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Sat Mar 18, 2017, 06:38 AM

My family and I are in Holland on a visit

Last night we ate dinner at a local Indian restaurant. A Dutchman and his wife sat at the next table. Small talk ensued and, once it was determined that we were Americans, he asked us the question seemingly on every European's mind these days: "What do you think of Trump?" When my family, in unison, said that he was a blight on everything the USA stands for, he applauded and added that everyone he knows wonders how we blundered into a Trump presidency.

In a nutshell, I explained that, unlike the Dutch, some Americans wish to interpret our Constitution as enabling individual freedoms and liberties, but not societal freedoms and liberties. Whereas the Dutch may have realized long ago that "united we stand, divided we fall", Americans are resistant to that ideal. It's a pity, because the deprivation of a safety net (due to cost) leads to far higher costs to society. The Dutchman pointed out that no one in Holland needs to fear the "bottom falling out", because programs exist to guarantee health care, housing, food, and basically all the essentials of life.

Why can't we look out for each other in the USA? Why do the so-called "patriots" insist that America is an "every man and woman for themselves" society when a compassionate government leads to happiness, pride and inclusion?

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Arrow 69 replies Author Time Post
Reply My family and I are in Holland on a visit (Original post)
Mr. Ected Mar 2017 OP
lisa58 Mar 2017 #1
jaxind Mar 2017 #2
Mr. Ected Mar 2017 #9
Silver Gaia Mar 2017 #15
democratisphere Mar 2017 #3
KingCharlemagne Mar 2017 #20
democratisphere Mar 2017 #32
KingCharlemagne Mar 2017 #33
democratisphere Mar 2017 #37
KingCharlemagne Mar 2017 #38
malchickiwick Mar 2017 #63
KingCharlemagne Mar 2017 #66
Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2017 #53
KingCharlemagne Mar 2017 #67
Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2017 #69
madokie Mar 2017 #4
Cha Mar 2017 #5
Mr. Ected Mar 2017 #10
Cha Mar 2017 #12
Scarsdale Mar 2017 #6
smirkymonkey Mar 2017 #7
Mr. Ected Mar 2017 #11
smirkymonkey Mar 2017 #14
KingCharlemagne Mar 2017 #21
GulfCoast66 Mar 2017 #26
KingCharlemagne Mar 2017 #30
GulfCoast66 Mar 2017 #35
KingCharlemagne Mar 2017 #36
GulfCoast66 Mar 2017 #40
Cha Mar 2017 #13
lies Mar 2017 #8
Martin Eden Mar 2017 #16
lies Mar 2017 #18
Martin Eden Mar 2017 #42
lies Mar 2017 #44
RKP5637 Mar 2017 #29
moondust Mar 2017 #17
dembotoz Mar 2017 #34
bekkilyn Mar 2017 #19
spooky3 Mar 2017 #22
barbtries Mar 2017 #23
sharedvalues Mar 2017 #24
MrPurple Mar 2017 #55
a la izquierda Mar 2017 #25
GulfCoast66 Mar 2017 #27
lunasun Mar 2017 #28
PatrickforO Mar 2017 #47
roamer65 Mar 2017 #31
BSdetect Mar 2017 #39
CrispyQ Mar 2017 #41
alwaysinflux Mar 2017 #43
Hamlette Mar 2017 #45
pangaia Mar 2017 #56
Hamlette Mar 2017 #61
pangaia Mar 2017 #62
PatrickforO Mar 2017 #46
DFW Mar 2017 #48
Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2017 #49
Mr. Ected Mar 2017 #64
Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2017 #68
SunSeeker Mar 2017 #50
SummerSnow Mar 2017 #51
singed.dude Mar 2017 #52
Ilsa Mar 2017 #54
MrScorpio Mar 2017 #57
zentrum Mar 2017 #58
Kablooie Mar 2017 #59
pansypoo53219 Mar 2017 #60
Name removed Mar 2017 #65

Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 06:49 AM

1. I don't know...but it's so sad

My husband has lived in 3 different countries and this election is killing him. My guess is if this goes the way the Trumpsters are planning- we'll be leaving...

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 06:50 AM

2. Just Curious

Just Curious...were you there during their recent elections? What did the couple think about the results of their election? They must have been happy with their results!

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Response to jaxind (Reply #2)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 07:29 AM

9. Yes, we were here on election day

Considering the gravity of the decisions that were being made that day, and the overwhelming turnout at the polls, you would never have known it. Life as usual in the Netherlands.

Our host had told us earlier that he didn't believe that the Dutch would opt for the far-right path, in spite of the fact that flames had been fanned. He said he had faith in his people to do the right thing. And he was proven correct.

I suspect that their coalition government would have dampened some of the impact, had Wilders carried the day. I also believe that America's experience with Trump was enough for many Dutch to pull their support from the PVV.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Reply #9)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 08:18 AM

15. I know how that feels. I had faith in my people to do the right thing, too.

But, sadly, I was proven wrong. It doesn't matter how much faith you have if the election is being interfered with by traitors, foreign elements, and cheaters.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 06:51 AM

3. We are the Un-United States of insatiable greed and unfortunately

the greedmongers retain most of the power now. Interesting how the so-called patriots have now become supporters and backers of the vile Russian and Putin communists.

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Response to democratisphere (Reply #3)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 08:32 AM

20. You damage you thesis by referring to the "Russian and Putin communists." Putin and

 

the Russian Federation are capitalists and have been since 1990.

FWIW, all Communists I know implacably oppose Trump, your red-baiting notwithstanding.

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #20)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 09:48 AM

32. Many Russians and Putin act like former communists.

But you are right, modern day capitalism is ALL for ONE, and NONE for ALL.

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Response to democratisphere (Reply #32)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 09:53 AM

33. Sigh They do NOT act like former communists (or current communists). The

 

Last edited Sun Mar 19, 2017, 08:14 AM - Edit history (1)

USSR outlawed discrimination based on sexual orientation, for example. (For a country based on the principles of 'scientific socialism,' the USSR remained wedded to the pseudo-scientific notion that sexual orientation was a matter of personal choice for far too long, in my opinion.) But the point is, the USSR as a country outlawed discrimination based on sexual orientation. I could give you many other examples, but I can't see what the point would be.

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #33)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 10:21 AM

37. Sure seems like Cold War 2.0 to me; Russians and Putin hacking everything

including Yahoo, elections and citizens of the USA. I hardly think many Russians and Putin ever changed their strips.

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Response to democratisphere (Reply #37)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 10:24 AM

38. This Cold War v 2.0 to which you allude is happening between capitalist-imperialist

 

states. The USSR had much better things to do, like supporting Vietnamese liberation or African liberation or liberation movements worldwide. That was after defeating Naziism and putting the first man and first woman into space.

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #38)

Sun Mar 19, 2017, 02:28 AM

63. And don't forget starving 10 million Ukrainians to death...

Who were those thousands that Charlemagne gave the option of Christian baptism or death? Saxons, I want to say. You have odd heroes: Stalin and Charlemagne -- pioneers of despotism both.

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Response to malchickiwick (Reply #63)

Sun Mar 19, 2017, 06:35 AM

66. Funny how we NEVER hear about how many Americans died of starvation

 

during the Great Depression. Hmm, wonder why.

Were it not for Stalin, you and your progeny would be Sieg Heiling and goose stepping.

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #33)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 07:47 PM

53. I totally get what you're saying.

The theoretical idea of communism is a beautiful thing. I understand your rejection to calling Putin a communist, because he most certainly is not (except his fondness for Bolshevik-style authoritarianism). In the USSR's case, neither was Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, or anyone that followed. The October Revolution was almost dead on arrival when the Bolsheviks gerry-mannered the Soviets, and suppressed those Soviets that couldn't be co-opted by the party. Lenin, in his reactionary zeal, proclaimed, "All power to the Soviets!" ...while he was undermining or outright destroying them. He put down workers' rebellions, trade unionists, syndicalists, anarchists, socialists (even the equally reactionary Left SRs (Socialist Revolutionaries), the Right SRs, the Left Opposition, Council Communists - anyone that got in the way of Bolshevik power. Lenin, the Marxist, wasn't even following Marx, who had his flaws about the theory of revolution (proving the anarchist, Bakunin, correct some fifty years earlier during the First International)! Even Marx amended his views somewhat on the use of the State and Vanguard Party to foment a revolution, when he saw the events that transpired with the Paris and Lyon Communes - an organic workers uprising that took over the factories and proved an anarchist revolution and society was possible without having used the machinations of the State, or some elite Vanguard to take the lead. It was a successful revolutionary communist society governed by and for the workers/people.

Sadly, even though the beginning stages showed great promise with workers overthrowing their bosses, establishing communes, socialists, communists overthrowing the government and the bourgeoisie, the nascent revolution was destroyed by the Bolsheviks and their allies. Bolshevism did more to destroy communism than the White Armies, and eventually the West ever could have.

I do get your point, nonetheless.

*I use the term Bolshevism because until then the term communism was an umbrella term that captured most of the left-wing labor movement; the Marxists, anarchists, trade unionists, etc. Marx, having borrowed heavily from the scientific-socialism work by the anarchist, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon (System of Economic Contradictions), formulated his own scientific socialism with his work, The Communist Manifesto. The term was not his, however. The Bolsheviks, seizing a propaganda victory, employed the use to their "Revolution" and Party, which now is forever tied with the abomination that was the Soviet Union, no matter how potentially historically positive for the international labor movement (and its associated liberty movements) the initial Revolution was. Oh, what could have been.

We, at least, have an important historical lesson to learn from.

**My post may seem irrelevant and overly polemical in favor of anarchist philosophy, but the opening thread asks why we can't have a more cooperative society, and I believe that one day, a society built on anarchist principles would be a just and cooperative type of society.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Reply #53)

Sun Mar 19, 2017, 08:25 AM

67. Without commenting on your specific claims, I will simply note

 

that I disagree with you in your assessment of Lenin. He did an enormous amount to advance our understanding of Marxist theory and, with his notion of a 'Vanguard' party to lead the proletariat, provided a significant addition to Marxist theory. In my opinion, Lenin is a great Communist, certainly equal in stature to Fidel, Ho and Mao.

I would also note that 'anarchism' and 'communism' are essentially one and the same, in that communism -- with its ultimate withering away of the state - arrives after a transitional period of socialism wherein all forms of oppression of and discrimination against workers are overcome (to paraphrase John Smith).

If you get a chance, read Smith's sobering interview in Truth-Out: http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/39786-globalization-is-just-a-contemporary-word-for-financial-colonialism

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #67)

Sun Mar 19, 2017, 12:22 PM

69. Oh, I agree that anarchism and communism are the same.

A classless, stateless society. Anarchism doesn't require the transitory withering away of the state as in Marxist theory. We believe that capitalism and the State are intertwined, and you can't destroy one without the other.

Thanks for hearing me out, comrade.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 06:56 AM

4. This is how my family does it

We're all old, youngest is 65 and oldest is 85, 8 of us still plodding along

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 06:57 AM

5. the paul slimey ryans and the creepy greedy vicious monster trumps

want to get free everything but they don't want to give a hand to those who make an honest living.

I'm so happy for the Dutch.. and very glad you and your Family are able to enjoy their country and hospitality, Mr. Ected

"..when a compassionate government leads to happiness, pride and inclusion?"

We would have had that again with Hillary and they couldn't let that happen.

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Response to Cha (Reply #5)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 07:30 AM

10. You are always so kind and insightful, Cha

Thank you for being a consistently bright influence.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Reply #10)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 07:34 AM

12. Thank you, Mr. Ected.. you luckies!

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 07:09 AM

6. Education?

Most other countries value education. Their schools seem to be funded better. Could this be the answer? Universal healthcare should be implemented in this country. The politicians want the best - for themselves. We can help pay for that. When it comes to the rest of us - oh well.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 07:10 AM

7. Thank you for sharing your story.

 

I love hearing about what people in other countries are thinking. The Dutch are such lovely people - I really enjoyed my stay there. Where in the Netherlands are you? If you get a chance you should try some excellent Indonesian food!

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #7)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 07:33 AM

11. We're staying in Delft, home of Vermeer and birthplace of my youngest son!

The cuisine here is varied and delicious. Yesterday was Indonesian for lunch, Indian for dinner. Street food is also a fun diversion.

Tonight, our last night in Europe, we will eat a traditional Dutch stamppot and probably shed a few tears. We love it here.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Reply #11)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 07:40 AM

14. I must say I'm envious! I love to hear about other people's travels.

 

I have traveled quite a bit myself, but now that I am paying off a hefty student loan I don't really have the money anymore so I have to live vicariously. So I appreciate stories like yours! Enjoy the rest of your stay and have a safe trip back!

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Response to Mr. Ected (Reply #11)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 08:37 AM

21. Not to rain on your parade, but the Dutch have much to answer for for their

 

treatment of the Indonesian people in what used to be called the Dutch East Indies. Their crimes are no worse than those of the other European imperial powers (and arguably less severe than those of their neighbor Belgium) but there has never been a reckoning.

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #21)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 09:11 AM

26. The Dutch East Indies dissolved in 1942

So perhaps the Dutch over 80 or so have something to answer for. But for people my age or younger, not so much.

They have built an open and surprisingly tolerant society and just rejected the call of nationalism. I wish we had done the same.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #26)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 09:31 AM

30. Yeah, I get your point (I think). Here's a thought experiment for you: how much

 

current Dutch prosperity is built upon labor and resources stolen from indigenous Indonesian people? As Faulkner once said, "The past isn't dead. It isn't even past" (speaking of another region that was host to a great crime).

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #30)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 10:11 AM

35. I am from that other region you mention

And I believe we all as Americans have an obligation to ensure everyone of us have equal opportunities. Unfortunately we have falling far short of that goal. And seem to be heading in the wrong direction.

But I do not have anything to answer for concerning the sins of my ancestors anymore than the current Dutch do for their ancestors.

I imagine we probably agree on the issues, maybe disagree on the semantics of it.

Have a nice weekend.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #35)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 10:14 AM

36. I'll leave you to your weekend with a quote from the great French writer Honore

 

de Balzac:

Behind every great fortune lies a great crime.

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #36)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 10:39 AM

40. In my family's case...

It would be 'poverty was the result of their many crimes'

But I certainly get your point.

Have a nice day

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #7)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 07:35 AM

13. I know, me too, smirky.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 07:23 AM

8. As a US expat

 

I can tell you that Europe is wildly unimpressed AND feels held hostage with Brexit and Trump.

This is actually causing a bit of EU/European pride to emerge, which is a new thing for me to see... and I've been here for almost 13 years.

Anyway, yes, total disaster for America, abroad, as people are really starting to think the US era is over... and are trying to figure out better alternatives, while not pissing off Trump and his gang on lunatics.

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Response to lies (Reply #8)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 08:19 AM

16. The US era of global leadership has certainly been hurt by GW and now Trump

But as long as the US has a large economic and military impact we can't be ignored.

The optimism of my youth has been dealt some severe blows. I'll turn 60 later this year. I thought we would be in a much better place than this.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #16)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 08:26 AM

18. The thing is....

 

The rest of the world has put up with disastrous US policies for decades... and has been looking for alternatives for decades...

Now that the US is quickly making itself irrelevant from a policy point of view, and going out of it's way to destabilise the UN, EU, Asia, this search for a better alternative is reaching a fever pitch.

Right now, in a recent poll, 20% MORE Irish citizens DON'T want the US President to visit, and if he does he'll be met by FIERCE protests. The same is true in most European countries.

And this - with us or against us - is making a lot more "against us" than I've ever ever seen.

At some point - we're only a few months in - countries are going to - because of the will of voters - stand up properly to the US DESPITE the economic impact.

Europe VERY MUCH feels that much of it's economic and political uncertainty is down to US foreign policy. All those refugees? That's thanks to the US.

Brexit?

US foreign policy.

And on and on.

This is going to matter more than economics soon enough. It won't erase economics, but it'll matter more to the electorate here.

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Response to lies (Reply #18)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 04:10 PM

42. Without a doubt, Europe has lost confidence in the US as "leader" of the Free World

I'm sure a much higher percentage of Europeans see dRumpf as a dangerous buffoon than Amurkins.

That doesn't diminish our economic and military impact, until both start imploding from gross mismanagement.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #42)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 04:26 PM

44. Wellll

 

The economic impact will be damaged by Trump himself. Isolationism etc.

And of course the military power is at least partially made "real" by our cooperation within NATO and coalitions. As that cooperation is damaged or limited by Trump et al our military might becomes less meaningful.

On the plus side Europe will probably be much less likely to join collations to attack other countries e. g. Iraq, Libya, etc.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #16)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 09:31 AM

29. I've been quite disappointed in the US in my later years. I had thought the US would be much

different by now. And now, we are going backwards. Rather than being leaders we are becoming followers other than for the threat posed by our military with our off-balance president. Rather than investing in education and creating the environment that will lead to a better future for all, we are now turning to a caveman mentality.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 08:24 AM

17. Melting pot vs. homogeneous populations.

The U.S. has never been one big "extended family" like the Euro countries were (before migration became common). From the beginning the U.S. has instead been largely about groups and individuals living within the same borders but pitted against and exploiting each other: slavery, Indian wars, groups of immigrants like the Irish, now Muslims, etc. Some politicians have exploited the differences to gain and hold power by continuing to pit groups and individuals against each other and exploiting people's fear, hatred, and superiority complexes rather than embracing the rich diversity; divide and conquer for profit and power. Liberté, égalité, fraternité? Forget it.



(Must be nice to be in Holland! )

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Response to moondust (Reply #17)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 09:53 AM

34. Well stated... As in I agree

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 08:29 AM

19. Because they're not patriots and they have no moral conscience (nt)

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 08:41 AM

22. A) gerrymandering B) electoral college C) Citizens United

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 08:49 AM

23. we can.

we must rise, resist, and bring the power of the people to bear on the government. i see no other way. get active. resist.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 09:01 AM

24. IT'S THE MEDIA

Conservative media is why we have Trump.

Right-wing radio, Fox, NY Post, Breitbart, etc have been engaged in a disinformation campaign that doesn't exist on the left.

Those media outlets lie and change the way Americans think.
Please explain this to non-Americans. People in the UK often understand if you bring up Murdoch.

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #24)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 07:55 PM

55. This - and all the internet social media permutations

People are actively misinformed/propagandized and there's little prospect for that changing. The Orwellian topper is that we have the President claiming that the actual fact checked, fact based media should be discounted. It's a demagogue's fantasyland.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 09:09 AM

25. I was just in Bolivia.

People, from my hosts to cab drivers, were intensely curious about Trump, and this in he middle of protests about Evo Morales.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 09:14 AM

27. Too many white Americans

Refuse to consider anyone of color their equal not to mention their fellow countrymen.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 09:28 AM

28. The Dutch avoided a far rightie recently but Id be interested to know if they think it will continue

through Europe as both France and Germany have elections this year in which far-right candidates and parties are hoping to get in.

Lets hope RWs lose everywhere they try in in Europe. Hopefully the Dutch may be the first ones of a backlash beginning to emerge against the radical right there.

Enjoy Holland
Tulip time yet ?

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Response to lunasun (Reply #28)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 05:52 PM

47. I think that once Trump, who is highly visible throughout the world,

keeps screwing up bigtime and doing stupid, dangerous stuff, and people around the world see what those policies actually do, we won't have so many right wing ideologues.

But then, I've been called a unicorn...

?v=1474031444

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 09:38 AM

31. Generally...the European attitude is to lend a "helping hand".

The American attitude is generally to give the "back hand".

Sad, but true.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 10:27 AM

39. Re that last question

Why can't we look out for each other in the USA? Why do the so-called "patriots" insist that America is an "every man and woman for themselves" society when a compassionate government leads to happiness, pride and inclusion?

The myths pomoted by movies re cowboys being independent and roaming free etc Guns are a right to settle any dispute seems to be the message.

All those films about tough guys like Eastwood, Bronson and so forth. Many featuring "others" as threats.

All the propaganda about unions and socialism.

Admiration of greed and corrupt "successful" types.

Hope of winning the lottery.

Monopoly capitalism has its grip on information real tight now.




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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 03:39 PM

41. Here's the response you get in America:



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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 04:21 PM

43. They undermined it in the pledge of allegiance

By splitting up these two lines:

One nation,
indivisible

Before 1954:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

After:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 05:15 PM

45. as sad as this is to say, Europe is not safe from nut cases

Denmark just survived that awful right wing racist and elections later this year in Germany and France also have right wing nut cases challenging the more temperate among us.

My potential silver lining is that Europe sees how awful Trump is and rejects similar thinking people in their elections. The problem with that thinking is how long can we stave off these people from taking over the civilized world?

They did not learn the lesson of W for long. He trashed the economy and started an unnecessary war costing us $3 trillion. Americans seemed to wake up a few years and were against wars etc but they are right back at it, supporting Trumps increase in the defense budget and cuts everywhere else.

There are days when I think we will survive Trump and be okay, then there are days when I think the world is going to hell and we won't see light again in my life time.

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Response to Hamlette (Reply #45)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 08:17 PM

56. Don't you perhaps mean The Netherlands just escaped?

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Response to pangaia (Reply #56)

Sun Mar 19, 2017, 01:16 AM

61. ah shit, what's the difference :)

actually, I know the difference, and I was wrong. Dutch, Danish....all the same to me.

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Response to Hamlette (Reply #61)

Sun Mar 19, 2017, 02:00 AM

62. All true..



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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 05:46 PM

46. ...Why do the so-called patriots insist that America is an 'every man and woman for themselves'

society?

I trace it all back to the Powell memo to the US Chamber of Commerce in 1971, followed by the 1987 death (thanks Reagan!) of the Fairness Doctrine. Basically, these things helped big corporations create a massive, sophisticated and well-funded network of right wing propaganda outlets that have, in effect, brainwashed a sizeable number of Americans.

Because I'll tell you - back in 08 when the bottom fell out, the first thing Jamie Diamon and the rest of the Wall Street Lizards did was seek a bailout from the government.

This business of being rugged individualists having to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, by golly, is nothing more than corporate bullshit.

Or, more precisely, corporate propaganda designed to trick us into letting go of the safety nets our parents, grandparents and great grandparents bled for so that money can be funnelled into corporate profits. It is a raping of our treasury.

This is why I always ask why we can't use OUR tax dollars that WE pay in to OUR government, which is supposedly of, by and for US, the PEOPLE, for stuff that actually benefits US, like Single Payer healthcare, as opposed to bullshit like the F35 fighter which STILL can't fly. Or the GIANT domestic spying building the NSA has in Utah. And why do we need an NSA when we have a CIA, an FBI, a DEA and an ATF? Don't you think that's TOO many cops? How does that make our lives better?

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 06:00 PM

48. You should have asked the Dutch family how many political parties there are in Holland

Holland is anything BUT "united we stand, divided we fall." Every government there has to scramble for votes to form a coalition with several partner small parties because no party EVER gets a majority. It's the reason post-war Germany put a 5% hurdle for a party to gain representation in any local or national parliament. The insane fractiousness of the Weimarer Republik paved the way for the NSDAP ("Nazi" party to claim power in 1933, and the Germans figured once was enough of that.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 06:18 PM

49. You'll find this interesting:

The anarchist, Prince Peter Kropotkin, in 1903 studied the animal kingdom inter- and intra-species (including humans) cooperation vs competition, essentially building on Darwin. He came up with Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution (available for free online).

His conclusion was that societies that cooperated tended to survive over societies that competed.

Wiki:

Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution is a 1902 essay collection by Russian anarchist philosopher Peter Kropotkin. The essays, initially published in the English periodical The Nineteenth Century between 1890 and 1896, explore the role of mutually-beneficial cooperation and reciprocity (or "mutual aid" in the animal kingdom and human societies both past and present. It is an argument against the competition-centred theories of so-called social Darwinism, as well as the romantic depictions of cooperation presented by writers such as Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who argued it was motivated by universal love rather than self-interest. Mutual Aid is considered a fundamental text in anarchist communism, presenting a scientific basis for communism alternative to the historical materialism of the Marxists. Many biologists also consider it an important catalyst in the scientific study of cooperation.

Daniel P. Todes, in his account of Russian naturalism in the 19th century, concludes that Kropotkin’s work "cannot be dismissed as the idiosyncratic product of an anarchist dabbling in biology" and that his views "were but one expression of a broad current in Russian evolutionary thought that pre-dated, indeed encouraged, his work on the subject and was by no means confined to leftist thinkers."[1]

Kropotkin pointed out the distinction between the direct struggle among individuals for limited resources (generally called competition) and the more metaphorical struggle between organisms and the environment (tending to be cooperative). He therefore did not deny the competitive form of struggle, but argued that the cooperative counterpart has been underemphasized: "There is an immense amount of warfare and extermination going on amidst various species; there is, at the same time, as much, or perhaps even more, of mutual support, mutual aid, and mutual defense...Sociability is as much a law of nature as mutual struggle."[2]

As a description of biology, Kropotkin's work has been confirmed by recent research. Stephen Jay Gould admired Kropotkin's observations, noting that cooperation, if it increases individual survival, is not ruled out by natural selection, and is in fact encouraged.[3] Modern biology confirms Kropotkin's observations in two ways. When different species appear to aid each other, it is a case of mutualism. When individuals within a species aid each other, it is a case of altruism in animals, including kin selection and reciprocal altruism. Douglas H. Boucher places Kropotkin's book as a precursor to the development of mutualism as a theory.[4]


It's a fascinating read, and should be shared as much as possible.

The society is nothing without the individual, however, the individual is nothing without society.

It's this sort of interconnectedness between the individual and society that makes up the whole. You cannot damage one part without damaging the other.

This is what the reactionaries do not get. They can't think outside of their immediate body or tribe. Reactionary thinking is incapable of thinking of the whole except as a tool for fascism. It doesn't matter if you are a Buckley uber-capitalist or a Leninist Bolshevik. Both reactionary foundations limit the perception of the whole to the individuals (make no mistake, the Leninists see the same individualist few who would be masters of the economy, just as the Buckley capitalists, who would use society for their fascist ends). In both, you have the managerial class that would govern on behalf of the masses (mixing political authority with economic authority). One is a dictatorship of the proletariat, the other, a dictatorship of the capitalists. Words mean nothing here, because guess who owned and dictated? The same people! Just refer to Right-Wing Authoritarianism for more information. The term is not a political term here as it explains the American Libertarians just as much as it explains the Communist Party Apparatchiks - subservience to authority.

Much editing due to making this post on my phone, apologies for any errors or incoherence.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Reply #49)

Sun Mar 19, 2017, 02:38 AM

64. Thank you for the time and effort to post this.

It's fascinating reading and addresses my point quite directly.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Reply #64)

Sun Mar 19, 2017, 12:17 PM

68. Thank you. I'm glad to share.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 06:31 PM

50. America's unique view of poverty as a moral failing goes back to the pilgrims.

Since the days of the pioneers, we have worshiped individual achievement over community service. Anyone who has not achieved financial success or is mired in poverty is seen as lacking moral character. This is further compounded by the virulent racism in this country that results in people of color disproportionately making up the ranks of the poor. Hence, America sees the poor as people who brought their poverty on themselves and deserve their fate. America has always shamed and punished the poor, like all the calls for drug testing of food stamp recipients.

In a nutshell, America hates the poor.

It took me a while to accept this odious fact, but it is the only thing that explains our national priorities.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 06:35 PM

51. I have 2 cousins who live in Holland. They said they will never come back to America

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 07:32 PM

52. Why can't we look out for each other in the USA? Here's why:

1. Prevailing frontier mentality: there is still this attitude left over from the people who arrived in America and ventured westward. This is a frontier. Every man for himself. You must be self-sufficient.

2. Rich people don't want to pay the taxes needed to provide health care, housing, food, etc. They bought off the politicians who enact legislation to prevent "the common good".

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 07:53 PM

54. Please tell them (next time) that more of us

Voted for other candidates by 10,000,000+ votes. Drump won with an EC surgical strike.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 08:44 PM

57. I know what you mean.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 09:50 PM

58. Love Holland and felt..

...so sane, calm and happy there. It's put together very intelligently.

But I did see some homeless people, and street beggars, which surprised me very much in terms of the safety net.
No camp cities or homeless on every large automobile entrance as you see here, but to see one every day in the larger city centers hard to explain.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sat Mar 18, 2017, 11:34 PM

59. There's so much hatred that many actually *want* others to suffer and die.

They know how damaging these policies are to others and hope that they will destroy the populations they hate.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

Sun Mar 19, 2017, 01:05 AM

60. yeah. i know danish people AND i have been there twice. they are HAPPY.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Original post)

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