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Heeeeers Johnny

(423 posts)
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:24 AM Jun 2016

Article: I was fired from my internship for writing a proposal for a more flexible dress code

At least the special snowflakes learned something about life in the real world from their brief time at this company...

I was able to get a summer internship at a company that does work in the industry I want to work in after I graduate. Even though the division I was hired to work in doesn’t deal with clients or customers, there still was a very strict dress code. I felt the dress code was overly strict but I wasn’t going to say anything, until I noticed one of the workers always wore flat shoes that were made from a fabric other than leather, or running shoes, even though both of these things were contrary to the dress code.

I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it. I soon found out that many of the other interns felt the same way, and the ones who asked their managers about it were told the same thing as me. We decided to write a proposal stating why we should be allowed someone leeway under the dress code. We accompanied the proposal with a petition, signed by all of the interns (except for one who declined to sign it) and gave it to our managers to consider. Our proposal requested that we also be allowed to wear running shoes and non leather flats, as well as sandals (not flip-flops though) and other non-dress shoes that would fit under a more business casual dress code. It was mostly about the footwear, but we also incorporated a request that we not have to wear suits and/or blazers in favor of a more casual, but still professional dress code.

The next day, all of us who signed the petition were called into a meeting where we thought our proposal would be discussed. Instead, we were informed that due to our “unprofessional” behavior, we were being let go from our internships. We were told to hand in our ID badges and to gather our things and leave the property ASAP.


More @ http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/i-was-fired-from-my-internship-for-writing-a-proposal-for-a-more-flexible-dress-code.html
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Article: I was fired from my internship for writing a proposal for a more flexible dress code (Original Post) Heeeeers Johnny Jun 2016 OP
I feel bad metroins Jun 2016 #1
I guess they lean pretty quick when you work for somebody else snooper2 Jun 2016 #10
We coddle them to much and can't handle the real world yeoman6987 Jun 2016 #47
yup. This has gone too far Albertoo Jun 2016 #190
As an intern, you are there to learn about the job and industry, not change the company policy tonyt53 Jun 2016 #2
And learn they did! The hard way. WillowTree Jul 2016 #226
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #3
I particularly love where the kid talks about how he/she "should have been told" why Squinch Jun 2016 #17
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #20
In the article it says that the other employee was a returning soldier who had lost her leg. Squinch Jun 2016 #23
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #40
Typically, exemptions to such policy can be health related. MohRokTah Jun 2016 #192
Exactly. In the case of this letter, ADA tammywammy Jun 2016 #200
The employee who was exempt was exempt because they were a returning soldier who had lost a leg. Squinch Jun 2016 #220
The part that said she had to start crippling herself to comply with a stupid footwear dress code Warpy Jun 2016 #189
I can't wear heels anymore. phylny Jun 2016 #205
The article didn't say anything about closed toe shoes with two inch heels. Squinch Jun 2016 #212
No flats, no open shoes (sandals), nothing but leather... Warpy Jun 2016 #223
Ive seen people wear really low blocky heels- like 3/4-1" bettyellen Jul 2016 #235
The petition specified that they wanted to be able to wear "non-leather flats." That Squinch Jul 2016 #245
This needs more information. Initech Jun 2016 #4
No. It doesn't. None of that matters ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #11
+10000000000 EllieBC Jun 2016 #16
doesn't really matter, probably sales or banking of some sort... snooper2 Jun 2016 #12
No need more information. Drahthaardogs Jun 2016 #59
"Earned the right to be heard" FixTheProblem Jul 2016 #252
Well, I think you should at least know where the bathrooms are Drahthaardogs Jul 2016 #262
No it doesn't! WillowTree Jul 2016 #229
Then how about some more butter? Initech Jul 2016 #230
"I was able to get a summer internship at a company that does work in the industry..." jberryhill Jun 2016 #5
Lol. So much this. nt B2G Jun 2016 #8
Oh, my best laugh of the day! LisaM Jun 2016 #136
It's actually more like a right wing fantasy story. hunter Jun 2016 #150
"Article: Intern learns valuable lesson". n/t PoliticAverse Jun 2016 #6
No. I doubt they learned a single thing ... beyond, of course ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #7
Too bad someone like you wasn't there to tell them this when the issue was first raised. Yo_Mama Jun 2016 #54
LOL ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #56
Well yeah, because there's a whole world out there. It would be a bummer if we peaked at 20. Yo_Mama Jun 2016 #58
Not particularly ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #60
U.S.A. workers are so pathetic. hunter Jun 2016 #9
I don't understand your point? ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #13
What sort of business considers intern talk about shoes a threat? hunter Jun 2016 #30
When they start using up more resources than they can possibly generate, Yo_Mama Jun 2016 #57
I wouldn't consider it a threat whatthehey Jun 2016 #62
The thing that terrified management is that the interns organized. hunter Jun 2016 #65
I am not psychic enough to know they were terrified whatthehey Jun 2016 #73
It's not that they were organized tammywammy Jun 2016 #76
I'd say it was their manager wasting time. hunter Jun 2016 #153
I agree with you to a point. rockfordfile Jun 2016 #83
I have interns, and if they did this, they would be fired, too obamanut2012 Jun 2016 #114
It's difficult to see how a good manager would let this petty office drama go so far. hunter Jun 2016 #149
"a bum"?? philosslayer Jul 2016 #231
I was trying to write a story like a Trump voter would. hunter Jul 2016 #234
+1 leftstreet Jun 2016 #120
"terrified" is not the same thing as "annoyed." NuclearDem Jun 2016 #126
Management is not "terrified" of anyone they can fire in an instant. Binkie The Clown Jun 2016 #134
I don't think it's a real story. If it is, it reflects badly on management. hunter Jun 2016 #155
But, it's on the Internet. It MUST be true!!! n/t Binkie The Clown Jun 2016 #194
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #43
What the fuck are you talking about? hunter Jun 2016 #61
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #66
They are. This nation will fold to the first fascist who comes along. hunter Jun 2016 #67
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #70
I voted for Clinton in the primary. hunter Jun 2016 #80
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #92
That's not true rockfordfile Jun 2016 #82
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #91
This is DU. Optimism is for the stupid sheeple. Throd Jun 2016 #98
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #100
Oh, I'm pretty sure a fair number of working class Hortensis Jun 2016 #145
I think you are on to something d_r Jul 2016 #233
lol, yes, correct. closeupready Jun 2016 #109
I think we can crash land this fossil fueled civilization and walk away. hunter Jun 2016 #160
You seem to be making a broadbased leftynyc Jun 2016 #46
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #94
I don't think that has anything to do with my point leftynyc Jun 2016 #95
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #96
I see no reason to assume these interns are Hortensis Jun 2016 #154
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #156
THIS kid was talking about himself only, however. Hortensis Jun 2016 #163
"snowflakes"? Wow. That is offensive as hell. Buzz Clik Jun 2016 #14
Not really. This kid thought he/she could dictate terms to the company when he/she didn't Squinch Jun 2016 #18
But it's okay ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #22
And he/she didn't have to do any more nasty work-ey jobs all summer long. Squinch Jun 2016 #24
Exactly. cwydro Jun 2016 #142
I'm hoping people like my parents were there instead. EllieBC Jun 2016 #26
LOL ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #33
I got fired when I was 16 from my first job. EllieBC Jun 2016 #90
My first "real" job was working the stock room of a men's clothing store ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #97
Not if your boss was abusive; THEN, I'd say, fuck it. closeupready Jun 2016 #108
Yes ... Insisting that a young adult (child) own up to their decision ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #113
I don't know, you tell us. I sure wouldn't have done that. closeupready Jun 2016 #122
I'll tell you ... There is nothing wrong with his insisting that I own my decision to quit ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #124
If your boss was abusive and he told you to subject yourself to that abuse further, closeupready Jun 2016 #129
I said the boss was an ass (in the eyes of a 15 year old) ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #135
Okay, you know what, I'm not here to pick a fight with either one of you. closeupready Jun 2016 #137
Sounds like you may be blowing up the "abusive" part Hortensis Jun 2016 #159
I think the father taught him a lesson in responsibility. You don't just walk off a job pnwmom Jun 2016 #128
You do if the workplace is abusive, or unhealthy. closeupready Jun 2016 #130
Not if you're a responsible adult. You at the very least tender your resignation, pnwmom Jun 2016 #132
Nope. Methinks you protest too much. You weren't there; I wasn't there. closeupready Jun 2016 #133
1SBM WAS there and he clearly thinks his father did the right thing pnwmom Jun 2016 #141
See my reply to him above, and with that, I wish you a good evening. closeupready Jun 2016 #147
It's called adult. You do things even if they are horrible and awful. alphafemale Jun 2016 #191
It's adult to go back to your abuser and explain why you left? closeupready Jul 2016 #225
Absolutely. You inform them you are quitting. astral Jul 2016 #246
My parents are both "You broke it, you fix it," almost to the extreme. hunter Jun 2016 #164
I might die before 40, but I'll be able to say I was never anyone's slave FixTheProblem Jul 2016 #257
Yes, really. You're just wrong. Proud Public Servant Jun 2016 #27
OH, for fuck's sake. Such drama. The kid was an intern in a job with a dress code. Such Squinch Jun 2016 #29
And the kid did what, exactly? Proud Public Servant Jun 2016 #34
I'd have booted them too. Mostly for stupidity (making demands in a situation in which Squinch Jun 2016 #38
Me too -- I have never had interns do anything this ridiculous obamanut2012 Jun 2016 #118
How about just saying "No, that's not the way we do things here, now get back to smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #168
They DID do that obamanut2012 Jun 2016 #175
You can tell who read the article.. and who didn't.. n/t X_Digger Jun 2016 #208
They did that. It wasn't good enough for the kid. So the kid took work time and Squinch Jun 2016 #209
Then you'd be a bad manager, wasting company time on trivial shit. hunter Jun 2016 #170
I'd see it as saving myself and others from having to waste company time on trivial shit. Squinch Jun 2016 #210
They asked and were told no. Then they created a petition. tammywammy Jun 2016 #42
So? You've always taken no for an answer? Proud Public Servant Jun 2016 #48
Firing seems justified tammywammy Jun 2016 #85
Quite frankly anything is a firing offense the first 90 days. Anything! yeoman6987 Jun 2016 #51
Interns have even less protection Proud Liberal Dem Jun 2016 #68
No, the intern purposefully organized a group to put pressure on management pnwmom Jun 2016 #131
As a business owner... Abq_Sarah Jun 2016 #201
The one who started the petition did go to his/her manager and ask for a revision. The person Squinch Jun 2016 #211
The First Amendment only applies to the government. To some degree, to most union memberships. Yo_Mama Jun 2016 #55
I'm not saying it's a 1st amendment issue Proud Public Servant Jun 2016 #79
There is a difference between questioning authority and just being a brat... Drahthaardogs Jun 2016 #206
THIS!!!!!!! Squinch Jun 2016 #214
A private company is not bound by the First Amendment PJMcK Jun 2016 #78
See my response Proud Public Servant Jun 2016 #81
lolz obamanut2012 Jun 2016 #115
Seriously, I can't even believe this is DU! smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #167
I'm really glad to hear this Proud Public Servant Jun 2016 #179
Really, what is going on when DU sides with the "Man"? smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #193
Well said Iris Jul 2016 #238
Free clue: the constitution and bill of rights doesn't apply to your employer*. X_Digger Jun 2016 #207
Yes. Iris Jun 2016 #217
No sympathy here, sorry. closeupready Jun 2016 #15
After you made a money-saving proposal, you might have tried it splat Jun 2016 #19
And, even then ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #25
I'm going to stick up for the intern here Proud Public Servant Jun 2016 #21
I would feel sorry too, except she said she had already asked her manager about it Arkansas Granny Jun 2016 #28
That's where I disagree Proud Public Servant Jun 2016 #41
Bingo. Iris Jun 2016 #219
As someone who hires at least one intern per summer, and usually two, I disagree. tonyt53 Jun 2016 #31
I can easily imagine Proud Public Servant Jun 2016 #44
The entire intern scheme is a scam for wealthier people to put their own kids ahead. hunter Jun 2016 #36
Not true Proud Public Servant Jun 2016 #45
In Germany apprentices are paid as full time workers... hunter Jun 2016 #49
Agree 100% (nt) Proud Public Servant Jun 2016 #77
same here in Sweden. I had a very well paying intern position AntiBank Jun 2016 #119
Here in the US, a state-registered apprentice is paid while they work. tonyt53 Jun 2016 #152
We pay our interns between 16-18 dollars an hour etherealtruth Jun 2016 #158
Engineering industry here tammywammy Jun 2016 #165
Civil and environmental engineering, for me etherealtruth Jun 2016 #172
It's everything that's not civil or environmental. Heh tammywammy Jun 2016 #182
I am strictly on the environmental side ... etherealtruth Jun 2016 #187
My company pays interns $18 an hour. They earn a living wage. nt hack89 Jun 2016 #102
Are the shoe requirements reasonable? hunter Jun 2016 #140
We require business casual in the office hack89 Jun 2016 #144
Which is entirely reasonable. n/t Aerows Jul 2016 #264
My internship paid $25 an hour... belcffub Jun 2016 #169
Who are you people? hunter Jun 2016 #174
Hi I'm chris belcffub Jun 2016 #180
I'm in a situation like this. christx30 Jun 2016 #148
+1000 Agreed smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #171
Ask a Manager is one of my favorite blogs! tammywammy Jun 2016 #32
I can't believe unpaid labor (or poorly paid labor) is given a dress code fasttense Jun 2016 #35
Not all interns are unpaid labor. tammywammy Jun 2016 #39
Rediculus, if they do the same job they should be paid the same. N/T fasttense Jun 2016 #111
They don't do the same job. tammywammy Jun 2016 #143
They don't do the same job as regular hires. They are baby employees given an opportunity to learn Hekate Jun 2016 #162
In What World Would An Intern Know Enough. . . ProfessorGAC Jul 2016 #241
Go look up the US DOL requirements for unpaid internships R.A. Ganoush Jun 2016 #50
So, low pay and militaristic working conditions are what America is all about? N/T fasttense Jun 2016 #112
Hopefuly the strawman helped you come up with that one, because R.A. Ganoush Jun 2016 #146
Only in some states are these so called protections for interns in place fasttense Jul 2016 #240
They're in place in all 50 states R.A. Ganoush Jul 2016 #242
My company pays interns $18 an hour. hack89 Jun 2016 #103
Why in the world shouldn't interns have a dress code? Orrex Jun 2016 #105
You are snowflake enabler. B2G Jun 2016 #107
Oh for crying out loud. NuclearDem Jun 2016 #117
I feel like I have stumbled on to the wrong board. smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #173
+1,000 n/t LarryNM Jun 2016 #181
This intern learned a valuable lesson. NaturalHigh Jun 2016 #37
I learned a lot from being fired. Throd Jun 2016 #53
Years ago, I met a naturalized American woman, a postwar German ex-pat. closeupready Jun 2016 #86
So did I PJMcK Jun 2016 #176
I should confess too astral Jul 2016 #247
The manager wanted to fire that intern anyway taught_me_patience Jun 2016 #52
How did you reach that conclusion? PJMcK Jul 2016 #256
My experience is that you don't ask managers for approval of something like that, most are going to Hoyt Jun 2016 #63
This is part of the reason for H1Bs alc Jun 2016 #64
I've heard that applied to other industries as well. EllieBC Jun 2016 #71
Isn't it funny - interns from South Asia dress to the nines, even for free, and closeupready Jun 2016 #87
I find the same to be true with my college students. In general, though not always of course, tblue37 Jun 2016 #110
This must have been the intern's first job. What a privileged life to be that old .... Hekate Jun 2016 #69
It was her first job. She says that in her letter. EllieBC Jun 2016 #72
Yeah, I read the whole thing at the link after my post. Jeez. I worked 20 hrs/week.... Hekate Jun 2016 #99
They knew the terms of engagement when they accepted. B2G Jun 2016 #74
somehow I suspect there is more to this story, though a workplace petition is bush-league nt geek tragedy Jun 2016 #75
very strict dress code SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2016 #84
lol closeupready Jun 2016 #88
+1,000 n/t LarryNM Jun 2016 #177
I really like your reply Jim Beard Jun 2016 #183
No shit! smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #213
Dress for the job you want, not the job you have. cbdo2007 Jun 2016 #89
It really does matter SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2016 #93
Right. It needn't be expensive to do so, either. Hekate Jun 2016 #104
Dress for success PJMcK Jul 2016 #253
It is ok to ask your manager, but when told no, then just drop it and move on to uppityperson Jun 2016 #101
Bosses usually don't like having their time wasted. AngryOldDem Jun 2016 #106
The bosses who respond to the letter make a number of excellent points. tblue37 Jun 2016 #116
I read Ask a Manager every day tammywammy Jun 2016 #157
Glad to read so many think He/She handled it wrong. I thought with so many anti-corporate types here Hoyt Jun 2016 #121
I have interns, and if they did this, they would be fired, too obamanut2012 Jun 2016 #123
I've always had a simple work philosophy: I'll push the envelope until the envelope pushes back. brooklynite Jun 2016 #125
In this case, the envelope came with a pink slip enclosed. SwankyXomb Jun 2016 #151
No, the envelope pushed back and the Interns decided to push it again. brooklynite Jun 2016 #166
It was an ill-considered move on the part of the inters, but the comments here DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2016 #127
We have had generally good results with interns etherealtruth Jun 2016 #161
No one is suggesting that young people don't compare favorably to older people. Squinch Jun 2016 #216
Apologies--I hadn't realized you were the spokesperson for those who penned the responses I read. DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2016 #222
I never said I was. But please, do show me one post that suggests young people do not compare Squinch Jul 2016 #244
"I may only be an intern but by gosh and by golly, you're doing it WRONG and things WILL change!" cherokeeprogressive Jun 2016 #138
My niece has had 12 jobs... meaculpa2011 Jun 2016 #139
Lol. When I was hired out of graduate school I was warned to nottry to change anything for 2 years aikoaiko Jun 2016 #178
That is really, really sound advice obamanut2012 Jun 2016 #188
'Trouble makers' elleng Jun 2016 #184
I agree with you 100% Jim Beard Jun 2016 #196
"special snowflakes" derp Warren DeMontague Jun 2016 #185
Good Post, Thanks! Jim Beard Jun 2016 #197
Yep. It's the truth. Warren DeMontague Jun 2016 #199
10 years ago there was a BBC documentary about the history of video games... Odin2005 Jun 2016 #204
Exactly. Warren DeMontague Jul 2016 #237
Yep, that was my guess, too. Odin2005 Jun 2016 #203
I would replace the intern with someone truly motivated to work at the company Haveadream Jun 2016 #186
They are lucky to find out early they wouldn't want to work for that company anyway. Jim Beard Jun 2016 #195
Remember when women were expected to dress feminine and sexy in the office? dilby Jun 2016 #198
Wow, nice ageist slur against young people. Odin2005 Jun 2016 #202
The lack of critical thinking on this thread is mind-boggling. Iris Jun 2016 #221
let us explore this SoLeftIAmRight Jul 2016 #224
Deutchland, Deutchland, Uber Alles! smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #215
Really? You're going to go Godwin on this? On THIS? smh. Squinch Jun 2016 #218
I don't know whether to laugh my ass off or be terrified. I honestly don't. hunter Jul 2016 #227
You're comparing an internship at a private company with being a Nazi soldier? (n/t) PJMcK Jul 2016 #258
Yep. On DU, we actually are told that an office dress code is the same as Nazism. Disgusting. Squinch Jul 2016 #260
They were fired because their group gathering was way too much like a union The Second Stone Jul 2016 #228
Message to Millennials. RandySF Jul 2016 #232
A petition at work, by interns??? romanic Jul 2016 #236
Special snowflakes got their first taste of corporate culture. GOLGO 13 Jul 2016 #239
My "superiors" at work used to make fun or me for wearing sneakers with my suit from Ilsa Jul 2016 #243
I used to do that, shoes for office, shoes for running about. Not in NYC, but similar circumstances. hunter Jul 2016 #249
This message was self-deleted by its author LanternWaste Jul 2016 #248
judging by the responses in this thread ibegurpard Jul 2016 #250
Dress codes are the fundamental foundation of society Warren DeMontague Jul 2016 #251
People like myself don't matter much to anyone, it seems... FixTheProblem Jul 2016 #255
The "special snowflakes" are the East Coast three-piece finance people who make their livings Warren DeMontague Jul 2016 #254
This country (and captalism) are in a rude awakening FixTheProblem Jul 2016 #259
An office dress code is not "being treated like horse shit." Brattines is not "demanding respect." Squinch Jul 2016 #261
When you go to work Aerows Jul 2016 #263

metroins

(2,550 posts)
1. I feel bad
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:28 AM
Jun 2016

For the people in "the real world"

Hopefully these interns learned it's better to create a company and your own rules, rather than be limited by "the real world".

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
10. I guess they lean pretty quick when you work for somebody else
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:37 AM
Jun 2016

it's not a fucking democracy LOL

 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
47. We coddle them to much and can't handle the real world
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:33 PM
Jun 2016

This needs to stop. We are doing a huge disservice to the youth when we treat them as special snowflakes. Colleges doing major damage in that regard.

 

tonyt53

(5,737 posts)
2. As an intern, you are there to learn about the job and industry, not change the company policy
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:28 AM
Jun 2016

That petition did you in. I am in agreement with the company.

Response to Heeeeers Johnny (Original post)

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
17. I particularly love where the kid talks about how he/she "should have been told" why
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:46 AM
Jun 2016

the one employee had an exemption.

No, they shouldn't have been told. It's none of their business. Entitlement is right.

Also interesting: "I've never had a job before. I always concentrated on my studies." This kid is graduating from college next year and has never had a job before.

Response to Squinch (Reply #17)

Response to Squinch (Reply #23)

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
192. Typically, exemptions to such policy can be health related.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 08:47 PM
Jun 2016

As such, the reason is private and confidential.

I fully support the company in their actions.

tammywammy

(26,582 posts)
200. Exactly. In the case of this letter, ADA
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 09:44 PM
Jun 2016

I assume the employer got permission from the employee to reveal it.

In general, if you serine or two people doing something no one else is allowed to - there's a reason and it's none of your business. Heck, where I work there's a business professional dress code. I can get away with wearing jeans on a Wednesday, if I'm not in a meeting with the customer, because I'm really good at what I do. I built the respect, so I can flout some of the "rules" now.

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
220. The employee who was exempt was exempt because they were a returning soldier who had lost a leg.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:13 PM
Jun 2016

Which makes the intern's behavior all the crazier.

Warpy

(110,903 posts)
189. The part that said she had to start crippling herself to comply with a stupid footwear dress code
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 08:18 PM
Jun 2016

You know, that part, the one so many companies have that specify closed toe shoes with two inch heels for women.

Those damned things should be banned from workplaces since they contribute so heavily to disability and even injury on the job.

phylny

(8,353 posts)
205. I can't wear heels anymore.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 10:19 PM
Jun 2016

Too old, too fat.

I wear closed-heeled clogs in the winter, other closed-heeled and toed shoes or sneakers in the summer (goes fine with scrubs, and is allowed).

I'd love to wear open-toed shoes but it's against our dress code.

Warpy

(110,903 posts)
223. No flats, no open shoes (sandals), nothing but leather...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:59 PM
Jun 2016

Working women know exactly what that means.

I've had to get notes from doctors so I could wear dress flats.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
235. Ive seen people wear really low blocky heels- like 3/4-1"
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 01:25 AM
Jul 2016

On pumps and they're more comfortable than flats.
There are so many flat shows that imitate children's styles or look like slippers and that is why the code says no flats. The low blocky heel is very stylish now and comfy.

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
245. The petition specified that they wanted to be able to wear "non-leather flats." That
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 11:50 AM
Jul 2016

seems pretty clearly to mean that leather flats were already allowed.

Initech

(99,914 posts)
4. This needs more information.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:30 AM
Jun 2016

Like what was the industry? What was the dress code? What was the dress code being proposed? Where is this company located? Why would having this new dress code be a good thing / bad thing? So many details left off.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
11. No. It doesn't. None of that matters ...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:38 AM
Jun 2016

Interns don't have a say in policy ... well, at least in the real world. And, if you pause to think about it, there is a very good reason for that. In a word, the short version of the reason is "EXPERIENCE."

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
59. No need more information.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:54 PM
Jun 2016

It's called shut up, do your job, and keep your nose clean. When you have earned the right to be heard, then you may speak. No one owes an intern an explanation on company policy. They are not there to question. Little self indulgent shits is what they are

 

FixTheProblem

(22 posts)
252. "Earned the right to be heard"
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 06:24 PM
Jul 2016

So how much blood and sweat, how much stress, how much literal physical pain, much less mental pain, does one need to sacrifice to their boss, who can never do wrong, before he or she has "earned the right to be heard?"

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
262. Well, I think you should at least know where the bathrooms are
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 09:18 PM
Jul 2016

before you try to re-write company policy. I also think you should shut your trap until you have proven to be competent. The fact that these little twits could not take "no" for an answer and actually made a petition shows that they are still not competent.

WillowTree

(5,325 posts)
229. No it doesn't!
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 12:42 AM
Jul 2016

These kids were there for a short period of time to learn something about the business.......or maybe just to learn about working in the real world. They weren't there to criticize or try to change company policy. This is the type of nonsense that colleges are teaching these delicate flowers when they submit to all the "safe space" insanity that's going around. (And so it doesn't o out of context, I'm not talking about actual safety issues. I'm referring to brats who feel they need to be "protected" from seeing the word TRUMP written in chalk on the sidewalk.)

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
5. "I was able to get a summer internship at a company that does work in the industry..."
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:30 AM
Jun 2016

...but instead, I decided to talk about shoes.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
150. It's actually more like a right wing fantasy story.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 05:13 PM
Jun 2016

Letters to Penthouse, and gun humper self-defense stories are a similar form of creative writing.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
7. No. I doubt they learned a single thing ... beyond, of course ...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:34 AM
Jun 2016

how terribly unfairly they were treated for, simply, exercising their right to be heard.

Words of advice I received early in my career, that has served me so well, I feel compelled to pass on to every newbie to the work world ... that will listen ...

Your job is to do what your boss tells you to do (unless it is illegal, immoral, or unethical), the way she/he tells you to do it, and within the timeframe they give you. Until you demonstrate that you have the capacity to do so; no one cares to hear about your "better way".

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
54. Too bad someone like you wasn't there to tell them this when the issue was first raised.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:45 PM
Jun 2016

But I am having trouble believing this all really happened. There's too many red flags in it for me to swallow it.

Young people nowdays need to hear this. First prove yourself, then discuss your great ideas.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
56. LOL ...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:48 PM
Jun 2016
First prove yourself, then discuss your great ideas.


And, then ... once told "No", accept the "No" as a "No" and move on, or move on.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
58. Well yeah, because there's a whole world out there. It would be a bummer if we peaked at 20.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:51 PM
Jun 2016

Do you believe the story?

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
60. Not particularly ...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:57 PM
Jun 2016

Frankly, I believe it was more than just a proposal and a petition ... it was more likely, a proposal, a petition, a demand and a bunch of pouting.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
9. U.S.A. workers are so pathetic.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:36 AM
Jun 2016

This nation will die with a pathetic whimper, folding quickly to whatever fascism takes root here first.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
13. I don't understand your point? ...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:41 AM
Jun 2016

how is this cautionary tale a foreshadowing of fascist dystopia?

hunter

(38,264 posts)
30. What sort of business considers intern talk about shoes a threat?
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:10 PM
Jun 2016

Seriously. How could this not be laughed about like other intern nonsense?

Hah, hah, my interns wanted to talk about shoes...

Instead it's like, "OH NO! The interns are plotting against us! We'd better fire them ALL before this escalates!"

I guess my blasé attitude comes from living in a place where professional people will sometimes have very obvious tattoos, pink hair, and/or piercings in unlikely places. And the guys dressed like Mexican cowboys probably are Mexican cowboys.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
57. When they start using up more resources than they can possibly generate,
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:49 PM
Jun 2016

firing them is not a bad idea.

whatthehey

(3,660 posts)
62. I wouldn't consider it a threat
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:58 PM
Jun 2016

I would however consider it a sign of an inability to both follow procedure and take direction. They raised the issue, it was responded to. Just because that response was one they didn't like was no reason to make a public point about a disabled employee and waste time using an inappropriate method to escalate (whoever heard of petitions in a workplace? What's wrong with ask manager, then go to HR on matters of personnel policy if you don't understand, then accept it?) I'm no fan of overly strict dress policies except where necessary to protect the product or eliminate offensiveness. I certainly see no need for blaazers and leather only shoes in 99% of jobs, but if I was offered a job where these were the policies, I'd decide whether I could follow them before taking it not after, and I surely wouldn't leverage a disabled colleague to moan about it when I'd already been told they were not interested in exceptions.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
65. The thing that terrified management is that the interns organized.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:03 PM
Jun 2016

Nothing more, nothing less.

It's sad and pathetic.


whatthehey

(3,660 posts)
73. I am not psychic enough to know they were terrified
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:15 PM
Jun 2016

Having managed more than a few people, organization among them has never caused much fear or indeed any negative emotion for me. But their questioning an answer that not just I but all my peers had consistently given that policy exceptions were not going to happen, their choice to waste time complaining about it yet again, and using a method that is inappropriate for organizational development purposes to boot, would certainly make me question their ability to listen and understand and respond appropriately, which are important skills in any office job.

tammywammy

(26,582 posts)
76. It's not that they were organized
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:34 PM
Jun 2016

They were told no and they should have moved on. Instead they wasted more time of their internship on the stupid shoe issue instead of doing what they were supposed to be doing - learning.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
153. I'd say it was their manager wasting time.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 05:21 PM
Jun 2016

Dredging up new interns and getting them up to speed takes time. Office wars over trivial shit are a waste of time too.

Ha, ha. Did you see the shoes that intern was wearing?

Crisis averted.


obamanut2012

(25,911 posts)
114. I have interns, and if they did this, they would be fired, too
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 03:48 PM
Jun 2016

And, I am a very lenient, very reasonable, and very friendly boss. I LOVE working with kids this age, I love mentoring them, and helping them achieve their goals.

However...

My interns know my expectations and our policies. They are treated very well and paid decent, but if they pulled this? Gone. I have too many kids who want these jobs and want to actually learn something and be mentored to put up with this time wasting and ridiculous requests.

I would love to wear a t-shirt, running shorts, and flippies to work every day. Guess what? I can't, and knew that when I accepted the job offer.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
149. It's difficult to see how a good manager would let this petty office drama go so far.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 05:06 PM
Jun 2016

Frankly I think it's a made-up story, like the guy who gave five bucks to a bum for food and then followed him to a liquor store.

Oh no, he bought a tall Colt 45 and two individual cigarettes! Clearly the bum's a liar and a cheat and a worthless human being.

Interns do silly things, but so what?

Ignore the "petition" or give a little slack when it comes to shoes.

The jobs I really hate, however, are those where you can wear anything you like, a Grateful Dead teeshirt, shorts, and sandals, if you please, but you're on salary and expected to live in your office and carry your pager (now company cell phone) when you go out to the parking lot to smoke a joint.

The forty hour work week was a good thing, and too many jobs are salary or 1099 that shouldn't be.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
234. I was trying to write a story like a Trump voter would.
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 01:20 AM
Jul 2016

Guess I'm not up to date in that peculiar dialect.

I'm sure they have more derogatory names for homeless people.

leftstreet

(36,078 posts)
120. +1
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:01 PM
Jun 2016
The thing that terrified management is that the interns organized.

Nothing more, nothing less.

It's sad and pathetic.


 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
126. "terrified" is not the same thing as "annoyed."
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:11 PM
Jun 2016

The management wasn't clutching its collective pearls in fear of a great proletariat uprising. It got tired of a bunch of entitled brats who couldn't do something as simple as wear leather shoes without constantly disrupting business.

Binkie The Clown

(7,911 posts)
134. Management is not "terrified" of anyone they can fire in an instant.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:26 PM
Jun 2016

The last thing a smoothly running company needs is noisy troublemakers. That probably worked for them in college, but it doesn't fly in the real world.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
155. I don't think it's a real story. If it is, it reflects badly on management.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 05:30 PM
Jun 2016

An office tempest over shoes? Really?

Would you like to tell your boss you got into a fight with the interns about shoes and had to fire them all?

Response to hunter (Reply #9)

hunter

(38,264 posts)
61. What the fuck are you talking about?
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:58 PM
Jun 2016

I may have some brains, but I thoroughly damaged my body getting paid well for heavy physical labor when I was younger.

The first time I got paid more than $100 in a day I was moving furniture. I've done a lot of warehouse work, loading and unloading trucks and such, but my body simply can't do it full time any more, not even as a volunteer at the food bank.

My car is an $800 piece of shit, and our health insurance is crappy. What we thought was good insurance covered only a fraction of our medical expenses when we got hit with random illnesses that can happen to ANYONE.

No, I do not believe the U.S.A. is exceptional. We do not live in a true first world nation because we're so fucking gullible that people still celebrate Saint Ronald Reagan the meat-puppet, a pathetic little worm who'd say anything for a blow-job.

Response to hunter (Reply #61)

hunter

(38,264 posts)
67. They are. This nation will fold to the first fascist who comes along.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:09 PM
Jun 2016

Could be Trump for all I know, but he seems more like a Mussolini waiting for his Hitler.

Response to hunter (Reply #67)

hunter

(38,264 posts)
80. I voted for Clinton in the primary.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:39 PM
Jun 2016

Obama is an extraordinarily competent President, and has the street smarts to dodge the crap the Republicans flung at Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.

I'll bet he can deal with silly inexperienced interns too, without setting off a tempest in a teacup.

The U.S.A. is not my utopia, but I was born here and I'll stay on until I lose all hope.

So again, what are you talking about?

Right wing talking points won't get you anywhere with me.

Anyone who is not concerned about the state of our nation isn't paying attention.

TRUMP, a fucking reality show television clown, won the GOP primaries. That should scare the hell out of any rational person.



Response to hunter (Reply #80)

rockfordfile

(8,682 posts)
82. That's not true
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:46 PM
Jun 2016

That's not true
"My point is that your defeated, defeatist, angry, resentful attitude is typical of the far left and a big reason the far left candidate I'm sure you suported got trounced in the primary, including losing the working-class vote substantially. "

That sounds like something from the far right.

Response to rockfordfile (Reply #82)

Throd

(7,208 posts)
98. This is DU. Optimism is for the stupid sheeple.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 02:23 PM
Jun 2016

If you're not constantly cynical and depressed then you are unaware of how crummy everything is. Wake up!

Response to Throd (Reply #98)

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
145. Oh, I'm pretty sure a fair number of working class
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:55 PM
Jun 2016

and those who at least imagine they're poor are here. DU has a major theme of broad-spectrum populist "where's mine" resentment running in tandem with a left-wing extremism that insists on seeing America, and specifically liberals, as corrupted beyond recovery. It's not that the people you describe aren't here also, but those two groups are a natural pairing of the chronically discontented who both believe any fix requires destruction.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
160. I think we can crash land this fossil fueled civilization and walk away.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 06:01 PM
Jun 2016

That's an insane amount of optimism.

Whatever we do at this point, this fossil fueled civilization WILL crash.

We are not the first innovative species on earth to change EVERYTHING, and we won't be the last.

Exponential growth always ends, often badly for the species experiencing it.

In a hundred thousand years it's all a peculiar layer of trash in the geologic record.

Life is what we choose to make of it now.

I'm practical in my politics, and pretty far out their in my dreams.

As a kid I dreamed I'd be playing with supercomputers.

I didn't imagine I'd be retrieving them from dumpsters.

Eventually we may get some true "first world" social democracy in the U.S.A. too.


 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
46. You seem to be making a broadbased
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:30 PM
Jun 2016

swipe at all American workers because of a story about entitled brats who got taught a valuable lesson about what working for a living is actually like.

Response to leftynyc (Reply #46)

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
95. I don't think that has anything to do with my point
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 02:14 PM
Jun 2016

These were INTERNS - they're there for work experience and learned a valuable lesson that places of employment are not democracies.

Response to leftynyc (Reply #95)

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
154. I see no reason to assume these interns are
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 05:29 PM
Jun 2016

from especially privileged backgrounds, just not from genuinely impoverished ones. These days typical American suburban kids of parents doing okay are privileged, whether they realize it or not. They typically have undemanding responsibilities around the house and lead very sheltered lives, overloaded with possessions and overprotected and underexposed to the world. The group could also span the entire socioeconomic spectrum. College does that for people.

Response to Hortensis (Reply #154)

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
163. THIS kid was talking about himself only, however.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 06:21 PM
Jun 2016

The vast majority is not every one. Also, the majority of your students were undoubtedly working for discretionary spending money, plus perhaps meeting the dreadful hardship of being required to save some money toward some large purchase their parents required them to help kick in for. The majority were not working to help their parents feed the younger children, though if relatively poor they may have had to buy their own nice clothes if they wanted any and help out the family in a crunch.

Our children are raising their kids in solid middle middle class and upper middle class neighborhoods. I recognize the attitudes well enough. The more modest-neighborhood neighbors just got to bail a 16-year-old out of jail who thought the police couldn't treat people "this way" and may have learned the hard way that challenging cops when they ask for your license is a bad idea. May because that seems to be slow in coming. They're both bemused and amused to realize they raised such a dumbass kid who now "understands" why people join terrorist groups, but the kid probably literally never walked farther than the subdivision pool area alone until he was in high school.

In any case, like others I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this group had a leader who instigated a group-think that this was a reasonable and appropriate way for people preparing for mid-level jobs to approach a workplace problem.

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
18. Not really. This kid thought he/she could dictate terms to the company when he/she didn't
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:48 AM
Jun 2016

like the existing terms.

Seems like gargantuan entitlement to me.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
22. But it's okay ...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:51 AM
Jun 2016

when she/he got home, Mom and Dad told him/her how special she/he is and how he/she is going to change the world.

EllieBC

(2,960 posts)
26. I'm hoping people like my parents were there instead.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:59 AM
Jun 2016

"What's wrong with you? Who raised you? Now you go out and find whatever job you can. And you shut your mouth, open your ears and eyes, and learn something!".

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
33. LOL ...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:13 PM
Jun 2016

My sibling from another mother ... Frankly, I would have been afraid to tell my parents what happened ... better I just say I quit!

EllieBC

(2,960 posts)
90. I got fired when I was 16 from my first job.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 02:04 PM
Jun 2016

For pulling a lot of call ins on the weekend because I wanted to hang out with friends. My father warned me I would get fired. Sure enough, I did. My father asked me how I was going to afford to loiter at the mall with friends now that I didn't have job. That wasn't all he had to say about my poor work ethic but I'm sure you can fill in the rest.


 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
97. My first "real" job was working the stock room of a men's clothing store ...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 02:21 PM
Jun 2016

I hated it. The boxes were heavy ... the storeroom was a mess ... and the owner was a first rate ass. So, after my first pay check, I just didn't go back.

My Father noticed me at home, when I was supposed to be at work. I told him what happened and that I had quit. He asked me how I took the owner. I told him, "Nothing ... I just didn't go back."

He put me in the car a drove me to the shop, and put me out, telling me ... "You were 'Man" enough to quit; you have to be 'Man' enough to own it."

That, was a valuable lesson.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
108. Not if your boss was abusive; THEN, I'd say, fuck it.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 03:19 PM
Jun 2016

Being "man enough" to own the fact that you abandoned a job ... If that's supposed to equal something like "big girls don't cry", then well, you didn't cry about it, did you, so what was your father's problem? Weird on your father's part, IMHO.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
113. Yes ... Insisting that a young adult (child) own up to their decision ...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 03:47 PM
Jun 2016

What was wrong with my father?

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
124. I'll tell you ... There is nothing wrong with his insisting that I own my decision to quit ...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:05 PM
Jun 2016

as a result, he raised a well adjusted, adult that owns up to/takes responsibility for his decisions.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
129. If your boss was abusive and he told you to subject yourself to that abuse further,
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:18 PM
Jun 2016

that's something that I would not do to my child.

If, on the other hand, my child quit for a stupid reason, or just got lazy, then I would think about doing so.

Perhaps I'm not getting the nuances of how events unfolded; not trying to antagonize you, so peace to you.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
135. I said the boss was an ass (in the eyes of a 15 year old) ...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:30 PM
Jun 2016

I quit for the reasons I stated ... the boxes were heavy and the stockroom was a mess ... and the unspoken reason ... I was 15.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
137. Okay, you know what, I'm not here to pick a fight with either one of you.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:37 PM
Jun 2016

I said what I needed to say, I didn't intend for you to take my remarks personally, I apologize if it came off that way, ok? Sincerely.

We three may have a difference of opinion (or not). I can live with that, and I'm done with this sub-thread.

Have a great evening.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
159. Sounds like you may be blowing up the "abusive" part
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 05:54 PM
Jun 2016

to something that could be used as an excuse for just walking out. Somehow I doubt this father thought his son should stay and be genuinely seriously abused. But being able to fit calmly and properly into a hierarchical work environment is absolutely necessary for success for virtually anyone, no matter how privileged the upbringing.

In any case, there are right ways and wrong ways to do anything, and this father insisted leaving the job be done a right way--for his son's sake. We would absolutely have insisted on the same. We were far from perfect, but it's about trying to raise a child to be an honorable, responsible adult who can be proud of himself, as opposed just being around while it happens willy-nilly.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
128. I think the father taught him a lesson in responsibility. You don't just walk off a job
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:17 PM
Jun 2016

you have committed to do.

The only person I ever knew that did that had bipolar disorder.

1StrongBlackMan didn't have that excuse. His dad did the right thing.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
132. Not if you're a responsible adult. You at the very least tender your resignation,
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:24 PM
Jun 2016

and give whatever notice you agreed to when you took the job. Clearly this workplace wasn't a dangerous place and 1StrongBlackMan wouldn't have been at risk if he had announced his intention to leave.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
133. Nope. Methinks you protest too much. You weren't there; I wasn't there.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:26 PM
Jun 2016

But he said "the boss was an ass".

If you were being abused by a boss, and you walked off the job, you'd go back and explain? I don't think so.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
141. 1SBM WAS there and he clearly thinks his father did the right thing
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:53 PM
Jun 2016

and that the boss wasn't so abusive he should have walked off the job without notice.

 

alphafemale

(18,497 posts)
191. It's called adult. You do things even if they are horrible and awful.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 08:42 PM
Jun 2016

You've avoided that with wave smilies?

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
225. It's adult to go back to your abuser and explain why you left?
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 12:27 AM
Jul 2016

Oky, great, thanks - I'll remember you said that. Cheers.

 

astral

(2,531 posts)
246. Absolutely. You inform them you are quitting.
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 12:23 PM
Jul 2016

I heard a story myself a new hiree just didn't come back after lunch on their first day of work, never bothered to tell them anything. now that's just weird.

even in an abusive work environment you tell your employer you are quitting. If you feel it's bad enough you don't need to give notice, that's a separate issue and sometimes might be warranted. if you don't need the money and don't want to put them on your resume', or if the abuse was that extreme in your opinion.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
164. My parents are both "You broke it, you fix it," almost to the extreme.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 06:22 PM
Jun 2016

So much so that I quit telling them about the hardest knocks I endured.

At one point I was homeless and living in my broken car in a church parking lot.

Bloody hell, I learned a lot about the world, all the good, bad, ugly, and Holy Mother of God there is some ugly shit out there.

I'm sure my own kids, adults now, have stories to tell, their own stories of crash-and-burn, but I pray none as bad as my own, or that they ever had to learn to be invisible as a means of survival.

 

FixTheProblem

(22 posts)
257. I might die before 40, but I'll be able to say I was never anyone's slave
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 06:40 PM
Jul 2016

I'll likely die before 40 due to depression that no one cares about. I've had a few jobs, and always worked as hard as I was able, but that's not good enough, it seems. I quit my first job at 17 after my boss called me "poor white trash" and called my mother a whore. I guess, according to the responses here, I should have "accepted responsibility" and "learned something," since I had not "earned the right to speak." Oh yeah, about that boss, he's serving 30 years in prison for rape right now.

Proud Public Servant

(2,097 posts)
27. Yes, really. You're just wrong.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:02 PM
Jun 2016

This kid did not think "he/she could dictate terms to the company when he/she didn't like the existing terms."

This kid thought he/she could approach the management with a grievance AND a proposed solution and get a fair hearing without punitive consequences. That doesn't make her/him a "special snowflake." That makes her/him an American. Or does that whole "right to petition grievances" thing in the First Amendment rub you the wrong way, too?

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
29. OH, for fuck's sake. Such drama. The kid was an intern in a job with a dress code. Such
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:08 PM
Jun 2016

horrible abuse! Such patriotic Americanism to refuse to accept a dress code they tacitly agreed to when they took the internship! Such bravery in the face of such vile injustice!

And do read up on that right to petition grievances. Because it has nothing to do with this situation.

Proud Public Servant

(2,097 posts)
34. And the kid did what, exactly?
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:15 PM
Jun 2016

Asked management to consider a broad employee request. No sit in, no hunger strike, no hostages. A request. And that a fireable offense? And you're good with that? Because its way too authoritarian for my tastes.

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
38. I'd have booted them too. Mostly for stupidity (making demands in a situation in which
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:20 PM
Jun 2016

they have no standing) and for wasting everyone's time.

And the sad and tragic fact is that when you are a summer intern, others do have professional authority over you.

obamanut2012

(25,911 posts)
118. Me too -- I have never had interns do anything this ridiculous
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 03:56 PM
Jun 2016

As I said downthread, I would have booted them, too.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
168. How about just saying "No, that's not the way we do things here, now get back to
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 06:33 PM
Jun 2016

work." I think the reaction of the company was way overblown. And yes, very authoritarian.

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
209. They did that. It wasn't good enough for the kid. So the kid took work time and
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 10:39 PM
Jun 2016

made an issue of it and distracted many members of the office into an argument about shoes.

No one who is actually doing a job has any time for that, and if some intern is insisting that we all take the time to do that, that intern would be showing me that they aren't mature enough to be in the workplace.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
170. Then you'd be a bad manager, wasting company time on trivial shit.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 06:36 PM
Jun 2016

Restarting with a new batch of interns isn't cheap.

Proud Public Servant

(2,097 posts)
48. So? You've always taken no for an answer?
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:34 PM
Jun 2016

It's not like they staged a sit-down strike or set the office on fire. They revisited the question, showing that it was nearly all interns who felt that way, not just one malcontent. Hell, if I accepted every answer from every moron manager I've ever worked for, I'd never have gotten as far as I have. Sure, tell them no again, but firing? I can't imagine any actually competent manager or organization responding that way.

tammywammy

(26,582 posts)
85. Firing seems justified
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:56 PM
Jun 2016

After being told no, the interns continued to press for information they had no right to and waste time on a freaking petition about shoes. And on top of that doesn't even have the audacity to be embarrassed that their whole argument essentially rested on an ADA situation with someone that had lost their freaking leg! They were wasting time that should have been spent learning about the company and industry to bitch about shoes.

Proud Liberal Dem

(24,355 posts)
68. Interns have even less protection
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:09 PM
Jun 2016

pretty much none. Plus, we may not even be getting the full story either. Who know what was said, how things were spoken, and how they were acting. Could be more there than we are being told.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
131. No, the intern purposefully organized a group to put pressure on management
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:20 PM
Jun 2016

to change its policy -- without even first trying to understand why the policy was in place.

Not a good tactic to take. Work places aren't democracies, by the way. Too bad these interns had to learn that the hard way.

Abq_Sarah

(2,883 posts)
201. As a business owner...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 09:44 PM
Jun 2016

I can say if I had a group of interns who decided they wanted to float a petition to change company policy, they'd get some real world experience in getting fired.

f the idiot who started the petition had come to me and asked for a revision of the dress code, I would have at least considered it and listened to her. But a petition? Oh hell no.

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
211. The one who started the petition did go to his/her manager and ask for a revision. The person
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 10:43 PM
Jun 2016

was told no and THEN did the petition.

If they worked for me they would be out the door before they knew they had turned around.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
55. The First Amendment only applies to the government. To some degree, to most union memberships.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:47 PM
Jun 2016

This doesn't rub me the wrong way - I just don't quite believe it.

Proud Public Servant

(2,097 posts)
79. I'm not saying it's a 1st amendment issue
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:38 PM
Jun 2016

per se. But the constitution also enshines our values -- including questioning authority, something I'm always surprised isnt more valued on DU.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
206. There is a difference between questioning authority and just being a brat...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 10:19 PM
Jun 2016

I fail to see this intern as Patrick Fucking Henry. I see a spoiled little shit who wanted to wear sneakers and organized a "petition" when told no. I would have fired the intern for lack of maturity if nothing else. There are things worth falling on your sword. Keds ain't one of them...

PJMcK

(21,916 posts)
78. A private company is not bound by the First Amendment
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:36 PM
Jun 2016

The Constitution does not grant rights to workers in private employ. It grants rights to the people protecting them from the Government. In contrast, private corporations are protected by the Constitution to have their own rules for their company's operations.

The young person in this story clearly didn't understand their position in the company's hierarchy. That's life. Perhaps they will have learned an important lesson about work.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
167. Seriously, I can't even believe this is DU!
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 06:31 PM
Jun 2016

I feel like, so far, I am hearing a bunch of right-wing senior citizens spouting off about how kids these days just don't sit down, shut up and do as their told. No matter how stupid it is.

And for the record, I have been employed in the corporate world for over 30 years, so it's no like I am some non-conformist rabble-rouser.

Proud Public Servant

(2,097 posts)
179. I'm really glad to hear this
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:12 PM
Jun 2016

I was starting to feel like I had stumbled into the Twighlight Zone. Glad there are at least two of us who get it!

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
207. Free clue: the constitution and bill of rights doesn't apply to your employer*.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 10:30 PM
Jun 2016

A private (non-government) employer doesn't have to allow you to proselytize at work, or listen to your political speech.

The right to a free press or the right to the free exercise of religion is the ability to do so without government interference.

It has fuck-all to do with you and your employer. The same applies to the fourth amendment. Your employer doesn't have to get a warrant to search your desk, and they can fire your ass for not letting them search your bag / purse / backpack, if it's company policy.

It's right there in the preamble to the bill of rights.

God, I get tired of this. I swear to god, we need to propose a $50 tax credit for people to take and pass an online 10th grade civics class.







* There are things that an employer must accommodate, but there is specific legislation protecting these circumstances. e.g. union organizing or reasonable accommodation for religious practice. These have nothing to do with the bill of rights.

Iris

(15,632 posts)
217. Yes.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:08 PM
Jun 2016

This is a thread that makes it hard for me to believe this is still DU. I'm not even sure what I'm seeing here - resentment towards college students or complacency with a system that has such little regard for workers'rights that firing someone for speaking up is a fireable offense.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
15. No sympathy here, sorry.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:43 AM
Jun 2016


Further, what they don't seem to have considered is the one with sneakers may have had a medical need.

EDIT - I went to the article and I see, yup, Ms. Sneakers DID have a medical need.

Some interns are interns for a good reason, I guess.

splat

(2,284 posts)
19. After you made a money-saving proposal, you might have tried it
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:49 AM
Jun 2016

Your head is supposed to be into how to improve procedures or save or make money in most businesses.

They made a dress code to create what they think of as a professional atmosphere. If your energy is going to making you comfortable rather than making them more successful, they'll decide you don't fit.

You can find a looser atmosphere within the industry or bite the bullet and take what you need while looking harmless.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
25. And, even then ...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:57 AM
Jun 2016

the money-saving proposal, would likely be unfavorably received, if not filed away, unread ... Why? Because "you're" a summer intern!

This is not to say, the rare case that someone with a month of experience can develop a money-saving plan (that hasn't been tried, evaluated and discarded) can't occur; but, the odds are, vanishingly, short.

Proud Public Servant

(2,097 posts)
21. I'm going to stick up for the intern here
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:50 AM
Jun 2016

As someone with a daughter who has interned, and someone who has supervised interns, here's my view: business attire either costs a lot or looks shitty . If I'm taking on some college kid or recent grad (who's likely drowning in debt), and that kid is working without a salary, I will think twice about requiring them to acquire more business attire (they generally all have an "interview suit," but wearing the same suit all week every week is impractical, especially in a DC summer). If they're trapped in their cube all day, only interacting with other coworkers, I don't have a problem with business casual.

Also, any business that deals with a non-confrontational employee request by summarily firing the employee is evil. That goes without saying.

Arkansas Granny

(31,483 posts)
28. I would feel sorry too, except she said she had already asked her manager about it
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:05 PM
Jun 2016

and was told there was no leeway. The other interns who had asked their managers had been told the same, but they collectively decided to carry it further with a signed proposal.

Sometimes you have to accept the answer even if you don't like it.

Proud Public Servant

(2,097 posts)
41. That's where I disagree
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:21 PM
Jun 2016

The kid asks the manager, manager says no way, no leeway.

So the kid thinks: well, why not? Maybe if we all band together, showing that there's broad feeling about this among the interns and asking that the dress code have a rational purpose (most don't), maybe we can effect change.

Sure, shoot down the proposal. But fire her/him? Frankly, that's the kind of person I want working for me: somebody who questions institutional behavior, looks for a rational fit between policy and purpose, and acts on their ideas.

Iris

(15,632 posts)
219. Bingo.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:11 PM
Jun 2016

We throw the word entrepreneur around until its meaningless and take glee in watching someone get cut down for questioning?

 

tonyt53

(5,737 posts)
31. As someone who hires at least one intern per summer, and usually two, I disagree.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:10 PM
Jun 2016

They take the position knowing what is expected, including attire. I've been fortunate enough to have had some good ones, as well as the two that I have here now (engineering firm). They do ask questions about why we do some things a certain way, but those questions are relevant to their careers and part of gaining experience, and never about attire. While here, they can wear jeans and tennis shoes. But when they go out to a customer's location, they have to wear business casual attire, including the appropriate shoes. The intern has a choice when taking a position. They know the responsibilities up front.

Proud Public Servant

(2,097 posts)
44. I can easily imagine
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:26 PM
Jun 2016

That the kid was okay with professional attire requirement because s/he assumed it had a purpose. It sounds like it had no purpose at all (I've seen plenty of positions like that, and worked a few) and the interns wanted managers to rethink their policy. I respect that. You don't have to agree with the intern, but firing seems like thin-skinned overkill designed to teach the lesson, "never question authority." That's not something I'd ever get behind.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
36. The entire intern scheme is a scam for wealthier people to put their own kids ahead.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:18 PM
Jun 2016

Unless it's the sort of internship that provides free room and board the only kids who can afford to be interns have wealthy parents.

Proud Public Servant

(2,097 posts)
45. Not true
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:28 PM
Jun 2016

I've supervised plenty of interns who worked a second job in order to get the educational and professional opportunities of an internship (usually while living in group homes with shared bedrooms to save on housing). I agree interns should be paid, but not every intern is the spoiled scion of the 1%.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
49. In Germany apprentices are paid as full time workers...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:35 PM
Jun 2016

... half for working, half for formal classroom-style training.

The U.S. system is bullshit.

 

tonyt53

(5,737 posts)
152. Here in the US, a state-registered apprentice is paid while they work.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 05:19 PM
Jun 2016

The union building trades all have this type of program. The apprentices go to school on their own time usually, but in some places like Chicago and the Plumbers & Pipefitters Local 597, they also get paid to go to school because it is during the day

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
158. We pay our interns between 16-18 dollars an hour
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 05:51 PM
Jun 2016

This is the mid-west not the east or west coast, so one would hardly call this a meager wage.

The only unpaid internship I ever had was at the university I attended.

I work in a "science and engineering" profession ... I have never run into unpaid internships; quite the opposite. These internships usually pay more than other typical "summer jobs" and are coveted.

tammywammy

(26,582 posts)
182. It's everything that's not civil or environmental. Heh
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:16 PM
Jun 2016

Mechanical, electrical, software, manufacturing, systems engineering, etc. It's a manufacturing facility, so that plus the business stuff - finance, proposals, etc.

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
187. I am strictly on the environmental side ...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:39 PM
Jun 2016

Senior Environmental Scientist .... a token "non-engineer"

hunter

(38,264 posts)
140. Are the shoe requirements reasonable?
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:52 PM
Jun 2016

The only uncomfortable footwear I've ever been required to wear is steel toed boots. They grow on you. Eventually you feel pretty bad-ass wearing them.

Closed toed non-porous shoes with non-skid soles have been another requirement, but some of the stuff we were working with isn't anything you'd ever want on your toes.



hack89

(39,171 posts)
144. We require business casual in the office
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:54 PM
Jun 2016

Which means leather shoes for men and no sandals for women.

belcffub

(595 posts)
169. My internship paid $25 an hour...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 06:35 PM
Jun 2016

at the end of the summer I asked if I could stay... they said yes... I canceled all my classes drove home packed up and moved 500 miles away... best thing I ever did... went to school at night while working for a big name company the paved my way for other jobs... loved my internship...

christx30

(6,241 posts)
148. I'm in a situation like this.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 05:04 PM
Jun 2016

I've been working where I am for 4 years. Love my job, and the relaxed atmosphere here. Jeans, tshirts, and no open toed shoes is the dress code.
We recently had a merger, and the dress code changed to business casual. I'm in a call center environment with no customer interaction. But rather than complain about it, I went to a second hand store and bought some slacks.
If the aim is to keep your job, sometimes you just do what you are told. Plus, I look GOOD.

tammywammy

(26,582 posts)
32. Ask a Manager is one of my favorite blogs!
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:11 PM
Jun 2016

I read it daily.

Allison's advice was spot on to them. The intern made a petition and demanded changes - the workplace isn't school. It's not a surprise they were all fired. Hopefully the interns take this as a learning experience, by the way the letter is written it doesn't appear so.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
35. I can't believe unpaid labor (or poorly paid labor) is given a dress code
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:15 PM
Jun 2016

And Democrats here on DU think it's great they all got fired for daring to question their masters...Er I mean their poorly paying or no paying capatalist empolyers.

These so called employers (cause if you're not paying for your labor you ain't an employer.) cut off these students (interns are suppose to be students learning about the industry) from even asking questions. What kind of educational experience is that?

Or have we gone so far down the rabbit hole the we are allowing employers to use and abuse interns as if they were real full time paid workes? Now that attitude will ensure that unions will disappear from the American economy.

And then Democrats, who were once the party of the working people, get on a Democratic board and cheer on the abuse as if they were guards of some slave labor camp.

There are so many things wrong about this thread, I pray it's not indicative of what DU has turned into.

tammywammy

(26,582 posts)
39. Not all interns are unpaid labor.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:21 PM
Jun 2016

Where I work all interns are paid an hourly wage. They're also not given crap tasks and if they work out well are offered a full time position for when they graduate. Interns comply with the same dress code as everyone else.

tammywammy

(26,582 posts)
143. They don't do the same job.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:53 PM
Jun 2016

They don't do grunt work like make copies or fetch coffee, but they don't have near the responsibility as even an entry level person and no where close to what I do. They're paid around $20/hour which is less than an entry level college hire.

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
162. They don't do the same job as regular hires. They are baby employees given an opportunity to learn
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 06:19 PM
Jun 2016

...about the company and the industry, and if they make a good impression (and if there is an opening) they might be offered a job as a regular hire after college.

Internships are opportunities, not careers. They are below entry level. Way, way below. They are a coveted foot in the door when every available job has hundreds, if not thousands, of applicants.

So you want to show up on time, do what you are told to do as best you can with a smile on your face, and dress the way they tell you to dress because it's their company and their image, not yours.

ProfessorGAC

(64,417 posts)
241. In What World Would An Intern Know Enough. . .
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 08:49 AM
Jul 2016

. . .to do the same job as a full time, experienced professional?

R.A. Ganoush

(97 posts)
50. Go look up the US DOL requirements for unpaid internships
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:37 PM
Jun 2016

Strong enforcement over the past 5 years since the rule clarification has dramatically reduced the number of unpaid internship. They're paid a wage with mandated deductions and are expected to do the work assigned to them.

It isn't a fucking vacation lifeguarding at the town pool.

Do. Your. Job...and keep your mouth shut and you just might learn something, which is why you're there.

R.A. Ganoush

(97 posts)
146. Hopefuly the strawman helped you come up with that one, because
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:58 PM
Jun 2016

at no time was that stated. If you inferred that, well I guess that's on you.

The point is there are increasing enforcement mechanisms that have rendered your argument moot over time. Interns serve a valuable purpose to many businesses, large and small; they've received additional protections over time to mitigate abuse, and if they'd like the same working conditions, privileges and benefits as regular employees, they're free to apply or be offered continuing employment at the conclusion of their internship. Until then, their smartest move is to just learn from the opportunity.

That's just the way it is.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
240. Only in some states are these so called protections for interns in place
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 08:40 AM
Jul 2016

I live in the south and I've seen interns in the fields picking, on the roads digging and in the office filing. The office filer was getting college credit from Walter State and no pay. The field hands were recieving only room and board and were from a college in NC. And the road crew worker said he got minimum wage, even though the others were making $10 an hour. Interns seem to be just a way to beef up your labor for little to no pay.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
103. My company pays interns $18 an hour.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 02:30 PM
Jun 2016

we view internships as extended job interviews and are very careful who we pick.

Orrex

(63,084 posts)
105. Why in the world shouldn't interns have a dress code?
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 02:45 PM
Jun 2016

Last edited Thu Jun 30, 2016, 03:36 PM - Edit history (1)

Why shouldn't interns be held to the same standard as conventional employees? What rules should apply to interns? Can they be expected to perform the work that they agree to perform? Can they hang out on their phones for their entire shift? Can they insult customers and use profanity with no fear of repercussion? Why do you prioritize the interns over their employers?

They're not children running around in a field; they are professionals working in a professional environment, and they should reasonably be expected to conform to the policies of the company for which they're interning. If they don't like the terms of that employment, then they are free to leave. If they violate the terms of that employment, then the employer is under no obligation to retain them.

These so called employers (cause if you're not paying for your labor you ain't an employer.) cut off these students (interns are suppose to be students learning about the industry) from even asking questions. What kind of educational experience is that?
That's a silly objection because they certainly weren't dismissed for "asking questions." The interns approached their managers and were given an answer. They then deliberately chose--in writing--to ignore the chain of command in order to have their preferences implemented as policy. That's the unprofessional behavior that was cited as the reason for their dismissal.

Or have we gone so far down the rabbit hole the we are allowing employers to use and abuse interns as if they were real full time paid workes? Now that attitude will ensure that unions will disappear from the American economy.
Ridiculous. The interns were not abused. They were held to a professional standard and they failed to meet that standard. Why should the employer coddle the interns?

And then Democrats, who were once the party of the working people, get on a Democratic board and cheer on the abuse as if they were guards of some slave labor camp.
That's absolute garbage and it's grossly offensive on many levels. Interns are certainly not slaves, and your choice of analogy demonstrates that you don't know what slaves are and you don't know what interns are.
 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
107. You are snowflake enabler.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 02:52 PM
Jun 2016

Everything you just posted explains entirely why these kids feel entitled to live by different rules and get all pouty when they can't.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
117. Oh for crying out loud.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 03:55 PM
Jun 2016
And Democrats here on DU think it's great they all got fired for daring to question their masters...Er I mean their poorly paying or no paying capatalist empolyers.


I'm going to be frank. If I were in the boss's position, I would have let them go as well. This has nothing to do with rights of workers vs. employers; this has everything to do with the fact they were being nuisances and wasting everyone's time on a ridiculous non-issue.

And then Democrats, who were once the party of the working people, get on a Democratic board and cheer on the abuse as if they were guards of some slave labor camp.


"Waaahhhhh I can't wear tennis shoes when I feel like it"

IS NOT

"I'm being worked to death, developing cancer, never getting to see my children, not able to put food on the table, and unable to afford to see a doctor."
 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
173. I feel like I have stumbled on to the wrong board.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 06:40 PM
Jun 2016

I can't believe all these authoritarian posts.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
86. Years ago, I met a naturalized American woman, a postwar German ex-pat.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:58 PM
Jun 2016

A lovely, friendly woman. I met her one day during a period when I was collecting unemployment after having been laid off from a job that was just not a good fit for me. Upon learning of my industry, she asked me for a favor (which I could never fulfill, I didn't even want to), but I recall one thing she said, that she believed it was healthy for everyone to get fired from at least one job at some point during their careers.

I didn't really understand her meaning at the time, but in hindsight, I do now, and I would now agree with her.

PJMcK

(21,916 posts)
176. So did I
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:03 PM
Jun 2016

The lesson I learned was never to work for that jerk again! (wink)

Happy 4th of July.

 

astral

(2,531 posts)
247. I should confess too
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 01:08 PM
Jul 2016

so long ago I forgot it ever happened. I was fired for not WEARING my shoes, my feet sweated a lot and I was walking down the hall in my socks on an errand, something I did all the time but nobody seemed to notice nor was I aware there was anything wrong with it. My boss from a distance saw me and hollered at me to put my shoes on and I thought that was rude ( this was in truth my first 'boss from hell' anyway) so I decided to keep walking and put my shoes on when I come back.

Surprise, surprise, I was fired that day for Insubordination. I was very surprised, and I HAD learned my lesson, not too sad to lose my boss from hell, tho!

I had been on the job almost six months and was told my probationary period was still in effect so I didn't need to be given a warning or a second chance.

People should realize that young people don't know where their boundaries are yet, and they certainly don't learn about them in school, what they do and don't learn in school is another topic of conversation, tho!

My reason for not immediately obeying my boss were twofold, first, I thought she was just being obnoxious and trying to embarrass me, second, I was very offended at being hollered at from far away so everyone could hear it, besides from being totally startled, my reaction was to hold off on reacting, so I kept on walking.

Wait, wha. . . ?

PJMcK

(21,916 posts)
256. How did you reach that conclusion?
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 06:35 PM
Jul 2016

There wasn't any indication in the article that the writer had an acrimonious relationship with her supervisor(s). Further, she wasn't the only intern let go, the whole group who felt entitled to argue a ridiculously unimportant point, i.e., wearing athletic shoes to work, were let go.

Please explain your post.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
63. My experience is that you don't ask managers for approval of something like that, most are going to
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:00 PM
Jun 2016

say "No." If you think it is important enough for you, Just Do It without drawing a bunch of other people into it. I hope the intern learned something.

alc

(1,151 posts)
64. This is part of the reason for H1Bs
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:00 PM
Jun 2016

I'm against most H1B use but this is part of the reason companies go that route. I've worked for 2 companies that pay more for H1Bs than they would for direct hires (the consulting company takes a huge cut so the workers don't get that much).

If you need 100s of IT workers it's a risk having new grads or young junior developers (which you need for cost and worker availability reasons). 5-10 will have this attitude and will often get others to go with them.

They tell me I'm using the wrong programming language; wrong platform; wrong tools; wrong methodology. Or the business is stupid for asking for this requirement or that tool or some data analysis. And we have THE SAME discussion every week. I've had junior developers do things "their way" AFTER we had a discussion of "their way" vs "my way". And use an open source library AFTER legal told us not to. And bypass me and go directly to the business to tell them they wouldn't get what they asked for because it was stupid (the trouble makers don't have a lot of tact). Most are not like this but a small percent cause huge headaches. And potential legal liabilities they don't understand even after being told. A $multi-million fine can happen really quick with cookies, and user-uploaded content, and accessibility for the disabled. And some junior developers don't care no matter how much training legal and senior developers give them.

H1Bs don't have this problem. And when there is a problem the company you hire them from will have them replaced tomorrow. There are many other problems with H1Bs but certain classes of headaches don't happen.

EllieBC

(2,960 posts)
71. I've heard that applied to other industries as well.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:14 PM
Jun 2016

We have a large immigrant Filipino and Indian population here in BC. Many industries from IT to transportation to service prefer to hire them because they show up on time and work hard.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
87. Isn't it funny - interns from South Asia dress to the nines, even for free, and
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 02:00 PM
Jun 2016

American staff seem to dress not just sloppily but scandalously - and now, from this story, it seems they DEMAND no standards.

Bring back "Dress for Success!"

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
110. I find the same to be true with my college students. In general, though not always of course,
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 03:32 PM
Jun 2016

the international students have a better work ethic, a more respectful attitude, and a willingness to accept and learn from correction and critiques. Students from some countries can be difficult to deal with, but most of my international students, despite difficulties with English, are more willing to be taught and more aware that they have a responsibility to be in class, do the assignments, and pay attention.

(Again, these observations are general, so of course there are exceptions.)

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
69. This must have been the intern's first job. What a privileged life to be that old ....
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:12 PM
Jun 2016

....and not have ever held a job where, oddly enough, you have to do what the boss tells you to do unless it is actually illegal.

I wonder how many of those kids learned the many valuable lessons available from this episode.

EllieBC

(2,960 posts)
72. It was her first job. She says that in her letter.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:14 PM
Jun 2016

She focused on school so she never held s job before.

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
99. Yeah, I read the whole thing at the link after my post. Jeez. I worked 20 hrs/week....
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 02:26 PM
Jun 2016

....as a sales clerk all the way through university. The store had a strict dress code, which we were instructed in when we were hired. The pathetically low wage covered food, rent, clothing and not much else (ie, no car, not much entertainment). Fortunately my savings covered tuition and fees, which were orders of magnitude lower back then. While I was under my parents' roof I was required to find summer jobs -- which, aside from everything else was supposed to teach me responsibility in the adult world, things like showing up on time and taking orders from the people who paid you to be there.

I would have loved to have had the opportunity for an internship to learn something in the career world that didn't involve sales clerking, babysitting, or canning pineapples, but kids of my social class didn't even know what internships were, or at least my parents certainly did not. They had no "connections" and they had no means of paying my way if I was living away from home.

I do not begrudge any young person who has it easier, but it flabbergasts me that their parents would fail to let them learn the essential life lessons involved in holding that first crummy job at 16 or 18 years old. Then by the time they get to be an intern in the industry they want to have a career in, they will have some basis on which to judge the incredible privilege that involves.



 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
74. They knew the terms of engagement when they accepted.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:18 PM
Jun 2016

Dress codes and other corporate policies are specifically detailed for new employees prior to or immediately upon hiring.

They agreed and became disgruntled when they observed an employee wearing casual footwear...due to a lost limb when they were deployed, BTW. So they decided to circulate a petition, most likely on company time, and got slapped down for it. Boo hoo.

Snowflakes indeed.

 

Jim Beard

(2,535 posts)
183. I really like your reply
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:23 PM
Jun 2016

My area cellphone company is being sold to AT&T. Some in this area are being held hostage. Anyway I got a real jackass letter from AT&T telling us what we were to do or we could shove it. IT MAKES ME FEEL SO GOOD TO TELL AT&T TO SHOVE IT. I feel sorry for those in my area who have no choice but to subscribe to AT&T because of reception problems.

In 1996 because of the feud, I had to pay, because of use of AT&T lines, 50cents a minute to talk to my son 60 miles away.

Screw the big boys and their chicken shit rules. I am 69 and have earned the right to be a jackass!

cbdo2007

(9,213 posts)
89. Dress for the job you want, not the job you have.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 02:02 PM
Jun 2016

It really does matter...not that they should be overdressing, but they should go out of their way to wear as nice of clothes as they can afford and definitely make a point of not underdressing, even if other people are.

 

SoLeftIAmRight

(4,883 posts)
93. It really does matter
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 02:12 PM
Jun 2016

I find that sad

do the clothes make the person - for far too many this is true

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
104. Right. It needn't be expensive to do so, either.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 02:37 PM
Jun 2016

Careful shopping of sales or even thrift stores will allow a person of limited means to accumulate a very good career wardrobe over time.

Or, in this context, another valuable life skill.

PJMcK

(21,916 posts)
253. Dress for success
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 06:25 PM
Jul 2016

This is the advice that I got when I began working and I note that closeupready made this point in post #87.

At my first job, the boss/owner always wore impeccable suits and ties. He looked like he was the wealthy success that he was. Although I couldn't afford to shop where he did, he set the tone for the office and as a new hire, it would never have occurred to me to dress down. After all, people respond to one's appearance whether subconsciously or not.

The old adage is still true: you only get one chance to make a first impression.

uppityperson

(115,674 posts)
101. It is ok to ask your manager, but when told no, then just drop it and move on to
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 02:29 PM
Jun 2016

something else. Like just doing your job.

I'm not going to call this person names or insult them. I hope they learned that it is unfortunate but businesses are often not democratic.

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
116. The bosses who respond to the letter make a number of excellent points.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 03:55 PM
Jun 2016

Their comments are well worth reading.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
121. Glad to read so many think He/She handled it wrong. I thought with so many anti-corporate types here
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:02 PM
Jun 2016

only a few would say "probably not the best time to stick it to the man."

The intern probably would have been better off trying to form a union, at least you have some protection if you do it right.

obamanut2012

(25,911 posts)
123. I have interns, and if they did this, they would be fired, too
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:02 PM
Jun 2016

And, I am a very lenient, very reasonable, and very friendly boss. I LOVE working with kids this age, I love mentoring them, and helping them achieve their goals.

However...

My interns know my expectations and our policies. They are treated very well and paid decent, but if they pulled this? Gone. I have too many kids who want these jobs and want to actually learn something and be mentored to put up with this time wasting and ridiculous requests.

I would love to wear a t-shirt, running shorts, and flippies to work every day. Guess what? I can't, and knew that when I accepted the job offer.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
127. It was an ill-considered move on the part of the inters, but the comments here
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:17 PM
Jun 2016

...seem to me to be overly punitive. Some people are taking some undue satisfaction from this story, predicated on an unspoken and bunk notion that younger people don't compare favorably to middle aged and older people. That's just not true.

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
161. We have had generally good results with interns
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 06:07 PM
Jun 2016

.... like everyone else there's good , there's bad and most are in between.

Have had an absolutely horrible intern this summer .... due to the particular circumstances surrounding her hire we are looking at her internship as a $6,500 bill for the cost of doing business. her actions sound very similar to the spirit of the interns in the OP

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
244. I never said I was. But please, do show me one post that suggests young people do not compare
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 11:43 AM
Jul 2016

favorably to older people.

You appear to be projecting on me the fact that you are putting words in the mouths of others.

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
138. "I may only be an intern but by gosh and by golly, you're doing it WRONG and things WILL change!"
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:40 PM
Jun 2016

"I am here to see to it."

Yup.

meaculpa2011

(918 posts)
139. My niece has had 12 jobs...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 04:42 PM
Jun 2016

in the past 10 years.

Before she's been through orientation, she already knows everything the company is doing wrong.

Employers love that.

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
178. Lol. When I was hired out of graduate school I was warned to nottry to change anything for 2 years
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:09 PM
Jun 2016

The warning was worded just like that. My interviewer said there are lots of things that need changing, but just don't say anything until the PTB trust you and that will take 2 years. He was right.

obamanut2012

(25,911 posts)
188. That is really, really sound advice
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:41 PM
Jun 2016

They need to trust you, and know you consider yourself a stakeholder in the company, and the critique/suggestions are coming from a thoughtful place.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
185. "special snowflakes" derp
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:35 PM
Jun 2016

I'm gonna take a wild guess that the "industry" in question is on the East Coast, and it involves some shit like moving other peoples' money around in less-than-transparent ways.

On the other side of the country where people actually make and sell innovative products that folks actually use, no one gives a flying half a fuck what people wear to work, as long as they're competent.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
199. Yep. It's the truth.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 09:39 PM
Jun 2016

In the places where actual innovation is taking place, no one gives a fuck about suits and ties. The truly valuable people in Silicon Valley come to work every day in sweats.

"tradition" is shorthand for "we are out of ideas"

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
204. 10 years ago there was a BBC documentary about the history of video games...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 09:57 PM
Jun 2016

...And Nolan Bushnell was recalling about how laid-back and easy-going things were at Atari in it's early years before he sold the company. Bushnell was kept on at Atari after he sold the company but was soon sacked because he angrily resisted the big-wigs trying to "tighten up" the behavior of employees. A bunch of angry workers left to form the company Activision and soon after Atari was fucked when the 1983 video game crash happened.

Haveadream

(1,630 posts)
186. I would replace the intern with someone truly motivated to work at the company
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:39 PM
Jun 2016

rather than someone who took it for granted. Employment is competitive and good jobs are at a premium. Getting a foot in the door (no pun intended) in a profession of your choosing is a luxury afforded to few. She threw away that opportunity just to make an irrelevant point. I would fire her not so much for the insubordination but the stupidity, lousy work ethic and lack of ability to learn even the basics of their corporate culture. The only thing I blame the employer for is giving her too much free time to waste on nonsense like this rather than being productive.

No sympathy for this one.

 

Jim Beard

(2,535 posts)
195. They are lucky to find out early they wouldn't want to work for that company anyway.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 09:17 PM
Jun 2016

Shit, I like it when when I have employees bring these things to my attention. I really hate the way we have made women spend their producing having to hassle with walking on stilts. (High Heels)

Bought two investment properties a couple of months ago and I complimented the lady employee for her choice in flat footwear.

dilby

(2,273 posts)
198. Remember when women were expected to dress feminine and sexy in the office?
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 09:36 PM
Jun 2016

But anyways hopefully these kids will look at other avenues for dealing with corporate America like looking into Unions and how a Union would have addressed this.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
227. I don't know whether to laugh my ass off or be terrified. I honestly don't.
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 12:37 AM
Jul 2016

Right wing memes are so damned pathetic. I can't tell if some of the posters in this thread are trolling or serious.

Parody or reality???

I asked above, in a reply to another poster, how would you like to tell YOUR boss you fired all the interns in a dispute over footwear.



In the real world, not bizarro authoritarian wingnut world, firing all the interns would get YOU fired too.

But I don't know, maybe in bizarro authoritarian wingnut world shit like this happens every day.

And maybe all those letters to Penthouse were real too!!!

"I often fantasize about having sex with men in uniform, but I never thought this would happen to me..."











 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
228. They were fired because their group gathering was way too much like a union
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 12:41 AM
Jul 2016

and management wanted to bust them fast.

romanic

(2,841 posts)
236. A petition at work, by interns???
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 01:37 AM
Jul 2016


That's hilarious. I'm sorry but the interns truly were special snowflakes. They knew the job had a dress code and agreed to it upon being hired. You have no say as to what your employer expects of you. They learned the hard way.

GOLGO 13

(1,681 posts)
239. Special snowflakes got their first taste of corporate culture.
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 08:39 AM
Jul 2016

Not everyone will be treated all the same. Therefore, OBEY & shut your face. No sympathy from me.

Ilsa

(61,675 posts)
243. My "superiors" at work used to make fun or me for wearing sneakers with my suit from
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 11:32 AM
Jul 2016

the parking lot to the office, a distance of over 1/4 mile. The following year, it looked like most women were wearing them to walk into work in NYC. I had ruined at least 2 pairs of shoes trying to be in dress codein the parking lot.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
249. I used to do that, shoes for office, shoes for running about. Not in NYC, but similar circumstances.
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 01:40 PM
Jul 2016

One day I forgot to change my shoes and wore my red Chuck Taylor High Tops into the office.

My boss looked me up and down and I could tell she was trying not to laugh. It took me a second to catch on.



Fortunately I was well regarded in my work, and considered a bit eccentric otherwise. But even then, what's the big deal?


Response to Heeeeers Johnny (Original post)

ibegurpard

(16,685 posts)
250. judging by the responses in this thread
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 06:11 PM
Jul 2016

I'd say a name change is in order for this board. Authoritarian Underground anyone? Since when do we cheer the firing of underlings making proposals to their employers?
Oh and all hail the gig economy!

 

FixTheProblem

(22 posts)
255. People like myself don't matter much to anyone, it seems...
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 06:31 PM
Jul 2016

I'll vote for Clinton, then I guess I'll go commit suicide, since I can't get a job due to my depression, and all everyone, even liberals, do is laugh at me. There certainly isn't any help out there.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
254. The "special snowflakes" are the East Coast three-piece finance people who make their livings
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 06:28 PM
Jul 2016

Ripping off the retirement funds of old folks with shady-ass "creative investment vehicles".

Then, when they crash the economy with their fraudulent crap, we the taxpayers bail them out.

"Entitlement", amirite?

But they're wearing brooks brothers suits, so ....they must be legit.

Dress code intern should learn to code, move out west and get a job with a tech company that actually makes shit people buy...

and where no one will even think about giving a fuck what outfit he or she wears to work.

 

FixTheProblem

(22 posts)
259. This country (and captalism) are in a rude awakening
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 06:47 PM
Jul 2016

Millennials REFUSE to be slaves, and WILL NOT TOLERATE being abused. They DEMAND respect and they will get it or else they'll tell their "job creator" to go pound sand.

Why is it that whenever a young person stands up for his/herself and refuses to be treated like horse shit, then they're "lazy" or "spoiled" or a "special snowflake?" Why is it whenever someone mindlessly submits to whatever abuse their "job creator" wants, then it's called "being an adult" or "having responsibility?"

FUCK that!

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
261. An office dress code is not "being treated like horse shit." Brattines is not "demanding respect."
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 08:16 PM
Jul 2016

It's just brattiness.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
263. When you go to work
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 09:38 PM
Jul 2016

and you want a decent salary, expect it to be necessary to dress nicely. That's just the way it works.

How damn hard is it to wear a decent pair of shoes? There are plenty of them that are comfortable and tasteful out there. I wear running shoes ... for running.

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