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Mon Jul 25, 2016, 08:24 AM

 

This is not how I remember the micheal brown shooting. From wiki

[Shortly before the shooting, Brown stole several packages of cigarillos from a nearby convenience store and shoved the store clerk who tried to stop him, according to the U.S. Department of Justice examination. Brown was accompanied by his friend Dorian Johnson.[2] Wilson had been notified by police dispatch of the robbery and descriptions of the two suspects. He encountered Brown and Johnson as they were walking down the middle of the street. Wilson said that he realized that the two men matched the robbery suspects' descriptions.[3][4] Wilson backed up his cruiser and blocked them. An altercation ensued with Brown and Wilson struggling through the window of the police vehicle for control of Wilson's gun until it was fired.[5] Brown and Johnson then fled, with Wilson in pursuit of Brown. Brown stopped and turned to face the officer, then Brown moved toward him.[6] Wilson fired at Brown several times, all shots striking him in the front, with the possible exception of the two bullets fired into Brown's right arm.[7] In the entire altercation, Wilson fired a total of twelve bullets;[8] the last was probably the fatal shot.[9][10][11] Brown was unarmed and moving toward Wilson when the final shots were fired. Witness reports differed as to what Brown was doing with his hands when he was shot, but the U.S. Department of Justice found that those witnesses who said that Brown had his hands up in surrender were not credible.[12]

The shooting sparked unrest in Ferguson. The "hands up" account was widely circulated within the black community immediately after the shooting and it contributed to the strong protests and outrage about the killing of the unarmed man. The U.S. Department of Justice did not conclude that the "hands up" account was inaccurate until months later.[13] Believing accounts that Brown had his hands up in surrender when he was shot, protesters chanted, "Hands up, don't shoot." Protests, both peaceful and violent, along with vandalism and looting, continued for


I remember the "officer" initially told them the to get the 'f' out of the street it wasn't until after the shooting that the cigar theft was thrown in to the mix. To backfill after the fact.

Am I wrong?

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Reply This is not how I remember the micheal brown shooting. From wiki (Original post)
Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 OP
mainstreetonce Jul 2016 #1
pipoman Jul 2016 #2
Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #3
JHB Aug 2016 #126
brush Jul 2016 #5
pipoman Jul 2016 #10
brush Jul 2016 #12
pipoman Jul 2016 #13
Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #17
pipoman Jul 2016 #25
brush Jul 2016 #61
TipTok Jul 2016 #62
pipoman Jul 2016 #63
brush Jul 2016 #66
pipoman Jul 2016 #70
brush Jul 2016 #71
pipoman Jul 2016 #73
brush Jul 2016 #95
pipoman Jul 2016 #96
pintobean Jul 2016 #100
Uponthegears Jul 2016 #105
pintobean Jul 2016 #116
Uponthegears Jul 2016 #117
pintobean Jul 2016 #118
Uponthegears Jul 2016 #119
pintobean Jul 2016 #120
Uponthegears Jul 2016 #121
pintobean Jul 2016 #122
Uponthegears Jul 2016 #123
pintobean Jul 2016 #124
brush Aug 2016 #131
rgbecker Aug 2016 #152
Travis_0004 Aug 2016 #127
brush Aug 2016 #132
Travis_0004 Aug 2016 #146
Uponthegears Aug 2016 #147
brush Aug 2016 #149
Uponthegears Aug 2016 #150
pkdu Jul 2016 #77
Waldorf Jul 2016 #30
brush Jul 2016 #67
CBGLuthier Jul 2016 #6
pipoman Jul 2016 #9
Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #16
pipoman Jul 2016 #23
Rex Jul 2016 #24
pipoman Jul 2016 #27
Rex Jul 2016 #31
pipoman Jul 2016 #34
Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #41
pipoman Jul 2016 #48
pkdu Jul 2016 #78
pipoman Jul 2016 #83
pkdu Jul 2016 #88
pipoman Jul 2016 #91
Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #158
Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #29
pipoman Jul 2016 #35
brush Jul 2016 #68
pipoman Jul 2016 #69
brush Jul 2016 #72
pipoman Jul 2016 #74
brush Jul 2016 #94
pipoman Jul 2016 #97
Uponthegears Jul 2016 #102
pipoman Jul 2016 #107
Uponthegears Jul 2016 #108
pipoman Jul 2016 #110
Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #141
LongtimeAZDem Jul 2016 #56
pipoman Jul 2016 #92
LongtimeAZDem Jul 2016 #93
pipoman Jul 2016 #98
LongtimeAZDem Jul 2016 #99
killbotfactory Jul 2016 #84
pipoman Jul 2016 #85
killbotfactory Jul 2016 #86
pipoman Jul 2016 #87
killbotfactory Jul 2016 #89
pipoman Jul 2016 #90
JTFrog Jul 2016 #101
pipoman Jul 2016 #104
JTFrog Jul 2016 #113
ripcord Aug 2016 #144
Uponthegears Aug 2016 #148
marble falls Jul 2016 #4
Uponthegears Jul 2016 #7
Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #14
Uponthegears Jul 2016 #18
True Earthling Jul 2016 #26
hack89 Jul 2016 #32
ripcord Jul 2016 #37
Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #58
hack89 Jul 2016 #59
LongtimeAZDem Jul 2016 #55
malthaussen Jul 2016 #8
Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #15
Uponthegears Jul 2016 #19
Igel Jul 2016 #20
Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #21
mythology Jul 2016 #64
gollygee Jul 2016 #11
Name removed Aug 2016 #125
True Earthling Jul 2016 #22
Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #40
pipoman Jul 2016 #47
Vattel Aug 2016 #159
Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #43
hack89 Jul 2016 #28
Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #39
hack89 Jul 2016 #46
Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #50
hack89 Jul 2016 #54
PrideofJefferson Jul 2016 #80
Rex Jul 2016 #33
pipoman Jul 2016 #36
Rex Jul 2016 #38
pipoman Jul 2016 #44
Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #42
pipoman Jul 2016 #45
Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #49
Throd Jul 2016 #57
pipoman Jul 2016 #60
Trust Buster Jul 2016 #51
Lee-Lee Jul 2016 #52
Lil Missy Jul 2016 #53
loyalsister Jul 2016 #65
Boudica the Lyoness Jul 2016 #75
BlueCaliDem Jul 2016 #76
Uponthegears Jul 2016 #79
PrideofJefferson Aug 2016 #129
Enrique Jul 2016 #81
LongtimeAZDem Jul 2016 #109
TeddyR Jul 2016 #82
Boxerfan Jul 2016 #103
Rex Jul 2016 #112
JTFrog Jul 2016 #114
Hoyt Jul 2016 #106
Rex Jul 2016 #111
kristopher Jul 2016 #115
brush Aug 2016 #133
kristopher Aug 2016 #134
brush Aug 2016 #135
kristopher Aug 2016 #136
PrideofJefferson Aug 2016 #128
Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #137
PrideofJefferson Aug 2016 #142
Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #143
PrideofJefferson Aug 2016 #145
Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #155
PrideofJefferson Aug 2016 #157
Skittles Aug 2016 #151
Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #153
Skittles Aug 2016 #154
Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #156
steve2470 Aug 2016 #130
Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #138
steve2470 Aug 2016 #139
Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #140

Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 08:29 AM

1. You are correct.

The chief of police originally said Wilson did not know about the robbery.

That story immediately changed when Wilson put out his story.

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 08:29 AM

2. The Brown shooting isn't a good example of unnecessary police violence...

 

There are plenty of good examples...not this one.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 08:32 AM

3. I'm saying that wiki is trying to edit history

 

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #3)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 06:54 AM

126. "Wikipedia" didn't write it, users did...

...and with events like this what appears can default to what the most obsessive and persistent leave there.

Check it's talk page and edit history. They'll provide more light on what's going on there.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 09:31 AM

5. Blasting an unarmed person 12 times seems pretty representative to me of police violence

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Response to brush (Reply #5)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 10:03 AM

10. See 9

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 10:40 AM

12. Look up what unarmed means. Also while you're at it look up how the cop in North Charleston also . .

shot an unarmed fleeing man in the back then staged the scene to make it look like he was the one being attacked.

Then look up how many videos have surfaced to show how cops lie to cover their asses.

That cop in Ferguson is one lucky sob because there was no video. Who believes that an unarmed person is going to charge into live bullets and keep charging.

IMO that's a cops cover-up story so he could say "I fear for my life" after he angry, overreacted and killed an unarmed, fleeing man.

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Response to brush (Reply #12)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 11:01 AM

13. When someone charges a cop who is armed

 

Their intent is to arm themselves and disarm the cop...once this happens the cop is dead and so are others... I am sure you have never been in this position....

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Response to pipoman (Reply #13)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 11:33 AM

17. Then maybe police ought to stop carrying then

 

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #17)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 03:33 PM

25. Or maybe you shouldn't side with people who try to kill cops.

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #13)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 01:37 AM

61. You believe the cop. I don't. We've all seen videos that have proved many cops lie to cover. . .

their actions.

Who charges into live bullets live he's superman? Use your head. Black men aren't effin Superman. I don't believe that cock and bull story for a second.

For decades rogue cops have been murdering people of color and everyone believed their side of the story. Now that everyone has a cellphone with video capability, their lies to justify their killings are being shown to be untrue all over the place.

That cop only got away with it because there was no video. And the DOJ report — same thing. They took the cops word for it because there was no video to disprove it.

I repeat, who charges into live bullets like they can't be hurt. That is nothing but a boldfaced lie. You kind of have to suspend disbelief to even think for a minute that that could be true.

Bad cops lie all the time

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Response to brush (Reply #61)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 03:29 AM

62. He didn't seem to have a great track record of quality decision making...

 

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Response to brush (Reply #61)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 07:18 AM

63. The same guy who would do this....

 



A guy who just robbed a convenience store and didn't want to go to jail....a guy who is out of control....do you mean you have never met anyone who did something monumentally stupid?

They took the cops and eyewitnesses word because the alternative was to believe a felon who robbed a convenience store.

Wilson had been a cop in a predominantly black city for many years. Not one single peson came forward during the year long media circus stating Wilson had mistreated them, acted with racism, or any of the other claims against him.

OTOH, there was an endless string of people who claimed Michael Brown was a bully out of control.

I am as frustrated as anybody about police gone wild....this isn't an example of that....this is an example of a tragic death that likely saved the lives of others...

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Response to pipoman (Reply #63)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 03:30 PM

66. Wilson knew nothing of the convenience store incident when he killed Brown

Last edited Fri Jul 29, 2016, 12:05 PM - Edit history (1)

Don't believe the hype.

Nobody charges into 12 live bullets coming at them.

Do you seriously believe that cappola?

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Response to brush (Reply #66)

Thu Jul 28, 2016, 06:59 AM

70. Obama's Justice Department says otherwise.

 

Even if he didn't....he did, it has been established....but let's say he didn't....Brown knew he had just robbed a store, he likely assumed he was about to be arrested....some criminals run, some try to beat the cop, some get away, some end up dead...

Believe the felon acted lawfully over the cop without a single complaint, and over Obama's JD. ...some people insist on believing in conspiracy on every incident...

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Response to pipoman (Reply #70)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 12:03 PM

71. The white guy construction workers said he had his hands up and cop kept shooting

Needless to say they weren't called the grand jury.

Nobody charges into 12 live bullets, I don't care what the DOJ said, and I feel sorry for you if you believe that cock and bull story.

The only thing that saved that killer cops ass is there was no video.

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Response to brush (Reply #71)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 02:19 PM

73. "Nobody"...wrong

 

Perhaps nobody in their right mind....pretending your logic applies to someone who just robbed a convenience store or charges police os silliness....charging bullets is not new. Odd you choose to side with a bully robber convicted felon stealing blunts.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #73)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 12:29 AM

95. Of course you would take the word of the cop. He's the only one who said Brown charged into . . .

live fire.

Oh wait, the liar white woman also testified that, along with saying she was in the neighborhood to do research on racism or some outer BS.

Lot of lying was going on to that grand jury.

I noticed you ignore the white construction workers saying that Brown had his hands up but the cop kept shooting.

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Response to brush (Reply #95)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 09:36 AM

96. I take the word of the Justice Department

 

Read their report....there is a link in post 20...conspiracy theorists can never grasp truth.

I accept the word of a person who spent many years policing in a predominantly black city. Who, even with all the outrage, media, and investigators both private and law enforcement didn't have a single person of the literally thousands of resident interactions come forward with a single story of mistreatment, racism, excessive force, ect...not one person.

Michael Brown OTOH had an extensive juvenile record, and left a wake of victims behind him....

No, help yourself....

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Response to brush (Reply #95)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 10:17 AM

100. "Lot of lying was going on to that grand jury"

 

Indeed. Dorian Johnson told several stories. The DOJ and GJ weeded out the liars and only credited witnesses whose stories were consistent, and were supported by the physical evidence.
But, some people just don't accept the findings of those investigators. Evidence be damned, they believe the documented liars.

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Response to Uponthegears (Reply #105)

Sun Jul 31, 2016, 01:40 AM

116. From the DOJ report

 

The results of copy/paste from a pdf make this difficult to read. The text is easier to read from the pdf. It begins on page 58, here:
https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/doj_report_on_shooting_of_michael_brown_1.pdf

xii.
Witness 122
Witness 122 is a 46-year-old
white male. He was laying dr
ain pipe on Canfield Drive
with Witness 130 on the morning of the shooting.
Witness 122 gave six statements, including
testimony before the county gra
nd jury. SLCPD detectives a
nd an FBI agent twice jointly
interviewed him, and SLCPD detectives once in
dependently interviewed
him. Witness 122 and
Witness 130 authored one-page
written statements on advice of
a former boss. Witness 122 and
Witness 130 claimed that they did not discuss what they witn
essed, though Witness 130 admitted
that they read each other’s statements after th
ey were written. Witness 122 gave a media
interview on the condition of anonymity. As
noted throughout this memorandum, federal
prosecutors interviewed many potential witnesses in
an effort to assess credibility and reconcile
internal inconsistencies a
nd inconsistencies with physical evidence,
as is necessary to make a fair
prosecutive decision. Witness 122 ag
reed to meet with federal pr
osecutors only after assurances
that he would not be held against his will at the FBI office, claiming that he had heard of
instances where individuals go to the FBI o
ffice and do not emerge
for days.
According to Witness 122, W
itness 122 and Witness 130 (colle
ctively, “the contractors”)
twice encountered Brown during the morning of
the shootings, first when Brown was alone and
then when Brown was with Witness 101. Witn
ess 122 and Brown did most of the talking, and
the topics included God and smoking marijuana. About 20 minutes after their last conversation
with Brown, the contractors heard a loud bang.
Witness 122 saw Brown running, staggering, or
falling forward. Contrary to th
e autopsy results, Witn
ess 122 described Brow
n being shot in the
back and “knew he had gotten hit.” In fact, bot
h contractors claimed to
have witnessed bullets
go through Brown and exit his bac
k, as evidenced by his shirt
“popping back” and “stuff coming
through.” However, in his interview with fede
ral prosecutors, Witness
122 explained that he
thought that Brown was shot in the back and
stumbled until he saw media reports about the
autopsy commissioned by Brown’s family. After
learning about that autopsy, he realized that
Brown was not shot in the back
and admittedly changed his account.
Witness 122 also claimed that Brown put
his right hand to the ground to regain his
balance when he was hit and as he turned ar
ound. According to both contractors, Brown then
turned around with his hands up and repeatedly
screamed “Okay!” as many as eight times, an
exclamation heard by no other witness. When Witness 122 demonstrated the position of
58
Brown’s hands for federal prosecutors and agen
ts, he wavered from a position of surrender to
one indicative of a person tr
ying to maintain balance.
Contrary to the autopsy results establishing
that the shot to the
top of Brown’s head
would have incapacitated Brown almost immedi
ately, both contractors
insisted that Brown
continued to move toward Wilson as far as 20, 25, or even 30 feet
after the final shots. Witness
122 described Brown as walking “dead on his feet, a
nd then he just fell forward.” Later, both
contractors admitted that they di
d not actually see Brown fall to
the ground, because their view
was obstructed by the co
rner of a building.
Witness 122 insisted that
there were three officers
present during the shootings,
demonstrating the inaccuracy of
his perception. Witn
ess 122 described three uniformed police
officers engaged with Brown in a
“triangle formation” at the time
of the shootings. Witness 122
described a heavyset, older officer, and two “skinny, little people,
” one of whom was possibly a
female and the other with dark hair and a mousta
che, who was a head shorter than the heavyset
officer. Witness 122 described th
e shooter as the heavyset offi
cer. Witness 122 explained that
the heavset officer shot until he ran out of bullets
, and then the shorter officer with the moustache
trained his gun on Brown, but did not shoot. These
statements cannot be rec
onciled with the fact
that Wilson was the only officer present when Brow
n was shot and that Wils
on has a slim build.
Witness 122 also explained that he did not
see Witness 101 at all during the shooting
itself, and did not understand how Witness 101 coul
d claim to see everything if he was hiding
behind a car. Witness 122 also sa
id that contrary to what was
reported in the media, Brown did
not say, “Don’t shoot.”
The contractors, apparently unw
ittingly, were captured on a wi
dely circulated video taken
several minutes after the shooting
while responding officers were
securing the scene with crime
scene tape. That video depict
s another individual yelling, “He
wasn’t no threat at all,” as
Witness 122 put his hands up and stated, “He had
his fucking hands in the air.” As detailed
below, two other witnesses, Witness 128 a
nd Witness 137, each took credit for making the
statement, “He wasn’t no threat at all.”

Both of those witnesses have since acknowledged to
federal agents and prosecutors th
at they did not, in fact, know
whether Brown was a threat.
According to the Brown family, Witness 122 cal
led them after the shooting and told them
that he had seen Wilson shoot Brown execution-
style as Brown was on his knees holding his
hands in the air. However, Witn
ess 122 denied making any statem
ents about the nature of the
shooting to the Brown family. As mentioned,
despite his earlier st
atements, Witness 122
recanted the claim that he actually
saw Brown fall dead to the ground.
Witness 122 has no criminal history. As deta
iled above, material
portions of Witness
122’s accounts are irreconcilable wi
th the physical and forensic
evidence. These accounts are
also inconsistent with each other and inconsistent with credib
le witness accounts. Accordingly,
after a thorough review of all of the evidence, federal prosecut
ors determined this witness’s
accounts not to be credible and therefore do not support a
prosecution of Darren Wilson.



Witness 130
Witness 130 is a 26–year-old white male. As
previously noted, he was laying drain pipe
on Canfield Drive with Witne
ss 122, on the morning of the s
hooting. Witness 130 gave five
statements, including testimony be
fore the county grand jury.
SLCPD detectives and an FBI
agent twice jointly interviewed h
im, and SLCPD detectives once independently interviewed him.
Like Witness 122, Witness 130 authored a one-pag
e written statement on
advice of a former
boss. Witness 122 and Witness 130
claimed that they did not
discuss what they witnessed,
though Witness 130 admitted that they
read each other’s statements
after they were written. Like
Witness 122, Witness 130 ga
ve a media interview on th
e condition of anonymity.
As noted, Witness 122 and Witn
ess 130 twice encountered Brown during the morning of
the shootings, first when Brown was alone a
nd then when Brown was with Witness 101.
Witness 122 and Brown did most
of the talking, and Witness 130 ad
mitted that at times, Brown
seemed paranoid and aggressive, clenching hi
s fists and causing Witn
ess 130 some concern.
Witness 130 thought Brown “was not in his ri
ght mind,” based upon how
paranoid he seemed.
About 20 minutes after their
last conversation with Brow
n, Witness 130 heard a loud
bang. Witness 130 stepped around the corner of an apartment building that was obstructing his
view, and saw Brown “fast walk[ing]” east on Canf
ield Drive. Accordin
g to both contractors,
Brown then turned around with his hands up and
repeatedly screamed “Okay!” as many as eight
times, an exclamation heard by no
other witness According to
Witness 130, after Brown turned
around, he continued to stumble
or otherwise approach Wils
on, although he did not know
whether Brown was speeding up to come after
Wilson, or whether his momentum was carrying
him forward. Wilson then fired at least seven
shots, but as Witness 130 told the grand jury,
Wilson only fired when Brown moved forward.
Witness 130 describe
d Wilson “unloading his
clip” into Brown, although Witn
ess 130 acknowledged that Brown
put his arms down after the
third shot.
Witness 130 explained that Wilson backed up as
Brown approached him.
Contrary to the
autopsy results establishing that the shot to th
e top of Brown’s head w
ould have incapacitated
Brown almost immediately, like Witness 122, W
itness 130 insisted that
Brown continued to
move toward Wilson as far as 20, 25, or even 30 feet
after the final shots.
Contrary to his initial
account, Witness 130 admitted that he did not actu
ally see Brown fall to the ground because his
view was obstructed by the
corner of a building.
Witness 130 has no criminal history. Federal prosecutors attempted to meet with Witness
130 to evaluate inconsistencies in his various
statements. Witness 130 refused to meet with
federal prosecutors, making reliance on his accoun
t problematic because his statements are
inconsistent with each other,
inconsistent with the physical and forensic evidence, and
inconsistent with credible witness accounts. Th
erefore, federal prosecutors could not rely on
Witness 130’s account
to support a prosecution of Darren Wilson.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #116)

Sun Jul 31, 2016, 12:15 PM

117. Please do not apologize for the disjointed C&P

 

I appreciate the fact that you included (at least the DOJ's) description of (some of) the facts, instead of the more popular straw man approach of saying "Obama's DOJ cleared Wilson, you must hate Obama."

(Aside, the investigation was conducted primarily by a police which the DOJ found later to have engaged in systemic discrimination against people of color. The grand jury presentation was structured to favor Wilson (e.g., This was not a "grand jury investigation" where the grand jury determined which witnesses would be subpoenaed etc., A undeniably pro-cop DA allowed Wilson to tell his version of the story as called witnesses favorable to Brown. Witnesses hostile to Wilson were cross-examined aggressively by prosecutors. In a normal grand jury, the prosecution calls ONLY those witnesses which are needed to establish the elements of the offense and the grand jury decides only whether the evidence against the accused -- standing alone and without hearing any of the defense evidence AND with giving that evidence every reasonable inference pointing toward guilt -- is sufficient to establish the elements of an offense.). The FBI investigation was conducted by career agents with criminal investigation backgrounds, who are no less biased than any other cop, and consisted almost entirely of interviews of witnesses who had already been questioned by a police force which was trying to make sure Wilson was never charged. Sanitizing this process by whining in essence "Obama and Holder agreed" is the refuge of a person who cannot or will not discuss facts.)

Even though they don't show the full extent of the manner in which the racist Ferguson police force led this whitewash, the excerpts you included do illustrate much of what I have been trying to explain. Rather than pull out the actual statements and transcripts, which are still available online, I will rely on the descriptions in the report.

First, let's look at who Witness 122 and 130 were. The were the two guys working in close proximity to the scene who had a conversation with Brown prior to his death. According to your excerpt from the DOJ report, both issued one page statements on the advice of their employer. Witness 122 also gave an anonymous interview to a media outlet. As the news article explained, these statements basically describe a murder.

I want to point out something right here and let you keep it in the back of your mind. Witness 122 was questioned FOUR TIMES (6 total statements minus the written statement for his employer and the media interview) by the Ferguson cops AND then attacked by the DA when he testified before the grand jury. As for the manner in which he was questioned, here's an interesting tidbit from your excerpt : "After learning about that autopsy, he realized that Brown was not shot in the back and admittedly changed his account." So after 122 gives his statement (which, btw, said that Brown was shot BOTH in the back and in the front), the cops go back to him and confront him with the autopsy and make him give another statement to "explain" why Brown wasn't hit in the back.

Now let's go to why the DOJ says 122 is "incredible."

First, they say it's because he changes his story to eliminate the "shot in the back ' part. Is there another way to explain this other than that "he's a liar and/or that ALL aspects of his story are unreliable?" Well, yes there is. All of the rounds missing from Wilson's weapons are not accounted for by looking at Wilson's vehicle and Brown's body. In other words, Wilson missed with some of the shots he fired at Brown. Unless you were bound and determined to discount the "hands up" part of the story, wouldn't it be equally, if not more, reasonable to conclude that Witness 122 saw the shots being fired and Brown stop running and naturally assumed that he had been hit? Does this make the "hands up" part incredible? In fact, wouldn't that have almost been a logical assumption?

Next, they say it's because Witness 122 says he hears Brown say "Okay, Okay, Okay" and other witnesses don't. Everyone who claimed to have seen this incident did not have the same perspective. All were not (because none of us do) paying attention to the same things. The other witnesses did not all observe the incident in exactly the same way either. In fact, the "bull rush" witness who gets cited over and over again by Brown haters was the ONLY witness who claimed that. Just because others did not observe this aspect of the incident makes 122 totally incredible how (unless you are just looking for a reason)?

Next, they say it's because 122 said he was "dead on his feet? before he turned around and the fatal injury was undoubtedly inflicted as Brown was leaning forward. Isn't the most logical, in fact the obvious, explanation for this "inconsistency with the physical evidence" that A CONSTRUCTION WORKER ISN'T A DOCTOR and that he was simply wrong and Brown was not fatally wounded before he turned around, but instead that 122 merely saw him moving in an unnatural manner (as one might when in fear for their life and facing a barrage of gunfire). If that were the case, isn't it equally possible that the fatal shot was fired as Brown fell/stumbled forward (a fact described by all witnesses other than the "bull rush" witness, and Wilson). Unless you are looking for a reason to claim the "hands up" never happened, why would you conclude that 122 was qualified to make an assessment of Brown's viability instead of concluding that his medical opinion was an assumption and that the important part of his story was that Brown stopped, turned, and put his hands up?

Next, they say it was because of the "three cops" story. Here, it's important to note that this wasn't in his original statement, but was something he said much later after being repeatedly confronted by the cops and cajoled by the community. Would it have also been reasonable to conclude that 122 conflated his observations of the original incident with his observations of the aftermath when Brown's body was left lying in the street for hours? If not, would it also have been reasonable to conclude that his later statements had been influenced by the talk in the community, whereas his earlier statements were not? What, if anything, makes his ORIGINAL statement "incredible" to anyone without an agenda?

Finally, they say it's incredible because, after being repeatedly questioned by racist cops, after having his credibility challenged by racist cops, he recants his original story and makes a statement saying he actually around the corner? Do you believe that cops get the truth by interrogating people of color in the manner 122 was interrogated? Do you blame 122 for finally giving up after 4 interrogations and telling the cops what they wanted to hear?

I ask all these questions for a simple reason. I agree that a person COULD find 122 incredible for all the reasons under the circumstances described in the DOJ report, particularly if they wanted to believe that Michael Brown was not murdered in cold blood after surrendering. They, however, COULD have concluded otherwise. THAT, however, SHOULD HAVE BEEN a determination made by a jury at a trial.

There is one other thing, however, that was not mentioned in the DOJ report. Something that happened before 122 even gave his original statement. Something that happened even before 122 heard the stories out in the community. Something that happened even before 122 was questioned over and over by racist cops looking to clear their fellow officer. Something that the law considers so inherently reliable that it is admissible at trial even if the witness does not take the stand. It's known as an "excited utterance." It's a statement made about a cotemporaneous event under circumstances where the declarant was under stress.

Witness 122 was one of the two men who were videotaped on someone's cell phone AS MICHAEL BROWN WAS BEING KILLED. In it, they are seen pointing at the scene as the Wilson is putting a bullet in the top of the unarmed Brown's head and screaming that he had his hands up and was trying to surrender.

All the incidents the DOJ throws out there for why 122 MIGHT not be believable do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to affect the credibility of what 122 said as he observed the end of Michael Brown's life. That video should give anyone who isn't out to excuse Wilson and deny the "hands up" scenario pause before they accept the career DOJ/FBI willingness to interpret every possible problem with 122's statements against the credibility of the core of his story.

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Response to Uponthegears (Reply #117)

Sun Jul 31, 2016, 12:19 PM

118. tl;dr dc

 

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Response to pintobean (Reply #118)

Sun Jul 31, 2016, 01:46 PM

119. Facts are like that

 

Sorry to offend

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Response to Uponthegears (Reply #119)

Sun Jul 31, 2016, 02:53 PM

120. You don't offend me.

 

dc = don't care

I don't really have much respect for people who latch onto "witnesses" who have been proven wrong repeatedly. There's only one reason people change their stories. It's pretty simple, really.
It's a shame that the facts don't support what you want to have happened.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #120)

Sun Jul 31, 2016, 03:00 PM

121. There is only one reason people

 

change their stories

That is a joke right?

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Response to Uponthegears (Reply #121)

Sun Jul 31, 2016, 03:06 PM

122. It was a coded message

 

that I found in the roll of Reynolds Wrap that Eric Holder gave me.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #122)

Sun Jul 31, 2016, 03:17 PM

123. Oh my

 

And right back to hiding behind the Justice Department report.

Try hiding behind FACTS.

You took a stab at trying to discredit 122 and 130 by repeating the report and got schooled (which of course you don't realize because you "dc" to look at the facts), so you don't get to hide there.

Ya got anything else?

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Response to Uponthegears (Reply #123)

Sun Jul 31, 2016, 03:26 PM

124. Lol. No, I'm done.

 

Schooled, huh?

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Response to Uponthegears (Reply #117)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 10:31 AM

131. Well said, well reasoned post. The cop apologists here probably won't give it credence . . .

Last edited Mon Aug 1, 2016, 08:35 PM - Edit history (1)

though, much less read it all the way through.

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Response to Uponthegears (Reply #117)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 09:17 PM

152. 100%

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Response to brush (Reply #71)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 07:18 AM

127. The autopsy showed that his hands were down

 

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Response to Travis_0004 (Reply #127)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 10:35 AM

132. The autopsy doesn't, and can't possibly show that his hands were down . . .

through the whole of the incident.

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Response to brush (Reply #132)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 07:07 PM

146. True, it only showed that his hands were down when he was shot.

 

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Response to Travis_0004 (Reply #146)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 07:55 PM

147. Which shots?

 

Actually the forensic pathologist testified (page 198 grand jury transcript) that he could not determine the position of the hands at the time the wounds to his arms were received. More importantly he testified that the only thing he could say about the wounds to the torso were that Brown was facing Wilson as those wounds were sustained. Even if we assume that the fact that the wounds to his arms were to what we normally consider the "front" that his hands were down (which the pathologist declined to do), the wounds to his torso and the non-fatal wound to his head could have been inflicted with his hands up.

Under the best case scenario for cop defenders, the autopsy shows nothing more than that SOME of the shots may have been fired when his hands were down.

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Response to Travis_0004 (Reply #146)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 08:22 PM

149. Yes, shot while UNAMRED.

Just a minor detail .

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Response to brush (Reply #149)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 08:41 PM

150. Yep

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #63)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 04:58 PM

77. Felon?....do go on...

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Response to brush (Reply #12)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 06:49 PM

30. He did charge towards Wilson. Its in the DOJ investigation. n/t

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Response to Waldorf (Reply #30)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 03:32 PM

67. And you believe someone charged into 12 live bullets?

Hah!

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Response to pipoman (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 09:47 AM

6. Oh do go on, is it cause he was one of those hepped up super black men the police fear so much?

Yeah, unarmed man shot 12 times is necessary police violence. Brilliant.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #6)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 10:02 AM

9. He charged a cop...

 

Immediately after terrorizing and robbing a store owner...it isn't a good example.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #9)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 11:29 AM

16. The murderer knew nothing of the robbery at the time of the confrontation

 

And cop's are supposed to be able to handle a "charging" person without emptying their gun into them

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #16)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 03:07 PM

23. No they aren't. So you think a badge = superman?

 

You think 140 lb woman is supposed to "be able to handle" a 300lb charging man? Only dumb people who haven't a single clue what it means to be a cop thinks such stupid shit.

Did you see the video from the store? The felon convenience store robber was out of fucking control. He left the store and remained out of control until he was stopped.

It doesn't matter if the cop knew about the robbery or not, the felon knew. The felon knew he was going to jail. The felon attacked a cop hoping to get away. The felon was shot and killed for his reckless action.

Using this incident as proof of police brutality when there are many actual incidents is dumb.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #23)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 03:12 PM

24. Seems rather obvious you don't know what police brutality is.

 

Brown is a great example of excessive force by a cop.

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Response to Rex (Reply #24)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 03:36 PM

27. Tell me after you have copped for 5 minutes.

 

No chance of that happening. Every cop you have ever met would have reacted the exact same way.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #27)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 06:57 PM

31. Wrong.

 

Not a chance and you know that, cops all react differently. Please stop pretending to know what they would do. Thanks.

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Response to Rex (Reply #31)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 10:38 PM

34. Every cop is trained to protect their weapon with deadly force.

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #27)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 08:51 AM

41. We've seen many examples of white people doing to cops things that would have gotten a black man kil

 

My guess is that if that were a white man charging him that cop would have thought of something other than shoot 1st

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #41)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 09:28 AM

48. Twice as many whites are shot by police than blacks...fact.

 

You would be wrong.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #48)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 05:02 PM

78. Um , wouldn't use that "fact" even if the math is correct as there is an inherent problem in it

in fact it proves AA are getting shot at a dis-proportionally higher rate than whites!

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Response to pkdu (Reply #78)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 06:29 PM

83. It is about the same rate as commission of murder by race...

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #83)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 07:00 PM

88. You seem to having trouble making a point? or are you just throwing out a list of unrelated data

points?

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Response to pkdu (Reply #88)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 07:25 PM

91. I can't help it if you can't understand...it really is simple.

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #48)

Wed Aug 3, 2016, 10:44 PM

158. Dylan Roof was calmly brought into police custody after killing nine people during a prayer service

 

Dylan Roof was calmly brought into police custody after killing nine people during a prayer service at Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, SC.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #23)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 06:42 PM

29. My purpose for posting this was in no way about police

 

Brutality

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #29)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 10:46 PM

35. This case was the proverbial straw on the issue of unpunished

 

Bad acts by police, police brutality, and racism....it turned out to be none of those things. The issue of police brutality must be brought into the daylight, it never will if cases of legitimate use of force are the example...it hurts the cause.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #35)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 03:52 PM

68. The Brown case was not legitimate use of force.

What, and I've just got to say it, believes that cock and bull story that an unarmed someone charged into 12 live bullets?

Even 2 white construction workers close by who witnessed it said that his hands were raised yet the cop still kept shooting.

Of course they were not called to testify by the crooked DA, but a woman who was known by the DA to be lying was allowed to testify the Brown charged the cop.

Many of us are not fooled by the whitewash of another unarmed black man killed by a murderer cop.

Charging unarmed into 12 live bullets, yeah, right.

Wanna buy a bridge?

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Response to brush (Reply #68)

Thu Jul 28, 2016, 06:51 AM

69. This guy would....

 



See people do stupid shit every single day....cops see it...others not so much...someone who just robbed a store, who doesn't want to go to jail often does stupid shit....

You do know that Obama's Justice Department did a complete investigation? That they write a report for all to see? You do know that Wilson had been a cop in a predominantly black city for many years and not one single person came forward or was dug up by the army of press to say that Wilson had treated them poorly, acted with racism, or done anything at all?

All this and you choose to believe it is a good case to argue police misconduct?

It isn't.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #69)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 12:20 PM

72. The guy was unarmed. The cop didn't know about the convenience store incident yet still gunned . . .

Last edited Sat Jul 30, 2016, 12:20 AM - Edit history (1)

down the unarmed man.

That's misconduct if there ever was misconduct.

Whatever happened at the store is not an executable offense, even if the cop knew about it — which he didn't.

You keep trying with the cop apologist line, but you keep trying to make people forget the victim was UNARMED, the cop us 6'4" and 240 pounds. He's a big guy himself and shouldn't afraid for his life from an UNARMED guy.

If so, he should get another profession. Oh, wait. He did. He was allowed resign. Guess the fear caught up with him.

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Response to brush (Reply #72)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 04:03 PM

74. "Unarmed" no...he was armed with legs and arms and a desire to disarm a cop

 

People who haven't a clue pretend one has to have a gun in their hand to be a threat....it is always sideliners ...

Take a defensive arms class...you do know cops don't have super powers, no? If Brown got his gun because you want to see a duel the cop is dead and so are others likely. There is a winner and loser in every fight and the cop cannot be the loser arming a convicted felon who just committed a robbery. It was a perfectly legitimate shoot whether you like it or not....and again, even if you disagree, surely you have to agree that this is a horrible example to use to demonstrate police brutality?

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Response to pipoman (Reply #74)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 12:25 AM

94. There you go leaving out important details.

The cop grabbed Brown thru the squad car window, not a smart thing to do as he had no leverage to win that battle. There was a struggle and Brown pulled away and ran.

The murderer cop got out and started shooting. He had his gun, he was firing at an unarmed man.

If he was so scared, all he had to do was call for back up and arrest him later, after all, where the hell is a 300 lb teenager going to hide for long in that small town?

But no, the cop wanted to shoot, so he kept shooting 12 times.

To write that arms and legs are a match for 12 live rounds is about the silliest thing you said so far.

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Response to brush (Reply #94)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 09:41 AM

97. So you believe his criminal counterpart over Obama's Justice Department....got it

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #97)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 10:28 AM

102. Let's see, eyewitness vs.

 

DOJ interviews conducted AFTER Ferguson cops had poisoned the witnesses against Wilson hmmmm.

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Response to Uponthegears (Reply #102)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 11:14 AM

107. Eyewitness = most unreliable form of evidence

 

DOJ looked at all evidence....kewp pretending...

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Response to pipoman (Reply #107)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 11:26 AM

108. Okay, so if eyewitnesses are incredible

 

Make a case for reasonable force based solely upon non-eyewitness testimony.

You don't have a problem with eyewitness testimony. You have a problem with the eyewitness testimony of the neighborhood residents.

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Response to Uponthegears (Reply #108)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 02:34 PM

110. No, my preference is body cams on every officer....

 

There is no current requirement for that...

I repeat...an officer who had interacted for what was it? A decade? In predominantly black cities and NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON out of what has to be thousands of interactions came forward with a story about any of the claims now being made. The DOJ looked at ALL of the evidence. If you think for an instant the Barack Obama would order his DOJ to cover anything about this up....I can't help you...

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Response to pipoman (Reply #74)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 04:17 PM

141. Much like Trayvon was "armed" with the sidewalk

 

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #16)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 11:01 AM

56. Again, false; the dispatcher alerted the "seating in progress", with descriptions, well before (nt)

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #56)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 07:29 PM

92. See post 20 below...the Justice Department disagrees and actually has evidence to the contrary

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #92)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 08:09 PM

93. I think you meant to post this to someone else, because you're agreeing with me

although, I did say "seating" instead of "stealing" (auto-correct!) but got it right below.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #93)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 09:49 AM

98. .....

 

Ooops...I thought I was alone on this thread...

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Response to pipoman (Reply #98)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 10:04 AM

99. I know exactly how you feel (nt)

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Response to pipoman (Reply #9)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 06:33 PM

84. Why would anyone charge a cop who has his gun drawn?

That's like the "Trayvon jumped out of the bushes and charged the strange guy stalking him and who he was actively trying to get away from while on the phone with his friend" bullshit.

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Response to killbotfactory (Reply #84)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 06:36 PM

85. Why would anyone bully and terrorize a store owner over a box of blunts?

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #85)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 06:52 PM

86. because a couple dollars worth of blunts are trivial compared to your life? nt

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Response to killbotfactory (Reply #86)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 07:00 PM

87. No...poor judgement...many times....in rapid succession...

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #87)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 07:10 PM

89. So he was running away, stopped, turned around and charged at a cop with a gun drawn?

He had the typical "fight, flee... no wait, fight" response?

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Response to killbotfactory (Reply #89)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 07:24 PM

90. Read the Obama DoJ report...it is comprehensive...

 

See post 20 below for a link...

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Response to pipoman (Reply #2)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 10:25 AM

101. Fuck that piece of shit murdering cop.

 

It is most definitely everything you say it's not. And fuck that thin blue line.

Motherfuckers need to quit being murderous pigs. All that thin blue line does is make people not trust cops, including the so called good ones who always seem to toe that line regardless of right or wrong,

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Response to JTFrog (Reply #101)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 10:56 AM

104. Barack Obama's Justice Department

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #104)

Sun Jul 31, 2016, 12:12 AM

113. Fuck that piece of shit murdering pig.

 

And all the fucking cops who toe the thin blue line.

End of.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #104)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 05:36 PM

144. Funny that we trusted them when they cleared Hillary

Can we make a cheat sheet of when and when not to trust the DOJ? Or does it just depend on our feelings about that particular decision?

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Response to ripcord (Reply #144)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 07:57 PM

148. Thanks for the revealing post

 

Are you sure of where you are?

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 08:35 AM

4. No, I don't think you're wrong, I've read that more than once, too.

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 09:49 AM

7. Allow me to propose another scenario

 

For reasons that I choose not to discuss, I have read every witness statement and law enforcement report in the Michael Brown case. I have also talked to some of the eyewitnesses. Even leaving out the conversations I've had, there are two distinct versions of what happened that day.

The first is only slightly different from the Wiki version (no one in their right mind is claiming that Wilson knew about the convenience store incident until after Michael Brown was laying dead in the street). It comes from eyewitnesses who saw a struggle at the driver's side window of Wilson's car, eyewitnesses who claimed that Brown was charging Officer Wilson, and Officer's Wilson's own account, given days after the shooting. It is consistent with the physical evidence. It is a version which, though troubling, reduces racial tension by framing the Brown killing to a question of whether "excessive force" was used, as opposed to whether young black males are being targeted by the legal system with the intent of imprisoning, disenfranchising, executing, and/or simply gunning them down. As you might guess, it is a version that those charged with maintaining order would prefer most people believe.

There is a second version. It comes from the account of Dorian Johnson, the eyewitness statement of the first two witnesses interviewed by law enforcement and the eyewitnesses who said Michael Brown was running away from Officer Wilson as he fired at him, then turned, faced Wilson with his hands raised and was then essentially executed. It is ALSO consistent with the physical evidence.

In that version, Michael and Dorian are walking down the street (technically "illegally" but in exactly the same manner as thousands of white teenage boys do) when they are summoned over to Wilson's police vehicle (why, because cops do that little power play all the friggin' time just to show young black males that they are the boss). Michael is inadequately servile and talks back when Wilson starts giving him the "what are you doing here . . . do you know I could arrest you for walking in the street instead of the sidewalk." Wilson become irate (as cops are want to do when a young black male give them disrespect) and grabs Michael. Michael struggles to get away and when he does, Wilson goes for his gun. During the struggle, shots go off inside the police vehicle. Michael pulls away and starts to run (why? . . . maybe because at this point he knows what Wilson is going to do) Wilson fires at him and yells at him to stop. Brown stops and turns back toward Wilson. Wilson continues to fire, with a final round entering the top of Brown's head as he falls.

The "official" reasons for rejecting this version are: (1) Dorian Johnson is automatically less credible that Wilson; (2) (this takes a little time) the two eyewitness who stated they saw what was nothing short of Michael Brown's murder, initially stated was that they believed Brown was initially hit in the back as he ran, otherwise their statement was entirely consistent with the physical evidence (and, save for the fact that they believed Brown was hit as he ran, WAS consistent with the physical evidence). It was, however, directly contrary to Wilson. Local law enforcement re-interviewed these witnesses at least twice, each time challenging different aspects of their story and each time using leading questions to guide them into making each subsequent statement a little different than the prior statement (it's a technique which law enforcement uses when trying to elicit a confession). Ultimately, they confront these witnesses with these manufactured inconsistencies and the witnesses "agree" that they aren't so sure that the statements they gave within hours of the shooting were accurate. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. By the time the Justice Department gets to them, they have been burnt to a crisp; (3) there is no witness to explain how shots were fired in the car other than Wilson (because the other witness is DEAD); (4) the almost bizarre story that Brown is shot in the top of the head because he was charging Wilson with his head down is somehow more likely than that the final shot is inflicted as Brown is falling to the ground.

Yes, IF you believe Wilson, IF you think that cops badgering witnesses produce "truth," if you believe that young black males are automatically incredible because (shocker) they have had previous encounters with law enforcement, if you believe that physical evidence which can support two versions of an event should be interpreted in a light most favorable to the cops, THEN you can go home and tell yourself that the system works and that justice was done for Michael Brown.

If not, you need to ask yourself how deep the roots of institutional racism have grown.

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Response to Uponthegears (Reply #7)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 11:26 AM

14. (no one in their right mind is claiming that Wilson knew about the convenience store incident until

 

(no one in their right mind is claiming that Wilson knew about the convenience store incident until after Michael Brown was laying dead in the street). This is exactly what it said. It said the murderer Wilson stopped them because he matched the description of the robbery and that micheal Brown then tried to take murderer Wilson's gun

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 11:38 AM

18. Just amazing

 

and totally untrue

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 03:34 PM

26. On the contrary...the JD investigation reported Wilson was aware of the robbery BEFORE he stopped

Michael Brown...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/feds-evidence-backs-ferguson-officers-account-shooting-204518582.html?ref=gs

The Justice Department report says that police dispatch recordings and Wilson's radio transmissions show that he was aware of the theft and had a description of the suspects as he encountered Brown, who was carrying stolen cigarillos.

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 07:04 PM

32. The Justice Department disagrees with you.

Why don't you talk to them?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #32)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 11:13 PM

37. The DOJ is only right when they agree with us

if they don't agree with us they are wrong, isn't that how it is supposed to work?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #32)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 02:36 PM

58. That's one cute and clever reply

 

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #58)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 02:50 PM

59. The Wiki page references the Justice Department investigation.

so yes - they do disagree with you. You just don't like the answer.

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #14)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 10:56 AM

55. False; the dispatcher alerted the "steaing in progress" at 11:53 am (nt)

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 09:51 AM

8. Wikipedia is open to anyone to edit.

Content is not fact-checked by anyone but other users, who are free to add their own bits.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 11:27 AM

15. I know so I registered as an editor and changed it

 

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #15)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 11:38 AM

19. ^5

 

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #15)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 01:33 PM

20. It'll be reverted.

Memories are pretty bad, and a lot of people believe the first reports or the reports of those they want to believe or which fit their prior beliefs.


"The dispatch recordings and Wilson’s radio transmissions establish that Wilson was aware of the theft and had a description of the suspects as he encountered Brown and Witness 101."
https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/doj_report_on_shooting_of_michael_brown_1.pdf
It's on page 6 of the document, and the rest of the page is pertinent to this thread.


At the time the police chief spoke, I'm guessing he said something like "there's no evidence Warren" knew of the description. Which can only mean, when somebody says, "there's no evidence," something like "I'm not aware of any evidence...".

How much of Dorian's account is true is an open question. His account left out what a lot of forensic evidence says almost certainly happened. Oddly, what he left out would make the officer's actions more understandable, and just leaves stuff that makes his friend innocent and the "enemy" guilty. After the 5th or 6th retelling, his memories were probably sufficiently smudged that he may have even stopped remembering what was discordant.

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Response to Igel (Reply #20)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 01:39 PM

21. Which is why wiki cannot ever be a reliable source

 

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #21)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 08:36 AM

64. The sources cited can be

 

Just because you don't like the result of the DOJ investigation, doesn't mean it's wrong. The article was correct based on the best available evidence.

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 10:18 AM

11. Not how I remember it either.

Anyone can put anything on Wikipedia.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #11)


Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 02:51 PM

22. Did you read the citations noted in the Wiki?

The JD thoroughly investigated...all statements of fact in a Wiki entry must be supported by a citation from a credible source...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/feds-evidence-backs-ferguson-officers-account-shooting-204518582.html?ref=gs

"Multiple credible witnesses corroborate virtually every material aspect of Wilson's account and are consistent with the physical evidence," the report said.

It added: "Based on this investigation, the Department has concluded that Darren Wilson's actions do not constitute prosecutable violations."

That mirrors the determination of a St. Louis County grand jury, which decided in November not to bring state criminal charges against Wilson. Here's a look at some of the key findings in the federal report:
___

ROBBERY SUSPECT

Wilson first encountered Brown and his friend, Dorian Johnson, walking in the middle of a Ferguson street, just minutes after a report of a robbery at a nearby convenience store. According to Wilson's testimony, after he told the two to move out of the street, he realized they matched the description of the robbery suspects. The Justice Department report says that police dispatch recordings and Wilson's radio transmissions show that he was aware of the theft and had a description of the suspects as he encountered Brown, who was carrying stolen cigarillos.

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Response to True Earthling (Reply #22)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 08:48 AM

40. If he knew about the robbery he would have tried to arrest them Them instead of just telling them to

 

If he knew about the robbery he would have tried to arrest
Them instead of just telling them to get out of the street? Wouldn't he have said something about the robbery to either of the 2 men or over the radio to their dispatcher?

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #40)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 09:26 AM

47. Ask the Obama JD...are you pretending they didn't investigate?

 

Nobody cares about 'it stands to reason'....the facts are what they are....this case is a terrible example of police misconduct....

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Response to pipoman (Reply #47)

Wed Aug 3, 2016, 11:13 PM

159. +1

 

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Response to True Earthling (Reply #22)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 08:56 AM

43. The same doj that couldn't find anything actionable with the fraud committed by the banksters

 

People don't see what they don't want to see

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 03:45 PM

28. Wiki reflects what the Justice Department investigation found.

Last edited Tue Jul 26, 2016, 09:15 AM - Edit history (1)

so it is probably accurate. They, for example, did determine that Wilson knew about the convenience store robbery and the cigar theft before he saw Brown.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #28)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 08:47 AM

39. If he knew about the robbery he would have tried to arrest them

 

Them instead of just telling them to get out of the street? Wouldn't he have said something about the robbery to either of the 2 men or over the radio to their dispatcher?

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #39)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 09:17 AM

46. I suggest you find and read the Justice Department investigation

It will answer most, if not all, of your questions.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #46)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 10:28 AM

50. Oh I'm sure what they call the facts back up the conclusion

 

They wanted

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #50)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 10:46 AM

54. So President Obama directed the Attorney General to cover up a murder?

really?

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #50)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 05:50 PM

80. The lengths we will go

 

to make the facts fit our narrative. As a liberal, it's the facts that matter to me.

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 07:06 PM

33. Opinion sites are worth as much as the people posting their opinions about events.

 

The narrative must remain at all costs.

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Response to Rex (Reply #33)

Mon Jul 25, 2016, 11:03 PM

36. You don't trust the Obama Justice Department?

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #36)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 12:30 AM

38. Is Wiki the JD?

 

Nice try.

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Response to Rex (Reply #38)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 09:10 AM

44. Almost the entire wiki entry is from the Obama JD report...

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #36)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 08:54 AM

42. The Obama doj let the banksters walk, trust only goes so far. Strangely the u.s. Couldn't find

 

Anything actionable yet other countries could and did

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #42)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 09:17 AM

45. Other countries were investigating Ferguson?

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #45)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 10:25 AM

49. What do you think

 

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #49)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 12:07 PM

57. That they weren't.

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #49)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 03:50 PM

60. What do I think? I think idiots and fools think they did...

 

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 10:40 AM

51. The information in the OP is consistent with the Justice Department findings.

 

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 10:41 AM

52. Because you remember the media and activist narrative that spread wildly right after

 

Instead of the fact and evidence based account that came as a result of investigations by multiple agencies including the DOJ under Eric Holder- who sent a huge team of investigators there way bigger than such an incident normally warrants.

That is the huge danger in gabbing the immediate narrative and running with it without waiting for actual facts and evidence. You remember what was being said, but not what the forensics and investigation show actually occurred.

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 10:45 AM

53. I've always thought this particular case didn't deserve as much attention as some others.

The investigation found that he tried to wrestle the gun away from the officer, then later charged at the officer. That is a justified reason to exercise self-defense. The shoot was justified in this case.

I've seen several other shootings though, that were clearly unjustified, a couple I'd call murder. This isn't one of them.

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 11:04 AM

65. More context

No, Michael Brown was not a squeaky clean suspect- victim. But, that shooting revealed seriously corrupt criminal injustice system.

People in Ferguson were regularly having their lives ruined over parking tickets, and was the case in other locales that black majority populations. Parking tickets along with low level violations with many people could not afford to pay were translated into arrests because warrents were issued to collect those fines. http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/03/ferguson-as-a-criminal-conspiracy-against-its-black-residents-michael-brown-department-of-justice-report/386887/


It turned out that Darren Wilson had transferred from Jennings, MO, where the police department was so corrupt and racist that it was disbanded.

Aside from that, Ferguson was built on redlining. While the population shifted, the police departments remained majority white. The presense of racism among STL county police departments is well documented in the DOJ report.


That government, not mere private prejudice, was responsible for segregating greater St. Louis was once conventional informed opinion. A federal appeals court declared 40 years ago that “segregated housing in the St. Louis metropolitan area was … in large measure the result of deliberate racial discrimination in the housing market by the real estate industry and by agencies of the federal, state, and local governments.” Similar observations accurately describe every other large metropolitan area. This history, however, has now largely been forgotten.



Other African Americans followed the Williams family by purchasing homes in Ferguson, but the African American community grew slowly. In 1970, shortly after the family moved to Ferguson, the city’s population was less than 1 percent black. But it had some multifamily buildings that attracted renters from St. Louis. Then, as public housing in St. Louis was demolished in the 1970s, the St. Louis Housing Authority gave relocation assistance to displaced families. It is likely that some of those families moved to Ferguson and other inner-ring suburbs. By 1980, Ferguson was 14 percent black; by 1990, 25 percent; by 2000, 52 percent; and by 2010, 67 percent. Other northern and northwestern suburbs near St. Louis were similarly experiencing an increasing share of black residents during this period. Meanwhile, suburbs beyond the first ring to the south and west of St. Louis have remained almost all white, while the white population share of the city of St. Louis itself has been stable and has even started to grow. St. Louis’s downtown area and neighborhoods west of it to the city border went from 36 percent white in 2000 to 44 percent white in 2010. Within that area, whites are now a solid majority in some neighborhoods for the first time in decades.


http://www.epi.org/publication/making-ferguson/



I point this out because smearing the victim as a distraction from the big picture has a long tradition. It's the reason few have heard of Colleen Culver.

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 04:40 PM

75. You were listening to the same hype that sparked the awful riots.

 

The truth was different.

From memory;

Wilson heard about the robbery on his radio. He saw the two walking down the middle of the street making traffic go around them. He told them to use the sidewalk and the slimmer fellow told him they were just going a little further on. Wilson starts to drive off and notices the stolen items in their hands and also notices they fit the description of the two that stole from the store and knocked the store clerk around.

Wilson backs up and opens his door to speak to them. Brown swears at him and pushes the door closed again, then he hits Wilson. Wilson, still seated, tries to defend himself. I think he grabs Brown's clothing. Wilson is sitting on his stick and can't use pepper spray because Brown is leaning into the cruiser with him. He reaches for his holstered gun. Wilson also reaches for the gun. Wilson is fighting for his life. Brown has his hand on the gun. Wilson manages get a shot off. Brown gets shot in the arm or hand. There's Browns finger prints and blood all over the inside of the police car.

Brown runs off then turns and charges back. Blood on the ground and witness's prove this.

There was no 'hands-up, don't shoot' bullshit. Brown was a criminal and a potential cop killer. If Wilson hadn't stopped him Brown would have taken Wilson's gun, killed Wilson and started doing armed robberies instead of strong-arm robberies.

The narrative that was being repeated did not match the facts. Nobody in a leadership position stepped up to tell the truth. People will never forget that. Furthermore, people yelling "Black lives matter" during the moment of silence for the fallen officers at the DNC convention will not be forgotten. It will backfire on the Democrats.

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 04:46 PM

76. You are NOT wrong. You are 100 percent correct.

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 05:13 PM

79. Message to the Brown haters

 

Y'all keep screaming "read the Justice Department report." Let's me suggest something else. Read the transcripts of the witness interviews, read the transcripts of the grand jury presentation by the racist DA. At one point the Post Dispatch had them on line. Read them without looking for a reason to disbelieve Dorian Johnson. Read them without looking for a reason to disbelieve the "hands up" witnesses. Read them like a black person living in Ferguson and taking crud off of the cops every single day reads them. Read them with the eyes of the victims of systemic racism. Quit reading them with the eyes of privilege OR the eyes of someone who doesn't want to offend the privileged right before an election.

You'd be on the streets too.

BLACK LIVES MATTER

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Response to Uponthegears (Reply #79)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 09:25 AM

129. I am trying to understand

 

but as a liberal I have always tried to have no lens with which I look to evaluate facts. Science, reason, fact these are the hallmarks of being a liberal (with a healthy does of compassion). Are there cases of police brutality, of course. Should BLM hook it's wagon to this, maybe not. A good cause can be hurt when the one of its signature moments is not supported by the facts.

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 05:57 PM

81. how could you remember what happened?

you weren't there.

What you "remember", you are remembering what you read or heard at the time, before any investigations took place. This wiki article has the benefit of all the investigations and all the reporting that has happened in the last 2 years.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #81)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 11:45 AM

109. Exactly; one of the points of the BLM manifesto is "Independently investigate and prosecute police

police misconduct."

If such investigations are just dismissed when we don't like the outcome, that point is meaningless.

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 06:02 PM

82. A grand jury investigation

 

And DOJ investigation found no wrongdoing.

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 10:34 AM

103. Ackkk this post is infested by Fuzz

And the Fuzz is trying to convince us how Michael Brown just had to be shot 12 times....

Effing disgusting & no you don't convince me at all....

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Response to Boxerfan (Reply #103)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 02:42 PM

112. It seems to be the opposite effect imo, people are reading what they type and realize

 

YES cops will cover for racist-abusive-murdering cops. So I hope they keep it up, it is backfiring on them every time they defend the indefensible.

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Response to Boxerfan (Reply #103)

Sun Jul 31, 2016, 12:13 AM

114. It's fucking disgusting and pathetic. nt

 

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 11:11 AM

106. You are correct. But whatever happened, there was no excuse to shoot Brown that many times.

 

I can see shots being fired if there was a struggle at the car. After that, not much excuse.

Heck, supposedly Wilson fired up to 12 shots in a neighborhood where innocent people could have been hit. That doesn't sound like something a smart/good policeman would do.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #106)

Sat Jul 30, 2016, 02:41 PM

111. Well it doesn't help that the city PD was holding the entire population of POC economic

 

hostages. It really exposed that PD for being full of a lot of rotten apples. The way Wilson fled like a coward with the PDs help was reprehensible too.

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Sun Jul 31, 2016, 12:34 AM

115. From 'minimum force' to 'Unleashing the Warrior Spirit'

Law enforcement officers should use only the amount of force necessary to mitigate an incident, make an arrest, or protect themselves or others from harm. The levels, or continuum, of force police use include basic verbal and physical restraint, less-lethal force, and lethal force.

http://www.nij.gov/topics/law-enforcement/officer-safety/use-of-force/pages/welcome.aspx

Unleashing the Warrior Spirit
There are times when a cop’s best defense is a good offense.

<snip>
There needs to be more-much more. There should also be a mindset that is taught to every officer about how to go from the defensive to the offensive. You need to know how to release the beast from within in order to survive and win. There's a time to talk and a time to fight. There are times when your nice guy Mr. Rogers community-policing personality needs to be replaced by Godzilla.

Mindset is important for any officer. The ability to change from prey to predator can save you from bodily harm or even death. When the time is right, you must know how to draw from within and understand that the will to win and survive isn't just a nice attribute, but a critical one.

Law enforcement critics may say that offensive training can turn officers into goons and thugs. That's true, if you don't know when and where to shift from the defensive mindset to the offensive mindset. You can become a bully. And that's bad. But not being able to make the shift to the offensive when you need to can turn you into a hospital patient or a corpse, and that's worse.

Further, your ethics and knowledge of criminal law will help you decide when to go into an offensive mode. Your training and experience are used as the filtering mechanism in deciding when to go offensive....

http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2003/03/guest-editorial.aspx


Note in particular this paragraph where the life of the officer is valued above the life of innocents. Yes, that is what it says:
Law enforcement critics may say that offensive training can turn officers into goons and thugs. That's true, if you don't know when and where to shift from the defensive mindset to the offensive mindset. You can become a bully. And that's bad. But not being able to make the shift to the offensive when you need to can turn you into a hospital patient or a corpse, and that's worse.


To not be a goon or thug, requires the knowledge to shift.
It makes one a "bully".
That is bad.
"BUT"
Not being able to do it when you need it is worse than the potential for creating thugs, goons, and bullies and inflicting their behavior on an innocent public.

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Response to kristopher (Reply #115)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 10:50 AM

133. All well and good, but shooting 12 times at an unarmed, fleeing man . . .

come on.

No excuse for that. The cop got his ego bruised and to retaliation on a black guy who "didn't know his place".

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Response to brush (Reply #133)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 11:30 AM

134. You may have missed my point.

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Response to kristopher (Reply #134)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 11:39 AM

135. Sorry if I did, but what was it?

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Response to brush (Reply #135)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 11:42 AM

136. I don't think I can make it more clear.

Did you read the entire post?

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 09:12 AM

128. Benghazi!

 

Last edited Mon Aug 1, 2016, 10:02 AM - Edit history (1)

Why do I get the distinct impression that this is the progressive Benghazi. No matter how many investigations clear Wilson some folks will not let the facts stand as they are. Maybe you folks should call Hannity for some tips.

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Response to PrideofJefferson (Reply #128)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 03:18 PM

137. Maybe because your seeing what you want to see

 

And your happy with what you see therefore everyone else is just delusional

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #137)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 04:57 PM

142. I wasn't there

 

But I do trust Eric Holder and Barack Obama. These two men would have no reason to whitewash this incident. In fact I think both these men have acknowledged the problem of police relations in our minority communities and are sensitive to this reality. Are the concerns of BLM valid, certainly but this may not be the clearest example of what they are trying to get everyone to see.

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Response to PrideofJefferson (Reply #142)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 05:12 PM

143. I wasn't there. That's cute

 

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #143)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 05:39 PM

145. What's cute about that

 

Where you there?

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Response to PrideofJefferson (Reply #145)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 10:12 PM

155. No I wasn't there either sorry you don't understand my point

 

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #155)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 10:25 PM

157. My goodness

 

I wish I could.

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #143)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 08:58 PM

151. you lost that one

oh yes

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Response to Skittles (Reply #151)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 10:11 PM

153. Lost? I didn't realize this was a game

 

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #153)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 10:12 PM

154. LOLOL

you lose again!

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Response to Skittles (Reply #154)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 10:13 PM

156. Ok you win?I congrats

 

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Original post)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 09:35 AM

130. Wiki article, for reference

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown#Department_of_Justice_investigation

OP, next time you cite something from Wiki, please provide the link/URL. It makes it easier for the rest of us, thanks.

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Response to steve2470 (Reply #130)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 03:20 PM

138. While I thank you for the heads-up on that was it really that hard to find?

 

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Response to Ohioblue22 (Reply #138)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 03:23 PM

139. no, just a courtesy request, that's all nt

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Response to steve2470 (Reply #139)

Mon Aug 1, 2016, 04:12 PM

140. Ok thanks... I'll keep it in mind

 

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