16. You left out General Matthis, who is 4th or 5th, saner than most on this list.

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Response to Liberty Belle (Reply #16)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 02:15 AM

17. I didn't leave him out -- I just stopped at #5. He's # 6.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 02:37 AM

20. Which one of these was Gerald Ford?

If Pense resigned a VP could be appointed and then Trump resigns leaving none of those in succession as POTUS and VP...it has happened.

Not arguing why they would do that, but there are scenarios that could play out...just saying.

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Response to Sancho (Reply #20)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 02:49 AM

21. He was VP. If DT and/or Pence resigned and was replaced, I wouldn't expect

the replacement to be any better than this motley crew.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #21)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 06:10 AM

22. Exactly, he was named when Agnew resigned. If facing jail (both Trump and Pence)....

Pence could be pardoned and be replaced by Hillary (or Biden, etc.), then Trump resigns; in return both are pardoned.

Otherwise, both are prosecuted. If the only way to avoid a criminal trial was to play ball with the Democrats who agree to the deal.

Lots of hypotheticals, but technically possible.

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Response to Sancho (Reply #22)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:10 AM

29. the senate would have to confirm the new veep in case of a vacancy.

so even in the very improbable scenario where donnie and pence agree in order to save their own hides, the senate would never agree. any republican senator who even appears to cooperate in making hillary president would be easily primaried.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:00 AM

24. Now that's one scary list.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:05 AM

26. I wonder if Jared and Ivanka think they get to stay

after 45 resigns/is removed/has an untimely heart attack...

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:07 AM

27. True we should not get our hopes up

but at least whoever takes over would be viewed as even less legitimate than the current officeholder...

edited for spelling

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:21 AM

32. A veritable smorgasboard of MAGA,

er, I mean MAGgots.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:26 AM

33. Paul Ryan will take over

Pence is almost as deep in this Russia stuff as Trump himself.

If Trump and Pence are both removed, whomever takes over is going to be so weak that they will be little more than a spokesperson for the office of the Presidency.

Trump's impeachment will destroy the Republican Party for a generation. Their agenda will be dead, their leaders disgraced.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:32 AM

35. Pence will pick a VP, then his new VP will pick one when Pence goes...

Who will Pence pick that will survive the hearings?

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Response to NightWatcher (Reply #35)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:49 AM

40. Paul Ryan.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 07:43 AM

39. Geez

What a pathetic and scary lineup.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 08:32 AM

44. The Line of Succession is moot and invalid, in my opinion.

Consider:

If the election itself is illegitimate, then it follows that, the Line of Succession is illegitimate. Even if Pence and everyone on down the line are innocent, the Line of Succession is illegitimate, regardless of the legal status of anyone in the line. This is unchartered territory, and there is nothing in the Constitution, that I can quickly recall, perhaps I'm wrong, that provides guidance for a foreign state basically picking our President over the will of the People. Since there is no Constitutional Remedy, we really have no quick fix for this. I don't claim to have answers. I would propose several solutions:

1) The Presidency goes to the runner-up and winner of the popular vote.

2) Hold new special elections.

3) Congress creates a select bipartisan committee to choose the President.

4) Hold another Electoral College vote in states where the winner won by less than a certain percentage - say, 3% or less (or a percentage to be determined)


That's all I can think of now ... I think I'll start a thread on it, and people can come up with ideas to add to the thread.

Provide your idea for solutions here.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Mar 31, 2017, 09:28 AM

46. The only one I see not caught up in the scandal is Hatch.

 

I know it's too much to ask for a special election, but I think we need to demand a new election.

Marching in the streets seems to be working pretty good.

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