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Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:13 PM

If you are over 60, or studied Watergate at length...Does this feel like Watergate ?

Does this feel like Watergate...?

kind of like drip, drip, drip,
It feels like it to me, and I followed Watergate everyday.
Especially when hearings were held....

.Or..is it wishful thinking, or reading too much into too much.....Just asking.
If you were there, and wanted Tricky Dick out, as much as I did, then you know how I feel..

I want this Drumpf out, as much as Tricky Dick..and that says a whole lot...

thanks for reading this..

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Reply If you are over 60, or studied Watergate at length...Does this feel like Watergate ? (Original post)
Stuart G Mar 20 OP
Kablooie Mar 20 #1
yeoman6987 Mar 21 #188
Kingofalldems Mar 21 #189
WillowTree Mar 20 #2
Glitterati Mar 20 #3
jaysunb Mar 20 #4
JI7 Mar 20 #5
kentuck Mar 20 #6
Stuart G Mar 20 #9
volstork Mar 20 #29
Cosmocat Mar 20 #43
oldtime dfl_er Mar 20 #77
kerry-is-my-prez Mar 20 #126
radical noodle Mar 21 #179
lapfog_1 Mar 20 #7
CrispyQ Mar 20 #55
jaysunb Mar 20 #92
JohnnyLib2 Mar 20 #103
Amaryllis Mar 20 #131
calimary Mar 21 #180
skylucy Mar 20 #8
Skidmore Mar 20 #10
dhol82 Mar 20 #84
yardwork Mar 20 #129
Mme. Defarge Mar 21 #177
Hoyt Mar 20 #11
jaysunb Mar 20 #96
LeftInTX Mar 20 #12
furtheradu Mar 20 #13
The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 20 #14
Zorro Mar 20 #15
KingCharlemagne Mar 20 #53
berni_mccoy Mar 20 #16
KingCharlemagne Mar 20 #56
berni_mccoy Mar 20 #71
classykaren Mar 20 #117
WinkyDink Mar 20 #127
DUgosh Mar 20 #161
The Blue Flower Mar 20 #17
jberryhill Mar 20 #30
msanthrope Mar 20 #169
ananda Mar 20 #18
lapucelle Mar 20 #19
truebluegreen Mar 20 #40
lapucelle Mar 20 #48
truebluegreen Mar 20 #59
Alice11111 Mar 20 #82
malaise Mar 20 #20
grantcart Mar 20 #21
KingCharlemagne Mar 20 #66
Alice11111 Mar 20 #86
barbtries Mar 20 #22
jodymarie aimee Mar 20 #23
Alice11111 Mar 20 #90
Silver Gaia Mar 20 #116
uponit7771 Mar 20 #136
Ohioblue22 Mar 20 #24
gopiscrap Mar 20 #25
jberryhill Mar 20 #26
Paladin Mar 20 #27
classykaren Mar 20 #122
WinkyDink Mar 20 #128
Chasstev365 Mar 20 #28
Alice11111 Mar 20 #98
WhiteTara Mar 20 #31
NurseJackie Mar 20 #32
The empressof all Mar 20 #39
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The empressof all Mar 20 #51
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msanthrope Mar 20 #70
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stopbush Mar 20 #73
The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 20 #105
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tirebiter Mar 20 #88
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Talk Is Cheap Mar 20 #95
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kstewart33 Mar 20 #100
L. Coyote Mar 20 #101
llmart Mar 20 #152
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John1956PA Mar 20 #106
regnaD kciN Mar 20 #107
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nancy1942 Mar 20 #111
Liberal In Red State Mar 20 #112
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NRaleighLiberal Mar 20 #114
classykaren Mar 20 #115
kerry-is-my-prez Mar 20 #118
flyingfysh Mar 20 #119
KT2000 Mar 20 #120
world wide wally Mar 20 #123
yallerdawg Mar 20 #124
WinkyDink Mar 20 #125
lostnfound Mar 20 #132
Mr.Bill Mar 20 #133
Greywing Mar 20 #134
pnwmom Mar 20 #135
NastyRiffraff Mar 20 #137
Scruffy1 Mar 20 #138
BamaRefugee Mar 20 #139
TygrBright Mar 20 #140
The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 20 #162
FakeNoose Mar 20 #174
Akamai Mar 20 #141
Golden Raisin Mar 20 #142
4bucksagallon Mar 20 #143
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delisen Mar 20 #146
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Historic NY Mar 20 #150
CK_John Mar 20 #151
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moondust Mar 20 #159
unblock Mar 20 #160
redstateblues Mar 20 #164
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Heartstrings Mar 20 #166
s-cubed Mar 20 #167
benld74 Mar 20 #168
John1956PA Mar 21 #193
GulfCoast66 Mar 20 #170
rufus dog Mar 20 #171
roamer65 Mar 20 #172
Juliusseizure Mar 20 #173
lunasun Mar 21 #175
marlakay Mar 21 #176
radical noodle Mar 21 #178
madamesilverspurs Mar 21 #181
dem in texas Mar 21 #182
southerncrone Mar 21 #183
Samantha Mar 21 #184
A HERETIC I AM Mar 21 #185
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riversedge Mar 21 #187
Gothmog Mar 21 #190
Greybnk48 Mar 21 #191
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onenote Mar 21 #194
Dan Mar 21 #195
Atman Mar 21 #196
Stuart G Mar 22 #197

Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:16 PM

1. I mentioned it felt like the beginnings of Watergate several weeks ago.

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Response to Kablooie (Reply #1)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 08:46 AM

188. Huge difference. Nixon had a democratic congress

 

Trump having the same party in charge will probably end up saving him. Even yesterday, repugs were protecting him by focusing on the leaks. After 2018, when we take back both houses of congress then we may see action but not before then.

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Response to yeoman6987 (Reply #188)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 09:01 AM

189. His supporters are hoping there is no action, that's for sure yeoman6987.

They support a traitor by the way.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:16 PM

2. No.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:17 PM

3. Yes

 

It was slow and methodical.

Until Nixon realized he was a goner. Then, things got real crazy.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:17 PM

5. not over 60 but read about it and this is a lot worse

Even with just the things we already know.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:17 PM

6. One aspect feels very similar.

I knew Nixon was a crook.

I feel the same way about Trump.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #6)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:21 PM

9. Your 13 words say what I feel and believed then, and now !!!!

I knew Nixon was a crook. I feel the same way about Trump

that is it...

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Response to kentuck (Reply #6)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:30 PM

29. I was only 8

and I knew Nixon was a crook. I remember asking my parents what was wrong with him.

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Response to volstork (Reply #29)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:46 PM

43. Me, too!

i remember us talking about the election on the elementary bus going to school and there were actually kids who thought he was great, and I was like wtf?

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Response to kentuck (Reply #6)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:22 PM

77. THIS

^^^^^

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Response to oldtime dfl_er (Reply #77)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:42 PM

126. I lived in a Repub area but the kids I went to HS with either hated Nixon or shut up.

This was around the hippy era and we fancied ourselves to hippy-like and older kids were getting drafted. It was definitely "not cool" to be a Nixon supporter. We were from a red pocket in Michigan.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #6)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 12:58 AM

179. I think trump is much worse than a crook

It's like the difference between a bank robber and a serial killer.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:20 PM

7. Yes... and no.

First off, Nixon was a crook and a paranoid.

Trump is a traitor, narcissist, conman, and a paranoid.

Second, Congress seemed less partisan to me in those days. I don't think Republicans tried to deflect or defend the indefensible. They are spinning hard right now (It's the LEAKS I tell ya).

Party over country.

So... in summary:

The person is worse and the crimes are much worse. The congress are traitors by defending a traitor.

Also... we need at least one "deepthroat" and we need "Woodstein".

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #7)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:04 PM

55. Excellent summary.

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #7)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:35 PM

92. I think Rachael Maddow will be that person and

Flynn is so far the one with the most exposure to the slammer and I don't think he''ll take one for the team.

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #7)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:54 PM

103. My view, too.

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #7)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:44 PM

131. What you said. Yes. Much worse crimes and much more complicit and partisan congress.

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #7)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 01:01 AM

180. This is a good summary!

To me it feels worse, AND on top of all the other similarities, the Russians are involved in this one.

SHEESH.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:20 PM

8. I was very young during Watergate (sigh) but this sure seems worse.

Or maybe I was too busy being boy-crazy at college so it didn't seem as bad? Na. This is worse.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:21 PM

10. It's worse.

Trump is insane at a level that Nixon didn't rise to. Pence is evil and a fanatic while Ford was a little crooked. Trump's staff is peopled by ideologues and this has all been brought to you by an enemy dictator. And Dems have not much power. Scary.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #10)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:24 PM

84. I'll second that!

Way worse than watergate.
Nixon was paranoid but not totally insane.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #10)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:44 PM

129. I agree. This is worse. Also, more people are willfully clueless now.

I feel that half the country will defend Trump no matter what.

It all feels worse to me.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #10)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 12:52 AM

177. Much, much worse.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:22 PM

11. Part of me feels like Watergate -- although a bigger crime. Other part hopes it's not Fitzmas.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #11)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:37 PM

96. Damn ! you just HAD to go there: Fitzmas. :) n/t

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:23 PM

12. No

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:23 PM

13. I was a kid, watched every day, after school..

This feels BIGGER.
That was an American scandal/crime.. this is multinational, & truly threatens our democracy.
The goal of MANY is to dismantle our institutions & way of Life.
NO one died in Watergate, numerous mystery deaths in this, at least a few I believe are connected.
This IS a big freakin deal.

Today was a goood day!

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:23 PM

14. Sort of, but Watergate took a lot longer.

The details trickled out much more slowly - there weren't any congressional hearings until after the criminal trials of the burglars, during which some of the connections between the burglars and the Nixon administration came to night. In the meantime Woodward and Bernstein were investigating the money trail. The existence of the tapes came to light a year later during the Senate hearings, and Nixon litigated their disclosure for another year, finally resigning in August of 1974.

This seems to be moving a whole lot faster.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:23 PM

15. It was slow in the beginning

Then Alexander Butterfield revealed that Nixon recorded all the Oval Office conversations. It was an explosive revelation.

We'll be at a similar point if and when indictments are handed down.

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Response to Zorro (Reply #15)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:03 PM

53. The reason Butterfield's revelation was so explosive is that, before that, John Dean

had merely alleged that Tricky Dick was involved in the cover-up. There was no proof of Dean's allegations. The tapes were that ironclad proof, minus the infamous 17 minutes.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:24 PM

16. It's bigger.

Nixon used wiretapping to monitor his political opponents. While illegal and unethical and worthy of impeachment, it wasn't treason.

Trump used Russia and its state sponsored hackers to spy on and damage his political opponents. This is treason.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #16)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:06 PM

56. Tricky Dick authorized the CIA to interfere with and obstruct an

FBI investigation. Please dont minimize the severity of Watergate.

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #56)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:19 PM

71. Yes obstruction. It's still not Treason.

And I'm not minimizing anything.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #71)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:35 PM

117. I think it is treason.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #16)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:43 PM

127. Yes, it is bigger, but that wasn't the question. Does it FEEL LIKE IT yet? I maintian no.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #127)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:28 PM

161. I agree

It's bigger, it's worse, but it doesn't feel like Watergate. There are no patriots in the entire a Republican Party.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:24 PM

17. I watched the Watergate hearings

This feels worse. At that time, no one imagined the potential depth of corruption or that it could conceivably cause the resignation of a president. We know better now, and the mendacity, blatant criminality in conflicts of interest, and sheer lunacy of this administration suggest a far, far worse scenario than an office break-in and cover-up. All indications are that the US was conquered by a foreign agency that wants to undermine our societal structures, and that IL Drumpf and his republican cohort are more than happy to do that. What this hearing has brought to the country's attention is far, far worse.

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Response to The Blue Flower (Reply #17)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:30 PM

30. Yep. The stakes are much higher

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #30)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 10:39 PM

169. I nearly vomited at several points today.

 

And not just because of anything I'd consumed.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:24 PM

18. No.

With Watergate, both the investigation and the appearances
before Congress were strictly about the breakin and the
cover-up as serious breaches of both ethics and the law.

This one is about Reep obstruction and lies.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:25 PM

19. It feels different to me.

Republicans were on board during Watergate because our democracy and institutions were being threatened. Now, some congressional republicans only seem to care about winning.

In addition, during Watergate, the press was more circumspect concerning their own journalistic integrity. They didn't spin or report gossip as news in order to drive sales and increase ratings.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #19)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:42 PM

40. They were sorta on board.

 

Iirc, per recollections many years later, many Republicans went into the investigation / hearings assuming there was no "there" there, and that the investigation would prove it.
.
.
.
Oops.

What is different now is innocence or guilt is immaterial: getting caught would be the problem.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #40)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:55 PM

48. You're probably right...my recollection is hazy.

But I don't recall Nixon being painted as a victim, and I don't remember Republicans telling Americans "you can't trust the investigators, and the newspapers of record are lying to you".

What some Republicans and their operatives are doing now borders on propaganda and the obstruction of justice

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #48)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:06 PM

59. Imo obstruction of justice and propaganda is what they do, now.

 

Appearances, straight dealing and civility were much more important then; the opposite is true now, certainly on the R side, and sometimes on our own.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #48)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:23 PM

82. Yes, there was a time when obstruction of justice

was important. Now, w all Repubs in power, it's not much of an issue.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:26 PM

20. Mentioned that on a thread this morning

Watergate V2

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:27 PM

21. More differences than similarities

Unfortunately this is completely different than Watergate.

After the initial revelations of crimes being committed there were two substantial actions that forced it to a level of bipartisanship that doesn’t exist now.

The first was that Judge Sirica rejected the negotiated pleas for the burglars that were caught (and were being paid to keep quiet). He imposed provisional 40 sentences and said that he would only review them when the prisoners revealed what was really going on.

James McCord sent a letter to Judge Sirica explaining that John Dean was orchestrating a cover up and that payments were being made so that people would keep quiet.

Dean decides to go to the prosecutor and get a good deal and gives minute by minute details of the crimes and the cover up but everything is stalled into a he said, he said dispute against the President.

Butterfield is called in and in an astonishing 5 minutes of testimony explains to everyone that all of the conversations by the President were recorded and the all confirm with a high degree of accuracy Dean’s testimony.

The fact is that cover ups usually work well at least against criminal prosecution. Libby held the line in the cover up against Cheney and they didn’t get anyone to flip against New Jersey Governor Christie, who everyone including the President knows, ordered the bridge closing.

The biggest difference was that there was a Special Prosecuting Attorney that kept the investigation going. The SPA act no longer exists and this Justice Department is not going to investigate itself, or this Administration.

A more likely outcome of this is that the Republicans will tire of having Trump around their neck and they will depose him using the 25th Amendment.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #21)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:15 PM

66. very interesting. The press has already compelled Flynn to resign and

Sessions to recuse himself, in the process documenting Flynn's lies and Sessions' perjury. If the FBI or career DoJ prosecutors get just one conspirator to flip, the whole mess starts to come unravelled, leading right up to Trump's oval office.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #21)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:29 PM

86. This was my thinking as well.

DT keeps his family so close, so he knows what is going on. That may help him avoid a 25th Amendment claim.
Mike Pence would be on board. Mattis. He has to have more of his cabinet, which he appointed, turn on him.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:27 PM

22. yes.

i'm 61. i'm hoping this is more like a waterfall though, because so much damage being done on a daily basis. trump makes nixon look like a patriotic sage. he was an excellent president compared to this one, and i hated his guts. i was so pissed in 1972 when i was just 1 year too young to vote.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:28 PM

23. the difference is

ordinary 1970s republicans used to have ethics and morals.....the ones we have today are bat shit right wing liars. Just a few went down with Nixon, all of our 2017 creeps stick together. We have watched it for 7 years in Wisconsin, and now are watching it nationally... they would follow each other to hell for a buck.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Reply #23)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:32 PM

90. Yep. These are not Gerald Ford Repubs. Professional liars.

They have to cover their own butts and don't want an open investigation.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Reply #23)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:35 PM

116. Yes, I agree, and this is a BIG difference.

Ethics and decency exited the Republican party starting in the Reagan era, and what replaced it has continued to grow into the stinking blob of evil it is today. It is destroying us all at this point, and if we don't excise it this time, it may well kill us all.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Reply #23)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:49 PM

136. +1, on the other hand the Ruskies have something on the KGOP leadership I believe... they're lookin

... stupid defending the indefensible

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:28 PM

24. no the con party of today is nothing compared to that con party

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:28 PM

25. I'm not over 60 but did study Watergate

and yes this is beginning to feel a bit like Watergate

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:29 PM

26. No, but it depends on what you mean by "Watergate"


The basic circumstances of Watergate was penny-ante stuff, and the attempted bugging wasn't successful anyway. To say that Nixon was "paranoid" doesn't quite capture the essence of it, since in exercising his power inappropriately to thwart investigation into the Watergate break-in per se, he was trying to keep a lid on a whole bunch of other stuff that the "plumbers" had been up to. It's not "paranoia" when you actually do have something to hide, but what he had to hide were the products of a collective paranoia that was amplified by certain loons which they employed as operatives.

Other than that, whether one agrees or disagrees with his complex policy legacy, it wasn't as if Nixon was incompetent to do the job of president or that foreign powers were pulling his strings.

What's going on here makes Watergate look like a debate on table etiquette.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:29 PM

27. We were dealing with a lot saner president in Nixon.

God knows I'd love to see the current situation evolve into a Watergate scenario, but we've got a way to go, yet.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #27)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:36 PM

122. I am 67 and yes we were. He needs to go.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #27)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:43 PM

128. Saner offspring as well!

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:29 PM

28. Today did.

I was 8 in 1973, but I was the youngest in a very political family. Adam Schiff may it seem very grave this morning.

The most noted difference is that in 1973, Republicans wanted to get to the truth about Nixon and Watergate, but it was appalling to see the partisan Republicans, losers Gowdy, Nunes, and King make fools of themselves so, desperately trying to deflect and distract from Trump.

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Response to Chasstev365 (Reply #28)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:40 PM

98. Exactly. These are not responsible, ethical people.

Many are in the web themselves. The only reason they would take him out is to prevent their own stories from coming out. Hearings will likely expose some of them in some complicity...they will be investigating themselves. For that reason, the 25th Amendment might work better. If they could get enough of the Cabinet to turn on him ...to save their own skins. That is their Plan B.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:34 PM

31. I also listened to Iran/Contra and

the outcome of that one was definitely not good for our side. Those traitors are still roaming the countryside free.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:36 PM

32. Will President Pence pardon Ex-President Trump?

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #32)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:41 PM

39. Yes...No doubt if it gets to that point

I'm still sticking to resignation by the end of April for health reasons...

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Response to The empressof all (Reply #39)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:44 PM

41. That's an intriguing possibility. But would that end any criminal investigations?

And could Trump still be held accountable?

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #41)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:59 PM

51. If he is of sound mind it should of course continue

I suspect he will have an Alzheimer's diagnosis and they will just let it go under the guise of compassion and not wishing to drag the country through any more turmoil. He will still be able to play golf, tweet and say his crazy stuff...but people won't take it seriously any more.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #41)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:44 PM

99. He would probably be pardoned. The Repubs won't want investigations and trials goung on forever.

Unless he is incompetent to stand trial. I just can't see DT going that route...as crazy as he is, he will fight to the death.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #32)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:25 PM

85. Don't assume Pence will be president

He's almost just as dirty in this.

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #85)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:32 PM

89. Rachel def proved Pence knew about Flynn-Russia-Turkey

long before he said last wk. he was "surprised" that Flynn was an unregistered Turkish agent who was having, er, problems.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:36 PM

33. I listened to the hearings with Butterfield,

Dean, Erlichman ("twist slowly, slowly in the wind......").
Chills ran through my body.

But, I felt that MOST of the politicians would "do the right thing."

AIN'T NO WAY I believe that now!!!!

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:37 PM

34. Its Watergate at light speed.

Watergate was slower, info was only available on limited TV coverage, with more comprehensive stories coming from major printed press. The focus was mostly on the big name principle players and the backstory was often sketchy. It took years to reach the fateful conclusion

Now, the internet is awash in many different angles, all the supporting roles are hashed out, and there's a ton of links to more supporting doc and related stories of interest. Look how quickly things have moved since Trump's Inauguration Day. I'm looking at this going down within months.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:38 PM

35. No. Seems, feels, appears worse. n/t

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:38 PM

36. Yes and No

It feels like Watergate with the convoluted information coming in in drips. I've been paying attention to this Russia stuff for months so I'm feeling like I'm not getting any new info from what some of us have already suspected. I just want to scream WTF why is it taking so long.... But Watergate was slow steady drip too. I also feel the committee hearings I watched were not blatantly partisan as we saw today.

I also was never fearful for my life during Watergate. I didn't suspect Nixon would launch an attack to deflect attention. I'm not so sure that Trump can contain himself when he realizes he is backed into a corner. Scary times.

On the upside...If he doesn't blow up the world....I have a strong suspicion there will be a concerted effort behind close doors to get him to resign. Kushner's name figuring so prominently in some of these Russian contacts and it being leaked publically today will not sit well with Ivanka and I think the kids will run scared. They have the most to lose in this whole situation. There will be some serious family sit downs.. I think he will be gone by the end of April! (Let's Hope So Anyway)

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:40 PM

37. watergate was bad, this is worse

worse because of the conspiracies with Russia, the myriad manipulations of the vote, the campaign of lying and bullying.
I was 22 at the time, and very aware and active politically.
Nixon was vile, dark and menacing. "Drumpf" is so much worse, vile, obscene, repulsive and mentally very very sick.

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Response to msdogi (Reply #37)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:06 PM

57. Welcome to DU

You've been here a while I just hadn't seen your name.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:40 PM

38. That was the first time something like that had happened to the country.

Now we have a frame of reference. The country was rocked sideways by the realization that the corruption could go that high, right into the oval office

Not that Nixon was a popular guy--far from it. The main cry from the people was Vietnam--wanting an end to it Nixon promised to do just that--with a secret plan--but it didn't happen.

Tricky Dick was not a nice guy, and was rather paranoid as well as racist and dishonest, so there are echoes of that.

The hearings today seem familiar, and I'm sure more will be coming to light.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:44 PM

42. I'm almost 76. This is different.

Back then there were decent, conscientious Republicans.
Republicans with an upper case 'R'.
Many of them were as horrified and outraged by what unfolded during the Watergate investigation as the rest of the country.

Sadly that is no more.
There appear to be a couple of senators who, once in a while, seem to put country ahead of party.
McCain and Graham.
Sometimes.

If the current climate had existed back then, Nixon would not have resigned and he would have no fear of being impeached.

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Response to trof (Reply #42)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:23 PM

158. I, too, am vintage. I agree with you. EOM

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:48 PM

44. It's worse. For one thing the House & Senate are so damn polarized, that I haven't seen signs...

...of a bipartisan comittee of people with sufficient gravitas to carry it off. Sam Ervin, where are you?

Today's hearing was a start. A good start.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:48 PM

45. I am not sure at what point Repubs chose country over party, but a significant

number did. That is what seems so different (and soul-sucking) now. I was very young but my Mom watched every second of those hearings.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:51 PM

46. It's scarier because the House is infected.

There are few if any patriots there (follow the money), and they aren't honest people. I think the Senate is less tainted. Let's hope so.

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Response to tavernier (Reply #46)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:35 PM

93. that's true but also, some Cong'l R's are acting like they're complict

Nunes for one---he wants to keep digging into the "wiretapping" but is disinterested in Trumprussia.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:52 PM

47. It's worse.

Much worse.

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Response to Cracklin Charlie (Reply #47)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:02 PM

52. I'm 64 and feel it's worse. Look on faces of Sen Feinstein and Grassely say much worse

after briefing last week.

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Response to IADEMO2004 (Reply #52)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:36 PM

121. Agree. It feels (and IS) much worse.

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Response to Cracklin Charlie (Reply #47)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:23 PM

157. I agree

While Nixon should have been taken down for undermining the Paris Peace Talks (thanks to LBJ and Everett Dirksen for covering that up for the "good of the country") Watergate was, in the end, really was about incredibly dirty politics and the attempt to cover them up. Selling the country out to a foreign power wasn't a part of it.

I will say I that this seems to be moving along a whole lot faster than Watergate did.


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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:57 PM

49. No

I am 66 and remember watergate painfully well. This feels much more like an act of treason or an act of war. Watergate I feel was more about dirty politics and a president who was cracking under pressure. I am fearful of how this will turn out. Also, we are extremely vulnerable with such chaos in the executive branch, very troubling.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:59 PM

50. Sam Ervin engendered a lot more confidence and gravitas than Grassley or Nunce. n/t

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:03 PM

54. I was 22 years old

I watched every minute of it.

This is getting to feel mare and more like Watergate.

The only difference is, the Democrats held majorities in both branches of Congress.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:06 PM

58. Yes

Last edited Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:44 PM - Edit history (1)

In college then and riveted by the hearings as was everyone else on campus.

I'd forgotten how intense the Watergate hearings were, but today's hearing brought back a lot of that same feeling.

I think the FBI is going to squeeze a little fish - my guess would be Stone and/or Page, turn them and work their way up the food chain. Then it will really be fun!

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #58)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:52 PM

102. That would be a new turn

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:08 PM

60. Yes. It's a cloud over the Presidency...

It felt very much like this in 73, even before they found out about the taping system.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:11 PM

61. Feeling

Is similar.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:11 PM

62. Pushing 60... Pushing REAL hard.

My answer is no. This doesn't feel like Watergate.

Nothing will happen to trump.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:11 PM

63. Others Here That Are My Age (66)

Have summed it up pretty well. The biggest difference is today TV News is on 24/7 while back then it was only on a half hour a night. The newspapers were far more effective back then because they were the sole purveyors of investigative reporting.

The other difference is Trump himself. He's not as smart as Nixon was (though just as paranoid) and Nixon wasn't directly involved in trying to deflect the attention like Trump is trying to do on an hourly basis.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:14 PM

64. This is worse

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:14 PM

65. This is far worse than Watergate and things are breaking down for

the so-called president much faster.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:15 PM

67. It should be...but we probably can't even get a Spec Prosecuter

The Repubs control the house, by a huge margin. The house investigations are a scam. The AG worked for dt before he was AG. There will eventually be a Dep AG, but I don't think there is a chance in hell she will appoint a Special Prosecuter. AG Sessions is going to Mar o Lago to dine w DT. No chance they are going to let a bipartisan committee or special prosecutor, is my bet.

This is far worse than Watergate, but during Watergate we had a special prosecutor and had a balance of powers.

If it goes on until after the midterm election, and we take back the house, maybe. The odds of that with gerrymandering is small. The courts are about to be packed w RW Scalia types, who broke all constitutional precedent, to install GWB. If it winds up in the US Sup Crt, we won't be treated fairly.

It's like we have bb guns and they have nuclear weapons. It's Much harder for us to get an independent investigation than it was in Watergate.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:17 PM

68. This is worse.

I am 65. Nixon was a crook but drumpf is a traitor.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:18 PM

69. Yes. Feels like but worse

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:18 PM

70. Worse. nt

 

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:20 PM

72. I watched it all too and while the seriousness of it feels similar, Watergate was all in-house . The

Trump crimes are international collaboration against our government, presumably for money. Wow.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:21 PM

73. No. During Watergate, Rs wanted to get out the truth. Not true with today's Rs.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #73)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:03 PM

105. At first, the GOPers were solidly behind Nixon.

About three months after the break-in it was discovered that John Mitchell, the Attorney General, controlled a secret fund used to finance intelligence-gathering by the Republicans' Committee to Re-Elect the President (CREEP) against the Democrats. Then, on October 10, the FBI revealed that the Watergate break-in was part of CREEP's campaign of political spying and sabotage - but the GOP still staunchly supported Nixon, and he was re-elected in November in a landslide.

It wasn't until after the criminal trials of the burglars, and the additional evidence leading to the White House, that the GOPers started to pull away from Nixon and finally agreed to hearings and the appointment of a special prosecutor.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #73)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:44 PM

130. Um, no. No, they didn't.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:21 PM

74. We have a POTUS who may very well be extorted by or a tool of a foreign country

I just wanted to get that out there first.
I've read every comment on this thread and wanted to comment.

I'm about to turn 50 so I was very young but my interest in politics has lead me to learn about Watergate. My actual recollection of Watergate was being over at a friend's house and his father was sitting in a dark room watching a floor model TV in the middle of a sunny afternoon. I asked what he was doing and my friend said, "something about politics".

As with many things today we skip over the first steps or root. The fact that the absurd claims of wire tapping were part of the testimony today is a perfect example. Those who've followed this story know the origin (Levin-Breitbart) and that it's been fully discredited AND Whay the hell is the POTUS commenting on a NOTHING article from a partisan political mouthpiece? THE ROOT of this is that there are a remarkable number and depth of contacts between the small bubble of people around Trump and a Former KGB operative who runs a major adversary. That's what's scary about this to me.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:21 PM

75. Congress was very, very different then.

For one, Democrats had a majority in both sides of the Capital.

Second, and most important, the GOP were not a cabal of ideological assholes.

Regardless, it took over two years to get Nixon out. And many months after October 20, 1973, the Saturday Night Massacre, which resulted in the first House impeachment proceedings.

The Watergate break-in took place in late June of 1972.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:22 PM

76. No. This is like the Strait of Hormuz suddenly springs open, flooding Eden

and turning it into the Persian Gulf c. 8000 BC. This is Flood level politics we are witnessing.

Remember, Nixon was intelligent. Trump is not. Nixon had loyal supporters, Trump does not.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:22 PM

78. This is like Watergate on steroids plus a spy novel thrown in....

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:23 PM

79. Completely

Thanks.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:23 PM

80. Pretty much, but Nixon was easier to pity.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:23 PM

81. 71

The two people I remember most were Martha Mitchell and Barbara Jordan.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:24 PM

83. Maybe Watergate on meth and anabolic steroids

Nixon was awful but he knew how government worked.

This asshole is just plain nuts and has nothing to recommend him.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #83)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:29 PM

87. I agree, Warpy

Watergate wasn't as serious as Trumprussia, but it happened against the backdrop of the Vietnam War where every male 18-35(?) could be drafted unless like Dump, he got a deferment or a good lottery number. Nixon was hated for perpetuating and widening the war. Dump is also hated for...everything he does.

This is a more serious matter than a few plumbers breaking into Dem. HQ. But it was a serious time considering Vietnam.

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Response to wordpix (Reply #87)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:36 PM

94. By 1974, a lot of people had realized he'd lied about ending the war

as it continued to drag on and on, despite the appeals by the sane of declaring victory and getting the hell out of there.

His paranoia had also started to color every single decision he made and that's the real reason he was ousted, Watergate being enough to impeach him over but only the final excuse. Once his own party told him they didn't have the votes to keep him in office, he realized he was finished. Resignation allowed him SS protection, his pension, and staying out of jail. The latter cost this country a great deal.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #94)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:10 PM

149. I know, white collar crooks like Nixon make off with the loot

even if they're disgraced, it's off to the Bahamas with Bebe Robozo (can't really remember name) to retire in comfort for the rest of your life.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:30 PM

88. Watergate was purely domestic.

The Russian issue must be addressed. Trying to draw in England to cover his ass is not helpful to national security, either

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:32 PM

91. The GOP was not this messed up

There really aren't any reasonable Republicans, and ultimately, Trump cannot be removed until they feel they are certain that their jobs depend on it. And they are far more afraid of losing a primary to trump-loyalist tea-party nuts than they worry about the General election.

Also, the press was far more diverse and independent of corporate interests than they are today.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:36 PM

95. Whole new ballgame here...

 

This is a foreign country interfering with America's elections.

This is a Presidential candidate and now president with an administration that is in cahoots with Russia.

This is a whole lot worse. I realize that right now there is only circumstantial evidence, but
it sure is heavy duty.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:38 PM

97. It does a little though the Democrats were in charge then.

I think Trump is done unless we have a domestic "incident" or Trump attacks another country.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:46 PM

100. Watergate was worse, much worse.

I was a political science major and editor of the university's student newspaper at the time. I followed Watergate very closely and wrote about it. It took 2 years before Nixon resigned. The scandal spread across the FBI, CIA and DOJ. Nixon's enemies list was used particularly by Nixon's two top advisors, Haldeman and Ehrlichman, to damage those on the list and people in the three agencies did Nixon's bidding. Payoffs, bribery, dirty tricks, you name it. John Mitchell, the Attorney General was convicted and did jail time as did many others in the Nixon administration.

So far, those being investigated are limited to Trump people and the Russians. No crimes have been established by anyone across the government's agencies.

Consider that it was first the press (mainly Woodward and Bernstein and the Washington Post) and later the Senate investigative and House investigative committees that brought Nixon down. There was partisanship on the committees, but nothing that approached what we have now. There was not stonewalling that we witnessed today by Repubs on the House committee and that will likely get worse.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:50 PM

101. This is far more serious, an election is on trial, not just a President.

We are faced with a dilemma the Constitution does not address very well, what to do if a cheater gets in. Plus, co-conspirators are the majority in Congress.

We are in new territory where an overthrow of the government may happen, or the Supreme Court nullifying everything since inauguration to avert the overthrow, unless Congress decides to take this seriously or Trump resigns and a lot of arrests are made.

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Response to L. Coyote (Reply #101)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:16 PM

152. Finally, someone on this thread posts what I think is the biggest difference...

and that is that the rightful winner of the Presidency was denied the office due to election fraud, and we will be entering new territory if that is the case.

I knew it the night of the election - I just knew it in my soul that something had happened that wasn't legit. Let's not forget that a lot of the down ticket races were affected also.

I'm 68 - old enough to remember Watergate and Nixon's election and I was starting to be more politically aware and I tried to convince some people that he was a crook but they just pooh-poohed me. I did say "told you so" when it all shook out!

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Response to llmart (Reply #152)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:42 PM

163. Peter Daou: I have diligently avoided saying the 2016 election was stolen

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:02 PM

104. Feels different to me in some respects, similar in others

Both are crooked liars. Nixon was a smarter liar.

Parts of this seem to be unraveling faster and yet since we're nine months into it, maybe not.

I think it's more partisan today. More GOP would be against Trump in the 70s.

A BIG difference is the control the GOP has today over the House, Senate, Supreme Court and White House. Nixon was up against a Democratic House and Senate. If we had those today, impeachment proceedings might be under way.

I do not think the media is as honest or as good in terms of journalism at it was back then.

I'm sure I could come up with more but those are what hit me off the top of my head.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:04 PM

106. No. By the summer of 1973, I felt Nixon would go down because of the Democratic Congress.

This feels more like Clinton who was safe because of his Democratic congress.

Also, in this case, I do not think there will be much, if any, evidence that Trump ordered (or knew in advance) of any cyber hacking.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:07 PM

107. Not in the key area...

...that Nixon was being investigated by a Democratic-majority Congress. If he had had a Republican majority, as we do now, "Watergate" would be a footnote in the history books, a minor scandal that got a few low-level aides fired at most.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:10 PM

108. No, during Watergate, I was proud of my country

My sense was that the Congress wanted to know the truth.

Now, I feel the Republicans only want to keep power, no matter the cost to our democracy.

Party before country.

Fascism before civil and human rights.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:18 PM

109. Worse

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:21 PM

110. I hope so! nt

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:26 PM

111. No. This is much worse.

I never felt that Nixon might nuke us all because he got in a snit. With Trump I sort of expect it. I don't see anyone stopping him.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:27 PM

112. One can hope!

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:31 PM

113. Nope...We have inept media now...

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:31 PM

114. A bit similar....far worse

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:33 PM

115. No it seems much worse.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:35 PM

118. Watergate on speed. Except this is much, much worse. It took forever to get Nixon......

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:36 PM

119. It's moving much faster

Several times Watergate felt like it had run out of gas, and then something new would appear in the news. This time, new stuff is chiming out every day.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:36 PM

120. No - Nixon engaged in coverup

This is about a president of our country giving our adversary a place at the head of the table. To me this is about a traitor to this country. Much worse than Watergate.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:40 PM

123. Today began to feel like it.

As far as fretting over the partisan Congress, it won't matter when the evidence is overwhelming as it appears to be. And yes, this one has all the factors Watergate had plus the sellout to Russia, so it is both bigger and worse.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:40 PM

124. Yes indeed!

Started with an administration belittling the press.

Then the Democratic National Committee has a break-in.

The press starts to investigate "all the president's men."

Insiders divulging information.

Now - follow the money!

Oh - yes indeedy!

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:41 PM

125. Not yet. The Republicans are still very dug in. (I watched the Watergate Hearings daily.)

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:45 PM

132. I was only 10 but I watched the hearings with RAPT attention and read ATPM as soon as it was out

I loved school but HATED missing any part of the watergate hearings...would rush home to watch it every afternoon. Sam Ervin was my hero, and John Dean was the dashing complicated one atoning for his sins...

The answer is YES..It's drip--drip-drip, and NO, it's WAY WORSE than Watergate, it's
Earth-shaking. Slightly terrified -- "what if the large cabal closes ranks and stops the process?" -- but also I feel very proud of our government's structure as it takes its first steps toward fixing itself. I feel like I am watching an immune system coming alive to fight off the invader.

I just hope to God that Comey is a good American. He is in such an important position to accelerate the exposure of the truth OR to delay justice for years. I really don't know what to think about him.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:45 PM

133. As far as the number of people involved,

this feels like Watergate X 100. And I am not exaggerating.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:46 PM

134. I am 60 ... this is much worse. We're talking about collusion with Russia

and interference in our elections by a foreign power to get this fuckface elected. We can't afford to have a drip, drip, drip. I hated Tricky Dicky and wanted him gone. My hatred for this POS has now surpassed Nixon ... I feel such white hot rage that Trump and his little troopers are putting our nation in dangers way. He and his entire administration need to be locked up in prison for treason and a special election held.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:47 PM

135. Worse. But what is familiar is having to go through an election AFTER the first signs

that something was seriously amiss.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:50 PM

137. It does and it doesn't.

It feels like Watergate, except...

This is worse. Much worse. Watergate involved a domestic break in, and other dirty tricks. All were aimed at Democrats, and all were local to this country.

What we're looking at now involves enlisting a hostile foreign government to affect a U.S. presidential election. It may involve treason. I think it will all come out, but we may have to wait awhile.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:51 PM

138. Not even close.

I lived through it and the evil of the current regime is in a class by itself. At least Nixon had brain, and was probably the last progressive President of the 20th Century.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:57 PM

139. So far, it doesn't for me...

...but back then things grew more slowly and there NO way to get updates, other people's insights, etc (at least in Alabama), you just had to watch the hearings and wait for the 6 O'clock News.

I remember feeling kinda scared that it could tear America apart, but it turned out that lots of Senators back then actually had a sense of honor and patriotism, and did the right things.
Now, that sense of honor seems exceedingly rare. I think most will take their party over their country.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:58 PM

140. Can't tell yet.

One thing feels DEFINITELY different:

Nixon and co. knew what they were doing was skeevy. They knew it was against the law, they knew they had to do it on the downlow. They had plans and contingencies and a playbook of countermoves to manage the cover-up, and they ran it. Until the cover-up itself became the issue.

The crimes- the various ratfucking ops, and finally the Watergate break-in, were pure criminal sleaze, lies and cheating.

But the crimes themselves did not threaten the Constitution or the ability of America to govern itself peacefully as a democracy. It was the COVERUP that did that, and it was the COVERUP that they got nailed on. It was the Saturday Night Massacre, the suborning of Mitchell to run interference for them, and all the other misuses of Executive power to cover up the crimes that finally convinced the GOP leadership to tell Nixon "You are done. Not even we can make this go away, and in fact, we don't want to."

Although we don't yet know what-all will emerge on and co., I think it's highly likely that a good many of them, including himself, have no real idea of just how criminal what they were doing is. In fact, I very much doubt that there was one, coherent plan, the way there was with CREEP in '72. I think the reporter who likened this krewe to "The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight" was spot-on.

That doesn't mean they're somehow 'nicer' than Tricky Dick & Co, just stupider, less knowledgeable about government and how it operates, and more willing to take big risks, throw each other under the bus, try anything and everything to get what they want. No restraints at all. And I think initially, no idea or contingency plan about covering things up because once they "won" many of these idiots thought that all the opposition would melt away before the Imperial Power of His Orangitude.

When they realized that wouldn't happen, it was way too late to run a conventional cover-up, hell, they couldn't. So their strategy is based on deny, delay, distract, deflect.

The other big difference is that in 1972 there were some Republicans who understood governing, valued things like ethics and principles, law and Constitution over pure partisan victory. There weren't many, but there were some. And there were some didn't care so much about that stuff but who had a good sense of practical politics and how quickly and nastily things could change. And when they read the tea leaves they were on board the Cleanup Train fairly quickly.

We have no such GOPers with the possible exception of McCain, who's largely a spent force, and maybe one or two old bulls lurking on the back benches and keeping their yaps shut for the moment.

Things that DO feel the same include the flop sweat that's showing up on every Admin spox in front of any camera, the speed and energy of the fan-dancing, the sheer malice and heedlessness of the damage they're doing the Republic, and the looming sense of "more will be revealed, more will be required."

analytically,
Bright

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Response to TygrBright (Reply #140)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:35 PM

162. Good analysis!

The Nixon administration people involved in Watergate were professional, even in their criminality. Trump's bunch, in contrast, are a collection of Keystone Kops who can barely put their own pants on without help. I think the sheer incompetence of the whole sorry gang will be their undoing because they don't know how to do an effective coverup. Trump and his minions are used to running a collection of closely-held businesses with little oversight to prevent them from doing pretty much whatever they wanted to do, however they want to do it. They didn't have to cover up much of anything because nobody was watching.

The GOPers in Congress have to be aware that Trump's WH is a dumpster fire, but they'll back him up for awhile because they believe he'll sign (without reading) whatever legislation they hand him. So would Pence, or course, but the problem the GOPers have at this point with abandoning Trump is that he's been in office for only two months - and most of them have been supporting him enthusiastically, at least since he won the nomination. It would be very hard for them to do a volte-face so soon, partly because it would mean admitting they were wrong in the first place for supporting him, and partly because there are still a base of Trump supporters in their districts that they'll have to report to, and soon, for House members. Trump's support is down to about 37% now, but it's a committed 37%. So I think we'll see the GOPers stick with him for awhile - right now there would have to be something like Nixon's "smoking gun" tape to change the minds of most of them.

But maybe there is a smoking gun, and it will be discovered. We can hope.

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Response to TygrBright (Reply #140)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 11:28 PM

174. Yes!

TygrBright this is a very good analysis. I came on here to say basically the same thing, but you've said it better.

The 1972 Watergate Republicans consisted of (mostly) men who had fought in World War II. Even Nixon, lying weasel that he was, understood that you never collude with our nation's enemies. Dirty tricks against the Democratic Party were one thing, but treason is still treason no matter what.

I can't believe the GOP of 1972 Watergate Era would ever have been involved in something like this. The scope and depth of the betrayal by the current crop of Republicans - and the insanity of our current POTUS - just beats the hell out of everything we've ever seen.


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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:02 PM

141. As a 67-year-old, this sure as hells seems like Watergate, as I have said to others today.

With Watergate there was revelation after revelation, and the dams burst wide open.

This seems unstoppable now and it seems that anyone who tries to prevent us from finding out what has happened -- such as Trey Gowdy -- will be vilified by the general population.

Watergate! Watergate! Watergate! Watergate! I can smell the odor of gasoline in the morning!!!

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:03 PM

142. I'm in my late 60s. This feels

infinitely more multi-layered, complex and international than Watergate, and we are only beginning to scratch the surface of hard facts and hard evidence. Back then the Republican members of the Committee were not the standard issue, block-voting obstructionists that Republicans are today. Back then they were capable of putting country above party. So far there is no imposing figure like Sam Ervin.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:04 PM

143. No it doesn't, this is far worse.

Watergate was about the break in at the Hotel and the coverup, CREEP.. Far worse was Nixon and his staff colluding with the South Vietnamese to keep the war going for his benefit during the peace process and election cycle. This he was never charged with..... At least the Vietnamese were considered our allies at that time. This Trump treason is collusion with our cold war enemies the Russians along with the Chinese who were responsible for many of the deaths of Americans by supplying arms to the North and VC in Vietnam.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/31/opinion/sunday/nixons-vietnam-treachery.html?_r=0

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:05 PM

144. This is worse - Watergate was totally domestic and Nixon was essentially sane compared...

...to trump.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:05 PM

145. Yes. To indict underlings to set them up to flip on their bosses to avoid jail time is similar.

Watergate started out as a criminal break-in, then expanded toward a White House network.

When there is an independent prosecutor with the power to subpoena tax returns, it will definitely be similar.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:09 PM

146. At times I have felt we have been on the verge of another Sat Night Massacre

when Nixon in an effort to withhold evidence ordered the shut down the Office of the Special Prosecutor and
moved to fire the Attorney General when he refused.

It was a lightning bolt move by Nixon and shocked the government and citizens, especially when Nixon order the FBI to move in and secure the Special prosecutor office. Workers were only permitted to take out personal papers.

It felt as though we were about to become a totalitarian state.

When I read Tillerson's statements about keeping the press and the people in the dark until he made a decision and decided to inform us, I felt the same way.

Nixon knew he was making a last ditch effort to save himself and was willing to do what he knew was wrong to preserve himself and his presidency.

Tillerson and others around Trump have no respect for the Constitution-which is worse and in the 70s there were a significant number of honorable republicans. Not so many today. However a positive today is the immediate widespread resistance after the election


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/watergate/articles/102173-2.htm


Nixon Forces Firing of Cox; Richardson, Ruckelshaus Quit
President Abolishes Prosecutor's Office; FBI Seals Records

By Carroll Kilpatrick
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, October 21, 1973; Page A01

In the most traumatic government upheaval of the Watergate crisis, President Nixon yesterday discharged Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox and accepted the resignations of Attorney General Elliot L. Richardson and Deputy Attorney General William D. Ruckelshaus.

The President also abolished the office of the special prosecutor and turned over to the Justice Department the entire responsibility for further investigation and prosecution of suspects and defendants in Watergate and related cases.

Shortly after the White House announcement, FBI agents sealed off the offices of Richardson and Ruckelshaus in the Justice Department and at Cox's headquarters in an office building on K Street NW.

An FBI spokesman said the agents moved in "at the request of the White House."

Agents told staff members in Cox's office they would be allowed to take out only personal papers. A Justice Department official said the FBI agents and building guards at Richardson's and Ruckelshaus' offices were there "to be sure that nothing was taken out."

Richardson resigned when Mr. Nixon instructed him to fire Cox and Richardson refused. When the President then asked Ruckelshaus to dismiss Cox, he refused, White House spokesman Ronald L. Ziegler said, and he was fired. Ruckelshaus said he resigned.

Finally, the President turned to Solicitor General Robert H. Bork, who by law becomes acting Attorney General when the Attorney General and deputy attorney general are absent, and he carried out the President's order to fire Cox. The letter from the President to Bork also said Ruckelshaus resigned.

These dramatic developments were announced at the White House at 8:25 p.m. after Cox had refused to accept or comply with the terms of an agreement worked out by the President and the Senate Watergate committee under which summarized material from the White House Watergate tapes would be turned over to Cox and the Senate committee.

In announcing the plan Friday night, the President ordered Cox to make no further effort to obtain tapes or other presidential documents.

Cox responded that he could not comply with the President's instructions and elaborated on his refusal and vowed to pursue the tape recordings at a televised news conference yesterday.

That set in motion the chain of events that resulted in the departure of Cox and the two top officials of the Justice Department and immediately raised prospects that the President himself might be impeached or forced to resign.

In a statement last night, Cox said: "Whether ours shall continue to be a government of laws and not of men is now for Congress and ultimately the American people."

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:09 PM

147. No. That we had a criminal president was clear, and the "show" felt unprecedented.

However, Trump to me is a clear and present danger to the USA.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:09 PM

148. It is different in many ways

Yes, there are a few similarities...

What makes this worse is that in 1972 you had some trust in Congress' ability to rise above as an institution and get the job at hand done. This also limited the damage Nixon could do.

Today, Congress will not rise above the politics - the only hope we have starts in 2018 and finishes in 2020. I'm thinking the best scenario we have is to get enough control of Congress in 2018 not for impeachment, but to limit the damage. Unless Trump dies or goes truly off the deep-end, we'll have Trump/Pence until 2020.

It's a horrible scenario as it presupposes that we'll have free elections again. I suspect Trump will invite and foster an atmosphere which will give the Russians free reign.

L-

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:11 PM

150. No not yet...........

it has to marinate for a while.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:12 PM

151. No!

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:17 PM

153. This is already a much more complex story that involves a lot more characters and

we are no where near the bottom yet. It's very bad and it's going to get a lot worse. The peeling away of supporters is a slow process but I believe it has begun. It will speed up exponentionally.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:17 PM

154. no, because Congressional Republican majority keeps extensive hearings from being held. . .

Watergate was just continuous hearings.

That being said, we could sure use a Mark Felt right about now.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:18 PM

155. I don't know...When the repugs got away with outing Valerie Plame...I was..

so shocked. That would not have happened in the 60' or the 70's.

The republicans are the lowest of lowest and will do whatever to hold their power.
If they think trump is the way to keep the votes coming in (by russia or whatever)
they will defend him to the end.

If not, they will work him out, but not by admitting any fault on his part or theirs.


Tikki

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:20 PM

156. Are you watching MSNBC tonight? John Dean was on and said this is almost exactly like

Watergate. He said they're in heavy cover up mode now. Says he sees & hears it in everything they say, and they lied about EVERYTHING! Iff anybody should know, it Dean!

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Response to napi21 (Reply #156)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:24 PM

159. Yes, on Chris Hayes' show.

John deserves some kind of medal for his service to the country.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:27 PM

160. to some extent yes, but there are several major differences:

first, watergate involved only domestic partisans. the involvement of russia raises this scandal to a whole new level.

second, nixon faced a democratic congress in a less partisan era, so impeachment and removal some measure of justice was plausible enough to force nixon out. in donnie's case, he has a hyper-partisan republican congress who is extremely unlikely to impeach and remove him. they likely would much rather simply distance themselves from donnie, give up the white house but keep their seats in congress by avoiding pissing off their hyper-partisan republican constituents.

third, nixon was quite popular, having won re-election with 49 states(!) the downfall and humiliation from such a lofty height to utter disgrace was the stuff of legend. donnie's reputation is already in the crapper.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:42 PM

164. Still not sure how they will get Trump without tax returns

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:54 PM

165. No

I was an adult at the time of Watergate and followed it closely.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:57 PM

166. no...

We didn't have 24/7 media barrage.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 10:03 PM

167. Yes

But I never thought Nixon could be guilty of treason. A criminal, yes, but not a traitor.

Also, this is moving much faster.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 10:34 PM

168. I was fresh out of HS for Watergate

THIS is +1000 times worse

+
Watergate actually took 3 years

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Response to benld74 (Reply #168)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 02:26 PM

193. Break-in: 06/17/1972; Sat. Night Massacre: 10/08/1973; Resignation: 08/08/1974; Pardon 09/08/1974

Last edited Tue Mar 21, 2017, 06:31 PM - Edit history (1)

At the time, the events seemed to drag on interminably.

In-between, VP Agnew resigned on 10/10/1973 and Gerald Ford was appointed to replace him on 12/06/1073.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 10:59 PM

170. The actual offense is way worse, but nothing will happen

The republicans of that time were often good patriotic Americans. Many had helped LBJ pass the Civil Rights act. Many of them had also fought in WWII. Many would be Democrats today.

The Republicans today? They are huckster. The bottom line of their paymasters is the only thing that matter. That and Jesus.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 11:08 PM

171. Before reading any response I will reply

1. It is much worse that Watergate. Nixon was trying to steal the tapes he thought O'Brien had that would tie him to collusion with the North Vietnamese. The impact would be embarrassing to him but did NOT put the entire Country at risk.

2. Current day republicans could give jack fucking shit about America so they will resist any efforts to take the anti-American, orange piece of shit down.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 11:09 PM

172. Yes, it has a similar "slow moving train wreck" dynamic to it.

I was about 8 but watched TV quite a bit. I remember Nixon resigning very vividly.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Mon Mar 20, 2017, 11:25 PM

173. I only Remember Clinton's impeachment

I was too young for Nixon.

But I remember Ken Starr appointed as special prosecutor and the 3-4 year investigation of Clinton and the impeachment. The Benghazi witchhunt felt just like it.

Overblown, partisan, of no importance to the nation's concerns, a cynical attempt to score political points. That was my take on it.

Hell, Trump was "grabbing pussy" of married women while married. Every Republican alive in 2016 who voted for impeachment voted for Trump. I'm sure of it.

The Clinton impeachment did the opposite of what it should have - it taught me the Republican party was a sham. Party over country in 1996.

The current Republican party is a collection of corrupt sociopaths and hacks, available to the highest bidder, domestic or foreign. The only allegiance is to money-how to hoard it with no regard to human concerns. Most would let Putin invade if they could make some good money from it.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 12:41 AM

175. Trump era is like a Watergate, Cold War intrigue , and a rising third reich era trifecta

If it mirrors anything from nixons time I would like it to be that the VP is out first and replaced before the POTUS goes
Any way no not really
way past and bigger than watergate

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 12:51 AM

176. Worse because lots of moderate republicans then

Willing to do the best for their country.

Congress now is filled with crazies that will probably keep him in to pass all their junk.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 12:55 AM

178. It feels much worse than Watergate to me

I want trump out much more than I ever wanted Nixon out. I also think trump is about a thousand times more dangerous to our country than Nixon was. It also feels like it's moving much faster. Watergate was interminable. It wasn't until John Dean testified that I really believed they'd get him out.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 01:06 AM

181. This isnt like Watergate.

Nixon didn’t tweet, we weren’t all on the internet, and most of us watched on black and white TVs.

Otherwise . . .


.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 01:07 AM

182. Yes and No

I am 77 years old and have always been a news and political junkie. I subscribed to Time magazine for over 40 years, always subscribed to my local newspapers and never missed the TV nightly news. The newspapers, magazines and Tv news reported on the Watergate affair for well over a year. It just seemed like it wouldn't go away. But, it was 1970's style reporting in the daily paper, 5 minutes of daily news on the 3 national news TV shows and weekly reports in Time and Newsweek. The Republican's fought holding investigations for a while, but gave in and did the right thing about Nixon.

Now it is hyper news, on the cable shows, facebook, all over the internet, on twitter, everywhere 24 hours a day. Both situations are bad but so far Trump has not been found guilty of anything. If he is, I think what he is doing is far worse that what Nixon did. He would be a traitor to our country. Nixon was just a petty crook.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 01:27 AM

183. I was in college during Watergate. I must say this seems 1000 times worse.

Nixon never tried to blame the Dems for being broken in to. Nor, to our knowledge, collude & openly defend Russia. Of course, we were still in the Cold War then, but still.
I do believe that they began putting the machine in motion during the Nixon years, tho. Every election since then, they have simply gotten more & more radicalized & pulled the country so far to the right that we might just fall off the cliff.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 01:56 AM

184. No, this is much worse

I was young at that time and also a Republican. When I heard John Dean was going to testify, I was horrified that a Republican would turn on our Republican President. I listened to his whole testimony, and that changed everything for me. He put EVERYTHING in the proper context, and even went so far as to repeat the words of warning he had directly given Richard Nixon. From that time on, I knew Nixon had to go and I was comfortable with it.

In this situation, no one has been able to put any context to this debacle. It seems more like a really bad movie that for some reason one cannot turn off or perhaps a nightmare of a dream that replays every night. There are simply too many players involved. When I reached the point that I realized just how many of our politicians were deeply involved, I had to ask myself would I ever see the day I could once again have confidence in my government. I still have no answer to that question, and I wonder if I ever will.

Sam

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 02:28 AM

185. Ancient Vulcan Proverb;

"Only Nixon could go to China"

(Yes, Spock actually said that in one of the Star Trek movies)

As others have said, Nixon was a paranoid, but he was nothing like Trump.

This will be worse. Much, MUCH worse.

I was 15 when Nixon resigned.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 06:28 AM

186. There are a couple direct connections to Nixon

One is Roy Cohn, who reportedly was a "mentor" to Trump. Cohn goes back Joe McCarthy and the days of HUAC (house unamerican committee). Nixon was a young congressman then and also a "commie hunter".

The other is Roger Stone, who was in Nixon's orbit during Watergate, and is a long established dirty trickster.

Another interesting parallel is that Haldeman and Erhlichman created the world around Nixon as he wanted it to be. Richard Reeves wrote a biography of Nixon, "Alone in the Whitehouse" and I was surprised to learn that Haldeman and Erhlichman's background was advertizing. Think about it that Trump's closest advisor, Bannon, is also from the media/movie world and also is capable of creating the world in which Trump wants to live - one that doesn't neccesarily jibe with reality.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 06:44 AM

187. John Dean, today mentioned that Sean Spicer was doing a Cover-up by diminishing the roles of

Manafort and Flynn. Saying Nixion WH did the same and comparing to Watergate.



Dustin‏ @DustinGiebel

Here's Spicer saying former Trump campaign chairman Manafort played a very limited role and Flynn was a volunteer




Also






https://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/03/28/donald-trump-hires-paul-manafort-to-lead-delegate-effort/?_r=1&mtrref=t.co&gwh=3BED750798F319CCE496E190F207A6EA&gwt=pay



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6:19 pm ET
6:19 pm ET By Alexander Burns and Maggie Haberman

Donald Trump Hires Paul Manafort to Lead Delegate Effort
Photo
Donald J. Trump in Palm Beach, Fla., this month.
Donald J. Trump in Palm Beach, Fla., this month.Credit Eric Thayer for The New York Times

Donald J. Trump, girding for a long battle over presidential delegates and a potential floor fight at the Cleveland convention, has enlisted the veteran Republican strategist Paul J. Manafort to lead his delegate-corralling efforts, according to people briefed on Mr. Trump’s plans.

Mr. Trump confirmed the hire in a brief telephone interview. “Yes,” he said, “it is true.”

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 10:11 AM

190. Watergate took two years to develop and so yes there are similarities

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 10:42 AM

191. I was never scared during Watergate, just angry.

What's going on in our country right now is scaring the hell out of me! Not exaggerating.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 11:04 AM

192. The grand jury was key

Last night on MSNBC John Dean was asked about obstruction of justice. He said that only occurs after there's a grand jury investigating a possible crime. That's what happened in Watergate, a GJ was convened after the Watergate burglars were caught. Then the GJ moved on to investigating the cover up and the rest is history.

As of now, there's no crime for a GJ to be empaneled to investigate. But that might be about to change if the WaPo story about Manafort laundering money via Belize is true. That's something a DA could bring to a GJ. Although not directly tied to Trump, Manafort is. It possible a GJ could indict Manafort, then move on to investigating anything else GJ testimony might reveal.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 02:46 PM

194. Big difference: Democrats controlled the House and Senate in 1974

They started with a built in advantage in terms of holding hearings and garnering votes.
Here the Repubs hold the advantage in the House and Senate.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 03:41 PM

195. The only question

is not only when, but who will sing first...

There are so many canaries associated with this administration...

Concern that some might accidentally die of heart-attacks (Russian style)....

If Orange man is put under oath - he will lie because that is all he knows...

I do believe that there was/and is collusion with the Russians - there are too many members of this administration with ties to Russia...

The Russian's have too much information on most of them - and they can and will leak that information when it is to their advantage...

Money laundering... there are too many illegal issues, already exposed, being exposed, or waiting to be exposed....

People like Cage...Stone... Flynn...Sessions...Rudy.... better lawyer up, and even more important - don't catch a flight on small planes....

The GOP will flip on the Orange man once they've got their tax cuts...and screwed the rest of us as much as they can...

Watergate, Watergate was nothing compared to this mess....

And worse of all...if it is proven that there was Collusion ... what happens next, Pence can't become president because he is tainted by the actions of his leader.....So, does that give us Ryan?....

Plus, where does brother (Senator) Mitch fit in this mess...he was the one that decided that the information about Trump couldn't be shared with the American people....

Watergate was nothing as we look at this mess....with Watergate we in theory knew what the outcome would be... now, we are in unchartered lands....and sadly, how many in the COP congress benefited from the Russian involvement...?

Finally, Donald will sing like a bird....lying whenever possible...but he will sing...

I just hope that like Watergate, someone will do the necessary things to ensure that Donald can't pull the nuclear trigger....like they did with Nixon....

And back in the day, GOP put Country above party....today, the GOP (and some of their voters) put party above Country....

My opinion....

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Tue Mar 21, 2017, 03:43 PM

196. I set my monitor to B&W so it looks more authentic.

I want to say it's just like Watergate, except for that the GOP doesn't care in the slightest. But in they, the criminality would not be tolerated and both sides of the aisle went after Nixon. Now it appears to be purely partisan.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Wed Mar 22, 2017, 06:29 PM

197. Question..to anyone reading this...did Nunes just create a situation like ..Saturday Night Massacre?

By running to Trump...before even his own committee..is that it?

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