HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Sorry... a $15 minimum wa...

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:14 AM

Sorry... a $15 minimum wage is too high


The depreciation of the minimum wage from its high point in 1968 is scandalous. If merely adjusted to inflation that $1.60 of 1968 would be worth $10.95 today.

We've built too much of the economy around the exploitation of these MW workers... and all those who fall between $7.25 and that $10.95. If the MW had merely been adjusted to inflation every year the economy would have had time to adjust. Instead the economy has become addicted to this exploitation... and no doubt this has played a huge role in how the the bottom quintile's share of national aggregate income has gone down 28% since 1974 while the top quintile has gone up 32%.

That being said, $15 may be fine in urban areas but as a national MW $15 would cause enormous disruptions... especially since we've foolishly allowed US companies to outsource and bring back their good from cheap labor nations. And yes, moving to even that $10.95 will cause disruptions. This adjustment alone would mean a whopping $7300 a year more for a full time MW worker. But there's a strong moral case that this is a wrong that must be corrected. A caveat, that perhaps if we went to Single Payer, this would free up employer resources to justify a MW higher than $10.95.

244 replies, 14936 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 244 replies Author Time Post
Reply Sorry... a $15 minimum wage is too high (Original post)
eniwetok Apr 2016 OP
revbones Apr 2016 #1
merrily Apr 2016 #5
daleanime Apr 2016 #77
eniwetok Apr 2016 #14
Major Nikon Apr 2016 #25
eniwetok Apr 2016 #80
Major Nikon Apr 2016 #95
eniwetok Apr 2016 #115
Major Nikon Apr 2016 #121
eniwetok Apr 2016 #136
Major Nikon Apr 2016 #147
eniwetok Apr 2016 #173
Lancero Apr 2016 #174
eniwetok Apr 2016 #177
lunasun Apr 2016 #227
LanternWaste Apr 2016 #31
eniwetok Apr 2016 #42
LanternWaste Apr 2016 #85
eniwetok Apr 2016 #91
Maedhros Apr 2016 #63
SammyWinstonJack Apr 2016 #119
eniwetok Apr 2016 #135
yuiyoshida Apr 2016 #226
eniwetok Apr 2016 #238
Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #54
eniwetok Apr 2016 #97
AlbertCat Apr 2016 #228
Kittycat Apr 2016 #104
pnwmom Apr 2016 #154
eniwetok Apr 2016 #159
pnwmom Apr 2016 #160
revbones Apr 2016 #165
pnwmom Apr 2016 #166
revbones Apr 2016 #167
eniwetok Apr 2016 #175
AlbertCat Apr 2016 #229
revbones Apr 2016 #207
Shoulders of Giants Apr 2016 #206
eniwetok Apr 2016 #209
HERVEPA Apr 2016 #2
jonno99 Apr 2016 #3
Iggo Apr 2016 #4
desmiller Apr 2016 #6
greymattermom Apr 2016 #7
ohnoyoudidnt Apr 2016 #151
awake Apr 2016 #8
eniwetok Apr 2016 #61
awake Apr 2016 #88
eniwetok Apr 2016 #98
awake Apr 2016 #99
eniwetok Apr 2016 #210
rockfordfile Apr 2016 #137
eniwetok Apr 2016 #163
HoustonDave Apr 2016 #237
Cobalt Violet Apr 2016 #9
eniwetok Apr 2016 #17
Old Codger Apr 2016 #20
hfojvt Apr 2016 #33
Old Codger Apr 2016 #52
hfojvt Apr 2016 #58
shraby Apr 2016 #109
Old Codger Apr 2016 #123
Rex Apr 2016 #51
cheapdate Apr 2016 #79
Old Codger Apr 2016 #125
lunasun Apr 2016 #232
SammyWinstonJack Apr 2016 #122
tkmorris Apr 2016 #34
eniwetok Apr 2016 #72
Skittles Apr 2016 #105
yuiyoshida Apr 2016 #230
Skittles Apr 2016 #241
bemildred Apr 2016 #10
EL34x4 Apr 2016 #13
Glassunion Apr 2016 #15
bemildred Apr 2016 #16
LanternWaste Apr 2016 #32
ohnoyoudidnt Apr 2016 #181
killbotfactory Apr 2016 #19
bemildred Apr 2016 #21
tkmorris Apr 2016 #107
bemildred Apr 2016 #124
Reter Apr 2016 #169
bemildred Apr 2016 #180
ohnoyoudidnt Apr 2016 #182
killbotfactory Apr 2016 #11
Depaysement Apr 2016 #12
Flyingbird5066 Apr 2016 #18
TipTok Apr 2016 #45
Travis_0004 Apr 2016 #57
Chan790 Apr 2016 #126
R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2016 #22
eniwetok Apr 2016 #67
ish of the hammer Apr 2016 #23
eniwetok Apr 2016 #75
Kip Humphrey Apr 2016 #24
truebluegreen Apr 2016 #70
eniwetok Apr 2016 #101
Odin2005 Apr 2016 #145
eniwetok Apr 2016 #161
eniwetok Apr 2016 #164
gsb54 Apr 2016 #26
Doremus Apr 2016 #221
gsb54 Apr 2016 #224
JackInGreen Apr 2016 #27
Starry Messenger Apr 2016 #28
L. Coyote Apr 2016 #29
eniwetok Apr 2016 #118
Javaman Apr 2016 #30
1939 Apr 2016 #94
Javaman Apr 2016 #106
1939 Apr 2016 #150
PETRUS Apr 2016 #185
1939 Apr 2016 #188
PETRUS Apr 2016 #199
Aristus Apr 2016 #35
zalinda Apr 2016 #36
haele Apr 2016 #65
1939 Apr 2016 #189
mike_c Apr 2016 #37
hfojvt Apr 2016 #48
mike_c Apr 2016 #108
Chan790 Apr 2016 #127
eniwetok Apr 2016 #134
Chan790 Apr 2016 #138
eniwetok Apr 2016 #184
SHRED Apr 2016 #38
eniwetok Apr 2016 #89
Glassunion Apr 2016 #39
underahedgerow Apr 2016 #74
Skink Apr 2016 #40
rogerashton Apr 2016 #41
hfojvt Apr 2016 #43
Rex Apr 2016 #46
hfojvt Apr 2016 #53
tkmorris Apr 2016 #64
philosslayer Apr 2016 #96
LanternWaste Apr 2016 #71
Rex Apr 2016 #44
Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #69
LanternWaste Apr 2016 #73
Chan790 Apr 2016 #128
eniwetok Apr 2016 #187
HughBeaumont Apr 2016 #47
B Calm Apr 2016 #49
sakabatou Apr 2016 #50
On the Road Apr 2016 #55
Chan790 Apr 2016 #130
On the Road Apr 2016 #139
Chan790 Apr 2016 #157
Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #56
Chan790 Apr 2016 #131
MattP Apr 2016 #59
Adrahil Apr 2016 #60
Chan790 Apr 2016 #132
Adrahil Apr 2016 #141
Chan790 Apr 2016 #158
Adrahil Apr 2016 #162
Chan790 Apr 2016 #168
Adrahil Apr 2016 #183
Sunlei Apr 2016 #62
taught_me_patience Apr 2016 #66
eniwetok Apr 2016 #195
corbettkroehler Apr 2016 #68
eniwetok Apr 2016 #100
islandmkl Apr 2016 #76
Trajan Apr 2016 #78
Mary Mac Apr 2016 #81
Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #87
Herman4747 Apr 2016 #82
Capt. Obvious Apr 2016 #83
B Calm Apr 2016 #92
cheapdate Apr 2016 #84
WhiteTara Apr 2016 #86
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2016 #90
La Lioness Priyanka Apr 2016 #93
Scootaloo Apr 2016 #102
tenderfoot Apr 2016 #103
Visionary Apr 2016 #110
elehhhhna Apr 2016 #111
liberal_at_heart Apr 2016 #112
Gormy Cuss Apr 2016 #113
muriel_volestrangler Apr 2016 #114
nichomachus Apr 2016 #116
Melurkyoulongtime Apr 2016 #240
Populist_Prole Apr 2016 #243
eniwetok Apr 2016 #242
Melurkyoulongtime Apr 2016 #244
Solly Mack Apr 2016 #117
LostOne4Ever Apr 2016 #120
Kalidurga Apr 2016 #129
Chan790 Apr 2016 #133
peabody Apr 2016 #143
B Calm Apr 2016 #149
Kalidurga Apr 2016 #153
hobbit709 Apr 2016 #140
Zorra Apr 2016 #142
Odin2005 Apr 2016 #144
Logical Apr 2016 #146
CreekDog Apr 2016 #148
Warpy Apr 2016 #152
eniwetok Apr 2016 #214
Warpy Apr 2016 #219
eniwetok Apr 2016 #225
1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #155
LiberalElite Apr 2016 #156
dana_b Apr 2016 #170
karadax Apr 2016 #171
tenderfoot Apr 2016 #172
Land Shark Apr 2016 #176
TexasBushwhacker Apr 2016 #178
bkkyosemite Apr 2016 #179
Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #197
TeamPooka Apr 2016 #186
eniwetok Apr 2016 #193
lunasun Apr 2016 #234
eniwetok Apr 2016 #239
GreenEyedLefty Apr 2016 #190
Pakhet Apr 2016 #191
GreenEyedLefty Apr 2016 #192
eniwetok Apr 2016 #194
GreenEyedLefty Apr 2016 #200
eniwetok Apr 2016 #202
MrMickeysMom Apr 2016 #196
polly7 Apr 2016 #198
SoLeftIAmRight Apr 2016 #201
eniwetok Apr 2016 #203
SoLeftIAmRight Apr 2016 #208
eniwetok Apr 2016 #211
SoLeftIAmRight Apr 2016 #223
noamnety Apr 2016 #204
eniwetok Apr 2016 #213
Hiraeth Apr 2016 #205
eniwetok Apr 2016 #215
TheDormouse Apr 2016 #212
eniwetok Apr 2016 #217
TheDormouse Apr 2016 #218
eniwetok Apr 2016 #231
TheDormouse Apr 2016 #220
eniwetok Apr 2016 #233
lunasun Apr 2016 #235
KamaAina Apr 2016 #216
eniwetok Apr 2016 #222
mac56 Apr 2016 #236

Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:15 AM

1. You are aware that this is the "Democratic" Underground site and not a Republican site right?

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to revbones (Reply #1)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:18 AM

5. On fiscal/economic matters, distinguishing between the two ain't easy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to merrily (Reply #5)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:00 PM

77. Unfortunately.....

true.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to revbones (Reply #1)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:28 AM

14. How does advocating for a return to the highest MW....

How does advocating for a return to the highest MW we've ever had... now $7300 more a year, make me a GOPer?

My point is while it's easy to just decree $15... it's not a free lunch as some seem to believe.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #14)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:49 AM

25. "free lunch" does not mean what you think it means

Paying someone a living wage in exchange for production isn't a "free lunch", it's actually the exact opposite of a "free lunch". What a "free lunch" entails is allowing employers pay employees so little that the government has to subsidize their existence.

So while advocating for predatory employment compensation practices doesn't necessarily make you a GOPer, it's certainly a great start.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Major Nikon (Reply #25)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:09 PM

80. who's advocating predatory employment???


We're not going to get rid of supply and demand as a force in wages... short of moving to a guaranteed national income. But we can set the boundaries in which those forces operate with a MW and reversing free trade.

Getting back to the HIGHEST level the MW has ever been is hardly advocating for predatory employment. What Reagan did to the MW is advocating predatory employment when the MW was left to depreciate down to $6.38 inflation adjusted to $2015 dollars.

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/minimum-wage-since-1938/

The federal MW is simply THE FLOOR for the national wage. No one said it could not go higher in states or cities... or that it can't increase in real terms. What I object to is the idea that we can wave a magic wand and there won't be any disruptions to the economy if we go to $15... 208% ABOVE the current MW and 37% higher than the MW has EVER been.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #80)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:40 PM

95. I'm pretty sure you are

For one thing, paying someone the minimum wage is and always has been predatory. The only thing the minimum wage does is make it less so. So arguing that the least predatory minimum wage the US has ever had isn't still predatory is pretty silly. The US government subsidizes the poor at levels well above poverty thresholds, and even a $15 minimum wage doesn't raise many of them out of that.

The other obvious dog whistle you are blowing is the unsupported claim that "a national MW $15 would cause enormous disruptions". The states that have already raised their minimum wage have experienced more economic growth and employment than those who haven't. So while it may be true that there is a mandatory minimum wage at which economic growth and employment will experience diminishing returns, claiming an arbitrary $15 point at which "enormous disruptions" happen as factual with zero basis in fact to support such an assertion is quite telling.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Major Nikon (Reply #95)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 02:55 PM

115. if you can't make a point without gross distortions...

If you can't make a point without gross distortions... you really haven't made a point. Have you?

There is NO STATE according to

http://www.epi.org/minimum-wage-tracker/#/min_wage/Washington%20D.C.

that today has a MW higher than $10.50... and that's not even a state, it's DC.

I LIVE in MA which now is the highest MW state, tied with CA. This is still BELOW that $11ish that represents the inflation adjusted 1968 MW.

So to claim that states that have raised the MW are doing better than those that have not... as an argument that my call for at least $11 is in favor of predatory employment is laughable. I await your condemnation of all those blue states you just touted as encouraging predatory employment. But I suspect you'll give them a pass.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #115)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 03:34 PM

121. "Gross distortions" You mean like your strawman nonsense?

I'm sure you must think your bullshit isn't completely transparent, but I can assure you it isn't. It's not as if you are the first person who has logged onto DU and in less than a week starts to carry the Heritage Foundation's water.

Just like last time I will use your exact quotes, but just so you can't employ obvious half-fast obfuscation, I will keep it much simpler.

"...as a national MW $15 would cause enormous disruptions"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7730765

Now I'm sure you had no problem finding proof of this on Heritage.org, but this side of Bizzaro World, not so much.

So you can certainly claim that states raising the minimum wage to a lower level is exactly like forecasting financial armageddon if the minimum wage is raised to $15, but that level of bullshit just isn't going to fly here like it no doubt does in your usual haunts.

Just sayin'

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Major Nikon (Reply #121)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 05:00 PM

136. I suspect I'm far to the left of you

So it seems ALL of your arguments to date are to accuse me of being a right winger and evading real rebuttals while rushing to find some new attack.

I await your personal attacks against all who agree with me.

I think this discussion has gone as far as it can.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #136)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 06:50 PM

147. You aren't fooling anyone

I just posted your own assertion verbatim and you're predictably running away from it again.

Nobody here is buying what you are selling.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Major Nikon (Reply #147)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:01 PM

173. sorry

YOU are the one who responded to my OP with the accusation that

So while advocating for predatory employment compensation practices doesn't necessarily make you a GOPer, it's certainly a great start.
So let's see YOU back that up.

So if advocating for a national MW of at least $11... 38% ABOVE the current NW... and still BELOW what Obama has proposed.... is "advocating for predatory employment compensation practices" then I await your condemnation of Obama and all the other people on this board who think $15 is inappropriate as the BASE of the national wage. Oh... you seem to believe that DU is unanimous for your position.

$15 is fine for those area that can afford it. But we're talking about a minimum for the ENTIRE NATION. Feel free to wave your magic wand. And since it's other people's money why not go for $25.

Talk is cheap... so thanks for your 2c.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #173)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:11 PM

174. You tend to lose a lot of ground arguing that you don't have GOP sympathys...

When you start throwing around their free lunch ideaology about minimum wage increases.

And then go and double down on it with a Foxian 'well, why not raise it to *insert much higher number here*!'

Perhaps he was incorrect in his comments, but your usage of RW arguments and Fox commentary does nothing to disprove him.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lancero (Reply #174)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:27 PM

177. there are plenty of "free lunch" ideologies...

Sorry... my common sense just doesn't let me go along with "free lunch" promises... coming from the left or right.

From the right.. tax cuts... especially for the rich, are a free lunch because IN THEORY they create a wondrous expansion of the economy which everyone benefits from... and this will create a revenue boom.

Ya right. Individual income tax returns in constant dollars never exceeded Clinton's last year in ANY of Bush's 8 years.

And so when I hear that raising the MW to 38% higher than it's ever been... 208% higher than it's now... will cause no problems because business owners will simply make it all back with more business... it sounds like economic perpetual motion: ie a free lunch.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #80)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 10:07 AM

227. You? by posting this and your replies to comments on the post imo

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #14)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:53 AM

31. Who, specifically?

"it's not a free lunch as some seem to believe..."

Who, specifically?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LanternWaste (Reply #31)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:05 PM

42. those who wave a magic wand

Who thinks it's a free lunch? Those who think they can wave a magic wand and there will be no disruptions to the economy. I've heard the free lunch arguments... that a business can pay the $15 and they'll just get more business to make up for it. It reminds me of the Orwellian Right's free lunch arguments for irresponsible tax cuts.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #42)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:16 PM

85. So... little more than an un-named, unknown, unspecified group of people.

So... little more than an un-named, unknown, unspecified group of people you are unable to objectively cite-- most likely because your allegation is just that-- an allegation used to supply an absurd premise no one else will offer that you can argue against.

Clever. Not accurate at all, but clever. It reminds me of the the Bugs Bunny half-wits irresponsibly making things up.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LanternWaste (Reply #85)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:34 PM

91. the burden of proof isn't on me

I'm advocating for a MW that historically we KNOW did not cause unemployment nor inflation. But let's not forget that in 1968 we had a protectionist economy.

The burden of proof is on those who want to go to $15 nationally... 38% ABOVE the highest the MW has ever been... and 207% above what it is today.

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/minimum-wage-since-1938/

The idea that $15 can be declared a "living wage" for a big city is one thing. It's quite another to say that's a living wage for all parts of the nation. So will $15 be excessive in a depressed or rural areas of other states? And just who's it a living wage for? A single person? An adult with a child? Two children?

$15 is an arbitrary number.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #14)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:30 PM

63. Take your "free lunch" commentary to Free Republic where it belongs.

 

/ignore list.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Maedhros (Reply #63)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 03:20 PM

119. +1000000

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Maedhros (Reply #63)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 04:49 PM

135. drive by

Another content-free drive by attack... no, make that a hit and run since you're evading any rebuttal.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Maedhros (Reply #63)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 10:05 AM

226. Wow! Fox talking points on DU

This will not end well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to yuiyoshida (Reply #226)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 12:28 PM

238. Really? Fox Is Advocating for a the HIGHEST the MW has ever been?

Really?

I think the bigger problem here is some are blinded by the concept of a "living wage"... it's one of those terms that contains it's own argument... because anything BELOW $15 automatically becomes a "non-living" wage. But that $15 an hour movement began in BIG CITIES. So while it might be a living wage there... it's a massive windfall for that kid in East Bumcake who lives at home. Do you really think anyone's going to pay him $31k a year to sweep a floor or clean toilets?

We're talking about the NATIONAL MW... and it has to make sense everywhere. If states or cities want to go higher... fine.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to revbones (Reply #1)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:18 PM

54. President Obama advocates a $10.10 minimum wage. Is he not a Democrat? (nt)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #54)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:43 PM

97. here I am advocating for $11 and I'm called a GOPer

Here I am advocating for $11 as a national minimum and to let cities and states raise it to whatever they want... and I'm called a GOPer?

Go figure.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #54)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 10:11 AM

228. Is he not a Democrat?

 

One who admires Reagan!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to revbones (Reply #1)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 02:16 PM

104. Reading his Journal, I'm thinking this one may be skirting MIRT

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to revbones (Reply #1)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 07:31 PM

154. This isn't Bernie Underground, much as you want it to be.

And Democrats don't uniformly support every one of Bernie's proposals.

The progressive economist whose research first proved that raising minimum wage doesn't cause employers to shed jobs says that is true only if the amount isn't raised too high. And he says that optimal amount -- nationally -- would be $12. States and cities should be free to raise it to $15 or even higher, but the research supports only a raise to $12 nationally.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pnwmom (Reply #154)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 08:46 PM

159. I'm a Bernie person... but I don't have to accept every one of his ideas

And he doesn't accept all of mine. I'm for finally making the US into a true democratic system... and I know Bernie won't touch the topic.

Parties, or perhaps wings of parties, develop narratives to in response to the groups that make up the coalition. Narratives change all the time. Once liberal Dems were against the Bush tax cuts because they increased debt and that threatened Social Security if that debt made SS payback more difficult. But then most liberal Dems embraced Obama's position when he wanted to keep most of those irresponsible tax cuts... even if we then were trillions more in debt. People like Thom Hartman were once for drying up jobs so illegal immigrants would pack up and go home. He said they drove down wages for US workers, then did a 180 when Obama pushed for comprehensive immigration reform. US labor tended to also be against immigration reform... and they did a 180.

Narratives come and go.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #159)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 08:54 PM

160. You might already be familiar with this link, but just in case:

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pnwmom (Reply #154)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 09:40 PM

165. No but they typically don't make posts justifying

 

lower minimum wages...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to revbones (Reply #165)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 09:49 PM

166. 32 progressive Senators and President Obama and his council of Economic Advisers

support a $12 minimum wage, the level that the research shows wouldn't cause employers to shed jobs.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pnwmom (Reply #166)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 09:50 PM

167. Oh I'm sorry, I didn't see 12 mentioned in the OP.

 

Because it wasn't.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to revbones (Reply #167)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:18 PM

175. I have no problem going higher

I have no problem going higher than $11... I only use that number because it WAS the highest historical minimum we've ever had and BEA and BLS numbers show it caused no unemployment nor inflation.

But the last time we continually raised the MW's real purchasing power was between 1950 and 1968 we had a protectionist and unionized economy. We need to reestablish that so corporations can't bolt the US market to escape MW laws.

I also worry about shocking the economy that's grown addicted to a depreciating MW. If the MW had simply been adjusted to inflation all these years and the MW increased in real value as it did from 1950 to 1968... it might have been at $12-14 by now. Employers would have adjusted to that. Instead they've adjusted to stealing more and more of a worker's wages. This dynamic can't be negated with the wave of a magic wand. But if magic wands are your thing... feel free to wave it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pnwmom (Reply #166)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 10:14 AM

229. wouldn't cause employers to shed jobs.

 

There would be no need to "shed jobs" at $15. I'm not buying into the poor put upon employers of minimum wage jobs.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pnwmom (Reply #154)

Sun Apr 3, 2016, 02:57 PM

207. Wow. Arguing for a lower minimum wage

 

How very New Democrat of you.

First out isn't today that it would go into effect, it would be phased in over time.

Second, there is the distinct probability that it would get negotiated down so why start from a less than ideal bargaining position?

Thirdly, you ignore productivity gains completely by arguing for lower than 15

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to revbones (Reply #1)

Sun Apr 3, 2016, 02:19 PM

206. You are aware that there are only two mainstream parties, but far more than two political viewpoints

Therefore you should expect people in your party to have different viewpoints than yours. And the original poster is calling for a 10.95 minimum wage, something very few Republicans are doing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Shoulders of Giants (Reply #206)

Sun Apr 3, 2016, 11:10 PM

209. group think

I do find it rather shocking how many here just assume that if someone doesn't support every proposal that some liberal Dem comes up with... that they must be GOP shills.

Party narratives and positions change. Political partisans tend to mold their opinions to the current cause. And if they do a 180 a few years down the road... that old position gets swept under the rug. For example liberal Dems tended to be against the irresponsible Bush tax cuts back in 2000. They threatened debt paydown and could threaten Social Security.

Come 2011ish... they supported Obama's plan to keep most of those Bush tax cuts... but decided the higher tax on the rich was perfectly fine. Gone was all thought of debt paydown... and many began to believe that debt was fine.

I'm just one who places principle before party.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:15 AM

2. Thanks Hillary

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:15 AM

3. This should be good...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:17 AM

4. I accept your apology.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:21 AM

6. gee whiz...really?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:21 AM

7. Robots

are coming to a McDonalds near you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to greymattermom (Reply #7)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 07:20 PM

151. They are coming regardless of wage increases.

Eventually, they will take so many jobs that a guaranteed minimum income will be necessary.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:22 AM

8. I have news for you Wallmart hires not just in large cities

A $15 MW will force Wallmart to pay their works a living wage and stop the subitys the they are getting right now by having government pickup the slack by providing the Walmart workers with food stamps.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to awake (Reply #8)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:28 PM

61. then why not $20?

Sure... I think it's insane that we have a system where we subsidize MW workers with benefits instead of them letting them earn more... and if we went back to $10.90ish that would mean $7300 more a year. That's not exactly peanuts. To move back to $10.90 means it will cover everyone from $7.25 to $10.90... and that alone will cover 10s of millions of workers.

We know the high MW of 1968 didn't cause disruptions to the economy even if was gradually going up in real value since about 1950. But that economy was different then. We had higher taxes on the rich. We've foolishly allowed the economy to become addicted to a depreciating MW and we foolishly sabotaged our industrial base with free trade. This is an escape hatch for US companies that needs to be closed... a and we need to putt tariffs back on imported goods. When we sabotaged our economy's ability to absorb those who will lose their jobs if the MW is too high.

My point is raising the MW even back to its 1968 value will require undoing much of the neolib insanity that has devastated our economy the past 35 years. To try and go further to $15... essentially doubling the current MW, isn't a free lunch as some seem to think it is.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #61)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:22 PM

88. MW was not a livable wage in 1968 thats why we need $15 which is a "Livable Wage"

As for tariffs what most countries have done is a "goods and services Tax" or VAT (Value added Tax) by doing that they have made products produced in their country more attractive since the tax charged the manufacture is refunded to them, this is how most countries can say they are conducting free trade while at the same time making foreign manufactured goods cost more with out using "tariffs".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to awake (Reply #88)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:48 PM

98. living wage for whom?

So are you advocating a "living wage" to cover ALL possibilities? So if $15 isn't enough for an adult with 2 kids living in a big city are you suggesting the entire nation should then go to $16? $18? $20 even for some teen living at home in some rural backwater?


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #98)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:55 PM

99. "rural backwater" ? showing a bit of an attitude arn't we there

I see no problem with an across the board $15 MW if you do not then you are more than free to for a Republican or a Third way Democrat (which some call "Republican light" for myself I will back the FDR Demarcate.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to awake (Reply #99)

Sun Apr 3, 2016, 11:18 PM

210. So what was FDR's Minumum Wage?

According to http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm

The MW in 1938 was 25c an hour.

According to http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=.25&year1=1938&year2=2016 that MW today would be a pathetic $4.20 an hour.

And you're pretending that my call for going back to the HIGHEST MW we've ever had is somehow because I'm GOP lite?

Are there any fair-minded liberal Dems out there?


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #98)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 05:24 PM

137. oh you're a righty

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rockfordfile (Reply #137)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 09:11 PM

163. best ya got?

Really... the best argument ya got is to accuse me of being a right winger?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #61)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 12:11 PM

237. seriously?

so you are advocating cutting benefits to those making minimum wage? Sure sounds it. Who loses in that case?

I find it hard to believe that in the long run, the rest of us won't have to indirectly subsidize this - businesses will be forced to raise their prices to pay the $15/hr workers. The extra $7 an hour doesn't just come from nowhere. If a business is running a few percent gross margin (I work for a huge corporation whose gross is 3.99%) and they have a lot of employees, you may rest assured they will not altruistically donate the difference. Someone pays.

Based on my last few fast-food experiences, $30,000 annually for what they do is a freakin' joke. It fit the old joke better: "Minimum wage means you deserve, and we would pay you, even less if we could... but it's illegal."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:22 AM

9. apology not accepted because you a dead wrong.

You have no proof of what you speak.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Cobalt Violet (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:37 AM

17. dead wrong about what?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #17)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:43 AM

20. But you pass

 

On the fact that inflation does not include groceries or energy, gas was .35 cents and a loaf of bread was maybe 25 to 50 cents ... these are the things that we all need and cannot skimp on so gas is 10 times as much no and that is the lowest it has been in a long time. Best take this idea someplace that might believe it.. not gonna happen here

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Old Codger (Reply #20)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:55 AM

33. We don't all need gas

some people walk, bike or ride the bus. I've been biking or walking to work for most of the last 14 years, even when I did own a car. And except for a three year period when I lived 12 miles from my job I lived most of the 15 years before that without a car too.

And it depends on the year. My 1979 yearbook shows a gas price of 82 cents. That's $2.35 according to the inflation calculator even from 1980. We've been less than that for much of the last year. So gas was higher at some points in the past too.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hfojvt (Reply #33)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:13 PM

52. My MY My

 

Aren't you "special" the fact, if you take time to look" is that this is a pretty fucking large country and a whole lot of us do not live within walking or bike riding distance of anything that resembles a work place.. Just because you don't need gas is not any sort of indication that a goodly portion of the rest of the country doesn't...so sit on you high horse and enjoy your "specialness"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Old Codger (Reply #52)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:25 PM

58. no, actually I am not special

that is my point.

If a non-special person like me CAN do it, then others should be able to as well. In fact, many others do. I see people walking all the time in this town, and there are a number of bicycles too.

Many, many people CHOOSE to not do it, because a two mile walk is a lot more work, and more annoying, than a two mile car ride. And once they plan their life around the car, they forget that it WAS a choice they made.

You didn't say anything about the high gas prices of the past.

Nice tone though. Are you trying to convince me that you are a nice and compassionate person?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hfojvt (Reply #58)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 02:35 PM

109. The town where I lived in the 1968 time period was (all one way figures) 15 miles to a

pharmacy; 35 miles to shopping area; 35 miles to work; 35 miles to a library; 20 miles to get a hair cut; 15 miles to a doctor. All our town had was 2 grocery stores and 2 gas stations.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hfojvt (Reply #58)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 03:57 PM

123. How about the

 

Millions of us who live out in the rural areas? Not everyone can or wants to live in a town,city,metropolis ...Some of us like the country, some of us cannot afford to rent or buy in a city.. all of you that do more power to ya...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Old Codger (Reply #20)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:13 PM

51. They are confused and thought Google would be enough to convince a few here.

 

I cannot understand why a libertarian would want to post here, I guess to get their ass kicked, figuratively, daily by a bunch of progressives.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Rex (Reply #51)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:09 PM

79. The overuse and misuse of labels has left many of them effectively meaningless.

Supporting the federal minimum wage law, as the OP does, pretty much rules out "libertarian".

Try a different label. "Libertarian" is for someone who opposes all federal workplace and wage and hour laws, up to and including child labor laws.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Rex (Reply #51)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 04:08 PM

125. They don't even

 

Bother to look into the truth, they have some preconceived ideas that they picked up at whatever republican board they most recently visited and bring the garbage here... If they looked up almost any major business such as Costco who pays their employees a living wage and constantly out preforms almost every cut-rate like wally world and target they might finally see the light and determine that when the people make money so do the big corporations... rather than trickle down we get trickle up, if the "masses" have money they spend it and the economy moves along nicely and the money ends up in the wealthy peoples pockets anyway it just takes a little longer and ends up keeping the lower 99% a lot happier..Since it seems like they are too stupid to be able to figure this out we all get hurt...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Rex (Reply #51)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 10:31 AM

232. masochistic libertarians ...its a thing with them... it = freedom to serve


Although below is about contract work , why not move in to min. wage for a new "kick"?
https://lareviewofbooks.org/essay/50-shades-of-libertarian-love/

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Old Codger (Reply #20)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 03:45 PM

122. Health care costs weren't sky high either. Could actually afford medical treatment.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #17)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:56 AM

34. This...

"$15 may be fine in urban areas but as a national MW $15 would cause enormous disruptions... "

This seems to be the point of your post, yet aside from making the claim you offer no justification for it whatsoever.

What do you imagine would happen if the MW were raised nationally to $15? What exactly do you mean by "enormous disruptions"? Be specific. Why do you think this would happen? Again, be specific. Cite relevant precedents.

Making an argument consists of more than simply stating an opinion. By itself it is completely unconvincing. One could just as easily say (and there are those that do!) "Raising taxes on the upper class will have a depressive effect on the economy, resulting in a loss of jobs and a decrease in overall tax receipts". Of course, saying it doesn't make it true. Republicans will say any damn fool thing, truth be damned.

So, make your case. The ball is in your court.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tkmorris (Reply #34)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:53 PM

72. ball's not in my court

I'm advocating for a MW that historically we KNOW did not cause unemployment nor inflation. The burden of proof is on those who want to go to $15... 38% ABOVE the highest the MW has ever been... and 207% above what it is today.

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/minimum-wage-since-1938/

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #17)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 02:20 PM

105. you're really going to compare 1968 to 2016?

it's almost like you have never evolved......oh wait

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Skittles (Reply #105)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 10:18 AM

230. oh my!



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to yuiyoshida (Reply #230)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 04:53 PM

241. HAR, OMG yuiyoshida

I've loved George since I first saw him on the original Star Trek

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:23 AM

10. Should be $30 for everybody, plus guaranteed jobs for anybody that wants one.

There is plenty that needs doing, it's just not proifitable. That's what government is for.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bemildred (Reply #10)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:27 AM

13. And unicorns!

 

Don't forget the unicorns.

Why only $30 an hour? Why not $50?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to EL34x4 (Reply #13)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:31 AM

15. I'll take $40, with a pony unicorn.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to EL34x4 (Reply #13)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:31 AM

16. Indeed, why not? Why be cheap? It's not like we don't have the money.

We're the richest nation on the planet. We should make better use of that wealth, distribute it a lot better than we do now.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to EL34x4 (Reply #13)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:53 AM

32. Why not $3.15?

Why not $3.15?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to bemildred (Reply #10)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:42 AM

19. When automation starts eating into white collar jobs, this proposal will gain more traction. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to killbotfactory (Reply #19)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:46 AM

21. Yes. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bemildred (Reply #10)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 02:25 PM

107. Except you made the argument that we can't

Because terrible things would happen if we did. The seas would rise, the skies would crack, a plague of snakes, whatever. There is no reason whatsoever to take such a claim seriously, especially since you have offed exactly nothing in support of this view.

There is no history to draw upon in this country to directly analyze the effects of a $15 MW, but what we do have suggests rather clearly that whatever level of MW might begin to have a chilling effect on jobs, we have yet to reach it. We do however have data from other countries which suggests that $15 per hour is not the economy killer you seem to think it is.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tkmorris (Reply #107)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 04:02 PM

124. That wasn't me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bemildred (Reply #10)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 10:35 PM

169. I make $25/hr and I'm basically rich

 

I live with my cousin and pay $450 rent per month, which I have in half a week. Overtime gets me another 10 hours, and I get weekends off. Any you're telling me some kid should make more than that? If a punk 16 year old gets $30, then I want $50.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Reter (Reply #169)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:53 PM

180. Good, I like it. Plenty of money for everybody. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Reter (Reply #169)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:58 PM

182. You do realize that whatever the MW is,

the wages for skilled labor will increase above that, right? nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:23 AM

11. Yep. It's always smart to start negotiations with a compromise. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:26 AM

12. April Fool!!!!

We aren't just trying to account for inflation. We also aren't just trying to get minimum wage workers more money. We are trying to lift wages across the board to change the game, narrow the ever-widening inequality gap.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:39 AM

18. Large companies like wal mart and McDonald's need to be required to pay a $15 min wage

 

I understand that some smaller local businesses have much lower profits and owners who are only upper middle class and I might only apply a $12 minimum wage to them. But I say boo hoo if a $15 min wage forces McDonald's to cut its CEOs salary.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flyingbird5066 (Reply #18)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:11 PM

45. The no skill labor provided...

 

... Doesn't seem to be worth it to employers.

$15 is the low end of skilled labor.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flyingbird5066 (Reply #18)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:19 PM

57. or fire a few employees

 

I would imagine cashiers can be replaced, and automate a bit more in the back.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flyingbird5066 (Reply #18)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 04:12 PM

126. This proposal doesn't work.

 

Just like the "compromise" proposal to have different minimum wages in different parts of the nation don't work... it just creates incentives to skirt the law.

It has to be one wage, everywhere, for all employers. Unconditionally.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:47 AM

22. Ronald Reagan couldn't have put it any better.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #22)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:45 PM

67. don't be silly

Under Reagan the MW was allowed to depreciate for NINE YEARS... from an inflation adjusted value of $8.71 down to $6.38

http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/minimum-wage-since-1938/

How is calling for the MW to go back up to the highest MW we ever had something Reagan would support? Of course states and cities could go higher.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:48 AM

23. how about a minimum guaranteed income?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ish of the hammer (Reply #23)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:57 PM

75. this is something we need to look into

In an economy that's becoming increasingly automated... how many workers will we need?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:48 AM

24. Citing "enormous disruptions" that are undocumented and totally lacking in the historical record

makes this argument entirely ridiculous. Try again.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Kip Humphrey (Reply #24)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:52 PM

70. I don't believe you are the first to point that out

 

but sadly, none of you has received a reply. How odd.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Kip Humphrey (Reply #24)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 02:07 PM

101. Sorry... the $15 MW is without a historical record


I'm advocating for a MW that historically we KNOW did not cause unemployment nor inflation. But let's not forget that in 1968 we had a protectionist economy. If we want to start raising the MW above the historic high we need to reconfigure the economy to end free trade and re-industrialize america.

The burden of proof is on those who want to go to $15 nationally... 38% ABOVE the highest the MW has ever been... and 207% above what it is today.

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/minimum-wage-since-1938/

The idea that $15 can be declared a "living wage" for a big city is one thing. It's quite another to say that's a living wage for all parts of the nation. So will $15 be excessive in a depressed or rural areas of other states? And just who's it a living wage for? A single person? An adult with a child? Two children? Does the national MW go up for EVERYONE just because it's not a living wage for an adult with 2 kids living in a big city?

$15 is an arbitrary number.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #101)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 06:34 PM

145. Minimum Wage in Australia is US$21/hr

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Odin2005 (Reply #145)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 09:09 PM

161. I was speaking of the MW in the US.

Not Australia. I provided the documentation.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Odin2005 (Reply #145)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 09:24 PM

164. australian mimimum wage is $17.29 or $13.14 US

Your source is?

From the horse's mouth...

What is the current national minimum wage?
The national minimum wage is currently $17.29 per hour or $656.90 per 38 hour week (before tax).


https://www.fairwork.gov.au/ArticleDocuments/723/Minimum-wages.pdf.aspx

and with the exchange rate... the Australian dollar today is worth about .76c US

http://www.x-rates.com/calculator/?from=AUD&to=USD&amount=1

$17.29
0.76
--------------------------
$13.1404 = US

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)


Response to gsb54 (Reply #26)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 04:06 PM

221. Pretty much the same here, 1960s-70s

One income family, stay at home mom, 4 kids, nice house in suburbs, boat, vacations, etc

You didn't mention college tuition, but my dad paid them from his salary and kids' part-time summer jobs. No loans necessary.

Sadly, today's generations have never experienced a lifestyle like this and don't realize it's not impossible as they currently believe.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Doremus (Reply #221)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 08:24 AM

224. Yes, college tuition as well

 

The rule in our home was, parents would pay for 1/2 of tuition fees matching the 1/2 each kid would contribute. Tuition at a state college was affordable, $3000/yr. No loans.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:50 AM

27. Oh please DO go on...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:51 AM

28. Most MW workers don't work 40 hours a week.

So right there, the numbers for what this will cost to employers is wrong.

$15 is being stepped in in CA, which people are upset about, since the COL here already could bear a higher wage, but it will give time for business to adjust.

People in my area are paying so much in rent that it is affecting small business owners. A higher wage would actually help this, rather than hurt them.

The GDP of this entire country has been reduced because of high rent areas like urban CA and NYC.

That money is being sucked away to housing costs and not being circulated in the economy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:52 AM

29. Ahh Bullcheese. It worked just fine in the 60s, and would be higher today if inflation indexed.

Why are you opposed to the best economic stimulus we have?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to L. Coyote (Reply #29)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 03:19 PM

118. That $10.95 IS indexed to inflation...

AND that $10.95 is higher than ANY state's current MW today.... and higher than what Obama has proposed.

I think some are blinded by the concept of a "living wage" and think a single number can be imposed on the entire economy regardless of local/regional circumstances... or of the worker's situation. So if a worker with 2 kids living in a big city can't get by with $15... then what? If a small business in a depressed area can't pay $15 and fires a worker or two... then what?

There are other ideas for economic stimulus... end free trade to bring back US jobs... and restructure Wall St so it invests in productive work instead of trying to make money out of thin air with pointless speculation.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:52 AM

30. 1) you are not sorry 2) you have no idea what you are talking about.

Minimum Wage Would Be $21.72 If It Kept Pace With Increases In Productivity: Study

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/13/minimum-wage-productivity_n_2680639.html

The minimum wage should have reached $21.72 an hour in 2012 if it kept up with increases in worker productivity, according to a March study by the Center for Economic and Policy Research. While advancements in technology have increased the amount of goods and services that can be produced in a set amount of time, wages have remained relatively flat, the study points out.

Even if the minimum wage kept up with inflation since it peaked in real value in the late 1960s, low-wage workers should be earning a minimum of $10.52 an hour, according to the study.

Between the end of World War II and the late 1960s, productivity and wages grew steadily. Since the minimum wage peaked in 1968, increases in productivity have outpaced the minimum wage growth.

The current minimum wage stands at $7.25 an hour. In 2011, more than 66 percent of Americans surveyed by the Public Religion Research Institute supported raising this figure to $10.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Reply #30)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:40 PM

94. You are referencing productivity across the board

What has been the productivity gain in the jobs which minimum wage workers do?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 1939 (Reply #94)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 02:21 PM

106. first, are you defending the idea that there shouldn't be a living wage? nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Reply #106)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 07:15 PM

150. We aren't discussing living wage.

We are talking about the equitable distribution of productivity gains.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 1939 (Reply #150)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 12:43 PM

185. Interesting subthread.

You seem to be suggesting that the benefits of productivity gains should not be broadly distributed. I think there are compelling (moral and utilitarian) arguments that they should be - e.g., without division of labor "productivity across the board" would be substantially lower. Care to defend your position?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PETRUS (Reply #185)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 03:03 PM

188. Sure, compare

Lawn mowing and landscaping--Little productivity gains since the invention of the power mower, power edger, and power blower.

Gas stations--Major productivity gains with just one person in the convenience store watching 8-12 pumps versus half a dozen pump jockeys in the old days.

How do we allocate this? The poor guy with the landscape company isn't seeing the productivity gains in his profit margin, but you want to raise the wages of his helpers because of productivity gains elsewhere in the economy. Meanwhile the owner of the gas station has cut his payroll 75-85% and can afford to give the guy behind the window a little extra because he doesn't have to pay the pump jockeys.
.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 1939 (Reply #188)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 07:56 PM

199. I gather you don't understand the implications of my division of labor remark.

The reason someone can work full time in a sector experiencing productivity gains is because they don't have to take care of all of life's necessities themselves. Their increased productivity is made possible by others performing tasks that they would have to do themselves if they were alone in the world. "How do we allocate this?" is entirely a political decision. One needn't wonder what more egalitarian economic arrangements look like. Examples are available: the US in the relatively recent past, and much of Western Europe today.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:56 AM

35. That doesn't make any sense atoll.

n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:57 AM

36. First of all, it is not $15 NOW

It is $15 in a few years time. What will the inflation rate be then? Also, back in 1960 things were a little different. Believe it or not there were people who had no phones at all. I know that in my area, we still had party lines. A party line for those who do not know, was when more than one person had access to a phone line, you sometimes had to wait until that person was off the phone before you could use it and in some cases, you had no idea who the other parties were on the phone. And, yes, you could listen in on phone conversations. In rural areas you still had switchboard operators, who would connect you to the person you wanted to call. You would only pick up the phone when your ring signal had rung. Btw, this is why people still wait for a phone to ring 3 or 4 times before they pick up, it was to recognize if it was your ring signal. Now, every person basically HAS to have a phone for work and you have to be available at all times to answer it.

Back in the 1960's, where you worked was close to home. Believe it or not, a lot of people still didn't have cars and certainly not more than one car per family. There were also a lot more jobs. Your local paper would have an entire section of the newspaper devoted to job listings and it would run 6 to 10 pages on a Sunday with small typeset ads. Now, it is almost a requirement to have a car, and even if you don't you have to have a drivers license.

Yes, life has become more expensive and complicated than in the 1960's. We oldies probably could go on for days about what it was like back then.

Z

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to zalinda (Reply #36)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:39 PM

65. You also need a computer and some form of mobile phone to get a minimum wage job.

Most job applications are online, so they can be downloaded into a hiring app that looks for keywords and certain required fields (which now include requirements for mobile phone numbers, email addresses, listing of social media sites...) Most employers would prefer to deal with their employees via email or text.

A perspective employee also typically need a clean credit and criminal record, and some other way of differentiating yourself from the hundreds of other people who are looking for the same job. So some form of college, or a diploma rather than a GED, or a certification or current work experience, because the new employer certainly doesn't have time to train new employees for any amount of time anymore.

What is particularly annoying is that minimum wage jobs and around minimum wage jobs now include jobs that weren't minimum wage a decade prior...

Cashiers used to be a "work up to" above minimum wage job, while the minimum wage was stocker or bagger. I remember working as a part-time cashier/floor worker at a fabric store and making $1.25 more an hour than the floor workers who weren't allowed to ring up the customer in 1989. The position was considered a trusted position, because you handled money. That position is now considered minimum wage, and if there is a bump up in wage to be promoted to a trusted position, it's certainly not the equivalent of $3.00 more (due to inflation) as it was back in 1989.
A neighbor who just got her CVN license two years ago still makes just above minimum wage in CA - $10.25 an hour at a nursing home. A rent-mate in 1993 made $14 an hour working at a nursing home as a CVN one year after getting her license.

The importance of job positions have decreased, whether through supply and demand (excess of labor available to fill those positions driving down wages), or through a concerted effort to degrade the importance of those jobs as a menial position rather than a service position.
This is an insidious trend I've been railing against since the late 1990's, when I began noticing wages stagnate and more and more mid-level positions (especially in trusted or semi-skilled positions) sliding down to the "menial labor/unskilled labor" level of pay, benefits, and respect.
Funny thing - this trend has been observed since the term "Union Worker" became a dirty word.

Haele

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to haele (Reply #65)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 03:16 PM

189. Your last paragraph nails it

Supply and demand. Unions thrive when they can control the supply of labor. The problem comes when the supply becomes uncontrollable.

Look what has happened in the last 55 years:

1. Baby boom poured new workers into the economy.
2. Women left off being housewives and joined the workforce.
3. Legal immigration increased exponentially as the restrictions of the 1920s were relaxed.
4. Gigantic increases in illegal immigration.
5. Dramatic decrease in jobs available due to automation, computerization, and off-shoring

The most successful time for unions was the 1950s:

1. Only supply from the baby bust of the 1930s were entering the job market.
2. Very few married women were in the workforce.
3. Legal immigration was just a trickle.
4. Illegal immigration was made difficult enough that only young and vigorous young men could make it across and they could be quickly deported when they were no longer needed (i.e. at the end of the picking season).


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:58 AM

37. the minimum wage should be a living wage....

No one who works full time in the wealthiest nation on Earth should live in poverty. If that can be accomplished by $11/hour, then fine. If it take $20/hour then that's fine too. It need not be one single number for every workplace. The minimum wage should be a local living wage, whatever that takes.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mike_c (Reply #37)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:11 PM

48. that's NOT a national mimimum wage though

$15 an hour is not the same in Atchison, Kansas as it is in San Fransisco or Atlanta or Seattle or Phoenix.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hfojvt (Reply #48)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 02:28 PM

108. that's why I said the "minimum wage" should reflect the real cost of living...

...where ever the job is located. $15/hour might be adequate in Smallville, Kansas, but it isn't anywhere close to a living wage in San Francisco, CA. The federal minimum wage does not have to be a specific, single dollar amount as it is currently. It could be expressed as a percentage of the local median home price instead, for example.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mike_c (Reply #37)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 04:17 PM

127. No, local minimums are a non-starter just like 6 months ago when I believe it was you...

 

that suggested the same thing.

It just encourages states and municipalities to compete to resist local increases. It has to be one number...equal to the the minimum living wage in the most expensive part of the nation. Anything else is non-negotiable.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chan790 (Reply #127)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 04:46 PM

134. yup... the magic wand approach!!

Do you ever listen to yourself? I take it you've never run a business or had to manage programs when the state includes zero COLA for 2-3 years. You can just wave your magic wand and decree your will be done.

While you're at it why not tie the living wage to the person living in the most expensive area in the nation AND tie it to the number of dependents. After all... that $15 or $20 might not be enough. Everyone else.... living in low wage areas and single... it's all gravy for them. But then how is that gravy fair to the that person living in the most expensive area... and has dependents and is struggling? How is a struggling business responsible for a workers life choices?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #134)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 05:29 PM

138. Actually...

 

multimillionaire trust-fund kid who owns in-whole-or-part several businesses and sits on the boards of a couple dozen more family-owned ventures. In addition, hold elected office and have served as a political appointee to both local and state commissions. Further, board member and/or stakeholder of numerous charities.

I just happen to be a class-warrior against my own personal interests because I recognize that they're not the nation's best interests...and I'm a prissy, pampered fellow who likes living in a prosperous, stable society where I don't have to worry about the proles having an uprising and slitting my throat in my sleep.

Also, yes...I've run successful businesses (and no, we don't pay anybody one dime more than we have to...we are rich and got that way by being cheap after-all. It's not that we can't afford to...we pay what we have to and what the market necessitates. It leaves a lot of the profits of other people's labors in our pockets.) and I have managed programs when the state decided that there would be no cost-of-living increases for multiple consecutive years. In fact, working in NPOs and for the public interest...usually on poverty and social justice concerns is what I consider my primary occupation...not the myriad shit that fills my bank account.

Coincidentally, I've also read both Thomas Piketty's and Michael Hudson's latest economics books...boring as shit but ever so informative for identifying the arguments and efforts of those in my progressive midst working against the interests of the public.

Though, I do say, your proposal is a capital idea! Let us index the minimum wage to actual cost-of-living, including dependencies. May we, in time, do exactly that. For now, $15/hr. everywhere is a great start.

By the way, do I need a bill of lading to take possession of my property? I do believe I just owned your ass and would like it shipped so I can display it in my home library. I'm even going to have a nice alabaster plaque with gold informational-plates made to display it upon.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chan790 (Reply #138)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 10:08 AM

184. so wages should be linked to...

Though, I do say, your proposal is a capital idea! Let us index the minimum wage to actual cost-of-living, including dependencies. May we, in time, do exactly that. For now, $15/hr. everywhere is a great start.


So your idea of winning an argument is to propose the ridiculous? So you want to further delink equal work for equal pay we have with gender inequality... and instead make an employer pay for an employee's life choices? So in your utopia the pimpled face kid with no experience will make $15 an hour flipping burgers... and the mom with 3 kids will make... say $20-$25 for doing the same work? So the kid will make $31.5k and the mom will make $41.6-$52k?

BRILLIANT!

Yup, no employers would EVER discriminate against that mom with kids. They can just charge customers more... and that would NEVER put them at a competitive disadvantage to other burger joints.

Yup... gotta love these magic wand "solutions".


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:01 PM

38. Are you aware it's phased in?

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SHRED (Reply #38)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:24 PM

89. of course I'm aware

To go from $7.25 to $15 is a 208% increase. How many years will it take to be phased in? I've heard about 5. Show me when the MW was EVER doubled in that short a time.

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/minimum-wage-since-1938/

At a time when the MW was actually going up in real value it took FORTY YEARS for it to double for about $4 to $8 in 2015 dollars.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:01 PM

39. Any business that says that a $15 minimum wage is too high. Their business

model is shit, and they should find another line of work.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Glassunion (Reply #39)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:54 PM

74. Agreed, especially in gigantic corporations where the CEO is pulling down millions for sitting

behind his nice desk and delegating. Cut the CEO pay and bring the workers pay up to par.

That being said, yes, this will be difficult for smaller shops, but that's the cost of doing business.

The next step is getting rid of the BS restaurant servers wage and paying them like every other worker on the planet.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:01 PM

40. We have watched companies dump as

Many employees as they could from healthcare so the money they saved should go back to the employees instead of the Caymans.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:04 PM

41. In 1968,

US income per capita in unadjusted dollars was 4,695, and 1.60 was 34/10000 of the annual GDP per capita.

This year income per capita in unadjusted dollars is projected at 55,774.56 -- increased estimated over ten times. Then 34/10000 of per capita income would be $ 19. A $15 minimum wage is not high enough!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:07 PM

43. sorry, heresy does not fly here

You cannot try to be reasonable to people who will just start gathering stones if they don't agree with what you say.

Some people here think the minimum wage should be googleplex per second or something, and think that ridiculous proposals make for stronger bargaining rather than just easy dismissal.

It's an outrage that my calculator has an upper limit of 10 to the 9,999trh power. It means I cannot do computations with my minimum wage proposal.

Well it would mean that. Thank goodness I learned logarithms all those years ago.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hfojvt (Reply #43)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:11 PM

46. Oh look it is another libertarian agreeing with the pathetic attempt at sounding smart.

 

You just never disappoint in sounding just like a libertarian. Barf.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Rex (Reply #46)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:15 PM

53. I know you are

but what am I?

"You are NOT part of the body!!!"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hfojvt (Reply #43)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:32 PM

64. You don't make the case any better than the OP does

Which is to say, not at all.

WHY shouldn't the minimum wage be $15 per hour? Be specific.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tkmorris (Reply #64)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:41 PM

96. Here's my response

 

I'm picturing a 16 year old in rural West Virginia or Kentucky trying to get their first summer job. Have you driven through these areas lately? I have. I just can't imagine who is going to pay them $15 an hour. That's more than their parents make now.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hfojvt (Reply #43)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:52 PM

71. While yet others make unsupported and hyped-up allegations to better maintain the pretense

"Some people here think the minimum wage should be googleplex per second or something..."

While yet others make unsupported and hyped-up allegations to better maintain the pretenses they have relevant knowledge and make substantive contributions to threads.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:10 PM

44. Can't really add any more, the posters here already tore you a new one.

 

Your pathetic attempt at sounding like a republican...I assume you are just a confused libertarian...makes me feel sorry for you. Go get a real education and get back with us when you understand economics a little better. Google doesn't count.

Bye bye.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Rex (Reply #44)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:48 PM

69. I guess you're not a fan of Obama..... he has proposed a $10.10 minimum wage,

and has never supported $15.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #69)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:54 PM

73. that you infer merely two possibilities is on you, not anyone else.

Again, that you infer merely two possibilities is on you, not anyone else. Logical fallacies are trendy and fun, but often illustrate their users as less than intelligent.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #69)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 04:20 PM

128. Obama is wrong...

 

I vote for him twice, but he has consistently revealed himself to be too pro-business interests at the expense of the public interest, same as Hillary. It's why I'll never support Hillary and wouldn't vote for Obama again.

So...no, I'm no longer a supporter of Obama...he has done less than he promised and less than he could have.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Rex (Reply #44)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 01:00 PM

187. really? libertatians are FOR a the highest MW we ever had?

I think the person having problems understanding economics AND politics isn't I.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:11 PM

47. Too bad the Republicans control the House and the Senate.

Everyone year after year thinks it's a great idea to put labor-hating politicians into office and they wonder why the economy has no long term plan nor ANY kind of plan for near-permanently displaced workers.

Their options are

a) go into crippling debt to better themselves.
b) go into crippling debt to merely survive and hope they don't get sick.
c) win the small business lottery.
d) starve and die.

But hey, don't listen to me. Just automate everything. Consumers will come up with the money somehow. Maybe out of thin air.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:12 PM

49. Even at $10.95 per hr Walmart employees will still need our assistance.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:12 PM

50. April Fools?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:18 PM

55. $15 is Probably the Right Minimum Wage for New York and Other High-Cost Cities

but it is higher than the average or median wage in the poorest states. $15/hour in rural Arkansas is like $25 in NYC, which is too high even for that environment.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to On the Road (Reply #55)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 04:23 PM

130. For reasons of economics...it has to be the same everywhere.

 

Otherwise you will just encourage relocation of industry to the localities with the lowest wage conditional on them agreeing to resist any effort to raise the local minimum.

One $$$ everywhere. So...if it's $15 in NYC it has to be $15 in Arkansas and $15 in Seattle and San Fran. They can set a higher local prevailing wage...but not a lower one.

The push is $15 everywhere...not $15 where $15 is still a poverty wage.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chan790 (Reply #130)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 05:34 PM

139. I Would Say the Opposite

Cost of living index:
Manhattan, NY 216
Springfield, MO 88

How can you have the same minimum wage in both? They're not comparable.

[small]Source: http://www.infoplease.com/business/economy/cost-living-index-us-cities.html [/small]






Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to On the Road (Reply #139)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 08:25 PM

157. It doesn't matter.

 

If you index the minimum wage...you will see jobs relocated to those states that are not only lowest MW but also most resistant to any rise in minimum wage once their prosperity improves.

It becomes a race to the bottom.

You will see any job that can be relocated from NY state to KS actually be relocated to KS.

It has to be the same everywhere.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:18 PM

56. Funny all the outrage here about a post that agrees with President Obama on this issue.

He has never advocated a $15 minimum wage, but has proposed that it be $10.10.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #56)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 04:25 PM

131. $10.10 is a bullshit low number and Obama should be embarrassed by it.

 

No, I absolutely do not agree with the President. If I was Barack Obama I would be ashamed of my support for a $10.10 minimum.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:27 PM

59. Needed to be indexed with inflation a long time ago

And not the fake inflation that doesnt take into account drug prices and other things

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:27 PM

60. The median wage where I live is a bit over $13/hr

 

Not sure how the MINIMUM wage could be raised to $15/hr here.

I think the minimum wage should be indexed to local cost of living. $15/hr is probably too high where I live, but it's probably way too low for places like NYC or LA.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Adrahil (Reply #60)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 04:27 PM

132. "locally indexed minimum" not an acceptable proposal.

 

It will merely act to encourage job-flight to the cheapest labor-markets.

One minimum everywhere needs to remain the law of the land.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chan790 (Reply #132)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 05:37 PM

141. NO. That's not even close to logical.

 

The buying power of $15 in NYC is not even CLOSE to the buying power of $15 here.

Also, minimum wage jobs tend to be low-end service jobs. They can't relocate to rural areas.

The fact is, a flat minimum wage means that poor people concentrated in cities (mostly minorities, btw) get screwed compared to rural minimum wage workers, since their $15/hr come sup much shorter in terms of buying power.

Look at this:

[link:https://uniformlyuninformative.wordpress.com/2010/10/11/city-data-screen-scraper-and-maps/|]

How does a flat minimum wage make any sense in this context?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Adrahil (Reply #141)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 08:32 PM

158. Look at what?

 

There's nothing there.

It's completely logical. It's not even debateable because we already see it...jobs, at every level of the spectrum from entry-level minimum-wage to the top of the pay-scale, flow from higher-cost labor markets to lower-cost labor markets already. Local indexing will increase this rate of flow because it will make the cheaper markets much cheaper than they are now.

Also, a greater increase in prosperity for people in more-rural markets doesn't actually screw workers who also get an increase in prosperity, albeit a lesser increase, in more-urban markets. It isn't like raising the minimum wage increases the rate of inflation or the price of goods...that's one of those misunderstandings that people that don't actually understand how these things work, believe.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chan790 (Reply #158)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 09:09 PM

162. For reason, the link did not paste.

 

https://uniformlyuninformative.wordpress.com/2010/10/11/city-data-screen-scraper-and-maps/

Cost of living and median income are not evenly distributed. If someone living in New York City is making the same minimum wage as someone in Peru, Indiana, the person in New York is going to be much worse off than the person in Peru. And Burger King already has a franchise in Peru, so I promise they will not move the BKs in NYC to Peru.

This is uneven and unfair. It makes no sense.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Adrahil (Reply #162)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 09:56 PM

168. The person in NYC is not going to be worse off than they are now.

 

The person in Peru is just going to see a more substantial gain than the person in NYC. They're both going to see a gain...the larger gain in Peru does nothing to harm the person in NYC.

Seeking equality and fairness in outcomes is part of the problem, never the solution...it presupposes that every gain is offset by someone else's equivalent loss. That's not true. There is someone who is seeing a loss here and it's me as the business owner...and trust me when I say it's not even close to equal to the gain by the worker.

The person who lives in NYC is perfectly free to move to Peru for the greater gain, if they so choose. That is entirely different than having their job relocated to Peru without their input so that some business owner can continue to pay them the same minimum wage they receive now. (Which is the outcome of the solution you favor.) Their lesser gain is entirely because they choose to live someplace with a higher cost of living...for that matter, I live in a 5000sqft mansion in W. CT on a mountain top. My 3.5 acre backyard (at approx. $1M/acre) probably costs more than all the real estate in rural Peru, Indiana too. My cost of living is higher than what it would be in rural Indiana too...that's because W. CT is a much nicer place to live.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chan790 (Reply #168)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 09:55 AM

183. Okay, i think that's nuts. Good day. NT

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:30 PM

62. What the heck is it to you? How much do you make an hour?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:45 PM

66. I completely agree

 

I think $15 is ok for some select very expensive metro areas, but is way too high for most of the country. $10/hr should be the national minimum wage.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to taught_me_patience (Reply #66)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 05:22 PM

195. with talk like that....

That's $1 lower than I proposed. With talk like that some here are sure to accuse you of being a secret GOPer, of supporting "predatory employment", and you'll make their ignore list. It seems many here don't quite get the idea that this MW is the MINIMUM for the entire nation.... a floor for unskilled labor. Joe's Garage out in East Shitcake isn't going to pay some kid $15 to sweep the floor.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:47 PM

68. New York State Has Much Rural Territory

and just passed $15 minimum wage with bipartisan support.

America finally is back on the path to a living wage for all.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to corbettkroehler (Reply #68)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 02:00 PM

100. not quite true

From http://www.syracuse.com/state/index.ssf/2016/03/cuomo_announces_ny_state_budget_deal_includes_15_minimum_wage.html

The bill really targets the high population centers around NYC...

For workers in the rest of the state, in Upstate New York, the minimum wage would increase to $9.70 at the end of 2016, then another 70 cents each year after until reaching $12.50 on 12/31/2020. After that, it may continue to increase to $15 on an indexed schedule to be set by the director of the Division of Budget in consultation with the Department of Labor.

In 2019, the state can suspend the future minimum increases if the economy is not doing well.

Cuomo said he expects the Upstate minimum wage to reach $15 an hour, and said it will be entirely up to the governor's budget director after 2021 to decide if the economic data shows the economy will supports that.


At least this bill makes the distinction between rural and urban.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 12:58 PM

76. numbers can be manipulated in many fashions...here is the history with (2014 real dollars value):

Minimum Wage Increases Over the Years
October 1938 (FDR): $0.25/hr ($4.15/hr in 2014 dollars)

October 1939 (FDR): $0.30/hr ($5.05/hr)

October 1945 (Truman): $0.40/hr ($5.20/hr)

January 1950 (Truman): $0.75/hr ($7.29/hr)

March 1956 (Eisenhower): $1/hr ($8.61/hr)

September 1961 (Kennedy): $1.16/hr ($8.97/hr)

September 1963 (Kennedy): $1.25/hr ($9.56/hr)

February 1967 (Johnson): $1.40/hr ($9.80/hr)

February 1968 (Johnson): $1.60/hr ($10.75/hr)

May 1974 (Nixon): $2/hr ($9.49/hr)

January 1975 (Ford): $2.10/hr ($9.13/hr)

January 1976 (Ford): $2.30/hr ($9.47/hr)

January 1978 (Carter): $2.65 ($9.51/hr)

January 1979 (Carter): $2.90/hr ($9.34/hr)

January 1980 (Carter): $3.10/hr ($8.80/hr)

January 1981 (Carter): $3.35/hr ($8.62/hr)

April 1990 (Bush): $3.80/hr ($6.82/hr)

April 1991 (Bush): $4.25/hr ($7.30/hr)

October 1996 (Clinton): $4.75/hr ($7.08/hr)

September 1997 (Clinton): $5.15/hr ($7.51/hr)

July 2007 (GW Bush): $5.85/hr ($6.61/hr)

July 2008 (GW Bush): $6.55/hr ($7.12/hr)

July 2009 (Obama): $7.25/hr ($7.80/hr)

As you can see, the minimum wage has increased in a linear fashion in terms of dollars, but in terms of real dollars, minimum wage has declined sharply from its highest point in February 1968.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:01 PM

78. Maybe, just maybe, expectations for high profits for everything

 

Is the actual culprit ....

I'm not a fan of proponents of right wing economics, so I have no choice but to deflect your comments to the dead letter bin ...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:10 PM

81. restaurant owners probably couldnt pay it

Small business would have trouble

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Mary Mac (Reply #81)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:20 PM

87. There would certainly be an automation boom, especially in fast food.

Ordering from automated kiosks would probably become the norm. And supermarket self-checkouts would multiply dramatically.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:11 PM

82. $15 per hour as minimum wage might be good as....

 

...the starting position in negotiations with Congressional Republicans. They may come back with $8 per hour, and ultimately the compromise might be $11.00 or so.
And I suspect that $11 per hour as a minimum wage is not going to have a terrible impact on the unemployment rate.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:11 PM

83. Have you thought about starting a, The Minimum Wage Is Too Dam High party?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Capt. Obvious (Reply #83)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:37 PM

92. +1

 

LOL

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:13 PM

84. Sounds about right.

$10.90 an hour where I live (in Tennessee) would be a huge game-changer for a lot of people.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:17 PM

86. This is to be phased in by 2022

I think it will work out just fine.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:28 PM

90. Actually that number is placed

 

Anywhere from 18 to 20 depending on the economist you read.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 01:39 PM

93. ugh.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 02:09 PM

102. How much do you make?

 

I notice that much as a return to the draft is advocated by people who are safe from being drafted, shorting the minimum wage is exclusively advocated by people who are well above it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 02:14 PM

103. Your concern for Corporate CEO's and the top 1%'s money has been duly noted.

eom

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 02:38 PM

110. Agreed

 

The current minimum wage is shamefully low. Accounting for inflation it should at LEAST be raised to $10-$11 per hour nationally. $15 seems just a bit high though. Some jobs really don't take any skill beyond just being a warm body.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 02:40 PM

111. apology accepted

 

Enjoy your 8.00 per hour lifestyle.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 02:42 PM

112. what complete bullshit. Those who cannot pay for rent or food or medicine know better.

CEOs make over 400% more than their average worker. I think they can afford $15/hr. You are going straight to my ignore list.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 02:45 PM

113. Most labor economists disagree. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 02:50 PM

114. Since 1968, the US per capita GDP, allowing for inflation, has risen by 125%

http://www.multpl.com/us-real-gdp-per-capita/table/by-year

If the minimum wage rose in line with that, you'd be putting it up to $24.63.

GDP has risen by an average of 1.7% per year. Putting the minimum wage up to $15 would be the equivalent of an average 0.66% rise above inflation, each year. That seems fairly modest.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 02:57 PM

116. Anyone who thinks this should take a voluntary pay cut to $10.95 an hour.

Put your lack of money where your mouth is.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nichomachus (Reply #116)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 03:38 PM

240. Bravo! +1000

I've actually been saying that for years to people who last made minimum wage back in the 60s - 80s. They have absolutely no idea how much buying power the minimum wage has lost over the past decades and furthermore most don't really give a shite when you press them on the issue either. It's the "Fuck you Jack, I got mine" mentality all over again.

For example I made $5/hour in the early 90s while in college (MW was $4.25 at the time) and due to the crappy economy and a layoff in 2012 I make $8/hour now (I had been making $20/hour + excellent benefits when I was fortunate enough to work within my industry). That $5/hour wage had quite a bit more buying power back then than my $8/hour does today. Not only does the MW need to be indexed for inflation it also needs to have expenses not included in the inflation index factored in as stated in above posts.

It is unconscionable that people are working 40+ hours a week and can't even afford an EFFICIENCY apartment on their own in my area and I'm in a CHEAP part of the South. Everyone I work with RIGHT NOW lives with relatives due to housing costs except our general manager. Ridiculous! My company is a $6 billion a year business and pays our CEO tens of millions a year for what? Golfing? Schmoozing? What, pray tell, is this guy doing that makes HIS service worth so much more than those of us that actually you know, do the real work?

Oh, and the $20/hour job I had? It's a $6 billion dollar a year company as well except THEY started their new hires out at $13 back in 2012.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Melurkyoulongtime (Reply #240)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 05:21 PM

243. I know what you mean; and it drives me crazy too

It's always the same thing with them: They lecture today's teens ( their own kids even ) about how they should be more self-sufficien....like they were when they worked for minimum wage back in the late 60s.

I have always pointed out to them the aplles vs oranges aspect. Miinum wage in the 60s would be over 15 dollars and hour today, adjusted. They studiously ignore that as they look back on a pothole free memory lane.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nichomachus (Reply #116)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 05:19 PM

242. WTF are you babbling about?

Where have I EVER suggested that states should not be free to go above the federal minimum or that cities in states can't go higher than their state?

What we're talking about is the NATIONAL MW... the lowest an unskilled kid sweeping a floor can be paid... and no business, except in a high flying city with a labor shortage is going to pay that kid $31k a year. And then there's the absurdity to think that $15 is a living wage in that big city isn't just pure gravy for some kid living at home in East Shitcake WV.

NY's approach for $15 near NYC and $12.50 upstate... wait and see after that, makes more sense than CA's approach to go $15 state wide. I predicting a backlash outside the big cities. But we won't know for 4-5 years.

But feel free to wave that magic wand and decree your word be done... after all, it's not your money.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #242)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 06:36 PM

244. That "kid" you speak of

doesn't usually get 40 or more hours a week scheduled at their job in the first place. And if they're actual teenagers they shouldn't as there are laws regarding that and they're supposed to be in school anyway. What you are not realizing is a lot of people that are adults are starting to have to work these jobs due to a layoff, divorce, etc and they can't even support themselves on it much less their families. And it's not like they're settling for a dead end job because they're lazy or stupid or uneducated; it's because those companies are the ones actually hiring in their area and they're desperate for ANY kind of income coming in. A country that runs on and even encourages desperation in its workers doesn't remain a first world country for long.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 03:13 PM

117. wow





Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 03:30 PM

120. I think your on the wrong website. This is the one for the LIBERAL party. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 04:23 PM

129. Why don't you want people to make enough money to live on without subsidies?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Kalidurga (Reply #129)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 04:28 PM

133. +1000! n/t

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chan790 (Reply #133)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 06:17 PM

143. I know right?

It always seem like it's somebody that doesn't work in a minimum wage job trying to support him or herself and their family that's complaining about how the minimum can't be $15/hour. These people disgusts me. How come they never post "sorry...a $4,000,000 a year salary is too high"?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Kalidurga (Reply #129)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 06:58 PM

149. He must like paying higher taxes.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to B Calm (Reply #149)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 07:29 PM

153. Well as long as those taxes are going to the hard working Walmart family...

it's alright. It's not easy being a billionaire.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 05:35 PM

140. Come down here to Austin and see of you can live on less.

Rents here are pushing $1000/mo per bedroom.
Most jobs are now service jobs which are not full-time.


Come on down and try it for a while. Let us know how it feels to be living under an overpass and dumpster diving for food.
Until then I suggest you STFU about $15/hr is too high.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 05:47 PM

142. Disruption can be a good thing in an unequal, unjust system.

The American War for Independence is one example of a beneficial "disruption".

We need to finish our political revolution, and various disruptions will definitely be a major part of how we take down the 1%. and take our country back.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 06:32 PM

144. Right-wing horseshit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 06:36 PM

146. LOL, 89 posts. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 06:55 PM

148. Welcome Ewoks

it is my hope that your posts will get better in time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 07:26 PM

152. I will direct you away from the thought of dollars out of your pocket to one glaring fact

NO BUSINESS OWNER HAS EVER CALLED FOR THE ROLLBACK OF A MINIMUM WAGE INCREASE, even the ones who fought against it tooth and nail before it went into effect. Do you know why? It's because that increase translated into increased business far above the increased pay for his own workers. It's counterintuitive for budgeters and MBAs, but that's how the world works.

High wages at the bottom are what fueled the longest boom this country has ever experienced. Think about that for just a minute. The minimum wage was originally set to keep one full time worker earning enough to support a wife and two kids above the poverty line. It's set that way even for unskilled and service workers around the world and their economies are much healthier than ours. So are their people, a side benefit of having enough to live on.

You can't be stingy with workers and expect to have a healthy economy. You're choking off the demand side when you try. Look around your area at all the empty storefronts. This is a direct result of cheap labor conservatism. Higher wages would have kept those businesses open.

Yours might be next.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Warpy (Reply #152)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 03:48 PM

214. back it up

You claimed" High wages at the bottom are what fueled the longest boom this country has ever experienced. Think about that for just a minute. The minimum wage was originally set to keep one full time worker earning enough to support a wife and two kids above the poverty line.

Two points... we could support higher wages when we had a protectionist economy. All the REAL value of the MW increase steadily (with dips) from 1950 to 1968. Here's an interactive chart http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/minimum-wage-since-1938/ We have to close the escape hatch for companies to bolt the US for cheap labor nations... or to bring cheap goods in without heavy tariffs.

Second... who ever said the MW "originally set to keep one full time worker earning enough to support a wife and two kids above the poverty line" Let's see your credible source.

The original MW in 1938 was 25c... $520 a year... which translates into $4.19 an hour today.

The average income back in 1938 was $2116 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1660486/pdf/calwestmed00361-0070b.pdf

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #214)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 04:04 PM

219. Sure

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/why-raising-the-minimum-wage-is-good-economics/

http://www.dol.gov/featured/minimum-wage/mythbuster

You might also want to explore how much inflation is built into fiat currency. Yes, it is.

Right now, the inflation hysterics are shrieking along with men who see dollars getting away from them and into the pockets of their workers. Please consider that the original minimum wage was set to support a single earner and his family. Also consider that the present minimum wage won't support a single earner in safe housing, with nutritious food, and with other frills like medical care when he gets sick. Paying a worker less than it takes to keep him alive is fantastically immoral. It's also self defeating since it cuts into the demand side of the market equation. I won't even bother to address the appalling ethics of expecting taxpayers to subsidize underpaid retail workers so the retail company can maximize profits.

You will notice I posted only two sites instead of issuing a barrage, something I am certainly capable of. I think there is a ghost of a chance you might actually read only two. I don't hold out much hope that the reality check will be cashed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Warpy (Reply #219)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 09:57 AM

225. sorry, your sites do NOT prove what you claimed

Here was my question

Second... who ever said the MW "originally set to keep one full time worker earning enough to support a wife and two kids above the poverty line" Let's see your credible source.

The original MW in 1938 was 25c... $520 a year... which translates into $4.19 an hour today.

The average income back in 1938 was $2116 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1660486/pdf/calwestmed00361-0070b.pdf


Neither of your sites prove your claim...

As I've repeatedly said, $15 may be fine for urban areas that have a higher cost of living, but if we're talking about a NATIONAL MW, then it has to make sense for even the depressed areas of the nation... and the owner of Joe's Garage in East Bumcake isn't going to hire a kid for $15 to sweep the floor and clean the toilets. The concept of a living wage sounds great but blinds advocates to the simple reality that there's no way to have one single "living wage" for the entire nation. If that kid living at home in East Bumcake gets that $15 it's all gravy. For a mom who's a waitress in San Francisco with a kid in daycare... that $15 doesn't cut it. And yet it's obvious something has to be done since that $7.25 is criminally low.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 07:34 PM

155. I would say, in some places a $15 minimum wage is too high, i.e., ...

 

the rural south and rural regions of Kentucky, West VA, etc.); but, in urban metropolises, it is way too low.

That is the problem with a national minimum wage.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 07:35 PM

156. Actually, NY State govt just reached a deal for a "two-tiered" raise in the MW

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-new-york-budget-wages-idUSKCN0WX2OM

snip

Governor Andrew Cuomo and state legislative leaders reached a deal on Thursday to raise New York state's minimum wage towards $15 per hour, but fell short of a uniform state-wide increase.

The deal outlines a faster rise in New York City, but carves out a slow lane for small businesses and surrounding counties. In less prosperous areas north of the city it rises to $12.50 per hour before a state review of the law's impact.

The minimum wage agreement was part of a broad budget deal that Cuomo announced late on Thursday. He said the plan included 12 weeks of paid family leave and $4.2 billion in tax cuts. The $147 billion budget caps spending growth at 2 percent.

"I believe that this is the best plan the state has produced in decades," Cuomo told a news conference in the state capital, Albany. Cuomo has earmarked $100 billion in infrastructure spending in the state.
snip

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 10:45 PM

170. wrong website

does freeperville still exist?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 10:49 PM

171. Anytime the military receives a raise in the form of

A BAH raise (basic allowance for housing) the rents in the nearby communities go up to reflect the change. The leeches (landlords) suck away any chance for people to better themselves. That extra money goes poof rather quickly.

I would think that the $15 hike in the minimum wage would have the same effect. Rents would go up to absorb all of a persons gains. I am aware that some local governments have laws in place to protect from exactly this sort of thing but I am worried about the places that don't have protections.

$15 an hour with reasonable prices to rent a place and nobody would have a problem.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 10:50 PM

172. Absolutely zero evidence to back that up.

Eom

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:21 PM

176. De facto minimum wage in oil patch north dakota is $15 per hour. Best economy ever.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:32 PM

178. Any raise in MW that large will be phased in n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 11:51 PM

179. You sound like a Republican..and it ain't so.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bkkyosemite (Reply #179)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 05:30 PM

197. The OP favors a higher minimum wage than President Obama (nt)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 12:50 PM

186. You been a member here for 4 days huh? Thread trashed, total ignore.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TeamPooka (Reply #186)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 04:48 PM

193. another content-free drive by

Maybe if you bothered to make a substantive argument.. oh, that's right. You'll never read this.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TeamPooka (Reply #186)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 10:41 AM

234. The support and agreement the poster has gained in 4 days are a real telltale too!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lunasun (Reply #234)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 12:40 PM

239. so I'm to post what some others want to hear?

Leaving aside that there are some here... and NO, they're not closet GOPers, who agree with me... are you suggesting I post what others want to hear? Sorry... the $15 MW certainly makes sense in some cities but not as a NATIONAL MW that will apply even to some gas station in East Bumcake WV. No one's going to pay a kid $31k a year to sweep the floor when they might be getting by on $25k after expenses. But feel free to keep waving that magic wand that OF COURSE any and every business can afford to pay $15... plus the added FICA which would amount to an extra $1240ish a year if someone originally was making $7.25.

Currently the highest MW in any state is $10... but CA and NY are moving to $15... though NY's law is for the NYC area. Elsewhere it's $12.50 and it's wait and see.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 03:23 PM

191. I love how people who make an actual living wage think those

of us who don't need to make do with whatever we can get

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 03:25 PM

192. Check this out... local restaurant, metro Detroit, has been paying a $15 min wage for 2.5 years...

http://mic.com/articles/125268/heres-whats-happening-2-years-after-moo-cluck-moo-started-paying-workers-15-dollars-an-hour#.dFXLzrxpo

It certainly gives the lie to your bullshit about "enormous disruptions" in the economy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to GreenEyedLefty (Reply #192)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 04:56 PM

194. another magic wand post

You do realize what the term MINIMUM means, right? It's the standard for UNSKILLED labor in any and everyplace in nation.

So your rebuttal to that is to find some places that pay more? Sure they exist. Numerous cities are moving to higher than their state's MW. And for the record the HIGHEST state MW today is $10. BUT CITIES ARE NOT THE ENTIRE NATION.

Even NY is not going to apply its eventual $15 to the entire state. Upstate may never get past $12.50 and that's for 2019.





Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #194)

Sun Apr 3, 2016, 09:24 AM

200. The point was that paying a high "minimum" wage

in an industry where the standard wage is $2.00, did not damage the restaurant's success. In fact, they are more successful and planning on opening more.

They key part of the story but obviously you missed it, is that the owners made a business decision to "spread the wealth, and share it with the team."

It's not necessary for businesses to make multiple billions in profits at the expense of their workers.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to GreenEyedLefty (Reply #200)

Sun Apr 3, 2016, 10:10 AM

202. spreading the wealth is fine


But not all areas of the nation, nor can every business, afford $15 for even the most unskilled worker. Really, Joe's Garage in the backwaters of West Virginia is going to hire a kid and pay them $31k a year to sweep the floor and clean toilets? What wealth does Joe have to spread? You can't apply a wage in a metro area to rural areas.

Yes, of course we need a reasonable national minimum wage just as we expect business to pay OT after 40, and have safe working conditions etc. It's a reasonable expectation given that We The People provide business with plenty of freebies. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027733743

And if a business can't meet these reasonable expectations, perhaps there is something wrong with their business model and they should close or work all the hours themselves.

My point is it's so easy for some here to sit on their high horses and pontificate that OF COURSE everyone, even unskilled teens, should get $15... which means those with skills will get more. Someone here even suggested pay be based on a MW plus their dependencies. Wow... right out of LaLa Land. So $15 plus maybe $5 more an hour per kid... and some business is going to pay $52k a year to a worker because they have two kids when the same work could be done by a single person for $31k?

There are two parties involved here not just one. And we've done much to create an economy that's addicted to a depreciating MW over the past 35 years especially. It's like how back in the 70's the economy was addicted to cheap oil and the OPEC oil embargo hammered us. We need to restructure the economy along numerous lines to make it reasonable again for workers. We need to reverse the sabotaging of our industrial sector with free trade, we need to get that MW back up at least to 1968 levels and from then on have guaranteed COLA increases. Just going back to 1968 MW alone would mean $7300 more a year. We need to prevent companies from fleeing the nation by changing tax laws. We can impose a higher burden on business with a protectionist economy than one where business has all these escape hatches.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 05:27 PM

196. Minimum wage, controlled for cost of living and corporate stratification should be $20/hour...

Tell your friends. I think the basement door is open, so they should hear you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 06:17 PM

198. .......

:large

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Sun Apr 3, 2016, 09:41 AM

201. lol

 

so silly

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SoLeftIAmRight (Reply #201)

Sun Apr 3, 2016, 10:11 AM

203. wow...

Another content-free "rebuttal".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #203)

Sun Apr 3, 2016, 10:55 PM

208. why rebut rw shit

 

laugh - it is what they merit

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SoLeftIAmRight (Reply #208)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 03:08 PM

211. translation

you're unable to defend your own position... so you just call anyone you disagree with a right winger.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #211)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 11:44 PM

223. you are being silly

 

want to have a real discussion?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Sun Apr 3, 2016, 10:33 AM

204. I reject your argument.

 

The minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation. By simply saying "oh we will adjust for inflation, problem solved" you ignore the legacy of the effect of surviving without a living wage.

It's much like urban schools in depressed areas. Without the tax base of Grosse Pointe or Bloomfield Hills, the Detroit schools, supported by mainly local taxes, accrued decades of severe structural and maintenance problems. Then along with Proposal A, which switched school funding to mainly state taxes - a much more equitable approach. However, $100,000 in Grosse Pointe schools can be used for ipads, or swimming pools, or orchestra equipment, or a couple extra teachers - but in Detroit, it doesn't cover the cost of roof repairs that had been neglected to the point where some of the ceilings were literally caving in. So it's "even" funding - but still not equitable until the legacy is addressed.

When we look at families who have been surviving on the minimum wage, instead of being able to build equity in homes, or keep up with basic expenses or preventative health care, they have decades of accrued extra expenses and debts they are dealing with. This includes health problems they've put off addressing, or debt from the ones they did address. No home equity because there was no way to scrape together a down payment or qualify for a loan - so they will be paying rent throughout their old age, instead of having a house paid off. And there's no house for kids to inherit. They will have spent more dealing with the predatory lenders that DWS is so fond of. They don't have 401k plans. The pensions that covered almost half of all private sector employees in the 1970's now covers 3% of employees.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to noamnety (Reply #204)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 03:33 PM

213. reject what argument?

You wrote The minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation. By simply saying "oh we will adjust for inflation, problem solved" you ignore the legacy of the effect of surviving without a living wage.
Hey, I wasn't the one who let the MW depreciate. I'm merely suggesting that we go back the highest the MW has ever been. BLS and BEA data show it didn't cause inflation nor cause unemployment.

But I think the idea of a "living wage" blinds more than reveals. A national MW is the MINIMUM someone can pay for unskilled labor no matter if an area is economically depressed or a floating high urban area. A set $15 might be pure gravy for that kid who gets $15 to sweep the garage floor and clean toilets in some small town... and it still might be survival wages for a mom and a kid in an urban area. Currently the highest MW in the nation is DC at $10.50. The highest states are CA and MA @ $10. NY and CA are moving to $15. CA is statewide and NY is exempting upstate and will go to $12.50... then it's wait and see. And we'll wait and see what happens.

What I fear is we've built an economy not only on a depreciating MW but one that sabotaged its own industrial base with free trade. That creates two dynamics. One is it gets rid of higher paying jobs that workers to leave MW jobs for and that competition put upward pressure on wages. And free trade created an escape hatch for companies to run from having to pay higher wages... but instead feeling a need to compete with nations that allow their populations to be exploited. I think we need to block that escape hatch or $15 will just cause more companies to leave. I don't know if you're old enough to remember the oil crisis of the 70s'. We had an economy addicted to cheap oil and there were painful adjustments when the price went up. Recessions were tightly correlated to price spikes in oil.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Sun Apr 3, 2016, 02:16 PM

205. good lord. welcome to ignore.

you are sorry, alright.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hiraeth (Reply #205)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 03:51 PM

215. I welcome your ignore

Since clearly you can't rationally discuss this issue.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 03:25 PM

212. Lemme guess, you make WELL over $15/hr

or you used to prior to retiring, if you're retired.

I wouldn't expect someone who uses words like quintile to give a rat's ass about people who have to try to make ends meet on minimum wage.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TheDormouse (Reply #212)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 03:59 PM

217. and I would not expect...

And I'd not expect anyone who's never run a business or made a payroll to understand that there are two parties in this equation... the worker and the one who has to pay them. And so you're free to wave your magic wand because it's not your money.

I know, I'm a terrible person who simply wants to go back to the highest MW we've ever had... 51% higher than today... and let states or cities that know an area can afford to go higher... do so.

So how many unskilled teens are going to get hired for $15 at a gas station in East Bumcake to sweep the floor and clean toilets?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #217)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 04:03 PM

218. if u can't afford to pay workers decently u shouldnt be in business

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TheDormouse (Reply #218)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 10:23 AM

231. sure, and I've made this argument in other forums

The question is what's a decent wage? You seem to believe that the HIGHEST the MW has ever been isn't enough even if it's 51% higher than it is today. The problem is that we're talking about a NATIONAL MW... not a regional one. And as such it has to make sense for EVERY region in the US... from a high flying city to some depressed backwater. But what's happened is under the guise of a living wage... and that $15 set in CITIES... people are trying to say that then can safely be applied EVERYWHERE. But who's going to hire a kid to sweep the floor in a garage and clean toilets for $15 in some depressed backwater when they may be scraping out a living at $25k? If the kid gets it... he's living high off the hog. If the employer was paying $7.25 s/he would have to cough up another a whopping $17,347 more a year, that includes $1248 extra a year for FICA. It's sooooo easy to just wave a magic wand and say.... hey... the owner of that gas station should pay that.

For a mom who's a waitress living in San Francisco... that $15 may still not cut it.

That high minded ideal for a "living wage" blinds advocates to this simple reality. Which is why I've advocated for the HIGHEST the MW has ever been as the national floor... states and cities can go above that if they want.

But we also have to remember that back in 1968 we had a protectionist economy. We have to close that escape hatch for US companies... and importers... else we're into uncharted territory.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #217)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 04:06 PM

220. this argument is as weak as opposing OSHA or FDA or EPA laws

Food safety?
I would not expect anyone who's never run a restaurant to understand that there are two parties in this equation. The customer and the one who has to buy the food they are eating. And so you're free to wave your magic wand because it's not your money.

Sorry, but I like laws that protect consumers and workers. Owning a business is a privilege, not a right.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TheDormouse (Reply #220)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 10:38 AM

233. no, it IS a right

Just like driving a car is a right. The Constitution was based on the premise that the People retained all rights except what we surrendered to create government powers. But the very concept of liberty is that all rights can never be enumerated... so the presumption of rights always exists. So say otherwise buys into Scalia's restricted view on rights http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027725258

Government clearly has the power to regulate both driving and owning a business in the public interest... but that anyone who meets the requirements then HAS A RIGHT to drive or own a business. What YOU are saying is the government CREATED a right to drive or own a business... and that's dangerous territory.

If a business can't meet regulations such as food and worker safety laws... and a REASONABLE minimum wage, etc THEN it can be said it has no right to be in business.

See the difference?

What I'd say is NOT a right is when business gets freebies connected to incorporation such as free limited liability protection.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027733743

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Reply #217)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 11:05 AM

235. $15 plus transportation allowance here.When you make assumptions about who is posting and disagrees

it gives insight in to your prejudices
As a person of color I am very sensitive to stereotypes like the one above you are using about DU
No one here on DU could possibly run a biz or/and make profit ,,,??? because you know us all
And if we do own a small biz then we just don't understand,,,, & yes in the end it is my money!

Maybe your statement should have been
Just not greedy enough, or do not understand how to be fair to workers who make your biz what it is and still make a profit.
Oh I know, paying workers fair wage is why the business doesn't grow but it has been

Keep the lie going that it can not be done though...your masters approve and will give you no great reward
Your ignorance deserves an ignore.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 03:57 PM

216. "that $1.60 of 1968 would be worth $10.95 *today*"

 

The key word there is "today". California's bill raises the wage gradually, starting at $11 this year, then stepping up to $15 over the next few years.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KamaAina (Reply #216)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 04:20 PM

222. CA is starting at $10

But CA is tied with MA as the highest MW state currently. CA is already at $10 an hour so that's a 10% increase.

BUT NOT ALL STATES ARE CALIFORNIA. About half the states are still BELOW $8... and 19 are at $7.25.

I have no objections to states going above even that $10.95 which would represent the inflation adjusted 1968 MW. But we're talking about the national minimum for even unskilled teens in depressed areas of the nation. We know from BEA and BLS numbers the economy didn't suffer from that $10.95. Going to $15 for every area of the nation, rich or poor, dynamic or depressed, is really uncharted territory... especially since we no longer have a protectionist economy.




Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eniwetok (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 11:13 AM

236. Did everyone note the date that this was posted?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread