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Mon May 2, 2016, 11:33 AM

And people wonder why I have deep concerns about MDs & their drugs

Pick up a copy of this month's edition of Consumer Reports.

What you don't know about your doctor could hurt you

Botched surgeries, substance abuse, sexual misconduct, doctors on probation who are still allowed to practice medicine (and who do not need to tell you).

Kinda helps a gal or guy figure out why their are regularly scheduled Inet attacks on non-toxic health alternatives which might compete against the gross profiteering of the Medical-Pharmaceutical Industrial Complex, Inc.

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Reply And people wonder why I have deep concerns about MDs & their drugs (Original post)
AxionExcel May 2016 OP
Brickbat May 2016 #1
AxionExcel May 2016 #4
Android3.14 May 2016 #5
forest444 May 2016 #34
Android3.14 May 2016 #50
forest444 May 2016 #53
LanternWaste May 2016 #7
AxionExcel May 2016 #13
Humanist_Activist May 2016 #59
HuckleB May 2016 #61
rjsquirrel May 2016 #2
AxionExcel May 2016 #6
Viva_La_Revolution May 2016 #11
PatSeg May 2016 #29
progressoid May 2016 #30
MisterP May 2016 #3
longship May 2016 #8
TheDormouse May 2016 #14
longship May 2016 #20
TheDormouse May 2016 #22
A Simple Game May 2016 #33
longship May 2016 #40
A Simple Game May 2016 #44
longship May 2016 #46
longship May 2016 #47
AtheistCrusader May 2016 #27
TheDormouse May 2016 #39
AtheistCrusader May 2016 #48
Major Nikon May 2016 #64
PatSeg May 2016 #19
longship May 2016 #21
PatSeg May 2016 #23
longship May 2016 #24
ProfessorGAC May 2016 #9
AxionExcel May 2016 #12
Iggo May 2016 #10
TheDormouse May 2016 #15
HuckleB May 2016 #16
AxionExcel May 2016 #31
trotsky May 2016 #36
Major Nikon May 2016 #41
HuckleB May 2016 #42
TheDormouse May 2016 #17
jtuck004 May 2016 #18
Iggo May 2016 #25
trotsky May 2016 #37
jtuck004 May 2016 #45
AtheistCrusader May 2016 #26
Moostache May 2016 #28
tkmorris May 2016 #32
Major Nikon May 2016 #35
Madmiddle May 2016 #38
COLGATE4 May 2016 #51
Humanist_Activist May 2016 #55
HuckleB May 2016 #56
Humanist_Activist May 2016 #57
HuckleB May 2016 #58
TexasBushwhacker May 2016 #43
AtheistCrusader May 2016 #49
Odin2005 May 2016 #52
Iggo May 2016 #54
AxionExcel May 2016 #60
Iggo May 2016 #62
Major Nikon May 2016 #63
arikara May 2016 #65
LineLineNew Reply .
Iggo May 2016 #67
dembotoz May 2016 #66
GeorgeGist May 2016 #68

Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 11:45 AM

1. People who provide "nontoxic health alternatives" are angels?

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #1)

Mon May 2, 2016, 11:56 AM

4. If you say so...

The OP is not about angels, but rather about MDs and their often toxic, usually overpriced pills -- and the shocking state of the profession, and the damage they do to patients.

You'll have to check with Consumer Reports on the angels thingy you are concerned about.

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #4)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:15 PM

5. I dunno, but it sounds like your OP comment is about promoting woo.

 

I'm all for non-toxic solutions to health problems including chiropractic care, certain herbs, and regular meditation, but your phrasing of "non-toxic health alternatives" seems to indicate support for snake oil rather than rigorously tested health solutions or lifestyles that support health.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #5)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:09 PM

34. 'Rigorously tested' by whom? The FDA?

Like they rigorously tested Vioxx, Celebrex, Crestor, Xarelto, Oxycontin, and so many other drugs that we now know to be more harmful than the condition they were approved to treat?

This isn't to say that all prescription medicine is a problem. But if the FDA approved it from 1990 onward, it's definitely worth taking with a grain of salt - if not avoiding outright.

Because frankly the only thing those FDA grease monkeys are good at testing, is the revolving door into a seven-figure plum job at Big Phama.

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Response to forest444 (Reply #34)

Mon May 2, 2016, 03:55 PM

50. I don't know about the OP, but dismissing the FDA is nonsense

 

Without the FDA you get thalidomide babies.
?version=1&modificationDate=1208492654000&api=v2

Everything is worth a grain of salt, especially with the side effects of modern medications, but to dismiss government testing of medication in favor of chakra aligning reiki monkeys armed with magic stones and magnets in their stylish anti-vaxxer spirit bracelets is a travesty.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #50)

Mon May 2, 2016, 04:23 PM

53. They were indeed great once. But that's just resting on laurels.

Because over the past 25 years, other than rubber-stamping Big Pharma's snake oil in hopes of landing a plum job for themselves as a reward, they really haven't done much for us have they now.

Teddy Roosevelt would certainly be disappointed - outraged, actually - at seeing that his once magnificent FDA (the model for such agencies around the world) has basically now become a third world-style influence peddling racket.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #1)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:26 PM

7. I don't think criticism of A implies acceptance of B.

 

I don't think criticism of A implies acceptance of B. Inferring as such seems irrational.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #7)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:48 PM

13. + 1

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #7)

Mon May 2, 2016, 05:15 PM

59. But it is reasonable to infer such based on past post history.

 

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #7)

Mon May 2, 2016, 06:01 PM

61. Except that the OP has a history of support for B.

No matter how much he/she/they deny it.

And I think you know that, too.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)


Response to rjsquirrel (Reply #2)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:15 PM

6. I've not expressed any support for alternative therapies

I've only noted that there are systematic regularly scheduled attacks on non-toxic health alternatives (and also, it's worth noting, regular attacks on clean, non-toxic food).

For me that systemic pattern of attack raises questions. It should raise questions for others as well.



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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #6)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:31 PM

11. it does, everytime they post

No worries

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #6)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:46 PM

29. I have seen this pattern

in any thread regarding GMOs or Monsanto as well. It tends to be consistent and very predictable. Must be a playbook somewhere, "How to provoke and paint everything in black and white terms, while denigrating the poster's intelligence".

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #6)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:48 PM

30. Riiight. Except when you have promoted it in your special passive-aggressive way

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:27 PM

8. Oh dear!

What's the alternative?

Chiropractic? Homeopathy? Reiki? Acupuncture? Or maybe fucking faith healing! They are all the same! Useless and harmful. None of them do any good whatsoever.

Medicine is based on science, not wishes and hopes. It isn't perfect, but it is the only thing that has evidence that it actually works. Try curing your malaria or your cancer with homeopathy and you will tragically learn the truth, and the lies of the homeopaths, just like all the rest of alternative medicine.

There is no alternative medicine. There is only medicine, based on science.

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Response to longship (Reply #8)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:52 PM

14. Well said. Except placebo effect ain't nothing.

Placebos can be pretty powerful.

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Response to TheDormouse (Reply #14)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:08 PM

20. Placebos are the null effect, by definition!

There are no placebo effects beyond non-specific symptoms. Placebos do not, and cannot, cure disease. Any argument to the contrary is abject rubbish.

So take your placebo medicine when you are dying. It may help your perception of pain, but it will not stop the progress of your disease.

That's why there is always a placebo arm in drug trials. One wants to factor out those factors which have no contribution to a cure.

So stop ringing that cockamamie placebo bell. Placebos do not work against any disease.

Here: https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-placebo-effect/

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Response to longship (Reply #20)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:12 PM

22. Sorry, but you're wrong--placebo effects ARE stronger than doing nothing

That's the very reason why placebos are included in controlled trials!

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Response to longship (Reply #20)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:56 PM

33. Wow you sure are on a rip and tear aren't you?

Why do you assume everything people go to a doctor for is a disease? Placebos are the most common cure for depression in use today. As for chiropractic and acupuncture, I know many people have had very good results with for various maladies. Placebo effect? Maybe, but it works for them so why should you care? How about diet and exercise? Are they completely useless for high cholesterol and obesity not to mention many other things? How about something as simple as using aloe on a burn?

Don't be so short sighted, drugs are prescribed for much more that just diseases and often unnecessarily.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #33)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:23 PM

40. You know people?

That would be called anecdotal evidence, which in medicine is no evidence whatsoever.

It is like the rain dance fallacy. I danced and I danced. And eventually the rains came.Of course, the rains eventually would come whether one dances or not.

It is science that informs medicine, not lunatic magical thinking. What in the Sam Hell are subluxations (chiropractic)? Is there any science behind such a thing?

So how does acupuncture work? Simple. It doesn't. That is other than the fact that one is sticking needles into ones flesh. And how does that do anything other than inflict more pain? Oh! That's right. There's Qi (spelt backwards is "crap".

And, oh fucking dear! Then there's homeopathy, which is as close to doing nothing as one can get. You are going to travel to a place where there is malaria? Here, let me give you nothing for it. You have cancer? Don't bother with that doctor. Let me give you nothing. Homeopathy is nothing. I cannot see any rational person supporting such a ridiculous concept.

Science informs medicine. Get used to that.

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Response to longship (Reply #40)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:48 PM

44. I agree with you about homeopathy, but maybe you could try it to cure your fixation about it.

Again you seem fixed on disease, what disease does a chiropractor claim to be able to cure? Ever hear of massage therapy? Think it works for it's intended purpose? As for acupuncture, I don't know if it inflicts more pain or not, never tried it. But others have for centuries and seem to have positive results for what ails them.

I noticed you ignored my reference to placebos being the go to cure for depression, why is that?

From your "You know people?" I see from your insult you know you have already lost the argument and have nothing left to contribute, thanks for the acknowledgment.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #44)

Mon May 2, 2016, 03:09 PM

46. Science informs medicine.

And again, placebo is, by definition, a null effect. That is why all medical studies include a placebo branch. Because placebos do nothing whatsoever, beyond the intervention of the doctor, who if they do nothing, leaves the intervention as the only variable. That means that the actual intervention can be measured against the null hypothesis -- that the intervention does no better than doing nothing.

Medical research is not easy. It certainly must ignore anecdotal evidence because biology is a very messy affair. The placebo effect is important enough (and yet impotent) that it is the measure by which advances in medicine rise to being useful.

Placebo medicine is, by definition, useless.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #44)

Mon May 2, 2016, 03:18 PM

47. Chiropractic?

What are subluxations?

And why do people think that folks thousands of years in the past knew more about biology and medicine than today's scientists. Could it be: Ancient Chinese secrets! How is that a rational argument?

Pray tell!

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Response to TheDormouse (Reply #14)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:37 PM

27. Placebos only work on people who believe it's real.

If they know it's a sugar pill, it does nothing. So technically Longships claim is correct.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #27)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:22 PM

39. If they know it does nothing, it's not a placebo

by definition

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Response to TheDormouse (Reply #39)

Mon May 2, 2016, 03:50 PM

48. We're all friends here, let's not get angry over semantics.

I'll try to stop doing it too.

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Response to TheDormouse (Reply #39)

Mon May 2, 2016, 07:37 PM

64. The same can be said for witchdoctors and voodoo practitioners

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Response to longship (Reply #8)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:08 PM

19. It has been my experience

that we are now dealing with "Medicine based on profit" more than "science" these days, which can be very harmful to one's health. The Hippocratic Oath, "First do no harm" seems to have been replaced with excessive drugs and invasive treatments that profit providers, medical equipment companies, and pharmaceutical companies.

When the treatment is more harmful than the disease, that is not science OR it is really bad science.

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #19)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:12 PM

21. Which treatments are worse than the disease?

I'll wait patiently for your list. BTW, do not dare cite cancer.

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Response to longship (Reply #21)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:17 PM

23. Sorry

That is too personal for me and I feel like I'm being baited. There is plenty of documented evidence out there if you are really interested, which I don't think you are.

Do not feel that it is necessary to respond.

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #23)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:19 PM

24. Oh deary dear!

I apologize if I offended you personally. If you are a cancer survivor, I assure you that I have no intention to offend.

However, it is my position that placebo medicine -- and I use that terminology loosely -- is abject quackery.

Chiropractic, acupuncture, reiki and other healing non-touches, Qi (which when spelled backwards is "crap", and fucking homeopathy which by their own definition is nothing whatsoever, are not medicine. And don't get me started about so-called "energy medicine" (that lunatic Depak Chopra!).

Medicine works because it is based on science and biology. Any counter arguments should be dismissed. There is no magic medicine. And sometimes real medicine involves invasive and uncomfortable procedures. It is only a fool who would think that physicians routinely do such things merely to fill their bank accounts.

If you are a cancer survivor, you should know that.

My best to you.



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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:29 PM

9. Willfully Provocative

And wholly unnecessary

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #9)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:47 PM

12. Wow. That's exactly what I think about the regularly scheduled attacks on non-toxic health care

...and so I am providing much-needed balance. The Medical-Pharmaceutical Industry's relentless attacks to try and stomp out competition are indeed "willfully provocative" and "wholly unnecessary."

As Consumer Reports makes plain, they really should clean up their own house.



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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:30 PM

10. Yeah, I don't wonder that at all. (n/t)

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:53 PM

15. I must be living under a rock

Somehow I have missed out on all these regularly scheduled systematic attacks.
Maybe I spend too much time on DU.

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Response to TheDormouse (Reply #15)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:55 PM

16. The OP thinks DUers should be ok with alt med scams.

And doesn't appreciate DUers who want to regulate things so people are protected from them.

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #16)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:49 PM

31. Woo woo. So now you are claiming to have psychic powers?

And so you imagine that you know what I think, even though I have not said it?

Get a clue: Woo is Taboo on DU. Please try to control your psychic ideation.

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #31)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:19 PM

36. You bet it's taboo.

It's why you've been banned from DU under previous usernames.

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #31)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:26 PM

41. Psychic secrets revealed

AxionExcel = SpiralHawk, banned for shall we say an overactive imagination.

[strike]SpiralHawk[/strike], er AxionExcel promoting "Woo"

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #31)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:28 PM

42. LOL! You think people haven't read your posts?

Last edited Mon May 2, 2016, 04:00 PM - Edit history (2)



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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:56 PM

17. "Trick or Treatment" by Edzard Ernst & Simon Singh

Fantastic read that I heartily recommend.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:03 PM

18. Oklahoma Dentist Exposed 7,000 Patients To HIV & Hepatitis By Using Dirty Instruments

 


And this wasn't just a DDS - this fella was board certified and had extra training to be a dr death.

"Patients of a dentist’s office in Oklahoma have been warned that they may have been exposed to HIV and hepatitis B and C, thanks to the faulty sterilization practices of Dr. W. Scott Harrington. Officials from the Tulsa Health Department warned 7,000 patients that they may have contracted the viruses.
One of Harrington’s patients tested positive for both HIV and hepatitis C after a having a dental procedure done , prompting the Oklahoma Board of Dentistry to conduct a surprise inspection of the practice, earlier in the month."
...
- See more at: http://hiphopwired.com/2013/03/29/oklahoma-dentist-exposed-7000-patients-to-hiv-hepatitis-by-using-dirty-instruments/#sthash.7nJYtcG9.dpuf





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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #18)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:27 PM

25. Doesn't change the fact that dentistry is real and it works.

Homeopathy, not so much.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #25)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:20 PM

37. No dude, don't you get it?

I have an example of a dentist harming people. That means that ALL of the "medical-industrial complex" is trying to kill us. It's only logical!!

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Response to Iggo (Reply #25)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:48 PM

45. Your point is very good in general. Most deniers got that one down...

 



“The most monstrous monster is the monster with noble feelings”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky

And the self-righteous and all-knowing have brought us so much...


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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:34 PM

26. Where can I find this schedule for attacking alternative bullshit?

My handler forgot to provide me a copy, and he's late on my paycheck too.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:37 PM

28. Forest for the trees folks, forest for the trees...

The old phrase "can't see the forest for the trees" is apt throughout our pathetic society these days.

Military-Industrial Complex
Medical-Industrial Complex
Prison-Industrial Complex
Agro-Industrial Complex

The problem is not a "complex", nor is it the leading hyphenation term du jour, the real issue is Industrial societal organization on unrestrained capitalist terms. Greed, pure and simple. Greed, Gordon Gecko notwithstanding, is definitely NOT good. Not good for the poor. Not good for the existence of a middle class. Not good for the powerless. Not good for life not called "human". Not good for 99.9% of actual human life. Greed is the inevitable driver of unrestrained capitalism.

This is not coincidence, nor was it unpredictable. Its certainly no mystery to anyone older than 3.
What we are seeing in the 21st century is the logical and ONLY outcome possible when industry is allowed free reign over all facets of life on this planet during the twilight of the 20th century.

Corporate externalization.
Repeal of Glass-Steagall.
NAFTA.
World Bank.
G8.
Practical de-funding of SEC.
Revolving door at Treasury from Wall Street.
Obfuscation on climate change.
And on and on and on and on...

There are people here who care.
There are even some on the opposition party side who understand and care as well.
There just don't seem to be enough to stop the wheel at this point...every day starts to feel like getting up after beating beaten down further than the day before.

Its depressing on a global scale.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:54 PM

32. Every service industry has issues such as these

There are always those who put profit above principle, are incompetent, or the rare few who are outright malevalent. That is unfortunate but it is a part of life. Caveat emptor, and all that.

The trouble is that if you need the service they provide, there is no superior alternative. If you need your car repaired you might quite rightly worry about the competence and/or honesty of a mechanic picked sight unseen from the phone book, but choosing instead to have a random person off the local street corner do the work instead is pure folly. A competent mechanic is ALWAYS going to be better than some clown with automobile healing crystal pyramids. Medicine is no different in this regard. The trick is to find the right doctor, not to dismiss all medicine and look for answers elsewhere.

And no, it is not fair to compare criticism of conventional medicine here with the scrutiny given to homeopathy or the like. Say what you will about conventional medicine; the fact remains that it DOES work. Perhaps not as well as you would like, and it is not without nefarious individuals practicing it, but it DOES work. Homeopathy does not. It CANNOT. The two things are not comparable, and it is absurd to claim that they are. The same goes for the vast majority of "alternative" therapies. There may well be a few (out of tens of thousands) that have some positive benefit but I can assure you that if they do they will not remain alternative for long. That's how science works.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:14 PM

35. Proof homeoquackery works!

Not

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:21 PM

38. Our barbaric medical profession here in the Us is in a sad state.

 

Doctors would rather write perscriptions versus advicing you on your diet and exercise.

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Response to Madmiddle (Reply #38)

Mon May 2, 2016, 03:59 PM

51. Yep. You go and diet and exercise that

chlamydia away.

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Response to Madmiddle (Reply #38)

Mon May 2, 2016, 05:09 PM

55. What doctor doesn't recommend diet and exercise? Seriously, who the fuck are you seeing?

 

Obviously this is when its appropriate, I don't know of any doctor who would recommend you run track on bad knees, etc. But every doctor that I've seen tries everything they can to avoid writing prescriptions if they feel they shouldn't be necessary.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #55)

Mon May 2, 2016, 05:10 PM

56. Exactly.

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #56)

Mon May 2, 2016, 05:12 PM

57. Is it appropriate for me to give myself kudos?

 

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #57)

Mon May 2, 2016, 05:14 PM

58. Drat!

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:28 PM

43. I am aware that doctors make mistakes

There is a big problems with doctors are unwilling to testify against each other. Nevertheless, we live longer now than we lived decades ago . Poor people without good medical care die younger. Our healthcare system may not be perfect, but for the people with insurance it's pretty good.

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Response to TexasBushwhacker (Reply #43)

Mon May 2, 2016, 03:54 PM

49. And the 'ability to pay' issues can be addressed without damaging that inherent goodness

of the overall health care system.

Yeah, there's things that could be done even better. More humanely.
There's a shitload of people working on that right now, as well.

And society needs a little wrenching-on too. This country has yet to have a meaningful dialog on end of life care, quality of life, etc. It's apparently a thing that just scares the shit out of us, and induces very real human and capital costs for just the last two months of life for an enormous number of people.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 04:06 PM

52. LOL, those evil doctors just saved my leg from a staph infection.

I prefer real medicine over the bullshit you fawn over.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #52)

Mon May 2, 2016, 04:45 PM

54. But water that "remembers" how to cure staph is just as good.

Woo-juice is science because a doctor killed somebody that time.

It has to be true because I want it to be true.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #52)

Mon May 2, 2016, 05:38 PM

60. Bravo. I applaud the doctors, and congratulate you on your recovery!

I'm by no means opposed to medical science, and have both seen and experienced tremendous good come from it. Likewise I have seen tremendous good come from non-toxic alternative health approaches.

But as Consumer Reports makes plain this month, there are widespread serious problems in the Medical Industrial Complex, Inc. Beyond the statistics and stories of caution the magazine presents, I should add that I personally have witnessed friends and family not only enjoy great blessings but also suffer horrible debiltating health consequences because of botched medical industrial systems and personnel.

So it's a mixed bag out there. In my view, health is a personal responsibility, and that extends beyond diet and exercise to wise selection of health practitioners.

Regular bashing of non-toxic forms of health care is a staple on the Net. That regular bashing or bullying - I feel - must be regarded in the light of Corporate Competition for Money Bucks. Because that is, alas, the driving engine of the Medical-Pharmaceutical Industrial Complex.

That's why I start these threads. To tell the other side of the story, and to put the bashing or non-toxic health care and non-toxic food in the proper context of competition for consumer mediBucks.





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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #60)

Mon May 2, 2016, 06:24 PM

62. Just because there's problems with the business of real medicine...

...doesn't mean that homeopathy isn't complete bullshit.

Because it is.

Complete bullshit.

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #60)

Mon May 2, 2016, 07:04 PM

63. You mean you are pushing homeoquackery again

[strike]SpiralHawk[/strike], er AxionExcel promoting "Woo"

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:07 PM

65. The dog pile and woo flinging is getting worse than ever around here.

We used to be able to talk about stuff without all this. I'm going to go through this thread, put a bunch on ignore then post something about energy healing.

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Response to arikara (Reply #65)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:52 PM

67. .

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:15 PM

66. anticipate i will use prescription drugs over quackery

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Tue May 3, 2016, 08:20 AM

68. Maple syrup is non toxic ...

and doesn't cure meningitis.

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