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Arizona Roadrunner

(168 posts)
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:06 AM Apr 2016

A BB gun is a weapon!

Recently heard about a kid getting shot by police who was carrying a BB gun that looked like "a real gun". His parents apparently equated a BB gun with a toy gun. Sorry folks but a BB gun is a "real gun" with limited capabilities but it can still kill and or injure someone if they are hit with a BB in the right places. It is not a toy gun!!!!

Why are parents letting their kids out of the house with a BB gun? They frankly are responsible for this kid getting shot by a police officer. Yes police officers need to be well trained and better trained regarding when and how to use their lethal weapons. But when you have "toy guns" and especially BB guns that look just like regular pistols, there are real issues involved.

22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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A BB gun is a weapon! (Original Post) Arizona Roadrunner Apr 2016 OP
When I was a kid, we played with bb guns gwheezie Apr 2016 #1
Actually I knew a couple of guys that lost eyes to BB guns n/t TexasBushwhacker Apr 2016 #22
If you are going to give your kids guns real or not, teach them to put them down when told liberal N proud Apr 2016 #2
And leave the orange cap on it! I read my son the riot act for removing the one on his AirSoft gun. GreenPartyVoter Apr 2016 #3
Was Tamir Rice give that opportunity in Raine1967 Apr 2016 #4
I never heard any audio on that situation so I can't judge it liberal N proud Apr 2016 #5
I accept your apology. Iggo Apr 2016 #6
No, a BB gun is a toy gun dumbcat Apr 2016 #7
Not according to the law TorchTheWitch Apr 2016 #9
Please cite such Federal law dumbcat Apr 2016 #10
There are several court cases nadinbrzezinski Apr 2016 #11
Remember, court case precedents dumbcat Apr 2016 #12
One is USSC nadinbrzezinski Apr 2016 #17
Here you go nadinbrzezinski Apr 2016 #21
ok TorchTheWitch Apr 2016 #13
So New Jersey and Rhode Island consider them firearms dumbcat Apr 2016 #14
I never once said they were "weapons" nor claimed they were "firearms" TorchTheWitch Apr 2016 #19
You are correct dumbcat Apr 2016 #20
A kid in our community killed himself messing around with a BB gun. hunter Apr 2016 #15
This message was self-deleted by its author dumbcat Apr 2016 #16
I found this really difficult to believe Egnever Apr 2016 #18
Not sure this meets GD standards, but some good may come of it... Eleanors38 Apr 2016 #8

gwheezie

(3,580 posts)
1. When I was a kid, we played with bb guns
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:14 AM
Apr 2016

"You'll put your eye out". Here's what I think the problem is and I hear it from cops. So many people have guns that they assume people are armed.

liberal N proud

(60,938 posts)
2. If you are going to give your kids guns real or not, teach them to put them down when told
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:41 AM
Apr 2016

If a cop tells you to lower your weapon, DO IT.

Teach your kids to DO IT!

GreenPartyVoter

(73,023 posts)
3. And leave the orange cap on it! I read my son the riot act for removing the one on his AirSoft gun.
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:50 AM
Apr 2016

He wanted to hide better at tournaments, but I told him that was not OK with me.

liberal N proud

(60,938 posts)
5. I never heard any audio on that situation so I can't judge it
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 01:02 PM
Apr 2016

Just the same, the kid had a real looking gun. That is nuts

dumbcat

(2,128 posts)
7. No, a BB gun is a toy gun
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 01:56 PM
Apr 2016

A real gun is a firearm, and there are specific definitions in law.

You can rant and rave all you wish, but a BB gun is not a "real gun." It is a toy. Period.

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
9. Not according to the law
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 03:00 PM
Apr 2016

Any kind of gun that shoots out any kind of projectile is legally not classified as a toy and why they are exempt from having the orange tip signifying a toy gun. BB guns can kill or seriously injure someone if they are hit in the right place especially at close range. They are NOT toys. Toys do not shoot projectiles that can seriously injure or kill. Period.

dumbcat

(2,128 posts)
10. Please cite such Federal law
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 03:55 PM
Apr 2016

Some municipal, and maybe even state laws stretch things. Can you cite one? 18 USC? BATFE Regs?

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
11. There are several court cases
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 04:11 PM
Apr 2016

On this. When I get home, notes aren't here, I can give it to you. It came up in court hearing today ironic, I know. I didn't feel adding those in the actual news story.

dumbcat

(2,128 posts)
12. Remember, court case precedents
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 04:41 PM
Apr 2016

only count in their jurisdictions. And Calif. is one of those states where the courts have really stretched the law as written. And their definitions don't apply in other states.

I asked the previous poster to kindly cite law.

Maybe 18 USC Sec. 921 to start.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
17. One is USSC
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 08:56 PM
Apr 2016

And to 72 in fact Garner v Tennessee going still from memory. The question was the definition of a dangerous or deadly weapon

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
21. Here you go
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:17 PM
Apr 2016

People V Blake
Tennessee V Garner
People V Graham

And here is the news story. Realize this were used by the DA in the context of what is a dangerous weapon, due to the deployment but never use of Pepper spray.

https://reportingsandiego.com/2016/04/28/branch-bound-for-trial/

This was one long assed prelim as well. I can't wait for the actual trial!

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
13. ok
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 06:41 PM
Apr 2016
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/08/5-bb-gun-laws-you-need-to-know.html#sthash.BIwB6wMQ.dpuf

"What are the laws regarding BB guns? Here are five you need to know:

1) BB guns aren't required to have orange-tipped barrels. Under federal law, imitation firearms are required to have blaze orange barrel tips. But the statute specifically exempts "traditional BB or pellet-firing air guns" from the requirement.

(snip)

3) There's a difference between BB guns and Airsoft guns. Although, like BB guns, Airsoft guns are manufactured to look like real weapons and use air pressure to fire a projectile, the difference lies in the type of projectile fired: Airsoft guns fire plastic projectiles while BB guns and pellet guns fire metal projectiles. The two are therefore often subject to different laws. For example, Airsoft guns are required by federal law to have the same orange-tipped barrels as toy and other imitation guns."

Goes on to say that two states (New Jersey and Rhode Island) treat BB and pellet guns as "firearms" while NYC requires a license to possess or sell them.


The relevant federal law that expressly exempts BB and pellet guns from being required to have the orange tip signifying they are a toy:

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/15/76/5001


Further:

http://wdtn.com/2014/10/06/why-bb-guns-are-not-required-to-have-orange-tips/

(snip)

Centerville gun shop owner John Thyne says they should be considered weapons.

"They can cause bodily harm. They can actually kill someone if its hit in the right location," said Thyne.

He says there are not a lot of laws when it comes to BB and pellet guns although many cities have codes that don’t allow them to be shot off in town.

Natalie: Do you think there should be stricter rules?

"Yeah I really do. I'm obviously pro second amendment and all the stuff for personal rights but I think that gun is a weapon and there are BB guns today or pellet guns that are, in some cases, more powerful than .22s," said Thyne.

(/snip)


dumbcat

(2,128 posts)
14. So New Jersey and Rhode Island consider them firearms
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 07:32 PM
Apr 2016

and thus weapons. None of the info you provided shows any other law defining BB guns to be weapons. They are not considered weapons by the feds or other states.

Centerville gun shop owner John Thyne says they should be considered weapons.

I'm sorry, but I do not consider a gun shop owner to be an authoritative legal cite. I can find a gun shop owner that will say BB guns should not be considered weapons, especially here in Texas, where they are not.

I'll go along with you in saying that BB guns can be dangerous, and should be treated with respect and in a safe manner, just like many tools, but I will not consider them weapons, to be regulated as such, and are certainly not firearms (regardless of what New Jersey or Rhode Island legislators say.)

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
19. I never once said they were "weapons" nor claimed they were "firearms"
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:32 PM
Apr 2016

I said that they were LEGALLY not considered toys thus not requiring the orange tip signifying them as toys.

Per your request, I gave you the relevant federal statute that clearly explicitly states that BB guns and pellet guns are EXEMPT from having the orange tip signifying they are toys because they are NOT considered toys according to federal law. Only two states consider them to be actual legal "firearms" (New Jersey and Rhode Island) though I don't know if I entirely agree with that... not that is matters, because the law is what it is and what you asked for. They fall into the gray area of federal law where they are not considered "firearms" where they would have to be regulated as any bullet firing firearm yet by federal law they are not considered to be toys EITHER thus not being required to have the orange tip that signifies them as such.

Clearly you have lost sight of the issue here. People - often young children - are purchasing or having purchased for them projectile firing guns that are not toys by federal law with no distinguishing mark (the orange tip) that marks them as a toy and that look entirely like an actual legal "firearm". THIS IS OBVIOUSLY THE PROBLEM. And it is a problem that is regularly getting people including young children maimed and killed.

And if you want to play more word games... though I never said they were legally "weapons" (although any damn thing can be used as a weapon) they most certainly ARE weapons when they can KILL by being struck by the projectiles they fire, which is WHY I brought up the statement by the gun dealer who believes they SHOULD be regulated more stringently and when some of these guns are more powerful/lethal than a .22 that IS a legal "firearm" and thus regulated as such. When a gun dealer of all people says that they are dangerous and may be more lethal than a .22 legal firearm it's PASSED time to do something about it instead of brushing it off as if these things are just harmless toys when they are very clearly NOT.

Merely slapping a warning sticker on the package while they are marketed to kids and not even locked up in cases but sitting on store shelves is a huge part of the problem - and it is that way because the laws regarding them SUCK so badly that people and often young kids are being maimed and killed because they and their parents have been lead to believe they are just toys. They are NOT toys and not LEGALLY considered toys. PERIOD.

dumbcat

(2,128 posts)
20. You are correct
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:46 PM
Apr 2016

It was the OP that called them weapons. And I see your cites and logic in them not being considered "toys." I concede.

Having said all that, I agree that "toy" or realistic replicas of guns are a bad idea. I never allowed my son to have them, and if i were King of the World I would ban them.

hunter

(38,881 posts)
15. A kid in our community killed himself messing around with a BB gun.
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 07:47 PM
Apr 2016

Some air guns are quite powerful.

I live in a community with a very high murder rate; lots of gang shootings, most of it gang-on-gang with the occasional innocent bystander.

Reasonable parents don't let their kids play with guns, toys or not.

The cops are quick to shoot anyone who even looks like they have a weapon.

Response to hunter (Reply #15)

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
8. Not sure this meets GD standards, but some good may come of it...
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 01:57 PM
Apr 2016

Any child given a BB gun should receive instruction in safe and ethical use (to include dropping the arm if told to do so by LEO), not shooting at bottles (often, BBs bounce of glass, and in any case, leave a eco mess greater than shooting cans), and sparing wildlife.

I was raised on and near several acres of woods, and we roamed the woods as "hunters." This isn't wise in typical urban and suburban settings, given the panic over and culture war with armed civilians. Above all, don't give out a BB gun to a child with no instruction, and assume there is an inherent margin of safety.

Incidentally, the technologies and number of companies (esp. in Europe) which make "airguns" has increased tremendously. Some airguns are quite suitable for clean-kill hunting, and can cost as much as a conventional rifle.

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