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Wed Mar 8, 2017, 08:25 PM

The "extreme left" didn't give us Trump. The path to hell was paved by

Last edited Fri Mar 10, 2017, 04:49 PM - Edit history (3)

... the Democratic leadership's refusal to do their duty and defend the Constitution they swore to uphold by fighting, win or lose, for:

1. Impeachment of Reagan for Iran-Contra.
2. Prosecution of Bush Sr. when the extent of his role in Iran contra was exposed.
3. An objection to the unlawfully appointed FL electors on Jan 6, 2001, as was their duty under the electoral count act.
4. Impeachment of Bush/Cheney for torture.

Too many of them failed to protect the constitution from Alito when they refused to join a winning filibuster that would actually have stopped him, and instead cast their useless No votes on the floor. Thinking things like "I opposed Alito, even tho I refused to do the one thing guaranteed to stop him" is the sort of thinking that has earned them their wimpy reputation.

As if their failure to stand and fight for our founding principles weren't devastating enough, they have stubbornly adhered to a policy of preemptive surrender on the proposed solutions they claim to support (The "Can't Win, So Don't Fight" policy.)

They give lip service to universal health care, progressive tax reform, ending mass incarceration, consumer protections, financial system protections, and on and on, but the leadership of our party almost NEVER actually takes concrete action. Over, and over, and over again they have refused to "whip up" support for proposals and bills that would make a real difference. The ONLY way to make a case to the American people for real change is to actually MAKE THE CASE.

Making a case for getting a slice of bread does not win hearts and minds over to the idea that we need, and can get, the whole loaf. Making the case for getting a slice does not demonstrate strength and leadership. It says "We are too weak to do the things that will make a REAL difference in your lives." Not a stirring message.

Fighting, win or lose, is how you make things happen. It's how you demonstrate the strength the electorate craves. Chances of "winning" today are irrelevant. Fighting now makes it possible to win down the line.

Until the Democratic leadership really "gets" this, our downward spiral will continue.

They could learn something from the right-wingnuts who unceasingly advocate for things long considered DOA. (Look at how many of those formerly DOA ideas are on the verge of becoming reality.) The Democratic leadership has not provided an effective counterpoint to the relentless corporatist/reactionary drum beat for decades.

The bottom line: The party leadership's immoral refusal to stand and fight for the Constitution coupled with their cowardly policy of preemptive surrender paved the road to our current hell.

The post asserting that the "extreme left gave us Nixon, Bush and now Trump" couldn't be more wrong. The REAL problem is the leadership's irrational phobia that they will look "too extreme" if they actually fight for meaningful change. Promoting the wrongheaded notion that the "extreme left" is the problem feeds their phobia. If you want to turn things around challenge their irrational fear. Help them overcome their phobia and step up.

______________________________-
On Edit: For those who see this as "bashing" and would call me a "Democrat hater," or who think I am being an apologist for the voters who opted out, perhaps the following posts will help you recognize what I am actually saying: Posts #449 and #274.

An example of what I mean by "driving the policy debate": Post #399

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Response to pat_k (Original post)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 08:29 PM

1. What 'extreme left?'

Who would that actually be?

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Response to dchill (Reply #1)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:18 PM

111. The OP is Wrong.. Jill Stein spoiled the 2016 election for Hillary Clinton Gave us trump

Jill Stein's voters in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin helped Donald Trump win the White House

snip//

For those who worried that insufficient liberal support for Hillary Clinton would wind up electing Donald Trump, you were right.

According to a tweet from Cook Political Report’s Dave Wasserman on Thursday, the margin of difference separating the president-elect from his Democratic opponent Hillary Clinton in the three “Blue Wall” states — Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan — was less than the total number of votes received by Green Party nominee Jill Stein in each of those states:

More..
http://www.salon.com/2016/12/02/jill-stein-spoiled-the-2016-election-for-hillary-clinton/


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Response to Cha (Reply #111)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:27 PM

116. What makes you think that those Jill Stein voters

would have voted for Clinton?

A number of those voters would have been for Stein or anyone regardless...heck, Nader got 38,000 votes in MI, I believe, in 2008.

And what of all of the votes that Gary Johnson received?

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Response to Chitown Kev (Reply #116)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:36 PM

119. I stand by the article.. "Jill Stein spoiled the 2016 election for Hillary Clinton "

and the Planet.

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Response to Cha (Reply #119)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:50 AM

173. That comes with the assumption that Hillary would have received the votes

that went to Stein had Stein not been in the running...and I disagree with the assumption...Clinton may have received SOME of those votes but not all of them...or even most of Stein's votes, IMHO

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Response to Chitown Kev (Reply #173)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:55 AM

176. It's doesn't matter.. if they voted or stayed home.. they still fucked it up.

ETA.. and if stein hadn't LIED in the first place we wouldn't be having this conversation.

If she hadn't said it doesn't matter if you're in a swing state.. don't vote for Hillary.

Like good little soldiers they followed the pied piper.

stein is a putinesque ratfucker.

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Response to Cha (Reply #176)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:08 AM

180. I simply don't like the idea

that a Stein voter "owed" their vote to Hillary Clinton when the majority of those votes would not have been won under ANY circumstance.

Personally, I think the OP here is rather stupid.

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Response to Chitown Kev (Reply #180)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:10 AM

181. Didn't say they "owed" anything. Apparently not even the Planet..

Saying if stein weren't such a fucking Liar and cared about our Country We might have Won instead of Russia.

ETA... "Apparently not even the Planet.."

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Response to Cha (Reply #181)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:15 AM

183. 15% of voters nationwide

liked neither Hillary nor Trump...the majority of those voters broke for Trump.

There are many levels where this thing crashed on Hillary...you name one out of many factors.

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Response to Chitown Kev (Reply #183)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:46 AM

191. How Jill Stein and Donald Trump became allies of Vladimir Putin



snip//

Casey Michel writes: Last December, at a gala honoring the 10th anniversary of the Russian propaganda channel RT, Russian President Vladimir Putin nestled himself between a pair of visitors at the head table. To the president’s right: A former head of the US’s Defense Intelligence Agency, known best for his hard-right views on Islam, which he would later compare to “cancer.” And to Putin’s left: The soon-to-be Green Party nominee for the White House, whose presidential debate would be carried on, of all things, RT.

The two – Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn, an adviser to Republican nominee Donald Trump, and Jill Stein, the presidential nominee from the Green Party – chummed with Putin throughout the evening, later joined at the table by RT (formerly Russia Today) head Margarita Simonyan and then-Chief of Staff Sergei Ivanov. Soon, Putin took the dais, running through rote commentary on RT’s accomplishments. When he finished, applause rang. Stein shook his hand. Flynn offered a standing ovation.

Within that gala, leading figures of America’s far-left, in Stein, and hard-right, in Trump’s surrogate, found common cause. The bookends of the American political spectrum had gathered in Moscow, glad-handing with Kremlin officials. The two camps, aligned in post-fact views on American foreign policy, discovered themselves aligned in celebration of the Kremlin’s foremost foreign propaganda vehicle.

Unsurprisingly, the policy prescriptions of Stein and Flynn don’t align on much else. As it pertains to Moscow, though, it’s clear that the distance between the Stein and the Trump campaigns have effectively disappeared.

The rest of the article..
http://warincontext.org/2016/09/09/how-jill-stein-and-donald-trump-became-allies-of-vladimir-putin/

I covered "other reasons" in another post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8768468

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Response to Cha (Reply #191)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 10:29 AM

251. I read that this morning

Jill Stein is as corrupt as the Trump gang.

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Response to Chitown Kev (Reply #183)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:47 AM

193. And here is another level truly salient in the 2016 election results -- "Nobody won..."

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-13/actually-nobody-won-2016-presidential-election-and-it-was-landslide



According to new voter turnout statistics from the 2016 election, 47 percent of Americans voted for nobody, far outweighing the votes cast for Trump (25.5 percent) and Hillary (25.6 percent) by eligible voters.


* * *

And the “I voted for nobody” group is actually much larger than the 47 percent reported because that number only includes eligible voters. How many millions of Americans under the legal voting age — not to mention the countless millions who have lost their voting rights — voted for nobody, as well? Factoring in those individuals, around 193 million people did not vote for Trump or Clinton. That’s nearly two-thirds of the population of the United States.

Nobody also seemingly won the presidential primaries, with only 9 percent of Americans casting their votes for either Trump or Clinton.



Sam

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Response to Samantha (Reply #193)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 08:19 PM

330. and there's biggest problem and our challange is to get them on our side

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Response to Samantha (Reply #193)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 01:20 AM

370. The leadership has done a great job...

... of ignoring that vast pool of "opt outs" out there. They are so busy worrying about losing "moderates" or getting beaten up by the Republican noise machine if they "come on too strong" that they are completely blind to the upside of fighting the good fights. As I posted down thread, in my view the level of apathy is directly attributable to the Democratic leadership's unwillingness to:

1. Demonstrate commitment to core principles by drawing a few lines in the sand (like taking up the fight to impeach Bush to protect was is perhaps the most basic human right -- the right not to be tortured);

2. Get out there and advocate for a few "game changers" like universal health care and free access to college, instill confidence that we have the power to shape a government that works for us, and enlist people to vote elect more Dems to state and federal offices make it happen.

Continued here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8771920

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Response to Chitown Kev (Reply #183)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 08:05 AM

229. We've been naming "one of the factors" -- spreading

such vicious lies about Clinton that many who thought they'd vote for her ultimately decided not to, putting the current pack of hyenas in office.

Right now we could be talking about our administration's plan to restore good, well paying jobs with good benefits to America. Starting with President Clinton's first 100-day jobs plan.

We talk a lot about Republican regret and wonder how that's coming along.

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Response to Cha (Reply #176)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 09:52 AM

243. One hundred million Trump- and non-voters fucked it up.

Eagerly assisted by dark money, US$3 billion in free Trump airtime, decades of anti-Clinton mythology, and millennia of sexism and racism.

Stein was relatively insignificant.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #243)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:16 PM

279. I agree with this.

The largest single proximate factor in Dems' loss in Nov. '16 was simply the non-voter. Some didn't vote because they didn't like either candidate.

All the other causes opined here were certainly a factor.

But in my opinion, most non-voters didn't vote simply out of apathy or misplaced priorities (i.e., I couldn't vote because I had to work late - interfered with poker night - Trump can't possibly win; too many people will vote against him; I don't need to take the time to vote - was too busy with fantasy football to fill out my mail-in ballot - mail-in ballot had too many ballot propositions on it; too confusing - hair appointment - just forgot - etc.)

Low voter turnout favors Republicans. Very low voter turnout favors crackpots.

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Response to SpankMe (Reply #279)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:52 PM

286. I'm not sure we can even lump all the non-voters together, tempting as it is.

Rather than being the largest single factor, we may need to look at them as 42 million stories that all happen to be about not registering to vote.

I don't understand that much apathy, and I think we must.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #286)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 01:49 AM

377. Absolutely!

I think the notion that the electorate is some neat left/moderate/right bell curve is ludicrous. I don't claim to understand it all, but I took a shot at defining a few distinct groups I see "out there." I make no assertions about the size of these groups (except 4).

1. Staunch Democrats:
People who will stand strong with Dems no matter what the Dems do.

2. Not Republicans:
People who get out to vote for Dems because Republicans are so much worse. They are at risk for falling into 3. These may not be as strongly "behind" Dems as group 1, but neither are they "moderates" in the sense that they occupy some left leaning/middle ground.

3. Opt Outs:
People who have opted out because they have given up on either party ever doing anything that actually makes a difference.

4. Disenfranchised:
a) People denied the right to vote for life by their status as felons -- about 4 million nationwide (not a trivial number). For example, about 30% of the African American male population of Alabama and Mississippi fall into this category..
b) People denied the right to vote by the suppression tactics we are seeing enacted by Republican controlled legislatures. One of the most effective means -- and one that gets FAR too little attention -- is under-allocation of resources in "certain areas." In areas that had long lines as a consequence of insufficient resources I have no doubt that at least 1 in 10 turned around and went home, or back to work, when they saw the lines.

5. Republican "Swing"
People attracted to Republicans primarily because they perceive them as the "strong ones." They go with "Strong and Wrong" Republicans over "Weak and Right" Dems. Many of these would swing to Dems if Dems demonstrated strength and gave them a real choice between Strong and Wrong, and Strong and Right.

Group 5 is not "moderate" in the sense that they subscribe to some ideology in the "middle. It is the strength they see in the right-wingnuts that they find most attractive.

6. Knee jerk Republicans:
People who just see themselves as "Republican" and vote that way without much thought. Most of them probably always will. People in this group weren't keen on DT. Some stuck with him, some opted out because DT is such a horror show. Aside from the problems some of these have with DT, they go with Republican candidates down ticket. Some would actually start thinking twice if Dems transformed themselves sufficiently to inspire people in groups 3 and 5 to get behind them.

7. Staunch Reps/Dem haters: People whose hatred of Dems is so deep, nothing a Dem could do will ever reach them. Many are far more driven by hatred of Dems feed by the Republican noise machine than the propaganda against reasonable gun control and their commitment to "banning" abortion.

---------------------------------------------------

The current Democratic leadership "strategy" of preemptive surrender ignores the existence of 3 and 5. As a consequence, those groups have just grown larger and larger.

In re: 4, the failure of the leadership to make restoring the right to vote to every person who has "paid their debt to society" is appalling, as is the failure to advocate for the bold steps needed to end mass incarceration.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. The Dems are currently trapped by insidious memes and beltway group think..

They will never win a filibuster-proof majority if they don't break free of the "conventional wisdom." They won't win of a vast majority of state administrations and legislatures. If they don't change, they will not gain the power necessary to create a far more equitable nation over the coming decades.

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Response to Cha (Reply #176)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 05:56 PM

305. And people on this very site bragged about voting

for anyone other than Hillary.

It makes me sick.

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Response to Chitown Kev (Reply #173)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 09:54 AM

244. You are missing the fact that both Stein and Johnson votes increase exponentially since 2008/2012.

The increase directly correlates to Clintons loss.

Third party voting increased this election. Because these turds couldn't stand a Hillary presidency. So we got the Trump.

And if you come back and state that I cannot say for 100% certain that those Stein votes would have went for Clinton, then I ask you to prove how you know mid west voters who gave trump the presidency would have ever voted for Clinton. You cannot have this both ways.

More of the evidence supports it was third party voting that cost us this election. Not mid westerners who were ok with racism/sexism/xenophobia would have vote Hillary not matter what they would like to argue. Those people are conservative. An economic message meant shit to them.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #244)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 07:44 PM

321. Because Stein did get votes

in 2012 and Nader got votes in 2008.

I acknowledge that third party voting increased in 2016 but anywhere from 50-65 or 70% of those votes NO Democrat would have gotten.

Because there were tens of thousands of third party leftist votes in 2008 and 2012 as well.

That's all I'm saying

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Response to Chitown Kev (Reply #116)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:48 AM

139. Well lets see, in Michigan Hillary lost by .3%. Stein received 1.1% of the vote

Similar results in Wisconsin, and the other critical swing states, and yes they would have made a difference, but Stein's major campaign was to tell her supporters under "no circumstances should they vote for Hillary, even in a swing state". She further spread the bullshit that Hillary was worse than trump. THAT WAS A LIE.

Those self-identified progressives who refused to vote for Hillary by either voting third party or NOT voting DID MAKE THE DIFFERENCE, and Noam Chomsky made that very clear that those "Progressives who refused to vote for Hillary Clinton made a ‘bad mistake’

"Legendary linguist and activist Noam Chomsky thinks that progressives and left-wingers who didn’t want to vote for Hillary Clinton this year have badly miscalculated — and will now pay a very dear price.

The Huffington Post notes that in an interview with Al Jazeera’s Mehdi Hasan, Chomsky reiterated his position that people on the left should have supported Clinton’s White House bid, if only as a means to stop Donald Trump from getting elected.

“I think they [made] a bad mistake,” said Chomsky, who reiterated that it’s important to keep a “greater evil” from obtaining power, even if you’re not thrilled with the alternative. “I didn’t like Clinton at all, but her positions are much better than Trump’s on every issue I can think of.”

Chomsky also attacked the arguments made by philosopher Slavoj Zizek, who argued that Trump’s election would at least shake up the system and provide a real rallying point for the left.

“[Zizek makes a] terrible point,” Chomsky told Hasan. “It was the same point that people like him said about Hitler in the early ’30s… he’ll shake up the system in bad ways.

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/11/noam-chomsky-progressives-who-refused-to-vote-for-hillary-clinton-made-a-bad-mistake/

Every Democrat running for Senate in a swing state lost to the ESTABLISHMENT, incumbent, republican






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Response to still_one (Reply #139)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:33 AM

152. "Noam Chomsky made that very clear that those "Progressives who refused to vote for Hillary Clinton

made a ‘bad mistake’"

“ terrible point,” Chomsky told Hasan. “It was the same point that people like him said about Hitler in the early ’30s… he’ll shake up the system in bad ways."

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/11/noam-chomsky-progressives-who-refused-to-vote-for-hillary-clinton-made-a-bad-mistake/

that was Sarandon's theory.. and now she's trying to act like she doesn't have any responsibility for this shite.

Thank you, still_one.. I think about that article that you posted awhile ago about..

"Michigan Hillary lost by .3%. Stein received 1.1% of the vote"


So I googled and got this one..

Jill Stein spoiled the 2016 election for Hillary Clinton Gave us trump

Jill Stein's voters in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin helped Donald Trump win the White House

snip//

For those who worried that insufficient liberal support for Hillary Clinton would wind up electing Donald Trump, you were right.

According to a tweet from Cook Political Report’s Dave Wasserman on Thursday, the margin of difference separating the president-elect from his Democratic opponent Hillary Clinton in the three “Blue Wall” states — Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan — was less than the total number of votes received by Green Party nominee Jill Stein in each of those states:

More..
http://www.salon.com/2016/12/02/jill-stein-spoiled-the-2016-election-for-hillary-clinton/



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Response to Cha (Reply #152)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:42 AM

155. The numbers are there Cha, thanks

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Response to Cha (Reply #152)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 11:33 AM

258. Not that I don't see the point

I do...Unfortunately, I do take issue that it puts the lose on someone like Stein, a side note, and abdicates responsibility of republican45 and his campaign's treasonous collusion with Russia during the campaign.

There are several small reasons that helped contribute to Hillary's lose, of which Stein is one, but the focus should be on republican45 and his collusion with Russia.
In the end, that is the only thing that matters.

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Response to angrychair (Reply #258)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 06:56 PM

314. Of course the responsibility with what we will be going through the next 4 years lies

directly at the feet of trump and the republicans however, those who refused to vote or voted third party made that a reality, and in my view do bear some of the responsibility

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Response to angrychair (Reply #258)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 08:17 PM

329. I don't disagree - the elephant in the room is that a hostile foreign power

affected an American election with the help of one of the presidential candidates. That isn't OK no matter which side of the aisle you sit on. It's called treason.

However, and it is a big however, 92,671,979 (40 percent) of the eligible voters did not even vote.

Our leadership better be asking how our message could be adjusted to attract these people? I mean, if someone feels that it is useless to vote because their vote doesn't matter, what will it take to change that?

My answer is a populist message - actually addressing things that will make our lives better instead of subtracting even more of the tax dollars we pay in and routing them to corporate coffers. You've all heard what I have to say about single payer healthcare, but it is a powerful issue. Still, every time I bring it up, I get told I'm a unicorn or a utopian or unrealistic. People pretty much ignore what I say on here, though when I have touched too many nerves I have been temporarily banned from a couple of rooms.

But you know what? I AM a Democrat in good standing. I DO sign petitions, call my US Representative and Senators once a week, write them at least once a week and from time to time give money. I'm also involved in efforts in my state to get both houses of the legislature to pass National Popular Vote legislation. Our governor will sign it, because he's a Dem.

Thus far, though, our state Senate Democrats have lacked the backbone, or the will, or the sophistication to get this through. Republicans are in the majority by ONE and yet our party allowed the bill to DIE in committee. We still have a chance in the state House, though because the Dems have a crushing majority.

The problems?
- There is very little in the way of a national vision - yes, I know we have one, but we haven't articulated it very well, have we?
- We are too fragmented. I can remember being sick when a certain discussion of economic justice devolved into allegations that social justice is more important. sigh. And this isn't new. In the 1960's the civil rights movement became fragmented and played right into the hands of the POB (read, white male good ol' boys).

And you know what? If you want to ban me for saying that, fine, but I'm telling the truth.

Sure, Jill Stein took some votes from Hillary, but Hillary STILL won the popular vote by nearly 3 million. If we'd have had National Popular Vote laws in enough states to make up over 270 electoral votes, SHE'D BE SITTING IN THE WHITE HOUSE RIGHT NOW.

And what about those 92 million eligible voters who did not vote? Where, and how strongly do we stand as a party for making election day a holiday? Or putting it on Sunday? Or automatic voter registration?

And where are our people when Tea Party cretins try and take over our school boards? Our local governments? What kind of party strategy and national direction do we have at the state and local levels. I see some good things happening here, but we need to keep it up.

Well, it was a rant, but it is clear from the threads on this post, and on others, that I'm far from being alone. For party leaders who watch this site to see what the base is saying, here we are. We're motivated, galvanized and ready to step up and be activists. Let's get the show on the road by setting a national vision with a few points and POUND ON THOSE until we get them. Then set new goals and POUND ON THOSE until we get them. And so on. That's what the Koch brothers did through the Tea Party. Why not us?

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #329)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 04:38 AM

395. Keep fighting the good fight!

If I didn't think the Democratic leadership was capable of "seeing the light" I would have given up a long time ago.

For me, one key is listening to their excuses for not doing that which they know is right. (And the leadership does know what the right thing to do is, as Pelosi demonstrated with her "I'd be for Impeachment if I weren't speaker" insanity.) If we can put a stake in the heart of the rationalizations that immobilize them, i think we would see a transformed leadership.

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Response to still_one (Reply #139)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:57 AM

177. I've also looked at the 2012 and 2008 results in those states

although I don't know the numbers offhand.

I think that anywhere from 50-70% of the votes for Jill Stein 2016 would not have gone to any Democrat under any circumstance...which still may have been enough for Clinton to eek out a victory in those states but do not casually assume that those votes "belonged" to Hillary...they didn't.

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Response to Chitown Kev (Reply #177)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:25 AM

187. As I said those self-identified progressives who refused to vote for Hillary by either voting third

party, or NOT voting, DID MAKE THE DIFFERENCE, and by their actions, not only got trump elected, but also lost the Senate, because they believed the bullshit, that there was no difference between the republicans and Democrats.

and they will have blood on their hands at the end of four years because of those actions

Ironically, if Hillary had won, they would have been a part of the conversation. Now they will have about as much chance of that with trump and the republicans as a snowball in hell.

All the progress made on the environment, women's rights, civil rights, worker's rights, social security, medicare, healthcare, etc. have just been flushed down the drain.









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Response to still_one (Reply #187)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 09:21 AM

238. and I'm saying that a majority of those voters

did not vote for Barack Obama and would not have voted for Clinton ever.

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Response to Chitown Kev (Reply #238)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 10:04 AM

246. I understand your point. You may not be aware, but we lost a good number of folks here who said

they had voted for President Obama in 2008 and 2012, but refused to vote for Hillary.

While there is no doubt that the Comey/FBI interference, the distortion, misreporting, and double standard of the press, along with probable Russian involvement were severe blows, it was enough of those self-identified progressives refused to vote for Hillary by either voting third party or not voting, that made the difference.

They falsely believed she was "the lesser of two evils", which wasn't true.

These self-identified progressives who refused to vote for Hillary by simply staying home gave us what we have today. They sealed it, not only for the white house, but also the Senate, as evidenced by every Democrat running in a swing state lost to the establishment, incumbent, republican

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Response to Chitown Kev (Reply #177)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 04:04 AM

393. Even if you were to accept the premise that every Stein vote....

... would have gone to Clinton if Stein had not been in the race, the level of responsibility for Democratic losses that could be laid at the feet of the "far left" is minuscule compared to the damage done by the failures of leadership i cite.

The adulation of Reagan would not exist if he had faced the impeachment his actions demanded.

Bush Jr would never have been in the running at all if Bush Sr. had been prosecuted.

Those failures alone didn't bring us here. The leadership had another chance to fight for us -- to fight for our right to have our votes counted -- by standing and objecting to the unlawfully appointed Florida electors.

And, even failing that, they had yet another chance to turn the tide by drawing a line in the sand and fighting to impeach Bush to defend perhaps the most basic human right there is -- the right not to be tortured.

When the leadership went all out to stop the momentum that was building for impeachment, the message they sent was crystal clear: "This is not important enough to us. Torturing in the name of the American people isn't really so bad." And that message gave power to the worst of humanity. Their failure to draw lines in the sand at critical junctures allowed lines that should be held inviolable to be crossed with impunity.

And when it comes to driving policy debates, what the Democratic leadership has yet to understand is that it is not just about what 'they" can "give us" or get done "for us" in the current legislative session. It MUST also be about building a vision of what the American people are capable accomplishing; it's about instilling confidence in our power to make those visions a reality. That is what engages.

The leadership has been so obsessed with their fears of being beaten up by the Republican noise machine if they do anything that anybody might call "extreme" that they have been completely blind to the upside of 'fighting the good fights." Namely, that a substantial number of the people who have either given up, or never felt inspired by either party, would BE inspired.

-------------------------
On Edit: As I have pointed out repeatedly, this is NOT about "bashing" them. This is not just about "the past." It is about THE FUTURE. All I am attempting to do is encourage a recognition of how wrong and destructive the rationalizations for inaction have been. I think it is vital to expose how counter-productive "can't win, so don't fight" is; to point out the extent to which fear of 'backlash' blinds them to the benefits of demonstrating the courage of their convictions; to put up a mirror to help them see how absurd notions like "I opposed Alito by casting a losing No vote on the floor (even though I refused to join the filibuster that would have actually stopped him)" are. If we can put a "stake in the heart" of the rationalizations that keep them from fighting the good fights, we will either see a whole lot more movement in the right direction TODAY and TOMORROW, or a new set of irrational rationalizations for inaction will crop up (and need to be torn down).


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Response to pat_k (Reply #393)

Sun Mar 12, 2017, 10:03 AM

521. It not just Stein voters

it is the millions who stayed home and didn't vote at all.

Also, I don't think voters today care much about impeachments that didn't happen either 8 or 30 years ago. They care about what is happening today.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #521)

Sun Mar 12, 2017, 06:02 PM

525. Absolutely.

Many, many factors at work.

I do not take the ridiculous position that the failures I cite are the only factor; or that the Stein voters are the only factor; or that low participation is the only factor, or that the Republican noise machine is the only factor; or that the billions invested by scaife, koch bros, and so on is the only factor.. All these things and more are at play. Low levels of participation have plagued us for so long. I think participation (national average for presidential) has topped out at about 60% -- which is shameful. This election was low, but it has gone lower. As a factor, it is one that is of very long standing.

The position I am taking is that those factors would have been overcome if we had not taken some seriously wrong steps. And that we CAN overcome the forces driving the rise of right wing extremism if we look at those mistakes and commit to changing some of the basic ways of thinking that led to those mistakes. It's all about being more effective going forward.

If we had been bolder, I believe the participation rate would have been higher. If we had been stronger, and drawn some lines in the sand, I think we would not be perceived as weak relative to the "strong" republicans... and so on.

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Response to still_one (Reply #139)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 06:11 PM

308. Just out of curiosity....

 

What percentage of the union vote did Hillary win compared to Obama?
Answer: about 10% less.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/labor-unions-hillary-clinton-mobilization-231223

What percentage of the hispanic vote did Hillary win compared to Obama?
What percentage of the Jewish vote did HIllary win compared to Obama or even Kerry?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/how-the-faithful-voted-a-preliminary-2016-analysis/ft_16-11-09_relig_exitpoll_religrace/

Last I checked those numbers she lost a percentage point or more from Obama on each of those groups (with the exception of Jewish voters from 2012 but not any previous election). I'm curious why those groups are exempt from all the blame going around?

Especially since those groups actively did vote for a Dem for President before and actively voted for the other candidate this time around.

And all the Stein voter brouhaha of her scary 1% of the votes doesn't even factor in how many Republican voters Johnson pulled or how many Republicans just sat out the election as well because they couldn't stomach Trump.

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Response to Cha (Reply #111)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:42 AM

135. And Comey, and Putin ...

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #135)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:51 AM

140. YES! Mahalo, Lil Missy

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Response to Cha (Reply #140)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:42 PM

265. ....

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Response to Cha (Reply #111)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:05 AM

159. Let's don't take any responsibility for any of this.

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Response to KPN (Reply #159)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:21 AM

163. I posting the article in response to the first sentence of the OP.. there are other

reasons we lost.. Voter Suppression,Voter Purging, comey, the Russian coup/hacking/

But the damn lies of stein were a huge contributing factor..

Dangerous#1 Dangerous#2 Dangerous#3













they damn well will.. sitting on their millions while the Planet goes to shite and people go hungry and Immigrants banned from the US by "the bumbler" according the ever present idiot, jill stein




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Response to Cha (Reply #163)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:29 AM

165. I get all that.

But I agree with the OP. This has been building for decades. Americans as a whole are disgusted with our two party system ... and the Rs have been doing a better job taking advantage of that while Dems have "incrementalized" in gentlemanly fashion. Good way to get sucker punched -- which we were.

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Response to KPN (Reply #165)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:37 AM

170. You may get it.. but the OP doesn't or that wouldn't have been the 1st

sentence.

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Response to Cha (Reply #170)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:42 AM

190. What is it that you think I "don't get'??

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Response to Cha (Reply #170)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 01:31 AM

375. I disagree with you on that too.

You present numbers that carry with them all kinds of assumptions while downplaying if not ignoring the bigger picture in my view. We are at odds on this -- I don't think that is going to change. My sense is there's nothing I can say that will change your mind. We need to move along and work together regardless of our opinions about why we lost. That takes a certain degree of acceptance regarding each other's perspective.

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Response to KPN (Reply #159)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:00 PM

287. Exactly. You'd think that four months later,

there might be a little less DENIAL, but no. Never the candidate or the party or the message, but everyone and everything else.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #287)

Sat Mar 11, 2017, 10:27 AM

503. +1

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Response to Cha (Reply #111)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:24 PM

282. How curious that you're beating up the female candidate, when Gary Johnson (L)...

had much more of an impact:

Pennsylvania
Johnson 2.4%
Stein .8%

Michigan
Johnson 3.59%
Stein 1.07%

Wisconsin
Johnson 3.58%
Stein 1.04%

Why is that?

The race shouldn't have been as close as it was in either of those three states. Folks with their eyes wide open know that the current clusterfuck has been building for over three decades. Abandon labor, Democratic Party -- this is what you get. "It's the economy, stupid." Never the fault of the candidate or the party in your world, eh? "Lessons learned" not your thing?

What's your magic plan for winning back those electoral votes? No one is offering up solutions.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #282)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:07 PM

288. Very good point

There were multiple reasons.

I don't know why they pick on the votes towards the most progressive party other than Democrats to pick on. Its like standing in a playground and when the orange faced bully knocks you down and walks away laughing, you get up and glare around and find the smallest weakest girl that is the closest to you to smack upside the head and make yourself feel better.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #288)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 05:21 PM

303. LOL So much ire toward Stein when good ol' Gary was the bigger menace...

and has the numbers to prove it. Same with the 24,000 Nader-voting Florida Democrats versus the 308,000 Bush-voting Florida Democrats. Just doesn't fit in with the left-bashing agenda, which I'm wondering... is it now part of DU's mission statement? Gotta check that.

Hillary should have gone *total* weed. We would have won Libertarians and Greens. Coulda, shoulda, woulda...

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #303)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 07:03 PM

315. It does seem lately that there is an effort to shut down (or shout out) progressives in here.

Although I'm coming to the conclusion that there is an angry bitter minority that sits by their computers just waiting for any kind of OP like this and PM their cohorts and swamp the thread initially. If you wait long enough, saner voices usually fill it in.
TWIMC:



And those progressives are just people, Democrats, that basically want the same things as the ones who criticize them in here. Those critics, who if you went down the list and forced them to answer yes or no to the same issues, would be hard-pressed to disagree with anything. Which makes their faux outrage all the more laughable.

You are absolutely right about Hillary and her positioning. Her husband invented the Third Way and Triangulation and she was hell bent on holding on to that strategy till the bitter end. ie. overly careful not to piss off the 'moderate' Republican-lite who would vote Democrat (a creature who is probably outnumbered by unicorns).

Don't blame Bernie for being popular because he championed the traditional Democratic principles. And also moved them further with his proposals of the $15 wage, free college tuition, legal weed, and even floating the idea of eventual single payer. THOSE SHOULD HAVE BEEN HILLARY'S POSITIONS ALL ALONG. And then Sanders would only be the old man who wasn't a full time Democrat that said the same things she did. She would have not only swept every State in the primaries, but won the election handily.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #315)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 07:56 PM

323. The "angry, bitter minority" had vastly different positions at one time. VASTLY.

Check your e-mail -- I sent you two examples. I've bookmarked many more.

We all know that if Hillary won and proposed cuts to SS and Medicare to "save it," these same folks would be cheering. Now that it's Trump, Ryan, et al., they're opposed. DU was once a place of robust discussion and a great place to learn. Now? Not so much.

Just stumbled upon this beaut from one of the links I shared with you:

"The New Deal political philosophy that defined our politics for most of the 20th century has run its course; the political coalition it spawned has been split. Like Humpty Dumpty, the New Deal coalition cannot be put back together again."

DLC founder Al From, Blueprint Magazine, January 2001


Fuck you, Al.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #323)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 10:18 PM

345. + 1000

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #323)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 09:48 PM

480. Show me anywhere where ANY of "these same folks" have EVER shown ANY tendency to support cuts to

SS and Medicare.

That's a crap comment.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #315)

Sat Mar 11, 2017, 10:30 AM

504. Agree completely.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #282)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 10:30 PM

347. You call exposing "beating up".. "How Jill Stein and Donald Trump became allies of Vladimir Putin"



snip//

Casey Michel writes: Last December, at a gala honoring the 10th anniversary of the Russian propaganda channel RT, Russian President Vladimir Putin nestled himself between a pair of visitors at the head table. To the president’s right: A former head of the US’s Defense Intelligence Agency, known best for his hard-right views on Islam, which he would later compare to “cancer.” And to Putin’s left: The soon-to-be Green Party nominee for the White House, whose presidential debate would be carried on, of all things, RT.

The two – Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn, an adviser to Republican nominee Donald Trump, and Jill Stein, the presidential nominee from the Green Party – chummed with Putin throughout the evening, later joined at the table by RT (formerly Russia Today) head Margarita Simonyan and then-Chief of Staff Sergei Ivanov. Soon, Putin took the dais, running through rote commentary on RT’s accomplishments. When he finished, applause rang. Stein shook his hand. Flynn offered a standing ovation.

Within that gala, leading figures of America’s far-left, in Stein, and hard-right, in Trump’s surrogate, found common cause. The bookends of the American political spectrum had gathered in Moscow, glad-handing with Kremlin officials. The two camps, aligned in post-fact views on American foreign policy, discovered themselves aligned in celebration of the Kremlin’s foremost foreign propaganda vehicle.

Unsurprisingly, the policy prescriptions of Stein and Flynn don’t align on much else. As it pertains to Moscow, though, it’s clear that the distance between the Stein and the Trump campaigns have effectively disappeared.

The rest of the article..
http://warincontext.org/2016/09/09/how-jill-stein-and-donald-trump-became-allies-of-vladimir-putin/

That's the "female" you're so concerned about with the "curious" insult.

Poor stein..

stein could stop lying her damn head off.. but she's already got $4 million and counting to be the ratfucker in the next election.

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Response to Cha (Reply #347)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 10:48 PM

351. Will you do a 180 on Stein like you did with Hillary?

Enquiring minds want to know!

Meh. Thanks to a treasure trove at the DU of days gone by, I don't take your "concern" -- on anything -- seriously.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #351)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 10:54 PM

353. Oh good.. all you have are insults.. no defending stein on being a putin troll?

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Response to Cha (Reply #353)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 11:05 PM

354. Exactly... "no defending stein on being a putin troll."

I couldn't care less about Jill Stein. Or Gary Johnson. What I care about is that the Democratic Party has imploded over the past three decades, and now controls ZERO branches of government, and only SIX states. That's not the fault of Jill Stein or any third-party candidate, regardless of how much you spam this OP with tweets.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #354)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 11:10 PM

355. Good there is no defense of the Liar stein.. she owns a chunk of trump

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Response to Cha (Reply #355)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 11:16 PM

356. Gary Johnson owns a bigger chunk. And how much...

does the Democratic Party and candidate herself own for not appealing to voters beyond the coast and an inadequate number of blue pockets in between?

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #356)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 02:37 AM

382. Hey.. don't forget about fuckng james comey of the FBI.. and the Russians..

wouldn't want to leave them out would you?

stein ran on the green party and lied her head off all off for the Russians and now the Greens have a fucking Climate Change Denier in the wh... way to go geniuses

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #351)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 02:52 AM

383. Is that what you call it.. "an enquiring mind"? lol

Yes, I support Hillary now.. it's too bad that bothers you so much.


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Response to Cha (Reply #111)


Response to Post removed (Reply #318)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 12:48 AM

364. No, Hillary did not "spoil" the Election... and your saying that does not

make it so.

Keep your blinders on. There's many many more of us who are into reality.

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Response to Cha (Reply #111)

Sat Mar 11, 2017, 01:03 AM

492. Do you ever hear Republicans unloading on Ross Perot?

He probably cost HW Bush his reelection. But you know what? Republicans moved on and won future elections at every governmental level. Dems are still fighting about the 2000 election in 2017, criticizing voters that didn't even vote Republican, ignoring registered Democrats and independents that did vote Republican. What is up with this pointless and counterproductive obsession with scapegoating Stein voters? Hey, I have a suggestion. Next time, let's have the Democratic candidate show up in the critical battleground states and win more voters than the Republican! It's been done before, and it could be done again!!

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Response to dchill (Reply #1)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:25 AM

130. The "Extreme left gave us..." post..

is here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8749488

The "extreme left" referenced in the post are people who don't vote for Democrats because -- as the poster, Trumpocalypse, puts it -- the Dems don't pass some "purity test." It's a notion that vastly oversimplifies the thinking of the people who sit it out or vote third-party. The assertions the poster makes are firmly grounded in the conventional wisdom that Dems need to go to the 'middle' to win elections.

The way I see it, that "conventional wisdom," is a driving force behind the "don't do anything FOX might vilify" strategy we have seen in action over the last couple decades. (Fear of Republican "backlash" is the reigning champ when it comes to rationalizations for refusing to do that which they know is right. And the leadership does know what the right thing to do is, as Pelosi demonstrated with her "I'd be for Impeachment if I weren't speaker" insanity.)

My view of the breakdown of the electorate is very different, and consequently, I've come to a very different conclusion. I describe my view of the 'breakdown" in this post:

It is not a left/moderate/right "divide." It's more like this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2594053


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Response to pat_k (Reply #130)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 07:26 PM

455. Your list in your post "It is not a left/moderate/right "divide." isn't complete...

...it has one glaring omission.

While we're at it, since you created (or posted) the list, in which category do you include yourself?

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Response to George II (Reply #455)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 08:03 PM

461. Me? Group 1.

What group do I need to add?

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Response to pat_k (Reply #461)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 08:08 PM

462. Are you serious? Let's review:

Group 1 consists of "People who will stand strong with Dems no matter what the Dems do". You claim to be in that group.

On the other hand, you opened your OP with this:

The path to hell was paved by... the Democratic leadership's refusal to do their duty and defend the Constitution they swore to uphold by fighting, win or lose, for:

1. Impeachment of Reagan for Iran-Contra.
2. Prosecution of Bush Sr. when the extent of his role in Iran contra was exposed.
3. An objection to the unlawfully appointed FL electors on Jan 6, 2001, as was their duty under the electoral count act.
4. Impeachment of Bush/Cheney for torture.


Operative words are "NO MATTER WHAT THE DEMS DO"!

You call that "standing strong with Dems no matter what the Dems do"? You (incorrectly, I might add) tell us that the path to hell was paved by Democrats and then later claim that you stand strong with Democrats NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO?

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Response to George II (Reply #462)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 08:10 PM

463. I stand with Democrats even when they are idiots because I KNOW they are capable of better.

I stand with Democrats even when they are idiots because I KNOW they are capable of better. And as a staunch Democrat, I believe it's my duty to do what I can to make ours a more effective party

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Response to pat_k (Reply #463)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 08:15 PM

464. Bashing the crap out of them for things that happened more than a decade and a half ago...

...is not standing with them in my opinion.

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Response to George II (Reply #464)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 08:31 PM

467. You've made that pretty clear.


______________________________-
On Edit: For those who see this as "bashing" and would call me a "Democrat hater," or who think I am being an apologist for the voters who opted out, perhaps the following posts will help you recognize what I am actually saying: Posts #449 and #274.

An example of what I mean by "driving the policy debate": Post #399

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Response to George II (Reply #462)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 08:33 PM

468. P.S. You neglected to say what group I need to add

You mentioned that there was a glaring omission. i'd like to correct it. What do i need to add?

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Response to pat_k (Original post)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 08:29 PM

2. If you hate the party so much, then why post at a place for Democrats?

 

You seem angrier at the party than at the guy deporting immigrants and taking healthcare completely away.
I think whoever has these thought on the party need to prove they are right by winning. If yiu win, and work, people start listening. If you just point fingers at us for losing while your not even able win at all???

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Response to bravenak (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 08:44 PM

9. Who's worse, a criminal committing a crime, or a cop that looks the other way?

Criminals are the "bad guys."
Cops are supposed to be the "good guys."
Criminals committing crimes is not upsetting. It's expected.
When you REALLY get into trouble is when the cops turn a blind eye and fail to do what they need to do to stop the criminals.

And in the political world, corporatists/reactionaries are the "bad guys."
Democrats are supposed to be the "good guys"
Corporatist/reactionaries doing destructive things is not upsetting. It's expected.
The reason we are REALLY in trouble now is that the Democrats have been turning a "blind eye" to executive branch high crimes. They have failed to do what they need to do to stop the criminals.

Serpico was a good cop. He fought for reform of the police depart.

i'm a good democrat. I'm fighting for reform of the party.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #9)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 08:47 PM

10. Fight Trump for fuck's sake!

 

Fight him! If you aint got time to fight him, are you really who we need to listen to?

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Response to bravenak (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 09:31 PM

23. Exactly bravenak.

yes!

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #23)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 09:32 PM

25. It's kinda strange that we should only listen to those who are fighting us

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #25)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 09:35 PM

30. strange...

yet very very interesting. hmmm.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #30)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:24 PM

68. We've seen this show before. Tiresome.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #25)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:45 AM

138. This is not fighing you!!!

My gawd you take it so damn personal. It is having the strength to first look at what we as a party have done right, and that is many things, but also to look at mistakes, and address them, as hard as that may be. And in the end to create a stronger united force to battle this dangerous threat.

That is all the OP is saying.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #138)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:45 PM

272. exactly

you'd think they were Democratic politicians. And also that they could do no wrong.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 09:49 PM

40. "For fuck's sake" the way to fight DT is to kick Dems in the butt to go all out

Like lobbying them to filibuster Gorsuch.

Like lobbying them to oppose DT nominees.

You know. Like doing the work necessary to build the political will within the party to go all out.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #40)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:23 PM

65. You fight him by kicking our asses? How the hell does that make any sense?

 

If the policies you want are so popular, why are there not hundreds of congresspeople with your exact same ideology.
They are already not voting for trump's nominees, mostly. The ones who are are doing so in states where there is no way in hot HELL that a far left progressive could win. Might want to tailor your message.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #65)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:25 PM

70. The point is to get MORE of them to vote no.

It's really pretty fucking simple.

That's what lobbying is all about. Coordinating with the members who are doing the right thing to lobby other members to join them.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #70)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:48 PM

83. No you're kicking the Democratic Party over stupid shit.

that's already happened.. we have SHIT HAPPENING RIGHT FUCKING NOW. If you want to go back in time to every mistake the Democratic Party ever made have fucking fun.. here's some fun - go back to pre 1930's ... Find every single little flaw, and while you're wasting your time , other folks will see to more pressing matters like the current dipshit in the whitehouse.

I'm a millennial, and so help me god I will do my best to not see the bullshit of last year repeated because of DUMB SHIT... already 2 years of potential progress has BEEN LOST, and there's only so much shit my generation can fix when it's our time to lead.

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Response to JHan (Reply #83)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:51 PM

88. +1

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #88)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:53 PM

90. I can't take the motherfucking bullshit anymore I swear...

Like I have years and years to throw away and flush down the toilet because of some resentments from over 3 fucking decades ago.. jesus fucking christ.

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Response to JHan (Reply #90)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:03 PM

98. Half the shit they mad at happened before we were born

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #98)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:06 PM

103. and Iran-fucking-contra really?

Was I even a spec in my mother's and father's eyes?

We have the EPA about to be dismantled, every regulation or progress made to make the environment cleaner, so we don't get more Flints, and put the money predator's feet to the fire ( ALL BECAUSE OF DEMOCRATIC POLICIES) ..and I'm supposed to fucking care about Iran Fucking Contra - is Reagan still fucking alive?

OP Don't expect me to care. I can't afford to.

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Response to JHan (Reply #103)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:09 PM

105. I was still in Buster Browns during Iran Contra.

 

Back when there was still a Kenny's shoe store and a Lamont's at the mall. They put their grudges before our interests every damn time. Why listen to them? Nope. Done.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #105)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:12 PM

108. +100000000000000000000

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Response to bravenak (Reply #105)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:57 AM

143. Anyone who likens anger over Iran-Contra to a "grudge"...

is not someone who should be taken seriously. Perhaps you need to bone up on what actually went down during the dark Reagan years... might help you understand some of what's going on now.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #143)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:58 AM

144. I know because I study history..

and I study history enough to understand priorities and what the objective is RIGHT NOW, RIGHT HERE in 2017 and onwards.

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Response to JHan (Reply #144)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:06 AM

146. Right-o. You "study history," but are you LEARNING from it?

"RIGHT NOW, RIGHT HERE" did not happen overnight -- it's been building for DECADES. You, Buster Brown, and so many others need to grasp that. Dems control only SIX statehouses, which is an historic low. How you gonna fix that? What's your master plan for winning back the crucial electoral votes of PA, MI and WI? Hmmm?

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #146)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:14 AM

147. what makes you think I am not aware of the impact of history ?

Nothing, absolutely NOTHING, in my comments suggested that.

Yes I am very aware, I am LIVING the awareness right now , of stupidity and rank foolishness.

I don't need to be told about the legacy of american foreign policy, acquiescence, naivety or cravenness that is sometimes a feature of politics.

You don't get it - the OP's post is the most irrelevant post in the history of irrelevant posts

When I go to sleep at night I am not thinking of iran fucking contra, I am thinking of a blown up deficit in a couple years, I am worried about a seemingly trigger happy president who tweets dumb shit with serious repercussions at 6 am in the morning, I am thinking of friends who are afraid of coming back to the states or leaving for fear of being detained because of their religion and or ethnicity or their fucking name, I am afraid of the heritage foundation vultures swarming the whitehouse who will undo every bit progress first started under FDR, decades of liberalism gone, norms and values gone, and none of them will care about the outcomes of their sick philosophies. I worry about the spread of toxic populism, the fact that this president lied about jobs coming back and has no real plans or understanding of the unique challenges of this new century, MY CENTURY. I worry about the environment, and climate change and an asshole who heads the EPA and the other asshole who won't flinch if people die in this country because of poor health coverage.

but no, let's talk about what Dems did during iran contra.

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Response to JHan (Reply #147)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:50 AM

157. Meh.

Try to grasp how pivotal the '80s were and how this unraveling has been building for DECADES, when the Democratic Party shifted right, abandoned labor, and stopped being the opposition party. We're all paying for it now. I imagine the older members of this board understand the magnitude of losing PA, MI and WI, perhaps someday you will, too. What's your solution to win back those electoral votes?

Let's move away from the far-reaching scandal known as Iran-Contra, shall we, since your knickers are in such a twist over the mere mention of it. Let's focus on something more recent, like Democrats rolling over during the selection of Dubya and entirely too many Democrats giving he and his merry band of warmongers the OK on Iraq, both touched on in the "irrelevant" OP. Still too far back for you?

Seriously, poo-poing Iran-Contra. Only on DU!

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #157)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:00 AM

158. Naw you keep thinking about past fevers from long ago and keep misconstruing my point..

.. merely because I do not entertain the OP's view which remains irrelevant to the issues we face.

You're also free to assume that my youth means I don't understand the significance of history.

But you'll be wrong: I damn sure understand History - here's what I understand:

1- the history that gave us the outcome of the 2000 elections (NADER) which gave us Dubya and his administration which deceived millions upon millions upon millions of Americans, including congress, and sank trillions in the sands of Iraq. Dubya also gave us a supreme court justice who later voted for citizens united - which democrats oppose, not to mention the other republican appointees to the court who gave us the hobby lobby decision,

2) That the progressive vs establishment is a false dichotomy designed to fracture the party.

3) That the broad tent party of the Democrats has been in existence since FDR and the right has always found ways to divide and splinter groups under this tent for political gain - with success.

I'm sure there's another thread where we can talk about Iran Contra, and the first Iraq War, and the second, etc. I'm sure if Trump wants to go to war, those issues will become relevant again, but the choices were stark and clear last year. Bringing up the spectre of Iran Contra and all the other coded accusations from decades ago to excoriate a party in the present, is rank foolishness. I shouldn't need to explain why it is rank foolishness.

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Response to JHan (Reply #158)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:19 AM

162. Be sure to let us know...

how far back we're *allowed* to go, mmmkay? I'm going to bed. Can't wait for the answer in the a.m.

Seriously, if you can't connect the foreign policy dots of the '80s to where we are today, there may be no hope for you.

Approximately 24,000 registered Democrats voted for Nader in Florida, whereas about 308,000 voted for George Dubya Fucking Bush. Your crusade-like blame is misplaced.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #162)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:32 AM

167. Nighty night, sweet dreams!

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Response to JHan (Reply #167)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:39 AM

171. LEARN FROM HISTORY.

Can't stop laughing.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #171)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:02 AM

179. Lol.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #171)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 04:07 PM

293. "Iran-Contra taught the Republicans that they can get away with anything"...

from StevieM's post, who is dead-on in that assessment. Dems rolling over is one of the reasons we're in this clusterfuck. Hilarious!

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #293)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 05:03 PM

299. I blame Republicans.

Watergate was the Scarlett O'Hara moment when Republicans vowed never to be hungry again: they would co-opt evangelical Christianity, establish think tanks to produce alternative facts and dream up grand plans of global conquest, fill courts and school boards and local governments with conservatives, do whatever it takes to create a powerful Republican world where they alone are the masters.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #299)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 05:17 PM

301. And Democrats who didn't fight that are off the hook in your world?

WOW.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #301)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 05:19 PM

302. Who? I don't know who you're talking about.

Names names. Who didn't fight? How do you know?

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Response to betsuni (Reply #302)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 07:59 AM

422. Seems to be a deafening silence in response.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #293)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 07:49 PM

322. Actually, when Ford pardoned Nixon

Republicans learned they can get away with anything. That was the original sin. Iran Contra just reinforced it.

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Response to charlyvi (Reply #322)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 08:00 PM

324. Very good point.

But, hey, don't go too far back now... some can't handle it!

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #324)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 08:05 PM

326. IKR! But sometimes it needs to be reinforced

All this shit didn't just start with Bernie/Hillary/Trump. We need some context.

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Response to charlyvi (Reply #326)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 08:20 PM

331. But nothing matters since certain posters were still in their Buster Browns!

Thanks for your input.

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Response to JHan (Reply #158)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:24 AM

186. Here is a thread I recently started about Iran-Contra and its relation to what is happening today.

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Response to StevieM (Reply #186)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:46 AM

192. Thanks, that's a rational analysis.

There's much I can think of that's responsible for the state of our politics today, going back decades - even starting before Iran Contra - but Iran-Contra was a water shed moment in "post truth politics".

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Response to StevieM (Reply #186)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 04:15 PM

294. "Iran-Contra taught the Republicans that they can get away with anything."

You are dead on in that assessment. Kinda sad that it's flying over the head of so many in this thread...

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #157)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:22 AM

185. Let's not forget the destruction of Acorn.

Also, here is a recent thread I wrote about Oliver North and Iran-Contra.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028548992

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Response to StevieM (Reply #185)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 04:47 PM

296. Ugh, yes. PERFECT example.

Forty years of good work destroyed by an edited 20-minute O'Keefe video, and Democrats rolled.

I kicked your Ollie/Iran-Contra thread. It'll sink like a stone because according to some, it's just too far back!

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #143)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:26 AM

188. Thanks.

I am mystified by the idea that events of 30 years ago are so "ancient" that they can be dismissed as irrelevant.

The unfolding of events from the Watergate era forward -- the "ancient history" of my adolescence -- brings us to where we are today.

The first world war, depression, second world war, post war, Vietnam era -- all that "ancient history" -- is the arc that brought us to Nixon. And knowledge of the arc of events and political dynamics gave us perspective and context. What we learned in classes was brought alive by memories of our parents and grandparents. History predating living memory has a very different character.

The "players" that were around during that ancient Iran Contra scandal are still around. And they have brought with them a set of beliefs that shaped decisions 20 years ago, 10 years ago, and last year. For example, during Iran Contra, Barney Frank expressed fears that Democrats would look "too prosecutorial" if they went after Reagan. Knowing that helps me understand how deeply entrenched the Party's fear of "backlash" is. And that knowledge gives me perspective. I keep banging away at the brick wall of beltway group think because I know it is a wall that will not come down easily.

I can't imagine what things look like from a point of view that has no interest in events that occurred prior to ones own adolescence.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #188)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:56 AM

197. Absolutely no one in this thread is saying to ignore history...

Of course history unfolds and impacts current events. I can find strands of history that have shaped politics today going back a hundred years.

Your OP made a specific allegation which places blame at the foot of democrats for deceit engaged by Republicans. The system doesn't always work as it should, sometimes it fails because politicians are flawed, or uninformed, or deceived or craven. There are many things I wish the Democratic Party did differently, but I fail to see the benefits of flagellation at this point - and that is my beef.

And if you're holding politicians hostage to beliefs they held years ago, you're holding them to a high standard we don't even hold for ourselves.

People change, circumstances change, stances shift - that is reality. So Barney Frank said what he said back then, what is the relevance to Barney Frank's position today? And what would you rather the democrats do RIGHT NOW to combat Trump? Is it that you think Democrats are currently too soft on him? Are you seeing parallels in the way North was treated then and Trump is treated now? And what are your solutions if you believe that to be so? What should they do instead that they are not doing now?

Don't conflate my( And others) wanting you to connect a thread with the present situation as us not caring about history.

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Response to JHan (Reply #197)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 04:42 AM

205. Someone who can rationalization doing nothing to stop torture...

... can rationalize doing nothing on just about anything.

The leadership will not move to Impeach Trump when he starts torturing until they acknowledge how immoral their efforts to stop the momentum to impeach of Bush were.

They will not stand up and filibuster Gorsuch until they recognize how irrational their rationalizations for refusing to filibuster Alito were.

There are many other examples, but the bottom line is that re-examining the "old fights" is ABSOLUTELY relevant to today's political world.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #205)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 04:50 AM

207. What are you going to impeach him on right now as of this moment?

Yes , we all want to see him impeached...

Including Maxine Waters, and other democrats.. but Which party currently dictate the rules, including which avenues of investigation we take?

So what do you want to see the democrats do right now, given the tools at their disposal?

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Response to JHan (Reply #207)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 05:32 AM

212. For starters...

Write their own ACA replacement billL Medicare for all. Get out there and talk it up. Make the case for electing Dems in two years to get it done.

Write a resolution to create a select committee to investigate the "Russiagate" charges, get every single Dem to co-sponsor it, and get the leadership out there making the case for this single action with a single voice.

Have the leadership start "herding the cats" and get commitments to filibuster Gorsuch, and any other DT SCOTUS nominee (the only exception being if Trump nominates Garland). This was Obama's seat to fill.

The thing is, it is NOT about what they can do for us. It's about proposing REAL change, making the case for it, and calling on us to join them to get it done. The answer to 'you don't have the votes to do xxxx" is "So what? Xxxx will make a REAL difference in the lives of countless Americans, and here's why. Let's make it happen. Elect Dems in 2018."

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Response to pat_k (Reply #212)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 09:20 AM

237. that doesn't answer the question about impeachment:

Because in order for impeachment proceedings to begin, we need investigations which the Democrats want but the Republicans - with the exception of Graham and McCain - don't want.

But I do agree about the Democrats coming up with a better plan but you sound like you think they aren't working - they are.

Even Sanders has shifted the conversation to saving the ACA as is and fixing it, rather than attacking it which he has done in the past. I happen to agree that we need to work towards universal health care coverage but let's be clear - Obamacare changed the baseline, millions of Americans now see coverage as a right. This is already change.

And I have confidence in Ellison and Perez to get things going. Everything I've heard from the democrats suggest they're aware of 2018, and it's critical they harness the organic energy fermenting against Trump right now.

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Response to JHan (Reply #237)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:11 PM

276. I have answered the question.

We do not (yet) have "torture in plain sight" -- something that every member of Congress had an absolute duty to fight to stop -- as we did with Bush. But when DT does openly cross such a line, if the leadership has not overcome all the rationalizations that kept them from doing their duty and fighting to impeach Bush, those same rationalizations will stop them from fighting to impeach Trump.

He has already declared his support for Torture. I have no doubt that he will start torturing in the name of the American people -- and doing it openly.

It's not just about coming up with an advocating a this or that "plan." It's about being clear about a vision -- the goal, having the confidence that WE can get there, and enlisting the American people in making it happen. Confidence breeds confidence. Taking on the naysayers within our own party is critical. We can't just be against DT. We can't just be trying to "stop" the RW. We must pit our dreams against the DT dystopian nightmare.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #188)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 04:06 AM

200. And secondly, your accusations that Democrats have not made the moral case for issues...

is too much far out to be believed.

Tonight on Brian Williams, a Republican Strategist made the point that Obamacare is now the "third rail", just as Social Security became the "third rail" - in other words, Obamacare is now the baseline. Millions of Americans will not accept anything less than Obamacare. This was unthinkable 10 years ago, when the status quo was very different: And it means we have had yet another shift towards expansion of healthcare, where Americans actually envision healthcare as a right and are demanding their representatives fix what ails ACA rather than repeal it -

Every single backward decision over the past couple decades that has imperiled our politics is the result of Republican shenanigans. The same Barney Frank you mention, was responsible for Dodd Frank, which Trump now wants to get rid of- Dodd Frank wasn't perfect but it was bothersome enough for the same one percenters to complain about it because, in the words of Trump , "my nice friends can't get loans"..

So sure, go on, see Democrats as the problem.

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Response to JHan (Reply #200)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 04:26 AM

203. I didn't say "Democrats" I said "Democratic Leadership"...

There is a big difference.

Who's worse, a criminal committing a crime, or a cop that looks the other way?

Criminals are the "bad guys."
Cops are supposed to be the "good guys."
Criminals committing crimes is not upsetting. It's expected.
When you REALLY get into trouble is when the cops turn a blind eye and fail to do what they need to do to stop the criminals.

And in the political world, corporatists/reactionaries are the "bad guys."
Democrats are supposed to be the "good guys"
Corporatist/reactionaries doing destructive things is not upsetting. It's expected.
The reason we are REALLY in trouble now is that the the Democratic leadership has done worse than turn a "blind eye" to executive branch high crimes. They went out of their way to stop the momentum that was building within the caucus for impeachment. They have worked to "nip in the bud" numerous efforts toward real change that were gaining steam in within the party. That is not leading on the issues. That is being an obstructionist.

Serpico was a good cop. He fought for reform of the police depart.

i'm a good democrat. I'm fighting for reform of the party.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #203)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 04:47 AM

206. I don't understand that assessment..

In my view, there's already an understanding baked in democratic principles that health care is important, and wages are important. We also need a strong economy, so you have your pro-growth democrats who believe the best way to secure the safety net is to ensure growth - which means not demonizing to the hilt "corporations". The key is funneling gains to wages so corporations cannot be allowed to run roughshod, after all CEO's will always want to improve their bottom line. There's already an awareness of this among democrats.

Change may not have happened as quickly as you would have liked, but it happened. And if there wasn't republican obstruction over the last 6 years, much more would have been done - Obama's second term defined obstructionist behavior - by republicans.

The Democratic Party is not perfect, no political institution is perfect, but if we fail at keep our alliances strong, we fail period. At this point, the Democratic Party is the only party defending our institutions, our liberty and our constitution. Our enemies are the RW ideologues itching to unleash their revanchism by destroying progress made ( KEY word there is PROGRESS MADE).

What you perceive as me ignoring history is me prioritizing what matters post at this point - and I have never expected perfectionism in politics. It is a distraction, because while we flagellate ourselves and circle the wagons, the republicans take power.

And I am also a good democrat who understands the painful process of reform.

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Response to JHan (Reply #206)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 05:11 AM

210. Who said anything about demonizing corporations?

Advocating consumer protections and financial system protections does not require any "demonization."

Advocating a progressive tax system doesn't require demonization.

And working for incremental change doesn't have to mean shutting everyone up on the REAL end point. For example, just because you are working to write/pass a bill that moves us closer to universal health care doesn't mean you have to shut up about the real goal -- universal health care.

Unfortunately, we have people in positions of leadership in the party who do not see it that way. Who want their outspoken colleagues to "shut up" about things like Universal Health Care, or shut up about taking serious steps to end mass incarceration, or shut up about restoring the right to vote for felons, or .. there are many, many examples.

Revisiting past mistakes is all about challenging the beltway group think that feeds silence and inaction on things they should be vocally fighting for right now.

For example, every single time someone says Repeal/Replace Obamacare, leaders in the party should be saying "Hell yes! Replace it with Universal Health Care!" And make the case. Loud and proud.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #210)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 09:31 AM

241. You said it,

You labeled them


"And in the political world, corporatists/reactionaries are the "bad guys."
Democrats are supposed to be the "good guys" "
but if I misinterpreted what you said, then okay, we have no argument there.

And working for incremental change doesn't have to mean shutting everyone up on the REAL end point. For example, just because you are working to write/pass a bill that moves us closer to universal health care doesn't mean you have to shut up about the real goal -- universal health care.


Shutting everyone up? Yes there have been heated discussions on single payer because it is complicated. There are many different universal care coverage options, different models we can look at. We also have a unique system here, compared to parliamentary democracies in the world, where States must get on the same page with whatever single payer health care coverage plan we wish to implement.

There are several things we MUST do and CONTINUE to do

1) argue the benefits of taxation for those in higher income brackets ( which we al ready do). Better access to healthcare means better quality of life and higher productivity.

2) Investing back in the commons, emphasizing the importance of a social dividend and starting the conversation about a Universal Basic Income.

3) Removing corporate welfare - which despite a high rate of 34% - still exists - while acknowledging that we're in competition with countries with a significantly lower tax rate than ours. Reform the corp tax code so it makes sense.

and we can think of other things re infrastructure, schools etc . Democrats are typically on the right side of these issues, even Obama wanted some infrastructure spending going but he faced obstruction from REPUBLICANS.

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Response to JHan (Reply #241)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:56 PM

274. All good

Last edited Sun Mar 12, 2017, 07:30 AM - Edit history (3)

I think the only thing we are talking past each other on is the fact that the leadership doesn't just refuse to talk about getting "big things" like universal health care, etc. They have been actively "sitting on" the more vocal members of the caucus in an effort to "reign in" efforts to garner co-sponsors and publicize the existence of bills like Conyers' on health care. They believe it is for the "good of the party" -- that we "can't do it so stop rocking the boat, there will be 'backlash.'" They are horribly mistaken.

I will continue to challenge that attitude, along with so many of the other irrational rationalizations that are invoked for inaction and silence in so many areas, until my dying breath. They must talk about the "big stuff." And they need to engage the American people in making it happen.

"WE can do this" is a clarion call that people respond to. The leadership is far too wrapped up in figuring out what "they" (the right) will "let" us do. They've forgotten that the way to get things done is to advocate -- loudly and proudly -- for your ideas. That is how you inspire and engage the public, build the political will, and enlist voters to put you in office to accomplish those things that will make a REAL difference in their lives. And you don't need to have nailed down the way to get to get there to do it. Define the goal, build the political will to commit to achieving it, and then you can hammer out the how.

I am being attacked because I "hate Democrats." That is so far off the mark it is laughable. I love this party. So many of the people who call themselves Democrats are amazing heroes. If I did not believe the leadership was capable of getting past the group think that has kept them from taking on the tough fights they must take on if they ever hope to win unbeatable majorities, I would have given up long, long, ago.

Am I 'upset' with them? You bet. When someone you love is doing themselves self-harm, it is extremely upsetting. Like someone whose loved one is an addict, I am compelled to do everything in my power to save them from themselves. You don't give up on 'family."

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Response to pat_k (Reply #274)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:41 PM

285. Ok. I get that..

I figured we want the same things. I just don't think the Dems are the enemy right now, and I get wary of attacks that paint Democrats as the enemy.

"I think the only thing we are talking past each other on is the fact that the leadership doesn't just refuse to talk about getting "big things" like universal health care, etc. They have been actively "sitting on" the more vocal members of the caucus in an effort to "reign in" efforts to publicize the existence of bills like Conyers on health care forward. They believe it is for the "good of the party" -- that we "can't do it so stop rocking the boat, there will be 'backlash.'" They are horribly mistaken. "


We're on the same page on a lot of things, but this is is what concerns me and why I'm wary of directing anger towards Democrats or tarring them for past sins, hence my relevancy comment:

The Overton window has been so dragged to the right that hatred of immigrants, the building of a wall, travel bans that amount to a muslim ban and an immigrant crime registry are now directives from a president of the United States and either downplayed or rationalized by pundits and endorsed by millions of voters. The status quo under Obama, that was so attacked last year in anti establishment arguments ( which is why I always considered those arguments so dangerous), has now been replaced by Trump's status quo - the dismantling and defunding of agencies which improve quality of life.

I understood what Obama meant when he implored us to not make perfect the enemy of good, because we were on track to get the things I would like to see: A healthcare system providing even greater coverage, undoing GOP suppression of the vote and gerrymandering, reversing Citizens United, valuing our partnerships in the world, ending corporate welfare, restricting religious imposition in our public schools, ensuring the wealthy pay their fair share in taxes etc, reproductive rights and gender rights.

I do think Democrats need to be more aggressive, but there are also democrats in deep red states making tough political calculations and their elections are coming up pretty soon. I agree with Keith Ellison when he said he wants the party to be the party of local government, we've been far too focused on Presidential elections, and that tunnel vision ( and stupidity) is partly responsible for Democrats abandoning President Obama in a census year in 2010.

So support at the grassroots level is critical, either through volunteering, funds and activism plus Trump is the perfect foil to illustrate the contrast between us and republicans:

- we don't demonize immigrants.
- we believe in the importance of a social dividend and we're the only party to really talk about income disparity - hell Donald Trump believes wages are too high.
- we believe in expansion of health care
- we believe in regulations that protect and conserve the environment: clean air and clean rivers and clean water.
- we believe in the benefits of taxation as a moral good that sees to the good health of the whole.
- we believe citizens should have a path to prosperity through improving the quality and standards of public schools, easing debt students are confronted with ( complicated task but doable) etc etc heck my ideal is a UBI but I know that conversation ain't happening anytime soon. We need majorities in congress to set policy in an aggressive way - we MUST give our presidents FDR majorities to get FDR like policies.

And we have to keep repeating those things over and over as the moral bankruptcy of the Trump administration and the GOP continues to be exposed.

What I don't want us to get mired in are petty squabbles and cutting our noses to spite our faces, we can't afford to be demoralized, we already HAVE the better arguments.

EDIT: It's insane that we won the popular vote, that most Americans agree with us, and yet here we are. I can't help but think that the cognitive errors Republicans have so successfully pitted against voters, have worked on liberals as well, where we engage in a type of self loathing that makes us ignore whatever hard work has been done by those toiling in the fields because it doesn't meet some arbitrary standard of perfection..

We're facing a well oiled well financed Koch brothers opposition and GOP machinations that disenfranchise countless americans, yet we bash ourselves, as though we're to blame, even tearing down our decent presidents by tearing apart their legacy and bashing our politicians, often needlessly and for the slightest of reasons.

It just strikes me as inane and self defeating.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #188)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 05:06 PM

300. Good post. My awareness started with seeing the body bags from Vietnam...

on the evening news, and trying, as a child, to process what was going on. Watergate was definitely another influence, watching my parents' reaction to Nixon, et al. So many influencing events between then and Dubya's selection, when I wanted to curl up in the fetal position knowing we were headed for some very dark days, thanks to new life breathed into those corrupt bastards from way back.

But, hey, it's all ancient history! Forward! Circle D!

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Response to bravenak (Reply #98)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:52 AM

141. And that diminishes it... how? (n/t)

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #141)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:00 AM

145. if you want to whip the democratic party over some shit over 3 decades ago here.. hell..

why not 60 years ago? Or 80 years ago? Why even stop - why not go through the annals of time and pick and choose your grudges to lambaste a party in 2017.

Don't expect me to join you, I'm in my 20's and things are critical right now, right here - I got 99 problems and the op's issues ain't any of them.

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Response to JHan (Reply #145)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:21 AM

148. Newsflash: It *ain't* all about you... things are CRITICAL right now for all ages.

Try to grasp how pivotal the '80s were politically. Seriously. LEARN FROM HISTORY.

Right now the Democratic Party controls a record low number of states. Do you think that magically happened overnight? At the national level we lost PA, MI and WI, FFS. You may be satisfied with those results, but I'm not. At what point do you think the party should be "lambasted"? Perhaps when we lose control of ALL states?

I'll say it again: Anyone who reduces anger over Iran-Contra to a "grudge" is not someone to be taken seriously.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #148)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:23 AM

149. I just answered all this in the other post.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #148)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 05:28 AM

211. I was not of age to vote then, but I was alive at least.

What you're missing is how many people who were of age to vote then ignored Iran-Contra. It wasn't even a blip on their radar. Really, those are the people your, and the OP's, anger should be directed at. You're all about the Democratic leadership, but where we're the people in the streets raising hell? Who was there holding their feet to the fire? It's the fault of all the people in this country who chose to turn a blind eye. They didn't care to push the issue, even if you did. Where was the angry majority of people? Be honest, it was a bad time in our history where people were accepting of the extreme Rightwing ideology. That's where real grassroots activism comes into play, and was needed but was absent at the time. Beating up supporters of the opposition party some 30 years later has no real merit. Really, there's zero good to come from something like this decades later. That ship sailed long ago. Yes, we can learn from history, but it's not the fault of people not of age then. It's the fault of people who were adults back then. I'm sorry, but that's just a fact.

Seriously, think about it. It's foolish at best, to beat up people who had zero power to effect change back then. I understand you're still upset, I'll be upset over Bush and Trump era travesties for ages, but I hope I don't attack people who were minors when it took place later down the road just because I can't accept that people of my, personal generation messed up. That's just divisive, and unhelpful.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #88)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:33 PM

270. You two are both blind to why trying to fight Trump with Democratic politicians

Is like trying to win a swordfight with a limp noodle.



I expect everyone, including the Democratic politicians you think are so precious that they can't stand any criticism, even criticism that is essentially cheerleading them to actually try to fight Trump, to fight against this tyrannous regime. But I expect people with a lot more power than I have to fight even that much HARDER. It is their responsibility. And pointing out that we want them to win in their struggle against fascism (not just keep their powder dry and complain about losing later) should not be a controversial position.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #270)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:39 PM

271. Funny how the folks with the least wins think they have all the answers on winning

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #271)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:45 PM

289. Funny how the folks that keep losing...House,....Senate.....SCOTUS......State governorships...

Refuse the help of the wing of the party that has consistently been correct ...about WMD, Iraq, Deregulation of Wall st., in the past, and sided with the majority that wanted a public option for the ACA and background checks for gun ownership.

But lets just keep believing in the Third Way corporatists in the DLC that have been steering the ship for decades now decidedly right shall we? Snubbing the progressive wing's choice as the head of the DNC by running at the last minute the high profile establishment backed Perez and voting him in was just the latest. That's not a hill to stand on, but its an example of the fact that the progressive wing is never even given the reigns, despite being right in hindsight, almost every time.

Isn't it about time to trust the people? Enough of the chicken littles and debbie downers and the no we can'ts. Build it and they will come.

That's the difference, some have no faith that we could actually do anything more than react to Republican policies, stomp our feet. Because we dare not upset the applecart by introducing our own policies if someone on some message board might call them "far left". (Even though they are simply policies adopted by every other western democracy)

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #289)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 05:06 AM

397. "Build it and they will come."

Says it all in a nutshell.

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Response to JHan (Reply #83)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:02 PM

97. Excellent, JH.. and Just to be Clear about the "extreme left".. "not" giving us trump as the OP ..

opines.. BULLSHIT.


Jill Stein spoiled the 2016 election for Hillary Clinton


Jill Stein's voters in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin helped Donald Trump win the White House

snip//

For those who worried that insufficient liberal support for Hillary Clinton would wind up electing Donald Trump, you were right.

According to a tweet from Cook Political Report’s Dave Wasserman on Thursday, the margin of difference separating the president-elect from his Democratic opponent Hillary Clinton in the three “Blue Wall” states — Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan — was less than the total number of votes received by Green Party nominee Jill Stein in each of those states:

More..
http://www.salon.com/2016/12/02/jill-stein-spoiled-the-2016-election-for-hillary-clinton/


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Response to Cha (Reply #97)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:20 PM

113. they should collectively slap themselves.

cuz the truth hurts.

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Response to JHan (Reply #113)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:22 PM

114. They should most certainly give a shit.. but they don't.

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Response to JHan (Reply #83)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:09 PM

106. +2

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Response to JHan (Reply #83)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:57 AM

142. +1000

Keep it up!

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Response to pat_k (Reply #70)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 08:04 PM

325. The point is to get more of us to run locally to get in. Not forcing ones already in to vote no.

Look, you're still playing catch up if you want the Democrats to become more "pure" once they're on the national level. By the time they've been elected as a House member, or a Senator, or heck, even a Governor, they're already locked into the politics that got them there - which means money and incrementalism.

Politics is the art of negotiation, not a football game. People forget that. It's a mix of balancing local needs and philosophies to create a greater federal good for everyone.
Republicans have forgotten that in their mad tactic of, as a party, marching lockstep into the embrace of Fascism so they can punish Democrats for the New Deal and Nixon.

To defeat the current Teapublicans, we need to 1) Work hard to nurture and elect more local candidates to unseat the Teaparty groundswell that took over back in 2010, and 2) Work hard to ensure these local candidates understand civics and the way governing works, rather than playing a game for money.
Which means we have to find a common ground between the people who are dedicated to specific projects and causes, and people who have to work with the world as it is, rather than the way they want it to be.
And we move forward together.

But if we keep saying to ourselves "Well, Hillary" or "Well, Bernie"... If we keep fighting the last election and talking about the surface what went wrong instead of what the reality is, where we need to be, where we should be, and where we can stand to start out from, we will keep losing.

We listen to our enemies and our detractors, fine. But we don't let them define us; we look for the weaknesses in their screeds for pick our arguments - if we choose to engage them rather than tell them "go on with your bad self and cry out about the world in your Snowglobe".

Because sure as everyone shits, I can tell you this - the Republicans and the Greens are both more comfortable in a world that is small and manageable for them, not a world that encompasses everyone, in which we have to deal fairly with EVERYONE.

If we as democrats ignore 70% of the electorate for a precious 15% and an equally concerning 15%, we will lose.
We do have to start out from the median, and show that we can chew gum and walk at the same time, that we can GOVERN instead of rule, that we can work with everyone for the whole instead of breaking down the country into disparate causes.

And lucky for us, polling and surveys show us that the middle is actually center-left.

I can start from there. Can you?

Yes, I'm a snowflake - part of nature and the rest of the Universe. Not some little bit of glitter protected with my buddies in a snowglobe.

Haele

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Response to haele (Reply #325)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 08:35 PM

333. It is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time.

1) Work hard to nurture and elect more local candidates to unseat the Teaparty groundswell that took over back in 2010, and
2) Work hard to ensure these local candidates understand civics and the way governing works, rather than playing a game for money.

Which means we have to find a common ground between the people who are dedicated to specific projects and causes, and people who have to work with the world as it is, rather than the way they want it to be.
And we move forward together.


Of course, that is all a given. But, it is also not enough. Transformation of the party from the top is also needed to inspire those who have opted out to opt back in.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8771920

It is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #70)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 10:57 AM

433. In our system apathy is not an unreasonable response.

Unlike modern democratic systems that give people the right to vote their conscience and get some representation for what they believe... and where there's civic equality in the vote so each votes weighs the same in terms of representation... our system is not just and antidemocratic mess, but primitive in comparison. In lacking those features the system provides very real DISincentives to voting... up to 49.9% of the votes mean nothing in a winner take all election... more in the case of the so-called spoiler effect where a split majority can lead to a minority candidate winning. In our system the those representing the MINORITY can govern... as we seen with the Bush and Trump Juntas... and with the antidemocratic Senate. Then there's the fact that ultra tiny minorities can block all reform. In this case corporate power can fill the vacuum. We're all brought up to believe our system was the work of genius, but it really makes a mockery of the concept of self-government. On some level the people know that yet can't reconcile that with the fact our system is supposed to be that great. In our system apathy is not an unreasonable response.

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Response to eniwetok (Reply #433)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 03:22 PM

443. I would LOVE to see instant runoff/ ranked choice voting in primaries!!

State parties control the method for selecting the nominee. If State Democratic Parties started implementing ranked choice it would put IRV/choice voting into the national spotlight. Once in the public mind, It just makes so much sense I think we would see it quickly spread to local, than state, and eventually fed elections. This is another of those areas that keeping the ultimate goal-- IRV/ranked choice at every level -- firmly in the spotlight as we work to implement within our own party.

A girl can dream anyway!

I'd also love to see more states join the National Popular Vote compact!
http://www.nationalpopularvote.com

There are arguments that it may not withstand constitutional challenge, but even just having it in place and struck down would spur action forward on amending the constitution. And that is of course the ultimate goal... one of those goals we keep the spotlight on as we do whatever we can to move toward that goal.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #443)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 05:42 PM

453. We need DEMOCRATIC elections... and IRV is crucial...

I started a thread about it http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028735280

Dems need to walk and chew gum at the same time. NPV is a longshot... with big problems I've already mentioned. But what Dems SHOULD also be doing is taking a long term... 50 year view of finally making the Constitution democratic. But the amendment formula is so absurd it makes the Constitution virtually reform proof except for minor tweaks... and demographic trends are making the system more antidemocratic. Where once the population differential between the largest and smallest state was 17ish to 1, it's now about 70 to 1... and it gotten to the point states with less than 4% of the US population can block any reform... that is if an amendment ever gets sent to the states. To do so it has to run the gauntlet of the antidemocratic Senate where 18% of the population gets 52% of the seats.

If Dems are to stand for something it must be DEMOCRATIC LEGITIMACY of elections and government before an antidemocratic Constitution that is robbing the majority of the right to govern. And the first step is to DEFINE DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES... something virtually NO Dem wants to do. People deserve representation... not states because in the end this is nothing but a vote weighting/dilution scheme... similar to how the Jim Crow South negated the Black vote.

Of course the other option to reform is to shock the system... say that Cal, the state most DISenfranchised by our system threatens secession unless the Constitution is reformed. This may be the ONLY alternative since I don't think that 50 year strategy would work.

Back in 1787 the Framers we charged with fixing the broken Articles... and realized they could not be fixed. They proposed a new system but to propose it meant violating the amendment process in the Articles... the supreme law of the land. It's time we got up the intellectual courage to critique our system. Maybe progressive activists can have a Constitutional Convention propose a modern system for discussion should that day Cal DOES threaten secession.

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Response to eniwetok (Reply #453)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 07:41 PM

458. YES!!

Achieving big things, like revamping constitutional institutions that no longer serve us, does not necessarily require a step-by-step 50-year plan (or any specified length plan). If we find ways to confront the electorate with questions that promote clarity and consensus on some of the basic principles that define us as a nation, the momentum to reform institutions that are antithetical to those basic principles can build very quickly.

Currently our policy debates are driven by questions like: "Can a proposal to raise taxes by X pass? Do we have the votes to apply those dollars to Y?" (where Y is some modest program that completely fails to address a massive underlying problem).

Those types of questions are all well and good, but they MUST NOT be the ONLY questions. We need to pull debates on policy out of swamp of "this is where we are and the only thing that that is remotely possible is making this little tweak." Of course "practicalities" must be considered, be we are so lost in the swap of practicality that we have completely lost our bearings on fundamental principles.

The types of questions we must be confronting the electorate with are things like: "As a nation, are we committed to the principle of X? In what ways are we failing to manifest our commitment to X?"

It's off the topic of constitutional reform, but my post on the need to put universal health care front and center provides an example.

Re: NPV. I agree it's a longshot and flawed, but working within our states to pass the legislation has value. It provides a context for a "rubber meets the road" decision. To take a position -- whether to support or oppose signing onto the compact -- elected officials and members of the public must answer the question "Should every eligible voter in the nation be given an equal voice, regardless of which state they live in?"

If one answers that question Yes, one is making a commitment to a vital basic principle. And commitment to that principle necessarily has implications beyond solving the "electoral college" problem. The electoral college is an outgrowth of inequities that pervade the system. There are undoubtedly other concrete proposals we could be working to implement that would drive the public discussion in the right direction. NPV is just something that is already 'in the works' and therefore can be capitalized on.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #458)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 10:11 PM

485. are you really thinking this through?

Achieving big things, like revamping constitutional institutions that no longer serve us, does not necessarily require a step-by-step 50-year plan (or any specified length plan).

We have a 230 year history where NONE of the antidemocratic aspects of our system has EVER been reformed. Here's a breakdown...
http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/2012/11/do-those-27-amendments-prove-we-can.html
keep in mind that when I used the term democratic... it's in two difference senses... one is allowing more to vote... vs a system where votes are weighed differently... allowing the minority to govern.

When I talk about a 50 year strategy that means a systematic breakdown of the obstacles to reforming our system.. one being changing the amendment formula so it's based on PEOPLE not states. Ultimately the ONLY way to make our system democratic is to abolish state suffrage... the source and that concept is so intertwined with the fabric of the Constitution... like the Articles... it might be impossible to reform playing by the rules.

There's a book written a few years back called the Frozen Republic... and that's what we are. As for: "The electoral college is an outgrowth of inequities that pervade the system.

No sure what inequities you speak of. Is it that the whites in the slaves states would not have much say in the new system?

If one reads through the minutes of the so-called Constitutional Convention... one comes across this little tidbit from Madison... July 19th 1787. Madison argues for a popular vote, but...

The people at large was in his opinion the fittest in itself. It would be as likely as any that could be devised to produce an Executive Magistrate of distinguished Character. The people generally could only know & vote for some Citizen whose merits had rendered him an object of general attention & esteem. There was one difficulty however of a serious nature attending an immediate choice by the people. The right of suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of the Negroes. The substitution of electors obviated this difficulty and seemed on the whole to be liable to fewest objections.


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Response to eniwetok (Reply #485)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 10:19 PM

486. My only point is that absent clarity and sufficient consensus on basic principles, there...

... is no political will to take ANY step toward making those principles manifest.

Of course it could take 25, or 50, or 100 years. Or there could be a snowballing effect that moves things faster.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #486)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 11:41 PM

489. there's will be no snowball effect...

I've been debating liberal Dems on Usenet, here and at other "progressive" forums for close to 20 years. I know that a key obstacle is a Civic Religion that holds we have the best system in the world... and we mere mortals dare not question it.

Dems SHOULD be the party that promotes democratic values. Yet it just doesn't happen here in the US. We NEED to know why... just as we NEED to know why voting rates in the US are pathetic... about 35% of the voting age population (VAP) votes in off year elections. This means Newt's 1994 "Republican Revolution" represented the "consent" of only about 18% of the VAP.

We can expect some Dem reaction to the Trump Junta... but when you claim it may take up to 100 years to make the most basic reforms to our system... and that's akin to my saying it there should be a 50 year strategy. But THAT IS A CONDEMNATION OF OUR SYSTEM. Other western nations can deal with the defects in their system... yet we can't. Why? Because the Constitution is a straightjacket as were the Articles of Confederation. The founding generation was not bound by any Civic Religion and had the courage to stratagize how to reform the unreformable.

We lack that courage. Maybe you're different.

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Response to eniwetok (Reply #489)

Sat Mar 11, 2017, 01:25 AM

493. I am an optimist at heart.


The contradiction between 1) the principles/beliefs we subscribe to (principle of equal representation and belief in the power of self-government) and 2) reality (unequal representation and barriers to ACTUALLY self-governing) is stark. it's a contradiction so stark it cries out for something to be done. unfortunately, it is also a contradiction that few give a passing thought to. I have the naive notion that if we can figure out ways to confront people with the contradiction, the impulse to act will naturally follow (and could be channeled). Of course, nothing is that simple. As a country we are pretty good at blinding ourselves to many of these types of "elephant in the room" problems.

Of course, being an optimist, I am unlikely to give up making some sort of an effort to shine a spotlight.


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Response to pat_k (Reply #493)

Sat Mar 11, 2017, 11:40 AM

509. where's the evidence Dems believe in....

The contradiction between 1) the principles/beliefs we subscribe to (principle of equal representation and belief in the power of self-government) and 2) reality (unequal representation and barriers to ACTUALLY self-governing) is stark.

Where's the evidence Dems believe in either equal representation or self-government? (The latter assumes there can never be government run by those who represent the minority) This is my point.... Dems... especially liberal Dems wear democracy on their sleeves as the Right does the flag. We see this is all those liberal groups that have democracy in their name like Democracy For America. Yet when one looks at their actual positions NONE that I've found think democracy is more than mere tweaks to an antidemocratic system... and never making the system democratic. They maintain this intellectual dissonance by never bothering to define what democratic principle are. Not even a Bernie Sanders makes the connection that most of what he rails about is rooted in an antidemocratic system... one designed on class warfare giving the "minority of the opulent", to borrow Madison's term, a veto over the People. The entire system was designed to give elites a veto over the People at every turn. When the minority can govern or tiny minorities can block the majority, it's no wonder we have runaway corporate power and growing wealth inequality. It's made worse by a cowardly Democratic Party that after 35 years still has no response to starve the beast and other far Right outrages
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028774535

I can see how the Right has made progress in their strategic plan developed in the 70s to turn America into Amerika, but I'm not optimistic in the least about Dems can do the same. They get distracted by micro issues like trans bathrooms and can't even stand up for civic equality in the vote... something CRITICAL to the moral legitimacy of government itself. Our antidemocratic system poses a very real EXISTENTIAL THREAT to Dem programs... and still not a peep about real democratic reforms. They have no long range vision of where to take the US in 50 years so they develop no strategy to get there. Dems have no master strategy to regain control of runaway corporate power. Dems tend to have no plans past the next presidential elections... and it shows. My ONLY hope is to shock the system such as Cal threatening secession...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028380818





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Response to pat_k (Reply #40)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:32 PM

77. It is to get more voters

and we can do that and be part of it rather than sit back and judge the party leaders because they didn't do things our way. We can do things our way. No party leader, unless you become one yourself, is going to do it your way. Especially when they have experience you don't have.

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Response to treestar (Reply #77)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:26 PM

283. Dems will get more voters if the Dem leadership...

Last edited Fri Mar 10, 2017, 05:08 AM - Edit history (1)

... demonstrates courage of their convictions, lays out a vision of the big things we can accomplish, instills confidence that we can get it done, and enlists the help of the American people to elect Dems to make it happen.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:08 PM

52. +1000!

I don't get the constant Democrat bashing here.

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Response to mcar (Reply #52)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:23 PM

66. It's tiresome. It's why I'm trying to pull myself away from here

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #66)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:29 PM

73. Haven't we learned anything?

Makes me sad, angry and fearful.

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Response to mcar (Reply #73)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:50 PM

86. Me too. I'm at the point of simply ignoring them and not giving them traction anymore

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #86)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 05:29 PM

304. This thread is alive and well in spite of your "ignoring them"...

and not giving traction. Funny how that works.

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Response to mcar (Reply #52)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:41 PM

82. Bashing?

Last edited Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:48 AM - Edit history (1)

If pointing out where they've gone astray, and working with members of Congress who have been doing the right thing to get the leadership to take a stronger, more effective, and WINNING stance, is "bashing" then I guess I'm guilty.

And I suppose Clinton was "bashing" when he pointed out that:

“When people feel uncertain, they'd rather have somebody that's strong and wrong than somebody who's weak and right.”


I just want the leadership to really "hear" that message, and recognize that all their rationalizations for inaction over the years have done nothing but earn them a reputation as weaklings.

The thing is, Strong and Right is unbeatable. It's tragic that the leadership has gone out of it's way to suppress those in Congress who are acting on the courage of their convictions. I want them to stop doing that shit. We won't see change until there is some acknowledgement that what they have been doing -- things like fighting to stop the momentum for impeaching Bush, trying to keep Conyers from introducing Universal Health Care bill, and so on -- is INCREDIBLY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE, for all the reasons I stated.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #82)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:18 PM

110. thankyou pat_k for facing the storm paralized paranoid thinkers.

I too for the life of me do not understand this circling of the wagons and such a vitriol response to looking for ways to improve the party, make it more attractive to youth and to the progressive base...you know, those who are always proved right in hindsight 99% of the time. And even ......gasp.......thinking that maybe, just maybe there are things we can improve upon.

And THAT is how we ultimately destroy not only Trump, but the false hope of the extreme right.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #82)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:05 AM

160. Nothing brings out the claws more than...

pointing out how Woodchucks have gotten us to the disastrous situation we are today. Democrats fully control a record low SIX states all because of... Jill Stein! Or some such lazy thinking...

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Response to pat_k (Reply #82)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:48 PM

273. excellent post, excellent point

and exactly spot on.

Voters respond to strength, to fight, to grit.

fuck, Trump has NOTHING except pure ape dominance - not morality, not brains, not truth, not policy, not anything - except that he acted strong. and that was enough to propel him to almost win the election.

Just display a drop of dominance - FDR and Truman (and even Kennedy and Johnson) showed us how.

FIGHT!!!

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Response to bravenak (Reply #10)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:13 AM

182. Amen Bravenak!

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Response to bravenak (Reply #10)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 06:04 AM

214. you could say the same for people who want to spend their energy taking it to the "far left." Which

 


this post was responding to, wouldn't you say?

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Response to JCanete (Reply #214)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 06:51 AM

218. I can't help but wonder how many...

Last edited Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:34 PM - Edit history (1)

... meetings at Senate or Congressional offices Bravenak's been in.

I wonder how many doors, for how many campaigns, the ones who are railing against me have knocked on.

Over the years, I've only had meetings with Lautenberg's, Corzine's, Menendez', and Conyers' senior staff , but I'm guessing that's more than most who are railing against the OP. I've only volunteered for a couple dozen campaigns, knocked on a few hundred doors, made a few hundred calls. That's a lot less than many on this board, but I'm guessing that it may be more than most who attack me on some strange assumption that I don't actually DO anything but complain.

thedeanpeople, an organization I co-founded, was only responsible for about 15,000 faxes going to congress advocating Alito filibuster and an objection to the Ohio electors, but who's counting?

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Response to JCanete (Reply #214)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:58 PM

291. I wouldn't say it. We are fighting republicans constantly while they simply fight us

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #291)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 04:57 PM

298. that isn't true of this poster, and he's listed that over and over. It isn't true that nobody is

 

taking time away from the clear and present danger of a Trump Presidency to rant against people on the far left on this board either. If it's a problem its a problem people both sides of our own divide are perpetuating.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #10)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:53 PM

290. Get your head out of the sand.

We lost control of ALL branches of government and fully control a measly SIX states. This goes waaaay beyond Trump, but since you seem singularly focused -- go for it, "fight him." The rest of us will work on the party as a whole, at all levels of government... just don't get in the way.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #290)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 03:03 AM

386. All you have all insults.. maybe you just heed your own orders.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #9)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:57 PM

92. can you agree we should reform to fight Trump HARD???

 

I have nothing against your post, but we have a GOP/Trump problem NOW.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 09:25 PM

17. And, trying to absolve jill stein's LIES and part ownership of trump.

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Response to Cha (Reply #17)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 09:31 PM

24. Jill Stein has never been a friend of the democratic party

 

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Response to Cha (Reply #17)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 09:55 PM

45. If you bothered to actually read anything I've posted...

If you bothered to actually read anything I've posted over the last dozen years, instead of having some knee jerk reaction, you wouldn't accuse me of being a green party apologist.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #45)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:17 PM

60. All you have are insults.."The "extreme left" didn't give us Trump" stein owns a Chunk of it..

Dangerous#1 Dangerous#2 Dangerous#3













they damn well will.. sitting on their millions while the Planet goes to shite and people go hungry and Immigrants banned from the US by "the bumbler" according the ever present idiot, jill stein

We will not shut up about the danger of the LIAR stein.

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Response to Cha (Reply #60)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:24 PM

67. Where did you get the bizarre idea...

... that I would want to "shut you up" about the damage done by Stein?

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Response to pat_k (Reply #67)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:27 PM

71. The "extreme left" was part owner of giving us trump.

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Response to Cha (Reply #60)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:36 PM

80. Stein would be completely irrelevant to this discussion

because her share of the vote was miniscule. She was a joke of a candidate who specialized in self satire.

Her only relevance is that she sued for recounts when the spineless leadership wouldn't do it.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #80)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:52 PM

89. You're wrong.. stein won by more in Michigan, Pennsylvania, & Wisconsin

than Hillary lost.

Jill Stein spoiled the 2016 election for Hillary Clinton


Jill Stein's voters in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin helped Donald Trump win the White House

snip//

For those who worried that insufficient liberal support for Hillary Clinton would wind up electing Donald Trump, you were right.

According to a tweet from Cook Political Report’s Dave Wasserman on Thursday, the margin of difference separating the president-elect from his Democratic opponent Hillary Clinton in the three “Blue Wall” states — Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan — was less than the total number of votes received by Green Party nominee Jill Stein in each of those states:

More..
http://www.salon.com/2016/12/02/jill-stein-spoiled-the-2016-election-for-hillary-clinton/



So please disabuse pushing that fallacy now.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #80)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:31 PM

117. I'll say it again

The only vote you control is your own. Period.

Stein gained protest votes. In no way were those voters ever considering a vote for Trump or Clinton. Had Stein not been in the race, they'd have gone to Johnson or one of the other microparty candidates. Had no other candidates been in the race but Trump or Clinton, most of those voters would have abstained in the top race. Those votes never belonged to either Trump or Clinton and never would.

There is nothing you can do about this. You don't have to like it, but the only vote you control is your own.

Otherwise, it's like pundits and losing candidates in the other party complaining that if POC or women or poor folks or naturalized citizens or Democrats in general couldn't vote, their lousy candidates would have won. As if.

I'm sick of this blame game. If you want to know why Clinton isn't in the White House, look to James Comey, who is still sitting on everything he's got on Trump's Russian connections even after he torpedoed Clinton's campaign with innuendo less than a week before election day. You want to rail about a spoiler, pick him, not Stein or any of the other small party candidates, and certainly not the voters who had the gall to disagree with you and vote for one of them.



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Response to Warpy (Reply #117)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 03:21 AM

390. She LIED to get those votes... stein is a russian stooge.. if she were

a truth teller there would be no reason to vote for her damn a$$

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Response to bravenak (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 09:27 PM

19. Nailed it. Our outlooks and behaviors define

who we are politically, not our protestations of high mindedness. More than a little obviously also. I've put more people on full ignore today than the last month.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #19)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 09:30 PM

22. Yeah, I see they feeling themselves today

 

All over the place, they are repeating these same talking points.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #22)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 09:44 PM

35. They need to feel shame for their part in electing 45,

and that's impossible. Like him, they want respect they can't have, and, of course, massive forgetfulness as soon as possible.

The best we can hope for is that, politically speaking, more people will see political groups for what we are based on our behaviors, rather than just swallow whole what we say we are.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #35)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 09:49 PM

39. They will never feel bad for or admit their part in that

 

It would be nice to simply have some silence from those who refuse to assist in this fight againt a real oligarch. A putin puppet. I still think he was very involved in the russia hacking. I think people are starting to ignore those who refuse to help. We have a war to fight.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #39)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:09 PM

53. Silence would be great, and maybe they'll dislike

today's response enough to decide changing the subject is a good idea.

You're right, of course, that most will never admit their part in turning the nation over to right-wing extremists, but some may have some shame not compartmented entirely away yet.

I asked two or three times, who among them spent months adopting and spreading all those lies about Hillary's supposed corruption during the primary. My guess is if I searched back and looked most, but from out there... crickets. Nothing but crickets.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #53)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:19 PM

61. Oh yeah. That gets me

 

All that faux innocense, the 'who me' nonsense, the 'I'm just trying to help' crap. I wonder what woke them back up.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #39)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 05:13 AM

398. What "They" are you talking about?

It's sure not me.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #19)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:14 PM

57. How many meetings with Members of Congress have you attended?

I have been involved in face-to-face lobbying efforts on voter suppression, objection to the Florda electors, and filibustering Alito. I've worked on efforts coordinated by John Conyers office on lobbying for co-sponsors for impeachment, health care, and the effort to get Senator to join in the objection to the Ohio electors and of Bush. I've worked with Bob Fertig of democrats.com. I had the pleasure of knowing and working with Tim Carpenter, founder of PDA (may he rest in peace). I am currently gearing up to lobby for a filibuster of Gorsuch. I can't count the number of State and Federal election campaigns I've volunteered for (all Democrats).

Yes. Our behaviors define us.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #57)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 08:11 AM

232. So did you tell them their failure to impeach

Reagan, Bush and Bush were such moral failures? What did they say?

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Response to treestar (Reply #232)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 08:22 AM

235. The "Do you know who am AM?" defense is hilarious.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #235)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 10:12 AM

247. Also assuming no one else here has done anything like it

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Response to mcar (Reply #247)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:15 PM

278. No assumption. Just wondering.

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Response to treestar (Reply #232)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:14 PM

277. No. Focused on eliciting, and challenging, the rationalizations for inaction.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 09:35 PM

29. There are many reasons why Hillary lost.

Blaming the loss on the extremism left (whatever that may be) and questioning why someone would post an opinion on a Democratic site seems too Rush like for me. (If you don't support US you can leave) I want to hear criticism and ideas to fix what has been happening as of late so improvement can be made.

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Response to kacekwl (Reply #29)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:12 PM

55. I want to hear ideas from people who know how to win and know who the enemy is.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #55)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:56 PM

91. That would seem to support the OP's point then.

IT's pretty demonstrable that the "cower in the corner" approach hasn't been a winner and it hasn't taken the fight to the "enemy."

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #91)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:04 PM

100. And how has kicking Dems in the ass been a winner? It hasn't. The far left as not racked up

 

enough wins to force us to completely reform our party. When they do, they can expect more attention.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #100)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:05 PM

102. I wish someone would have kicked them into useful action long before now.

I long for the Democrats to be Democrats again.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #102)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:07 PM

104. I long for the far left to help or be silent.

 

Apoarentlywe have not been democrats by your view for years. Maybe you're not the model/archetype of democrats?

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Response to bravenak (Reply #104)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:09 PM

107. Maybe I am just old enough to remember when Democrats didn't buy into Reaganomics.

Or simply old enough to remember when we stood for things.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #107)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:38 AM

134. +1

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #107)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 06:32 AM

217. Thank You Gore1FL

Last edited Sun Mar 12, 2017, 07:38 AM - Edit history (1)

I LOVE your DU name.

I wonder how many of the people who are railing against my post were in the chamber on Jan 6, 2001.


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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #107)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 06:06 PM

307. Hey, there are still six states to lose!

Just be a *model* Democrat and don't make any waves!

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Response to bravenak (Reply #104)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 06:16 PM

309. The graphic below, since 1995, is not something to be proud of.

Sure we got Bill and Obama, but look at the shift:



Damn, look at those six decades of mostly sold blue! What up with that? Perhaps if the dreaded "far left" had been listened to rather than the party go the Woodchuck/Third Way/Wall Street Suck-up route, that graphic would look a helluva lot better, and Drumpf's fat ass wouldn't be sitting in the White House.

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Response to kacekwl (Reply #29)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:22 PM

64. thanks!

I have NEVER given up on the Democratic Party and am always mystified by the tone of some of the responses. If I didn't believe they had it in them to "do the right thing" I would have packed it in a long time ago. If my views somehow make me "not a Democrat" then John Conyers is not a Democrat, Paul Wellstone was not a Democrat, Stephanie Tubbs-Jones was not a Democrat, Barbara Boxer is not a Democrat. Barbara Lee is not a Democrat...

I could go on and on, but you get the idea.

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Response to kacekwl (Reply #29)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:31 PM

75. And, one reason is "extreme left" jill stein's LIES who owns a chunk of trump...

Dangerous#1 Dangerous#2 Dangerous#3













they damn well will.. sitting on their millions while the Planet goes to shite and people go hungry and Immigrants banned from the US by "the bumbler" according the ever present idiot, jill stein



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Response to bravenak (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 09:40 PM

33. Takeoff on that old Broadway hit: "A funny thing happened on the way to Democratic Underground".

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Response to George II (Reply #33)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:15 PM

59. lol

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #2)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 11:47 AM

260. Your response blows chunks

Only people who really love the Democratic party give a crap whether it actually ever FIGHTS! both for itself and for the people of the country.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #260)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:44 PM

266. They love it so much that they refuse to fight trump

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #266)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:01 PM

268. who is "they" ?

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #268)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:16 PM

269. If you dont know... That's too bad, cause I don't have time to repeat myself all day.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #269)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:00 PM

275. you apparently have more than enough time

especially to try to silence people who want Democratic politicians to effectively fight the GOP, and to show the voters that they fight and are worthy of support, loyalty, and solidarity _because_ they fight.

There is no margin in being right if you don't fight for what is right. And my perception of the party is very similar to the OPs.

And frankly, we all know why they don't fight - they've been gently bought by the same forces that make the GOP so rabid in their support for the very rich.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #275)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:22 PM

280. Not for you today. No time. Got class.

 

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Response to pat_k (Original post)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 08:30 PM

3. "We can learn from RW wingnuts" ?

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #3)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 09:14 PM

12. Not sure what the question is.

.Perhaps an example would help?

Leaders of the reactionary right don't stop talking about banning abortion, even though actually passing a federal law banning abortion is believed to be "impossible." They keep up a constant drum beat for banning, regardless of their chances of "winning." Their relentlessness has been paying off. By going for the "whole loaf," they keep the momentum going in "their direction." And they keep making headway toward the goal.

Leaders of the Democratic Party do the opposite. When they decide something is not "politically viable' they essentially stop talking about it. For example, there is no constant drum beat in the leadership for universal health care. The leadership actually makes an effort to suppress calls for universal health care because it is not "politically viable.

Instead of "going big" the Democratic leadership has been taking a "go small" approach. They set some small incremental change as the "endpoint" and try to whip up support for that. Unsurprisingly, they have a tough time building up the political will necessary to get the incremental changes done. When you take the spotlight off the big goal, it is very hard to build enough momentum to move toward that goal at all. Incremental change doesn't inspire passion. It only inspires passion when it can be celebrated as a concrete step toward the big goal you keep demanding/make the case for.

The effective approach is to keep the spotlight on the endpoint, make whatever headway you can, but NEVER stop demanding/making the case for the big goal.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #12)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:01 PM

48. I've commented several times, only once here, about my disappointment that single

Payer was swept off the table without committed arguments, of which there are many, and at least some show of fire and passion for it in the congress because ,really, it is the right and best solution. We should not be playing Russian roulette with peoples lives so the one percent can have another slice of pie. Maybe they should go live in Belize. So lots of people have jumped me over my position, but Bernie said tonight, on, I think it was All In,that we are the only civilized country that does not provide HC for everyone. He is going on the road again with Chris next week to talk about HC. I'm going to be obstinate of being committed to my position of single payer, and other democratic and progressive leaders need to work together. That is what they were elected for, to fight for their voters.

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Response to notdarkyet (Reply #48)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:25 PM

69. THERE WERE NEVER ENOUGH VOTES FOR SINGLE PAYER!

How many times does that need to be said before the talking point comes back around again and again. BERNIE EVEN ADMITTED THAT!!!!

How Many Times Does This Have To Be Posted?

Sanders: Single Payer Never Had A Chance

"It would have had 8 or 10 votes and that's it,"

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/sanders-single-payer-never-had-a-chance

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #69)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:58 PM

93. Forget single payer!

We wouldn't even fight for a public option.

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Response to cannabis_flower (Reply #93)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:37 PM

120. The public option was killed because of Joe Lieberman, that was his price for his vote

which was essential to hit the needed 60 votes. I just saw the BBC documentary, "Inside Obama's White House," the second episode ("Obamacare" is about how hard, a miracle really, it was to get a health care law passed. Or just keep being wrong, whatever.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #69)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:41 PM

121. This drives me nuts. How do people not know this?

Do they like to be wrong? Are they doing it on purpose? Are they allergic to history? It's so stupid.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #121)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:49 PM

123. I am beyond angry.

So many. So uninformed.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #69)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:09 AM

127. Just because you can't win you don't try?

Everyone loves an underdog, but everyone hates a quitter.

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Response to Exilednight (Reply #127)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:33 AM

132. Do the math.

NOT ENOUGH VOTES! 1+1=$#%^&*()_

Wow...you just called our Dems quitters? Really? So ya just want them to stand there flaying a dead horse that will never rise again...'cause ya know they are dead and instead of moving forward to make something work, YOU just want them to fail by beating and beating and beating that horse that will never rise.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #132)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 07:26 AM

227. Okay, let's follow your logic to its logical conclusion.

We don't have the votes to stop Trump from enacting TrumpCare and dismantling key parts of the ACA.

By your own logic, we shouldn't even try to stop him.

You can't have it both ways and say it's fine to fight this fight we know we will lose, but we shouldn't fight the other one because the math is against us.

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Response to Exilednight (Reply #227)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 06:08 AM

401. Seems to be a deafening silence in response.

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Response to pat_k (Reply #401)

Sat Mar 11, 2017, 03:08 AM

497. Really pat?

A deafening silence? Sorry all of us are not here 24/7.

You want an answer...read it above. I have no intention of retyping it for you.

Frankly, I don't appreciate the stealth attack from you and your friend.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #497)

Sat Mar 11, 2017, 03:33 AM

498. Apologies

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Response to Exilednight (Reply #227)

Sat Mar 11, 2017, 03:01 AM

496. We were talking about ACA!

WE NEVER HAD THE VOTES!

I am in no mood for your games. DO NOT F**K with me. Obama and Dump are two very different scenarios. Obama did not have the VOTE!. Dump? I will be fighting tooth and nail on any and EVERYTHING. I have serious questions about your tactics. I never once said we should give Dump a pass, yet here you are putting words in MY MOUTH. Just stop.

Okay, let's follow your logic to its logical conclusion.

We don't have the votes to stop Trump from enacting TrumpCare and dismantling key parts of the ACA.

By your own logic, we shouldn't even try to stop him.

You can't have it both ways and say it's fine to fight this fight we know we will lose, but we shouldn't fight the other one because the math is against us.


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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #496)

Sat Mar 11, 2017, 01:48 PM

510. I didn't put words in your mouth, I just followed your logic.

You want it both ways.

With logic like that it is no wonder why we keep losing elections.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #132)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 08:14 AM

234. They should not be blaming the Dems but out there

trying to convince the public - the voters aren't going to send the Congress people who will pass single payer until they are convinced to do that. People who are always on about the leadership don't seem to get that. As an individual I can't call my Senator and just demand he do what I want when most of his constituents don't agree.