HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Maybe the Florida shootin...

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:16 PM

 

Maybe the Florida shooting is the last straw....

Maybe it's time for everyone, right, left, middle, green, LGBT, libertarians, socialists, to come together in a common consensus
and present a united policy/face to the world that we will not stand for this sort of outrage. Political sniping and inter camp bickering
between all parties only emboldens our enemies. If you don't think that terrorists troll chat rooms/forums of every stripe to gauge the responses/mood of the American people in regards to these acts, then I'm sorry, but your kidding yourselves. I for one, am SICK
of the blame games and the attempts to politicize these terrible events. Is there no common ground upon which everyone can agree
that this HAS to stop? I guess the first step would have to be recognizing who is actually responsible for these acts...not "who created the climate" but who actually pulled the trigger.

134 replies, 6916 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 134 replies Author Time Post
Reply Maybe the Florida shooting is the last straw.... (Original post)
clarice Jun 2016 OP
-none Jun 2016 #1
clarice Jun 2016 #2
-none Jun 2016 #3
clarice Jun 2016 #4
TexasProgresive Jun 2016 #25
clarice Jun 2016 #42
TexasProgresive Jun 2016 #97
Scootaloo Jun 2016 #101
WiffenPoof Jun 2016 #120
jberryhill Jun 2016 #126
Adrahil Jun 2016 #129
-none Jun 2016 #41
clarice Jun 2016 #49
-none Jun 2016 #93
Straw Man Jun 2016 #103
-none Jun 2016 #107
Straw Man Jun 2016 #112
-none Jun 2016 #116
Straw Man Jun 2016 #121
-none Jun 2016 #122
Straw Man Jun 2016 #123
Vinca Jun 2016 #5
clarice Jun 2016 #7
Joe the Revelator Jun 2016 #12
clarice Jun 2016 #15
Albertoo Jun 2016 #113
Vinca Jun 2016 #16
clarice Jun 2016 #27
Vinca Jun 2016 #99
clarice Jun 2016 #134
Albertoo Jun 2016 #114
sufrommich Jun 2016 #6
clarice Jun 2016 #8
sufrommich Jun 2016 #10
lancer78 Jun 2016 #33
Hoyt Jun 2016 #78
yuiyoshida Jun 2016 #102
One_Life_To_Give Jun 2016 #9
clarice Jun 2016 #11
One_Life_To_Give Jun 2016 #31
clarice Jun 2016 #40
kcr Jun 2016 #98
jberryhill Jun 2016 #130
qnr Jun 2016 #13
clarice Jun 2016 #14
mythology Jun 2016 #19
clarice Jun 2016 #23
qnr Jun 2016 #21
clarice Jun 2016 #26
qnr Jun 2016 #28
clarice Jun 2016 #35
alarimer Jun 2016 #119
dumbcat Jun 2016 #125
DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2016 #17
clarice Jun 2016 #18
DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2016 #22
-none Jun 2016 #89
sarisataka Jun 2016 #20
clarice Jun 2016 #24
A HERETIC I AM Jun 2016 #29
clarice Jun 2016 #37
A HERETIC I AM Jun 2016 #44
clarice Jun 2016 #50
A HERETIC I AM Jun 2016 #56
randr Jun 2016 #30
clarice Jun 2016 #38
deathrind Jun 2016 #32
SoCalMusicLover Jun 2016 #34
Dalziel3979 Jun 2016 #36
SwankyXomb Jun 2016 #96
clarice Jun 2016 #39
-none Jun 2016 #94
clarice Jun 2016 #43
A HERETIC I AM Jun 2016 #52
clarice Jun 2016 #55
A HERETIC I AM Jun 2016 #59
clarice Jun 2016 #62
A HERETIC I AM Jun 2016 #73
Crunchy Frog Jun 2016 #45
clarice Jun 2016 #47
Crunchy Frog Jun 2016 #60
clarice Jun 2016 #64
Crunchy Frog Jun 2016 #77
clarice Jun 2016 #81
Crunchy Frog Jun 2016 #90
Bluenorthwest Jun 2016 #108
Crunchy Frog Jun 2016 #110
Crunchy Frog Jun 2016 #111
Dem2 Jun 2016 #124
clarice Jun 2016 #46
Crunchy Frog Jun 2016 #57
clarice Jun 2016 #61
Crunchy Frog Jun 2016 #69
clarice Jun 2016 #75
spanone Jun 2016 #48
clarice Jun 2016 #51
spanone Jun 2016 #54
clarice Jun 2016 #58
Kentonio Jun 2016 #105
Calista241 Jun 2016 #53
clarice Jun 2016 #65
Calista241 Jun 2016 #70
clarice Jun 2016 #72
Calista241 Jun 2016 #74
clarice Jun 2016 #76
Algernon Moncrieff Jun 2016 #63
smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #67
clarice Jun 2016 #68
Th1onein Jun 2016 #66
clarice Jun 2016 #71
Th1onein Jun 2016 #88
Fumesucker Jun 2016 #117
Hekate Jun 2016 #79
clarice Jun 2016 #83
Crunchy Frog Jun 2016 #92
Gomez163 Jun 2016 #80
Crunchy Frog Jun 2016 #84
clarice Jun 2016 #85
Gomez163 Jun 2016 #87
jberryhill Jun 2016 #128
One Black Sheep Jun 2016 #82
Bluenorthwest Jun 2016 #109
clarice Jun 2016 #86
tabasco Jun 2016 #91
Kingofalldems Jun 2016 #95
Kingofalldems Jun 2016 #100
TDale313 Jun 2016 #104
Eleanors38 Jun 2016 #106
Albertoo Jun 2016 #115
Eleanors38 Jun 2016 #133
alarimer Jun 2016 #118
patsimp Jun 2016 #127
SoCalMusicLover Jun 2016 #131
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2016 #132

Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:17 PM

1. Yeah, like Sandyhook did correct?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to -none (Reply #1)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:18 PM

2. I was speaking of the Florida shootings.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #2)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:19 PM

3. What's the difference?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to -none (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:20 PM

4. Once again, back to the text of my post....

 

You don't think that it is a good idea to united against this sort of thing?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #4)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:41 PM

25. One could hope for that outcome.

However if the massacre of little children didn't bring us (the nation collectively) to our senses I can't image what would.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TexasProgresive (Reply #25)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:15 PM

42. Once again... I'm amazed by the number of Sandy Hook references to my OP...

 


Is this the new narrative? Is this a way to deflect our attention away from The Florida shootings and the perpetrator?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #42)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 02:55 PM

97. The PTB who can enact sensible gun laws

Tend to be prejudiced against the victims of the Orlando horror. I'm referring to congress and many state legislatures. Maybe you are correct in your OP that this could be a turning point. I am pessimistic.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #42)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 04:21 PM

101. It's not deflecting attention, it's lamenting a lack of action

 

Sandy Hook was "the Last Straw," too. And all the massacres before. There's a lot of sentiment, but not much substance, basically

I don't think anyone's trying to tear you down or deflect from your point. It's just we've all edeard the promises before, and it keeps happening. It leads to a pretty deep cynicism about anything ever coming of it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #42)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 09:27 AM

120. I'm amazed that you are amazed

Remember what happened right after Sandy Hook? A plol was taken where 92% of Americans agreed that we needed stricter background checks for purchasing a firearm? Nothing was done. If 92% off the population desire this, how come it didn't even get to a vote. And you wonder see why we can't seem to get our act together.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #42)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:27 PM

126. It's because of your use of "last straw"

 


Many believed several previous straws were, likewise, the "last straw".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #42)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:32 PM

129. I heard a commentator this morning remark....

 

that if the sight if 20+ young school children dead didn't turn the tide, then perhaps nothing can.

I think some folks just feel that this view point, however sad, is true. This is absolutely horrific. But what could make it the last straw that hasn't existed before?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #4)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:11 PM

41. Our country is off the rails in many ways.

We foster a free wheeling gun climate in this country and spend hundreds of billions of dollars in other countries to make terrorists and then wonder why we have routine mass murders in this country? Nobody should be wondering.

Only 30 to 35 percent of the people in this country own firearms. Yet there are many more firearms than people in this country. The biggest problem are hand guns and being allow to carry in public. The second biggest problem are the military looking knock-offs, too many use to get their testosterone fix.

So, the problem is two fold. One, too many guns in the hands of too many people that should not be having them in the first place, and two - Too many guns floating around.
Fix those two items and watch out firearm death plummet.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to -none (Reply #41)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:24 PM

49. Ok...but why deflect the Florida shootings (if it was terrorism) with gun control?

 

It's as if the gun itself fired at those poor people

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #49)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 02:05 PM

93. Better firearm control means less weapons in the hands of those that should not be having them

in the first place.
If you are paranoid enough to think you need a gun in the first place, especially in public, maybe you are too paranoid to be possession of any firearms.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to -none (Reply #93)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 04:27 PM

103. How well did that work in France?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Straw Man (Reply #103)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 05:40 PM

107. Please don't tell me that

you think one or more concealed carry guys in the crowd would have taken out the bad guys and stopped the carnage.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to -none (Reply #107)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:04 AM

112. I asked you a question.

You chose not to answer it. Let's get that out of the way first, shall we?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Straw Man (Reply #112)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 07:24 AM

116. I did. France is not Florida.

There are plenty of Christians that have committed mass murder, so what is the difference?
The problem is fundamentalism, not any specific religion. If the guy had been a Republican Christian and all else being equal, would you be having the same mind set? I'm betting no.
The word is he was a long time ticking time bomb, who finally went off. Deal with that for a bit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to -none (Reply #116)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:09 PM

121. You tapdance divinely.

Are you responding to a different subthread? The question was how effective restricting weapon access is for preventing terrorist shootings. I asked you how well it worked in France. I'm still waiting for your answer.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Straw Man (Reply #121)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:13 PM

122. That is because we are looking at this differently.

I see a problem with too many guns in general and you see a problem with his religion.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to -none (Reply #122)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:15 PM

123. Begging your pardon ...

I see a problem with too many guns in general and you see a problem with his religion.

I never said a word about his religion. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #2)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:20 PM

5. If nothing happens after little kids are slaughtered, nothing is going to happen.

I imagine there's a good chunk of the far right that is downright happy to see gays gunned down.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Vinca (Reply #5)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:22 PM

7. Back to the OP.....don't you think that uniting is a good idea?nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #7)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:26 PM

12. Thank you for trying to keep people on topic.

 

Good luck

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #12)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:28 PM

15. It's tough...but I won't give up.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #15)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:10 AM

113. Yes. I saw the cultural relativists were quick to try to derail your thread

 

Common sense is like garlic to people who want all cultures and ideologies to be equally good.

Personally, I think the Maya cult involving human sacrifices was sub par. But that's me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #7)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:31 PM

16. I think realism is a good idea.

There are no rainbows or puppies or unicorns or singing "Kumbayah" when it comes to guns. One side worships them, the other cares about the well being of the citizens. While uniting is always a good idea, it's only wishful thinking at this point in time. Are you ready to hold hands with Trump and skip down a rose petal covered path? If you are, here's a news flash: he's not interested. His followers aren't interested. Most Republicans aren't interested. A gun wielding thug can take out the babies in a hospital nursery and the GOP will stand with the NRA before they stand with the babies. Sad, but true.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Vinca (Reply #16)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:45 PM

27. I respectfully disagree... I think 99% of the population...delpores this....

 

sort of thing....maybe wishful thinking.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #27)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 03:10 PM

99. I think you're very naive, but maybe that's a good thing.

Realists like me have pretty much given up when it comes to the carnage that is allowed to happen on our streets every day.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Vinca (Reply #99)

Tue Jun 14, 2016, 11:37 AM

134. I for one...will NEVER give up. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to -none (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:12 AM

114. How about: mental health care AND radical Islam should BOTH be tackled?

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:22 PM

6. If a room full of dead six year olds didn't do it,

nothing will. It's time for politicians to do the right thing and ban automatic weapons regardless of the shit fit that will be thrown by the NRA and their gun humper enablers.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sufrommich (Reply #6)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:23 PM

8. Back to the OP.....don't you think that uniting is a good idea?nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #8)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:25 PM

10. What does "uniting" even mean?

There are many groups united to stop gun violence,we can unite til the cows come home,it does mean shit if politicians won't act.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sufrommich (Reply #6)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:53 PM

33. Automatic weapons

 

have been banned for years. Only way to get one is through extensive background checks and shelling out $20,000 per gun.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lancer78 (Reply #33)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:48 PM

78. Semi-autos are plenty deadly, just look at last night. Stop the gunner BS.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sufrommich (Reply #6)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 04:22 PM

102. This

n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:25 PM

9. Guns are likely already flying off the shelves

History has shown that events like this cause a spike in defensive gun purchases. Alot of people will think that if only one or a few of the victims had a gun then many lives could have been saved.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to One_Life_To_Give (Reply #9)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:26 PM

11. Perhaps...but what about the idea in the OP and uniting? nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #11)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:53 PM

31. Two diametrically opposed camps seldom unite

With half the country seeing the only solution as gun control while the other half sees the only solution is every good person to carry a gun. You are only guaranteed to have roadblock.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to One_Life_To_Give (Reply #31)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:10 PM

40. Thank you...but I was speaking more about a united....

 

front against terrorism....not gun control.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #40)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 03:09 PM

98. Yes. That's exactly why you aren't getting the kind of "uniting" you're calling for.

Not interested.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #40)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:33 PM

130. Is there some lack of unity in condemning terrorism?

 


Are you suggesting that, other than terrorists, there is some significant demographic which is either apathetic or supportive of terrorism?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:26 PM

13. You keep saying "Back to the original post" - whether or not individuals

here think that it is a good idea, the fact that shooting a school full of kids wasn't 'the last straw' makes it obvious that this shooting isn't going to be.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to qnr (Reply #13)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:28 PM

14. Yes, but no one has addressed the benefits of all groups uniting. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #14)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:35 PM

19. And you didn't address how you think you're going to get all of those groups to unite

 

Unfortunately the NRA is an incredibly entrenched organization. Yes obviously if the overwhelming majority of Americans who support some measure of gun control come together, vote out the cockroaches who kowtow to the NRA, then gun reform can happen. Unfortunately as we have seen with senseless tragedy after senseless tragedy, there will always be those who value their guns over other people's lives.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mythology (Reply #19)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:38 PM

23. I wish I HAD the answer. I presented a possible deterrent (not an answer).....

 

That it might help if groups from all across the political spectrum could unite and
form a coalition condemning these acts.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #14)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:36 PM

21. As was mentioned in another post, a large segment of the population are going

to be secretly glad that this happened to the LGBTQ community. Any uniting is going to be partial.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to qnr (Reply #21)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:43 PM

26. You know, honestly....perhaps I'm naive....

 

but it's hard for me to imagine anyone in main stream America, regardless WHAT side you lean to, taking Joy in in an act like this. Yes perhaps .00005 percent of the population who are TRULY mentally deficient would applaud this act. But again,
I think that the VAST majority would condemn them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #26)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:46 PM

28. Love the attitude :D - I recommend that you stay away from the comments section on almost anything

on the internet though, in order that you are allowed to keep it.

Incidentally, I wasn't being facetious - I really do love the attitude.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to qnr (Reply #28)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:59 PM

35. Thanks....qnr......but I can assure you....

 

I'm not always this "rosy" lol

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #26)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 07:55 AM

119. Yes, you are naive.

People have already gone on record celebrating this, most notably Dan Patrick of Texas. The lieutenant governor, if fact. If you think I'm going to unite with people like that, you are naive. If elected officials can stay that stuff, or people running for office, it's because they know it won't cost them votes. Because it is fully accepted among the constituencies.

Sure, a lot of people will post pictures on Facebook to show their "solidarity"; many will offer "thoughts and prayers" (quite literally the very least they can do), but in the end, nothing will get done to stop the carnage. Nothing will get done to stop the foaming-at-the-mouth bigotry that is very much a part of mainstream culture.

Spend some time in the dark corners of the internet and you will see it. It's not even that far away.

So, no, I'm not uniting with those people. I'd sooner lie down with a snake. If I get bitten, it's my fault. A snake can't help its nature.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #26)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:23 PM

125. You are naive

It would seem you don't spend much time in the real world. Your percentage is WAY off.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:31 PM

17. I don't believe we can prevent all acts of terror.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #17)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:33 PM

18. True...but presenting a solid front stating that we won't tolerate things like ...

 

The Florida shootings seems like a good idea....don't you agree?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #18)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:37 PM

22. I agree... Your intentions are noble...



I just don't see how you can eliminate all of it...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #22)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:59 PM

89. Getting it down to the average of the civilized countries would be a good thing, don't you think?

As things stand now, this country, as a industrialized nation, is the world's leader in both domestic gun violence and our export of our gun violence via our military. Both need to be stopped.
Just because it may be unrealistic to totally eliminate gun violence, does not mean, in any way, we should not at least try.
I'm getting from your posts that because it cannot be 100% eliminated, we should not try. Am I correct, or not?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:35 PM

20. Best idea of the day...

unfortunately you see people don't want to unite. They prefer politicizing and pointing fingers.

I don't understand why it is so hard to stand with people you may disagree with on many issues and say hate is wrong, violence is wrong, we can live together is peaceful disagreement.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sarisataka (Reply #20)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:39 PM

24. BINGO....Thank you. I wasn't trying to posit the final solution...

 

to this issue...maybe just a step forward.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:49 PM

29. They already have come to a common consensus.

You call for uniting all the various groups.

Well, it's already happened. As has been pointed out in the thread already,the entire country basically threw it's hands up in the air and said "Oh well!" after Sandy Hook.

If 5 year olds getting shot in the face doesn't do it, what will?

The country is already united. And we don't give enough of a fuck to elect people who will do what is necessary.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to A HERETIC I AM (Reply #29)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:02 PM

37. Yes...Sandy Hook was a terrible tragedy, but back to the discussion at hand

 

this event has a distinctly different smell to it.nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #37)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:18 PM

44. I never went away from the discussion at hand.

This event is a case of a whackjob acting on an impulse he should have otherwise controlled.

How is that any different from Sandy Hook?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to A HERETIC I AM (Reply #44)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:25 PM

50. With all respect... I think that you KNOW the answer to that.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #50)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:30 PM

56. What? That they were children at Sandy Hook and these were grown adults at a club?

With all respect... I think that you KNOW the answer to that.


How is it different? Add "Muslim" to the mix? What? Please enlighten me.

It's a non rational thinking actor, taking his hatred to the extreme.

There are plenty of people I could say I hate and I would like to see dead, but I am not an irrational person and I am not going to act on those thoughts.

This person did.

So did Adam Lanza

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:53 PM

30. I have posted this around today

<iframe width="498" height="280" src="" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randr (Reply #30)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:03 PM

38. Excellent *sniff sniff*nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:53 PM

32. It would be nice...

But honestly if 20 dead children did not move the common sense meter in a sane directions this will not either.

This issue is symmetrical it is one of the few issues that plays both sides equally and until we recognize that the cost for one side of this issue far out weighs the other side nothing will be done.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:54 PM

34. No, This Is The New Norm

 

It really should not even be news. We just are drawn to it, so the networks and press cover it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:02 PM

36. Sod all.

The only way there will be no more American mass shootings is when there are no more Americans left to be shot.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dalziel3979 (Reply #36)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 02:10 PM

96. That's the NRA wet dream

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:05 PM

39. I am finding it interesting that there are many posts mentioning....

 

Sandy Hook....but very few referencing the event in the OP. The Florida Shootings.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #39)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 02:08 PM

94. If we had done our duty after Sandy Hook, this last shooting most likely would not have happened.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:17 PM

43. Ok...with all due respect....can we stay away from the Sandy Hook analogies?..I get it..

 

but the OP was about the Florida Shootings.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #43)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:27 PM

52. Your OP was about trying to get people to come together to stop this sort of thing.

You can't expect your readers, unless they were born in the last 2 years to not make the comparison.

Maybe it's time for everyone, right, left, middle, green, LGBT, libertarians, socialists, to come together in a common consensus and present a united policy/face to the world that we will not stand for this sort of outrage.

Do you honestly think that hasn't happened to a large degree?

Political sniping and inter camp bickering between all parties only emboldens our enemies.

What enemies? The guy who committed that atrocity in Orlando last night was an American citizen. What enemies?


If you don't think that terrorists troll chat rooms/forums of every stripe to gauge the responses/mood of the American people in regards to these acts, then I'm sorry, but your kidding yourselves.

So what? And I have not seen a single thread on DU that indicates otherwise.


I for one, am SICK of the blame games and the attempts to politicize these terrible events.

So? You think you are the only one? It is unfortunate, if not downright tragic that the nation has now begin to expect these things.

Is there no common ground upon which everyone can agree that this HAS to stop?

For rational people, sure. But if you can't see that a large segment of the electorate is not rational.....


I guess the first step would have to be recognizing who is actually responsible for these acts...not "who created the climate" but who actually pulled the trigger.

Really? That's YOUR "first step"? I think you'll find that most people made that step pretty quick.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to A HERETIC I AM (Reply #52)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:30 PM

55. As to your last line.. No one here has even ADDRESSED the Florida shootings...

 

all I'm getting is Sandy Hook.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #55)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:34 PM

59. To WHAT DEGREE WOULD YOU LIKE THEM ADDRESSED?!?!?!?!?

Excuse me shouting, but what the hell can be said?

An asshole went into a nightclub and gunned down a shitload of people. It is unique in this country only because of the numbers, but it differs little from any of the mass shootings we have seen over the last ten years.

What is it you want said? That the targets were homosexuals? That it happened in Orlando on a Saturday night? That it was in Micky Mouse's backyard?!? What?

WHAT THE FUCK DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?

Just make the points you keep insisting others make for you, for crying out loud.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to A HERETIC I AM (Reply #59)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:37 PM

62. I obviously struck some sort of nerve...sorry about that....

 

Have you read or seen any news on the perpetrator of these shootings?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #62)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:45 PM

73. The nerve you have struck is your repeated insistence that others make the points,,,,

you obviously want to make yourself, but have yet to do so.

Have I read or seen anything on the douchebag? Sure. He's a whackjob. And he is Muslim. And a Floridian.

So bloody what?

I'm just curious what it is you want the respondents to this thread to say FOR YOU.

That this was an act of terrorism? Well...sure...or maybe not.

That this guy did this because his Imam told him to? Or that he took orders from abroad?

SO WHAT?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:20 PM

45. Nice sentiment, but I think more in the realm of fantasy than reality. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #45)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:21 PM

47. Just an idea.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #47)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:34 PM

60. I like a good fantasy as much as the next person.

I'll be going back to my Doctor Who videos after I finish reading up on this. I'm just not going to tell myself that it's going to magically bring about some miraculous social change.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #60)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:38 PM

64. I thought that my idea was better than useless snarking....apparently you disagree. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #64)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:48 PM

77. What is it that you want, that hasn't already been done?

We're all horrified by this. What more is there that you want? For people to stop talking about the gun issue? To put American Muslims in internment camps? What is it that you want us to unite to do?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #77)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:50 PM

81. Admit we have a problem....admit that it is of a foreign nature....

 

admit that we ALL live in the same Country... and take steps together to curtail more needless loss of life.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #81)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 02:01 PM

90. I think we have all admitted there's a problem.

There's some diversity of opinion as to what degree it is domestic or foreign in nature, or to what extent our own gun culture and "freedoms" are playing a role. Also about the role that our own activities in the Middle East may have sown some seeds.

Are you asking to rid this country of diverse opinions, or of opinions that differ from your own? Is that your definition of "uniting"? If so, I think you're going to find yourself disappointed and frustrated.

What steps do you think are going to "curtail more needless loss of life"? Invade more countries? Arrest/deport Muslims? Arm more citizens? Not mention any other recent mass shooting incidents?

I still can't figure out what it is that you want.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #90)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 06:28 PM

108. you seem to be asking LGBT to get used to being murdered and that is unacceptable.

 

It's not cool to nurture the 'opinion' that gay people must die. So do not do that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #108)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 07:57 PM

110. Where the FUCK did you read that in my post!?!?!?!?

I was having a dialogue with another poster that you were not party to, and that you apparently did not read, and are taking completely out of context.

Kindly apologize for your unfounded accusation.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #108)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 08:35 PM

111. You seem to be defending the actions of the Stanford rapist, and that is unacceptable.

It's just not cool to nurture the opinion that rape is "okay". So do not do that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #60)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:19 PM

124. Please just bury your head in the sand

Nazi Trump appreciates your passive support.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:20 PM

46. Also.... I'm getting the feeling that my idea of all parties......

 

uniting against organized terrorism ( as it is looking like this event was) (If it isn't, I will be the first to say I was wrong) going over so well. Why?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #46)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:31 PM

57. Is there evidence that this was organized terrorism

as opposed to a single, homophobic, gun obsessed person, who found himself identifying with ISIS?

I've honestly only just found out about this, so don't know the answer. I'll be interested to learn more.

Is there any evidence that he was actively affiliated with ISIS and carrying out their instructions, or just that he had apparent sympathies?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #57)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:35 PM

61. No....just taking a que from what was reported on CNN...

 

that it APPEARED to be realated. I am making no firm accusations, as you will notice from several of my posts.
Ho about the option that I sited in my OP? Let's stay on topic.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #61)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:41 PM

69. I am staying on topic. I responded to the exact wording of your post.

Also.... I'm getting the feeling that my idea of all parties......

uniting against organized terrorism ( as it is looking like this event was) (If it isn't, I will be the first to say I was wrong) going over so well. Why?


I think pretty much everyone already is against organized terrorism. If you find someone defending it here, please point it out.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #69)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:46 PM

75. You haven't read any "we deserve it posts"? ooooops, someone just posted one....

 

There are many threads with posts exactly like that.... look them up... you'll be amazed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:22 PM

48. if the children at sandy hook didn't move congress, this will do NOTHING.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to spanone (Reply #48)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:25 PM

51. You did that on purpose. lol

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #51)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:30 PM

54. it's true. if children being slaughtered wasn't the last straw, there is none.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to spanone (Reply #54)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:32 PM

58. No...what I meant is.....

 

I realize that Sandy Hook is the new talking point to deflect the act/perpetrator of the Fla. shootings...
That's why I asked responses to be limited to the event at hand.lol

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #58)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 04:53 PM

105. It's not about 'deflecting' anything.

 

Its about pointing out to you that the idea that this horrible tragedy will somehow cause the country to change is just a daydream on your part. Why would this change anyones minds when 20 dead little kids didn't? Or are you asking people to 'unite' behind a movement against Muslims?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:29 PM

53. i doubt it

This attack can easily and pretty truthfully be blamed on terrorists.

Also, while most everyone can relate to having kids, which makes Sandy Hook more "real" to them; not everyone has LGBT friends and family, and is thus harder for people to have a "this could happen to me" reaction.

Just look at the countries reaction to AIDS in the 80's. If you weren't gay, essentially nobody gave a shit. It wasn't later until Magic Johnson and possibly Easy-E contracted AIDS that people considered themselves at risk.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Calista241 (Reply #53)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:40 PM

65. I don't think so.... I don't have any LGBT children or relatives...

 

not even close friends... but that STILL doesn't stop me from Hating this monster.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #65)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:42 PM

70. There's a big difference between hating a guy that killed people

and making big, societal changes to your and your neighbor's lives, rights, and what many people consider their "freedoms".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Calista241 (Reply #70)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:44 PM

72. I'm sorry C. ya lost me...what big societal changes did I posit?nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #72)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:45 PM

74. sorry. I was conflating your post with the OP's premise of "is this the last straw"

Which i interpreted as "can we implement effective gun control now that a shitload of people have been shot."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Calista241 (Reply #74)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:47 PM

76. NO way !!!! lol. I'm totally pro second amendment. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:37 PM

63. Last straw for what? For who?

Everyone (well almost everyone) is sad and outraged. We agree on that.

The shooter was a Muslim, on the "FBI radar" but never arrested, and pledged allegiance to ISIS. Score one for anti-Islamic xenophobia. This will certainly re-energize calls for the banning and deportation of Muslims.

Gun control? If Sandy Hook didn't bring about gun control, nothing will. We will hear Wayne LaPierre make the same tired call for everyone to go about armed which --he will argue -- would have stopped the shooter before he could have done so much damage or deterred him altogether. Meanwhile, the left will argue for an AWB that they will never get.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #63)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:41 PM

67. +1000

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #63)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:41 PM

68. another Sandy Hook mention.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)


Response to Th1onein (Reply #66)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:43 PM

71. +1 for the "Bad America team" pitiful.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #71)


Response to clarice (Reply #71)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 07:36 AM

117. Kunduz hospital bombing, 42 dead

US government inarguably responsible, hardly a peep in protest on DU.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:48 PM

79. Maybe Columbine was the last straw. Maybe Sandy Hook was the last straw. Maybe...

Maybe this country has a streak of madness in it, and a gun god that demands blood sacrifices daily.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hekate (Reply #79)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:51 PM

83. Or maybe this incident was perpertrated by a lunatic with....

 

and anti gay, anti American agenda. Would it have made any difference at all if this nut had used poison gas?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #83)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 02:03 PM

92. You can't obtain poison gas legally or easily.

There's no "poison gas rights" lobby that I'm aware of.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:49 PM

80. Well, Clarice - have the lambs stopped screaming?

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Gomez163 (Reply #80)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:51 PM

84. The most sensible post in this thread so far.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Gomez163 (Reply #80)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:52 PM

85. Yes...but I must ask you to re-read the OP and keep you comments on topic.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #85)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:53 PM

87. Sorry. I was being ironic.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Reply #85)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:32 PM

128. Your use of "last straw" invites comparisons to previous incidents

 


You seem frustrated by people bringing up Sandy Hook, Columbine, etc., but you don't seem to understand that your subject line invites discussion of previous incidents by referring to THIS one as the "last straw".

Many people have been out of straws for a while.

No one is disagreeing you, but people are responding to your characterization of this as the "last straw" by pointing out that there is no end to these horrors, and the same thing is said every single time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:51 PM

82. Everyone is already united against terrorism

Islamic terrorism, sad to say, is just getting started. You can't stop it, no matter how united.

It is kinda like how everyone is united to stop crime, yea, most people are good citizens and don't want crime to happen. Yet, it still does.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to One Black Sheep (Reply #82)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 06:30 PM

109. Your post sounds like a threat.

 

nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:53 PM

86. Time for lunch.... be back later.nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 02:03 PM

91. Or maybe it's just another day in America....

 

another day in the decline of a corrupted democracy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 02:09 PM

95. Do you think we should all vote for Trump?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 04:18 PM

100. Here's something to ponder about the GOP:

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 04:34 PM

104. Thread's not quite going how you hoped, is it?

Not surprising since it is basically a "terrorists bad, stfu about the guns and who was targeted" thread.

I guess you weren't quite clear enough on last thread of what- people keep bringing up Sandy Hook cause they assume you meant (or should have meant) gun violence.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 05:08 PM

106. Clarice, you have broken the rules of orthodoxy....

 

and gone beyond the clear failure of not only gun bans as a means of solving a violence problem, but beyond the failure of dialog in general. The reasons for lack of unity are deep and far, far beyond the narrow, failed social policy of gun control. Name the issue, and there is little unity because what brung us to the USA dance in the first place was a set of national myths and legends created by the Mass Media Model. Be it the Big 3 networks, the Dailies, the weekly mags, the goddam Top 40 and Ed Sullivan have all passed by in my adult lifetime. We may have wanted something better with the Innertubes and connectedness, and it may come about down the line, but what we have now is the instant power to discredit anything and anyone at any time. This breeds a profound alienation where the selfies and facebooks do little more than construct a fast-moving self-image; here today, gone tomorrow, with a Lonely Street hangover. Most can put up with this, but many can't, and a few will commit atrocities because the price of legend and myth is cheap with a universal exchange rate: A cure for cancer is as good as shooting up a nightclub, but with too damn much work with too little public notice.

I can (and should) ask you hard questions about What is unity, What is the difference between one atrocity and another? What are the chances your naivete will get anywhere? Are you ignoring bigger questions? But for now, you are the lone picket destroyer in heavy seas at night, trying to inform a fleet you are no longer sure is behind you. I welcome your challenge.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #106)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:14 AM

115. Well, at times of danger, it might make sense to get some unity vs the danger

 

Brit, French or Polish politicians bickering among themselves while Hitler was rising..

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Albertoo (Reply #115)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 02:38 PM

133. You imply we have very broad dangers, and I agree. Much broader than gun policy.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 07:45 AM

118. I wish, but it won't

We'll go back to our lattes and barbeques in a week or two.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:27 PM

127. I don't believe that people are going to allow themselves to be slaughtered much longer.

And people aren't going to be bullied into staying quiet and not connecting dots.

This killers father is a supporter of the Taliban. The killer pledged allegiance to ISIS. Islamic state hates homosexuals, and like the teachings of the religion state, the penalty is death.

What did the killer do? He killed homosexuals.

It's as direct a line as 911 was to Bin Laden.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to patsimp (Reply #127)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:49 PM

131. People Are Idiots

 

A Third of the population will follow and believe Trump.

Americans also let Shrub convince them that the direct line from 9/11 was really to Sadaam.

The American public will allow it, because the odds of it happening to them are low. Most just expect it won't happen to them.

It is just the price of freedom and living in America.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to clarice (Original post)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:45 PM

132. Hello Clarice (Hopkins will always do that better)



You've got much on the ball with those thoughts. IMHO a substantial purpose of terrorist work is the demoralization and division of those targeted. Having blame and bicker party here is probably rather satisfying to those that hate us.


re:
"...the first step would have to be recognizing who is actually responsible for these acts...not "who created the climate" but who actually pulled the trigger."



There's some wisdom. Might be tough to accept but wisdom.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread