Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 07:41 PM Dec 2016

Oakland Fire - Callous, Wanton and Reckless Disregard for Human Life

Access to the second floor was by a "stairway" that was more of an art project arrangement of wooden pallets. The place was laid out like a maze, full of flammable material, and clearly ad-hoc electrical wiring. You can see wires used as mechanical supports, terminated live wires with wire nuts, lighting installed against wood....

NO fire extinguishers to be seen, and no sprinklers or automatic fire extinguishers or fire extinguishing balls. Those things can be very inexpensive, incidentally.

This was no "accident" in the sense that it wasn't engineered into what was going on when someone decided it would be a good idea to have dozens of people visit.

Look at the loose, terminated wires in the first picture, and take a look at the string of 120v light sockets wound around the wood beam in the second. These pictures are a smorgasbord of "spot the fire hazard" worthy of a basic electrician's class.







LOOK ^^^ Do you see those bare incandescent bulbs? Do you see that string of sockets where the wires are supporting the lamps? That's fucking insane.







This is not an "accident", it is criminally negligent homicide.

35 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Oakland Fire - Callous, Wanton and Reckless Disregard for Human Life (Original Post) jberryhill Dec 2016 OP
This message was self-deleted by its author Duckhunter935 Dec 2016 #1
Nicer than any studio space I ever found Warpy Dec 2016 #6
this mike_c Dec 2016 #8
These cost tens of dollars jberryhill Dec 2016 #9
One resident said he had a fire extinguisher Warpy Dec 2016 #10
That's why you get an automatic one like i showed jberryhill Dec 2016 #13
Should society reward them with a sense of self-preservation, too? Dreamer Tatum Dec 2016 #11
Looks like a really cool place actually Calculating Dec 2016 #2
It is possible to make a cool looking place... jberryhill Dec 2016 #3
Or else keep the parties in your cool funky space real small Warren DeMontague Dec 2016 #14
Genius! jberryhill Dec 2016 #15
My thought too. pangaia Dec 2016 #4
It's all cool until the screaming starts. Building codes -- pfft. Who needs 'em? Hekate Dec 2016 #5
Forget building codes... jberryhill Dec 2016 #7
I know, I know. I don't think they "meant" to kill/maim others, but like I said.... Hekate Dec 2016 #12
I like the look of, it's a shame it was a total fire trap... Raine Dec 2016 #17
It' a cool looking place but obviously highly unsafe and not designed to host large parties by any LisaL Dec 2016 #21
I lived in a live-work space 10 minutes from this building. Starry Messenger Dec 2016 #16
The impact of this is going to be gigantic Lonusca Dec 2016 #18
A "community" of self-absorbed sociopaths? jberryhill Dec 2016 #19
Yes - the owner is self absorbed Lonusca Dec 2016 #25
"it could have been made much less unsafe" jberryhill Dec 2016 #28
So where does the blame start and end? Lonusca Dec 2016 #35
actually, the owner didn't live there. The manager did. mainer Dec 2016 #22
I will search for the link Lonusca Dec 2016 #26
It's owned by someone with the last name of Ng. cwydro Dec 2016 #30
Thats the key point Lonusca Dec 2016 #33
I agree. yardwork Dec 2016 #20
Artists may not be savvy to electrical hazards mainer Dec 2016 #23
Then by all means, hang out there, but don't invite a crowd and charge admission jberryhill Dec 2016 #24
Seems like a real "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for Oakland Jake Stern Dec 2016 #27
The primary responsibility is not with the city jberryhill Dec 2016 #29
Completely agree Jake Stern Dec 2016 #31
I think it would be good if code authorities had classes on avoiding this sort of thing bhikkhu Dec 2016 #32
Dirtbag of the year award goes to... Puha Ekapi_2 Dec 2016 #34

Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Warpy

(110,912 posts)
6. Nicer than any studio space I ever found
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:08 PM
Dec 2016

Artists work with flammable materials and few have enough income to move into safe buildings anywhere, let alone retrofit old firetraps with sprinkler systems.

Maybe when we start rewarding people who produce things, including art, instead of the parasite class that produces nothing but paper profits for men who are already rich, artists will be able to rent survivable spaces.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
9. These cost tens of dollars
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:23 PM
Dec 2016


And, yes, I can certainly understand the economics of it, but that is no excuse for having dozens of people crammed into a second floor, accessible only by a stack of pallets, when you obviously didn't give a shit about how you wired your lights.

Not having money is no reason to not give a shit about the lives of others you have invited there.

Warpy

(110,912 posts)
10. One resident said he had a fire extinguisher
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:28 PM
Dec 2016

and the damned thing jammed, wouldn't work.

Before I point any fingers, I'll wait until they find out how it started.

Dreamer Tatum

(10,926 posts)
11. Should society reward them with a sense of self-preservation, too?
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:34 PM
Dec 2016

"Hey, man, I HAVE to live in this deathtrap, because you didn't buy my ART. So, like, you're a MURDERER."


 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
3. It is possible to make a cool looking place...
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 07:53 PM
Dec 2016

...which is not a firebomb waiting to happen.

"Sucks what happened there" - what happened there is someone with utter disregard for the lives of others decided to have dozens of people crowded into his or her trap.

You have incandescent bulbs, suspended by their own wiring, next to a bunch of fabric tassles on a floor lampshade, and a dozen other similar arrangements.

"what happened there" is that someone killed a lot of people, and not some random act of unforeseeable tragedy.

Hekate

(90,195 posts)
5. It's all cool until the screaming starts. Building codes -- pfft. Who needs 'em?
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 07:59 PM
Dec 2016

Laws of physics apply even to the blissfully ignorant.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
7. Forget building codes...
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:20 PM
Dec 2016

Even for "non code" arrangements, a close look at the wiring and lighting - some chained by cheap extension cords - defies basic simple common sense.

Someone did not give a shit about the lives of others.

Hekate

(90,195 posts)
12. I know, I know. I don't think they "meant" to kill/maim others, but like I said....
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:40 PM
Dec 2016

Ignorance of the Laws of Physics is no excuse.

Last year I was a juror in a civil suit against a landlord who failed to install a kitchen stove according to instructions. He didn't "mean" for his tenant to get 3rd degree burns all down her back when a stockpot full of gallons of boiling water slid off the top as she bent over the open oven on Thanksgiving Day. He just didn't think leveling the stove was a necessary step. As I pointed out to my fellow jurors, who were inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt (he was a small-time blue collar landlord, not one of our slumlords), the photos showed not one violation, but about six. Fortunately, my ally was a guy in the building trades, and we found for the injured party.

Raine

(30,540 posts)
17. I like the look of, it's a shame it was a total fire trap...
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 03:28 AM
Dec 2016

I would love a place like that if it was safe.

LisaL

(44,962 posts)
21. It' a cool looking place but obviously highly unsafe and not designed to host large parties by any
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 01:18 PM
Dec 2016

means.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
16. I lived in a live-work space 10 minutes from this building.
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 03:11 AM
Dec 2016

The landlords rent them out knowing that they are barely fit for human habitation because people are desperate for cheap art space.

When I was 25, the last thing I would have though about was sprinklers and smoke detectors if I was going to a party at an art space.

This is a very tragic event. The city knew the landlord wasn't following code. I'll wait to see how this unfolds. But I know this isn't the only space in Oakland that is left to the tenants to make into a space with found materials.

Lonusca

(202 posts)
18. The impact of this is going to be gigantic
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 11:47 AM
Dec 2016

Sure, the owner is callous, and responsible. However - this case is going to be different. He is not an absentee slumlord - he lives there, and is part of the community, one of their own.

And this is not the only “artist live/work” space in the bay area that is a fire trap. They are all over the place

Oakland is complicit - they have turned a blind eye to this space (and those like it) for years.

The issue is - these spaces are obviously critical to the artists in the area. If Oakland had moved to shut all of the collectives prior to the fire, what would have been the reaction?

I think Oakland would have been lambasted for doing it. So they have gone along for years turning a blind eye to this, knowing that sooner or later, this was going to happen.

This place, and the music event, are not “one offs”. They are part of a culture and community in the area. This is much larger than a fire at an illegal party.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
19. A "community" of self-absorbed sociopaths?
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 01:16 PM
Dec 2016

This guy is bemoaning the loss of his stuff.

I can completely understand that there are other places that are, in some sense, similar in principle.

But if you look closely at photographs, you can see dollar store extension cords being used as installed "wiring", and a lot of other readily visible dangerous electrical arrangements.

One can make a "cool space" without the outstanding dangers plainly visible here, and one can certainly avoid having dozens of people at a party on a second floor accessible by a makeshift ladder/stairs made of pallets.

There is nothing creative about rank indifference to the lives of others.

There was obviously enough talent to create works of art. Wiring isn't that hard.

If you are suggesting that this self-interested egocentric behavior is characteristic of a "community" of some kind, then I see no difference between this community and any other one which endangers others to feed their egos.

This guy had enough sense -and cash - to make sure his wife and kids were safely staying at a hotel. Some concern about his guests would have gone a long way.

Lonusca

(202 posts)
25. Yes - the owner is self absorbed
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 02:30 PM
Dec 2016

That is obvious from his comment. It was also quoted from someone that he told the owner every time he saw him that this was going to happen and he laughed it off.

Yes, everyone who lived there fully accepted the risks of where they lived. This place has been around for quite a while, has hosted numerous events, and I believe has a website.

The city was fully aware of the situation, and these situations are all over the place.

I wouldn't say he went to the hotel for safety. More likely for noise. How much more unsafe do you think Ghostship was Friday vs and other day over the last 10 years.

Your argument seems to be it could have been made much less unsafe. I agree. You also seem to be saying blame for this rests with the owner

What I am saying is EVERYBODY was OK with this. Starting with the city all the way on down to the residents and attendees at the more than 100 events that have purportedly taken place over the years. And there is an entire community here in the bay area where this lifestyle is the norm.

Where should we start cleaning it up? Why do you think Ghostship existed out here?

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
28. "it could have been made much less unsafe"
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 02:48 PM
Dec 2016

Corrrect, and I'm not even saying "up to code".

There's a chasm of difference between "making do" on limited resources, and simply not giving a rat's ass.

There's also a difference between accepting the risks of one's make-do living arrangements, and charging admission to others.

As you point out, this sort of arrangement is not uncommon, but there have pointedly not been dozens of these things going up in smoke either. This should serve as a cue to "have someone whose brother's cousin knows something about wiring" come on down and take a look. It might also serve as a cue to "not have a lot of people access a makeshift space full of fuel with no way out".

I've got nothing against what you broadly term as "this lifestyle". But I have to wonder the extent to which this level of manifest lack of giveashittitude is as common as some are making it out to be.

The guy in charge here does not appear to be the "naive freespirited youngster" of the kind who may largely have become his victims. If you are having toddlers over, you childproof the space. If you've been around the block a few times, and you arrange something that is going to be popular with young people and celebratory casual carelessness, then you have to exercise a little bit of wisdom which we normally presumes comes with having lived a little longer.

It's as simple as having some concern for the well being of others. If one is going to get riled up over the consequences of something like, oh, building an oil pipeline through a watershed, and what might be the likely outcome of that, then it seems a little off to give someone a pass for crowding people into an inherently unsafe venue - (and that's after having laughed off concerned suggestions from some in that same community).

I mean, if you are into "found art", then go find some more conduit, junction boxes and insulated copper wire around a construction site somewhere. It's easier to find that than to buy extension cords from the dollar store.

Lonusca

(202 posts)
35. So where does the blame start and end?
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 03:35 PM
Dec 2016

Yes the owner, yes the manager.

I'm not sure how many people lived there. 10? 20? I guess they are to blame too

The city? Most likely they say they were "never able to gain access" to the interior. Yet there have been over a 100 of these events there I believe? They certainly "knew" people lived there, you can tell that from the pictures on the website

If we are going to throw around blame now for not only an accepted but encouraged lifestyle and community in Oakland, it's going to land all over the place. Because this one just happened to go up in flames. It's not the only one that could

And remember - these are our people. Probably not a Trump voter among the entire community

mainer

(12,013 posts)
22. actually, the owner didn't live there. The manager did.
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 01:19 PM
Dec 2016

Tenants say the owner never set foot inside, just let the manager handle it.

Lonusca

(202 posts)
26. I will search for the link
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 02:33 PM
Dec 2016

sfgate.com has all info

I believe what I read was the owner and his kids lived there and were out at hotel for the evening so the kids could sleep

http://heavy.com/news/2016/12/derick-ion-micah-allison-facebook-post-ghost-ship-fire/

I believe you are correct. Ion is listed as manager. He also sounds like he feels he has created the Ghost Ship - thats why I assumed he was owner

 

cwydro

(51,308 posts)
30. It's owned by someone with the last name of Ng.
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 02:54 PM
Dec 2016

No doubt the owner will be held responsible as well, but this dipshit Ion seems the primary mover in this "festival."

Lonusca

(202 posts)
33. Thats the key point
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 03:27 PM
Dec 2016

He is not just a mover in the festival but of the Ghost Ship itself.

This place has been around for a long time. As you said, Ng and Ion will be primarily responsible.

But Oakland not only turns a blind eye to the violations, for all practical purposes these places are encouraged.

This is where the rock and hard place come in. These places and their community are part of the lifeblood of the bay area. There are many parallel "underground" communities

This one seemed to be techno oriented - at least the show. My friends kids go to these exact same type of events, but more for a thrash metal style. Im sure it has a different name now than in my day.

How was Oakland supposed to handle this before the problem? I don't have answers - but while this was one instance could have surely been avoided, and incident like this was going to happen

mainer

(12,013 posts)
23. Artists may not be savvy to electrical hazards
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 01:21 PM
Dec 2016

I know quite a few who wouldn't even consider the perils of such a space, but would just think it's a cool place to hang out.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
24. Then by all means, hang out there, but don't invite a crowd and charge admission
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 02:27 PM
Dec 2016

IMHO, artists are generally familiar with the properties of the media in which they work. If you can understand what paints to use on what surfaces, then you can learn basic wiring.

From one of the pictures, it looks as if some found steel electrical conduit was used as art. It's not as if they couldn't recognize it when they saw it.

Jake Stern

(3,145 posts)
27. Seems like a real "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for Oakland
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 02:47 PM
Dec 2016

The city turned a blind eye to these firetraps and now people are going to be demanding answers as to why they didn't do anything about it.

However if the city had shut it down in the name of public safety many of these same folks would have been decrying them as "Nazis" that tossed a poor artist out of his studio/home.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
29. The primary responsibility is not with the city
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 02:50 PM
Dec 2016

Yes, people will demand the city "do something".

But, even in a situation where someone is going to DIY their electrical wiring, one can find enough discarded stuff around construction sites to do a halfway decent job.

Jake Stern

(3,145 posts)
31. Completely agree
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 02:56 PM
Dec 2016

Years ago I did some wiring on a place I had after watching a home handyman DVD from the library.

Passed inspection with flying colors. It is NOT that hard.

bhikkhu

(10,708 posts)
32. I think it would be good if code authorities had classes on avoiding this sort of thing
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 03:23 PM
Dec 2016

Which is to say, useful and informative classes which educated property owners and rentors on what was expected of them, and how they could make a space more safe.

After losses like this one, the hammer tends to come down; code inspections typically involve criminalization of not doing things right, hefty fines, and the shuttering of businesses. Which leads to owners and renters avoiding asking any questions and avoiding inspections like the plague.

I have an old building myself that I'm renovating, and get a little shudder every time I see a code inspector out and about. I try to educate myself as much as possible on safety measures, but the last thing I would do is call the department with a question.

On the space in the OP - its definitely a fire trap and the people should have known better. It could be justified as an art space/living space, but crowds of people there was a very bad idea.

Puha Ekapi_2

(69 posts)
34. Dirtbag of the year award goes to...
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 03:29 PM
Dec 2016

Derick Ion.

Confirmed. Everything I worked so hard for is gone. Blessed that my children and Micah were at a hotel safe and sound... it's as if I have awoken from a dream filled with opulence and hope.... to be standing now in poverty of self worth.


Not a single word of concern for the victims.

https://www.facebook.com/derick.ion.9
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Oakland Fire - Callous, W...