HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » "You people are not ...

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 10:31 PM

 

"You people are not pro-gun or free trade. If so you would applaud Mexican gun sales"

My message to conservatives in email and on boards. I have been called a detestable piece of shit twice.

They can't stand it when you hit them where it hurts.

16 replies, 2216 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 16 replies Author Time Post
Reply "You people are not pro-gun or free trade. If so you would applaud Mexican gun sales" (Original post)
banned from Kos Jun 2012 OP
clang1 Jun 2012 #1
Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2012 #2
aint_no_life_nowhere Jun 2012 #5
Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2012 #6
Loudly Jun 2012 #7
TheMadMonk Jun 2012 #9
aint_no_life_nowhere Jun 2012 #10
TheMadMonk Jun 2012 #12
aint_no_life_nowhere Jun 2012 #13
clang1 Jun 2012 #14
TheMadMonk Jun 2012 #15
banned from Kos Jun 2012 #16
freshwest Jun 2012 #8
morningfog Jun 2012 #3
Risen Demon Jun 2012 #4
B Calm Jun 2012 #11

Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 10:35 PM

1. re: banned from Kos

 

heheeh. Tell 'em the truth. They are not free trade, they are not free markets, they are jungle capitalists not much different from mobsters.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 10:36 PM

2. It's funny.

I ask if guns don't kill people and People kill people. Why blame the people who supplied the guns?

Why not put all the blame on the bad guy who pulled the trigger?

300 million guns on the streets and they want to blame the black guy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #2)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 10:41 PM

5. If the U.S. hadn't provided those guns to the drug gangs

wouldn't they have purchased them elsewhere, especially when it's so easy to walk into a gun store in Arizona and buy one? Does anyone really believe that the people who died would not have been killed anyway with guns from other sources?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to aint_no_life_nowhere (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 10:43 PM

6. Yep hundreds of million guns out there.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #6)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 11:22 PM

7. Plant a flag and go the other direction.

 

You don't want to be caught on the wrong side of the proliferation argument.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to aint_no_life_nowhere (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 11:50 PM

9. IIRC the specific mechanism was for ATF to require a gunstore owner...

 

...to deliberately violate laws and regulations to "walk" those guns into the gangs' hands.

Your argument seems to boil down to the free market argument that if someone is going to inevitably profit, then it only makes sense to see that "The Right Someones" to the profitting.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TheMadMonk (Reply #9)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 12:00 AM

10. I wrote nothing of the kind

My point is that whether or not the ATF had made those guns available, the drug gang could have obtained them and were obtaining them (hence the very reason behind the operation) through other sources. I'm arguing against those who lay the blame for the deaths uniquely at Holder's door. I was responding to the post questioning why we blame the gun from whatever source, ATF or not, instead of the guy who pulled the trigger. He would have pulled the trigger as easily on a Fast and Furious gun as a non-Fast and Furious gun. My post mentioned nothing about who profits.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to aint_no_life_nowhere (Reply #10)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 12:52 AM

12. It's his baby, because he either signed off on it, or failed in his duty...

 

...to exercise his oversight responsibilities with respect to an obviously ill conceived scheme.

Yes, it is all too likely that the gunmen would have sourced firearms elsewhere and carried out the same (or similiar) attacks regardless of ATF's involvement.

However, that argument does not absolve anyone. Whether or not it is impossible to stop a wannabe felon from obtaining (and using) a firearm if he's willing to make a great enough effort, makes no difference when it comes to prosecuting the IDENTIFIED SUPPLIER of a weapon used in the commission of a crime. If a person knowingly breaks the law in supplying a weapon, he becomes an accessory to ALL crimes subsequently committed with that weapon.

Holder was either complicit in a decision to deliberately walk firearms into the hands of criminals, with reasonable foreknowledge that innocents would suffer, or at best he's an ineffectual administrator who allowed himself to be kept ignorant of a major policy decision he bloody well should have known about.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TheMadMonk (Reply #12)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 01:28 AM

13. I agree with you in principle

and since we agree that Fast and Furious was probably not responsible for taking more lives than if it had not existed, since the same weapons were readily available for use from other sources, all we are talking about is principle and not cause and effect. Yes, it would have been better if Fast and Furious had not violated the law. But the way I look at it, the program had good intentions. I don't buy the Republican conspiracy theories about Obama wanting to use it to argue for gun control. The program sought to serve the greater good. Governments break the law all the time in trying to serve the greater good. If Fast and Furious had been successful in severely damaging the drug trade, thousands of lives might have been saved. While I agree that we are a nation of laws and we should uphold those principles, I can also understand the notion, although misguided, that the program might have helped end the terrible war taking thousands of lives in our southern neighboring country. I understand why war crimes such as the bombing of German civilians in World War II or a hit carried out by the mafia of an enemy agent on behalf of the CIA or FBI might also serve a greater good. There's no absolute black and white about this and it depends on what's at stake, case by case. I agree with you in principle that the U.S. government should not break the law even if it has no harmful effect, but if Fast and Furious had been highly successful at saving lives, I think I could easily compromise my principles when it comes to human life. My opinion about Fast and Furious is that it was not successful and that was its major problem. If it had been successful, Republicans would be trumpeting its success as a Bush operation, whether it broke the law or not.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to aint_no_life_nowhere (Reply #13)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:22 AM

14. re: I agree with you in principle

 

Wow pretty twisted logic. Guess diplomatic incidents caused were also only matters of 'principle'. Same with all the crime scenes where the weapons have been found.


ATF: 68,000 guns in Mexico traced to U.S.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/atf-68000-guns-in-mexico-traced-to-us/2012/04/26/gIQAtSz9kT_story.html



Under the Obama administration, the ATF has undergone a management shake-up and ­Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. has called Fast and Furious a flawed operation.

I find it disappointing that Mueller is even still around.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/family-of-ice-agent-slain-in-mexico-files-wrongful-death-claim-against-us-government/2012/06/20/gJQAi6j1qV_story.html

named several supervisors at the agencies and FBI Director Robert Mueller and Attorney General Eric Holder.



According to the claims, two AK-47 assault rifles bought in Texas and smuggled into Mexico were used by the attackers to fire more than 90 rounds at the men. Lawyers for the agents said the government’s practice of allowing U.S.-bought weapons to be taken into Mexico as part of broader gun trafficking investigations involving Mexican cartels allowed the weapons used in this case to be smuggled across the border.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to aint_no_life_nowhere (Reply #13)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 12:15 PM

15. No. There is cause and effect. Your whole FUCKING government is full of it.

 

"We're American." "We're special." "We can and will do as we damned well please."

Iran Contra and other CIA involvement in the drug trade. Cambodia and Laos.

More and more. Higher and deeper.

And guess what? The modern Republican/Teabagger is the direct product of what you claim to be "...trying to serve the greater good."

They've been allowed to get away with murder (literally so all too often) so many times now, that they truly believe it's their god given right to do as they damed well please.

The rule of law applies to ALL, or ultimately it will apply to NONE.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TheMadMonk (Reply #15)

Fri Jun 22, 2012, 07:15 PM

16. What you describe is called American Exceptionalism

 

We have "rules" for us and you people in the rest of the world have rules.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #2)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 11:31 PM

8. +1


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 10:40 PM

3. That is succinct and funny as hell. I love it.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 10:40 PM

4. They just want the black guy out of their white house

A black guy who speaks better English, has a higher IQ, and the thinking capacity beyond 80s Hollywood machismo.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 12:11 AM

11. Good slap!

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread