Okay. So what if it's Hillary against Trump? What happens?

[Kablooie]

Will reservations over Hillary be put aside so that Bernie supporters vote for her?
Will people be upset over Bernie not being the candidate and vote for Trump in protest?

And most important, which candidate will the American people decide they want for president?
All those undecided until the last moment voters, who do they go for?

Hillary is the devil they know who will continue to propagate the current, despised, Wall Street controlled system of government at the expense of the public. True or not this is the narrative that has taken hold.

Trump is the devil they don't know who says everything he'll do will be great. He'll fix all the country's problems, bring back jobs from China and Mexico, banish twelve million hispanic workers, rebuild the great wall of china on our border, create wonderful health care for everyone and destroy all our enemies so America will never be challenged again. It will be easy because he's that amazing.

Who will the voters decide should run their country for the next four years?

[Jim Beard]

1. No doubt in my mind that Hillary will win.

[Marr]

116. The polls say she'd be trounced by Trump.

Sanders, on the other hand, is projected to beat Trump soundly.

[Victor_c3]

122. Agree

You also have to take into account that there are voters like me who'll never vote for Hillary. I'll stay home or vote for Jill Stein before I vote for Hillary. On the other side people will come out of the woodwork to vote against her.

I firmly believe that if Hillary is our candidate that we'll lose the general election. If, she happens to win, we still lose. Woohoo!! More of the same shit we've seen since 1981!!

[cwydro]

136. Lol, I thought Bernie supporters didn't believe in polls?

No way will he win the GE.

Now trashing this thread, which just like the other, belongs in GD - P

[Marr]

139. I've never denied polling data, to my recollection.

I also don't trash threads just because they discuss facts that would prefer not to know.

But those two actions are pretty much the same, I suppose.

[Hoyt]

2. She convincingly makes him look like an egotistical dunce. Problem is, a lot of people are

fine with that. I think she'll adapt, handle the racist pissant, and draw enough voters to her. But we'll all have to get behind the Democratic nominee.

[jmowreader]

3. Hillary can destroy his candidacy with one question

"How the hell are you going to do all that, Donald?"

[6chars]

6. actually, that could strengthen his candidacy

the more he can actually achieve them, the worse his ideas are

[jmowreader]

24. Problem is, he can't achieve any of it

He can't build the Berlin Wall on the Mexican border. (The terrain ALONE is enough to stop him!) He can't get the Mexicans to pay for it without going to war against them, and there are two problems with that - Congress wouldn't approve of him going to war against Mexico, and if he tried it without the approval of Congress they WOULD impeach him and throw him in Leavenworth. It's one thing to start wars on the other side of the ocean, but the American people get just a bit touchy when howitzer shells start dropping on Houston!

He can't deport 11 million people. The agricultural lobby and the construction lobby would go Ape Shit if he tried.

He can't slash taxes the way he wants when he's busy fighting the seven or eight wars he plans to start.

[RKP5637]

54. He's hollow suited. He can't achieve all of these lofty things he says to get the idiot factor

vote. He reminds me of a CEO that walks into a failing corporation promising great things, but liquidates and sells off the company as his hidden agenda to make some profit for the shareholders.

[jmowreader]

83. In other words, Gordon Gekko with worse hair

"Why are you going to wreck Blue Star Airlines, Gordon?"
"Because it's wreckable!"

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

85. Donald Trump, the Carrier CEO of politics

Except Carrier isn't failing. Fucking over the employees who have dedicated their lives to make the company successful is "just business."

Haven't we learned from having someone who thinks governing is like running a business, except you can start wars?

[RKP5637]

87. Yep, exactly! So damn sad about Carrier! That was a proud name for years and years, now fucking over

loyal employees. What a place the US has become, ship good jobs out of the country, and then tell people to buy buy buy. It's a recipe for the ultimate disaster. Running a country isn't always about turning a buck for profit.

[elleng]

4. 'If we are going to nominate someone who 50% of our people can't stand,

we are going to lose.'

Marco Rubio

Works both ways, imo.

[TDale313]

5. She may very well lose, and it won't be because Bernie supporters didn't fall in line.

[RKP5637]

66. Yep, I will vote for whomever the democratic nominee is, but that might not be enough. n/t

[RussBLib]

95. GOTV will be more important than ever - n/t

[RKP5637]

104. K&R!!! n/t

[DJ13]

7. Trump is the devil they don't know who says everything he'll do will be great.

A great number of voters believe they know Trump from his idiotic TV series.

Now pit a Democrat who is known by at least the same number of voters from her time as First Lady, but isnt well liked or trusted, against the TV personality in an election destined to be one thats defined by anger at the political system and what do you think will happen?

[RKP5637]

64. Yep, I've told people it's like American Idol, and Trump is the winning star. Many see Hillary

as the SOS no matter what she says. People want drastic change, even if high risk and potentially reckless, but they see change better than the endless frustration they have had with this failing system for 'we the people' going on decades now. Also, Trump is a salesman and exceptionally smart. He knows what he's doing to get the vote. I hate to say it, but I think Trump could well win in 2016 against Hillary.

[davidn3600]

8. A lot of angry people out there...very fluid if you ask me

A lot of people angry for different reasons.

And the GOP right now is setting record turnouts while the Democrat turnout is down. Very concerning.

I am not even so sure it is Trump as a person who these people are necessarily voting for. They are very angry voters pissed off at the government and they just want to say a big "fuck you" to the establishment of both parties and the status quo. If that sentiment spreads to enough of the electorate...he could win.

[GoneFishin]

56. You are probably right. And Hillary is an icon establishment status quo candidate.

[RKP5637]

59. That's a lot of what is going on. People are fed up and saying fuck it, something far different and

high risk is better than no change at all. Hillary represents the same, Obama in a third term to them. They want radical change, I agree, it's not even Trump they are voting for, but the idea of radical change. I think people selling Trump short are missing the psychological dynamics of what is really going on in this country.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

128. Radical change....

It's like they are just asking for trouble. We can't go around changing things in haste without thinking through the consequences of such change. We need to think things through, consider all the options, and make an evaluation on what the best course of action is once we're informed. The American public seems like a bunch of rash, impulsive teenagers these days.

[RKP5637]

129. Most of the presidential hopefuls are an embarrassment to watch debate, a complete lack of maturity

and wisdom.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

130. I agree. n/t

[ripcord]

108. Republicans registered at an alarming rate in Nevada

If that continues we could be in trouble.

[pipoman]

9. In the general election with 2 candidates, the party loyalists are irrelevant....

The only voters who count are the 20% of voters immediately right of center and the 20% immediately left of center. Like it or not, that's the long and short of it...

I don't think it matters who the thug is, I don't think Hillary can carry those voters under any circumstances....sad but true. She couldn't beat a black man with a Muslim name in 08, she is losing to a self proclaimed socialist 73 year old Jewish man now...within our own party....this should be a hint...

[daleanime]

14. And motivating your base....

for a strong turn out.

Yeah, if Hillary fails to lose the primary we're in trouble.

[Stallion]

17. Clinton Is Beating Sanders by 9-10 Points and Beat Trump in 18 of Last 20 Polls

including by 5 points in latest Fox News Poll. Trump has 57% Unfavorable Rating (-21). His favorable are only 37%. On MSNBC latest Polls he has 59% Unfavorable rating. You aren't entitled to make up facts

[pipoman]

19. Polls are a complete waste of time as has been demonstrated over and over..

Surprised anyone pays any attention to any of them....

[RKP5637]

69. Elections are sometimes like the stock market IMO. Sometimes unpredictable and often irrational. n/t

[flamingdem]

10. She'll have to tread carefully, he'll have a field day attacking her

and he'll get more subtle so he comes across as acceptable enough.

[leftynyc]

32. Disagree on the tread lightly

That's the mistake all the republicans made. They were too cowardly to go after donald because he's an attack dog that hasn't been fed in weeks and they were afraid he'd come after them - they assumed he would self destruct. All it did was make him stronger and make them look weak. Hillary will have to attack him HARD on his inexperience, his bigotry, hang the people he's surrounded him with around his neck (roger stone, sarah palin, ann coulter). Whoever our candidate is, they'll have to smack him in the face every single fucking day.

[Calista241]

57. They've attacked him plenty. And the pundits have laid it on him.

The problem is it doesn't seem to matter. Can Hillary pull off what nobody else can?

Trump's going to be spouting that she should be in jail for the rest of the year, anyone else that did what she did would be in jail already, and she being protected by Obama?

She's already viewed at untrustworthy by everyone except hardcore dems, she doesn't have a good response to that.

[leftynyc]

74. What exactly is the crime

she would be in jail for if she were anyone else and how many others are in jail currently for the same thing? And please....the cons have dropped NOTHING on donnie yet at all and neither has the press who have been doing nothing but sucking up to him. Look up Trump University - that's where Hillary can start and there's plenty more where that came from. Hillary doesn't even have to do it. That's what superpacs are for.

[Calista241]

77. There are plenty of people in jail for mishandling classified information

And it certainly appears to a casual observer that that's what she's done. Her defense is that it wasn't classified until after the fact, or that stuff is over classified, but that's a thin line that she'll have to explain, and having to explain your actions is never a good thing for a politician.

And there will be an army of people on the other side saying that she's being protected from prosecution by the AG and the President.

[Hortensis]

97. There really are NOT. Usually a genuine crime

was committed, like passing or selling the information.

[Hortensis]

93. Trump draws at best HALF the voters who

want a bigoted, authoritarian, militarist etc. for president. The Donald is NOT a strong candidate -- he is the strongest of an incredibly, astonishingly, mostly rejected field.

And half the voters who support him are actually using him to give the finger to a party that has betrayed them for decades. I suspect many pubs will become more sober about the general as it comes closer, but I still have my fingers crossed for The Donald.

Hillary will have no problem slicing and dicing him like a big orange squash while coming across like the dignified, pleasant lady people still expect women candidates to be. Her team will probably be studying some of the hostesses on the Cooking Channel for tips on how to keep tidy and avoid the splatter.

[flamingdem]

107. Haha well done

Donald that is when he's cooked in Hillary's casserole!!!

[Hortensis]

111. Why did tuna pop into my head. Gross no matter what.

[flamingdem]

103. You're right, I think Hillary is the right person and we saw her survive Benghazi

She should stomp on Trump pretty delishiously, that might make the populace like her a lot.

[Cassiopeia]

11. It only takes a few close states for Trump to win.

FL, VA, OH..... I could easily see those three going to any Republican over Hillary.

Bernie really is our only chance at winning the GE and that's even assuming the investigations in Hillary dry up and disappear completely by then. With those investigations ongoing there's not a chance Hillary takes it.

[Hortensis]

101. If I thought like you I'd be feeling so sick. I don't know how you

face almost inevitable despair and destruction. Haven't you been through this all before, tho, or is this your first election?

[Cassiopeia]

132. I don't feel inevitable despair or desperation.

I'm feel positive that Bernie can win this primary and go on to beat any of the Republicans running.

However, I am a FL resident and have been politically active for decades. It really will just take a few states to put the Republicans over the top in the GE and Hillary would have a real struggle to win the few that matter the most.

People have been talking about how big SC is in the primary and how the residents of that state will vote. I guess it can show us some info, but in the GE South Carolina is a lost state, period. Neither Hillary or Bernie will take it. Those are flat out conceded delegates in the GE.

It would be wise for the super delegates to make their choices based strongly on swing states and how they fall in the primary. If Hillary can't take those in the primary, she won't in the GE either. Without the swing states we lose.

[Hortensis]

134. I was in an irritable mood when I read your

iteration of the tedious GD-P hostility toward Hillary on the GD forum.

Unless a rack of stage lights falls on her head or something, Hillary Clinton will be the Democratic Party nominee. Bernie's not even half as strong, literally, and his only chance would be becoming the nominee by default.

And if that happened, we might well end up with a President Bloomberg since Trump and Sanders would not only be weak offerings from both sides but would provide Bloomberg a clear, reassuringly mainstream path right up the center.

[Cassiopeia]

137. Wow, talk about despair...

I think I'll just keep fighting for Bernie and not worrying about the endless fail Hillary offers.

Besides, it will take a Hillary type Dem to destroy those at the bottom. I'm in no rush to see that happen.

[flamingdem]

109. Voter irregularity states too, yikes nt

[Cassiopeia]

115. Bush "won" FL by a little over 500 votes.

It doesn't take all that many sitting out an election to drastically change things.

The Democratic party would be advised to focus there decision on how the blue and purple states will vote in the GE. The confederate states that are always dark red should be given very little weight in the choice of our candidate.

[world wide wally]

12. Trump's negatives are higher than Hillary's and everybody knows both of them quite well

[Albertoo]

13. Hillary's opportunity: hit Trump's over-the-top blurbs

- bar entry to all Muslims? Wanna bet on what it will do to US soft power abroad?
- build a wall with Mexico's money? Produce a poll of % of Mexicans ready to support that.
- ad lib, just point how unrealistic Trump's 'ideas' are

[angrychair]

15. The most absurd General Election in History

Of all the candidates, we would have chosen the two with the highest "unfavorable" national ratings to make it into the GE in modern history.

[Hortensis]

105. Nonsense. Hillary is a fine, competent candidate.

I swear IMO far better than people with your relentlessly hostile refusal to see her for herself deserve. I include your counterparts on the right in that.

[TreasonousBastard]

16. What happens is we get our asses out there and vote for HIllary...

while hoping R party regulars stay home, or vote 3rd party.

[xmas74]

43. And third party for the GOP could be a big option,

considering Bloomberg said if Trump is the nominee he'd run. The voters who whine about Big Gulps will stick with Trump but the fiscal conservatives who cannot stomach him might throw a vote towards Bloomberg.

Ive noticed that he's the elephant in the room and no one wants to address it. Think about him vs Trump: he has the money to truly tear Trump apart and has stated he has no qualms doing it. And he'll go after Trump about his bankruptcies, his refusal to pay bills in general, etc. He'll point out that Trump never once had to pull himself up by his bootstraps while he is, for the most part, "self made".

I'm waiting to see if he does jump in. He could splinter the GOP in half and doesn't need a since donation from anyone to do it.

[Hortensis]

110. No, Bernie and Donald far left and right. Hillary is too strong and a MODERATE liberal.

[xmas74]

124. I have heard a few people discuss Bloomberg IRL,

even just last night at a school event. A few parents said that they felt that there were no candidates that they really liked in their party. (My city is very red.) One person mentioned if Trump picked up the nomination that Bloomberg might jump in. The interest was there, enough so that a few said they'd cross party lines to vote for him. Another said he'd cross party lines for the first time ever to vote against Trump, even if it was for Clinton. No one was happy with Trump, with Cruz or even Rubio. One said he was disappointed that Jeb was gone but there was no one else to support in the GOP. There were also comments about not even donating to the party right now.

I don't know. A third party, as long as the candidate is a fiscal conservative, could splinter the GOP.

[Hortensis]

126. Interesting observations, xmas. Sound like the kind of

moderate, sensible conservatives who dont get talked about much. It is obvious that a third-party candidate WOULD splinter the GOP. Like Ross Perot managed to do even as he appeared to be decompensating, squawking angrily about assassination conspiracies, etc. He wouldn't have to draw off much of the vote.

Hillary's opponents here just don't realize how strong she is, not unbeatable, but certainly formidable, and Bloomberg would have to woo a bunch of moderate Dems and independents away from her. Bernie and Trump, tho, would seem to frame a nice, inviting path right up the center for a comfortingly mainstream man....

[xmas74]

141. No one is talking about the fiscal conservatives.

The fiscal conservatives who have voted GOP generation after generation are feeling left out. I've heard it for quite some time with the rise not only of the RR but especially after the huge rise of the Tea Party. These are the Republicans that are educated and work white collar or professional positions. They are not the people on camera yelling about building walls and screaming profanities at rallies.

They don't care for taxes. That's it. Will they vote to ever raise taxes? Sure, I've witnessed it on the local level, as long as it benefits them. I'm on a few committees with them (yep, the Dem single mom who is lower middle class). I hear them talk about how "tacky" the candidates are and how disgusted they are with the nonsense. Trump they complain about the most, though I also hear them talk about how Cruz and Rubio are no better. They talk as though they feel abandoned by their party so bringing in someone who is moderate but fiscally conservative could splinter the GOP.

[Fumesucker]

20. Trump hits Hillary with all the stuff Bernie is too concerned for the future to bring up...

By now we've all seen the videos on Youtube, Trump will have them on your big screen TV 27x7x365, he will condemn Hillary with her own words.

Unlike Bernie, Trump does not give a damn about propriety or saving the Democratic party from itself.

[0rganism]

21. Hillary will eviscerate him in debates, he will stump on how untrustworthy she is

Hillary is an excellent debater but so far appears to be a mediocre campaigner; i hope that will change in time for the GE. i give her the edge on raw ability and experience.

if the investigations into her various maybe-scandals continue, count on DT to use that against her early and often, which will give him an edge in campaigning, but backfire on him if he tries to swing with it in debates. he knows this full well, and will instead settle for making snide detail-free remarks about her "obvious" dishonesty. his edge lies in his media-granted ability to level consequence-free snark at anyone without ever being held accountable.

DT unites the minority vote with the Democrats, but peels away some white independents and independents who have, shall we say, "lingering concerns" about her trustworthiness. i think the overall effect will turn out to be a wash, possible edge to DT since there are a lot of independents who simply won't vote for HRC regardless, and DT will actually be an attractive anti-establishment candidate for them.

name recognition is pretty much a non-issue for either of them. positive advertising will be focused on shoring up their perceived weaknesses by appealing to their historical strengths: HRC will advertise on the basis of her achievements with various aid groups and record of employment, DT will advertise (yes, i think he'd buy ads in the GE) his success as a businessman and dedication to "making America great again" whatever that means. again, a wash.

later in the campaign, the negative ads designed to evoke anger and depress turnout will blanket the airwaves. HRC will be cast as a careless liberal grifter who panders to the special interests who finance her, while DT will be excoriated for his numerous indiscretions & bankruptcies, his proto-racist planks, and his objectifying attitude towards women. edge to DT on this because
1. his attack ads will be confirming what a lot of voters already think they know
2. no one is better than DT at making snarky personal attacks

So far DT has articulated a vision, a fantastical fascistic unevolved vision, which will jiggle the Reagan nerve in a lot of voters.
HRC has yet to really do so, i hope she's got one she's saving for the GE that kicks ass or we have a serious problem. if HRC can present her vision for the country as more attractive than DT's, she wins. i think she knows this already so edge HRC.

overall, i think HRC takes it but it's going to be a nail biter and the senate won't flip.

[CanonRay]

42. What if Trump won't debate?

No debates. Period. He just keeps doing his thing at rallies and "town halls".

[0rganism]

91. that's a setback for HRC, but not a serious one and it can be reversed

people don't seem to pay a whole lot of attention to debates anyway, letting pundits evaluate winners and losers for them so they don't have to

HRC would lose her advantage on the debate stage, sure, but that's mostly relevant to political wonks who already have their minds made up anyway (especially if she's running against DT)

in return she (and her SuperPAC) gets to run ads that make her seem super tough and DT as a cowardly Loser: "Donald Trump is too afraid to debate Hillary Clinton, just think how those foreign leaders are going to feel when they go up against her" etc. he can counter-ad that he won't debate a criminal or whatever, but that effectively begins to move the debates into the ad space where he'll get hit in soundbites during football games - i don't think that's what he'd want.

overall, i'd say that move works in her favor

[Blue_In_AK]

22. I can't imagine any Democrat voting for Trump,

but some might boycott or vote Green in protest, particularly in safe states. The independent voters are the wild card, and since the mood this season seems to be anti-partisan, Hillary might have her hands full, even though she's clearly a more acceptable candidate. It's hard to feel comfortable when Trump is so adept at riling up the masses.

[EdwardBernays]

28. If you spend any time on sites other than DU

you'll find a substantial number of people that have voted for Obama and Bill that would vote Trump. And when you consider that many people don't think that in a Trump vs Clinton GE there would actually be a "progressive" to vote for, their options would be limited... and some of them would vote Trump

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2016-01-08/new-poll-shows-donald-trump-is-a-real-threat-to-hillary-clinton

[Blue_In_AK]

30. You could be right.

These are treacherous times.

[EdwardBernays]

31. It's a bit more complex than that

Hillary is widely disliked and seen as a corrupt and untrustworthy insider, with disastrous foreign policy ideas and a very tenuous grasp on honesty by many people on the right and left.

Those people are either going to hold their nose and vote for her (which describes a lot of DU), vote for Trump (some people on DU - not many - but a significant number in the real world), vote third party (seen as throwing your vote away to most Americans) or stay home (America Classic).

So, when you consider how Clinton will depress the vote on the left, and engage the voters on the right (some of who have waited decades to get a chance to vote against her)... well her chances are slim.

[leftynyc]

34. You didn't mention that donald

also is widely disliked, considered crass, vulgar, inexperienced and actually has a higher disapproval than Hillary. You're making it sound like she'd be running against a saint and like the country has been screaming for a socialist to lead them.

[EdwardBernays]

36. This is where you're mistaken

Trump is seen like that by his detractors, but he's also filling stadiums with supporters.

He has been attacked by the establishment and the media for months and is crushing his party's nominating process.

On the OTHER hand, Hillary isn't even trusted as much as Trump, has endless baggage he can and will easily exploit, and because she has the same core issues as Trump she can't overcome him on those issues. They're way too similar. She'll drive DOWN the vote on the left, she'll drive UP the vote on the right and he'll easily win.

Like cakewalk easy.

And then all of the Clintonites will probably pretend that no one could see it coming.

Oh and btw: Sanders isn't a socialist - and even if he was, guess what:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/300039118/AAN-Poll-of-Progressives-on-Socialism

[leftynyc]

38. I think it's amazing

that you think the American people are going to make a distinction between a democratic socialist and a socialist. They've been tagging THIS President with the socialist label for 7 years and people buy it. There was a poll that said we'd sooner elect an atheist than a socialist.

There is something you don't seem to understand. Hillary (or Bernie) aren't going to be the sniveling cowards the republicans were when it comes to donald. There is a dumptruck of dirt on him they were too afraid to use. You simply have no idea what's coming his way but you can start by looking up Trump University = that case is winding its way through the courts right now. Anyone on the left who stays home because their candidate doesn't win the primary is a pathetic, whiny loser who I have zero respect for and when I see someone here saying it, I'm looking forward to the day they will have to leave DU because that's a banworthy offense.

[EdwardBernays]

40. look at the data

He's been called a socialist by people like yourself for months and months.

He's currently the only democrat beating all the Republicans in national polls.

He's beating Hillary in national polls.

Since he started running polls have shown that Democrats PREFER socialism to capitalism.

As for the dirt.

Hilary has the same dirt on her.

Corrupt: check
Tied to big money: check
Flip flopping on positions: check
disliked personally: check

Now the rub is that Trump is seen by more as honest than Clinton.

Trump is seen as more honest - by a mile - in his own party.

Hillary is going to suppress the vote on the left.

Trump (and Hillary) are going to drive up the vote on the right.

Hillary supporters also think that the endless baggage she has won't matter because it's not true. That is meaningless. He is a MASTER at making innuendo stick. He has so much to work with with Clinton and she's not a competent enough candidate to fire back effectively.

Her attacks on Sanders have fallen flat, and as we've seen they've driven down her own trust numbers and positives. No one believes her. Especially no one on the right. Plus Bill is failing to connect like he used to, and he's often off point... PLUS.. we all know that every single Clinton sex scandal is coming back... and probably some new ones...

Plus all the corruption stuff, which everyone but Clintonites find convincing.

Plus 2016 is the year of the outsider and Hillary is seen as the ultimate insider.

[leftynyc]

45. He's been called a socialist

because that's what he calls himself. Let's not pretend otherwise. I know you think Bernie can win nationally. People thought the same about McGovern. The same fate awaits Bernie. When the cons are through with him, he'll have a hammer and sickle and pictures of Stalin and Mao on every single direct mailer and on the internet. It'll be a disaster.

[Hortensis]

117. Edward either can't or won't learn how wrong he is.

Hillary *Hate is a basic paradigm with people like him here that not even the clearest fact can get through. (*Implacable Profound Disgust, Dislike, and Hostility of The People with Principles for those who like that better.)

But others take note: Over 80% of all the people who voted for BERNIE in both Iowa and New Hampshire like Hillary too! They are pleased with her as a second choice. This is on top of all the people who voted directly for Hillary. This is on top of her consistently polling well with Democrats in general -- for years. Hillary is well liked, and respected, by many.

She is out front of all other candidates of both parties with minority voting groups. And millenials like her "just fine," they're so far just not excited enough about either her or Bernie yet to suggest their vote is going to matter (boy, does it!).

The fact is, these immoderate silly Hillary Haters are mostly from the far left and strong-to-far right. No surprise there, of course.

What this means is that people pushing Edward's message are completely wrong in their view of how the people who would vote Democratic feel about Hillary. And, therefore, of course, all their other assumptions about the Democrats' part of the presidential election are wrong.

BTW, here's something some will no doubt try to turn to work Bernie-the-Savior into somehow: Charles Koch loathes The Donald and wants to bring him down. The other 700 members who pay over $100,000 each to belong to the Kochtopus political action network don't all feel so strongly, but the Loose Flywheel is definitely not their man. Problem is, if they break their usual pattern and get involved to defeat Donald in the primary, he might mount a third-party run, guaranteeing a President Hillary Clinton even more strongly. Just to spite them. It might also tick off the already ticked-off GOP base even more.

[Andy823]

96. Same old crap

You spew this propaganda day in and day out. I guess you think that if you say it enough, sooner or later you will get people to believe you.

Those who don't vote for the nominee, no matter who it is, are probably the same group that didn't vote for Obama, or any other democrat in the last elections. We have had them here on DU for years now spewing hate for president Obama, hate for any Democrat that didn't agree with their over zealous ideas of what a "true" liberal, Democrat, or progressives was, had their own purity test for "real" Democrats, wanted to purge the party of anyone that they disliked, and on, and on, and on. In other words they were here to make trouble and divide DU.

If people are so damned stupid to sit out this election when the Supreme Court is at stake, when any republican would get rid of all the things president Obama has done to help this country go ahead, then they are NOT REALLY progressives, liberals or Democrats.

Since you hero seems to be Edward Bernays, a master of propaganda and manipulation, I guess spreading such BS is OK in your book, but it's not reality.

[EdwardBernays]

99. let me list all of the legit counter arguements you made

1.



that is all.

Now to counter:

- Truth isn't propaganda. You're just so desperate for your reality to be true you can't see what's actually happening around you.
- There's no connection between 2012 and now
- People wanting ACTUAL progressive candidates aren't "trouble" makers. I know the very idea of an actual progressive candidate scares you, but that's what a lot of progressives want.

For the record, progressives don't:

- take millions from companies that they're presiding over while in office
- take million from special interests that have no history of looking out for the electorate
- lie about transparency
- consider billions in weapons sales to a country with a poor human rights record a "personal priority"
- refuse to releases what they've said unless Republicans also do
- promote welfare reform that screwed over the poorest in society
- pay lip service to human rights while taking money from human rights abusers

etc etc etc.

There's a reason why a majority don't trust Hillary and a reason why someone that calls himself a democratic socialist is drawing thousands to his rallies, which the center right democrat is barely able to draw hundreds - people want change, they don't want a political insider, they want a real progressive and they want optimism instead of compromised politics as usual.

As for "stupid" - many many people think that a vote for Hillary in the primaries is a vote for President Trump in the GE... how stupid would a party have to be to nominate their weaker candidate, because an obsessive cult of personality? Pretty stupid.

I would also say, that when you have to stoop to attack my "position," by attacking my username (and mischaracterizing why I chose it) it means you've lost.

When name calling is all you have, you have nothing.

[Andy823]

118. I like this point

"When name calling is all you have, you have nothing." You and the others over on GDP that only post negatives about Clinton instead of posting positives about Bernie, would take that advice.

I like Bernie, but I am pretty damned sure that he would be disgusted with the things that get posted over there on GDP. What do you think? Bernie does a pretty damned good job of explaining his ideas, and telling people why they should vote for him instead of Hillary. He doesn't go ballistic on Hillary and spew all kinds of right wing talking points to win over voters. I think his supporters, the real ones, should follow his example, don't you?

[EdwardBernays]

120. in fact

there's multiple positive posts about Bernie every day...

if you actually pay any attention to Sanders supporters, they spend the majority of their time being positive and "feelin the bern". That's why all the kids are flocking to him... and why they're rejecting Clinton... one fo the reasons anyway.

As for Bernie, he's the candidate... he is going to avoid going negative as he doesn't think that works.. fair enough.... I'm not.

I have no problem calling Clinton extremely corrupt. And guess what, I didn't find out what I found out from people who were just positive.. I found out what I found out when people were upset and they shared information... then I went and looked at the information for myself and I got upset. The point being that the truth about Hillary's behaviour isn't going to come from Bernie, or from rainbow posts about Hillary... and yet that information is spreading like wildfire.

For example.

This video was posted on Jan 29th:

it has 1.3M views, less than a month later.

It also explains why 2/3rd of Democrats don't trust her.

And those numbers are only going one direction.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

88. I can imagine people staying home in droves

She's not going to get people excited enough to vote, especially if it's rainy or snowy that day.

Older Dems will vote for her, because she's the candidate, and we always vote. But I think the turnout will be low for HRC.

Hopefully, the turnout will be low for Trump, too.

[Lizzie Poppet]

102. In my state we vote from home...

...and if the Democratic nominee is Hillary, the top slot on my ballot will be left blank. I've held my nose and voted for a non-progressive presidential candidate for the last time.

And no way my deeply blue state goes to anyone but the Democrat, anyway...

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. You should ask what will independents do?

Right now they don't trust her. Did I mention indies will determine the election, like always?

As to Bernie supporters this exercise only matters in swing states. Places like California will go blue and Mississipi will go red.

And yay, I am not the only one saying this now

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2016/02/unless-the-democrats-nominate-sanders-a-trump-nomination-means-a-trump-presidency

[Ford F-150]

25. Hillary loses...

n/t

[EdwardBernays]

26. Hillary will get crushed

She's got endless baggage, with more coming in the next few months.

She's a poor candidate.

National polls are moving away from her.

Over half of the country have an unfavourable opinion of her.

Almost 2/3 DEMOCRATS find her untrustworthy, and MOST of them haven't heard the worst stuff about her yet.

She's running a scortched earth campaign against Sanders and his supporters, driving down their numbers at the election.

She's a lighting rod for the right and will drive up their voter numbers.

Trump doesn't have to spend money to get endless media attention, much of it positive.

Clinton has a knack for blowing through large sums of money without getting very much, and the press has a laundry list of negatives to ask her about.

She is a tense an combative interviewee when she's back-footed - which is becoming more frequent.

She is not seen as particularly progressive by many Dems, and many Dems think her current positions are... unreliable predictors of her future behaviour.

She's seen as the ultimate insider in an outsider year in politics.

She's seen as taking endless cash from lobbyists and corporations for her campaign, and as corrupt. Trump is self-financing and many many people believe he just says what he wants and isn't beholden to anyone.

Many many voters will see this as a lesser of two evils campaign, and will look at Hillary as the greater evil, especially considering Libya, and Iraq, and all the corruption and distrust.

[Sunlei]

27. I don't think Trump has the stamina or health to even make it through the republican primary,

he's looking more & more, red faced bloated lately. Top republicans don't want him to win either.

Mrs. Clinton would, hands down- eat him alive in a real political debate.

[Cobalt Violet]

29. Trump wins and the dnc thinks they need to move to right more. We can say we told you so.

That's about it.

[GoneFishin]

55. Oddly correct.

[RKP5637]

71. Likely what could happen with the consistently flawed thinking and logic of the DNC and DWS. n/t

[Fairgo]

33. Assuming that she is successful

in avoiding an indictment, she will release her transcripts, we'll all have a good laugh, and then she will be president.

[olddots]

35. what happens ?

we become 50 countries devolving towards techno fuedlasm ?

[quaker bill]

37. I would happily vote for a ham sandwich or a potted ficus

over Trump. Most will get behind Hillary because she is not Trump. Now I strongly prefer Bernie, but if it is Hillary v Trump, I will be at the rallies and wearing her gear proudly.

I was listening on NPR to a big time JEB bundler. I was left with the impression that he was so disgusted with Trump, that even he will vote Hillary if it comes down to that choice.

This riot is not over. Trump can and likely will break the republican party.

[quaker bill]

39. Beating Trump is simple

you just need to have more swagger than he does, and use it to put him in his place. None of the 12 dwarfs on the R side ever had this. I am not sure Hillary or Bernie does either, but one of them needs to come up with it.

This is one opponent where the Clinton victim game will not work. People like that Trump does not play fair. Our candidate needs to be brassier. (There you go again Donald, now the Mexicans have been clear that they aren't building your F***ing wall, so how you gonna get it done?) (What if the radical Muslim terrorists tell us they are Christians just to get in?)

[B Calm]

41. I voted for a republican co-worker for county road com. Like Trump

he made all kinds of promises to get my vote. Found out later after he won the election nothing good ever came. The gravel county road where he lived though was black topped etc, etc. . He was the only Republican I ever voted for and I'll never do that again. That's what worries me about Trump. Like my ex co-worker Trump is saying anything to get elected.

[Vinca]

44. Hillary loses. This is the year of the outsider.

I've been trying to imagine Trump's inaugural speech. It's going to have to include a line I heard out of him this morning - "we're going to fill GITMO with bad dudes." Carve that on your Mt. Rushmore.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

46. Turnout. The Dems aren't turning out for the primaries but the Rs are

Trump could easily win because issues are irrelevant. Even on our side.

[Blasphemer]

47. She would win... the Latino vote would decimate Trump

However, he would get a disturbingly large number of voters - maybe slightly less than McCain/Romney could manage but still far too much considering his platform.

[Warren DeMontague]

48. In such a scenario, i suspect the "more entertaining" candidate will win.

So do the math.

[LannyDeVaney]

49. Sec Clinton will win easily, by as big, if not bigger, margin than Pres. Obama in '12 ...

I can't wait.

[CanSocDem]

50. She loses...

...the USA loses, North America loses, the public interest all over the planet loses.

Please pick the candidate that has a chance to counter 'The Greatest Salesman in the World'.

.

[Jester Messiah]

51. Trump wins.

Conservatives and libertarians vote for him with joy in their hearts. Our side gets a "hold your nose and pray the indictments don't come through" candidate. They turn out, we don't. They win.

[notadmblnd]

52. Trump wins. That's what.

It will have nothing to do with Sanders supporters coming out and voting for Hillary.

It will have to do with record turnout from republicans over riding anything any Democrats try to do.

You saw what happened in Nevada last night didn't you?

[GoneFishin]

53. Hillary can't win a GE. People who think the status quo is ok should decide if they like it enough

to live under a Trump presidency.

[RKP5637]

73. That's what I think, that millions of people want radical change whatever that might bring,

because they are so fed up with the SOS. And to them, Hillary represents the SOS, right or wrong. The DNC and DWS just don't get what is going on psychologically in this country. IMO they are clueless.

[Logical]

58. I do not like hillary, but hate the GOP, so will vote against them. Nt

[a kennedy]

60. I'm not going to make it until the GE......I'm sick, sick that this bozo IS EVEN in the conversation

I'm just not going to make it......I'm sick to death of it all.....

[DesertRat]

63. I hear you

I have a relative who is a moderate Republican. He's an educated ,generally reasonable guy who told me yesterday that he would vote for Trump if he becomes their nominee.

I felt physically sick to hear that.

[doc03]

61. It doesn't look like anyone will beat Trump

at this point. All he has to do say something crazy
and he gets all the media attention. There is nothing he can do that hurts him. I think he is our Hitler.

[RKP5637]

65. That's my fear too. He is brash and egotistical. A win might well feed this side of him to the

point of American Dictator. People say this is nonsense, but if enough people are rallying around him anything is possible. One thing with Trump "if" president, it will be either very good or very bad IMO. I don't think there's an in between. And I think the DNC and DWS are clueless as to what is going on with the psychological dynamics of this election.

[doc03]

70. If that nut gets elected he may burn down

the capital and blame it on Iran or whoever to start WW3.

[DesertRat]

62. Hillary will win

The majority of our country will NOT vote for Trump. I trust that they will choose the most qualified candidate over a xenophobic, racist, sexist pig to lead this country.
#ImWithHer

[brooklynite]

67. First, David Brock (who some people here detest)...

...rolls out the intel file that American Bridge (the only SuperPAC I contribute to) has collected on Trump, his scandals, his outrageous comments, etc.

[underpants]

68. Hillary wins unless she "slips on a banana peel"

Frankly she was probably always going to win.

[Kablooie]

72. My fear is that Dems stay home but Reps don't.

Democrats not excited by Hillary might not bother to vote.

Republicans, on the other hand, would have some enthusiastic voters and many others that hate Hillary so hold their noses and vote for Trump.
There also the Fox News robots who will vote for Trump because they are told to and many who simply vote republican because they don't want Democrats in power.

I think there could be a good chance that we will get a Trump presidency and he will have 4 years to turn America into North Korea.

[Bucky]

75. Most recent polling has Trump beating her, tho he still isn't marketing to a November audience

Clinton will need to shake up the game somehow, figure out how to run against a monkey like Trump

[Tommy_Carcetti]

76. Hopefully she wins.

And if not, I'll support my new Prime Minister McDreamy.

[wiggs]

78. One of the reasons I think people might vote for Hillary is that she

has sharp elbows. She is capable of heaping ridicule on people that deserve it. She hopefully won't bring a knife to a gunfight, which dems have been known to do over and over against a party that is willing to lie, use low tactics. Not only that, she is likely willing to hire people and get surrogates to do even worse.

For decades, dems have tip-toed around issues and overall are not blunt/clear enough about bad gop behavior and policies. I'm sure Obama knows exactly, first hand, what the gop is like....but is too much a diplomat and consensus builder to break out the big guns he's capable of.

A positive campaign will not work against the ultimate salesman, a Limbaugh spawn with no scruples. So it's up to the dems and Hillary to break form and compete...not with lies, but with honesty, bluntness and truth. The case is easy to make...has been for years....

[SDJay]

79. Lots of Problems If That's the Match-up, IMO

1. We've seen already that this is definitely an angry voting populace in the primaries. HRC would have crushed SBS already if this was, say, the 1996 or 2000 election and Trump would've been laughed out of the race.

2. Lots of people - meaning millions - have been waiting obediently for their masters such as Limpballs, Hannity-dunce and O'Liely to unleash them on the polls to finally get back at those Clintons.

3. HRC will have a lot of work to do to sway the soft middle to her side in the GE.

4. GOTV is going to be a huge challenge, as a Trump/HRC campaign is going to be so dirty and slimy it's going to be hard to stomach and people will just be sick of it all by November.

5. Trump will be the opposite of SBS in the GE in that he will not show HRC any respect, he will not hold back on vitriol and he will say anything, no matter how hateful, sexist, whatever, to get under HRC's skin. I fear that HRC can have her buttons pushed in this way and that could also lead to a problem.

Overall, one of the big reasons I prefer SBS is because of what I just posted here. I'm terrified above all else that we're going to see at least 4 years of President Trump, and I can't even imagine those consequences.

[DavidDvorkin]

80. Democratic landslide.

[jeff47]

81. Bad things happen.

Will reservations over Hillary be put aside so that Bernie supporters vote for her?

Some will. Many won't. You have to remember a significant amount of Sanders supporters are not Democrats*. They won't "fall in line" with a party they do not belong to.

*Some have registered as Democrats in order to vote in the primary, but you can't consider such people members of the party. The only purpose of that registration is for Sanders, not for the party.

Will people be upset over Bernie not being the candidate and vote for Trump in protest?

Believe it or not, there will be more than two entries on the Presidential ballot in November. There's also the option of "stay home".

All those undecided until the last moment voters, who do they go for?

The one with the highest net favorability. That's actually Trump. Though I expect a significant number will stay home in disgust.

Who will the voters decide should run their country for the next four years?

None of the above. Which is implemented in our system by not voting.

The result of that is you end up with a "base vs base" election. Like 2010 and 2014. How'd those turn out for us?

[liberal N proud]

82. If those who are supporting BS don't vote or vote for Trump then their one of 2 things

They are hypocrites and never really wanted the ideals they are pushing for or they are just spoiled brats.

I would like to think that they would see that they did not achieve all of their ideals, did not get the candidate that they wanted but that they did indeed succeed in driving some change and they would continue to push for those changes they seek. Hopefully they realize that these changes they desire cannot happen in one election, but that they need to get involved more deeply in the party and drive changes in the rules that they think need changed and push for new leadership and drive the party forward.

I would hope that those thought would ring true with all voters and that they wouldn't throw it all away as a result of one failure.


You are involved in this election, stay involved well after the general election, get on the county and state party boards and become delegates to the party, that is how change is made.

If that doesn't inspire them to vote Democratic, then they need to think about the disaster we had with Bush Jr and then think how much worse it would be with the tyrannical right we have running.

[Elmergantry]

84. Spot on.

" That's a lot of what is going on. People are fed up and saying fuck it, something far different and
high risk is better than no change at all. Hillary represents the same.."

I am hearing a lot of "What the hell do we have to lose" in regards to Trump from people who would otherwise vote more middle of the road/Democratic.

Bernie needs to get that vote. Hillary. will. not.

Just a short while ago Trump was laughed at here at was perceived as the "dream candidate" a Dem would want to face.

Not so funny anymore.

[CrispyQ]

86. After 8 years of a democratic White House, the repubs will be out in droves to vote this year.

With HRC as the dem candidate, they will be even more rabid. The dems, however, I'm not so sure the enthusiasm is there. The new voters that Bernie has brought in have no loyalty to the party & in many cases, have never been politically active before, so I don't think HRC can count on those votes. Enthusiasm on the left has dwindled since 2008, when Obama decided to look forward & give us mandated insurance. Also, everyone's sick of the status quo.

She's gonna have a fight on her hands.

[jwirr]

89. The country goes down the tubes.

[Kablooie]

90. I'm afraid we are already draining down those tubes with or without Trump.

[TeamPooka]

92. We GOTV. nt

[Zorra]

94. I leave the country, go live on a beach somewhere south of the border,

eat mangos, coconuts, and dorado, float in a warm ocean, and drink mojitos and jam with friends on the beach every night.

Because, at that point, all hope is gone; Clinton vs Trump is absolute proof that the United States has gone completely ratfucked insane.

[justiceischeap]

98. Current polling data suggests HRC will beat Trump

by 2.8 points. I was just reading about this.

[Lizzie Poppet]

100. What happens? President Trump, that's what happens.

And may the gods in which I don't believe help us all...

[cantbeserious]

106. IMHO - A Vote For HRC In The Primary Is A Vote For Trump In The General Election

eom

[dr60omg]

112. Either way we probably die

What's the difference either way we are all die. Seriously!
It is a scenario in which not only the American people lose but the entire world loses.

[chapdrum]

113. It'll be "Groundhog Day" yet again

The lesser of two evils: The Wall St. candidate vs. the Mussolini Wannabe.

Over and over and over again: This is the quality of "choice" we get.

[wordpix]

114. two billionaires squaring off & accusing each other of bad deals

We should be talking about jobs and infrastructure, education, environment, income inequality, health care for all, and instead we'll get a billionaire slugfest on how each nominee made so much $$$$$.

The public loses.

[TheProgressive]

119. Trump wins...

[11 Bravo]

121. People get used to saying "Madame President"?

[Kablooie]

133. Now why would they call Trump, Madame President?

[easttexaslefty]

123. I think she'll loose.

I'll vote for her, even tho I'm a Burnie supporter, but I think trump will beat her. Too many are sick and tIred of politics as usual. Just look how well trump & Burnie are fairing.
Anone who looks like an establishment candidate is going down.

[EndElectoral]

125. Trump will win if that's the case.

[ladjf]

127. It's a disaster either way. nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

131. I don't know. But, I think it's safe to say that a lot of people are fed up with Politics-as-usual.

Running an establishment candidate in the face of public demand for a change in the obvious corruption of the establishment is not wise.

[kentuck]

135. Trump goes after the "independent" vote....

..and continues his name-calling and character assassination. "Hillary should be in jail". "She lies about everything". "She is the most incompetent Secretary of State evah...evah!" etc.

Trump will go after the "poorly educated" voters, also. It's a good thing there no "poorly educated" Democrats that he can go after...

Any Democrat that tries to take the "high road" against this character will lose.

He is a greedy, arrogant, narcissistic, lying, tax-cheating, vulgar person and must be called on it.

[madokie]

138. Say hello to President tRump

is what will happen

last night here in Tulsa Oklahoma, as red of a state as they come, 6740 inside with over 2000 outside came to see Sanders on a 24 hour notice. Now that is momentum. Bernie will be who will be running against tRump.

Bernie Sanders will be our next President. count on it.

[Chan790]

140. I think Current Affairs got this one right...

if it's Trump vs. Clinton, we lose the Presidency.

http://static.currentaffairs.org/2016/02/unless-the-democrats-nominate-sanders-a-trump-nomination-means-a-trump-presidency

Hillary is the unelectable candidate in this primary that needs to get out of the race, to clear the field for the good of the Democratic party.