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Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:19 PM

 

I was stopped today at the Bus Stop by the TSA.

He wanted to see my drivers license.

Why would he need to see my drivers license if I was not operating a motor vehicle?

I wasn't wearing a turbin, a head scarf or a Burka...?

I showed him my license.. I wanted to get home and was too tired to argue.

The TSA is expanding their territory...

179 replies, 46799 views

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Reply I was stopped today at the Bus Stop by the TSA. (Original post)
lib2DaBone Jun 2012 OP
woo me with science Jun 2012 #1
LiberalLoner Jun 2012 #2
malthaussen Jun 2012 #3
KG Jun 2012 #4
treestar Jun 2012 #79
rhett o rick Jun 2012 #84
randome Jun 2012 #87
treestar Jun 2012 #97
demwing Jun 2012 #106
Robb Jun 2012 #109
treestar Jun 2012 #111
demwing Jun 2012 #118
whatchamacallit Jun 2012 #123
tblue37 Jun 2012 #168
treestar Jun 2012 #169
magical thyme Jun 2012 #103
treestar Jun 2012 #112
rhett o rick Jun 2012 #88
RobertEarl Jun 2012 #5
grasswire Jun 2012 #6
SammyWinstonJack Jun 2012 #74
enough Jun 2012 #7
demobabe Jun 2012 #8
notadmblnd Jun 2012 #9
RebelOne Jun 2012 #17
TheKentuckian Jun 2012 #10
panader0 Jun 2012 #11
Meiko Jun 2012 #40
grantcart Jun 2012 #146
panader0 Jun 2012 #149
grantcart Jun 2012 #154
panader0 Jun 2012 #156
grantcart Jun 2012 #162
Honeycombe8 Jun 2012 #12
freedom fighter jh Jun 2012 #15
KT2000 Jun 2012 #13
Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2012 #14
grantcart Jun 2012 #151
Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2012 #153
grantcart Jun 2012 #158
Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2012 #170
grantcart Jun 2012 #178
Sen. Walter Sobchak Jul 2012 #179
demwing Jun 2012 #16
A HERETIC I AM Jun 2012 #19
demwing Jun 2012 #30
grasswire Jun 2012 #89
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #18
malthaussen Jun 2012 #26
zeemike Jun 2012 #27
Zalatix Jun 2012 #36
Egalitarian Thug Jun 2012 #35
suffragette Jun 2012 #73
lunatica Jun 2012 #78
freedom fighter jh Jun 2012 #20
pasto76 Jun 2012 #21
treestar Jun 2012 #80
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #92
Historic NY Jun 2012 #22
lies and propaganda Jun 2012 #23
greytdemocrat Jun 2012 #24
suffragette Jun 2012 #62
grantcart Jun 2012 #148
suffragette Jun 2012 #175
RoccoR5955 Jun 2012 #25
spiderpig Jun 2012 #28
NNN0LHI Jun 2012 #29
malthaussen Jun 2012 #33
Ms. Toad Jun 2012 #95
GoneOffShore Jun 2012 #31
demwing Jun 2012 #34
demwing Jun 2012 #32
Fire Walk With Me Jun 2012 #38
DiverDave Jun 2012 #83
whatchamacallit Jun 2012 #126
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #132
PavePusher Jun 2012 #140
coalition_unwilling Jun 2012 #37
KamaAina Jun 2012 #135
Warren DeMontague Jun 2012 #39
GeorgeGist Jun 2012 #41
rug Jun 2012 #42
PavePusher Jun 2012 #143
xxqqqzme Jun 2012 #150
randome Jun 2012 #43
demwing Jun 2012 #44
randome Jun 2012 #45
NNN0LHI Jun 2012 #46
demwing Jun 2012 #48
NNN0LHI Jun 2012 #49
demwing Jun 2012 #56
PavePusher Jun 2012 #145
NNN0LHI Jun 2012 #165
PavePusher Jun 2012 #166
demwing Jun 2012 #47
randome Jun 2012 #50
demwing Jun 2012 #55
randome Jun 2012 #57
demwing Jun 2012 #66
randome Jun 2012 #68
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #133
randome Jun 2012 #137
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #160
randome Jun 2012 #163
DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2012 #58
randome Jun 2012 #59
treestar Jun 2012 #81
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #136
treestar Jun 2012 #141
randome Jun 2012 #142
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #173
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #161
KatChatter Jun 2012 #51
Octafish Jun 2012 #52
Proles Jun 2012 #53
slackmaster Jun 2012 #54
snot Jun 2012 #60
randome Jun 2012 #67
GarroHorus Jun 2012 #61
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #129
randome Jun 2012 #130
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #157
GarroHorus Jun 2012 #138
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #171
GarroHorus Jun 2012 #174
randome Jun 2012 #164
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #172
treestar Jun 2012 #63
suffragette Jun 2012 #72
treestar Jun 2012 #76
suffragette Jun 2012 #77
treestar Jun 2012 #82
suffragette Jun 2012 #100
mainer Jun 2012 #64
spanone Jun 2012 #65
woo me with science Jun 2012 #69
stlsaxman Jun 2012 #70
MineralMan Jun 2012 #71
suffragette Jun 2012 #75
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #85
MineralMan Jun 2012 #91
demwing Jun 2012 #108
Robb Jun 2012 #110
demwing Jun 2012 #115
treestar Jun 2012 #113
demwing Jun 2012 #116
treestar Jun 2012 #119
demwing Jun 2012 #121
treestar Jun 2012 #122
demwing Jun 2012 #125
randome Jun 2012 #128
texanwitch Jun 2012 #94
suffragette Jun 2012 #98
Robb Jun 2012 #86
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #90
Robb Jun 2012 #96
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #99
Robb Jun 2012 #101
treestar Jun 2012 #114
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #134
treestar Jun 2012 #139
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #159
lookingfortruth Jun 2012 #93
woo me with science Jun 2012 #102
demwing Jun 2012 #104
Fla_Democrat Jun 2012 #105
demwing Jun 2012 #107
malthaussen Jun 2012 #117
demwing Jun 2012 #120
woo me with science Jun 2012 #131
kenny blankenship Jun 2012 #155
whatchamacallit Jun 2012 #124
haele Jun 2012 #127
tawadi Jun 2012 #144
PavePusher Jun 2012 #147
kenny blankenship Jun 2012 #152
tblue37 Jun 2012 #167
Matariki Jun 2012 #176
demwing Jun 2012 #177

Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:20 PM

1. Papers, please.

Occupy.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:21 PM

2. Scary. :( And it sucks.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:22 PM

3. Only the Bad People will have anything to fear.

Now, tell that three-year-old to spread her legs wider!

-- Mal

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:23 PM

4. but, but, we don't live in a police state....

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Response to KG (Reply #4)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 02:54 PM

79. We don't, as OP did not have to produce the license

and could have challenged any detention in a court of law. OP could have asked by what authority the alleged TSA agent asked him for a license. OP chose the easy path and that would be if anything, the bigger reason why we would slide into a police state.

If we lived in a police state, the OP could not publicly relate the above or complain about it without consequences. We could not condemn it out loud and the government would have your IP address and come knocking on the door.

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Response to treestar (Reply #79)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 05:08 PM

84. I suggest you read

 

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #84)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 05:38 PM

87. Okay.

 

So to use Milton Mayer's analogies:
1. What are the things we are expected to do?
2. What do we do that leaves us no time to think?
3. Where are the papers we are demanded to complete? (Other than loan applications, etc.)
4. Who is our modern day Hitler?

It goes on into parallels with Nazi Socialism but that's where I get even more lost.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #84)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:53 PM

97. I live in the U.S.

and have all my life. It's not a police state.

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Response to treestar (Reply #97)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 08:54 AM

106. Sounds like a mantra

 

"The Litany Against Oppression"

I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.

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Response to demwing (Reply #106)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 09:14 AM

109. Helps to get out once in a while.

Work in a police state a let us know how it's just like this.

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Response to demwing (Reply #106)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 10:49 AM

111. The US is not a police state

That is a statement of fact. People calling it a police state are ignorant of what a police state is. There are some - study up on them.

The alleged TSA guy asking for ID is subject to the law here. If we lived in a police state, it wouldn't be so. OP would not be able to complain publicly and could go to court. Therefore, the US is not a police state.

Though we should be vigilant that it remain so, there is no reason to exaggerate and be ridiculous. People in real police states could tell you that if they didn't live in a police state.

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Response to treestar (Reply #111)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 11:21 AM

118. What is one man's "reason to exaggerate and be ridiculous"

 

is another man's reason to explicate and ridicule

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Response to treestar (Reply #111)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 11:39 AM

123. Not yet

But thanks to Sensible Woodchucks refusing to acknowledge the encroaching state, it will be soon. I believe many will come to regret their slavish, cult of personality devotion.

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Response to treestar (Reply #111)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 08:30 PM

168. It is not black or white. A society does not normally go from

"free" to "police state overnight." There is a lead-up to the police state, with the state encroaching more and more on individual freedoms and civil rights. Because the encroachment is gradual, the poor frog doesn't realize it is being cooked until the water is so hot he has no more chance to escape the cookpot.

Meanwhile, the frogs who begin to comment on how hot the water in our pot seems to be keep hearing from the other frogs that it is not boiling water, and if the nervous frog thinks the water is so hot, he should try sitting in a pot of real boiling water. Then he would understand that the water in our pot is really just comfortably warm!

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #168)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 09:15 PM

169. Again, this alleged victim of TSA malfeasance

Lives in a country where he can post about it, write letters to the editor and sue - he won't be jailed. If what the TSA guy did was wrong, he will have consequences.

In a police state, you show your ID and better not say anything to complain about it, or you can find yourself in indefinite, incognito detention.

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Response to treestar (Reply #79)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 08:35 AM

103. what would have happened if OP had refused

 

or was taking the bus because OP didn't have a license?

Detention? Missing the bus...being late to, or even missing, work...being fired for being late to work...losing home after being fired for being late to work....losing children after not showing up to bring them home from daycare?

When such fears play at the back of your mind, 'going along with it' isn't taking the easy way out, it's taking the only sensible way forward. And that is what they are counting on.

Stopping people to check their licenses before getting on a bus? Fuck yeah, 'cause otherwise the terr'ists is gonna get us.

News flash. The terr'ists already got us.

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Response to magical thyme (Reply #103)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 10:52 AM

112. If so much is at stake

What is being late to work? If our freedom can be taken away because we don't want to be late to work, we're complacent.

It would have been easier for Rosa Parks just to get up and go to the back of the bus. Some things are worth fighting for. Your post indicates that it is not worth it, just roll over and be the victims of a police state, over minor things.

If you are fired for being late to work that day, you have a bigger case. No one "loses" their children from not picking them up or has no alternative in the face of fighting an incipient police state. Your post shows you know we don't fight an incipient police state, and that's why it was not worth the OP's time to fight against it.

If the TSA is really abusing their power, someone will make a case of it. Look at our history and you can bet on that. And the courts will hear the case and decide. That doesn't happen in police states.

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Response to KG (Reply #4)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 05:51 PM

88. Yesterday no TSA in the bus stops but they're there today.

 

Yesterday unarmed drones in American skies, today armed drones. The Patriot Act is here to stay as is domestic spying and indefinite detention. Today most cities have police armed like the Army. The noose tightens and some are still in denial. Looks like we are losing verifiable elections.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:24 PM

5. I told you

 

Leave the DU shirt at home!

Get your hair cut, quit wearing flip-flops and smile, always smile.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:24 PM

6. can you please tell generally where this happened?

If that happened to me, I would write to my congressman about it. Outrageous! Too much blood was spilled in WW2 to let this kind of tyranny take root here.

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Response to grasswire (Reply #6)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 01:42 PM

74. TPTB imported the tyranny here after WW2.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:25 PM

7. Appalling. (nt)

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:27 PM

8. Wow, when something like this happens to me...

...I always ask, "am I being arrested?"

They usually back down real quick.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:28 PM

9. I'd have told him that if I had a DL, then I wouldn't need to be waiting for the freaking bus

But I've always been a smart ass.

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Response to notadmblnd (Reply #9)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 09:46 PM

17. I agree. I would have told him the same thing. n/t

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:45 PM

10. Time to defund, dismantle, and restrict all the way to a Constitutional amendment

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:46 PM

11. I get outraged when I have to go through the Border Patrol stops to go north from where I live

in So. Az. They bring the dog up to the truck for a sniff, ask me if I'm a US citizen, and let me go.
Once, a friend's truck was alerted on by a dog, and the BP drove the truck 60 miles to x-ray the fuel tank.
Nothing was found and my friend had to lose the 120 gas miles, but about 4 hours of time.
Geez, I live in this country, but if you live close to the border as I do, you are subject to extra shit.

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Response to panader0 (Reply #11)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 04:34 AM

40. No kidding huh

 

they close the entire freeway coming from San Diego and play 20 questions with everyone, it's bullshit.

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Response to panader0 (Reply #11)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 03:09 PM

146. I have gone through hundreds of times and never had anything but a courteous exchange

My wife is a permanent resident and most of the time they don't even ask to see the ID.

I would rather go through a hundred BP check points that some local or state policeman who is trying to enforce some AZ law where my wife can go to jail because she didn't happen to carry her papers.

One time I was behind a Vons truck and the dogs alerted and they opened it up an there were about 70 people crammed inside. Turns out they stole the truck.

Currently they are picking up a tidal wave of of Meth coming to the US at the checkpoints, hidden many times hidden in gas tanks:

http://www.mydesert.com/article/20120612/NEWS0801/206120315/Border-Patrol-makes-476-800-meth-bust?odyssey=mod%7Cnewswell%7Ctext%7CFrontpage%7Cs

here are some examples of other meth grabs, all of which had to be confirmed with imaging.

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/archives/2012_news_releases/april_2012/04272012_10.xml

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/archives/2011_news_releases/may_2011/05262011_3.xml

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/archives/2012_news_releases/february_2012/02092012_9.xml

These are all very recent examples of meth being found inside hidden compartments on vehicles and just in the last few weeks there have been a dozen similar finds in the sectors between El Centro and El Paso, all alerted by dogs and confirmed by imaging.

For the record I doubt the 60 mile part of your friends story because they have mobile imaging devices available at the highway stops and if the imaging isn't working they have other means to inspect at the secondary point to see if there has been any after market soldering or changes to things like gas tanks. My guess is that he was pulled over for half an hour and added the embelishment.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #146)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 03:24 PM

149. I am very anti-meth

I have lost friends to it. Just to mention, tons of meth is made in this country.
What I am against is being stopped at all within the borders of this country.
That's what the border is for.
Folks who live as close to the border as I do are subject to more "law" enforcement than those who live a bit further north.
As to my friends "claim"; he was stopped at the station north of Huachuca City on Hwy. 90. His truck was driven to Naco, on the US border, while he was driven in the back of a BR truck. I'm looking at my map, and it may be slightly less than 60 miles, like 57, one way. He does not embellish. Perhaps the BP stops where you live have better equipment. At any rate, he was released in Naco with no reimbursement for gas or consideration for the hours lost.

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Response to panader0 (Reply #149)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 03:48 PM

154. Its not possible to stop all of the bad agents within 10 feet of the border.

For that reason the courts have given the Border Patrol a geographical area in close proximity to the border (I believe that it is less than 100 miles) where they can legally conduct their operations.

If I was your friend I would call the sector office and make a complaint that the officers should have been able to conduct a visual inspection of the underside of the car (all of the stops have a little drive on lift) at the scondary inspection point at the highway check point.

Accepting that your friends version is accurate it would seem to me that there may need to be some strengthening of procedures because the trip to the imaging test wasn't really necessary. He should also write to the sector headquarters and keep a copy of the letter with him in the car so that if it happens again he can show it.

Again gvien that the cartels are now moving huge amounts of meth into the country and given that the dogs are the most effective (by far) way of finding hidden loads I think it is reasonable for the border patrol to make stops and do secondary inspections. If the imaging isn't available I think it is reasonable for the driver to insist that what ever secondary inspection needs to be done has to be done at the stop.

I am guessing that if your friend contacts the head of the sector (or the public relations officer) they will find that is the policy and the agents at this stop were in error.

If not then I would agree that a 57 mile to an imaging station is excessive unless there were signs of tampering, and that they should contact the congressperson for the areas and start a dialogue.

Didn't mean to cast asparagus on your friend but 95% of the stuff at DU about border security is simply not true.

For example I just posted this in reference to a charge that I know is not true about TSA (TSA employees don't even have arrest authority so the allegation is silly).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=820305

Here is someone posting about the TSA going into bus stops and the link they provide is for a METRO police operation that some bus rider thought was a TSA operation http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=820290.

I would be interested in the reaction that your friend gets if he contacts that sector, I have the ability to confirm whether or not it was correct policy or an error by the agents in the field.

BTW the imaging is providing unbelievable results. It has gone mostly unreported but Customs has seized a huge amount of arms going back to Mexico by starting to do images on suspicious south bound traffic.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #154)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 04:03 PM

156. I agree that not all of the meth can be caught "within 10 feet of the border".

Tons of meth is made in almost every state of this country. Why not just set up inspection stations every 50 miles or so on every road? I'll bet if everyone in every state was stopped and dog sniffed and questioned, they would be pissed too. Why are legal citizens as myself subject to extra-examination? These stops seem wrong to me. Dope is caught at the border here almost daily. Why is there a "100 mile" buffer zone for US citizens when it doesn't exist in other parts of the country?

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Response to panader0 (Reply #156)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 04:45 PM

162. The buffer zone is next to the border because they can't catch everyone within 10 feet of the border

Customs officers are authorized to operate within 100 feet of the Port of Entry after that they cannot legally continue, even a hot pursuit. For this reason Border Patrol officers are also stationed at Ports of Entry.

Border Patrol is authorized to interdict in the areas next to the border.

ICE is authorized to investigate and arrest through out the United States and its territories.

The Supreme Court has defined an area next to the border where the Border Patrol is authorized to act, the reason for the size of the area I believe is because of the rugged geopgraphy of the area.

During the Obama administration the Border Patrol has been ordered out of many urban areas (like Las Cruzes, New Mexico) as part of their regular patrols and those areas are supervised by ICE who is operating under strict guidelines to focus all resources on illegal aliens who are involved in criminal enterprizes and leave the others alone.

You began by objecting to the particular way your friend was treated and it is possible there was an error by the agents in not conducting the secondary visual inspection there, and I made a constructive suggestion.

The facts are that the highway checkpoints are continued because once the drug and human smugglers jump the fence the most effective way to get them is when they try to leave the area. Beacuse of the desert and mountains of the Southern border it is a fact that all travel to the rest of the country has to go through a few highways, a few geographic funnels. If the geography was different and it was flat and heavily populated, the highway checkpoints wouldn't be effective because you could circumvent them with street roads. Having a second check point after the border creates a funnel where the contraband must go through. While it is possible to around some of the East West highways it is not possible to avoid the North/South highways and they get a huge amount of contraband even with the cartels knowing that they are going to be checked. So effective have these checkpoints become that the cartels have even tried to paint their own FEDEX trucks, and in one case paint their own Customs vehicle, which to their bad luck got a flat tire.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:46 PM

12. What's TSA? I know what HSA is. nt

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #12)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 09:43 PM

15. Transportation Security Administration,

part of the Dept. of Homeland Security

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:55 PM

13. was it TSA for sure

or was it Border Patrol for Homeland Security?
Our area (rural NW Washington) is swamped with 43 agents who have nothing to do.They have tons of vehicles, a helicopter, a new $10 million facility and lots of other toys I am sure.
Our congressman made them stop their roadblaocks to check ID. It pay to have elected reps and senators who are Democrats.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 08:17 PM

14. The TSA makes an appearance on the San Diego Trolley

 

trolling for illegal immigrants, the border patrol and police are there too.

Needless to say they bring the same spirit of professionalism and respect to their work outside the airport, up to and including the use of racial slurs.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #14)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 03:25 PM

151. It is absolutely untrue that the TSA has ever looked for any illegal immigrants


ICE whose authority it is to enforce immigration violations also is not looking for any illegal immigrants in the San Diego sector.

In the year 2011 only one non criminal civilian was picked up by the ICE in the San Diego sector and the Agent was reprimanded.

Also the TSA has the highest employment of nonwhite employees in the US Government, now surpassing the Post Office.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #151)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 03:43 PM

153. I was there and it made the news.

 

When I told the TSA guy to fuck off his exact words were "Chill out we're just looking for (derogatory term for Hispanics)".

Border Patrol, TSA Operation at Trolley Stop Leads to Deportation of 3 Students
http://www.cbs8.com/global/story.asp?s=10414066

A border patrol spokesman said the agency does not conduct raids and denies charges of racial profiling. The spokesman added that this was a case of border patrol assisting the TSA in a routine operation.

Okay... so what other operation would the TSA be engaged in that requires border patrol assistance?

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #153)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 04:19 PM

158. Your are completely intellectually dishonest.

In your preedited version there was no mention of the border patrol.

Yes the border patrol has arresting authority.


Now for the spurious allegation that you were able to get a TSA employee to admit that they were "looking for (derogatory term for Hispanics", after you told them to 'fuck off'.

I don't believe that you told the officer to 'fuck off'.

I don't believe that he told you that he was "looking for (derogatory term for Hispanics".

I don't believe that the the TSA "targets Hispanics"

Googling "TSA targets hispanics" I find zero hits for 2012

but the most recent hit is for something in June of 2011 in Newark.


So you are alleging that the TSA is conducting operations to troll for Hispanics even though if they found any they would be unable to take any action because they are not LEOs (Federal Law Enforcement Officers) and do not have authority to make an arrest or detain an illegal immigrant, and that the TSA is conducting operations for Hispanics and using racial slurs even though no one else in the entire nation has seen the TSA do the same thing anywhere else.

I don't even believe that you were on the trolley.

So in addition to this enormous coincidence of you being on the only public trasportation where TSA agents are accused of brazenly admitting in public that they are going after in a trolley that was filled with Hispanics in a city where Hispanics are the largest ethnic group in front of Border Patrol agents who 60% of the time in the San Diego sector are Hispanic after you told a TSA employee who, in San Diego, is most likely to be Hispanic to go "fuck himself" he confided to you that he was really only after "derogatory term for Hispanics"?

Do you have any idea how deranged you sound?

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Response to grantcart (Reply #158)

Mon Jun 18, 2012, 12:20 AM

170. I sound deranged?

 

You flat out deny that the TSA is engaged in immigration enforcement, I show you an example where I was present, the immigration authorities described themselves as acting in support of a "routine TSA operation" - and like at the airport... they were behaving like swaggering dipshits. And it not being an airport people were significantly less guarded in sharing their thoughts about their employer.

In what "routine" capacity would the TSA be performing that requires participation of immigration authorities?

In any event, here was the first google hit when I tried:
http://www.kcci.com/Some-Upset-By-Bus-Station-TSA-Sweep/-/9357770/7313896/-/t3n24a/-/index.html

The VIPR operation was held at the Greyhound bus depot. TSA officials said it was designed as a deterrent against terrorists.

Some who witnessed the actions said they questioned what was really going on.

"It creates an environment, an atmosphere at the local level that police and officers are prioritizing the profiling of Hispanics," said Alex Orozco, who witnessed the VIPR operation.

Orozco who also happens to be a board member for the Iowa ACLU said skin color and national origin appeared to be the resons passengers were being singled out tuesday afternoon.

(snip)

The TSA told KCCI that they want people to know the agency is here to protect the transportation infrastructure. The agency is not responsible for enforcement of immigration law, but two agents from immigration and customs enforcement were also at the bus station during the sweep.


So, again I ask you. Why is it when the TSA takes their security theater festival on the road immigration authorities are close at hand?

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #170)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 02:17 PM

178. ICE have multiple joint task forces where they are used solely to target suspected members of gangs


and other aliens involved with criminal activities. These targets are identified by their close association with convicted felons, their sustaining a high standard of living without any 'visible means of support' (i.e. driving a late model car and living in an expensive housing while never going to work) and going to places frequented by gang members).

The most significant change in the three border security agencies is that ICE has stopped 'trolling' for undocumented aliens and targets those that meet a well defined matrix of likely criminal connections. As a result the number of deportations of illegal aliens with a criminal connection has sky rocketed.

Your completely fantastical report was not about being "present" at a situation involving TSA but your 'heroic' involvement jumping up


When I told the TSA guy to fuck off his exact words were "Chill out we're just looking for (derogatory term for Hispanics)".


This is, of course, complete bullshit.

You didn't tell him to "fuck off" and he didn't confide to you that he was " just looking for (derogatory term for Hispanics)".

We have seen this type of bullshit before, normally from Republicans. So hateful of government officials they think that it is perfectly fine to invent stories and statements. This is exactly what Breitbart did with Shirley Sherrod.

But if you want to stick to your story and claim that you witnessed TSA officials admitting that they were racially profiling for Hispanics and using expletive deleted words in public (lol) then the following is also true;

You saw a criminal action by a government official and you did not take down the name of the official, the relevant facts and;

1) Contact the US Prosecutor's office and under oath make a complaint that would result in prosecution.

2) Contact the Internal Affairs office of the TSA and under oath make a complaint that would result in official disciplinary action against a TSA employee.

3) Contact the Internal Affairs office of the Border Patrol and under oath make a complaint that would result in official disciplinary action against a Border Patrol Agent.

I think you were better off simply trying to twist a story, but if you insist on clinging to the preposterous then instead of being just another anonymous blusterer trying to make them self important by inserting themselves into a story then you are a wimpy passive scoundrel that sees government agents commit a crime and then does nothing to assist in prosecution but runs to an internet site to give a sensational account where you give yourself a 'heroic' presence all the while allowing those committing the illegal actions to get away without recourse.

Odd that in a place where everyone has one of those ubiquitous cell phones that no one bothered to capture your 'heroic' interaction with the TSA officer.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #178)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 08:15 AM

179. So hanging around public transit facilities while the TSA sweeps for *whatever* isn't trolling?

 

Last edited Sun Jul 1, 2012, 09:54 AM - Edit history (1)

In the second article the TSA states "The agency is not responsible for enforcement of immigration law, but two agents from immigration and customs enforcement were also at the bus station during the sweep." Is immigration in Iowa so bored they just latch on to any operation that gets them out of the office? Or were they there to take into custody any suspected illegal immigrants the TSA uncovered in their whatever? Is a greyhound station or public transit of some sort really the best place to look for the "no visible means of support, mcmansion and late model car" cases you describe?

Well, since you seem to be all-in... As far as I can tell these VIPR squads are just grunts for federal law enforcement doing the leg work they don't really want to with another departments budget.

And if you don't believe me, I don't really care. The episode was over in seconds and not quite the suspenseful stand-off you seem to be imagining, if they escalated the situation they would have looked ridiculous. It didn't even shock me at the time as I have witnessed all sorts of bullshit from the TSA including other instances of racially insensitive language at LAX which appeared to be directed at affluent female Mexicans. And on another occasion Asian passengers were being referred to as "retards" for failing to immediately comprehend poorly communicated instructions that included vernacular one might not be expected to have encountered in their TOEFL studies.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 09:43 PM

16. Two Words:

 

Fuck That!

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Response to demwing (Reply #16)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 09:49 PM

19. Or rather....

"go fuck yourself"

:::: Me, standing at a bus stop, approached by some TSA nimrod - :::::

"Can I see your drivers license please?"

"Go fuck yourself"

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Response to A HERETIC I AM (Reply #19)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 11:23 PM

30. Yep. I don't know right now what actual authority they have to fuck with me

 

But I'm more than willing to find out

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Response to A HERETIC I AM (Reply #19)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 06:49 PM

89. nimrod -- haha -- I haven't heard that word in years

It's perfect.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 09:47 PM

18. I remember being told I was paranoid for predicting that they would not stop with

airports if the people did not stand up then. Because there is so much money in this 'national security theater' game they have going. You didn't have to be paranoid, you just had to follow the money, which led right to Chertoff and his buddies.

.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #18)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 10:16 PM

26. I have found that most people who use the "thin edge of the wedge" argument are hooted down

... up and until the Gestapo comes for the hooters. Well, life is an exercise in denial -- some people are just better at it than others.

-- Mal

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #18)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 10:18 PM

27. they are slowly conditioning us to accept this as normal.

Soon you won't be able to leave your home without your papers....and we all will think it is normal.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #27)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 03:17 AM

36. You won't even be safe in your home, either. Not with what will evolve from this:

 

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 03:09 AM

35. We're always paranoid, hyperbolic conspiracy nuts right up until the moment we're

 

proven right. Then the same people suddenly "knew it all the along". You should have seen the abuse some of us took at Kos in the spring/summer of '08 over the dire predictions about shenanigans in the financial sector.

And people are right back listening to the Jim Kramers.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 01:42 PM

73. Same here

Added more info on TSA, VIPR, Bus Safe and increases in funding in post #62

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 02:48 PM

78. I can certainly relate

I also saw this shit coming.

By the way there's more to come, but I think you already suspect that too.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 09:51 PM

20. Do you live within 100 miles of the Canadian border, the Mexican border, or either coast?

See http://www.themoneyparty.org/main/2011/10/why-the-new-security-zone-along-the-canadian-border-2/ . Check out the second paragraph.

Seems within 100 miles of a border or coast you're subject to search even if there's no reason to believe you've done anything you shouldn't have.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 09:58 PM

21. not even cops can demand to see DL, unless you are a motor vehicle is involved.

the TSA is not law enforcement. They are safety enforcement. Think hall monitors from high school, they dont have any more power. Note that there are still County Deputy Sheriffs at the airports to do the actual Law enforcement.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #21)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 02:58 PM

80. Good point

They are supposedly not looking to arrest anyone for anything that wouldn't have to do with safety on the vehicle. So it would not be for the purpose of criminal investigation. For all OP knows, they had a warning of an attack on that bus. Not every government agent is trying to lose us our freedoms.

And of course had an attack occurred, who'd be to blame? The TSA for not checking enough.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #21)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 07:50 PM

92. They can keep you from getting on a bus or train or subway if you refuse to cooperate with them

The 'airport' security program has been expanded, flying mostly under the radar, for several years now. Just as predicted by the 'paranoid' Civil Liberties Orgs and mostly the 'left' who have been opposed to these policies since Bush first implemented them. Here is some confirmation that the 'security'

TSA screenings aren't just for airports anymore

The Transportation Security Administration isn't just in airports anymore. TSA teams are increasingly conducting searches and screenings at train stations, subways, ferry terminals and other mass transit locations around the country.

"We are not the Airport Security Administration," said Ray Dineen, the air marshal in charge of the TSA office in Charlotte. "We take that transportation part seriously."


They work in coordination with local authorities so if you refuse to cooperate with them they can call on the local police, as they do at airports, to deal with you.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 09:58 PM

22. Was this an armed uniformed officer?

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 10:00 PM

23. This thread needed a TON more details. n/t

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 10:01 PM

24. Weird and hard to believe!!! nt

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Response to greytdemocrat (Reply #24)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 01:03 PM

62. True and documented! Google TSA and VIPR. There have actually been many posts about this on DU also

Last edited Sat Jun 16, 2012, 01:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Here's some info on VIPR and on additional expansion of DHS, TSA and Border Patrol funding and roles:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/28/travel/tsa-vipr-passenger-train-searches/index.html
TSA rail, subway spot-checks raise privacy issues
By Thom Patterson, CNN
updated 10:05 AM EST, Sat January 28, 2012
TSA officials like to point out that the acronym stands for Transportation Security Administration, not the Airport Security Administration. And that's where VIPR comes in.
Born after 2004's Madrid railway bombings, VIPR suffered some embarrassing coordination struggles, transit officials say.
The program has 15 teams and is expanding to get access to 12 new teams to spot-check thousands of transportation depots across the nation.
VIPR teams conducted 3,895 operations in "surface modes" nationwide in 2010, according to the Department of Homeland Security (PDF).


Much more at above link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_Intermodal_Prevention_and_Response_team

Much info and many links at the wiki page. Includes info on budget increases:
Budget

FY2009: $30 million, 10 VIPR teams[32]
FY2010: increase of $50 million, for 15 surface transport VIPR teams [33]
FY2012: $109 million[34]
10 aviation teams
15 surface transport teams
12 new multi-modal team

They're asking for another increase for 2013:
http://www.dhs.gov/ynews/testimony/20120215-1a-s1-fy2013-budget.shtm
Fund 37 Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response (VIPR) teams, including 12 multi-modal Teams. VIPR teams are composed of personnel with expertise in inspection, behavior detection, security screening, and law enforcement for random, unpredictable deployments throughout the transportation sector to prevent potential terrorist and criminal acts.


EPIC has many resources noting the increase and privacy abuses. The paragraphs below include embedded links with more info on EPIC's site:

http://epic.org/privacy/airtravel/backscatter/
2013 Federal Budget Limits Body Scanners, But Expands Domestic Surveillance: According to White House budget documents and the Congressional Testimony of Secretary Napolitano, DHS will not purchase any new airport body scanners in 2013. However, the agency will expand a wide range of programs for monitoring and tracking individuals within the United States. This includes the development of biometric identification techniques for programs such as Secure Communities. DHS will also seek funding for "Einstein 3," a network intrusion detection program that enables surveillance of private networks. EPIC has urged the DHS to comply with the requirements of the federal Privacy Act, and is currently pursuing several Freedom of Information Act lawsuits against the agency. For more information see, EPIC - Body Scanners and Radiation Risks, EPIC - E-Verify, EPIC - Secure Communities, EPIC - Fusion Centers, EPIC - Drones, EPIC - Cybersecurity, EPIC - Secure Flight. (Feb. 20, 2012)
Documents Reveal New Details About DHS Development of Mobile Body Scanners: EPIC has obtained more than one hundred fifty pages of documents detailing the Department of Homeland Security’s development of mobile body scanners and other crowd surveillance technology. The documents were obtained as a result of a Freedom Information Act lawsuit brought by EPIC against the federal agency. According to the documents obtained by EPIC, vehicles equipped with mobile body scanners are designed to scan crowds and pedestrians on the street and can see through bags, clothing, and even other vehicles. The documents also reveal that the mobile backscatter machines cannot be American National Standards Institute “certified people scanners” because of the high level of radiation output and because subjects would not know they have been scanned. For more information see EPIC: Whole Body Imaging Technology and EPIC: EPIC v. DHS (Suspension of the Body Scanner Program). (Aug. 31, 2011)

Here's a post from me with links about TSA budget and Border Patrol budget increases and expansion that I posted to a thread about TSA bus-riding agents:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=628201

Additional links about TSA "Bus Safe" in Houston:

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/in_focus&id=8629966

METRO's counter-terror intitiave draws criticism

HOUSTON (KTRK) -- One week after METRO rolled out what it called an unprecedented approach to safety, there is criticism of just what happened. It was a big operation with what critics have called questionable results.

You paid for 81 cops to saturate Houston bus stops and routes last Friday. Most were from METRO, but some were from the federal Transportation Security Administration, as well as HPD.

~~~

METRO called it a synchronized, counter-terrorism exercise, and the first ever in Houston welcoming the federal TSA to Houston bus stops.





http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/in_focus&id=8637693

METRO faces public backlash over counter-terror intitiave


On April 13, the METRO Police Department invited TSA to be a part of its bus-safe exercise. METRO said then and repeated for days afterwards there would be random searches of bus and train passengers' bags.
~~~

A friend of Broze took pictures of the bus-safe exercise that he says show TSA agents and METRO police asking riders where they're going as they get off the bus and how often they ride that route.

"METRO and TSA were going onto the buses and questioning people about their normal routes and their normal behavior, and it just kind of creates an atmosphere of fear," Broze said.


There's much more if you search DU2.

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Response to suffragette (Reply #62)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 03:21 PM

148. Thanks for the facts



Born after 2004's Madrid railway bombings, VIPR suffered some embarrassing coordination struggles, transit officials say.
The program has 15 teams and is expanding to get access to 12 new teams to spot-check thousands of transportation depots across the nation.
VIPR teams conducted 3,895 operations in "surface modes" nationwide in 2010, according to the Department of Homeland Security (PDF).



So in a country of 300 million you are saying that they are averaging 10 stops a day to provide security for train and bus passengers after bombs had been used successfully in the UK and Spain on subway and trains?

Well I am going to have to disagree with "METRO rider Derrick Broze" that having the TSA do some occassional stops doesn't create an atmosphere of fear.

And for the record the link you had was about a METRO operation that invited TSA to be there. There is no evidence in your story that the TSA was actually there.



After an uproar, METRO says it never did any bag searches and never intended to, that the official METRO blog saying so was just a mistake.



So rather than this being something that supports the inference that the TSA is expanding into regular operations at bus stops it is a story about a METRO operation where METRO said that they invited TSA but no actual confirmation that TSA was present. In any case it was METRO officers that were doing the inspecting and they were misidentified ast TSA officers and it wasn't a TSA operation it was a METRO operation. Kind of undermines your whole this is proof of TSA expanding assertion.



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Response to grantcart (Reply #148)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 03:28 AM

175. The confirmation that TSA was present is on the METRO's own blog site

Last edited Tue Jun 19, 2012, 09:43 AM - Edit history (1)

That's the one where they first said there would be random bag checks, then said there were bag checks, then (after public push back) said that there weren't. What's consistent is that they said they invited TSA and that TSA was there.

http://blogs.ridemetro.org/blogs/write_on/archive/2012/04/16/Multi_2D00_Agency-Sting-Operation-on-Rail-_2600_-Bus-Successful.aspx
In an unprecedented approach that involved four law enforcement agencies - including federal agents - METRO launched a national BusSafe pilot program last Friday that saturated its system and resulted in quality arrests, making transit safer for passengers.

The METRO Police Department, Houston Police Department, Harris County Precinct 7 Deputy Constables and 15 agents - part of so-called viper teams - from the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) joined forces in a synchronized, counter-terrorism exercise that focused on bus stops and shelters and transit centers.



That is not inference, it is confirmation. METRO itself says TSA was present.

Also, in my post above, the reporters noted TSA was present and I even included a quote from the article in my post specifying that. To repeat:
You paid for 81 cops to saturate Houston bus stops and routes last Friday. Most were from METRO, but some were from the federal Transportation Security Administration, as well as HPD.



Further, in post 75 I provided information from the Whitehouse's website noting intercity buses are included now in TSA's jurisdiction. And in post 98, I added info about them being invited by Minnesota Valley Transit Authority to patrol and verification by MVTA that TSA has already been patrolling at park and rides there.


This is a clear expansion from TSA operating at airports.


And that's not the only expansion of security that is occurring. As I noted and posted in links above, TSA, DHS and the Border Patrol have been receiving steady budget increases (even as many other important social programs are cut) and have been expanding their roles well beyond their original missions. And with this expansion has come lack of definition and uncertainty about what roles are appropriate as well as lack of defined oversight such as local law enforcement is subject to. That has been a serious issue up here in regard to the Border Patrol as has been documented in investigative reporting done by the Seattle Weekly.

And I think it's well illustrated in this thread, which contains many posts stating that people don't even think TSA is doing this when even the official agencies operating with TSA report about TSA engaging in these actions.

As far as providing security, what security was provided by TSA searching people getting OFF the train in Savannah?
And even as they are expanding this program and others, what security is provided by this currently small number of teams, popping up at bus stops and on buses (whether city stops or park and ride stops)?

A Senior Policy analyst with the ACLU puts it well here:

http://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and-liberty/tsa-seeks-expand-airport-experience-everyday-life
Anyone who has traveled across America knows just how gigantic our nation is. In our country of over 300 million people, the 25 VIPR teams wander around, randomly searching and harassing citizens going about their private business, just in case they happen to intercept a terrorist attack. The government has never created bands of agents to roam around American society looking for those who are about to go on a shooting spree in their campus, office building, or local McDonald’s. The essential silliness of such an idea is self-apparent. But such shooting sprees – though they are basically freak occurrences – are far more common than terrorism.

In one example of the VIPR teams in action, agents screened people who had just gotten off a train in Savannah, Georgia. This incident was only publicized because this video was posted of TSA agents searching the passengers (including a 9-year-old), ordering them around, etc., just like in an airport. The TSA later issued a partial apology, acknowledging that the screening did not make sense – but only because no more trains were leaving the station. It did not admit the fundamentally misguided nature of the program itself.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 10:12 PM

25. I'd have laughed in his face, and called him a freakin' idiot!

 

I'd also tell him that I am not driving the bus, and do not have to show him my driver's license. He is not police, he's out of his jurisdiction!

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 10:35 PM

28. Maybe Mittens Robme got hold of a TSA uniform

and was pranking you.

Really, though - abuse of authority seems out of control these days.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 10:43 PM

29. I find this part troubling: I wasn't wearing a turbin, a head scarf or a Burka...?

If another passenger who was wearing a turbin, a head scarf or a Burka would have received the same treatment would you have found that acceptable?

Don

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #29)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 11:32 PM

33. My interpretation of that was

"And I am not of the type that is usually profiled." Not that it is acceptable to profile, but rather that the OP was amazed to discover TSA turning up the heat.

But you're right, it's a dangerous subtext.

-- Mal

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #29)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 09:52 PM

95. Thank you.

I was scanning the thread to see if someone had raised that point - which I found troubling, as well.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 11:27 PM

31. But if you're not doing anything wrong, why do you object to this?



On a bus? Really?

Mall cops all of them - haven't caught a terrorist yet and won't, except by accident.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #31)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 11:34 PM

34. Most of the time, I AM guilty

 

of some form of thought crime

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 11:30 PM

32. We should all get cards printed

 

With part of the 4th Amendment on one side:

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated."

And a hand, flipping the bird on the other:

____________________________________

PAPERS?



HERE'S MY PAPERS!
____________________________________

Ready made responses to goon squads...

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Response to demwing (Reply #32)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 04:08 AM

38. ....

 

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Response to demwing (Reply #32)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 04:44 PM

83. LOL I want some!

I would ask them to wait a second, get my camera ready on my phone,
and take his picture when he looks up from the card.

Absolute gold! lol

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Response to demwing (Reply #32)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 11:47 AM

126. Love it!

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Response to demwing (Reply #32)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 01:53 PM

132. I like that idea! Not that they know what the 4th Amendment is anymore, as we've seen from their

behavior at airports.

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Response to demwing (Reply #32)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 02:49 PM

140. Oh hell Yes!. n/t

 

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 03:39 AM

37. Where did this incident occur? How do you know the person asking

 

for your DL was actually TSA? Did you see his government-issued ID?

Details, please.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #37)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 02:25 PM

135. His/her profile indicates Minnesota

 

probably "The Cities", as buses are few and far between elsewhere.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 04:17 AM

39. He was probably just trying to make sure you didn't have some WEED in your luggage.

Gotta stop those "terrorists", ya know.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 07:25 AM

41. Maybe it was Mitt ...

just having some fun at your expense.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 07:40 AM

42. Maybe it's time we carry around wallet-size copies of the Bill of Rights for times like this.

 

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Response to rug (Reply #42)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 03:00 PM

143. I keep a pocket-sized edition of the Constitution at my desk at work...

 

in my car, at home and in my backpack that I carry everywhere.

I don't understand why more people don't.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #143)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 03:24 PM

150. I carry one in my purse.

in its own separate pocket.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 07:51 AM

43. A poster who doesn't respond to questions in his own post?

 

Makes me wonder if this story is accurate or not.

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Response to randome (Reply #43)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 09:07 AM

44. Geez, Not everyone lives on the Internet

 

you know?

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Response to demwing (Reply #44)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 09:15 AM

45. Sure.

 

But if you're going to take the time to start a conversation, you should at least have the courtesy to stick around for a while.

I don't believe everything I read. Not even if it's on DU.

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Response to randome (Reply #45)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 10:08 AM

46. You got that right

Especially the part about "I don't believe everything I read. Not even if it's on DU."

That makes two of us.



This reminds me just a little too much of the story about the toenail clippers being taken away from a soldier story a couple of years ago that some wingnuts were posting here.

Don

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #46)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:06 AM

48. So maybe its not true. So what?

 

It's a post on an internet forum, not an MSNBC Special Report. It doesn't slam Obama or any Dems, it doesn't recommend any third party or third way, and it doesn't violate DU policy. If its false, and a few believe it, what's the big deal?

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Response to demwing (Reply #48)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:12 AM

49. Why are you so defensive about this?

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #49)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:37 AM

56. Because it irks me to see someone get called a liar

 

not because there are questionable facts in the post, not because there unsupported conclusions, and not because there is a clear bias or agenda that flies in the face of honesty.

The reason the OP got challenged is because the post hit on Friday night, and by Saturday afternoon the OP had not responded to any questions. Wow...someone might have something more interesting to do on a Friday and Saturday before Father's day, and didn't spend it hanging out on DU, imagine that.

Maybe I'm making too much of this, but I find it extremely frustrating, We're developing extremely short attention spans, and quick trigger fingers. That's a poor combination.

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #46)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 03:07 PM

145. Been done to me, getting on a USAF flight to deploy. n/t

 

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #145)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 06:40 PM

165. Sure it did

http://m.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-01-09/story/fact-check-clippers-were-not-confiscated-tsa

Times-Union readers want to know:

An e-mail from a soldier just back from Afghanistan gives an account of his group's experience with the Transportation Security Administration in the Indianapolis airport. A TSA officer thought it important to confiscate nail clippers from one of the soldiers even though they all were carrying weapons! Could this be true?

FactCheck.org talked to numerous officials and wound up calling the e-mail "an impossible fabrication." Is it possible that it still could have happened? Not likely.

The e-mail quotes a "Chalk Leader" for soldiers flying home from Afghanistan. He says the group and its baggage was searched thoroughly in Baghdad. The nail clippers incident happened when the plane stopped in Indianapolis to drop off about 100 Indiana National Guard members. Everyone had to get off the plane and the group was escorted to a secure holding area used for the military, the account goes. All soldiers were carrying unloaded weapons - rifles, pistols or machine guns.

After sitting in the holding area for two hours, the e-mail says, it was decided to inspect the soldiers yet again. After one of the soldiers emptied his pockets, the TSA agent picked up nail clippers and said he couldn't carry that on board because it could be used as a weapon.

FactCheck.org, a nonpartisan fact-finding project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania, traced the story to Erick Erickson, editor of the conservative blog RedState and a CNN political contributor. The item, posted Nov. 18 on RedState, tells of the airport incident as reported by an anonymous soldier friend of his. FactCheck.org asked Erickson for the soldier's name, but he would not provide it.

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #165)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 08:22 PM

166. Also had small screwdriver set (for glasses, etc.) confiscated.

 

Believe what you want, I lived it.

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Response to randome (Reply #45)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:03 AM

47. Jesus Christ, no one is asking you to believe everything you read

 

but do you have to question someone's character just because they didn't respond according to YOUR schedule?

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Response to demwing (Reply #47)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:14 AM

50. Couldn't care less about the OP's character.

 

I referred to whether or not the post is accurate. People post things that aren't true all the time. Is this one of them? Just pointing out that it's possible.

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Response to randome (Reply #50)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:30 AM

55. The post is a an account of the OPs personal experience

 

if you say its false, you're saying the OP lied.

Maybe you're right, maybe you're not, but to base that assumption on whether or not the poster responded in a timely fashion is unfair, and a strike against someone's character.

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Response to demwing (Reply #55)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:41 AM

57. I did not say it was false.

 

I said the OP has not supplied any of the details that other posters have requested, which makes one question whether or not the post is accurate.

Objectivity is my best friend.

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Response to randome (Reply #57)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 01:19 PM

66. Questioning an OP's honesty

 

just because there has not been a response within an imposed time frame that you determined as sufficient is not objectivity, it's subjectivity.

And you're right...you didn't come right out and call bullshit. You just implied it, and now you're backing away from that accusation.

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Response to demwing (Reply #66)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 01:25 PM

68. I don't 'back away' from anything unless I think I'm wrong.

 

And I don't care about being right OR wrong. You even raised the possibility that the OP wasn't true so why do you care so much about people accepting it as such?

Doesn't make sense to me.

Regardless, you're welcome to have the last word on our exchange if you want. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just pointing out what others have, that this post is lacking in details and the poster does not seem interested in supplying them.

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Response to randome (Reply #68)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 02:00 PM

133. The OP raised a questions, has the TSA expanded its 'program' from airports to

mass transportation, and lots of DUers have provided information that answers that questions. Yes, they have, to bus terminals, train stations, ferries, subways and more and planning on further expansions. So the likelihood is that the OP is one of the tens of thousands of US Citizens who encountered the TSA going about their normal, daily routines.

We get lots of OPs that recount personal experiences on DU. Dozens eg, about conversations with co-workers who are Right Wingers among other kinds of personal encounters. There is rarely any reason to assume the OPs are lying.

However, I don't blame you for being doubtful, as this sure doesn't sound like something you would find in a Democracy. But it's true, sorry!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #133)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 02:28 PM

137. We get lots of OPs from DUers who DO NOT start a thread and then run from it.

 

Just because I read something on the Internet does not mean I am going to automatically accept it as true.

And all any of us have to say to someone who asks to see an ID is "No, thanks." And be done with it. Unless it's from a uniformed police officer, of course.

Unless you're afraid that some consequences will come your way.

I refuse to be afraid.

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Response to randome (Reply #137)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 04:25 PM

160. Good ~

'I refuse to be afraid'.

What do you think then of the TSA's expanded program to US soil?


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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #160)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 04:47 PM

163. Whose soil should they inspect if not that of the U.S.?

 

An occasional request to see an ID does not bother me. If it became routine for everyone -or for even a majority of people- then, yes, I would say it would have similarities to fascism. But I have not seen the evidence that this is even close to what is happening.

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Response to randome (Reply #43)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:41 AM

58. Just saw you in another thread claiming something didn't seem right

 

...about the story. You seem to like to question the accuracy of stories that don't fit your preconceived notion of The Way Things Ought To Be (as judged by Randome). Funny.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #58)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:43 AM

59. Yes, that's all I do, day in, day out, ask questions.

 

You're referring, of course, to the post about a woman having her garden forcibly dispersed by local authorities. I wasn't the only one suggesting that 'something is missing from the story'.

Objectivity. It's what's for breakfast.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #58)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 02:59 PM

81. A bit more logical than believing something just because someone else asserted it

just because it fits in with a preconceived notion of How Horrible Things Are and how It's the End of the World and The Fascists are taking over."

Look at all the posters in the thread who believe it unconditionally, merely because someone on the internet claimed it.

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Response to treestar (Reply #81)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 02:27 PM

136. It doesn't fit with a pre-conceived notion. It fits with the facts, which have been posted over and

over again in this thread. The TSA, as predicted when Bush was trying to push his Airport Security policies and the 'left' fought him so hard it actually slowed down those draconian intrusions on our civil rights, the TSA has now expanded its 'programs'. Something we on the Left were told would never happen, that we were just paranoid, that we just 'hated Bush' etc. etc.

So now it's happening.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #136)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 02:51 PM

141. That's my point, you believe the OP without question

We have no idea whether the OP was really stopped and asked for his/her DL at a bus stop by a TSA agent. It might never have happened, happened but was not a TSA agent, the OP might have been doing something OP is not telling us about.


Wikipedia:

A Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response team, sometimes Visible Intermodal Protection and Response (VIPR, or VIPER) is a Transportation Security Administration program. Various government sources have differing descriptions of VIPR's exact mission. It is specifically authorized by 6 U.S.C. § 1112 which says that the program is to "augment the security of any mode of transportation at any location within the United States". Authority for the program is under the Secretary of Homeland Security. The program falls under TSA's Office of Law Enforcement.[1] TSA OLE shares responsibility for the program with the Office of Security Operations and TSNM[expand acronym].[2]
The VIPR teams detain and search travelers at railroad stations, bus stations, ferries, car tunnels, ports, subways, truck weigh stations, rest areas, and special events.[3][4][5][6][7] They also can deploy to deal with CBRNE/WMD (chemical, biological, radioactive, nuclear, and explosive weapons of mass destruction).[8] They also inspect ships, containers, and vehicles.[9]
Contents [hide]


Thus it is allowed by statute, which our Congress voted and our President signed (whether we liked that President or not). It's the law until challenged, and nothing stops someone from challenging it.

It says bus stations, not stops, so OP has a great case to use to make this point.

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Response to treestar (Reply #141)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 02:54 PM

142. Come on, treestar.

 

Facts and research? What's your REAL agenda?

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Response to randome (Reply #142)

Mon Jun 18, 2012, 12:49 AM

173. So what do you think of the TSA's now expanded program, despite having been told it would never

happen, to the daily lives of Americans? How many terrorists has the TSA stopped over the past ten years? How does this program make Americans safer? I assume you, like me, have been researching the TSA for a number of years, considering your comment above!

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Response to treestar (Reply #141)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 04:34 PM

161. It doesn't matter whether I believe the OP or not. Are you saying the TSA has NOT expanded its

programs, now out of airports and into our personal lives on the ground? And do you support these tactics?

This was predicted back when the Dems were fighting the new Airport Security and we were told it would never happen. Why were we told that do you think? I remember being called 'paranoid' for predicting that soon we would have the TSA at bus stations and trains stations, ferries, subways and setting up roadblocks to search cars etc.

How far should they go? Into Malls, they have btw, wedding parties, football games, how far, how many rights do we need to give up before we feel totally 'safe'? What is your limit, and how safe is all this making us? More people die in car accidents and are murdered by other Americans every day than any terrorist could dream of. How do we keep all of them from dying?

Did you know the threat of dying by terror is one of the least threats we face each day. Why isn't money being spent to prevent all those other deaths which are happening even as I type this. How safe can be in this world? Should we seal ourselves off in some kind bubble? What is the limit?

Bush was 'our president' and he signed lots of laws. Did you think he was right?

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:15 AM

51. Until people stand up for their rights they will continue to abuse you

 

People need to stop living their lives in fear.

Know your rights and fight back!

or don't and live like a sheep heading to slaughter.

Your choice.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:15 AM

52. Detroit is an open-air prison.

Few living there these days can get out.

It's sad to see the concept has spread to Amerika.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:18 AM

53. True or not, I did see a news clip about TSA performing security checks on buses.

They seemed to only be doing it for a limited period of time, but with a name like Transportation Security Agency, it would not be entirely unrealistic for them to expand their territory.

They weren't called Airline/Airport Security Agency for a reason.

Also, the TSA are not law enforcement, but technically they can call in law enforcement to arrest someone -- and they'll almost always oblige.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:21 AM

54. There must be something wrong about the way you look

 

Please describe yourself.






















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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:58 AM

60. We MUST find ways to resist this.

I object mainly to the invasion of privacy; but it's also a ridiculous waste of taxpayer money. If we took all the unnecessary spending out of programs like TSA and spent it regulating and investigating bankers, the payoff would be spectacular both short- and long-term.

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Response to snot (Reply #60)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 01:21 PM

67. Saying 'No, thanks' is one way.

 

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 12:01 PM

61. Not buying it.

 

Nope, I don't buy it. I've never seen TSA outside of an airport.

I've gotta have more evidence than somebody making a claim on the internet and using racist bigotted crap in that claim ("I wasn't wearing a turbin, a head scarf or a Burka...? ".

Nope, I don't buy a single word of it.

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Response to GarroHorus (Reply #61)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 01:46 PM

129. Don't worry about it, 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about'

Is it true? Can't say I blame you for asking, it does seem hard to believe because we were told this would never happen, it was just going to be airports.

TSA screenings aren't just for airports anymore

In Tennessee in October, a viper team used radiation monitors and explosive-trace detectors to help state police inspect trucks at highway weigh stations throughout the state. Last month in Orlando, Fla., a team set up metal detectors at a Greyhound bus station and tested passengers' bags for explosive residue.

In the Carolinas this year, TSA teams have checked people at the gangplanks of cruise ships, the entrance to NASCAR races, and at ferry terminals taking tourists to the Outer Banks.

At the Charlotte train station on Dec. 11, Seiko, the bomb-sniffing dog, snuffled down a line of about 100 passengers waiting to board an eastbound train. Many were heading home after watching the Charlotte Panthers NFL team lose to the Atlanta Falcons after holding a 16-point lead.


For now you can avoid them by driving, but how long before the TSA sets up roadblocks? I know, that's paranoid thinking.

But so were the predictions that they would be at bus stations, at train stations etc.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #129)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 01:48 PM

130. No, it's hard to believe because the OP has not deigned to provide us with requested details.

 

Maybe the TSA nabbed him in the middle of his post?

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Response to randome (Reply #130)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 04:13 PM

157. What do you think of the TSA having these expanded power?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #129)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 02:40 PM

138. You cited nothing to corroborate the OP

 

So again, not buying it.

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Response to GarroHorus (Reply #138)

Mon Jun 18, 2012, 12:27 AM

171. It doen't matter what you buy or don't buy. The fact is the TSA has now expanded what was already

a controversial program, violating Constitutional rights, from the airports into the personal loves of American citizens wherever they travel. There is simply no denying it, unless it's so shocking to you, and I can understand that, that you prefer to pretend it's not happening, it's a nightmare. It is, so not to worry, you're not alone, most free-thinking, patriotic Americans agree with you.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #171)

Mon Jun 18, 2012, 09:35 AM

174. so show me a REAL instance of TSA checking IDs on a city bus

 

<crickets>

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #129)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 04:54 PM

164. Whether it's TSA or private security guards...

 

...inspections happen all the time. Weigh station inspections. Cruise ship inspections. Train inspections.

It doesn't sound like anyone was inconvenienced by any of the examples you cited.

The drug-sniffing dog on the train? Hell, maybe they had a report that someone was smuggling drugs. I don't know. Until it becomes a major inconvenience to a great many people, most people don't really care that law enforcement -or whatever version of it exists in this unnecessarily complicated bureaucracy- is doing their job.

Do I think a lot of it is unnecessary? Yeah. Anything more than a minor inconvenience? Nope.

So far, anyways. Vigilance is always necessary but right now I'm not all that concerned.

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Response to randome (Reply #164)

Mon Jun 18, 2012, 12:33 AM

172. Really? We must live in two different countries because I have never, ever been accosted by

government agents when I got on a bus, a train or a subway nor do I want to be. We live in a democracy, I would like to keep it that way.

Looks like you've chosen not to read all the links that explain WHY the sniffing dog was on the train. If you had, you would not have to keep guessing why he was there.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 01:07 PM

63. A bus stop?

It would at least have to serve interstate travel for the TSA to be involved.

What difference would it make whether you were wearing a turban? Are you suggesting that because you were not, you should not be considered for a search?

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Response to treestar (Reply #63)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 01:40 PM

72. It does not have to be interstate travel for TSA to be involved. See post #62

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Response to suffragette (Reply #72)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 02:34 PM

76. all of which involves interstate commerce

The VIPR teams detain and search travelers at railroad stations, bus stations, ferries, car tunnels, ports, subways, truck weigh stations, rest areas, and special events.[3][4][5][6][7] They also can deploy to deal with CBRNE/WMD (chemical, biological, radioactive, nuclear, and explosive weapons of mass destruction).[8] They also inspect ships, containers, and vehicles.[9]


A bus stop would not. If the story were in a bus station it might be credible.

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Response to treestar (Reply #76)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 02:44 PM

77. Houston buses aren't interstate. also see post # 75 with the Whitehouse including intercity buses

specifically.

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Response to suffragette (Reply #77)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 03:03 PM

82. It's allowed under the statute you cited in post 62

Someone would have to challenge that statute.

OP has never said where this happened.

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Response to treestar (Reply #82)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 01:03 AM

100. It looks like it's happening in more places, which isn't surprising given the expansion of funding

they've received and given their role being expanded. With that, I think we'll be hearing more local reports from DUers.

Found another link and posted it below about them patrolling some Minnesota transit centers (bus park and rides). Even that PDF notes they will soon be at more than the two in that area the Minnesota Valley Transit Authority ( MVTA ) has said TSA has already been patrolling.

You're correct - the links I've found show that TSA is now assigned/allowed this role and is conducting these patrols. I appreciate that you read the the posts and replied directly about their content. Happens all too rarely on DU these days and I respect that.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 01:15 PM

64. A Maine columnist wrote about this -- his daughter was ID'd on a bus

It happened a few years ago. She was traveling from Boston to Portland, ME and TSA boarded and asked for everyone's ID. She refused (being the daughter of a liberal columnist) and said he had no right to ask her for ID. The agent told her "You'd better mind your mouth, young lady."

Her dad, the columnist, was very proud of her.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 01:16 PM

65. was he on the bus? at the bus stop?

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 01:25 PM

69. The predictable response to new corporate, neocon, or police state outrages:

First, deny it is is happening.

When it becomes impossible to deny, then minimize and rationalize it.

Then support it. After all, the terrorists are trying to get us.


Occupy, because we are in for another four years of escalation of the police state *even with the better candidate in this race.*

Don't accept this. Occupy.



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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 01:36 PM

70. i'll not think this is any more than a bullshit post until there's FOLLOW UP!

60+ replies and not a single answer to questions posed by readers.

this may be entirely true- who's to say....

but until there's further explanation it's got all the heft of hearsay and little more.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 01:39 PM

71. Cool Story.

Apparently, TSA was doing something having to do with buses in Houston recently. It's all over the conspiracy theory sites, like abovetopsecret, etc.

They're talking about it on the right wing sites, too.

How about some more information on this? Where? When? You know, something to provide a little more credibility. As it is, I'm not convinced.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #71)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 02:19 PM

75. It's also on their ABC local news. Additionally the Whitehouse has included intercity buses

specifically.


My post #62 has links about TSA VIPR and Bus Safe.

From the Whitehouse, defining the role of TSA in regard to surface transportation. Some salient points from the PDF. I added the bold:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/STSA.pdf
page 8
Sector-Specific Agency
(SSA)
 The Transportation Security Administration is the SSA for the security
of the land and air modes of the Transportation Systems Sector.


page 9, includes intercity buses specifically


Surface Transportation Modes
Mass transit, commuter and long-distance
passenger rail, freight rail, commercial
vehicles (including intercity buses), and
pipelines, and related infrastructure
(including roads and highways), that are
within the territory of the United States.
Executive Order 13416

The strategy guiding surface transportation security should focus on the following:
 Using intelligence to identify potential threats
 Employing programs and procedures that allow for better identification and interdiction
of threats prior to their arrival in the United States
 Engaging system operators in intelligence sharing, security planning, and operations
 Ensuring that key transportation workers are vetted
 Increasing frontline worker and public security awareness
 Creating a more stringent, less opportunistic environment for terrorist attack planning
(e.g., non-intrusive inspection devices, canine teams, random bag checks, VIPRs, and
counter-surveillance)
 Changing operations to reduce vulnerabilities and potential consequences and to thwart
attempts to circumvent security measures
 Hardening critical infrastructure (e.g., intrusion detection, facility hardening, smart
surveillance, and common operating picture development)

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #71)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 05:32 PM

85. The WH is a CS theory site?

There is lots of information in this thread and no it is not 'cool' that Bush's policies, fought so hard by Democrats, as you surely must remember, from the moment he began implementing them with Homeland Security, Patriot Act, TSA Rapiscans. Turns out we Democrats were correct, as each new step that was predicted by Civil Liberties, as early as 2002.

Surely you remember when we on the left attempted to point out the dangers of these policies, that one day they would be expanded to just what is described in this OP (not the first report of this btw) we were told by Bush Supporters, that we were, just as you implied here, conspiracy theorists and the favorite response to Democrats from the Right was 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear'.

Hard to believe anyone would forget that opposing these policies is, and always was a Democratic issue.

If the 'right' is now concerned, all I can say is 'we told you so morons'. And I would be happy to go visit them to remind them of how THEY were in support of all of this throughout the Bush years.

It would be strange to see anyone on the Left who was around when these policies first began supporting them now, in any way. Thankfully I haven't noticed that to any great extent as the Civil Liberties Union and other Civil Rights organizations continue to fight these abuses of civil liberties.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #85)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 07:41 PM

91. Without any details beyond the solitary post,

I will remain skeptical.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #91)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 09:02 AM

108. Mantra Time

 

I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.

Repeat till passive...

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Response to demwing (Reply #108)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 09:16 AM

110. You said that already.

It's not as clever the second time in the same thread. Go with "sheeple" maybe, or perhaps a "V for Vendetta" reference. Or the boiling frog, that's always good for a witness from the chorus.

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Response to Robb (Reply #110)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 11:11 AM

115. Generally, repeating a message twice isn't sufficient

 

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Response to demwing (Reply #108)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 10:54 AM

113. Or just roll over and claim to be victims of a police state

And let it happen that way. OP could have objected and if arrested for anything, taken that case to court and fought the statute allowing the detention as unconstitutional. That can't be done in a police state. Exaggeration helps no one. It hurts this cause. You're advocating people just going along as victims until there is a police state for real. When here, we have the means to head that off far easier than other countries which developed into police states had.

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Response to treestar (Reply #113)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 11:14 AM

116. There is no on/off switch to a police state

 

the best defense is awareness and resistance before the shit hits.

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Response to demwing (Reply #116)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 11:26 AM

119. Well then admit it is well before the shit hits

and we have plenty of avenues to head it off. The TSA exercises powers given it by statute, which even so are reviewable by the courts.

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Response to treestar (Reply #119)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 11:30 AM

121. not "well before" but yeah, you're right

 

it's not too late to change the trend.

but come on...you have to admit the trend has already begun?

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Response to demwing (Reply #121)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 11:35 AM

122. It began after 911

When people were willing to give up their freedom for safety and the Republicans and Bush took full advantage of that fear.

Luckily the courts held unconstitutional some of their actions (the Padilla and Hamdi cases, for example) showing the system was still functioning and Chimpy did not get away with his unitary executive crap.

and we've quit hearing about how our freedoms are useless if we are dead and the rest of the right wing crap. So we survived the 911 crisis as a functioning government under the Constitution.

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Response to treestar (Reply #122)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 11:43 AM

125. But Citizen's United was a step back

 

anything that moves us toward privatized government enables the police state.

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Response to demwing (Reply #125)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 11:51 AM

128. Those are two different things.

 

I agree we need to be vigilant and we need concrete changes but we still, for the most part, live by laws.

Are there areas where the law breaks down and needs reform? Hell, yes.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #71)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 09:49 PM

94. I saw it happening near the Greyhound bus station in Houston on Friday night.

The cops were checking bags and ID's.

I was watching from the street, yeah it happens.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #71)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 12:41 AM

98. TSA patrols Burnside and Apple Valley transit (bus park & rides) in Minnesota in 2012 - source MVTA

That's the Minnesota Valley Transit Authority

http://www.mvta.com/

Counterterrorism Patrol to Take Place at Regional Transit Facilities
Monday, January 30, 2012 12:15 PM
The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) working within the Department of Homeland Security, will be conducting counterterrorism patrols at area transit facilities in the coming year. These patrols are NOT related to any specific incident or threat. The patrols may include agents talking to passengers, patrolling parking facilities and stepping on buses.
Agents anticipate conducting these patrols at MVTA transit facilities as well as other regional transit facilities.


Their Summer 2012 PDF notes teams have already been at these locations. See page 4:

From MVTA website: http://www.mvta.com/summer_2012_newsletter.html
Direct link: http://www.mvta.com/uploads/summer_3.pdf

Periodic Counterterrorism Patrols Under Way at Transit Facilities
The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) working within the Department of Homeland Security, is conducting peri-odic counterterrorism patrols at area transit facilities in the coming year. MVTA’s Burnsville and Apple Valley Transit Stations have had teams on site during the morning or afternoon peak periods. Other regional transit facilities will also have the patrols.These patrols are NOT related to any specific incident or threat. The patrols may include agents talking to passengers, patrolling parking facilities and stepping on buses.


This is a transit authority in your own state specifying that TSA is patrolling bus transit centers.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 05:33 PM

86. I love riddles!

Was the bus stop inside an airport?

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Response to Robb (Reply #86)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 07:11 PM

90. Doesn't need to be inside an airport. They've been doing this since 2010 at least:

TSA rail, subway spot-checks raise privacy issues


This isn't security, Christopher Calabrese of the American Civil Liberties Union says. It's "security theater."

Such searches offer no protection to society at the cost of passengers' civil liberties and convenience, he says. "We're very troubled by the VIPR program."

A high-profile example of VIPR's growing pains, transit officials say, is a VIPR-assisted passenger screening a year ago at Amtrak's station in Savannah, Georgia.


TSA screenings aren't just for airports anymore

The Transportation Security Administration isn't just in airports anymore. TSA teams are increasingly conducting searches and screenings at train stations, subways, ferry terminals and other mass transit locations around the country.

"We are not the Airport Security Administration," said Ray Dineen, the air marshal in charge of the TSA office in Charlotte. "We take that transportation part seriously."


But when Civil Liberties organizations warned that there would be 'mission creep' from the initial 'airport security' violations of civil rights, we were told that would never happen.

It didn't take all that long. Another multi million dollar program. The OP isn't reporting anything others have not reported before.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #90)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 10:20 PM

96. ...

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Response to Robb (Reply #96)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 12:45 AM

99. Aw, thanks for the reminder of the days when US Citizens

could travel freely by air, by bus, by subway, by train. But that was before '9/11 changed everything'.

Even Sesame Street's beloved cast of characters, are no longer safe from the TSA's expanded 'security' programs.

A nice symbol of those not-so-long-ago days. I will use it to too if you don't mind.




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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #99)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 08:26 AM

101. Good. Great idea. Even better than comic books.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #90)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 10:57 AM

114. So who has been unlawfully detained or arrested because of it?

They are looking for potential dangers. If there was a bomb going off on a bus, who would you blame? Probably the President for not heading off this terrorist attack.

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Response to treestar (Reply #114)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 02:20 PM

134. The questions should be 'how many terrorists has the TSA stopped so far?'

Considering how much of our 'freedoms' we are giving up, I would expect that after years of doing so, and billions of dollars, and now they want more, surely they should have had something to show for it, other than strip searching 84 year-old-women.

What do people fear most when the got up each day? From polls taken it appears they fear losing their jobs, not having Health Care and getting sick with no way to get treatment. 44,000 people die each year as a result of that reality. How many die of terror?

Logically we in far more danger of death from our own policies. We have over half a million Americans dead since 9/11 from lack of Health Care. None from terror. So why are we spending all this money on something that is one of the least threats to American lives?

If Bush et al, and now apparently even democrats, are correct, they 'hate us for our freedoms' so why are we giving them what they want? Fear to the point of giving up so many of our rights? The Home of the Brave has been terrified into giving up their rights! Meantime people are dying here, and those are lives we actually could save.

And why do I have to make this argument to democrats? I thought we were the ones who would, once we got the power, would be turning back all these Bush policies. What happened and why are people now arguing FOR what they argued against when Bush was president? What changed, are there more terrorists? How could that be since we've spent trillions killing them every day, we are told?

Aside from anything else, nearly 11 years of war and the surrender of more and more rights, we are told the WOT is nowhere near succeeding. When does it stop? How many more rights, how many more do we have to kill before we feel safe?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #134)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 02:47 PM

139. Well, it would take just one more big terror attack to get people obsessed about it again

I remember the era in late 2001 and 2002 when everything was about security and people were willing to put up with all of this and more and claiming our freedoms were no good to us dead. That was scary. So the last thing I'd like to see is another attack. It would bring that mentality back to the forefront again.

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Response to treestar (Reply #139)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 04:21 PM

159. I remember that too and we knew that Bush was just using 9/11 to implement all these policies while

Democrats, like Leahy eg, were trying to roll them back.

Just because 'leaders' take advantage of a tragedy doesn't mean we have to be fooled by what they are doing and we were not. The Right was fooled, which is why we ended up in Iraq.

Democrats were right, this is all just security theater for the purpose of making money. It's been a bonanza for the MIC and its associated agencies.

But how many terrorists has any of this stopped here? And there will be more terrorist attacks, there always have been since the beginning of time. Other countries manage to handle their terror problems without spending trillions of dollars, taking away their rights, starting wars all over the world, and planning to never resolve the problem as this WOT appears to be destined to go on forever. That in itself says all these tactics are not working.

Maybe if we stopped killing and torturing people in other countries and taking control of their resources, we wouldn't have to worry about terror. They're not attacking Iceland are they?

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 07:56 PM

93. Wait! Was this a Greyhound Bus stop or a CITY/ TOWN bus stop?

 

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 08:31 AM

102. I refuse to believe it,

Last edited Sun Jun 17, 2012, 09:15 AM - Edit history (1)

and I will continue to scoff, even though the policy and similar incidents have been in the papers and confirmed by the administration itself, until it is so blatantly obvious and apparent all around me that it is impossible to deny it anymore.

At that time, I will justify whatever they are doing and mock those who act like it's a big deal or a significant change from the past.

But until then, it sounds fishy to me.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #102)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 08:48 AM

104. +1

 

thousand

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #102)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 08:54 AM

105. By Jove, I think (s)he's got it.











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Response to woo me with science (Reply #102)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 08:59 AM

107. Just repeat the Litany Against Oppression

 

I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.
I live in the U.S. and have all my life. It's not a police state.


This will protect you from the oppression of distressing thoughts...

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Response to demwing (Reply #107)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 11:17 AM

117. And while you're at it, repeat the GOP litany:

"Arbeit macht frei!"

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #117)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 11:28 AM

120. Or it's recent variation

 

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Response to demwing (Reply #107)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 01:51 PM

131. Excellent! And if you do it long and faithfully enough,

you can keep it up even with a TSA agent's hand in your pants!

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Response to demwing (Reply #107)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 03:51 PM

155. The second verse goes like this :-

This will only affect the people who're up to no good - not people like me.

"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear."

They would only do this for our protection - no other reason. Not to scare us.

If it scares me, think of how it must scare off a terrorist. Fear is a tight seat belt: it makes me safe and secure.

So maybe it is true some people have been arrested who were later proved innocent - but probably they talked back to the police and so they got run in for acting like troublemakers. If you don't want to fit an orange jumpsuit, don't fit "the profile."

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #102)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 11:41 AM

124. Nailed!

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 11:50 AM

127. TSA Bus Stop checks -

Houston -
METRO's counter-terrorism initiative draws criticism, April 12, 2012 -
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/in_focus&id=8629966
From the article -

"When you say to a poor, working-class person, either we search your bag or you can't ride the bus, it says you can't go to work without our permission," Bennett said.

But that's not the only concern. Of the 14 arrests METRO made, 12 were of African American suspects; and while METRO denies profiling, it is a large percentage.

.......

Rodriguez says he will conduct these bus safe operations again, maybe as soon as a few weeks from now. He says he has no plans to search your bag without a warrant unless threats change here in Houston.


Mother Jones article (from 2011)
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2011/06/tsa-swarms-8000-bus-stations-public-transit-systems-yearly

Having had to ride the trolley in San Diego on occasion over the years (both my home and my work location are near trolley stops and on rainy days, riding the scooter to work is not safe), I have recently seen TSA agents following transit police when they do the ticket check walk-through. A couple months ago, I noticed TSA stop and talk to a "brown man" while the transit cop waited for them to catch up at the back of the car where I was sitting. They didn't arrest him, but they obviously "had their eye" on him for some reason.
Just a personal anecdote, I know, and there's nothing to back it up because transit cop checks are normal on the trolley. But here in San Diego, TSA has been roaming the trolley for a while - probably because the last trolley stop is about 200 feet from the San Ysidro/Tijuana border crossing.

Haele


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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 03:06 PM

144. Where?

Others asked you this also. I know you were going home, but where were you getting on the bus to go home?

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 03:11 PM

147. And yet so many people (of all political bents)...

 

constantly claim that the Second Amendment is obsolete...

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 03:36 PM

152. Wonder what would have happened if you said

"I'm didn't plan on driving the bus, just riding it. So I didn't bring it with me."

"They said I had to bring a token or 2 dollars - not a sperm sample. But if you'd like one..."

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Sun Jun 17, 2012, 08:24 PM

167. Papers, please! nt

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 04:06 AM

176. What would have happened if you told him to fuck off?

I don't think TSA has the power to arrest you.

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Response to lib2DaBone (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 07:50 AM

177. Related thread - If you see something, Film something

 

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