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THIS is what's killing the US economy: (Original Post) kpete Jan 2016 OP
Pretty much. Too many parasites. nt bemildred Jan 2016 #1
And the best part is: forest444 Jan 2016 #5
Affluenza Rider3 Jan 2016 #27
It's the GREED, stupid tk2kewl Jan 2016 #2
What?, the CEO's are not getting enough? liberal N proud Jan 2016 #3
classic kpete Jan 2016 #6
That's just the opposite of what happens ErikJ Jan 2016 #50
uh, clif Jan 2016 #55
No I got it. Funny and true. ErikJ Jan 2016 #61
"I want my fair share – and that's all of it." KansDem Jan 2016 #20
What an embarrassment Rider3 Jan 2016 #28
Open your eyes Plucketeer Jan 2016 #42
If the teabaggers only knew their masters are the Koch heads wordpix Jan 2016 #31
Here's his picture cannabis_flower Jan 2016 #52
If you're not so smart, that's why you're rich NJCher Jan 2016 #53
If stocks keep on falling . . . another_liberal Jan 2016 #4
Stock prices are unrelated to any bail-outs that have occurred in the past ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2016 #14
We will have to disagree then . . . another_liberal Jan 2016 #67
Amazing GummyBearz Jan 2016 #69
This message was self-deleted by its author 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2016 #73
Spot on. Rex Jan 2016 #68
Yes, I think they will have to pay for what they have done to our economy . . . another_liberal Jan 2016 #81
According to this site the average CEO salary is about $160,000 per year in the US. Nye Bevan Jan 2016 #7
Fortune 500 companies prob'ly wolfie001 Jan 2016 #8
Isn't that kind of like averaging the pay of the top Hollywood actors Nye Bevan Jan 2016 #33
When the average salary at WakMart...... wolfie001 Jan 2016 #48
WalMart leaves residents angry after it forced the other grocery store and pharmacy out of DhhD Jan 2016 #59
That link didn't work... vi5 Jan 2016 #9
A little outdated (2013) but gives some idea OnlinePoker Jan 2016 #19
Yeah, I don't know where that poster got $160K as the average... vi5 Jan 2016 #40
Yes laundry_queen Jan 2016 #64
That's irrelevant too. hunter Jan 2016 #10
Does that include all compensation, or just pay? Ikonoklast Jan 2016 #13
I'm the CEO of my leaf raking biz tk2kewl Jan 2016 #18
Richest get stocks and stock options, health insurance, etc wordpix Jan 2016 #35
Wrong! Median, not average dreamnightwind Jan 2016 #77
I still remember the criminals on Wall Street................................. turbinetree Jan 2016 #11
Excellent post! Thanks Duval Jan 2016 #26
I am tired of really tired of the BS----------------------enough is enough.........Thank you .... turbinetree Jan 2016 #34
Si se puede! azmom Jan 2016 #30
(Wado)-----Cherokee.........................Thank you turbinetree Jan 2016 #36
Why didn't the Democratic Party Leadership go after the criminal Banksters? bvar22 Jan 2016 #49
Listen-------------------------I agree-------------------- turbinetree Jan 2016 #54
Most excellent rant. nt laundry_queen Jan 2016 #65
Thank you.....its just infuriates me .......as well as the second video........... turbinetree Jan 2016 #82
K & R Nyan Jan 2016 #12
This message was self-deleted by its author LiberalArkie Jan 2016 #15
So CEO pay is equivalent to 690 minumum wage workers. coyote Jan 2016 #16
They never see it that way when its time to cut jobs... Moostache Jan 2016 #23
Disgusting. Initech Jan 2016 #17
Not really. DefenseLawyer Jan 2016 #21
Globalization of labor has been every bit as bad as expected... Moostache Jan 2016 #29
"... what's really killing the economy (for wage earners anyway) is cheap third world labor." pampango Jan 2016 #32
It isn't trade at all. DefenseLawyer Jan 2016 #41
So how do Germany, Sweden, Canada and other liberal countries succeeded in dealing with the pampango Jan 2016 #44
They turned "made in (name of European country)" into a selling point jmowreader Jan 2016 #56
Germany has a positive trade balance Mnpaul Jan 2016 #63
Indeed it does. It imports way more than we do (30% of GDP vs our 12%). It does export more pampango Jan 2016 #70
They have a very high VAT or sales tax. That helps pay for lots of things that we pay for JDPriestly Jan 2016 #75
The VAT is indeed regressive (like FICA) but if, as in Germany, it funds progressive programs pampango Jan 2016 #85
And the widgets doing the labor are expendable because they are easily replaced without much effort. lonestarnot Jan 2016 #80
oversimplification Facility Inspector Jan 2016 #22
Yes! Thanks for the OP, kpete. Duval Jan 2016 #24
The latter is a factor. The former is meaningless whatthehey Jan 2016 #25
yep this is a red herring Elmergantry Jan 2016 #38
That isn't really the point Cosmocat Jan 2016 #78
That and the for-profit healthcare industry that Shillary defends so passionately. Still In Wisconsin Jan 2016 #37
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jan 2016 #39
Excellent point. jwirr Jan 2016 #43
Parasites and a disease on the workers of the World. SoapBox Jan 2016 #45
And if you make 10 Million per year, you PAY the SAME Payroll TAX as some who makes 118k a year.. vkkv Jan 2016 #46
EVERYONE needs to see this. onecaliberal Jan 2016 #47
It's a big part, maybe 1/3 of the issue. lark Jan 2016 #51
A big law to change is the one where shareholders come first.... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2016 #57
Capitalism is killing the economy RoccoR5955 Jan 2016 #58
Go back to Eisenhower tax rates! at 90%. At least go back to pre-Reagan taxes. YOHABLO Jan 2016 #60
That and the military spending FiveGoodMen Jan 2016 #62
Not so much the pay inequity per se, TrollBuster9090 Jan 2016 #66
K & R RecoveringJournalist Jan 2016 #71
I think it's a gross misstatement to suggest that the U.S. economy is being "killed...." mike_c Jan 2016 #72
And the other side of their coin is they do not pay their share to participate in the giant suck job lonestarnot Jan 2016 #79
You are broke because you make too little, not because someone else makes too much jmowreader Jan 2016 #74
Oligarchs have all but killed the US economy. merrily Jan 2016 #76
Truly. Quantess Jan 2016 #83
Actually demonstrates resiliency of the economy. Lookl what it supports, 10 million millionaires. L. Coyote Jan 2016 #84

forest444

(5,902 posts)
5. And the best part is:
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 10:16 AM
Jan 2016

Most of their kids end up blowing daddy's inheritance on debauchery and/or bad investments.

That's why so many billionaires are for the estate tax: it forces them to keep their personal fortune in family trusts (which are exempt), such that when it's inherited it's much less likely to be misappropriated.

What a world.

 

ErikJ

(6,335 posts)
50. That's just the opposite of what happens
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 02:44 PM
Jan 2016

When you keep hi tax rates on the rich they'll take less pay out of the corporation and keep more in for better pay for their workers and investing in the corp itself.

 

ErikJ

(6,335 posts)
61. No I got it. Funny and true.
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 07:31 PM
Jan 2016

Just pointing out that they wont spend it on their business or anything but usually hoard it in a Swiss bank for purely selfish reasons.

KansDem

(28,498 posts)
20. "I want my fair share – and that's all of it."
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 11:35 AM
Jan 2016

Remember the incident involving the Koch Bros and the Osage Reservation?

According to the transcript of the secretly recorded tape, Charles Koch was chuckling like a six-year old. Koch was having a hell of a laugh over pilfering a few hundred dollars' worth of oil from a couple of dirt-poor Indians on the Osage Reservation.

Why did Koch, worth about $3 billion at the time (now $20 billion) need to boost a few bucks from some Indian in a trailer home? Koch answered:

"I want my fair share – and that's all of it."

Now "all of it" includes a pipeline, the Keystone XL, which would run the world's filthiest oil, crude made from tar sands, down from Canada to his family's refinery on the Gulf Coast of Texas.

--more--
http://www.gregpalast.com/i-want-my-fair-share-and-thats-all-of-it-the-kochs-the-xl-pipeline/
 

Plucketeer

(12,882 posts)
42. Open your eyes
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 12:40 PM
Jan 2016

That sort of prideful greed is EVERYWHERE! The Koch's are just king-of-the-hill of greed. There's a shitload of crafty, wheedling scum they stand on.

NJCher

(35,619 posts)
53. If you're not so smart, that's why you're rich
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 03:30 PM
Jan 2016

A smart person would be bored by this already.


Cher

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
4. If stocks keep on falling . . .
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 10:15 AM
Jan 2016

The fat cat bankers and brokers will soon be demanding another multi-hundred-billion-dollar "bail-out." I say we let mega-banks and investment firms fold this time. Could it really be any worse for the average American than what happened after we gave them what they wanted last time? I doubt it would be, and we might finally even see some of these billionaire plutocrats cut down to size.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
14. Stock prices are unrelated to any bail-outs that have occurred in the past ...
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 11:02 AM
Jan 2016

and unlikely to trigger any bail out in the future.

But yes, allowing multi-national banking to fail WILL/WOULD be far worse for the average American.

 

GummyBearz

(2,931 posts)
69. Amazing
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 11:06 PM
Jan 2016

You nearly made me fall out of my chair laughing. Bail outs unrelated to the stock market... hahahahh. I'm sure thats why the stock market shot to wild heights after the bailouts (ie. quantitative easing) made its way into the system. Corporate stock buy backs didn't happen at all, they used that money to make new middle class jobs... lolol

Response to GummyBearz (Reply #69)

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
68. Spot on.
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 11:02 PM
Jan 2016

Some people just don't like do deal with reality, even when it is crashing down around them. The plutocrats will pay for their greed.

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
81. Yes, I think they will have to pay for what they have done to our economy . . .
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 10:56 AM
Jan 2016

And so should the bought-and-paid-for legislators who have neglected their duty to the people of our country, while they fell all over each other to give the fat cats everything they asked for.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
7. According to this site the average CEO salary is about $160,000 per year in the US.
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 10:19 AM
Jan 2016
Payscale.com CEO salary

So I'm not sure where the $5,000 per hour figure comes from?

wolfie001

(2,201 posts)
8. Fortune 500 companies prob'ly
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 10:28 AM
Jan 2016

They set the "tone" for the nation to follow. WakMart is #1 so there you go. Wage-slaves rejoice!!!

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
33. Isn't that kind of like averaging the pay of the top Hollywood actors
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 12:09 PM
Jan 2016

and claiming that number is the average pay of an actor?

wolfie001

(2,201 posts)
48. When the average salary at WakMart......
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 02:00 PM
Jan 2016

.......qualifies you for Gov't assistance, then I would rethink the line of argument. I mean, WakMart put all of those self-employed mom and pops across America out of business and placed those jobs under one plantation (or 2000 plantations). Right?

 

vi5

(13,305 posts)
9. That link didn't work...
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 10:41 AM
Jan 2016

But does it include bonuses? I know for some very higher ups that I know of their bonuses are sometimes equal to or more than their salaries.

 

vi5

(13,305 posts)
40. Yeah, I don't know where that poster got $160K as the average...
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 12:31 PM
Jan 2016

Pretty much everything I scrolled over on that link you provided was CEO pay in the multi millions.

laundry_queen

(8,646 posts)
64. Yes
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 10:27 PM
Jan 2016

for instance, the company I work for, the CEO has a 'salary' of $300,000 but if you look at 'total compensation'.....it's listed as $2,000,000/yr. Obviously if you use 'salary' for an average you are going to get a different number - and it's not going to give an accurate picture, since your normal worker is not going to have 'extra' compensation over salary or hourly pay.

hunter

(38,302 posts)
10. That's irrelevant too.
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 10:44 AM
Jan 2016

It's like the big agriculture guys always point to the small farmers, don't they, whenever they are criticized, even as they are destroying the small farmers...

It's misdirection.

Same with the big bankers, manufacturers, giant medical conglomerates, etc...

Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
13. Does that include all compensation, or just pay?
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 11:01 AM
Jan 2016

Because pay is most likely the smallest portion of the compensation package.

 

tk2kewl

(18,133 posts)
18. I'm the CEO of my leaf raking biz
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 11:24 AM
Jan 2016

that number is absurd on its face. An accomplished software developer makes that much.

wordpix

(18,652 posts)
35. Richest get stocks and stock options, health insurance, etc
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 12:11 PM
Jan 2016

Worth far more. Are your stats all CEO 's or wall st. CEO 's ? I imagine there' s a huge difference.

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
77. Wrong! Median, not average
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 04:15 AM
Jan 2016

and that site doesn't look too reliable anyway.

Surprised to see such a basic mistake (giving you credit here that it was just a mistake).

Also, in the chart you linked to, where are all the CEO's who make more than 450k? Not shown on the chart at all, odd that.

turbinetree

(24,683 posts)
11. I still remember the criminals on Wall Street.................................
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 10:50 AM
Jan 2016

tripping over themselves, wanting to get that TARP money, 800 plus billion, making millions in a pay check.

Getting taxpayer money from the federal treasury window at .01% loan rate, and over 80 billion a quarter in tranches for over 7 years, and still getting there pay checks.

Charging the consumers with loan rates at 16% to 27% interest, while they crashed the housing markets, and forced people into foreclosures, and not thinking at once, not one iota, that to lend our money back out at 2 or 3%, instead of 12%-27% interest rates, because they were getting our treasury money at .01%------------nope-----------------, not once,-------------------- to say THANKYOU------------ and still getting a pay check.

Rigging the LIBOR system, and still getting a pay check.

And promising that they would HELP those with there homes and loans and still turning there backs on the citizens, and creating more homelessness and hunger, while still getting a pay check.

And a Congress and a presidency and a United States Attorney General that did not once bring these people in and charge them with the poinzi scheme and the criminal acts they committed, they had show and tells in Congressional committees, thats it, to have those feel good pictures, like they cared, they didn't, because these same people were getting money to run for office, to stay in power, to do nothing, but to continue the status quo, and they still got a paycheck.

Just like week, JP Morgan Chase again, remind you, again, paid out 5 billion in there complicit criminal housing mortgage act behavior and still no one went to jail, there stock went up when the market was going down, but they still got a pay check.

Then to top it all off, to further the cycle of hypocrisy, they where at the table this entire time they went in and made "DEALS" for "TRADE DEALS" to cause further erosion in pay for the citizens of this country, trading away the soverienty of the laws and wages, to partners in TPP, CAFTA, NAFTA, and still making a paycheck.

While at the same time as they were sitting in on these "TRADE DEAL" while millions of families and single workers are making pennies per hour when compared to the criminals making millions they are being paid, they support the attacking of the citizens of this country to just to make a profit, and blaming the citizens of the country as being the problem, while still making a paycheck------------------------enough is enough




Honk-----------------------for a political revolution

Democracy-------------------- begins with you tag your it----------------Bernie Sanders to Thom Hartmann and to the citizens of this country

It is about getting a Progressive President, U.S. Supreme Court, Congress, and State and Local Legislatures

Bernie 2016

turbinetree

(24,683 posts)
34. I am tired of really tired of the BS----------------------enough is enough.........Thank you ....
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 12:10 PM
Jan 2016

Honk------------------------for a political revolution Bernie 2016


It is about getting a Progressive President, U.S. Supreme Court, Congress, and State and Local legislatures


Democracy begins with you tag your it---------------------Bernie Sanders to Thom Hartmann





turbinetree

(24,683 posts)
36. (Wado)-----Cherokee.........................Thank you
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 12:14 PM
Jan 2016

Honk-----------------------for a political revolution

Democracy-------------------- begins with you tag your it----------------Bernie Sanders to Thom Hartmann and to the citizens of this country

It is about getting a Progressive President, U.S. Supreme Court, Congress, and State and Local Legislatures

Bernie 2016

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
49. Why didn't the Democratic Party Leadership go after the criminal Banksters?
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 02:21 PM
Jan 2016

...because the Democratic Party Leadership were co-conspirators:

[font size=3] Paulson with Co-Conspirators

Now THIS is bi-partisanship!
[/font]

At the time, the Democratic Party held majorities in the House and Senate.
They preened & patted each other on the back in front of the TV cameras,
claiming to have "Saved the Economy", and for courageously "Taking On" Wall Street.

Whether they "Courageously Saved the Economy" is questionable,
but they certainly protected the Quarterly Profits of their portfolios, the wealth of their friends on Wall Street, and those of the 1% at the expense of the Working Class/Middle Class.
THAT is not debatable.

Hillary voted FOR the the Bailout.
Sanders voted NO.

turbinetree

(24,683 posts)
54. Listen-------------------------I agree--------------------
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 04:47 PM
Jan 2016

I hold everyone that was in on this "deal" accountable.

I hold everyone accountable for there votes on these "trade deals" the dismantling of consumer protections, certain bankruptcy laws, and the promise to take a look at the past ones, and did not, we were promised, and we gave for that promise

And Sanders wanted these/those jerks to be in jail back then and still today, and he stood on his principles, and he stood up for and by his principles in this last debate

Everyone of these jerks and the Wall Street crowd should be at these homes, when someone is having the locks changed on the house --------to see the damage, and then they should be marched to jail-----right then and there----------but they don't care--------------they really don't care------------but if it was them, then they would sing a different tune

(2009------------going forward today












turbinetree

(24,683 posts)
82. Thank you.....its just infuriates me .......as well as the second video...........
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 02:20 PM
Jan 2016

And I do apologize for the next rant before hand ........................I believe in what Sanders said to Thom Hartmann when I heard him say that day .......................

Democracy begins with you-------------------tag your it---------------just like Robert Kennedy said in so many ways .....................

what really gets me upset is in the first video towards the last part, when the Realtor, shakes, the guys hand, and says he is sorry, really--------------------------he was and probably today still, going around setting these people up to take these ARM's'.

This is what these MSM talking heads moderators should be asking to some of these jokes running for office in these debates ---------------I mean really, this issue is not solved.

I just got my Harper's magazine and I am reading a article about Iowa, it shouldn't be called Iowa, it should be called China New US State Number 1 and then, North Carolina as China New State Number 2.

The water in the state of Iowa is just as bad as Flint but its being caused by the farmers with all of the Ag business pollution------------------they just don't care


Honk------------------for a political revolution Bernie 2016

Response to kpete (Original post)

Moostache

(9,895 posts)
23. They never see it that way when its time to cut jobs...
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 11:48 AM
Jan 2016

CEOs are by nature psychopaths...if there were a Geico commercial for them, it would portray them cutting the throats of workers to up the bottom line...its what they do (keeping in mind of course that the "bottom line" includes their pay and golden parachute for 18-24 months after they are hired and before they recycle...)

 

DefenseLawyer

(11,101 posts)
21. Not really.
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 11:36 AM
Jan 2016

It's a symptom of the overall problem, but what's really killing the economy (for wage earners anyway) is cheap third world labor. As long as companies can outsource to the 3rd world essentially without cost, wages across the board will remain low.

Moostache

(9,895 posts)
29. Globalization of labor has been every bit as bad as expected...
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 11:58 AM
Jan 2016

The major problem has always been what Henry Ford knew back at the dawn of the assembly line...production that leads to the workers being unable to afford the product of their labor is ultimately bad economics - unless you are prepared to act as an amoral agent of capitalism and ignore the human cost of your actions in favor of strictly monetary analysis.

The most evil concept in modern society? Fiduciary Responsibility.

Those 2 words give cover to CEOs and business leaders to act in the most heinous ways imaginable - poisoning the environment, poisoning PEOPLE, strip mining resources with no concern for sustainability, destroying entire regional economies for marginal profit increases...externalizing costs, internalizing profit...if there is an odious practice today, you can win a lot of bets by claiming that the CEO will justify them based on "Fiduciary Responsibility"...

pampango

(24,692 posts)
32. "... what's really killing the economy (for wage earners anyway) is cheap third world labor."
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 12:08 PM
Jan 2016

Do we improve that by walling off "cheap third world labor" (Trump seems to have some ideas - "magnificent" walls and 35% tariffs) or by helping the poor become not so poor? (There has been a lot of progress with that in the last 30 years.) Donald does not have much to offer with the latter.

And why has 'cheap third world labor' not killed the middle class in Germany, Sweden, Canada and other more progressive countries? They trade much more than we do, yet have much stronger middle classes and much, much better income equality.

 

DefenseLawyer

(11,101 posts)
41. It isn't trade at all.
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 12:32 PM
Jan 2016

An American company with a factory in Michigan produces goods to sell in the United States then moves the factory to Viet Nam to produce the same goods and bring them back to the United States. Now I understand to a free marketeer like yourself that constitutes "trading" with Viet Nam, but the only thing being traded is labor. It has always been convenient for supply siders to see labor as a commodity, but it hasn't made your policies any less of a failure.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
44. So how do Germany, Sweden, Canada and other liberal countries succeeded in dealing with the
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 12:48 PM
Jan 2016

scourge of "cheap third world labor"? I don't view the policies of those countries as "free marketeer" or "supply side" but as 'progressive' and 'effective' in creating stronger middle classes and much better distributions of income than we have in the US.

If you prefer a policy towards 'cheap third world labor' that differs from that of these countries, what would your policy be?

Mnpaul

(3,655 posts)
63. Germany has a positive trade balance
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 09:00 PM
Jan 2016

Germany is the 3rd largest export economy in the world and the 3rd most complex economy according to the Economic Complexity Index (ECI). In 2013, Germany exported $1.38T and imported $1.15T, resulting in a positive trade balance of $237B. In 2013 the GDP of Germany was $3.73T and its GDP per capita was $43.9k.
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/deu/

and they do it with manufactured goods

pampango

(24,692 posts)
70. Indeed it does. It imports way more than we do (30% of GDP vs our 12%). It does export more
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 11:09 PM
Jan 2016

32% of GDP vs our 9%. Relative to the US, Germany's positive trade balance comes from expanded exports rather than on smaller imports.

and they do it with manufactured goods

Indeed they do. Manufacturing is very strong while Germany wages for manufacturing workers is higher than ours and German unions are much stronger than ours.

Trade makes up over 60% of Germany's economy. Germans have high wages, strong unions and a very good distribution of income. I hope no one tells them that what they do is impossible in a globalized world with a lot of poor people in it.

Trade makes up a little more than 20% of the US economy. We have stagnant wages, weak unions and a very bad distribution of income. Many blame it on a globalized world with a lot of poor people in it.

FDR would not be surprised since he fought for stronger unions, better safety nets and higher/progressive taxes and more trade - kind of like what Germany and other progressive countries have today.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
75. They have a very high VAT or sales tax. That helps pay for lots of things that we pay for
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 02:54 AM
Jan 2016

by taking taxes out of paychecks of the middle class. They also pay high taxes but in Germany they get single payer insurance, including dental, free college, family leave, Kindergeld, free half-day pre-school. At least those were the things they received from the government when I lived there.

A VAT tax is regressive from one point of view. But if you use the income to pay for costs and services for the taxpayers it is great.

The VAT makes the prices of foreign imports and locally produced goods a little more comparable because the tax is imposed on goods made from cheap labor meaning that the purchases of goods whether produced by cheap labor or expensive German labor contribute to the overall economic well-being of the country.

I do not know how Germany will pay for the cost of accommodating so many refugees. That remains to be seen.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
85. The VAT is indeed regressive (like FICA) but if, as in Germany, it funds progressive programs
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 06:55 PM
Jan 2016

it can be a wonderful thing.

I can see that increasing the price of both imports and domestic goods by a VAT might level the wage playing field a little - since the wage component of the final price is smaller - but Germany still imports way more than we do, so the VAT does not do much, apparently, to limit imports very much.

The VAT does seemingly make Germany more export-oriented since the VAT is refunded when goods are exported rather than purchased in Germany.

 

lonestarnot

(77,097 posts)
80. And the widgets doing the labor are expendable because they are easily replaced without much effort.
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 09:44 AM
Jan 2016

whatthehey

(3,660 posts)
25. The latter is a factor. The former is meaningless
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 11:50 AM
Jan 2016

to the economy.

Homework for anyone who disagrees. Pick your most hated company. Walmart, Monsanto, Pfizer, Raytheon, whoever. Find what their CEO makes. Divide it equally amongst all employees. Forget who referees executive disagreements, represents the company to the board and shareholders and all that. Pretend it can be done for not a red cent.

Now how much more does each employee get to spend and what difference would that make to a fourteen digit economy like ours.

Minimum wage boosts at a meaningful level would be essentially by definition be a 100% consumer sector volume increase because anyone working at that level has unmet needs. We could cut CEO pay in half and most of it would simply sit in retained earnings or, if legally mandated to expand payroll, would either be wasted at multiple points on the MPTC ladder and/or cause a barely noticeable rise in hourly pay.

 

Elmergantry

(884 posts)
38. yep this is a red herring
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 12:22 PM
Jan 2016

Proven by simple math. Service jobs dont pay as well as manufacturing jobs. We have outsourced manufacturing.

Cosmocat

(14,558 posts)
78. That isn't really the point
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 09:18 AM
Jan 2016

The basic math is part of it ...

The bigger issue is that kind of bizarre disparity is a reflection of the value system.

 

vkkv

(3,384 posts)
46. And if you make 10 Million per year, you PAY the SAME Payroll TAX as some who makes 118k a year..
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 12:48 PM
Jan 2016

And if ALL of your income is capital gains, like the Romneys of the world - you pay only 15%...

Sick Sick Sick

onecaliberal

(32,777 posts)
47. EVERYONE needs to see this.
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 12:50 PM
Jan 2016

Honk................

Get on the bandwagon. America needs to wake the hell up.

lark

(23,061 posts)
51. It's a big part, maybe 1/3 of the issue.
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 03:02 PM
Jan 2016

The other 2/3 is the loss of unions and moving so many formerly good paying jobs overseas. Who do all these changes benefit, yep the same owners/CEO's etc. that are already way over-paid

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
57. A big law to change is the one where shareholders come first....
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 05:42 PM
Jan 2016

Everyone has heard "the customer is always right" and "customers come first" but that's not actually true.

By law the shareholders come first.

It doesn't matter if you have a good quarter or a bad quarter. The shareholders are to be paid no matter what. To top it off Wall Street expects you to show ever increasing earnings no matter what the rest of the economy is doing and will lower the value of your stock to punish you for failure to meet the goals they dictate. Eventually, the demand for more and more leads to cutbacks elsewhere. Employee benefits and then pay and then product quality are sacrificed to the god of ever increasing profits.

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
58. Capitalism is killing the economy
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 06:02 PM
Jan 2016

as well as the environment.
Read some Richard Wolff and see what I mean. He explains it quite well in his last economic update. The economic system has failed, and they keep trying to find scapegoats. Capitalism is the real culprit.

 

YOHABLO

(7,358 posts)
60. Go back to Eisenhower tax rates! at 90%. At least go back to pre-Reagan taxes.
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 07:29 PM
Jan 2016

Just thought I'd add that. Like it's ever going to happen. When pigs fly.

TrollBuster9090

(5,953 posts)
66. Not so much the pay inequity per se,
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 10:50 PM
Jan 2016

Not so much the pay inequity per se, as the ATTITUDE that the average worker is only worth 1/1000th as much as an executive. The economy always does poorly when work is undervalued, and 'style' is overvalued.

71. K & R
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 11:11 PM
Jan 2016

Sadly, I am very worried that nothing will change without physical force. I hate saying that. But I truly don't know how the extremely powerful will ever willingly give up their absolute control. And if, God forbid, that day ever comes then we will have to deal with the fact that they have been feeding constant lies to gullible conservatives who will willingly do their bidding against those anti-Muhrican libruhls.

This TRULY worries me.

mike_c

(36,269 posts)
72. I think it's a gross misstatement to suggest that the U.S. economy is being "killed...."
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 11:19 PM
Jan 2016

The U.S. is one of the wealthiest nations on Earth. Our economy is robust and vigorous, although arguably in shakier shape than it was when the U.S. was a manufacturing powerhouse. Nonetheless, our economy isn't being killed-- it's being raped. It's being harvested. We don't lack economic vigor-- the money is being redistributed to the wealthiest individuals and corporations. There's no shortage of wealth in the U.S. Our problem is inequality, plain and simple. We don't need a new economy-- we just need to regulate the one we have and reduce the number of people who have more than their share.

 

lonestarnot

(77,097 posts)
79. And the other side of their coin is they do not pay their share to participate in the giant suck job
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 09:37 AM
Jan 2016

jmowreader

(50,528 posts)
74. You are broke because you make too little, not because someone else makes too much
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 02:48 AM
Jan 2016

I know Class Warfare is a popular meme, but it's not really true. There is enough money to pay both CEOs and workers well. To me, graphics like this are kinda like putting a picture of a Trabant next to one of a Corvette and saying, "Look how terrible German cars are!"

The real thing that is killing the economy - if indeed it IS being killed - is far deeper than you can put on a Facebook graphic. And lest you believe I'm just ripping on the left for this, I guarantee there's a teabagger sitting at home in front of his Cheeto-smeared keyboard making a graphic showing how welfare or high taxes are to blame for the state of the economy.

All of these things are responsible:
1. We have become a net importer of manufactured goods. Our major exports are commodities...which people in other countries turn into finished goods and send back for profit. When "America was great," America shipped the steel you needed to make a car AS a car. Now we ship it as iron ore, and let someone else turn it into a car.

1a. I better point out the wealth-creating industries of mining, forestry, agriculture and manufacturing.

2. Our internal economic activity revolves around selling services to other Americans - in other words, passing dollars between ourselves. Eventually someone's going to buy a sandwich with some of those dollars, taking them out of circulation entirely. We need massive exports of finished goods to increase the money supply - and "massive exports of finished goods" is exactly what we no longer have.

3. We practice "checkbook innovation." Think hard: when was the last time someone introduced a new brand of anything that wasn't a tech device? (Splitting your company into three pieces and giving each piece a new name doesn't count.) An example that comes to mind: The WD-40 Company wanted to sell soap to the people who were already buying their oil. Fifty years ago, WD-40 would have bought a soap machine and introduced "WD-40 Mechanic's Super Soap"...which, considering how much people love WD-40, would have done very well in the marketplace. It's not 50 years ago. They bought the Lava Soap line. About as good as it gets is adding new products to existing lines...and, once again, they're much more likely to just buy something.

4. Long-term planning is now three months out. In the 1950s, people planned YEARS ahead.

5. The stock market has NO tolerance for sales slowdowns, even normal cyclical ones. To make Wall Street happy, companies will shed employees like a Labrador Retriever in April if sales drop a tenth of a percent. In the old days, "this too shall pass" was kind of a corporate mantra: keep those workers on the payroll, even if you only bring them in half-days, because you will need them again.

6. They also have no tolerance for what they consider overspending. Could...oh, Walmart...pay $12 an hour to all its employees without sending prices through the roof? Probably, but Wall Street wouldn't like it. So they won't do it.

What America needs most is a massive "insourcing" effort. We HAVE to bring manufacturing back to the United States - and none of the candidates are talking about it. Instead, we get Hillary wanting to have people pass money around 50 percent faster than before, and Bernie wanting to pass it twice as fast. Without more wealth-creating industries, we're screwed no matter who we choose as president.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
76. Oligarchs have all but killed the US economy.
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 03:08 AM
Jan 2016

"Oligarchs" include the rich who wield political power; politicians and those who pull their strings, most of whom are rich in both cases; and media moguls and those who do their bidding.

Anyone who thinks diddling the minimum wage by another $7.75 over a period of years is going to fix all that needs to think again. Sure, it's something, but it's far from a fix. Oh, and a minimum wage increase does not = a cap on executive compensation, so the gap can continue to expand. Morever, despite all the wage increases since the 1970s, buying power has not increased appreciably because prices go up.

To quote the refrain Kucinich used in his speech at the 2008 Democratic National Convention, "Wake up, America."

Of the candidates for POTUS, all give at least lip service to increasing the minimum wage. Only one dares address wealth inequality. Only one turns away from big donors, giving all the power in his campaign to small donors.

L. Coyote

(51,129 posts)
84. Actually demonstrates resiliency of the economy. Lookl what it supports, 10 million millionaires.
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 06:11 PM
Jan 2016

Exceptiong suicides and natural causes of death, people don't just disappear if they are poor. No, they struggle even harder to support their loved ones. Economies are resilient because people work to survive, they have to do so no matter what. This is so simplistic, it isn't really truth.

Two fallacies there:

* The US economy isn't being killed, it is being exploited to the degree possible by the top one million.
* There is no US economy. Global economies are too interdependent to call the US an economy, that's too arbitrary. Much of the world is also exploited to keep the same top millions in yachts and mansions and to pay the servants ....

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