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Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:32 AM

Please, please stop spreading the lie that Brexit was to fight against neoliberalism

Britain is neoliberal.

Britain is neoliberal with gusto.

Britain is more neoliberal than the rest of the EU.

Britain is an importing country that generates profit by attracting money and providing financial services to the owners of said money.

Where do all the russian millionaires go? London.
Where do all the greek millionaires go? London.
What is a financial hub of world-wide importance? London.

To repeat: Britain is more neoliberal than the rest of the EU.




So how, by Lucifer's tailed posterior, is a vote to separate neoliberal Britain from less capitalist countries a sign that Britain wants to get rid of neoliberalism?

Please stop lying to yourself.
This is getting embarassing.

144 replies, 25879 views

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Reply Please, please stop spreading the lie that Brexit was to fight against neoliberalism (Original post)
DetlefK Jun 2016 OP
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #1
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #6
rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #2
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #5
leveymg Jun 2016 #8
rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #9
leveymg Jun 2016 #13
whathehell Jun 2016 #27
appalachiablue Jun 2016 #31
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #19
pkdu Jun 2016 #30
leveymg Jun 2016 #86
pkdu Jun 2016 #90
leveymg Jun 2016 #92
pkdu Jun 2016 #93
leveymg Jun 2016 #95
pkdu Jun 2016 #116
leveymg Jun 2016 #117
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #124
leveymg Jun 2016 #125
leveymg Jun 2016 #127
leveymg Jun 2016 #128
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #129
leveymg Jun 2016 #135
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #136
leveymg Jun 2016 #137
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #138
leveymg Jun 2016 #140
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #141
leveymg Jun 2016 #142
leveymg Jun 2016 #143
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #144
pampango Jun 2016 #33
Marr Jun 2016 #57
Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2016 #59
appalachiablue Jun 2016 #91
leveymg Jun 2016 #94
appalachiablue Jun 2016 #98
LWolf Jun 2016 #3
rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #10
DetlefK Jun 2016 #23
LWolf Jun 2016 #28
appalachiablue Jun 2016 #32
DetlefK Jun 2016 #42
LWolf Jun 2016 #66
DetlefK Jun 2016 #112
seabeckind Jun 2016 #114
LWolf Jun 2016 #120
laundry_queen Jun 2016 #134
pampango Jun 2016 #37
LWolf Jun 2016 #62
pampango Jun 2016 #73
LWolf Jun 2016 #79
pampango Jun 2016 #88
LWolf Jun 2016 #96
pampango Jun 2016 #99
Hortensis Jun 2016 #68
pampango Jun 2016 #76
Hortensis Jun 2016 #100
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #63
LWolf Jun 2016 #69
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #89
LWolf Jun 2016 #97
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #115
LWolf Jun 2016 #121
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #122
leveymg Jun 2016 #4
rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #7
leveymg Jun 2016 #11
rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #12
AntiBank Jun 2016 #14
rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #16
AntiBank Jun 2016 #21
pampango Jun 2016 #40
AntiBank Jun 2016 #45
pampango Jun 2016 #52
AntiBank Jun 2016 #65
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #18
AntiBank Jun 2016 #22
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #35
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #26
appalachiablue Jun 2016 #41
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #46
appalachiablue Jun 2016 #85
leveymg Jun 2016 #107
yourpaljoey Jun 2016 #39
leveymg Jun 2016 #108
yourpaljoey Jun 2016 #110
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #130
leveymg Jun 2016 #131
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #132
n2doc Jun 2016 #15
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #49
runaway hero Jun 2016 #17
DetlefK Jun 2016 #24
pampango Jun 2016 #44
runaway hero Jun 2016 #101
pampango Jun 2016 #103
runaway hero Jun 2016 #104
pampango Jun 2016 #105
runaway hero Jun 2016 #106
modem77 Jun 2016 #20
joshcryer Jun 2016 #25
Teamster Jeff Jun 2016 #29
Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2016 #70
Recursion Jun 2016 #119
Teamster Jeff Jun 2016 #126
YoungDemCA Jun 2016 #34
pampango Jun 2016 #50
leveymg Jun 2016 #111
LeftishBrit Jun 2016 #36
appalachiablue Jun 2016 #43
J_J_ Jun 2016 #74
LeftishBrit Jun 2016 #82
still_one Jun 2016 #83
appal_jack Jun 2016 #38
Rex Jun 2016 #47
Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #48
Post removed Jun 2016 #55
DetlefK Jun 2016 #54
Stinky The Clown Jun 2016 #51
fbc Jun 2016 #53
DetlefK Jun 2016 #58
LWolf Jun 2016 #72
Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2016 #56
Exilednight Jun 2016 #77
Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2016 #87
Exilednight Jun 2016 #102
Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2016 #109
fasttense Jun 2016 #60
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #71
fasttense Jun 2016 #75
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #78
fasttense Jun 2016 #81
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #84
jtuck004 Jun 2016 #61
Dustbowl Observer Jun 2016 #64
Saviolo Jun 2016 #67
fasttense Jun 2016 #80
Odin2005 Jun 2016 #113
pampango Jun 2016 #118
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #123
proverbialwisdom Jun 2016 #133
Blue_Tires Jun 2016 #139

Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:36 AM

1. Add to that:

The UK (or what's left of it) WILL BECOME EVEN MORE NEOLIBERAL THAN IT OR THE EU ARE NOW as it slashes whatever regulations and workers' rights it can get away with in an effort to compete with the other European countries for investment.

Hell, that was a plank of the Leave campaign! "We can't make our own laws. Europe is holding us back, strangling us in red tape. Take back control!"

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:43 AM

6. + 10000000

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)


Response to rjsquirrel (Reply #2)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:42 AM

5. Amen n/t

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Response to rjsquirrel (Reply #2)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:46 AM

8. The vote was a whole lot less about "bigoted nostalgia" than about pensions, or the loss of them.

The ageism and bogus identity politics arguments that have crept into the neoliberal side of the debate are truly hopeless.

Do you truly think Brexit would have passed if most Britons were looking forward to a comfortable retirement?

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Response to leveymg (Reply #8)


Response to rjsquirrel (Reply #9)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:57 AM

13. They care a whole lot less about them than those who are facing poverty in old age.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #13)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:04 AM

27. Thank you....n/t

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Response to leveymg (Reply #13)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:21 AM

31. Your comments are always much appreciated.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #8)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:15 AM

19. Pensions? I didn't hear pensions mentioned once in the campaign

There's been the odd mention after, such as "oh fuck, the stock market's down, what'll that do to my pension?", but no one was claiming they'd get a better pension outside the EU. No one has been suggesting it would allow an increase in the state pension.

Some people think that keeping EU citizens out will mean more jobs for Brits. Most think the economy will suffer overall. You appear to have seen the figures saying it's older people who wanted to leave, and decided that they must have had an honorable reason for that, so you've claimed they were thinking about pensions. But there's no evidence for that.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #8)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:07 AM

30. Nice try - Scotland? Northern Ireland? any answer yet?

Clue: Pensions isn't it

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Response to pkdu (Reply #30)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 01:17 PM

86. I already answered that. Like Ireland, Scotland and N Ire gain from EU and global investment

Last edited Mon Jun 27, 2016, 04:50 PM - Edit history (3)

and may more so now with the withdrawal of England from the EU.

The impact of globalization on poverty has been by no means evenly distributed across the EU and the UK. The post-industrial Midlands and South, other than the City of London, have seen massive loss of unionized jobs -- you know, the type that used to be stable and had benefits, including pensions -- after decades of neoliberal restructuring, plant closures, and underemployment, people are becoming desperate. Underemployment and declining benefits particularly impact aging workers in the Midlands and South who tend to retire later, as this map shows:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/

In addition, the geographic breakdown of the Brexit vote tends to follow incomes. Lower income persons tended to vote to Leave, as the maps below and at the bottom show. That is particularly clear in post-industrial Manchester and the East Midlands, the epicenter of the Leave vote, which is also now the poorest part of England.


The result of globalization has been real wage decline and dire prospects for many as successive British governments have also cut back on the social support network. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/dec/04/british-workers-suffered-biggest-real-wage-fall-major-g20-countries


The decline in real wages and underemployment is more acute in the post-industrial areas that voted to Leave. Economic insecurity, particularly afflicting an aging population across areas once reliant on manufacturing across England, is what drove Brexit, and it fully explains the geographical and age group breakdown of the results.

https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=&w=1484

Compare

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Response to leveymg (Reply #86)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 01:33 PM

90. Thats a bullshit answer , Scotland and N.I. have been impacted just as much if not more so

in the "massive loss of unionized jobs -- you know, the type that used to be stable and had benefits, including pensions -- after decades of neoliberal restructuring, plant closures, and underemployment" as you put it.

They get same help as all other areas of UK and EU from "EU and Global investment".

Have you ever lived in Northern Ireland or Scotland? I have lived in both , still have close family in both.

Take your Pitchfork and Torches populism views onto another topic. This one is a FAIL.

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Response to pkdu (Reply #90)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 01:58 PM

92. Take a look at these maps of UK income distribution and the Brexit vote





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Response to leveymg (Reply #92)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 02:07 PM

93. Take a look at the color of NI in your own graphic! FAIL (again)

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Response to pkdu (Reply #93)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 02:11 PM

95. The general pattern seems to line up otherwise. Agree?

Northern Ireland is wedded at the hip to England, largely for religious and historical reasons, and may be a special case.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #95)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 08:53 PM

116. Nope...you are just plain wrong...look at all the expression of voters exiting below...especially

Immigration and Capitalism


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Response to pkdu (Reply #116)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 09:54 AM

117. See #111. The close split on capitalism most closely reflects the outcome of the referendum.

Given that neoliberalism and capitalism are virtually the same thing, I would argue that this poll means just the opposite of what you think it does. The referendum was a closely fought rejection of the economic outcomes of several decades of neoliberal policy.

Social wedge issues are important politically, but Brexit was really about the failures of globalized capitalism and governments to cope. If there were plenty of stable jobs with generous benefits and pensions, or if public services were adequate, there would never have been any real urge to Leave.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #117)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 03:44 PM

124. No, the close split on capitalism means that capitalism has nothing to do with the referendum

It means that there's no correlation, positive or negative, between the way someone voted and their opinion on capitalism. If, for instance, you asked "how did people with surnames starting A-G vote, and how did H-Z vote?", and they came out 51-49 and 51-49, then you'd say "ah, as we expected, they both voted the same - surname had no effect on the vote". That's what's happened here.

What the graphic does show is a good positive correlation between voting Leave and thinking multiculturalism, immigration, and social liberalism are a force for ill, and almost as strong a correlation for feminism, the green movement, and globalisation. The significant preference of those thinking the internet is a force for ill for 'Leave' is not matched by a similar difference in the 'force for good' column, which indicates that there's not that many who do think it a force for ill - but if they do, they tended to vote for Leave.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #124)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 03:58 PM

125. Last name order is purely random. But, opinion on capitalism is relevant to one's Brexit vote

and where in the country one voted. I would surmise the correlation is fairly strong in some areas - those who support capitalism would probably be most prevalent in affluent neighborhoods in the City of London, which would correlate with a Stay vote.

On the other hand, I would also expect that unemployed union welders in Sunderland in the Northeast, the poorest part of England, were probably not big fans of capitalism, and that the correlation with a Leave vote would be strong there.

Elsewhere in the country, we would see a mixture, as the nearly 50/50 breakdown in both the vote and measured opinion on the subject suggests.

Unfortunately I don't see data broken down geographically for those survey questions. If you have that, please share. Thanks.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #124)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 04:25 PM

127. Downloaded the detailed data. Some interesting findings: Retired and unemployed were mostly Leavers

Last edited Tue Jun 28, 2016, 05:20 PM - Edit history (1)

(L/S) Retired on state pension: 69/31; Retired on private pension: 56/44; Working FT: 47/53; Working P/T: 49/51 Not working but seeking work: 59/41; Student 41/59; Housepersons: 62/38 Overall: 52/48

Page 10 here: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #124)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 05:14 PM

128. Detailed data at Table 33 says you're wrong, Muriel. Poorer areas-Leave, poorer respondents-Leave.

"NET Capitalism a force for good" - Highest among more affluent older men in richer areas. Overall, only 39% like capitalism. No surprise there.

England 40%; Scotland 34%; Wales 38%; Northern Ireland 35%; Northwest 40%; Northeast 34%; Yorkshire & Humberside 37%; East Midlands 40%; West Midlands 40%; Eastern 38%; London 45%; Southeast 42%; Southwest 40%

Social Grade (most to least affluent): 47% 39% 33% 28%

Age (youngest to oldest groups): 47% 39% 33% 28%

Sex: M 47; F 33.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #128)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 05:58 PM

129. Those figures you've quoted aren't about Remain or Leave, though

(and you've copied the social grade figures into the age group by mistake - that should read "36% 37% 37% 35% 38% 47% "

This is about what goes along with the decision to Remain or Leave.

(for anyone else, here's the link to the detailed figures: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/How-the-UK-voted-Full-tables-1.pdf )

Take the figures for 'capitalism - good or ill' for Labour voters (I've taken Labour because I think we're thinking about people who vote similarly to ourselves) - Table 33, p.162
---- leave rem total
good 332 659 991
mix 408 704 1112
ill 500 793 1293

The ratio for those who think capitalism is good is about 2.0 remain for 1 leave; ill about 1.6. There's not much difference between the 2, with those who think capitalism good slightly more likely to vote Remain.

Now look at immigration Table 34 p.170
---- leave rem total
good 233 1372 1605
mix 298 509 807
ill 712 277 989

The ratio for those who think immigration is good is about 5.9 remain for 1 leave; ill about 0.4. There's a huge difference; those who think immigration is good are far more likely to have voted Remain, and those who think it's a force for ill far more likely to Leave. The opinions on multiculturalism show a similar pattern :

---- leave rem tot
good 436 1630 2066
mix 338 346 684
ill 467 181 648

Globalisation comes somewhere in the middle:

---- leave rem tot
good 436 1169 1605
mix 444 638 1082
ill 358 347 705

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #129)

Wed Jun 29, 2016, 08:02 AM

135. That merely obscures the data: Leave correlates strongly with class, employment, age,

and location. Attitudes toward capitalism are overwhelmingly negative, even in London, and the strength of that negative is a strong indicator of a rejection of neoliberalism in England and a Leave vote.

People in England -- particular pensioners, the unemployed or underemployed poorer, older men in the Midlands and South (except London) -- overwhelmingly don't feel well served by capitalism and neoliberal policies. It's really as simple as that.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #135)

Wed Jun 29, 2016, 09:11 AM

136. It correlates much more strongly with views against immigration and multiculturalism

And to say giving the actual figures "obscures the data", when a moment ago you were trying claim there's a correlation with the view on capitalism, is pretty laughable. You wanted to use capitalism as a proxy for neoliberalism; the figures show there is zero correlation, positive or negative, between support for capitalism and the vote.

You claim "attitudes toward capitalism are overwhelmingly negative, even in London". No, that's not true; for the whole country, 39% see it as a force for good, and 30% a force for ill. The only region where more think it a force for ill in is Scotland (34% good, 36% ill), and, despite your thesis, they voted Remain.

Men and women voted in exactly equal proportions for leave and remain (page 5); there's no point in talking about 'men'.

Yes, there's a correlation of 'Leave' with age (also p.5); there's also a correlation between age and attitudes about multiculturalism (pp.110-1), social liberalism (pp.118-9), the green movement (pp.134-5), globalisation (pp.142-3) and immigration (pp 166-7). For all of those, the older age groups are significantly more against them. Capitalism, on the other hand, is more popular with the older age groups (pp.158-9). What this shows is that older people are socially conservative and isolationist, but quite happy with capitalism.

You point to employment. Yes, those not working (who are primarily the retired) were large Leave voters. They were 45% of the poll. If we look at their attitudes to see if they are higher or lower than that in the political attitudes (p.51), we find, with 'good' and 'ill' pairs:

Multiculturalism 39% 51%
Social liberalism 40% 51%
feminism 42% 48%
green movement 41% 55%
globalisation 41% 49%
internet 44% 50%
capitalism 44% 46%
immigration 39% 49%

so they tend to dislike it all - even the internet. But the one that's closest is capitalism.

You really are totally wrong when you try to make this about capitalism. The figures are literally in front of you. Capitalism is the one attitude that has no correlation at all.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #136)

Wed Jun 29, 2016, 10:32 AM

137. The data does not show that older Britains are "quite happy with capitalism" Only 39% say

that overall capitalism is a "force for good" in the UK. That figure dips to less than 30% among unemployed persons, poor persons, and older people on pensions.

You're slicing the data at a median point (favorable or unfavorable) with dilutes the meaningfulness of the issue. Your approach weights results to emphasize the amorphous middle, the majority of people who are either ambivalent or don't have strong feelings about the subject, one way or the other. I think the bottom-line figures provided for various groups and their perception that it is not "a force for good" are a more meaningful measure of dissatisfaction.

If you aggregate across the entire sample group, you lose an important indicator of how strongly people feel about that issue and relative to other factors. Just because most older people are suspicous of the effects of the Internet, doesn't mean that it was a major deciding issue in their vote for Brexit. Not all factors weighed equally strongly to the outcome of a yes or no vote, and I don't see immediately a table that shows that. Did you find that?

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Response to leveymg (Reply #137)

Wed Jun 29, 2016, 11:33 AM

138. No, 39% is the overall capitalism 'good' figure; for 65+, it's 47%

(p.158). Sorry, but you don't get to make up your own figures for this. I'm not 'slicing the data'; I'm showing it, while you're misreading it. I'm not "emphasizing the amorphous middle"; I've said hardly anything about the middle, mostly comparing the people who think things are 'good' or 'ill', without using the 'mixed' figure. Now you're talking about strong feelings, which you haven't done before. But you're not actually saying anything about them, or pointing to figures; you're just asserting, without evidence, that results when considering 'strong feelings' are different from the figures I've quoted so far. You're moving the goalposts, and then not even looking at them. But since this thread is about the general reasons for why people voted 'Leave', we should be looking at general feelings, rather than just at people with particularly strong feelings.

No, not all factors are equally strong; that's why we've been looking for what attitudes are correlated with 'Leave'. And the answer is chiefly: opposition to multiculturalism, social liberalism, and immigration.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #138)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:22 PM

140. So, you didn't find anything that provides a ranking of these issues by importance?

You seem to have more time to spend on this than I do. If you've been through the complete data set, did you find a ranking? That would help to settle this.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #140)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:49 PM

141. No, nothing ranking those issues

q27 (p.256 onwards) did ask those voted 'Leave' to rank 4 possible reasons, but none is asking about 'capitalism' or 'neoliberalism' in any meaningful way.

"The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK"
"A feeling that voting to leave the EU offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders"
"The belief that when it comes to trade and the economy, the UK would benefit more from being outside the EU than from being part of it"
"A vote to remain was a vote for having little or no choice about how the EU expanded its membership or its powers in the years ahead"

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #141)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:59 PM

142. Seems to be a strange omission. I'll look later. Thanks.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #141)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:48 PM

143. An ORB poll showed 52/37 considered the UK economy a bigger issue than immigration

And, BTW, this June 10 poll got the overall results right.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poll-brexit-leave-campaign-10-point-lead-remain-boris-johnson-nigel-farage-david-a7075131.html

When considering how to vote, the economy is a bigger issue than immigration
Agree 52 per cent
Disagree 37 per cent
Don't know 11 per cent


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Response to leveymg (Reply #143)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 02:49 PM

144. That's the figures for everyone; Leave were 31% economy more important, 57% disagreeing

http://www.opinion.co.uk/perch/resources/orbindependent-friday-10th-june-final-data-tables.pdf

p.19.

When considering how to vote, the economy is a bigger issue than immigration
Remain:
Agree 76%
Disagree 14%
Don't know 11%

Leave:
Agree 31%
Disagree 57%
Don't know 11%

The questions about the economy weren't about capitalism, equality or neoliberalism; they were about whether the economy would be better ("The belief that when it comes to trade and the economy, the UK would benefit more from being outside the EU than from being part of it". And practically no Leave voters saw that as an important reason to vote Leave (in that q27, p256, only 6% gave that as their first reason for voting Leave).

That ORB poll is typical for polls before the election in saying that immigration was the most important reason for leaving - I thought that was generally known, and you were saying that something changed at the last minute in reasoning. Here's another pre-election poll (that gave as an overall result 40% Leave, 39% Remain, 14% Undecided, so was reasonably accurate: https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/pm-16-june-2016-tables.pdf

q14 p36; in a large list of important issues deciding their vote, Leavers gave:
52%: The number of immigrants coming into Britain
22%: Britain's ability to make its own laws
18%: The impact on Britain's economy
14%: Impact on public services/housing
10%: The cost of EU immigration on Britain's welfare system
7%: Cost of EU membership fees
5%: The impact on British jobs
Others under 5%.

This wasn't a wild guess on what was influencing the Leave vote that we made after Ashcroft's poll. We'd been saying it was immigration for weeks before.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #8)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:25 AM

33. The winners will create a "neoliberal fantasy island freed from EU regulations". Pensions are going

to get a whole lot less secure in the near future.

The ageism and bogus identity politics arguments that has crept into the neoliberal side of the debate are truly hopeless.

Conservatives would never think of perceiving people as immigrants vs native-born.

Conservatives do contend that liberals play the 'race card', the 'woman card', the 'gay card', the 'immigrant card'. It is good to know that liberals do not buy in to that.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #8)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:02 PM

57. +1, /nt

 

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Response to leveymg (Reply #8)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:10 PM

59. Pensions?! That's an invented angle. And it's not Ageism to show the very clear divide in the vote

NONE of the commentary I have read said anything about pensions. You seem to have invented the issue.

As it is, their pensions just got devalued, bigtime, because the stocks and the British Pound have all been badly devalued, as predicted before the vote.

Re the other bogus claim about "Ageism": this chart is very clear and it is not "ageism" to point out the obvious truth:




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Response to leveymg (Reply #8)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 01:57 PM

91. "Bigoted nostalgia", didn't see that, a new one and a variant of,

if you don't think Brexit terrible and neoliberalism great, then you're a racist and probably an older one. Got it I think.

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Response to appalachiablue (Reply #91)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 02:08 PM

94. There seem to be a lot of apologists for neoliberalism on DU, of late.

Their message: "Nothing to see here, move along."

Now, what would that coincide with?

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Response to leveymg (Reply #94)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 02:27 PM

98. Long Live Neoliberalism! The lengths gone to here to demolish

as inferior and primitive any and all things in the 1950s and the 1970s in the US, and now in 19th c. Britain are astounding. IOW, Before Reagan and the neoliberal agenda of all things commodities, there were no healthy economies or societies. Interesting.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:40 AM

3. Just because

you don't like it, doesn't make it a lie.

Neoliberalism is at the core of Brexit, Arab spring, events in Greece, and the general anger and unrest at home and abroad. And yes; racial bigots and xenophobes are affected, and therefore angry, too.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #3)


Response to LWolf (Reply #3)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:53 AM

23. And what evidence lead you to these conclusions???

Britons are pissed at those high on top, making the rules.

But how will Brexit change the fact that Britain is more neoliberal than the rest of the EU?
How is Brexit a victory against neoliberalism??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

And please, please, please don't tell me you are trying to high-jack the result of decades of colonial oppression, nationalistic disappointment, religious identy-seeking, corruption and tyranny for your political doctrine.

Oh, and Greece. Of course, Greece. Greece.
The country that falsified financial documents to enter the Euro.
The country that racked up gigantic debt with corruption, tax-evasion and government-spending it couldn't effort.
The country that continued sending falsified financial documents to its friends and allies at the EU.
The country that reacted with outrage when german finance-minister Schäuble insisted on an all-encompassing bailout-deal that would leave no way for Greece to weasel out of financial commitments again.
The country that became the rallying-cry for far-left conspiracy-theorists, because how dare the EU ignore the democratic will of millions of people who first erected a regime of tax-evasion, corruption and embezzlement and then complained that these very same millions of people have to face the consequences for that.

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #23)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:06 AM

28. I didn't say

that I agreed with Brexit as a response. Your first sentence: Britons are pissed at those (h)igh on top, making the rules. indicates that you understand that it's not about bigotry and xenophobia, but about something larger, that affects a broad spectrum of people that don't always get along.

That something larger is, at its core, neoliberalism.

Neoliberalism is not MY political doctrine.

It is a doctrine that has oppressed millions across the globe, and we have seen responses to that oppression across the globe.

Not all of those responses have been effective. There are a lot of ways to respond to a problem, and not all of those ways are smart, not all of those ways help, and even those that help move the issue forward toward eventual resolution aren't always successful in the moment. That doesn't erase the fact that the response to neoliberalism has been growing, that it is far-reaching, and that Brexit is one part of the whole.

What IS evident is this: the push against neoliberalism has grown to the point that it's not underground any more, and that leaves the neoliberals in power with an immediate need to respond. One of the responses is to offer themselves up as protection, as has been pointed out elsewhere in this forum. This is especially important in the U.S. at this time, since the Democratic Party is in the midst of a battle for party identity and power between establishment neoliberals and the forces pushing for change. I expect to see ubiquitous rationalization as that battle goes forward.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #28)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:24 AM

32. +5

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Response to LWolf (Reply #28)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:38 AM

42. But where is the connection?

I still don't see how somebody can draw a connection from Brexit to anti-neoliberalism.

If the british voters were against neoliberalism, why did they support neoliberalism domestically?
Or maybe the EU was just a convenient scapegoat for Britain's problems? "Well, let's just blame the EU for our economic problems."

And how can people outside of Britain say that Brexit is backlash against neoliberalism?
How could the Brexit possibly be a tool to defeat neoliberalism in Britain?

The rest of the EU is surely spared from Britain's neoliberal urges, but that's not what these people mean. Instead they are framing it that neoliberal Britain demanding independence from centrist EU is somehow a victory over neoliberalism.
If anything it's the other way round!!! Britain is now free from EU-meddling and can be as neoliberal as they want to be!!!

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #42)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:25 PM

66. There is an abundance of connections

available for anyone who really wants them, including some discussed right here on the front page of this forum. See below.

Many, many Democrats have supported U.S. neoliberalism with their votes. Repeatedly. For a wide variety of reasons, most of which are not an actual support of neoliberalism. Why would you assume it to be different in GB? Also...I don't think I said Brexit is/was a tool to defeat neoliberalism in Britain. It's a reaction, not a tool. And, of course, Brexit may or may not be an effective reaction. But a reaction it is.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027959024

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027954332

http://www.globalresearch.ca/brexit-as-working-class-rebellion-against-neoliberalism-and-free-trade/5532860

http://www.socialistworkeronline.net/brexit-a-blow-against-austerity-and-neoliberalism/

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/06/brexit-the-crisis-begins.html

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Response to LWolf (Reply #66)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 04:31 PM

112. Let's see:

The source in your first link talks about the "willfull destruction of Yugoslavia" by the West, conveniently forgetting a genocidal civil-war that was only stopped by NATO bombing the shit out of the serbian army. The author clearly has an agenda and won't let facts get in the way of a good story. No thanks.

Your second link makes good points why the EU is neoliberal, but neglects to talk about the UK and what its stance on neoliberalism is. Do they like it? Do they oppose it? The EU is predominantly Christian. Does that mean that Brexit was a vote to leave Christianity?

Quote from your third link: "So Brexit becomes a proxy vote for all the discontent with the UK austerity, benefit cuts, poor quality job creation and wage stagnation." => The EU was scapegoated for the neoliberal policies of the UK.
The article also mentions that predominantly working-class-people voted for Brexit... which would be a good statistical discriminator if it hadn't turned out that many, many british voters were utterly misinformed and ignorant about facts surrounding the vote.
The rest of the article keeps talking about the EU and neglects to talk about the UK and what its stance on neoliberalism is.
(Am I mistaken, or is the author indirectly pleading that the EU become a socialist super-state who regulates trade between countries on an individual basis so that the spoils of economic profit get spread evenly?)

From the fourth article: "Over the last two years we have seen the EU for what it really is – a prison house for workers that imposes austerity and fosters racism and xenophobia."
Indeed. The EU is fostering racism and xenophobia with free travel between countries that tried to literally kill each other 75 years ago. With exchange-programs and cultural programs that bring people together. With providing a forum where all countries can discuss issues on a regular basis. Yeah... that's how one furthers racism and xenophobia. The Neonazis are doing it wrong: If they really want to attract voters, they should organize cultural exchange-programs.
Next, the article brings up Greece: A country that has been living beyond its means and cooking its books for decades, dutifully supported by greek voters throughout the times. But now as the chickens come home to roost, it's poor, widdle, innocent Greece. Where was the greek outcry to get rid of the embezzlement and corruption in everyday-life? Where was the greek resistance? Instead they pocketed the cash and kept their mouths shut because they got their share. And now they complain that the greek economy is in shambles? Because of their fuck-stupid decision to vote for corrupt capitalists over and over and over again!!!
Up next we have a misrepresentation of the refugee-situation in the EU.
And after that, the article mentions that the Brexit was a proxy-vote against the establishment and the economic policies of Britain's own politicians, yet still manages to place the blame for Britain's political decisions on the EU.

From the fifth article: "Brexit is a crippling blow to the neoliberal order of unfettered trade and capital flows, and citizens being reduced to being consumers who have to fend for themselves in markets, and worse, increasingly isolated worker who are at the mercy of capitalists..."
Yes, Brexit is a blow to trade and capital flows (and the UK will suffer economically from that isolationist stance). But was this isolation intended as a blow against trade or as a blow against far-away rulers? Don't forget: The UK has always liked to bash the EU, even at the best of times, and (to repeat myself) many people who voted for Brexit were simply misinformed.
How many Brexit-voters have actually said that they are voting Brexit because of the economy???

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Response to LWolf (Reply #28)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 05:50 PM

114. I think the misunderstanding is over the basic ambiguity of neoliberalism

It is 2 ideologies that reside inside a single package. And many people tend too see either one or the other, but not their intertwining.

Neoliberalism is Milton Freidmann economics tucked inside a liberal political doctrine. It's reaganomics trickledown with a socially liberal bow on it.

Looking at each part, just what is the political doctrine behind the economic beliefs? None. It is apolitical. It has no ideology. It is neither conservative nor liberal.

OTOH the bow is most definitely liberal.

So when people are handed this package, some will be opposed to the economic policies because that is pure 1%, advance the upper class in search of profits.

That means those people opposed to trickledown will find it very unpalatable, no matter their political leanings.

As for the bow, conservatives won't like that part because of the liberal immigration issues, social equalities, etc.

That's why Brexit was embraced by the conservatives (the bow) and those who haven't reaped any of the benefits of the economic policies.

Exactly what is happening in this country. Exactly.

And somebody better be paying attention because these 2 groups will join.

BTW, FDR was pure anti-trickledown, he was trickleup. Shove money in the bottom and it gets spread around. He tended to be a socially conservative but that was a minor side issue to recovering the economic side.

Good luck.

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Response to seabeckind (Reply #114)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 01:11 PM

120. Yes.

Neoliberals exploit that "2 ideologies in one." They focus on the social doctrine, keeping that at the forefront of attention, while assuring those worried about those social issues that their economic policies are "pragmatic."

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Response to seabeckind (Reply #114)

Wed Jun 29, 2016, 01:57 AM

134. +1 nt

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Response to LWolf (Reply #3)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:33 AM

37. "Neoliberalism is at the core of Brexit". No, pure bred conservativism is at the core of Brexit.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it a lie.

And just because you want to believe it was caused by neoliberalism, does not make it true. There is plenty of polling data that shows that immigration was the main issue for the Leave side and that Leave voters were largely right and far-right voters. Liberals campaigned for and voted for Remain.

You can blame liberals if that fits your worldview, but actual polling data shows that good old fashioned conservatism and xenophobia were the key factors. Conservatives won and they will get rid of "cumbersome" EU regulations and become a "neoliberal fantasy island" (Boris Johnson's words'.

If neoliberalism were at the core of Brexit, the drive for Leave would not have been led a 'neoliberal supporter' like Johnson and opposed by Corbyn, Sanders and British unions.

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Response to pampango (Reply #37)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:18 PM

62. No.

The economic policies that have spurred global unrest are not conservative policies. They are neoliberal. It is typical for so-called "centrist" Democrats to try to frame everything in terms of the conservative enemy. In the case of social justice...those ARE conservative problems. Neoliberalism is an economic agenda.

And yes. I blame economic liberals, because their economic policies are what widens the economic and class gaps.

Also, nowhere will you find me saying that bigotry and xenophobia did not play a part. That's actually an important point. The neoliberal economic disasters hit all sides, except, of course the 1%. Social conservatives are also affected, and are also rising up against the establishment.

We can get rid of neoliberalism, or we can continue to undermine our own support, while feeding the rise of fascism on the conservative right.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #62)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:36 PM

73. Baloney. FDR was neither neoliberal nor conservative. Sweden is not neoliberal nor conservative now.

Ronald Reagan and George Bush were not neoliberal. They were conservative.

We can follow the policies of FDR, as Sweden does, and our middle class will prosper. We can follow the policies of Ronald Regan and Margaret Thatcher and our middle class will continue to suffer.

We need high/progressive taxes, a strong safety net, legal support for strong unions, effective business regulation and engagement with the rest of the globe. FDR did and Sweden does all of these. Conservatives do not.

If you do not perceive of conservatism as the enemy that explains a lot. If you don't think that the ranks of bigots and xenophobes are dominated by conservatives, we disagree fundamentally.

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Response to pampango (Reply #73)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:47 PM

79. wtf



What does FDR have to do with Brexit???

Is this an attempt to distract?

I agree that FDR was neither neoliberal NOR conservative. I agree that his policies are better for most of us. Isn't that the point I've been making? That we need different policies, not neoliberal policies? AND that neoliberal policies have been hurting people, giving birth to unrest and resistance from both liberals and conservatives? That waking up a conservative movement brings the rise of fascism in response?

I'm sorry if you haven't understood.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #79)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 01:18 PM

88. FDR viewed conservatives as the enemy. He welcomed their hatred.

It is typical for so-called "centrist" Democrats to try to frame everything in terms of the conservative enemy. In the case of social justice...those ARE conservative problems. Neoliberalism is an economic agenda.

I think FDR viewed conservatives as the enemy in economic matters as well as in social justice matters. I agree with him.

... neoliberal policies have been hurting people, giving birth to unrest and resistance from both liberals and conservatives?

And yet it was the conservatives who campaigned for and voted for Brexit not the liberals. What happened to the "unrest and resistance" from liberals if Brexit was about resistance to neoliberalism?

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Response to pampango (Reply #88)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 02:14 PM

96. Neoliberalism

had not made a comeback during FDRs tenure. Teddy helped bring regulated capitalism to the table during the progressive era.

Why would FDR talk about neoliberalism, when it was not the issue of his era?

Neoliberalism hurts everyone but the 1%, conservatives included. Why are the conservatives voting against the establishment in larger numbers? I'm not sure, but it's clearly happening here in the U.S. as well.

This situation is not a simplistic, linear, "liberal vs conservative" issue.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #96)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 02:42 PM

99. FDR talked a lot about conservatism because it was an issue of his era. It still is, IMHO.

Why would FDR talk about neoliberalism, when it was not the issue of his era?

Agreed. He would have had no reason to. Of course to him, regressive taxes, shredded safety nets, weak unions, deregulation, high tariffs and isolationism were conservative policies. So he talked a lot about how wrong conservatives were.

He worked to raise taxes and make them more progressive; strengthen business regulations; provide legal support for unions, improve the safety net, reduce tariffs to increase trade, etc. He was reversing the conservative policies of his republican predecessors who lowered taxes and made them more regressive, deregulated business, resisted and broke unions, ignored the safety net, increased tariffs to decrease trade and later created international organizations (UN, IMF, World Bank, ITO) to engage with the world.

Neoliberalism hurts everyone but the 1%, conservatives included.

Conservatism hurts everyone too, except for the 1%, conservatives included.

Why are the conservatives voting against the establishment in larger numbers? I'm not sure, but it's clearly happening here in the U.S. as well.

"I'm not sure ..." I have some thoughts. If Brexit supporters were motivated by a rejection of neoliberalism, liberals would have been voting for Brexit at similar or higher rates than conservatives. (Liberals are at least as smart as conservatives at figuring out complicated issues.) If the Brexit supporters were more motivated by anti-immigrant, anti-multiculturalism, anti-social liberalism, anti-Green movement and anti-feminist sentiments, you would find that conservatives voted for Brexit and liberals voted to Remain in the EU.

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Response to pampango (Reply #37)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:27 PM

68. Neoliberalism is a socioeconomic CONSERVATIVE LIBERTARIANISM.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #68)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:46 PM

76. Thanks for the definition. That does not prove anything with respect to Brexit. Polling date shows

that conservatives (anti-immigrant, anti-multiculturalism, anti-social liberalism, anti-environment, anti-feminism) supported Brexit. My belief is that conservatives can be xenophobic, reactionary bigots without any help from liberals, neoliberals, socialists, communists or anyone else.

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Response to pampango (Reply #76)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 02:44 PM

100. Most people have no idea what neoliberalism is,

including the vast majority throwing the word around here. No accident--it's just one more element in the ongoing ultraconservative plot to remove their opposition.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #3)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:21 PM

63. Except

Brexit was led by the right and drew it's support primarily from the right i.e. people who are either perfectly OK with the neo-liberal establishment (except for the immigration) or, indeed, would like it be even more neo-liberal (without the immigration)







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Response to TubbersUK (Reply #63)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:28 PM

69. Trump is led on the right.

The anti-establishment anger that has fed his rise, though, can be sourced, in large part, by the damage done to the working class in the U.S. by neoliberalism.

That doesn't make Trump supporters smart, principled, correct, or making good decisions. It does point out, though, that one consequence of continued neoliberal policy is a rise of fascism on the right.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #69)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 01:19 PM

89. But Conservative voters are predominantly MIDDLE class

and among the higher income groups and predominantly homeowners.

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Response to TubbersUK (Reply #89)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 02:22 PM

97. I would start by

determining exactly what kind of conservatism you're talking about.

And I'd point out that there are generations of working poor that are conservative; I've been surrounded by them my entire life.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #97)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 06:10 PM

115. Sure, there are some, but they're Conservative voters nonetheless

Last edited Mon Jun 27, 2016, 07:54 PM - Edit history (1)

and hardly anti-establishment.

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Response to TubbersUK (Reply #115)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 01:13 PM

121. Plenty of conservatives are anti-establishment.

They just go after a different part of the establishment.

The anti-government, anti-intellectual bent is conservative.

It really isn't possible to break the world's humanity down into two monolithic groups, politically, or in any other arena. We just don't fit that binary view.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #121)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 01:35 PM

122. "The anti-government, anti-intellectual bent is conservative. "

It certainly can be.

That's why Thatcher became a goddess to so many of them.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:41 AM

4. The City of London is neoliberal with a gusto. The rest of England a lot less so, obviously.

The vote shows the divide between those who still make a nice living in financial markets and trade with Europe, and those who have lost their shirts.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #4)


Response to rjsquirrel (Reply #7)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:55 AM

11. Scotland's economy is more tied to Europe than the English Midlands and South. And Separatism.

Same thing with Northern Ireland.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #11)


Response to rjsquirrel (Reply #7)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:58 AM

14. Scotland is simple to expain. They were sitting in the catbird's seat.

 

Holyrood and the Scots people themselves got back far more advantages from from Westminster and the EU than they had to give up compared to many other nations and many of the English people.

2 examples, one interal UK, one EU wise:

1. A Scot who goes to an English uni pays thousands of pounds less than an English student does for the exact same degree.

2. Scotland itself is incredibly export driven, and the EU gave many concessions and protections for such things as Scottish whisky and Scottish smoked salmon.

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #14)



Response to AntiBank (Reply #21)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:36 AM

40. As progressive countries will do. They voted to Remain. Smart move on their part.

Your link to the RW Daily Mail did not work for me.

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Response to pampango (Reply #40)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:47 AM

45. the link works and it has no political bias

 

in terms of showing what the poster asked for (in a suspiciously challenging sort of way I might add)

they could have looked it up themselves, but chose to be passive agressive snarky about it


btw, a shame the US "progressive party" has dont next to nothing about removing or dramtically lowering uni fees

was one of the many reasons I supported Sanders

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #45)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:54 AM

52. I agree that Scotland and Sanders are both progressive on lowering college fees. Both were Remain

supporters as well.

The link still does not work for me. Must be my browser.

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Response to pampango (Reply #52)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:23 PM

65. here is newer article about the fees

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/tuition-fees-divide-changes-the-way-students-in-scotland-and-england-view-their-education-10502074.html

Blair introduced them. There is a lot of resentment in the divide between Scots v English students at the same unis. I saw it first hand during my away semester at Imperial College.

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #14)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:15 AM

18. Scot here.

Last edited Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:23 AM - Edit history (1)

The vote was 60%-plus Remain. Like the rest of the UK, some of our areas that currently rely most heavily on EU support the UK government won't give them to provide infrastructure etc. voted most enthusiastically for Leave, so we're not short of people willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces.

Immigration didn't gain such traction up here. We came through a very intense referendum process. While this tired people out, it also made it easier to see through some of the stupid rhetoric, because we'd been exposed to it before, often in reverse by the same people arguing against what they'd said two years ago!

We're generally more aware of the benefits of EU membership, along with its pitfalls, and how we have to balance them against each other.

We're also not prey to the little Englander mentality. Farage said immediately after the result that they "taken England back!" Note: England, not the UK. That's largely what this was all about for too many on the Leave side.

Mainstream Scottish nationalism, as far as it exists, is civic nationalism, not based on race or color or where you were born. It can come across as anti-English sometimes, but mainly in reaction to Westminster dominance and the sorts of views some English people hold and aren't embarrassed to voice. We have plenty of English people living here. They either go native or just go about their business largely unhindered.

Those advantages you mention have been hard-earned. Tuition fees, which Scottish students don't have to pay (as was generally the case in the whole UK in years gone by, before Thatcher) have to funded out of the pot Scotland's allowed by Westminster, so we set our own priorities on some matters and have to balance the books accordingly.

Our representation in the EU is hampered by having to go through Westminster. For instance, we have 60% of the UK's fishing fleet, but haven't been allowed Scottish representation in EU fisheries policy negotiations because the UK government sees it as a cheap bargaining chip for other things they consider more important. That's more what ties together both strains (though Scotland's not monolithic) of separatism and independence within Europe.

Of course, Europe is changing even as we type, as is the UK. There's a lot of uncertainly ahead.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #18)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:47 AM

22. thanks for the detailed reply, you echo many of my Scottish mates

 

If there is a 2nd referendum on Scottish independence (I already assume you are EU Remain 100%) will you vote for leaving the UK?

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #22)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:28 AM

35. I'm not really anything 100%!

The EU's deeply flawed, and as events pan out, I may not want anything to do with it by the time the question's put. I believe that goes for our government in Scotland, too, because they're not crazy, but it's an option they have to pursue right now. This is the thing: they have made sure they have options ready to explore: Plan A, Plan, B, etc. Leave and the UK government don't even have a Plan A.

As things stand, I will vote Yes for the second time in a Scottish independence referendum. I did so with severe reservations last time. Those reservations are far less severe now, not that any of the options ahead are what I'd have wanted in an ideal world.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #18)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:02 AM

26. Spot on

This in particular:

We're also not prey to the little Englander mentality. Farage said immediately after the result that they "taken England back!" Note: England, not the UK. That's largely what this was all about for too many on the Leave side.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #18)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:36 AM

41. Thanks for the input, interesting. Like the way you described civic nationalism.

It's admirable that Scottish University students are subsidized, the way it was in the US prior to Reaganomics.
Spent a semester at Cambridge, and later traveled back to England and Dublin. Scotland is for the next trip.

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Response to appalachiablue (Reply #41)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:48 AM

46. That outlook on nationalism/separatism is our ideal.

I'm not saying there aren't idiots and hotheads here, but they're very much the minority and aren't allowed to hijack our agendas.

If you've not been before, it's a fantastic place. They can't take our scenery away from us!

PM me before you come if you like - might be able to offer you some tips on things to do/avoid doing (bring rainwear whenever you come, though this summer's been pretty amazing for sunshine so far), or even meet up.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #46)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 01:00 PM

85. Understood, there's always some rotters around

but keeping them out of the mainstream is key. Thanks for the offer, definitely will contact if I make plans. The heavenly scenery of Scotland is renowned I know. An unfinished travel dream, it's Scotland sooner than later I hope.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #18)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 04:01 PM

107. Thank you for the inside skinny. And, thanks for the Scotch, too!

A major contribution to western civilization.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #4)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:35 AM

39. You have provided the answer. Looks like no one is listening.

So, how about those Packers?

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Response to yourpaljoey (Reply #39)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 04:10 PM

108. An odd little cheering section for the City of London has popped up here.

Almost like the global bankers, industrialists and stock traders on the Footsie who caused all this anxiety can't be faulted. Brexit is all about identity politics, with no economic point of reference, for them.



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Response to leveymg (Reply #108)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 04:25 PM

110. Well, you tried

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Response to leveymg (Reply #4)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 06:47 PM

130. The City of London is different to Greater London!

Do you realize that the City of London is about 1 square mile, and that's where the bulk of the money markets etc. are?

And that Greater London - which is what people generally mean when they talk about "London", and is certainly the unit that is counted as voting Remain in the referendum chit-chat, because the City of London is just one relatively small borough within Greater London, and voted 3,312 Remain/1,087 Leave - is a large conurbation with a widely varied populace that includes some seriously disadvantaged areas and is highly multicultural?

Just wanted to be sure you're not confusing the two.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #130)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 10:36 PM

131. I used to work on the Floor of the NYSE. The City of London is Wall St East

But all those brokers live in Greater London, at least the nicer neighborhoods that went heavily for Stay. Please don't be condescending.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #131)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 10:59 PM

132. It wasn't clear from any of your posts what you know about the place,

so how can it be condescending?! I told you I was checking.

Anyhoo, I'll be sure to pass that info on to all the brokers snuggled up in Tower Hamlets (73k Remain/35k Leave).

And the ones in those four impoverished Leave-voting boroughs: Havering, Bexley, Hillingdon and Sutton!

Toodle-pip!

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:01 AM

15. London voted heavily to stay n/t

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Response to n2doc (Reply #15)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:50 AM

49. London has plenty serious pockets of deprivation.

It's also one of the most multicultural places in the world, as well as the seat of so much that's sinister financially.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:11 AM

17. So open borders neoliberalism is better then closed borders neoliberalism

Seems like you're arguing more for your version of neoliberalism/third way then theirs.



Does anyone on either want to be a progressive in this? This is why we have gotten to this point.

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Response to runaway hero (Reply #17)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:55 AM

24. I am arguing that Brexit had nothing to do with being for or against neoliberalism.

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Response to runaway hero (Reply #17)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:45 AM

44. Progressive like with strong labor and environmental standards, world class income equality,

strong unions and effective regulations? UKIP, the far-right and the faction of the Conservative Party that wanted to be rid of 'cumbersome' EU regulations on labor and the environment won the vote. Liberals and labor supported Remain precisely to preserve these protections.

You ain't seen 'neoliberalism' (or Reagan/Thatcher 'conservatism', if you prefer) until you see what the Conservative Party and Boris Johnson are about to bring to the UK.

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Response to pampango (Reply #44)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 03:02 PM

101. They why did those same people just leave

No one wants to admit a lot of ex-labour voted out... like I said. Are really against fear mongering or do we just want to sell third way lite?

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Response to runaway hero (Reply #101)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 03:12 PM

103. Why did some Labour voters vote to Leave? For the same reasons that many, many Conservative

voters voted to leave I would guess. And some Conservative voters voted to Remain while many, many liberal voters voted to Remain.

The parties in the UK apparently aren't any more monolithic than American parties, but there are trends and patterns in the polling data.

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Response to pampango (Reply #103)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 03:20 PM

104. But the many didn't show up

Young people didn't show when it mattered yet again. I'm black. Xenophobia was a huge reasons the UK has left, but show up to the polls, and make the government work for the people. So people won't come in and demagogue you.

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Response to runaway hero (Reply #104)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 03:30 PM

105. "Young people didn't show when it mattered yet again." And old people did and got their way.

The same thing happens in the US unfortunately. (And I'm an old guy. )

Xenophobia was a huge reasons the UK has left, but show up to the polls, and make the government work for the people. So people won't come in and demagogue you.

Well said, runaway hero. Thanks for posting.

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Response to pampango (Reply #105)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 03:33 PM

106. No problem

Happy to discuss!

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:17 AM

20. It's almost as absurd as saying they are racists because they didn't want open borders.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:58 AM

25. Neoliberals are loving Brexit since it let's them force the UK...

...into really shitty trade deals.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:07 AM

29. 17.4 million ignorant racists voted leave

Must be hell on earth in the UK. Like a big Alabama. Or not



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Response to Teamster Jeff (Reply #29)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:30 PM

70. Maybe you aren't a person of color / Polish accent / headscarf who has spent time in Britain lately.



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Response to Teamster Jeff (Reply #29)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 10:23 AM

119. If you're South Asian it's pretty bad

My wife has a worse time in the UK than Mississippi.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #119)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 04:12 PM

126. I believe you. Sorry to hear that. Nm

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:25 AM

34. This chart completely demolishes that meme about Brexit being a rejection of neoliberalism

 

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Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #34)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:51 AM

50. If you really, really want it to be about rejecting neoliberalism, polling data does not matter.

Fitting events into your worldview is really all that matters. But thanks for posting this.

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Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #34)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 04:28 PM

111. Interesting how the divide on capitalism most closely reflects the actual vote.

If I were to try to draw conclusions (not sure how reliable Lord Ashcroft Polls are), I would say that attitudes toward capitalism (neoliberalism) is a factor that corresponds most closely with the way people cast their ballots.

The others, while certainly significant, may not have as great an overall weight. It also shows how deeply reactionary many of the Leave voters are on social issues and things, such as the Internet, that many simply take for granted as part of contemporary life.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:30 AM

36. Let us note that with a few exceptions the Brexit leaders were RIGHT wing

Farage is right wing.

Boris is right wing/panders to right wingers so they will make him PM.

Gove is right wing.

The Tory MPs who supported Brexit are right wing.

MURDOCH cronies supported Brexit.

They don't have a problem with neoliberalism.

They have problems with bloody furriners bossing us, and making regulations that make it harder to pollute the environment and underpay workers. The Leave voters who supported them were mostly persuaded that immigrants were stealing their jobs (when actually it's Thatcher and her successors, including Farage and Boris and Gove and the RW Tory MPs who are getting rid of their jobs).

Britain's negativity to the EU (which is universal to some degree, even among Remainers) consists of suspecting its bureaucracy and its gravy train, not in condemning its neoliberalism. The people who were strongest in leading the Leave campaign would make Merkel look like a fucking Communist in comparison.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #36)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:42 AM

43. Boris is Bananas, even manic, albeit entertaining at times. Can't believe he'd be PM.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #36)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:42 PM

74. Tony Blair, Bush's poodle, was on the other side

 


Perhaps we should learn to think for ourselves.

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Response to J_J_ (Reply #74)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:52 PM

82. Yes, and a start would be not listening to the right-wing media

There may be left-wing reasons for opposing the EU, but this was NOT what the campaign was based on.

And hard as it may be to believe, even Blair and Cameron are to the left of Farage.

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Response to J_J_ (Reply #74)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:52 PM

83. and Donald Trump and Sarah Palin were all for the exit

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:34 AM

38. My thread regarding such did not claim that the vote was logical.

 

When voters are only offered two choices, they will often gravitate to "B" after years of "A" failing to deliver on its promises. It often does not matter that "B" is a total shit sandwich, 10x worse than "A."

In the Brexit vote, the neoliberal EU with its distant, unaccountable, meddling Eurocrats was "A." I agree with you that "B"ritain (see what I did there?) will not suddenly become a grass roots workers' paradise just due to the vote. But I still ardently maintain that the failures of neoliberal Europe contributed heavily to the results of the Brexit vote.

-app

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:49 AM

47. Did you mean the word embarrassing?

 

Please stop lying to yourself. This is getting embarrassing for you.

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Response to Rex (Reply #47)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:50 AM

48. It's crossed the line from "embarrassing" to "shameful", honestly

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #48)


Response to Rex (Reply #47)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:57 AM

54. Oh No!!! A typo derailed my whole argument!!! Foiled again!!!

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:51 AM

51. Good luck preaching to the antineoliberalchorus who are mostly just parrots.

Look at the context in which some of the least informed use the word neoliberal.

Too much blog reading/too little thinking.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:55 AM

53. Is this NeoliberalismUnderground.com now?

 

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Response to fbc (Reply #53)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:08 PM

58. I cannot be since it already is leftistconspiracytheories.com

Sometimes I have doubts about DU.

For example when I see somebody being hyped simply for against the West.
For a time, we had a guy here (forgot his name) who posted stuff here that came really close to being outright russian state-propaganda.
And according to some people here on DU, the late dictator (of the terrorism-supporting, media-oppressing, dissident-executing kind) Gaddafi must have been a swell guy because he was a leftie.

For example when I see people spreading leftist conspiracy-theories that play fast and loose with facts.

For example when I see people here on DU mindlessly repeating leftist propaganda, simply because it makes them feel good.



If you have any evidence how the Brexit was intended to fight neoliberalism or how it was a defeat for neoliberalism, I BEG YOU to share it with me. Because a) it doesn't make sense from a theoretical point of view and b) I have seen absolutely no evidence that supports this oft-repeated claim.

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Response to fbc (Reply #53)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:31 PM

72. It has to be.

Based on the TOS.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:01 PM

56. Profit = neoliberal?? Gosh. (It's not simplistic like that.) . . nt

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #56)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:46 PM

77. profits while keeping down workers = neoliberalism.

There is no big surprise to those of us in the US that wages have remained stagnant since the 1970s (when adjusted for inflation) when compared to the top earners.

Democratic economics has done nothing to lift the financial tides of the majority of citizens. We need a new thought process, and thus I am glad that the Democratic platform now supports a $15 minimum wage.

I do believe that we look at things backwards sometimes. Why is that we look at always raising wages, but never look at bringing down costs on housing?

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Response to Exilednight (Reply #77)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 01:17 PM

87. None of your rant against neoliberalism (as you define it) has anything to do with UK, EU or Brexit.

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #87)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 03:08 PM

102. In other words "you asked a question that I can't answer so I'm going to

Belittle your response."

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Response to Exilednight (Reply #102)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 04:15 PM

109. It's OK. You could have tied your def'n to UK, used UK/EU examples, but we don't need to go further.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:12 PM

60. And we have your word for that?

 

But not so many facts.

"The late Bob Crow was bang on the money when he said: “social EU legislation, which supposedly leads to better working conditions, has not saved one job and is riddled with opt-outs for employers to largely ignore any perceived benefits they may bring to workers. But it is making zero-hour contracts and agency-working the norm while undermining collective bargaining and full-time, secure employment.”"

"The only thing that should remain is the truth: a social Europe was never part of the European Union super-state project. How could it be? The EU has always travelled on the “free trade” train alongside “free” movement of capital, business-austerity, flexible labour markets, low pay, privatisation of public services and the eradication of welfare states. These were not just random policy proscriptions, but specifically designed by ‘free-market’ fanatics. It was the deepening and integration of the EU project that allowed unelected policy makers, driven by the powerful EU corporate lobby, to circumvent and eradicate the social rights that were won by workers in the aftermath of World-War-Two. Creating democratic deficits in all the EU institutions and policy-making by unaccountable technocrats enabled and accelerated this process of dismantling rights. This arrangement ensured the neoliberal Holy Trinity of public spending cuts, privatisation and the removal of trade union rights could be enforced with little contestation."

"It’s worth noting the continuity of contempt by the European Union elites towards public opinion. Jean Monnet the founding father of the EU understood democracy was an obstacle to the elitist project and had to employ a degree of deception: "via money Europe could become political in five years" and "…the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would … the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal." Jean-Claude Juncker, today’s unelected EU chief makes clear that nothing much has changed, “when it becomes serious, you have to lie.” “There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.”"

More facts at: http://www.alternet.org/world/eu-neoliberal-nightmare

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Response to fasttense (Reply #60)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:31 PM

71. Bob Crow would also be bitterly opposed

to the entirely indigenous regimes that have actually been imposing neoliberalist austerity on the UK for too many years, and would be dispairing at the fact that is about to be ramped up in spades.

You don't need his word for it. If you're willing to dismiss the views of those who've actually lived here and witnessed it, then alrighty, you know better.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #71)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:44 PM

75. Your correct, I don't need his words the rest of the article proves the point.

 

Where is your proof?

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Response to fasttense (Reply #75)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:47 PM

78. LIVING HERE! That's where my proof is.

But like I said, you know better because you read an article, so don't let me detain you.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #78)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:52 PM

81. The writer of the article also lives there.

 

Your opinion is not supported with any facts. At least the writer provides facts. You merely state opinions.

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Response to fasttense (Reply #81)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:57 PM

84. Pretty much 99% of the UK DUers

will tell you what I have. They've been wearing out their fingers posting facts in the face of arrogant dismissal like yours for days now.

But we're all wrong, huh, and you'd rather believe the "facts" this author has come up with because he agrees with whatever your agenda is, then tomorrow you'll be all het up about something else and be posting about that, while we have to continue living through, observing, all this?

We must be pretty thick collectively to have got it all so wrong when if we just read your article, we'll be put right.

I'm really not bothered whether you dismiss us all, but it is tiresome.

As for this Enrico Tortelona's "facts", he was on the Leave side from the get-go, and one of his major outlets is Morning Star. If you don't know why that's significant, you don't know much about the UK.

Here's Tortelano in debate with Frances Grady about these issues: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/06/should-uk-brexit-trade-union-views

Frances Grady is General Secretary of the TUC, she was a major spoke for Remain, but she obviously knows less than Tortolano and you about the whole thing.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:13 PM

61. David Harvey uses the term neoliberalism to describe Lewis Powell's 1971 confidential memorandum to

 

Please note that we are living under neo-liberal policies - they are at the core of our inequality and lack of opportunity, just like they were when we supported them on the side of the dictator Pinochet in Chile.

People voted the way they did because they are scared. These policies are helping make us more insecure every day.

One cannot divorce this from the issue if they want to be taken seriously.


Note - it has nothing to do with being a liberal



...
David Harvey uses the term neoliberalism to describe Lewis Powell's 1971 confidential memorandum to the US Chamber of Commerce.[54] A call to arms to the business community to counter criticism of the free enterprise system, it was a significant factor in the rise of conservative organizations and think-tanks which advocated for neoliberal policies, such as The Heritage Foundation, The Cato Institute, Citizens for a Sound Economy, Accuracy in Academia and the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research. For Powell, universities were becoming an ideological battleground and recommended the establishment of an intellectual infrastructure to serve as a counterweight to the increasingly popular ideas of Ralph Nader and other opponents of big business.[56][57]

Neoliberalism gained prominence in the United States in 1981 with policies put into place by the Reagan Administration which included tax cuts, increased defense spending, financial deregulation and trade deficit expansion. Congress followed Reagan's basic proposal and cut federal income taxes across the board by 25% in 1981.[58][59]

During the 1990s, the Clinton Administration also embraced neoliberalism by supporting the passage of the North American Free Trade Agreement, continuing the deregulation of the financial sector through passage of the Commodity Futures Modernization Act and the repeal of the Glass–Steagall Act, and implementing cuts to the welfare state through passage of the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act.[59][60][61] The neoliberalism of the Clinton Administration differs from that of Reagan as the former purged it of neoconservative positions on militarism, family values, opposition to multiculturalism and neglect of ecological issues.[55]:50-1
...


wiki

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:22 PM

64. It is not quite as simple as that

Yes, indeed. Great Britain is in neo-liberal hands. The government is run by the conservatives, and their policies include privatization, low taxes, and austerity for the masses.

However, the brexit vote is clearly a vote against globalization and against the increased insecurity that comes with the freedom of flow of people and capital.

It is quite misleading to describe the brexit vote as a vote to separate neoliberal Britain from less capitalist countries. Other countries may be less capitalist, but the EU itself, with its open borders, and with its open trade, imposes significant neoliberal conditions on all member nations.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:27 PM

67. Anyone claiming that BREXIT was driven by one thing is disingenuous

This has got to be one of the most complex situations we've seen in modern political times, and everyone's trying to point to one or two things that caused everything to happen.

I personally think that Brexit was a huge mistake for the UK, and there are plenty of Brexit voters who are feeling a deep feeling of buyers' remorse on the day after. They were angry and they were frustrated and now they realize that their anger and frustration was causing them to think without total clarity.

Are there problems with the EU? Certainly. One of the big frustrations is that policy is not transparent. It was originally pitched as a trade organization, but has definitely become a political body. Trouble is that if it has become a political body, and it's trying to establish a polity that affects all of Europe, then that process needs to be transparent, and it isn't. Public policy must be set by a public means.

Additionally, the economic aspects of the EU are far too influenced by the IMF, which is a major consultant to the EU economic policy. Some of the more powerful member states are just far too in love with austerity, a common IMF tactic.

Now, at a high level, this is definitely what UK business interests and corporatists were concerned about going into the Brexit campaign. But that's not how it was framed to the average person, let's be honest. There are huge business and corporate concerns on both sides of Brexit, but it's the people that have to vote. So, the campaign came down to the people with carrots and sticks and little dribbles of information, and posters that intimated that immigrants were coming for their jobs, and that if they left the EU, they could just plop that money into NHS (which they've admitted since the vote was a complete fabrication). The average person doesn't care and probably can't really grasp the major corporate concerns involved.

So, were there valid reasons to vote Brexit? Yes.

Does it look like those were the reasons people actually voted Brexit? No.

There are neoliberals on both side of Brexit, but I'm willing to bet there is a statistically negligible number of voters that cast a Brexit vote on that point.

But I still think it was massively foolish for the UK to vote to leave. If there are problems in the organization they can better address those concerns from within. As I saw someone tweet, "You don't apply your face to a belt sander to treat a case of acne." The UK is an economic powerhouse within Europe, so they should really apply pressure from within the EU to change the things that they feel need fixing.

As an aside note:
I'm fascinated now by what Scotland may do. They hold a great deal of power now. The UK can't leave the EU if Scotland doesn't ratify, so they can force the UK to stay in the EU. The other choice is that they can leave the UK, let the UK leave the EU and join the EU as an independent entity! Interesting times!

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Response to Saviolo (Reply #67)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:48 PM

80. I don't believe layering over one neoliberal prone government with another is not

 

the way to return to democracy.

I do believe you are not looking at the polls. Recently they have shown that working people disapprove of the EU more and more.

True it is Not about just one issue but name me something that is NOT impacted by a nation's economy.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 05:28 PM

113. Gutter-Populism ultimately degenerates into paranoid conspiracy theories about the "Powers That Be".

As shown by all the supposed left-wingers supporting this Fascist shit-show.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 10:07 AM

118. If it was a rejection of neoliberalism, conservative voters are sure smarter than liberal voters

when it comes to understanding and rejecting neoliberalism.

I don't think that is the case.

If, OTOH, Leave voters were motivated by immigration concerns and opposition to multiculturalism and social liberalism, then the conservative support for Leave makes much more sense.

I think that is the case.

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Response to pampango (Reply #118)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 03:12 PM

123. Yes

Especially when you bear in mind that those conservatives idolized Margaret Thatcher and positively lapped up her neo-liberal rhetoric and reforms.

They also lapped up her nationalism and social conservatism of course, and as you say, that's a much more fruitful area when looking to explain Brexit.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Wed Jun 29, 2016, 01:52 AM

133. Real estate fun and games might've played a role.

http://www.gdnonline.com/Details/91773/GCC-investors-freeze-UK-property-deals-on-Brexit-fears

GCC investors freeze UK property deals on Brexit fears
before Brexit

Gulf Arab investors, some of the biggest buyers of British real estate, are holding back from new deals because they fear a property price slump if Britain leaves the European Union, according to legal and investment sources.

Sovereign and private investors from Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the UAE have been prolific buyers of British assets in the past decade, snapping up billions of dollars worth of property, mostly in London.

"Sovereign wealth funds are concerned that Brexit is taking its toll on the property market in London," said a London-based lawyer who works with some of the largest Gulf funds. He declined to be named, citing the confidential nature of his work.

"The situation will further deteriorate if there's a Brexit vote."

<>

Gulf family businesses and private investors are heavily involved in London real estate.

Investors from the UAE accounted for more than 20 per cent of buy-to-let (rental) property sales in the UK in 2015, said Amit Seth, the Middle East and North Africa head of international residential developments at London-focused real estate agency Chestertons.

<>

Qatar is one of the most high-profile investors in London, owning landmarks such as the Shard skyscraper, Harrods department store and Olympic Village, as well as luxury hotels. It also leads a consortium that bought the owner of the Canary Wharf financial district last year.

While the Qatar Investment Authority (QIA) wealth fund has been diversifying its portfolio away from Europe towards more investments in the United States and Asia in the last couple of years, it is still heavily invested in Britain and holds stakes in Barclays, Royal Dutch Shell and Sainsbury's .

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-24/brexit-vote-adds-to-london-housing-market-s-growing-list-of-woes
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-24/u-k-housebuilding-stocks-led-by-redrow-plummet-on-brexit-vote

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Wed Jun 29, 2016, 12:01 PM

139. +1000

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