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Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:40 PM

Societies that ban Porn treat women really well

Last edited Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:11 AM - Edit history (1)

Discuss...

________________

The OP is, of course, a late-night jest. The opposite is true, as everyone knows.

122 replies, 20717 views

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Arrow 122 replies Author Time Post
Reply Societies that ban Porn treat women really well (Original post)
cthulu2016 Jun 2012 OP
seabeyond Jun 2012 #1
whathehell Jun 2012 #17
clang1 Jun 2012 #33
datasuspect Jun 2012 #41
obamanut2012 Jun 2012 #49
2ndAmForComputers Jun 2012 #59
DURHAM D Jun 2012 #2
quinnox Jun 2012 #4
whathehell Jun 2012 #12
UnrepentantLiberal Jun 2012 #81
Rex Jun 2012 #3
cthulu2016 Jun 2012 #6
Fawke Em Jun 2012 #10
reorg Jun 2012 #26
cthulu2016 Jun 2012 #28
cthulu2016 Jun 2012 #27
Zalatix Jun 2012 #25
4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #53
sadbear Jun 2012 #5
JonLP24 Jun 2012 #58
metalbot Jun 2012 #61
Fawke Em Jun 2012 #7
EOTE Jun 2012 #39
hifiguy Jun 2012 #50
4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #54
quinnox Jun 2012 #8
bluestateguy Jun 2012 #9
Rex Jun 2012 #11
GObamaGO Jun 2012 #13
Dr. Strange Jun 2012 #44
Javaman Jun 2012 #47
obamanut2012 Jun 2012 #52
whathehell Jun 2012 #119
DURHAM D Jun 2012 #16
Warren DeMontague Jun 2012 #36
FSogol Jun 2012 #46
GObamaGO Jun 2012 #48
FrodosPet Jun 2012 #66
Warren DeMontague Jun 2012 #117
yardwork Jun 2012 #116
4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #55
backscatter712 Jun 2012 #14
msongs Jun 2012 #15
Comrade Grumpy Jun 2012 #113
whathehell Jun 2012 #20
backscatter712 Jun 2012 #22
whathehell Jun 2012 #23
EOTE Jun 2012 #67
cthulu2016 Jun 2012 #24
whathehell Jun 2012 #31
EOTE Jun 2012 #40
shcrane71 Jun 2012 #51
EOTE Jun 2012 #57
whathehell Jun 2012 #63
EOTE Jun 2012 #65
whathehell Jun 2012 #69
EOTE Jun 2012 #70
whathehell Jun 2012 #76
EOTE Jun 2012 #80
whathehell Jun 2012 #102
EOTE Jun 2012 #104
EOTE Jun 2012 #107
whathehell Jun 2012 #111
EOTE Jun 2012 #114
whathehell Jun 2012 #62
EOTE Jun 2012 #64
apocalypsehow Jun 2012 #92
EOTE Jun 2012 #98
tabatha Jun 2012 #18
L0oniX Jun 2012 #60
tabatha Jun 2012 #19
Incitatus Jun 2012 #21
whathehell Jun 2012 #29
LiberalLoner Jun 2012 #32
whathehell Jun 2012 #34
whathehell Jun 2012 #35
DLevine Jun 2012 #37
whathehell Jun 2012 #43
RainDog Jun 2012 #38
whathehell Jun 2012 #42
RainDog Jun 2012 #94
whathehell Jun 2012 #100
jeff47 Jun 2012 #73
whathehell Jun 2012 #78
jeff47 Jun 2012 #85
whathehell Jun 2012 #105
apocalypsehow Jun 2012 #93
whathehell Jun 2012 #101
flamingdem Jun 2012 #30
BOG PERSON Jun 2012 #68
FSogol Jun 2012 #45
lame54 Jun 2012 #74
treestar Jun 2012 #56
whathehell Jun 2012 #118
undeterred Jun 2012 #71
StarryNight Jun 2012 #72
4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #75
whathehell Jun 2012 #82
4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #83
whathehell Jun 2012 #89
4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #90
whathehell Jun 2012 #97
4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #106
whathehell Jun 2012 #108
4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #109
EOTE Jun 2012 #110
whathehell Jun 2012 #112
EOTE Jun 2012 #115
cthulu2016 Jun 2012 #87
hifiguy Jun 2012 #88
whathehell Jun 2012 #91
hifiguy Jun 2012 #95
whathehell Jun 2012 #99
whathehell Jun 2012 #79
whathehell Jun 2012 #120
LanternWaste Jun 2012 #77
cthulu2016 Jun 2012 #86
LanternWaste Jun 2012 #96
cthulu2016 Jun 2012 #103
hobbit709 Jun 2012 #84
creatives4innovation Jan 2016 #121
creatives4innovation Jan 2016 #122

Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:41 PM

1. Denmark and Norway both banned sexual objectification in ads

 

Denmark and Norway both banned sexual objectification in ads, but make an exception for products or services for which a sexy body is somehow related (e.g. for a fitness center I bet they'd allow it, but not for cars, hamburgers, website hosting, candy, etc.)

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #1)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:15 AM

17. A smart and civilized move...Good on them.

although I suspect many of the supposedly "progressive" boys here

won't be quick champion THIS sort of social evolution.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #17)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 02:11 AM

33. A smart and civilized move...Good on them.

 

Loool

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #1)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 07:10 AM

41. some of the best porn comes from denmark and norway

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #1)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 09:01 AM

49. They haven't banned porn

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #49)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 10:24 AM

59. I think your post doesn't have enough momentum to break through the reality distortion field.

Not even your post and datasuspect's combined.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:42 PM

2. Whoopee - another porn thread.





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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #2)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:44 PM

4. lol

 

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #2)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:02 AM

12. Yay !



If you no like, you go away!





















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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #2)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 10:59 AM

81. Yee Haw!

 

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Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:43 PM

3. Is that true?

 

.

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Response to Rex (Reply #3)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:46 PM

6. Of course not!

The OP is a late-night joke.

Access to porn correlates highly with women's rights around the world, and everyone knows it. Reproductive choice, relatively equal pay, voting, divorce... not wearing a burka...

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:51 PM

10. Not rape and assault porn. No.

You might have an argument for the old 70s-style erotic (re: NOT "I have power over you" porn) porn, but the stuff that's out there now is assault.

Snuff films, for example, have always been illegal, for obvious reasons.

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #10)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:43 AM

26. that's a myth, I believe

I don't buy it that "snuff films" even exist (I mean outside of those that document military slaughters and have found their way onto the Internet). The myth that they do is as old as porn. Well, almost, but I remember well the excited reviews of one such alleged snuff movie in the early eighties which was shown in regular theaters. All bullshit, sick fantasies, "see, this is how it will end"!!!

There is essentially no difference between motives of "70s-style" porn and what is out there today. Vanessa del Rio prides herself of being a pioneer (oh, and SHE had the power, mind you--at least that was the projected image), and indeed may have been. One of a kind in the seventies, but what she did is today pretty much standard for American porn, I believe.

Repugnant, violent porn has always existed, and there have always been documented cases of abuse, women who were considered easy prey by colleagues just because they starred in so-called erotic films, or who didn't want to actually get physical and were only "convinced" at the last minute that this was necessary and so forth.

The main difference is that we see mass production today, to an extent that it starts to become financially unattractive for more and more actors. At least if we are to believe the British journalist who recently made that BBC documentary about today's porn stars' problems. At the same time, there may be just more and more actors ... or they do it like others drive a taxi, on weekends, for two or three years. If anything, this will make it better, not worse, I believe.

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Response to reorg (Reply #26)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:56 AM

28. The "snuff" hoax should have been a credibility-ender for many

But I don't think this stuff is really about gaining credibility.

There is attention to be gotten from false accusations. The people pushing the "snuff" hoax surely knew they were lying, but they same some benefit in convincing the hapless that their town was screening a film where a rubber dummy...er, sorry, where a real woman was killed.

What does one gain from convincing people of such a thing?

I dunno. Maybe it's just that fun.

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #10)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:45 AM

27. If you're just going to make stuff up

then there's no real need for replies.

Snuff films are not illegal.

Murdering people is, however, illegal.

And accepting money as a performer to pretend to be raped by another performer who is pretending to rape you is not rape.

Having know women who have been raped I find no amusement in your attempt to trivialize rape by including consensual activities as rape.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #6)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:42 AM

25. Are you saying porn is part of the whole freedom of choice thing?

 

Naw, it couldn't be!

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Response to Rex (Reply #3)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 09:49 AM

53. Think of the places that have a very regressive view of nudity/sex/porn

 

Like Saudi Arabia.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:46 PM

5. Do any societies actually ban porn?

It is my understanding that it's censored in Saudi Arabia, though.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 10:19 AM

58. I don't know the difference

between ban & censored in this context but in SA you're not allowed to possess porn. You also aren't allowed to in Kuwait & Iraq(last I knew). Those are the only countries I know for sure.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 10:42 AM

61. Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore...

All ban porn (though it is widely available on the black market).

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Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:48 PM

7. No one wants to ban porn; however, many feminists

object to the treatment of women in SOME of these films.

Look... child porn is illegal because having sex with a minor is also illegal. Why do we allow rape porn (rape is illegal), assault porn (assault is illegal), porn that advertises that a whole gang of men are going to fuck a woman so hard she has to wear a colostomy bag after it's over (I'm sure that's aggravated assault), etc?

Many women aren't against porn that doesn't harm the woman (or gay man) involved in the production. We just object to the types of porn that turns women into nothing but a cum receptacle - an object that has no feelings, emotions or life-worth (when she's not being used as a cum receptacle).

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #7)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 05:00 AM

39. This really isn't very hard to understand.

Let me try to break it down to you. Child porn is illegal because it's illegal to have sex with children and children obviously can't consent to something like that. Adult porn is not illegal because the performers are consenting adults. If "rape porn" is to be legal, the participants need to be consenting, as such, no real "rape" is documented. If it was, it would be illegal. Just as murder is illegal, it is NOT illegal to make a movie where people are murdered. I really wouldn't think this would be such a difficult issue for some, it's fairly simple common sense.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #39)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 09:10 AM

50. +1

 

Why is the difference between reality and something that is staged and performed by actors so hard to get through people's heads. There was a "rape scene" in "The Accused." Needless to say, Jodie Foster wasn't raped in that scene. IT WAS A MOVIE.

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #7)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 09:50 AM

54. Because all those other things you mention are simulated

 

the actors are pretending.

Like saying "we don't allow murder, why do we allow movies to portray actors committing this crime?"

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Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:48 PM

8. The Taliban would agree with you

 

hehehe

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Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:49 PM

9. Refighting the DU porn wars of 2007 is NOT a good idea

and it will solve nothing either.

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Response to bluestateguy (Reply #9)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:59 PM

11. There was a Porn War in 2007?

 

Huh, where the hell was I...what was I doing!?! I always miss this stuff.

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Response to bluestateguy (Reply #9)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:03 AM

13. A porn war 5 years ago

How come nobody told me???

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Response to GObamaGO (Reply #13)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 07:48 AM

44. What if they gave a porn war...

and nobody came?

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Response to Dr. Strange (Reply #44)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 08:25 AM

47. LOL!

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Response to Dr. Strange (Reply #44)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 09:41 AM

52. DUZY!!!

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Response to Dr. Strange (Reply #44)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 04:10 PM

119. What if they made porn

and nobody bought it?

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Response to bluestateguy (Reply #9)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:08 AM

16. Who won?

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Response to bluestateguy (Reply #9)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 03:59 AM

36. Pah. More like, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2010, late 2011

There may have been a break in 2008.

There's one way to stop it, and ONLY one way:




but it involves bringing up PETA, Smoking Bans, Breastfeeding or the Olive Garden.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #36)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 08:20 AM

46. Who do I see about fitting pitbulls into the next schedule?

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #36)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 08:56 AM

48. LMAO

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #36)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:45 PM

66. Would showing porn at the Olive Garden...

Would showing porn at the Olive Garden make vegan food tastier for kids and pit bulls?

I believe in efficiency. Let's get it all out in the open at once.

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Response to FrodosPet (Reply #66)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 03:22 PM

117. That has been tried-However, when the issues are muddled, people forget which side they're supposed

to be on, and things get messy.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #36)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 03:15 PM

116. That's funny! You left out Indigo Children, though.

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Response to bluestateguy (Reply #9)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 09:52 AM

55. Begun the porn wars have . . .

 

Horniness is the path to porn. Horniness leads to arousal. Arousal leads to baitin'. Baitin' leads to suffering.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:04 AM

14. Ah, like Saudi Arabia!

They not only ban porn, but they've redefined any image of a woman that shows more than face hands and feet to be "pornography".

Yeah, they're real kind to women there...

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #14)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:06 AM

15. ok then, afghanistan now we have liberated them nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #15)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 03:10 PM

113. In 2005, I saw Afghan guys get all hot and bothered...

 

...by being able to watch music videos from India. They could see the women's bare arms. Hot stuff!

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #14)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:24 AM

20. No, like Denmark and Norway!

Yeah, they're EXACTLY like Saudi Arabia.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #20)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:36 AM

22. It goes to demonstrate the correlation between porn and violence against women...

Or shall we say, the lack of correlation.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #22)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:38 AM

23. No, I don't think so..

Are you sure you're responding to the right post?

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Response to whathehell (Reply #23)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:46 PM

67. Yes, very much so.

Countries which ban pornography have a piss poor record of civil rights for women. That is a fact. If a woman is to go to a country where porn is banned, she better be prepared to live as a third class citizen.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #20)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:40 AM

24. Disingenuous isn't just a river in Egypt

The desperate goal-post move is noted.

Yes, Denmark, is an awesome example of a nation that outlaws porn.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #24)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 02:01 AM

31. No, it's the sewer that runs from the vinyard of sour grapes, lol.

Sorry to knock the wind out of those awesome Saudi Arabia sails.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #20)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 05:07 AM

40. Both Denmark and Norway have free and open access to pornography.

In fact, Denmark was the first country in the world to legalize pornography. So, ummm, you're really going to have to try much harder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_by_region

Denmark
Main article: Pornography in Denmark

A ban on pornographic literature was lifted in 1967. In 1969, Denmark became the first country in the world to legalize pornography.[11] People in Denmark have free access to pornography; it is sold in most convenience stores[citation needed], and is available for purchase or rental in practically every video store, including Blockbuster. Pornography including minors younger than 18 years is prohibited, even possession is illegal.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #40)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 09:21 AM

51. You don't understand what Whathehell is saying.

Go back to the top of the thread.

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Response to shcrane71 (Reply #51)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 10:14 AM

57. I very well do.

She's saying that it's not just backward, women-hating countries like Saudi Arabia that censor porn, enlightened countries like Denmark and Norway do too. Only, that's not the case at all. It was mentioned that Norway and Denmark have banned objectification of women in advertising, that's great. However, Denmark and Norway both feature nudity regular in advertising. I'd much rather the U.S. go by the Dane and Norse models. And they both have very free and open access to pornography.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #57)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:36 PM

63. I'm afraid you very well don't.

As I pointed out in the response to your post to me.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #63)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:44 PM

65. You're more than welcome to actually SAY when you mean, rather than making vague allusions.

So is your point NOT that Norway and Denmark ban pornography? Or is it that you think that our advertisements (which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the OP) should be more like Denmark and Norway and feature nudity? I'm sure you'll think of a point any minute now.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #65)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 07:08 PM

69. I have no idea what "vague allusions" you're referring to,

but your sarcastic, hostile tone does

suggest that you're looking for a fight,

something I couldn't be less interested in right now.

This being the case, I can only "welcome" you,

to take it elsewhere.


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Response to whathehell (Reply #69)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 06:38 AM

70. You're interested enough to respond.

But once again, not interested enough to actually say something of merit. Again, if you want to actually participate in a discussion, you're more than welcome to. But generally, people tend to present facts and respond to them in discussions. If you'd like to discuss how you feel on the subject, that's fine too, but don't expect people to really give a damn unless you present something even approaching a fact. I'll be keeping this here, I won't be bullied out of the discussion, thanks.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #70)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 10:35 AM

76. Whatever. In any case, it's clear you're far more interested than I am, and that being reality,

your obvious attempts to bait me won't work, as I don't

much care if you think I've "said anything of merit" or not.

"I'll be keeping this here, I won't be bullied out of the discussion, thanks"

Good luck with that, bro...Meanwhile, you do get props for your hilarious,

attempt to "re-frame" the dynamic as one of you being "bullied" out of

the discussion, rather than me being bullied into it!


Good try, dude, but as they say, "No cigar"

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Response to whathehell (Reply #76)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 10:49 AM

80. Yet another brilliant post of immense substance!

Oh wait, I notice that yet again you've said absolutely nothing about Denmark and Norway, what your original, incredibly vapid point was supposed to be about. You are so incredibly bereft of any ideas, any way to contribute something intelligent, that you've completely derailed the conversation. And "Good try"? Yes, I suppose it was a good try of me to try and get you to actually explain your comment in the slightest, but I guess it was fairly foolish of me to expect you to contribute something worthwhile. So, I'll ask you again, will you even attempt to describe your comment regarding Denmark and Norway? Or is it entirely too much of me to expect that you actually have a point? You've been very good at throwing around snark and insults, but piss poor at making anything approaching an honest argument. And I fully expect you to regard that as a rhetorical question, I can certainly understand how you'd feel that, but it's a real one.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #80)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:49 PM

102. Brilliance isn't generally perceived by mediocrity.

And as you amp up the insults and ad hominem attacks,

you only signal your desperation...Sorry, bro, but "no means no".

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Response to whathehell (Reply #102)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:55 PM

104. I'll ask you once again, in all honesty...

what did you mean by your original comment? I'm giving you a chance to explain yourself, you're more than welcome to it. Or you can respond just as you have been. I'd expect any rational person to be able to decipher what you meant by your response to this. So... am I going to get an actual response? Or can I expect more smileys? I'm going to bet on a smiley or two, but maybe you'll surprise me.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #102)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:57 PM

107. And your responses are quite hilarious.

You chide me for my insults while you call me mediocre. All the while you haven't even so much as ATTEMPTED to explain your original comments. But keep it going, people here are obviously able to see you are utterly talking out of your ass. Keep it up, bro.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #107)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 03:05 PM

111. Glad you enjoyed them!

Cause you won't be getting anymore.

You see, you're now not only talking OUT your ass, you're now talking TO your ass!

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Response to whathehell (Reply #111)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 03:11 PM

114. No more smilies and snark? Whatever will I do?

I guess I'll just have to engage with someone who's capable of intelligent debate. My loss.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #40)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:32 PM

62. If you go back to the post to which I responded, you'll see I wasn't speaking of pornography here

So, ummm, maybe it's you who are "really going to try much harder".



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Response to whathehell (Reply #62)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:43 PM

64. The post you responded to was #14, where the poster talks about Saudi Arabia banning pornography.

You then bring up Norway and Denmark, suggesting that they too ban pornography. They don't at all. If you were perhaps referring to the statement upthread about them banning the objectification of women in advertisement, that's a fairly flimsy argument as well as they both feature a fair amount of nudity in advertisements, which you won't see in the U.S. at all. So if you were trying to make an argument, it's an extremely foolish one, to say the least.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #20)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:01 PM

92. Neither Denmark nor Norway have banned porn in the slightest.

You're allowed your own opinion, but not your own facts. Get them straight before you post next time.

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Response to apocalypsehow (Reply #92)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:40 PM

98. She'll tell you that that's not the point.

At that time, you might be compelled to ask her what IS the point. Then you might either be ridiculed for not getting the point or you'll be told to reread the post because you don't understand it. You won't get anything approaching an honest discussion with this one, though.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:21 AM

18. They found porn at OBL's house.

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Response to tabatha (Reply #18)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 10:41 AM

60. There was some "live" porn going on at the White House once upon a time.

 

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Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:24 AM

19. Apparently porn is widely available in Arab countries, even though it is banned.

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Response to tabatha (Reply #19)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:33 AM

21. Do you dare suggest that prohibition doesn't work?


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Response to Incitatus (Reply #21)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 01:10 AM

29. Hmm..Let's think about that for a moment..

Last edited Wed Jun 20, 2012, 01:45 AM - Edit history (1)

We do have, for all practical purposes, prohibitions that DO work,

or haven't you noticed the strong social pressure

to refrain, for instance, from using racial slurs, especially in public.

Michael Richardson was the last "known" person in the media to publicly use the

word "nigger" and he got his ass handed to him, and rightfully so.

We have virtually the same kind of taboos against

slurring other racial groups, and this, again

is a good thing, and something I don't hear ANYONE

complain about as "censorship" or a violation of their "right" to

degrade people on the basis of their "different" body color. Again, this is a good thing.

What I do NOT understand, then, is why these very same people think it's "okay"

to verbally demean people on the basis of their different body CONSTRUCTION, with slurs like

"bitch" "cunt", etc.

These are hate words, and if you hadn't noticed, they're all OVER today's porn.

So no, feminists aren't being "prudes", we're not objecting to depictions of

sex, per se....It's that ugly social "messaging" about us, our "sluttiness"

our "dirtiness", our complete dehumanization into "cum buckets"

...THAT is what we "object" to.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #29)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 02:05 AM

32. thank you. why do they keep ignoring that point?

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #32)


Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #32)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 03:38 AM

35. You're welcome and you ask an excellent question

for which I have no answer, unfortunately,

I suspect it's a mix of things...They don't want to see themselves

in a bad light, but at the same time don't want to "give up"

whatever psychological benefits arise from the "cache"

of being male in this world?

I don't know the answer...We should discuss it on one of the Feminist

forums.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #29)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 04:16 AM

37. Well said. Exactly the point. n/t

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Response to DLevine (Reply #37)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 07:40 AM

43. Thank you. n/t

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Response to whathehell (Reply #29)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 04:47 AM

38. prohibition and social pressure are two different things

just for the record.

women aligned with the religious right to pass prohibition in the U.S.

that worked out really well.

crime increased, organized crime gained a foothold in the U.S., people drank as much as before, people got alcohol poisoning,

social pressure comes in the form of public information campaigns about problems with alcohol, or people creating videos that talk about the problems of photo shopping models so that they're no longer human - and providing that information, etc.

what you have done is to claim that anyone who does not support censorship therefore supports violence in porn, etc. but this is not the reality.

the problem is when someone makes false representations of others' pov, too.

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Response to RainDog (Reply #38)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 07:40 AM

42. Yes. The thing is, I didn't introduce that concept into the discussion.

Last edited Wed Jun 20, 2012, 08:33 AM - Edit history (1)

I just reacted to it and demonstrated how social pressure could bring

about similar results, in an acceptable "bottom up" rather than "top down" way.

As to censorship, you might want to re-read the post,

as I never mention it nor "claim" anything about it.

"the problem is when someone makes false representations of others' pov, too"

Funny you should mention that, as that seems to be exactly

what you have done to me!



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Response to whathehell (Reply #42)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:06 PM

94. Your post, #29 states

We do have, for all practical purposes, prohibitions that DO work,

I said social pressure and prohibition are two different things. I was trying to note the difference because they are very different.

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Response to RainDog (Reply #94)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:43 PM

100. The key is "for all practical purposes"....Perhaps I should have put quote marks around

the word "prohibition" but I thought I had made myself clear.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #29)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 08:00 AM

73. No racial slurs in public?

Haven't spent much time in the rural south, huh?

Or several other places outside the south.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #73)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 10:39 AM

78. Any other hairs you'd like to split?

Try addressing the point.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #78)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 12:54 PM

85. It's splitting hairs to point out your post is completely wrong?

Your thesis: People don't use racist terms in public anymore.

My point: Uh....yeah, they do. A lot. You appear to have spent most of your time in places where racism is uncommon, but there's plenty of places where all sorts of foul terms will be thrown about in public.

I'm happy you seem to live in a place where racism is very uncommon. But you should recognize that everywhere is not the same as where you live and the company you keep.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #85)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:55 PM

105. Um, that's not what you did

and hitting on one example that may be geographically

qualified won't do it either, lol


In addition, do yourself a favor and look up the word "thesis"

because "people using racist terms in public"

wasn't mine...Buh bye.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #29)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:06 PM

93. This has got to be one of the most absurd false analogies I've ever seen spun on DU. n/t.

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Response to apocalypsehow (Reply #93)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:44 PM

101. Sure.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 01:20 AM

30. Cuba

Anti-porn and women's rights have improved tremendously over the last few decades.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #30)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 01:19 PM

68. same w/ the soviet union

the situation for women changed completely post-collapse, of course. which i take it to mean there is a strong connection b/w sexual exploitation and capitalism, and organized crime in particular.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 08:19 AM

45. Locking. Please repost in the newest forum: General Discussion-Porn

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Response to FSogol (Reply #45)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 09:25 AM

74. the most crowded forum

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Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 09:52 AM

56. Well we have the First Amendment, so we cannot ban it,

unless it actually depicts a crime.

Even so, it doesn't mean people have to like it, especially women. I can understand women who might feel threatened by it.

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Response to treestar (Reply #56)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 04:08 PM

118. ......

Not merely "threatened"...How 'bout "degraded" and "shat upon"?

As for the first amendment, it's funny how that's never called into

question when we talk about respect for OTHER groups.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 06:45 AM

71. Societies that ban women treat porn really well

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Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 07:32 AM

72. excellent logic you've got going there, and of course no on is calling for a ban

 

on porn, but the strawman is so much easier to knock down than the actual arguments against SOME KINDS of porn.

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Response to StarryNight (Reply #72)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 09:44 AM

75. It certainly does test the theory that porn leads to dehumanizing women which leads to

 

mistreating them.

Those cultures that dehumanize women the most (both by custom and by the law) are among the first to restrict pornography.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #75)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 11:05 AM

82. The most pertinent point, IMO, was the "countries that ban porn = Women as 3rd class citizens"

statement.

That's probably true..The problem is, at this point in time,

the countries that do NOT ban porn, treat them as Second Class citizens.

Yeah, sure, that's better than Third, but still not exactly ideal.

The fact is, most western industrialized countries have a better

record on human rights generally, but that doesn't refute the fact that there is no INHERENT

connection between "porn tolerance" and respect for women, in fact, I would argue the opposite,

the difference existing between first and third world countries is just a matter of degree.

What we see in porn-tolerant western societies represents a kind "half way" mark on the

evolutionary road of women's rights.

When women have FIRST class citizenship, there will be no tolerance for abusive porn,

and I think that working against female-negative pornography might

just bring about that day sooner.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #82)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 11:09 AM

83. However

 

people who don't support any restrictions on porn don't need to prove there is no correlation between porn and violence.

BUT, people who do want restrictions must prove such a correlation exists to be taken seriously.

At best, from their standpoint, all that can be proven is that no correlation exists. Maybe porn leads to societies that treat women better. Maybe (more likely) societies that already treat women better are more open about sex and pornography. Who knows. All that can be said conclusively is that no significant link exists between the accessibility of pornography and treatment of women.

And I take issue with your notion that women are second class citizens in first world democracies. That is not the case.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #83)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 01:47 PM

89. Yes, I think we're all aware of that.

When it comes to social science, it's difficult to "prove" anything, and you probably know

that...That being as it may, there IS evidence that repeated exposure to "dehumanizing pornography"

results in diminished sensitivity to women in men and to two times the level in desire to rape,

among other things.

http://www.protectkids.com/effects/justharmlessfun.pdf

This is one link, but it does links to a number of other studies, including those

which allegedly do NOT indicate a negative correlation of porn to abuse of

and insensitivity to women.

In a broader sense, however, I'd have to ask if we really need to "prove" a link?

To men terrified of losing their "rights" to see women brutalized and humiliated, I'm sure we do, but
beyond that, I'm not so sure. After all, did we need "proof" that stereotypical "grinning and shuffling" images of African-Americans contributed to their social denigration?...No. Did we need "proof" that the "Frito Bandito" was injurious to the
image of Mexican-Americans?...No. Did we then need proof that the lisping, limp wristed portrayal of gay men was harmful? --again, No.

Those spoke for themselves, just as degrading images of women speak for themselves. If women, as a group, possessed the power, money and social status of men, those things wouldn't exist...At least not for "entertainment".
One thing IS worth noting in comparing the treatment of those minorities with that of women, though, and that is that all of the OTHER oppressed groups include men, although, that, I'm sure is "just a coincidence", lol

The obvious reluctance of men to empathize with the other half of humanity to the point of giving up this "last badge"
of superiority is, I believe, what is standing in the way...That, and the profit motive of the manufacturers, of course.

You "take issue" with the notion that women are second class citizens?....Interesting, if not surprising...Then again, you are NOT a woman, are you? Since that's the case, you'll have to forgive me if I don't take your opinion too seriously....It strikes me about
as valid as the opinions of white people in America who believe "racism doesn't exist anymore".

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Response to whathehell (Reply #89)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 01:55 PM

90. It's interesting

 

in the last half of your response you completely ignore my opinion because I'm a man so I can't know how women think about this subject.

Ok, but then you spend the first half telling me how men who watch porn think (terrified of losing rights, men cannot empathize with women, we enjoy watching women harmed, etc).

So either you're a hermaphrodite or you are being hypocritical here.

And your link is more of the same: well it seems likely that . . . we believe that . . . how else could this be but . . .

We seem to be looking at this from a different way. I am looking at it factually: can porn accessibility be linked to anything significant?

You are looking at it based on how you feel: how do I feel porn makes an impact? What do I personally think about.

I don't deny that you don't like it. I'm cool with that. Just don't translate that in to anything other than your personal opinion.

And we are not all aware of the need to post proof of a positive claim. I had a rather lengthy discussion with a person on this board who insisted that I disprove porn caused rape.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #90)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:39 PM

97. Okay, I'm about done with you, but

I'll correct you on a few things first:

A. "in the last half of your response you completely ignore my opinion because I'm a man so I can't know how women think about this subject".

You still don't get it, in fact your wording, on its own, indicates that fact. To you it's a "subject" of which you have NO first hand experience...To me and and other WOMEN, it's LIFE.....It's not a question of "ignoring" your opinion, but, of necessity, it's going to be OUTWEIGHED by the opinion of women themselves. That REALLY can't be too hard to grasp, can it?....Example: When I, as a white person, first heard that native Americans were offended by certain sports names and mascots like "Chief Illini" and the "Washington Redskins", my first thought was "Gee..what's so bad about that?...That seems over-sensitive"?...My second thought was "But wait a minute..I'm NOT
a native American, so while I STILL may not fully understand, I'm going to let THEM have the last word on the subject,
since it is THEIR identity"....Get the connection?...Trust me, were I as clueless and ARROGANT as you appear to be, I'm sure I
would "tell" them how they should feel....Since I'm neither of those thing, I have the brains to refrain from doing so!


Yes, I AM looking at it on the basis of "how I feel", just as Black, Latinos and other minorities looked at debasing images of themselves and made their opinions known on the basis of how THEY felt....Would you be so totally "out of touch" with them as to to tell them
that THEIR feelings don't matter, because you're in possession of some superior "facts" relative to their position that THEY don't have?

When you acquire the brains and/or sensitivity to honestly answer that question, let me know..Until then,
I'll be wishing you 'good day'.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #97)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:55 PM

106. Er, you kinda ignored my point

 

Ok so let's say you are in possession of the sole source on information on how women feel about this subject and it is like your holocaust. Fine. Whatever.

But then you can't also go on and lecture me about how men feel as if you had some insight.

To use your example this would be like a native american tribe giving their opinion not just on how native americans are referenced but also witholding the right to tell white people when they are being offended as well.

Pick a gender and stick with it. You want to come at this issue as a woman? Fine. But then don't tell men what they are thinking at the same time.

Although I am glad you realized that this is entirely about your feelings on the subject. Not some much referenced but never explained societal harm. You don't like it because XYZ. Fine. No one ever denied you the right to not like it.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #106)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:57 PM

108. Er, you kinda ignored mine as well.

Buh Bye.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #108)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:58 PM

109. Tschüss

 

I'll message you if I ever need someone to womansplain how men think to me.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #108)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 03:02 PM

110. Well, in his defense...

You really haven't made any of note.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #110)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 03:09 PM

112. Well, in mine

You get lamer by the post, lol.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #112)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 03:13 PM

115. I thought I wasn't going to get blessed with your insightful posts anymore?

I'm glad you thought better of it. lol.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #82)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 01:17 PM

87. The INHERENT connection is personal freedom and privacy

Griswold and Roe are based on the same general idea as legalizing porn... that the state is limited in its ability to intrude into certain spheres of life. The porn decisions relied on different constitutional reasoning, having the First Amendment to use, but the philosophical and emotional motivation of the justices (which is, unfortunately, at least 50% of constitutional law in practice) was the same... this is none of the government's business.

You want to have sex using contraception? That's a sin. An outrage against god. A denial of the legitimate state interest in more citizens... whatever.

But when push comes to shove it is your business. Being gay is your business. Watching porn is your business. Shacking up versus getting married is your business.

You are free to imagine that kicking one leg from the stool of co-mingled autonomy and privacy rights leaves the stool standing. Others are free to disagree.

Either way, the fact is that the anti-porn feminists are "useful idiots" (Orwell's phrase) lending cultural support (however well-intentioned) to banning abortion and outlawing sodomy.

Our modern panoply of rights is a structure, not a buffet.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #87)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 01:27 PM

88. Excellent post that ties all of the theoretical threads

 

together quite marvelously. Tug on one thread and the others unravel.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #87)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 01:59 PM

91. Sorry, but that's not an "inherent" connection, it's a LEGAL one, and as such

is reflective of modern social mores....Slavery and Denial of Rights to certain groups

were also once LEGAL. Calling Blacks "nigger" could probably be construed

as "legal" and a matter of "personal freedom" as well, but social pressure, which reflects both the

rising POWER of the heretofore oppressed group AND a larger awareness of the feelings of others

generally works at keeping people from using that "personal freedom".

When women are able to wield similar influence, those social pressures will kick in as well.



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Response to whathehell (Reply #91)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:25 PM

95. You're missing the point.

 

The right to privacy -that the government has no justification in regulating certain aspects of one's personal life is the legal doctrine that knits together Griswold v. Connecticut (striking down bans on provision of contraception to married couples) Loving v. Virginia (striking down miscegnation laws), Eisenstadt v. Baird (striking down laws prohibiting distribution of contaceptives to single persons), and Roe v. Wade. Sexually explicit materials are also covered by the First Amendment, and the right to possess and view them is also a matter that absolutely implicates the right to privacy.

The underlying justification is the same. One cannot remove the right to privacy as it relates to porn without undermining the rationale of Griswold, Loving, Baird and Roe. Dilute or undermine that principle and I can guaran-damn-tee you that you can kiss all of those cases but Loving goodbye within ten years.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #95)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:41 PM

99. No, you're missing mine

and since I've made it abundantly clear, I won't be repeating it.

Goodbye and good luck!

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Response to StarryNight (Reply #72)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 10:40 AM

79. Thank you. n/t

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Response to StarryNight (Reply #72)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 04:27 PM

120. Thank you...Most men here react to negative commentary on ANY sort of porn like the prototypical

wingnut putting his fingers in his ears and chanting:

"NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH" !

Writer Susan Brownmiller said it clearly in her prize winning

book on rape "Against Our Will":

"The liberal male mind, so quick to make the connection

between negative images of minorities and their second class status,

is fiercely obdurate when it comes to the treatment of women".


They're completely unwilling to see it from any other viewpoint but their own.


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Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 10:37 AM

77. Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

Third one of the morning...

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #77)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 01:08 PM

86. No, you are mistaken

The OP notes a correlation, it does not say "therefore..." and it certainly does not argue that better treatment of women arises from legalization of pornography.

So if we are talking fallacies, you are guilty of a straw-man argument in claiming the OP asserts things it does not.

_________

A sideways point... If I were making a formal argument in the OP it would not be one of causation, but one of necessary co-existence or co-development. Legalizing porn did not cause legalizing abortion, or visa-versa. It is, however, a fact that the two were two expressions of a larger movement, and since the ethical and philosophical underpinnings of a whole host of freedoms are intertwined it is not obvious that reversing one does not undermine all.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #86)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:30 PM

96. The word "therefore" is not necc if it is implied.

Third one this morning. The word "therefore" is not necc if it is implied.

Righteous cowboys, indeed.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #96)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:50 PM

103. Now you add mind-reading

Erroneous assertion of what is implied is a common when building a straw-man.

You set 'em up. You knock 'em down. If there's fun in it for you, that's cool.

But no reasonable person would read the OP as stating, or even implying, that the correlation is causal.

That does not, however, make the correlation of no interest.

There are reasons for the correlation that are, though not causal, quite informative.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 11:16 AM

84. like they do in China?

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Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)


Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 10:33 PM

122. Sad

 

Commercialization of literally everything in our lives is a sad commentary on our society. This is though how our economy works and the imperative of profit at all costs. Case in point, the Ukraine. We destabilized the country and one consequence is that the region is now the leading exporter of sex workers to Western countries. For a society to be conquered, it needs to disintegrate to such a degree that its people are desperate to the point of resorting to selling themselves. The profiteer societies, which I suppose Norway is now among, need to be taught to consume the sex services that are now on offer as a result, thus completing the perverse economic loop. I lived in Norway years ago and think this development is sad. The first time I came across my nephew viewing quite hardcore pornography, he was 9 years old. The Internet, of course, makes this possible by anyone, of any age, anywhere at anytime. Small children are being taught intimacy from an exploitative and abusive industry. They're taught that sexual aggression and sexual self-harm is normal. I live next door to a quick mart that places graphic porn magazines at the eye level height of a small child next to the candy rack. Children from the neighborhood frequent the shop and learn early that sex servicing and sex work is completely normal. Sex workers are disproportionately represented by the economically disadvantaged, the young and very young, and ethnic minorities. Less healthy, safe and natural sexuality, less love, intimacy, gentleness, caring, and tenderness. More degradation of the human spirit, more survival sex, sex trafficking, child porn, teen porn, youth servicing adults. Hooray! Another win for inhumanity!

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