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Mon Jan 9, 2017, 10:17 AM

Would there be uber-rich without freebies from government?

In a competitive economy hard work, education, smarts, etc certainly give one a competitive edge. But could we have any uber-rich if not for freebies from government?

Those freebies include intellectual property monopolies like patents, copyrights, and trademarks (Trump claims his "brand" is worth over 3 billion.) And there's free limited liability protections for corporate owners where the government can protect the private wealth of corporate owners while shafting legitimate creditors in the case of Chapter 7 bankruptcy. I've asked right wingers in other forums 20+ times why this protection should not be purchased as insurance from the private sector... and never got a reply.

Then there's the matter of infrastructure. What would Steve Job's concept for the iPhone be worth in an impoverished 3ed or 4th world nation without the prerequisite prior inventions or necessary infrastructure to exploit that idea?

What infrastructure? How about a nation secure from invasion provided by our military? How about law enforcement provided by various federal, state, and local agencies? What about our highways, harbors, and airports? How about a literate and educated workforce? What about a judicial system to oversee such laws? What about stable monetary and banking systems from which to get credit? What about a regulated stock market that permits corporations to raise capital? What about a system to insure public health... from clean water to vaccination programs to prevent pandemics? What of publicly financed basic research that saves companies money in R&D? What of a system that redistributes wealth so poor states or towns aren't left behind or a nation that permits workers enough income to provide demand for products?

When run well, the public and private sectors bootstrap each other to higher levels of prosperity. Without such infrastructures, that killer idea would be worth nothing. Again, great wealth might not even be possible.



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Reply Would there be uber-rich without freebies from government? (Original post)
eniwetok Jan 2017 OP
HAB911 Jan 2017 #1
world wide wally Jan 2017 #4
FarCenter Jan 2017 #2
libtodeath Jan 2017 #3
SammyWinstonJack Jan 2017 #5
eniwetok Jan 2017 #11
fescuerescue Jan 2017 #6
eniwetok Jan 2017 #7
fescuerescue Jan 2017 #9
eniwetok Jan 2017 #10
treestar Jan 2017 #8
eniwetok Jan 2017 #12

Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 10:26 AM

1. Republican Communism

Socialize the costs and privatize the profits

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Response to HAB911 (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 11:08 AM

4. Just like they want to do with public education

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Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 10:34 AM

2. Yes, remove government services and you get a scramble for assets by oligarchs and war-lords

 

E.g. collapsed USSR, Ukraine, and various failed states around the world.

A lack of government services does not lead to economic equality.

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Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 10:37 AM

3. No,most of the so called hard working rich are parasites.

They steal labor from people.
They steal revenue from the government.
They steal resources from mother earth.
They are criminals.

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Response to libtodeath (Reply #3)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 11:33 AM

5. Sounds like the Donald.

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Response to libtodeath (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 10, 2017, 11:20 AM

11. I wouldn't go that far... but...

I think the tax breaks unearned income gets should be reexamined. I don't mind targeted tax breaks if someone is making a risky investment in the public interests... such as medical or energy research. But the idea that someone should get a tax break speculating in commodities or equities is crazy. And why are capital gains exempt from payroll taxes? These are subsidies to the rich. The CBO calculated that 70% of the capital gains tax breaks go to the top 1%.

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Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 11:49 AM

6. Bankruptcy is defined in the consitution

And originated in medieval times as a more humane alternative to debt-slavery. Over time it evolved into common law and in the case of the US, it was adopted from common law to constitutional law - again an alternative to debt-slavery.

Essentially it long pre-dates private insurance, as a human rights defense, rather than a modern for-profit product.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #6)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 12:08 PM

7. what does that have to do with limited liability corporations?

Sure, there should be personal bankruptcy protections. But why should someone's personal wealth be protected from creditors just because they're hiding behind the corporate form? Why should this not be purchased as insurance from the private sector? Where is it a right to get this protection for free?

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Response to eniwetok (Reply #7)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 05:57 PM

9. Nothing at all.

I thought we were talking about bankruptcy laws.

Happy to change subject though. LLC is a separate legal concept. It exists in all 50 states.

I would guess, that insurance against all financial losses could never be profitable for an insurer. (unless of course they could buy such insurance from an even bigger fish, and so on).

I'm not an insurance guy, but that's my guess why it doesn't exist.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 10, 2017, 11:16 AM

10. insurnace deals with most all other risk...

There are some notable exceptions where government has stepped in such as with vaccines and Price Anderson for the nuclear industry... but generally insurance is market driven. If a company detects a corporation is engaged in risky behaviors it can change rates. But this doesn't answer the question of why We The People offer free limited liability protections to corporations... with the possible exception that like with patents, it's to serve a public function... and that states may have used the LLC as a lure to attract corporations.

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Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 12:11 PM

8. The Ayn Rand and Libertarian types

and right wingers generally pretend it would all work out just fine with no regulation. And they do overlook the benefits of society. I recall one of them telling me there was "no such thing as society."

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Response to treestar (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 12, 2017, 07:53 PM

12. right wingers are blind to the freebies...

While there are some radical libertarians who don't believe in government giving intellectual property monopolies... most right wingers and libertarians are blind to how the government they distrust if not hate, makes great wealth possible. They're also blind on how government put its thumb on the scale in favor of capital long before it tried to give labor any protection.

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