Fri Jul 15, 2016, 09:41 PM

athena (4,187 posts)

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This message was self-deleted by its author (athena) on Sat Jul 16, 2016, 10:06 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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51 replies	Author	Time	Post
This message was self-deleted by its author (Original post)	athena	Jul 2016	OP
Sure smells like Gollum instigated it.	roamer65	Jul 2016	#1
Exactly.	athena	Jul 2016	#2
Can Trump learn it in a presidency	greiner3	Jul 2016	#18
Don't give him any ideas!	forest444	Jul 2016	#20
Well, it'll be very interesting to see what Erdogan does in	Hortensis	Jul 2016	#34
"Turkey removes more than 2,700 judges	Hortensis	Jul 2016	#49
Completely plausible	eissa	Jul 2016	#3
This is the fourth military coup in Turkey in a century.	NuclearDem	Jul 2016	#4
I am perfectly aware of that.	athena	Jul 2016	#7
So....you'd think they be better at it, if it was real.	Joe the Revelator	Jul 2016	#9
Funny. I was thinking there was something fishy going on.	ananda	Jul 2016	#5
I thought only RW conspiracy folks	TeddyR	Jul 2016	#6
I am not one for conspiracy theories	athena	Jul 2016	#10
Apologies	TeddyR	Jul 2016	#11
I'll be curious to see what happens in the next few months.	athena	Jul 2016	#14
I was surprised that American media seemingly	Hortensis	Jul 2016	#36
U.S. media eliminated all foreign correspondents years ago.	yardwork	Jul 2016	#42
Well, I share your assessment of much of the	Hortensis	Jul 2016	#44
FFS. The "conspiracy" is that for-profit media eliminated all journalistic integrity years ago.	yardwork	Jul 2016	#46
Sorry, believe this results from something else,	Hortensis	Jul 2016	#47
HA, there are plenty of CT'ers here.	Ace Rothstein	Jul 2016	#17
Please	athena	Jul 2016	#19
Of course this is a conspiracy theory. You're claiming a conspiracy to bomb their parliament	muriel_volestrangler	Jul 2016	#25
I suggest you read up on the recent history of Turkish politics.	athena	Jul 2016	#26
Are you saying those weren't conspiracies?	muriel_volestrangler	Jul 2016	#30
You're the one arguing that no conspiracy could possibly happen in Turkey.	athena	Jul 2016	#33
No, I never said anything like "no conspiracy could possibly happen in Turkey"	muriel_volestrangler	Jul 2016	#35
First, you call me a "conspiracy theorist",	athena	Jul 2016	#38
The Harvard expert says it's not a hoax	muriel_volestrangler	Jul 2016	#41
This message was self-deleted by its author	Else You Are Mad	Jul 2016	#27
I'm not dismissing the coup. I didn't mention Sandy Hook truthers or anti-vaxxers, either	muriel_volestrangler	Jul 2016	#31
Sorry.	Else You Are Mad	Jul 2016	#32
Turkish history is one big conspiracy theory.	AngryAmish	Jul 2016	#39
There are videos of dead people laying on the streets	PersonNumber503602	Jul 2016	#8
Yes, I am.	athena	Jul 2016	#12
Yep could be False Flag Coup engineered by Erdogan to smoke out traitors and consolidate control.	yellowcanine	Jul 2016	#13
He would have been arrested.	athena	Jul 2016	#15
It is really odd.	a la izquierda	Jul 2016	#16
He would never have flown back into Turkey	Abq_Sarah	Jul 2016	#23
Looked fishy to me too, athena	ReRe	Jul 2016	#21
you should be on TV! you beat the so called experts on	Gabi Hayes	Jul 2016	#22
You mean the experts have started talking about this possibility?	athena	Jul 2016	#28
If so, Obama and Kerry fell right into the trap	Democat	Jul 2016	#24
Post removed	Post removed	Jul 2016	#29
"The Daily Stormer" is a neo-Nazi site. Remove your link to it at once.	muriel_volestrangler	Jul 2016	#40
Was this a DU regular?	TacoD	Jul 2016	#50
It was the thread starter (nt)	muriel_volestrangler	Jul 2016	#51
This message was self-deleted by its author	yardwork	Jul 2016	#45
you have linked to a Neo nazi HATE site	etherealtruth	Jul 2016	#48
I have my suspicions as well...	BooScout	Jul 2016	#37
I would think that too except in the very beginning, the countries media & internet was taken first.	Sunlei	Jul 2016	#43

Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 09:43 PM

roamer65 (34,055 posts)

1. Sure smells like Gollum instigated it.

Now he "cleanse" the military as he wants.

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Response to roamer65 (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 09:45 PM

athena (4,187 posts)

2. Exactly.

It's like the Reichstag fire.

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Response to athena (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:43 PM

greiner3 (5,214 posts)

18. Can Trump learn it in a presidency

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Response to greiner3 (Reply #18)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 12:11 AM

forest444 (5,902 posts)

20. Don't give him any ideas!

Although such things are a little more up the Bushes' alley.

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Response to athena (Reply #2)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 07:54 AM

Hortensis (55,757 posts)

34. Well, it'll be very interesting to see what Erdogan does in

response, although taking advantage of this to push things much farther wouldn't prove it was engineered of course.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #34)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 09:31 AM

Hortensis (55,757 posts)

49. "Turkey removes more than 2,700 judges

following coup attempt" Reuters

Vows retribution.
Blames exiles cleric, who denies.
Considering bringing back death penalty to execute those involved.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 09:52 PM

eissa (4,201 posts)

3. Completely plausible

And now all he has to do is accuse his opponents of treason, and wipe them out while consolidating even more power.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 09:54 PM

NuclearDem (16,184 posts)

4. This is the fourth military coup in Turkey in a century.

Sorry, but this ridiculous nonsense that this is somehow a false-flag operation carried out by Erdogan is just completely ignorant of Turkish history. The military and Islamist sections of the Turkish people have always been at odds with each other, and Erdogan has definitely leaned on the latter side (I mean, hell, Turkey's basically supporting ISIS behind everyone's back); the military has largely seen itself as the heir and guardian of Ataturk's secular revolution in the early 20th century, so a military coup is usually indicative of these two distinct parts of Turkish society fighting it out.

That this is poorly-planned doesn't mean its some kind of false flag.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:09 PM

athena (4,187 posts)

7. I am perfectly aware of that.

But the last one was in 1997, almost twenty years ago, and was a "soft" coup, in which they banned a political party and didn't actually take control of government. And no coup has ever failed. Turkey has the second largest military in NATO after the U.S. When they carry out a coup, it does not disintegrate in a few hours.

Furthermore, the Turkish military is not as powerful as it once was. Erdogan has already purged it of its staunchest secular generals through a series of sham trials.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:13 PM

Joe the Revelator (14,915 posts)

9. So....you'd think they be better at it, if it was real.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:04 PM

ananda (27,569 posts)

5. Funny. I was thinking there was something fishy going on.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Erdogan was behind it.

It now allows him to solidify his rightwing agenda.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:08 PM

TeddyR (2,493 posts)

6. I thought only RW conspiracy folks

Believed in false flags. Sandy Hook deniers come to mind.

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Response to TeddyR (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:14 PM

athena (4,187 posts)

10. I am not one for conspiracy theories

but we're talking about Turkey here. If you had followed Turkish politics as long as I have, you would know that it's extremely difficult to know, when you hear a piece of news coming from Turkey, whether it's real. In the last decade or so, Erdogan and his AKP fired all the reporters and columnists who dared to criticize him. As a result, there is no fact-checking or any kind of critical thinking in the media. They all repeat the government's talking points.

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Response to athena (Reply #10)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:15 PM

TeddyR (2,493 posts)

11. Apologies

Then. And I'm not defending Erdogan

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Response to TeddyR (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:23 PM

athena (4,187 posts)

14. I'll be curious to see what happens in the next few months.

I'm afraid Erdogan will achieve his goal of replacing Turkey's system of government with a presidential one that gives him real power.

It's just an idea, and it could be wrong, but the more I watch and read, the more plausible it seems.

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Response to athena (Reply #14)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 07:56 AM

Hortensis (55,757 posts)

36. I was surprised that American media seemingly

had no information sources in the capital.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #36)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 08:55 AM

yardwork (56,068 posts)

42. U.S. media eliminated all foreign correspondents years ago.

We don't have a news media anymore. We have infotainment.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #42)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 09:00 AM

Hortensis (55,757 posts)

44. Well, I share your assessment of much of the

news media, but no journalists, no calls, no cell phone pictures. Complete communications lockdown on the capital?

Amazingly, for at least 2 hours either MSNBC or CNN, forget which now, didn't have anyone to translate Turkish. I could come up with someone sooner from here in rural North Georgia.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #44)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 09:02 AM

yardwork (56,068 posts)

46. FFS. The "conspiracy" is that for-profit media eliminated all journalistic integrity years ago.

That's what happened, and this is one result.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #46)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 09:03 AM

Hortensis (55,757 posts)

47. Sorry, believe this results from something else,

and the discussion is the Turkish coup.

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Response to TeddyR (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:42 PM

Ace Rothstein (2,757 posts)

17. HA, there are plenty of CT'ers here.

Anytime there is a mass shooting or terror attack and one of the sacred cows of the left is the perpetrator, a few posters will always claim false flag.

Not saying that is what happened with this one though.

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Response to Ace Rothstein (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:49 PM

athena (4,187 posts)

19. Please

don't put me in the same basket as those conspiracy theorists. Just voicing an opinion that something smells fishy does not make one a conspiracy theorist.

The important point is that we're not talking about the U.S. here. If something like this happened in the U.S., there would be no reason to doubt it because someone involved would talk, and the true story would get out. But Turkey does not have a free press. There is therefore no investigative journalism there. If you follow Turkish politics (and speak Turkish, as I do), you will find that it's almost impossible to know what is real, and what is not, in Turkey. The news from there is so strange, and so obscurely reported, that despite speaking and reading Turkish, I often have to rely on U.S. and European news organizations to figure out what is really going on.

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Response to athena (Reply #19)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 04:54 AM

muriel_volestrangler (99,241 posts)

25. Of course this is a conspiracy theory. You're claiming a conspiracy to bomb their parliament

shoot down a helicopter, kill about 100 people, wound over 1000, and arrest over 1000 more, and pretend it's a coup. That takes a huge cover-up, and thousands of illegal actions by many people. You are describing a deadly, illegal conspiracy at the heart of government.

You are, by definition, a conspiracy theorist.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #25)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 06:52 AM

athena (4,187 posts)

26. I suggest you read up on the recent history of Turkish politics.

You can start here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susurluk_scandal

or here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_%28allegation%29

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Response to athena (Reply #26)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 07:32 AM

muriel_volestrangler (99,241 posts)

30. Are you saying those weren't conspiracies?

Are you saying that if a conspiracy happens in Turkey, then it's not really a conspiracy?

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #30)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 07:45 AM

athena (4,187 posts)

33. You're the one arguing that no conspiracy could possibly happen in Turkey.

You're the one saying that if there is an apparent military coup in Turkey, then it must be real, and anyone suggesting that it looks fishy is a conspiracy theorist of the type that denies Sandy Hook.

Before you attack and insult someone, first educate yourself about the topic.

ETA: I suspect you will go back to the dictionary definition of "conspiracy theory". You might want to check this out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

The term conspiracy theory has derogatory connotations, suggesting explanations that invoke conspiracies without warrant, often producing hypotheses that contradict the prevailing understanding of historical events or simple facts.

My post does not "contradict the prevailing understanding of historical events or simple facts." On the contrary, assuming that this is a real coup orchestrated by the military is what contradicts recent political history and the situation in Turkey.

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Response to athena (Reply #33)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 07:54 AM

muriel_volestrangler (99,241 posts)

35. No, I never said anything like "no conspiracy could possibly happen in Turkey"

You've made that up. What I've said is that you are putting forward a theory that a massive conspiracy by the Turkish government to bomb its own parliament, shoot down one of its own helicopters, kill a hundred of its own people, and injure over a thousand, has just happened. Therefore, you are, by the definition of 'conspiracy', 'theory', and 'conspiracy theory', putting forward a conspiracy theory.

I have to point out to you that Wikipedia is not a dictionary. But you are indeed "producing hypotheses that contradict the prevailing understanding of historical events or simple facts". What do you think the people who were killed were doing? Were they committing suicide by pretending to mount a coup?

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #35)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 08:09 AM

athena (4,187 posts)

38. First, you call me a "conspiracy theorist",

then you claim that "conspiracy theorist" just means someone who says something is a conspiracy. That's like calling someone a pig, and then saying that a pig is just a friendly animal.

Since you seem to think you know so much more about Turkey than I do, I suggest that we just wait and see how things play out. It took years before the prevailing view on Ergenekon changed. It may be years before the prevailing view on this "coup" changes as well.

By the way, you should take a look at this post of mine further down the thread. I would be pretty amused to see you argue that the Harvard expert on Turkey who is making the same point I am is not a conspiracy theorist but that I am, or, alternatively, that his views also "contradict the prevailing understanding of historical events or simple facts".

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Response to athena (Reply #38)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 08:36 AM

muriel_volestrangler (99,241 posts)

41. The Harvard expert says it's not a hoax

He says the conspiracy theory doesn't ring true:

The coup attempt is very puzzling. For one thing, it seems to have been very poorly planned. For example, most TV channels were left operating and there does not seem to have been an attempt to take Erdogan in. And as I write this, it seemed to be collapsing. Second, it is not clear who would benefit from a coup. The military is no longer the secularist stronghold with a strong esprit de corps and sense of mission it once was. (Hence the widespread theory in Turkey that this was a coup staged by Erdogan himself, designed to pave the way for an Erdogan dictatorship. But this doesn’t quite ring true either, in light of Erdogan’s recent attempts to mend fences with Russia and Israel to strengthen the economy. He must know that even a failed coup would wreak havoc with the economy.)

http://www.vox.com/2016/7/15/12204368/turkey-coup-expert

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #25)

Else You Are Mad This message was self-deleted by its author.

Response to Else You Are Mad (Reply #27)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 07:37 AM

muriel_volestrangler (99,241 posts)

31. I'm not dismissing the coup. I didn't mention Sandy Hook truthers or anti-vaxxers, either

It's athena who is dismissing the coup. I don't say that's on a par with Sandy Hook truthers or anti-vaxxers, but it is a claim that a government has engineered a massive conspiracy, involving over a hundred deaths and thousands of injuries and arrests, to fool its public and get a political advantage.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #31)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 07:40 AM

Else You Are Mad (3,040 posts)

32. Sorry.

The reply was meant for TeddyR

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Response to TeddyR (Reply #6)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 08:18 AM

AngryAmish (25,704 posts)

39. Turkish history is one big conspiracy theory.

Byzantium is Byzantine.

For example, who would have thought that a group with many converted Jewish Moslems meeting secretly in Masonic lodges would overthrow the Sultan....except that is exactly what ended the Ottoman Empire in the 20th century.

Or a bunch of sneaky Islamist Turks would be the leading charter school operator in the US? Yet that is exactly true.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:12 PM

PersonNumber503602 (1,134 posts)

8. There are videos of dead people laying on the streets

Are you saying they killed innocent people all for show?

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Response to PersonNumber503602 (Reply #8)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:16 PM

athena (4,187 posts)

12. Yes, I am.

Erdogan is that desperate.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/05/world/europe/turkey-erdogan-new-enemies-frustrating-friends.html

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:20 PM

yellowcanine (35,522 posts)

13. Yep could be False Flag Coup engineered by Erdogan to smoke out traitors and consolidate control.

I think Erdogan would have gone into hiding until the shooting stopped if it were a real coup. He has made no secret of his movements.

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Response to yellowcanine (Reply #13)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:30 PM

athena (4,187 posts)

15. He would have been arrested.

The first thing the military would have done is arrest him.

I agree that this will give Erdogan a perfect excuse to investigate and jail any member of the military who is not 100% behind him.

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Response to athena (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:37 PM

a la izquierda (11,673 posts)

16. It is really odd.

Now, I don´t know much about coups around the world except in Latin America (I have a PhD in Latin American history). Generally speaking, the leader being overthrown is detained (or if the shit is really about to hit the fan, commits suicide like Salvador Allende in Chile).
Hmm...this will be interesting to watch. Scary. I have three good friends who live in Turkey.

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Response to athena (Reply #15)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 01:20 AM

Abq_Sarah (2,883 posts)

23. He would never have flown back into Turkey

The reports said the military had control of the airport and had shut down all flights in and out. What are the chances Erdogan would have even been given permission to land knowing he'd be arrested... if it were legit?

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Response to athena (Original post)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 12:12 AM

ReRe (10,597 posts)

21. Looked fishy to me too, athena

Just too orchestrated. Especially when they marched the military dudes out from behind the tanks with their hands in the air. I thought "ruh roh...if this is a REAL coupe, Erdy will have those dudes shot down right on TV," to make a example of them. Didn't happen. Duh?

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Response to athena (Original post)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 12:26 AM

Gabi Hayes (28,795 posts)

22. you should be on TV! you beat the so called experts on

TV. I was watching, and your post precedes that sudden conclusion the commentators on CNN and Msnbc reached, if I remember the time frame. I'm almost certain nobody brought this up on those channels previous to your post.

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Response to Gabi Hayes (Reply #22)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 07:14 AM

athena (4,187 posts)

28. You mean the experts have started talking about this possibility?

That's great, because it means perhaps a reporter will investigate it further (although, given the muzzling of even the foreign press in Turkey, I'm not sure how they would investigate it). Anyway, after I posted, I found another discussion site where someone had the same idea a few hours earlier. If you know about the recent political situation in Turkey, it's not an unlikely conclusion to reach. I was just surprised by how credulous all the media "experts" were. Frankly, some of them were saying things that have not been true for at least a decade.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 01:41 AM

Democat (11,617 posts)

24. If so, Obama and Kerry fell right into the trap

Giving Erdogan even more power.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Post removed

Response to Post removed (Reply #29)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 08:30 AM

muriel_volestrangler (99,241 posts)

40. "The Daily Stormer" is a neo-Nazi site. Remove your link to it at once.

And when you've done that, consider the kind of people who think along the same lines as you.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #40)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 09:36 AM

TacoD (581 posts)

50. Was this a DU regular?

Too bad about the loss of transparency that the recent site changes have introduced.

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Response to TacoD (Reply #50)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 09:38 AM

muriel_volestrangler (99,241 posts)

51. It was the thread starter (nt)

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Response to Post removed (Reply #29)

yardwork This message was self-deleted by its author.

Response to Post removed (Reply #29)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 09:04 AM

etherealtruth (22,165 posts)

48. you have linked to a Neo nazi HATE site

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Response to athena (Original post)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 08:00 AM

BooScout (10,406 posts)

37. I have my suspicions as well...

...and I ordinarily stay well away from conspiracy theories.

I've heard several analysts here on UK tv float this idea and it is also making the rounds of social media inside Turkey from what I understand.

It is not as far fetched as it sounds on the surface and if it's true....I suspect we may discover so in the coming days.

Or my suspicions could be totally wrong, lol

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Response to athena (Original post)

Sat Jul 16, 2016, 08:55 AM

Sunlei (22,651 posts)

43. I would think that too except in the very beginning, the countries media & internet was taken first.

The media take over was very coordinated, the 'new medias' delivered messages well prepared.

IMO, another country is behind this perhaps with some funding, backing & push for major destabilizing attacks like the airport attack. Turkey has the 3rd largest airport in the world.

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