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Thu Mar 24, 2016, 07:45 AM

Borowitz: 'Stopping Trump is short term solution''

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Reply Borowitz: 'Stopping Trump is short term solution'' (Original post)
Ichingcarpenter Mar 2016 OP
sendero Mar 2016 #1
AgerolanAmerican Mar 2016 #58
oberliner Mar 2016 #2
gollygee Mar 2016 #4
oberliner Mar 2016 #5
LiberalElite Mar 2016 #8
oberliner Mar 2016 #9
Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2016 #12
oberliner Mar 2016 #15
Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2016 #41
mountain grammy Mar 2016 #17
muriel_volestrangler Mar 2016 #21
oberliner Mar 2016 #23
muriel_volestrangler Mar 2016 #30
oberliner Mar 2016 #33
Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2016 #11
oberliner Mar 2016 #14
billhicks76 Mar 2016 #19
oberliner Mar 2016 #24
mdbl Mar 2016 #25
oberliner Mar 2016 #26
GreenPartyVoter Mar 2016 #53
Oneironaut Mar 2016 #55
oberliner Mar 2016 #56
Surya Gayatri Mar 2016 #3
Duppers Mar 2016 #6
A Simple Game Mar 2016 #22
Duppers Mar 2016 #27
A Simple Game Mar 2016 #38
LiberalElite Mar 2016 #7
malthaussen Mar 2016 #10
Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2016 #13
malthaussen Mar 2016 #16
Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2016 #39
malthaussen Mar 2016 #50
A Simple Game Mar 2016 #31
malthaussen Mar 2016 #51
A Simple Game Mar 2016 #52
malthaussen Mar 2016 #54
A Simple Game Mar 2016 #57
Gidney N Cloyd Mar 2016 #18
Gothmog Mar 2016 #20
merrily Mar 2016 #28
A Simple Game Mar 2016 #34
merrily Mar 2016 #35
A Simple Game Mar 2016 #40
merrily Mar 2016 #42
A Simple Game Mar 2016 #43
merrily Mar 2016 #44
A Simple Game Mar 2016 #46
merrily Mar 2016 #47
A Simple Game Mar 2016 #48
ReallyIAmAnOptimist Mar 2016 #29
merrily Mar 2016 #36
Cosmocat Mar 2016 #45
zalinda Mar 2016 #32
merrily Mar 2016 #37
Wounded Bear Mar 2016 #49
Rebkeh Mar 2016 #59
liberalfromaustin21 Mar 2016 #60

Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 07:57 AM

1. No moron..

... the long term solution is to reinvent government so that it works for the people, not the oligarchy.

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Response to sendero (Reply #1)

Fri Mar 25, 2016, 01:00 AM

58. exactly

 

good that it didn't take more than one reply to hit the nail on the head

Trump is a protest vote on the GOP side in many of the same ways that Sanders is on our side.

We are sick and tired of the establishment screwing us all and becoming fabulously wealthy by doing so.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 08:02 AM

2. Quotes like this make liberals look bad

 

Feeds into the stereotype that liberals think they are smarter than everyone else.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #2)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 08:27 AM

4. Conservatives think they're smarter than everyone else too

Have you talked to them or read what they write? They think we're "low information voters" and all sorts of things.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #4)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 08:28 AM

5. Yes, indeed

 

Best not to say things along the lines of "if only people weren't so uneducated (or mis-educated), then they would think the right way, like me." Conservatives definitely do that all the time, but so do some liberals.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #2)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 08:42 AM

8. IMO that stereotype is

defensiveness. We're not supposed to state the truth? Liberals don't have a monopoly on being P.C. then

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Response to LiberalElite (Reply #8)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 08:51 AM

9. But look at that quote

 

Don't you think it is demeaning?

When Bernie Sanders talks about Trump supporters, for instance, he says that he understands their anger and frustration. He doesn't call them ignorant, but instead appeals to them in a way that could persuade them to support him instead.

For me, that is a much better and more admirable approach.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #9)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:16 AM

12. Yes, but Borowitz is talking to non-Trump conservatives about Trump supporters

... and Borowitz is talking to liberals and progressives to encourage their support of education.

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #12)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:27 AM

15. But Trump supporters can post the quote on social media

 

And use it to confirm their beliefs about "liberal elitists" and whatnot.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #15)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 11:58 AM

41. They've been talking and thinking that way for decades. They are basically a lost cause.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #9)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:32 AM

17. Yes, it's demeaning.. it's supposed to be. Trump LOVES the uneducated!

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Response to oberliner (Reply #9)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:42 AM

21. But that leaves the long term problem unfixed

Trump is producing lie after lie on the campaign trail, and supporters are lapping it up. They really are ignorant, and they need better education, both in facts and in critical thinking.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #21)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:51 AM

23. Ted Cruz lies just as much on the campaign trail

 

Yet he does well with more educated Republican voters.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #23)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:25 AM

30. Looking for an objective count, not as much

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/ted-cruz/
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

Ted Cruz Donald Trump
Pants on Fire 7 21
False 30 48
Mostly False 29 19
Half True 13 17
Mostly True 16 7
True 6 3

Reporters following Trump have given up fact-checking him, because he lies so much it takes all their time:

And of course there are the lies. Politico Magazine tallied more than 60 in a week of Trump appearances. At a rally in Boca Raton, Florida, on March 13, I heard him utter at least two bald untruths in the first two minutes of his speech (he said there were 25,000 people at his Chicago rally when the arena holds fewer than 10,000, and then he repeated the falsehood that no one had been injured at the event). But journalists I talked to who continue to report the lies as such don’t feel their efforts have much effect. “How many times can you write that the same statement is untrue?” mused one reporter. “At some point, the lie stops being news.” And debunking a claim doesn’t stop Trump from making it again.

The hokum washes over you after a while. A reporter sitting next to me at the Saturday rally in Cleveland chuckled when Trump bragged there were 29,000 people in the room. “That can’t be remotely possible,” she said, lifting her head for a moment to assess the crowd, then giving up and returning her gaze to her laptop. A fire marshal later announced the attendance had been about 7,000. The lie, though, never made it into her piece. Why bother to spend the time and column space to correct a silly exaggeration, when this same man has said he might want to summarily execute enemy combatants and defile their bodies? You need to pick your battles.

“We used to fact-check everything, every day,” another reporter told me, “but it gets hard to keep up.” For a writer filing on deadline an hour after a rally ends, there’s not enough time to thoroughly fact-check the dozens of fabrications that spilled from the stage. It’s also hard to know who the fact-checking is for. At this point, anyone who hates Trump has ample evidence he’s a liar. And anyone who loves Trump doesn’t care.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/03/on_the_trail_with_donald_trump_s_disgusting_press_corps.html

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #30)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:30 AM

33. Check out this article

 

The Real Ted Cruz

I studied nearly every word the Texas senator uttered during the immigration showdown. He may be the most spectacular liar ever to run for president.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/01/ted_cruz_may_be_the_most_gifted_liar_ever_to_run_for_president.html


This is not something that would've been covered by sites like politifact. I think it's fair to say that they both lie often.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #2)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:13 AM

11. 150 years ago, 1866

"I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid; I meant, that stupid persons are generally Conservative. I believe that to be so obvious and undeniable a fact that I hardly think any hon. Gentleman will question it."

-- John Stuart Mill in a Parliamentary debate with the Conservative MP, John Pakington (May 31, 1866). Hansard, vol 183, col 1592. Pakington was referring to Footnote 3 to Chapter 7 of Mill's "Considerations on Representative Government".

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #11)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:20 AM

14. From that same Parliamentary debate

 

"It may be said that if stupidity has a tendency to Conservatism, sciolism and half-knowledge have a tendency to Liberalism."

Also from John Stuart Mill.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #2)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:38 AM

19. So What It's True

 

People have been dumbed down. Always pick truth first.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #19)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:53 AM

24. Don't tell a person that they are ugly, even if they are

 

It's not helpful.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #24)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:59 AM

25. It made Mush Limpballs a big talk show host

He called everyone ugly that was liberal. Worked for him!

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Response to mdbl (Reply #25)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:00 AM

26. Exactly

 

Everyone should strive to do the opposite of what Rush Limbaugh does.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #2)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 01:42 PM

53. Hmmmm.... I see what you are saying, but at the same time I know that the purposeful

dismantling of our schools by the right since the Raygun years certainly didn't help matters.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #2)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 03:56 PM

55. I agree, and I don't think it's true.

I think it's easy to paint the other side as ignorant and stupid. It's easy to say, "If they were more educated, they would believe what I believe!" It ignores the greater problem that exists. Trump didn't rise in a vacuum, and it's not because of stupidity.

My theory is that people are starting to hate the government so much that they'll latch onto anyone who seems to be "anti-government." It's populist politics. Why do people hate the government? Given the last decade and a half, why wouldn't they?

Trump is an opportunist. He saw an opening and jumped in, like a disease entering an open wound. People are tired of the government not caring about them. Trump doesn't care about them either and would be awful, but he's selling the opposite as his campaign purpose. He's a fake: a snake oil salesman.

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Response to Oneironaut (Reply #55)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 04:05 PM

56. Well put

 

Agreed on all points.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 08:23 AM

3. K & R. Thanks for posting.

 

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 08:28 AM

6. Andy dropped his usual humor for more direct truth.

Trouble is TPTB do not want to correct the educational system.

And, imo, people themselves could do far more critical thinking without having to be taught. Anyone with a net connection can find the facts if they're willing to forgo their narcissistic need for almost constant entertainment.


On the other hand, I love Andy.


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Response to Duppers (Reply #6)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:43 AM

22. You hit on the real problem, too many people in power and or with money

benefit from the masses being uneducated.

But in defense of the masses information is moving at such a fast pace now that it can be overwhelming at times. And much of the information is conflicting, often to serve a selfish purpose. It can seem like a whirlwind at times and I don't blame anyone for wanting to drop out occasionally.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #22)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:03 AM

27. Yes, *occasionally* is the word.

And if you choose good sources, which most R voters do not (FoxNews), will you not eliminate much of the confusion?



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Response to Duppers (Reply #27)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 11:54 AM

38. I'm also thinking of things besides politics.

Thus my mentioning of selfish purposes, you really need to know who is providing you the information to give it the proper weight in your decision making. You also need to know who owns the providers of your news. Are eggs good for you, Is coffee good for you? Should you use the Atkins diet, the low fat diet, etc. to name just one category of information that can leave you confused because the answers seem to change every year. Now chocolate is good for me? Seems like a short while ago I was told to avoid it. Even many "news" segments on the television and radio news are no more than paid advertisements.

But yes for most things you can eliminate much of the confusion, but that raises the question of how do you determine what is a good source? And when do you realize there has been a change. At times it seems to be overwhelming. Take people my age, back in the day we always trusted network news, now not so much, but how long of a transition period was there for me to realize that there had been a change? And why should I believe the people that tell me not to believe? The self education never seems to be able to take a break.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 08:38 AM

7. Hey That's

not funny.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 08:54 AM

10. No, I disagree.

The educational system is an outgrowth of society. If we are looking for root causes, here, then we need to re-work the society that produces the institutions and practices that foster a candidate like Mr Trump.

It's not that our educational system fails to teach the values of our society, but that the merest idiot can tell that the values taught by the system are in direct contradiction of how things really work.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #10)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:17 AM

13. Both are an issue. Too many parents think that an education only means getting good grades

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #13)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:27 AM

16. But that is how the system works, my dear professor...

... one gets his ticket punched, wisdom is not requisite for anything.

In our reckless desire to quantify everything, we have disparaged the value of quality. One is objective, the other not. One may be satisfied by memorization, the other requires critical thinking.

But is a parent really to be criticized for wanting his offspring to have the best edge possible in progressing as an adult? The certifications that matter are all reliant on quantitative evaluation (we'll ignore, for the nonce, the qualifications of status and connections, as they are not strictly within the control of the parent).

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #16)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 11:56 AM

39. An education is NOT antithetical to "getting your ticket punched"

It is not hard to do both, if you have aware, supportive parents. It would be even easier if there were more aware parents to push school systems for real education.

A real education serves people much better than "getting your ticket punched", as can be seen by the number of people who succeed without an ivy league degree. Further, people who are truly educated are able to change careers one or more times and be successful in multiple fields.

As you rightly point out, critical thinking is a hallmark of a quality education.

The decline in critical thinking is the real crisis of education and public live. It has been made much worse by the extreme pressures on teachers which devolve down to "teach for the test".

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #39)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 01:03 PM

50. Certainly not antithetical...

... but arguably, in the present society, a luxury or whim.

The present system is antithetical to a good education, but not necessarily to a useful one.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #10)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:27 AM

31. Can a education system be an outgrowth of a controlled society?

A free society yes, but a controlled society? I say the system is to a large extent what the controllers, not society as a whole, want it to be.

Which begs the question, do we live in a controlled society?

And the question, are those supporting Trump, and yes Bernie too for what ever reasons, the ones that are shedding their shackles against the will of the controllers? Are we truly free to vote or just free to vote for those candidates selected for us?

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #31)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 01:06 PM

51. It is an outgrowth of society, whether controlled or otherwise...

... the most controlled society has presently a need for certain kinds of education, and these are the ones which are promoted and rewarded.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #51)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 01:24 PM

52. My point is that a controlled society will limit the kinds of education to what is

best for the controllers not the controlled. Society as a whole does not benefit nor even have much of a say in what is available. I think that is part of the reason for privatized and charter schools and the war on teachers unions which would further the control of education to just a few controllers.

Education does not necessarily have to limit what you know or technical information but depends upon controlling how you think and use your knowledge.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #52)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 03:34 PM

54. Certainly, but the controllers of society are also...

... an outgrowth of that society. They don't exist in a vacuum. The question would be if they are a necessary consequence of a society, or an accidental one. I am not decided on this question, but it is clear that our society encourages the emergence of controllers who will then seek to control as much as possible.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #54)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 07:02 PM

57. The controllers could be like a tumor, benign or malignant. Lots of ways for them to

manifest themselves or be described. Parasitic comes to mind. Symbiotic is another but probably less useful term. Dependent and interdependent are two more. The list could probably be very long.

But most controllers certainly don't equal a fair representation of a society they control. Only in a true socialist society would they be near equal. Even our own Representatives and Senators for the most part have little in common with the people they represent. They tend to live in a bubble of their own "kind" and have little real interaction with the rest of us. A Venn diagram of our politicians at the national level and those they represent would have very little intersection. They aren't even expected to live among us, which I feel is a huge mistake.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:32 AM

18. K&R.

Some folks in this thread need to note that Borowitz wrote "ignorant," not "stupid."

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 09:38 AM

20. I love Andy Borowitz

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:08 AM

28. Nonsense. Charter schools obviously fixed American education.

The future of American kids has been subjected to market forces, which work every time to cure every ill. Just ask Alan Greenspan. Public private partners, of tax dollars and private profits do the trick every time! American kids are finally ready to compete against the rest of the world. Only morans are worried.




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Response to merrily (Reply #28)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:49 AM

34. When a group of educators gather in a room for a discussion, the first one to say

"how can we make money from this" should be escorted from the room and told to never return.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 11:42 AM

35. Secretary Arne Duncan.

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Response to merrily (Reply #35)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 11:57 AM

40. I think you proved my point, thanks. n/t

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #40)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:06 PM

42. I see your education did not kill your imagination or, um, self-esteem. Kudos.

On the other hand, you went personal after just one non-confrontational post from me consisting solely of a politician' name and title, which is telling.

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Response to merrily (Reply #42)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:11 PM

43. Nor yours, thanks and kudos in return. n/t

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #43)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:12 PM

44. Dude, I neither fired the first shot nor dissed your knowledge. Stop projecting.

Sorry, you don't get to make an entirely unprovoked personal attack AND play the victim card, too.

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Response to merrily (Reply #44)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:21 PM

46. I think you took my post wrong. I never fired a shot nor did I think you did.

I was merely thanking you and offering a return compliment. I thought you were proving my point by naming Duncan as an example of someone wanting to make education a profit oriented endeavor instead of an altruistic one.

I intended no disrespect to you personally and was simply trying to thank you for agreeing with me.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #46)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:28 PM

47. I imputed a different intent to your post. My apologies.

Thanks for explaining.

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Response to merrily (Reply #47)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:33 PM

48. No problem, and I often have the "I know what I mean" thinking and don't explain things concisely.

I blame it on being left-handed and trying to explain things in a right-handed world. But that's probably just an excuse.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:11 AM

29. The MEDIA--RW radio, FOX, and all the rest of the media...

...are to blame for this mess.

For not calling out the lies of the Right in real time.

Mainstream media went from fact checkers (I was in grade school during Watergate), to "impartial" reporters of "he-said/she-said" sound-bites/entertainment. This left people (who have no time, or inclination, to educate themselves) to simply pick the side they were being propagandized toward.

The end of the Fairness Doctrine (Reagan) and media modernization act (or whatever it was called, that has allowed for media consolidation; Clinton) arguably set the table for the mess we are living with today.

My point being, that the 'educational system' despite its problems doesn't deserve credit for this.

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Response to ReallyIAmAnOptimist (Reply #29)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 11:47 AM

36. As my mother in law was wont to say, "It's a combination of everything."

In theory, a good educational system is not about learning lines from Julius Caesar. It's about teaching people to learn on their own and to think for themselves, so that they don't get brainwashed or conned. An easily brainwashed population reflects many problems. Charter schools only compound the problems.

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Response to ReallyIAmAnOptimist (Reply #29)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:16 PM

45. SPOT ON!

My time frame is similar, I was a young adult in the 90s when the media started to sit on its hands and just allow republicans to say the most intellectually dishonest things you can imagine without challenging it. Unchecked they went got more and more bellicose until BHO got elected, and someone reached a new, super hysterical level of it.

We are here today because this country, the media in particular, have spent the last three decades indulging right wing stupidyt, and unchecked they have only gotten more and more worse over time.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 10:28 AM

32. It is not that they are ignorant

it is because they are angry. Trump makes it okay for them to be angry. They hear nothing but the anger, which is why he is dangerous. There is anger in the Bernie camp too, but it is a more constructive anger.

Bernie supporters want to build in the safeguards which will make our government work, Trump supporters want to blow up our government.

I would call Trump supporters more short sighted than ignorant.

Z

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Response to zalinda (Reply #32)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 11:49 AM

37. Short sighted is kind. Not to sound like Agnew, but many of them seem to me like nascent neo Nazis

of negativity. Some not even all that "nascent."

Who knew that, beneath that preening clown like-Barnum & Bailey veneer lay the monster that is currently on the campaign trail?

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:52 PM

49. So they're educated, but don't have "smartiness"? nt

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Fri Mar 25, 2016, 01:36 AM

59. Bumper sticker

If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Fri Mar 25, 2016, 04:21 AM

60. I agree

 

After we defeat Trump, we need to make sure that the Dems also win back Congress. That way, we'll be able to actually get things done.

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