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Wed Dec 7, 2016, 02:20 AM

Emboldened by Trump win, Ohio passes "heartbeat" law banning abortion at 6 WEEKS.

All that is required now is Kasich's freakin' signature.


House joins Senate in approving heartbeat abortion bill By Catherine Candisky, Randy Ludlow & Jim Siegel The Columbus Dispatch • Tuesday December 6, 2016 10:29 PM

The election of Donald Trump emboldened majority Republicans in the Ohio General Assembly to pass the strictest abortion law in the nation Tuesday.

In a surprise move in the final days of the lame-duck session, the Senate and House adopted the Heartbeat Bill — long sought by some abortion opponents — to outlaw abortions once a fetal heartbeat can be detected, generally about six weeks into pregnancy.

Previous attempts to pass the bill failed over concerns that it would be ruled unconstitutional in the federal courts, as have similar laws in two other states.

"A new president, new Supreme Court appointees change the dynamic, and there was consensus in our caucus to move forward," said Senate President Keith Faber, R-Celina, when asked why the measure suddenly surfaced to the shock of objecting Democrats.

more at link



On a personal note: I'd like to take this chance to ONCE AGAIN THANK THE ASSHOLES OF JPR and every other fumducker that helped land Hair Twitler in office and empowered jack-wits like these. Nicely done. You got what you wanted, and this is just the beginning. Good for you.







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Reply Emboldened by Trump win, Ohio passes "heartbeat" law banning abortion at 6 WEEKS. (Original post)
Maru Kitteh Dec 2016 OP
Cha Dec 2016 #1
Maru Kitteh Dec 2016 #16
The_Casual_Observer Dec 2016 #2
Zing Zing Zingbah Dec 2016 #12
shraby Dec 2016 #3
Maru Kitteh Dec 2016 #4
uponit7771 Dec 2016 #6
anneboleyn Dec 2016 #10
gratuitous Dec 2016 #22
treestar Dec 2016 #27
Solly Mack Dec 2016 #5
Aviation Pro Dec 2016 #7
Warren DeMontague Dec 2016 #8
Maru Kitteh Dec 2016 #9
Warren DeMontague Dec 2016 #20
BainsBane Dec 2016 #11
Maru Kitteh Dec 2016 #14
MineralMan Dec 2016 #13
Demsrule86 Dec 2016 #15
Hortensis Dec 2016 #17
Maru Kitteh Dec 2016 #18
Hortensis Dec 2016 #19
Maru Kitteh Dec 2016 #23
Hortensis Dec 2016 #29
Maru Kitteh Dec 2016 #30
ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #34
Warren DeMontague Dec 2016 #36
Hortensis Dec 2016 #37
Warren DeMontague Dec 2016 #38
etherealtruth Dec 2016 #40
Warren DeMontague Dec 2016 #21
phylny Dec 2016 #24
ecstatic Dec 2016 #25
Auggie Dec 2016 #26
Guilded Lilly Dec 2016 #28
Maru Kitteh Dec 2016 #31
Guilded Lilly Dec 2016 #32
Maru Kitteh Dec 2016 #35
ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #33
Vinca Dec 2016 #39

Response to Maru Kitteh (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 02:22 AM

1. Thank you for this, Maru..

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Response to Cha (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 12:58 PM

16. Thank you Cha.

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 02:27 AM

2. Ohio is sort of the anus of the USA these days isn't it?

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Response to The_Casual_Observer (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 10:57 AM

12. LOL...

That was funny... I can't say I know for sure. I suppose there are a lot of good people there like any place else. The crazies are the most vocal these days. They make us all look bad.

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 02:33 AM

3. That's unconstitutional.

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Response to shraby (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 02:38 AM

4. you think these people care about the constitution?

You think Trump will be appointing SCOTUS judges that will preserve human rights? women's rights? minority rights?

I'm betting on a big fat NO for all of the above.

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 04:04 AM

6. +1

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 10:54 AM

10. Exactly. Trump's specific goal is to overturn Roe vs Wade. This stuff is just the start.

State laws like this will be challenged and will end up at the Supreme Court eventually -- likely after Trump has installed an arch-conservative in Scalia's place. This will give them the chance to overturn Roe v. Wade and "return it to the states" as Trump has stated. I think that many of the idiots that voted for Trump have no idea what they are truly in for with Trump -- abortion has been legal for decades and many people can't even imagine what things were like before that was the case.

Erratic state laws -- in some states it will be legal and in some illegal -- will result in much confusion and suffering -- imagine the case of a woman who is having a miscarriage and need emergency medical care that involves say a D&C to stop bleeding to death -- a state law like this will possibly result in death for the woman. And of course, deaths resulting from "home" abortions.

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Response to shraby (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:52 PM

22. Yes it is

We'll see if Kasich signs the bill, knowing full well it won't pass a legal challenge, and whether he'll waste a lot of taxpayer money trying to defend the bill.

But this is what the conservatives do; they NEVER give up. They never concede a fight. They never say, "Well, that's that." They keep coming back and coming back, and their partisans love them for that, even when they get slapped down again and again. Then they raise more money from the suckers who see only the efforts, never the lack of results. They will pour an incredible amount of money down the drain just to keep their base energized and donating.

On the liberal side, we don't complain about the waste of legislative time and taxpayer dollars on these windmill tilts. Or if we do, we complain about it once or twice, then let it go. We should really be riding these panderers, pointing out every dollar wasted on patently unconstitutional laws, and taking Republicans to task every time. Sure, we win these court battles. Eventually. But they're never over even then. Republicans keep the base jazzed up by the prospect of overturning Supreme Court decisions, something that almost never happens, and isn't going to happen with abortion or same sex marriage. But their base never seems to get discouraged, and they never seem to doubt that the impossible will happen in their favor.

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Response to shraby (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 11:58 AM

27. Yes, clearly not under Roe v. Wade

And I don't think the SCOTUS overturns its own cases so lightly as these people think. Even conservative justices will see it as precedent. I recall a Con Law professor saying that they never have. The only case they admit were wrong are the Japanese internment cases, and they never have actually overruled them. (Fortunately no case with that issue should ever come up again).

Maybe some Scalia like justice can twist the words of Roe to allow this, but even though Rs are skilled at that, it would seem about impossible. Roe says the first trimester is totally protected.

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 03:37 AM

5. K&R

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 04:31 AM

7. Good, good....

...more white babies to adopt from Trump voters teen daughters. Oh, wait, they'll be addicted to meth. Pass. ::

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 04:44 AM

8. Hey, Ladies! Meet the man who wants to be up all in your business!



That's right, Ohio Republican Kris Jordan, sponsor of the aforementioned bodily-integrity-denyin' fetustastic legislation, here detailed in the Columbus Dispatch with a recent (okay, 2011) encounter with local authorities!


http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2011/08/06/prosecutor-wont-file-charges-against-senator.html

Sen. Jordan, a Republican from Powell, told deputies that he and his wife had argued over his not cleaning their condo. Cruiser dashboard camera recordings released yesterday detail the deputies’ conversations with the Jordans.

“She got a little upset,” Sen. Jordan told a deputy on the recording. “Girls do that.”

---

She also was recorded as saying violent incidents with her husband began about two years ago, sometimes after he had been drinking. She said her husband had been drinking that night but not to excess.

“This is not new,” Mrs. Jordan, 31, said. “He’s done this numerous times, and I just got sick of it and I just had to call.”



... i swear, you cant make this shit up.


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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 10:23 AM

9. "Girls" get upset when you get loaded and

Trash the place huh?


That explains a lot.

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:33 PM

20. He sounds like a real piece of work.

Not surprisingly.

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 10:56 AM

11. This should make the Trump apologists happy

The one's who insisted Hillary was too centrist or corporate for them to lower themselves to vote for. Now they get to enjoy watching the groups of Americans they so despise have their rights stripped away.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 11:58 AM

14. Because buzzwords are cool and trendy!

They make you sound so smart, so principled! So one of the cool kids!

That stuff really matters you know. Plus, those old ladies and POC deserve whatever's coming to them anyway. They should learn to listen to young/white folks more. They know what's best.

Whew! We really dodged a bullet on this election didn't we? I mean, we almost ended up with a President who once gave a speech at Goldman Sachs. OH MY GOD.



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Response to Maru Kitteh (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 11:28 AM

13. And so it begins - the dismantling of progress made.

Once Trump can appoint new Supreme Court justices, watch for these beginnings to grow into wholesale reversals of crucial advances made over the past 50 years. With the right in charge of all three branches of government, there's little that has been done that they can't undo.

This was the threat of the 2016 election. Sadly, we missed our chance by not winning enough states for the Democratic nominee. We're going to have our work cut out for us if we hope to prevent regression.

Are we up to the job? After 2016, I wonder, really, whether we are or not or whether factionalization will further splinter our unity.

If you're not sad and alarmed about these prospects, you aren't paying attention. The signs were there before November. There was plenty of warning, too.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 11:58 AM

15. We did miss our chance...to really

affect the courts and implement progressive policy...the burn it down crowd prevailed and soon will see that nothing good will arise from the ashes...it never does.

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 01:09 PM

17. I don't think this would be the worst thing in the world.

It's possible to tell pregnancies very early these days, and, very importantly, it would lose the right a great deal of the power their leaders have cultivated this wedge issue for. And certainly some of these extremists on the right want to cause a lot more trouble--like the ones who would make all abortions illegal INCLUDING to save the mother.

I wonder, though, if they realize the natural extension of declaring fetuses to be people after 6 weeks--that women might/will be suing health insurance companies to cover treatment to save the lives of people being miscarried or dying in their wombs. Right now the money only starts flowing after 24 weeks or so, and usually not then.

Technology would definitely not be the anti-tax right's friend. We can already identify many fetuses/babies who will not live without medical intervention, horrendously complex and extremely lengthy interventions....

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 04:21 PM

18. You forgot your sarcasm tag.

And why do we think these same people who would force birth would not enforce debtor prisons for the fallen women of society to pay for their whorishness and lack of money?

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:05 PM

19. Not sarcasm. And we're still a ways from losing

the right to abortion and much farther away from debtors' prisons. What has already come sooner is imprisoning mothers who have self-aborted.

But at some point, at which people disagree, there are TWO people involved. And it is well before 39 weeks. After that point, related to brain development, I am definitely one of those who would "force birth," as you put it, and I'm inclined to put it sooner rather than later, although 6 weeks is more than a little much. The heart's merely a mindless pump.

But certainly most experts agree that Roe v. Wade is flawed and needs adjustment, including justices who were involved with it. Its flaws make it vulnerable.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #19)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 04:19 AM

23. So you would force birth, in rape, in incest, in suicidal women?

Your original post (emphasis mine)

Not sarcasm. And we're still a ways from losing
the right to abortion and much farther away from debtors' prisons.

But at some point, at which people disagree, there ARE two people involved. After that point, related to brain development, I am definitelyone of those who would "force birth," as you put it, and I'm inclined to put it sooner rather than later. Certainly most experts agree that Roe v. Wade is flawed and needs adjustment, including justices who were involved with it.

Btw, I often think also of the massive hypocrisy of anti-abortionists who claims abortion is murder but allow it for babies of incest and rape. Despicable. Marriage between cousins is legal in almost half our states, intercourse in two or three others. And, of course, rape is only one of many reasons a pregnancy might make a woman extremely unhappy, even to the point of being suicidal.

And then there's the little money issue. If little research has been done on how to keep a miscarried 15-week fetus growing out of the uterus, one guess why. I'd love to watch them face that one. And they will have to if they happen to get their way.

How about jailing mothers who miscarry after being told to stay in bed and disobeying instruction? Murder? Lots of interesting questions.


I know I'm just a crazy-assed, godless liberal, but I regard anyone who would presume to lord over my body and deny me the dignity of reproductive freedom a la chattel, to be in the service of conservatism, paternalism, theocratism and every other oppression I have fought against since my mid-teens.

"You can grab them by the pussy, you can do whatever you want."

Really. That's what it is. That's all it is.

You said you didn't think this draconian violation of the autonomy of women "would be the worst thing in the world" because "It's possible to tell pregnancies very early these days" and it would take away a "wedge issue."

I guess you don't know many women will not even suspect pregnancy at six weeks? What of them? So all women (and minors) of reproductive age/capability must now be expected to accurately test routinely either at a clinic or with validated and reliable pregnancy tests at medically-indicated intervals following any and all consensual or non-consensual sexual activity (which in some instances they may or may not yet be aware of)?

Does we demand this of a homeschooled 17yo with no sexual education at all living 56 miles from the nearest stoplight in the mountains of Idaho? Is she just collateral damage in this brave new war on women's reproductive autonomy? So what if she's suicidal?

What of the college attendant who didn't even know she was slipped a roofie?

What about the mother of 4 working 3 jobs, suffering from PCOS who is quite used to having only 4 or 5 periods a year? Who cares if the rape that finally marked the end of her abusive marriage left her with a pregnancy she can only despise?



You said "I don't think this would be the worst thing in the world."
I think a bloody mess of dead women is petty much the worst thing in the world. My body is not a wedge issue. My freedom is not negotiable.

I trust women.



BTW, not only are women losing our human rights in this country, your assertion that debtor's prisons do not exist is incorrect as well. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/debtors-prison-arkansas_us_57bdd1b8e4b0c6301ca0e56c
Debtor prison is alive and thriving.






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Response to Maru Kitteh (Reply #23)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 12:39 PM

29. I'm pro abortion, Maru, for any reason, right up to

a point where two people are involved. That point occurs several months before completion of gestation. How to determine is a huge question, but to me it would be about brain development. After that point for no reason except to protect the mother's physical health, to abort a fetus that can never become a person, or to protect a child who cannot live much beyond birth from suffering.

And, yes, in an imperfect world, no point is truly definitive (except for those who'd set it at conception), but if we must err, let's do it on the earlier side to protect the rights of those who cannot speak or vote for their own right to live.

Sorry if you don't like that. But whether someone regards pregnancy as a beautiful miracle or a parasite turning its host into a slave, at some point this becomes all about two people, both endowed with inalienable rights to life, etc.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #29)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 01:54 PM

30. You are pro forced birth. You said it yourself quite clearly. You don't trust women.

I trust women.

It's good to have clarity.


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Response to Hortensis (Reply #29)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 07:53 PM

34. What the fuck is going on?

What two notherfucking people--the fetus is what the woman carrying it says it is. Holy shit

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #29)

Sat Dec 10, 2016, 08:20 PM

36. At six weeks, the "person" you are talking about is the size of a lentil.

You're gonna have a tough time arguing that there is sentience-level brain development at that point.

"Oh, but there's a heartbeat!"... that must mean it's already a little tiny person, right?

http://www.slate.com/articles/video/video/2015/07/beating_human_heart_tissue_grown_in_lab_video.html

Uh, no. Cells, like heart cells, self-organize to the point of beating. There is a continuum of existence from fertilization to birth, but only anti-choicers take the decidedly theological; not based in science; position that at the moment of conception by magic, this-



becomes the functional (and, by their thinking, legal) equivalent of this.



Now, I like babies too. But a fertilized egg is not a fetus at 6 weeks is not a baby. And regardless, the ONLY person fit to make a determination about what a woman should be "allowed" to do vis a vis her own reproductive system, is the woman in question. These decisions are too crucial, too personal, too life situation-specific, to leave to total strangers, panels of priests, Ohio legislators with a history of domestic violence complaints, etc.



And most abortions take place in the first trimester. This bullshit about women running around pregnant for 8 months and then aborting because they feel like it is James O'Keefe, right-wing bullshit, the same people who want you to believe that Planned Parenthood calles pregnancies "parasitic". Derp.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #36)

Sun Dec 11, 2016, 03:35 PM

37. Good grief. This reaction reminds me of what we're seeing

from the typical conservative these days. They can't answer what we say honestly, so they attack a position no one ever took. I never said anything about 6 weeks or physical size. But, then, maybe what I did say was too uncomfortable to acknowledge?

I will add that, imo, the "you-agree-entirely-with-me-or-you're-the-enemy" tone of some responses here is not just extremely dishonest but extremely intolerant and extremist. Just like those of a huge bloc of people we find...extremely deplorable.

Don't call me if you develop an interest in discussing what I did say honestly and thoughtfully. I lost interest days ago.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #37)

Sun Dec 11, 2016, 06:46 PM

38. Post #17.

You "never said anything about 6 weeks"? Yes you did.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 11, 2016, 07:01 PM

40. WTF? What two people?

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:35 PM

21. Oh, barf.

your mask is slipping.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #17)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 08:19 AM

24. For years I have been saying that once a woman finds out she's pregnant, even two weeks pregnant,

she should apply for life insurance for the fetus. After all, government is saying it's a person with full rights. Watch insurance companies and legislators freak out. I miscarried three fetuses in two pregnancies. Imagine if I had $1 million life insurance policy on each. Twelve weeks into the pregnancies and I could have netted $3 million.

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Original post)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 11:28 AM

25. You can't get an abortion before a heartbeat is detected, IIRC.

Clinics and doctors vary on how soon you can get a first-trimester abortion - usually it's 5 to 6 weeks after your last menstrual period (LMP).

People won't realize it, but that law effectively bans abortion. Alternatively, women would have to take the abortion pill very early on--at greater cost, without medical assistance, and with no clarity on whether the pregnancy would have ended on its own (without intervention) before 12 weeks.

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Original post)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 11:53 AM

26. Empathy for the pockets of Ohio progressives ...

especially Cuyahoga and Athens counties (my old haunts), plus Mahoning, Hamilton, Lucas and Franklin. All voted blue in the last election.

The rest of Ohio CAN ROT IN HELL.

Fuck you all.

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Original post)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 12:03 PM

28. Yes! I've already plastered this all over FB and my email list.

Besides being the typical backward-assed movement of pathetically insecure, patriarchal Republican spooge who aren't brain equipped to fight for any kind of progress but continue to push against the established laws that will immediately be challenged by costly unconstitutional lawsuits, there are TWO bills being placed in Kasich's desk both addressing the obliteration on women's rights. The second is a twenty week ban.

Ohio Ladies, the ugly war against your rightful control of your bodies has begun.
Rape, incest, health of mother NOT even considered.
And I guarantee other red states will jump on this particularly despicable band wagon.

http://www.governor.ohio.gov/Contact/ContacttheGovernor.aspx

Call Governor John Kasich at (614) 466-3555 and tell him to veto House Bill 493.
Call Kasich's office.
Send emails.

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Response to Guilded Lilly (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 02:45 PM

31. yet even in this thread we are told this wouldn't be "the worst thing in the world"

No wonder the forces that would control women's bodies, that would compel women once again to the "duty" of breeding as paramount to our own judgement are enjoying such success.

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Reply #31)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 07:50 PM

32. Just do what you can do and stay focused on the

end goal. Keep on passing the word

People will try and tell us a lot of things.
We don't need to justify our beliefs, just support them passionately any way we can! .
And we will continue to succeed...on our terms!

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Response to Guilded Lilly (Reply #32)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 09:17 PM

35. I will be happy to surrender control of my body

when it is cold and dead.

*satirical nod to the famously dead, Charlton Heston*

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Original post)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 07:50 PM

33. What you said.

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Original post)

Sun Dec 11, 2016, 06:57 PM

39. Maybe Kasich won't sign it. It will cost the state a fortune in court challenges.

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