Norway teaches migrants about respecting women

[FrodosPet]

http://www.thelocal.no/20160108/norway-gives-migrants-courses-on-respecting-women

Published: 08 Jan 2016 20:24 GMT+01:00

Sexual advances or just friendly gestures? In a bid to prevent violence against women, Norway is offering asylum seekers courses in how to interpret mores in a country that may seem astonishingly liberal to them.

~ snip ~

"Our aim is to help asylum seekers avoid mistakes as they discover Norwegian culture," explained Linda Hagen of Hero, a private company that runs 40 percent of Norway's reception centres for asylum seekers.

~ snip ~

After what she called a "wave of rapes" committed mostly by foreigners in the southwestern town of Stavanger between 2009 and 2011, Hero launched a course at some of its centres that touches on cultural differences regarding women.

~ snip ~

While on a much smaller scale than the Cologne assaults, other incidents have been reported involving foreigners on New Year's Eve in Helsinki and Zurich, in countries that have opened their doors to migrants to a much lesser extent than Germany.

~ snip ~

[philosslayer]

1. This appears to be a positive step

Kudos to the Norwegians.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

9. The subtext of these classes is that THE ENTIRE CULTURE has to be taught what is appropriate.

[bklyncowgirl]

19. No, just men of a certain age and background.

Do you think that women in Western Europe should have to conduct themselves by Middle Eastern standards in their own countries? Of course not. These guys have brought this on themselves and unfortunately a whole bunch of decent Muslim men.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

21. I think we're in more agreement than you may suspect.

[Warpy]

27. Some of the refugees have been educated in Europe and the US

and they have a good idea of how to behave since they got their faces slapped a lot until they learned as college students.

Some did not, and will find the classes beneficial, learning that the visual signal for "whore" is very different in Norway than it was back home in Syria.

It's still going to be a difficult transition. The cultures are extremely different, even though the cities in Syria were quite westernized before the civil war.

[nomorenomore08]

124. It is a difficult situation all around, to say the least. No one could expect it to be smooth and

free of problems. But as I'm sure you'll agree, one can recognize this fact without painting refugees as a whole with the same brush as the minority who are violent criminals (meaning sexual assault, mainly).

[GummyBearz]

2. It shouldn't be a hard concept to grasp, but they are about

700 years behind the rest of us. A decent crash course would be:

"Do you like to get kicked in your balls?"
...
"Then don't touch women in their woman areas. Welcome to the 21st century, here is your certificate"

[The2ndWheel]

13. What we call time isn't that objective

[virgogal]

104. Great response.

[mwrguy]

3. Islam teaches respect for women

But these classes can surely help prevent misunderstanding.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

4. "Misunderstanding"

Oh, so that's what we're calling sexual assault this month....

[Aerows]

38. That was my first thought

when I read that reply. Hello, here is me slapping the shit out of you if you invade my personal space and have the idea that I find it remotely attractive that you put your hands on me.

These jackasses are not going to survive if we bring them in. Send a handful of them to the South, and they will be shot within a week because they have no idea how to control themselves among civilized people.

If that sounds anti-Islamic, my apologies, but let's face reality. Islam is a religion that is very oppressive to women, and Western women aren't going to put up with that shit.

[FrodosPet]

5. A lot of people need to learn to respect people. Period.

Left, right, up, down, Christian, Muslim, Jew, whoever, whatever...

If you go around with the intent of fucking up other people's world for whatever bullshit reason: Sky daddy says so, boys will be boys, I'm poor and frustrated, I'm rich and bored, I'm jealous of those brown/white/whatever people, you are committing EVIL. Not because some set of rules in a religious text said so, but because common and accepted principles of behavior among civilized people said so.

As to specifically regarding Islam, I am not a scholar, but I've spent a lot of time studying the history of Islam and its relationship to the west. I've read the forbidden "Thou shalt not post these verses on DU" parts of the Qu'ran and the Hadiths, as well as the many uplifting ones which are key to positive interpretations of Islam and interactions with non-Muslims.

My hope is that Radical Islam and Radical Christianity can both experience a reformation before it is too late. Until that time, as ugly and inconvenient as it is, as easy as it is to blame people of Islamophobia or Xenophobia, bad behavior which is rooted in religion must be identified and condemned.

Yes, we need to be respectful towards, even better, friends with peace-loving Muslims who do not seek to obstruct or harass non-adherents. We need to find common ground - the survival of our species - and work out from there. But saying that there is no reason to identify and mitigate a core motive / enabler of violence is destructive to the process of stopping human predation. It does not stop Islamophobia, it helps feed it.

[nomorenomore08]

22. "We need to find common ground - the survival of our species."

Thanks for getting to the point.

[Quantess]

6. Muhammed had a sexual relationship with a 9 year old girl.

That's SO very respectful.

[Scootaloo]

28. And every Muslim is Mohammed?

Man, I wish every christian were Jesus, and every Buddhist were Siddartha.

[Coventina]

32. No, Mohammed is just the founder of the religion, and their scripture

is the Qu'ran which are Mohammed's purported messages from Gabriel.

Kinda throws the whole religion into a bad light for those of us who are feminists.

[Scootaloo]

37. So every Muslim is Mohammed? Again, same question.

You're using a guy who's been dead for fifteen hundred years to define people alive today.

[Aerows]

39. I'm going to have to disagree with you here, Scootaloo

Women are rightly frightened of sexually aggressive men.

I'm not going to apologize for feeling uneasy around Middle Eastern men that are ogling and getting handsy. What I will do is slap the shit out of them, and I do not feel the slightest bit bad about my unwillingness to be sexually harassed.

[Scootaloo]

45. Sure, I get that. But that's not what's being talked about here

We have two posters basically arguing that all Muslims are defined by Mohammed. Or, more specifically, defined by hadith about Mohammed.

[Aerows]

49. You can't "right, but"

on this one.

I have encountered Middle Eastern men. I am a petite blonde.

I've been there, done that, and I am sorry to say that the fantasy that these Middle Eastern guys just need to be exposed to Western sensibilities and they will suddenly abandon the 20 and 30+ years of conditioning that women are property is just that: a fantasy.

Take in families. Men and women with children are invested in building a solid foundation.

Taking in 75% fighting age men, with nary a woman wanting to be with them, and if you can't see what the future of that situation is going to be, you don't want to see it.

[Scootaloo]

51. I can when you're the one trying to change the subject in an effort to protect bigotry.

Quantess and Coventina are arguing that an act by a man who's been dead for fifteen hundred years is a core defining feature of all muslims. That's just rank islamophobia. It's absolutely no different than the bigots who use the Talmud to do the same against Jews.

And now. You've "encountered" middle eastern men? Okay. How many? There's about a million Arab-American men in the US, 750,000 Persian-American men, 250,000 Turkish-American men, and a decent sprinkling of other middle eastern ethnic groups.

They're all wannabe rapists who see you as property? Not just in this country, but everywhere else? I suppose all the white men you've met in your life are nothing but pure respect. and the black men. And hispanic men. And Asian men. And all the men you've met but not known where they've come from. It's just the middle eastern ones who have treated you poorly?

You've encountered assholes. Assholes transcend ethnic groups. But evidently confirmation bias does not.

[Aerows]

56. I'll just go on protecting myself from

sexual assault and sexual harassment no matter who decides to tell me I'm a bigot.

I'm a big fan of staying out of situations that could get ugly. It has served me well.

[Scootaloo]

60. Thing is you're equating such abuse with an ethic group(s).

[Aerows]

64. I don't walk naked down the street at midnight, either

nor do I leave my purse sitting around wide open and unattended in a crowded building.

Common sense will tell you that people raised in an extremely patriarchal society (not people that are raised in the US in our culture, or in Europe) are going to have problems along the way until they are acclimated to our societies mores.

Furthermore, an influx of young men of fighting age that do not speak the language, have few employment prospects and few opportunities for marriage and family, what do you suppose is going to happen?

And that is without introducing the element of a different religion, different cultural mores and for some, a hostility towards the West.

[Scootaloo]

68. I don't recall claiming you did.

I'm pointing out that you're smearing an entire class of people based on your personal interaction with some minuscule number of them.

Common sense will tell you that people raised in an extremely patriarchal society (not people that are raised in the US in our culture, or in Europe) are going to have problems along the way until they are acclimated to our societies mores.

Furthermore, an influx of young men of fighting age that do not speak the language, have few employment prospects and few opportunities for marriage and family, what do you suppose is going to happen?

And that is without introducing the element of a different religion, different cultural mores and for some, a hostility towards the West.

Ever been to the United States? 350 million people. Apparently every last one of them descended from anglophonic protestants from the more pastoral parts of England, who one and all came over with their extended families right there with htem.

or at least, so some arguments I see would lead me to believe.

[JudyM]

66. It's not about genetics, it's about culture. And just look at their culture. It's obvious.

And they are coming from a culture where these misogynistic views are very potent.

[Aerows]

70. Precisely my point, JudyM. n/t

[JudyM]

73. Right, supporting your position as not anti-ethnic.

[Aerows]

79. Exactly -It's cultural,not ethnicity

There are plenty of white redneck men that aren't fit to be around, either

[JudyM]

116. That's for sure.

Do you live in an urban or rural area? I live near DC and feel grateful to be someplace that's fairly civilized in that way.

[Aerows]

119. Deep South

Suburban, on the Gulf Coast. So yes, I am highly familiar (unfortunately) with idiots, however on the Coast, you also have people that are far more liberal than people in northern parts of Gulf Coast states.

My state is stone broke, though, so I don't foresee a huge push for refugees to be settled around here.

[JudyM]

122. I lived in Atlanta in the 80's and it was a similar mix. 20-30 minutes out of town in you're in

a whole new territory. A whole different game. Really need to have your guard up around men there.

One of the great things about Bernie's campaign, in my view, is that he's raising liberal issues in a context of the opposing voices that are so extreme as to seem like caricatures of uncaring, money hungry narcissists. I'm hoping this stark contrast means that going forward the younger generation of voters even in rural areas will be more informed than the way it's been. Or at least among those of them that are reachable.

[hifiguy]

106. And incredibly deep-seated.

It's been the norm for a few hundred generations.

[840high]

126. ...^ that +{100

[nomorenomore08]

123. No one could reasonably disagree with your basic point RE: staying safe.

Even as a fairly large (5-9, 210) male, I tend to keep my guard up around strangers. I did live in a pretty bad inner-city neighborhood for a few years at one point, which I'm sure has only increased my natural vigilance.

Now, that said, I personally can't justify judging a whole segment of humanity by its worst members. Just because I've been robbed and/or threatened by a few black men - and I have, truthfully - doesn't mean I see fit to condemn black males in general as criminals or "thugs." One can recognize social problems while still being careful not to paint with too large a brush.

[Coventina]

61. Every Muslim is connected to Mohammed, just as every Christian is connected to Jesus.

How can they not be?

Your argument does not make any sense to me.

[Scootaloo]

65. Is every Christian Jesus? Is every Buddhist Siddartha? is every Jew Moses? Is every Mongol Temujin?

In order of appearance, no, no, no, and no.

You would not define any of these people by those historical and religious icons. You would of course understand, probably very intimately, that Christians usually have very little in common with Jesus.

[JudyM]

67. Not embodiment, but what adherents aspire to, or at least think is acceptable.

[Scootaloo]

74. Think so?

do Christians aspire to kill Jews? 'cause that's what Jesus does in revelation. Are the Mongol couple i've hosted likely to lop off my head and add it to a pile outside ulaanbataar? 'Cause that's what Temujin did.

You're trying to define an entire breadth of humanity exclusively by your own perception of the one thing you know about them.

[FrodosPet]

99. Where in Book of Revelation is that?

"do Christians aspire to kill Jews? 'cause that's what Jesus does in revelation"

Got links? I'm not saying Jesus didn't, I just don't remember it.

[Scootaloo]

101. It's pretty much the entire book

Which is about Jesus' triumph over the Antichrists and agents of Satan - which in the context of the writing, are Jews who do not accept Jesus as their messiah. 144,000 Jews will be spared, having accepted Jesus as such, numbered by tribe (Rev. 7:18). Then you've got Revelation 19, talking all about Jesus riding forth at the head of the armies of god , stroking down nations with a sword and ruling htem with an iron scepter, and spreading god's wrath like wine from a press (an unsubtle allusion to lots of spilled blood.)

In all fairness, Revelation Jesus does end up just killing everyone (and this is the happy ending, because the "beleivers" go to ehaven) but he does start with the "Synagogues of Satan" - i.e., "apostate" jews who do not take jesus as messiah.

[Coventina]

72. Of course not, and I never said believer = figurehead.

Just about every believer of every religion has very little in common with the founder. They may aspire, or they may be hypocrites, each has to be taken on a case-by-case basis.

My complaint in this case is that the founder of Islam thought that having a child bride was OK. I find that appalling.
And to say that can be completely treated as a separate issue from the religion he founded, particularly when he married her AFTER founding the religion, is completely illogical.

[Scootaloo]

87. That's the argument presented, though.

That something Mohammed did back on the 8th century defines what Muslims do today. That every Muslim, by being a Muslim, is guilty by association stretched over fifteen hundred years.

Yup, Mohammed married a child. We can't pretend, though, that this was something unique to Mohammed, or isolated with Islam. it was a political arrangement to bring the Hashim and Taym families (Mohammd and Abu Bakr, respectively) closer. The Hadith argue on the age of Aisha at consummation, anywhere from nine to nineteen. There are arguments that her age may have been dropped in the later hadith to "prove" her virginity at the consummation, due to a dispute of succession.

Patriarchal 8th-century tribal marriage traditions for royalty are indeed in full force when we look at a tribal marriage between "royal families" in an 8th century patriarchal society.

[Coventina]

92. If nothing Mohammed did back in the 7th century defines what Muslims do today, what is the point?

Why is there even a religion?

And, I never said having a child-bride was unique to Mohammed or isolated to Islam. But when the LEADER of a religion does something, it carries much more weight than if it's just the Average Joe.

[Scootaloo]

93. Wow.

So, when I tell you that Mohammed's marriage to Aisha had no real impact on the practice of the religion, you conclude that i have said nothing he did has an impact on what Muslims are doing today? Interesting either / or fallacy, there. That all Muslims MUST be defined by Mohammed marrying a child fifteen hundred years ago, or the absurdist argument that nothing he did mattered.

Tell me. How old was Zipporah when she was given to Moses? How old was Michal, when David bought her with a big pile of foreskins? How old was "Pharaoh's Daughter" when Solomon took her to seal a treaty? The Bible doesn't say. Do we just politely ignore the prevailing cultures of those times (despite acknowledging that a woman can be bought with a heap of foreskins!) and assume al lthese women were 20 or older?

[Coventina]

94. YOU are making the claim that Mohammed's life choices have no bearing on the religion he founded.

I find that to be an insupportable argument.

As for all the Hebrew scriptural examples you give, I find those equally abhorrent.

I find all the Abrahamic family of religions to be deeply misogynistic, racist, homophobic, and violent to the core.

[Scootaloo]

98. You are arguing that Mohammed's marriage to Aisha is some sort of cornerstone in the Islamic faith.

I'm telling you that it's simply not. Mohammed's thirteen marriages are simply not a major feature in the faith. All but one of them (the first, to Khadija) were political marriages made in effort to unite the Hejazi tribes under one banner after twenty years of mutual asskickings. This includes his marriage to Aisha.

[Coventina]

100. Never said it was a cornerstone. Just saying it's indicative of the role of women in Islam. n/t

[Scootaloo]

108. When you gave me that either / or fallacy, you made it pretty clear otherwise

either Aisha's marriage to Mohammed is a central event in Islam
or nothing Mohammed did has any impact on Islam.

Also your initial argument was "every Muslim is connected to Mohammed, just as every Christian is connected to Jesus." which is quite a bit different from the much more vague, wibbly-wobbly take you're going with in this post.

if you were curious, Aisha turned out to be something of a badass, and beside her father Abu Bakr, was probably the most influential political figure in the caliphate after Mohammed's death. she was central to her father becoming caliph and had a major hand in the compilation and "canonization" of the hadith. Her marriage was creepy but not hugely atypical for the time or culture, but as a person she was pretty exceptional.

Look, coventina, it's pretty clear that you just don't have a lot of actual information here. I'm going to guess that you're mainly drawing off of bits and pieces of information you've picked up here and there, now and again, and haven't actually conducted any investigation into the subject. That's fine, it's not exactly a subject that a lot of people in the west are experts in (I'm not, I just read a lot.)

The problem with that is there's an actual industry out there to gin up hatred against Muslims from any and every angle. Lack of better information means that these efforts often become the central "source' for what Americans know about Islam and Muslims. Aisha's marriage to Mohammed is often-cited as an "example" of how awful Muslims must be. But in truth it's no different than the same sort of effort to pick bits and bobs out of the Talmud to spread hate against Jews.

[Coventina]

110. The either / or construct is yours, not mine. I never said it was one or the other.

What I am saying is that as the founder of Islam, what Mohammed did was important in guiding his followers as to what is acceptable behavior.

And, yes, every Muslim is connected to Mohammed and every Christian is connected to Jesus. I don't understand how it can possibly be any other way.

That's like saying a Buddhist has no connection to Buddha.


There is simply no relevance to how Aisha turned out in later life. Many people have overcome being raped as a child, I have nothing but kudos for them, but it doesn't excuse their rapists.

I don't care if there is a movement to gin up hatred against Muslims. As a feminist, I am against forcing underage girls into marriage, period.

[FrodosPet]

112. "Mohammed's thirteen marriages are simply not a major feature in the faith"

The founder of Islam's wives were political tools? And this is positive towards fundamentalist Islam's opinions of women because?

[Scootaloo]

121. I wasn't aware I was trying to cast a positive light.

And none of the posters above were saying anything about "Fundamentalist Islam," but Islam as a whole.

Yup. After Khadija died, Mohammed married for political reasons. Assurement of truces, treaties, allegiances, that sort of thing.

[JudyM]

117. "bought her with a big pile of foreskins?" this is crazy enough to be a new DU meme.

[Scootaloo]

120. Yup. That's how David tried to acquire his wife, King Saul's daughter Michal.

Saul sent him out to kill a shitload of philistines and bring back their foreskins, because king Saul was a little fucking insane. so David did that because he was kinda fucking nuts, too. And then Saul went back on his word, and there was some more drama.

The whole story like like an ancient Israelite version of Rumplestiltskin.

[Matrosov]

81. Absolutely

Mohammed is the perfect Muslim, just as Jesus is the perfect Christian.

Do we now have our heads so deep in the sand - or, better, up our own rear ends - that we're going to claim Mohammed doesn't represent all Muslims?

[Scootaloo]

88. Fascinating. So you believe all Christians are just like Jesus, too?

Or are you angling for the "no true scotsman" argument, that "only the ones who are just like Jesus are REALLY christians" - tough act to follow, what with the water-walking and multiplication of fish and loaves and healing of lpers and driving forth of possessing demons and such.

[Matrosov]

90. Yes, it's the job of Christians to emulate Jesus

At least so it seems. Criticizing or questioning the most important prophet of your faith is generally frowned upon - and in some cases, punishable by death - in Abrahamic cultures.

Thankfully, as an atheist, I don't have to figure out how to turn water into wine

[Scootaloo]

91. You're stretching your case into points of absurdity.

The overwhelming majority of religious people are just people being themselves. Most give fairly little thought to the fine details of their religion or its history or their "expanded universes" in the case of some of them (Apocrypha, Sunna, etc)

To try to define followers of a faith according to one figure in that faith - even a central one - is ignorant and laughable.

[Matrosov]

134. It's even in the Quran

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=33&verse=21

There are many different translations of course, but the core message is that Mohammad is an example that all Muslims should follow.

I will admit, perhaps I don't understand it correctly because I'm not religious on any level. However, if I were to become a Christian, Jew, or Muslim, shouldn't I follow their holy scripture, meaning that if I wanted to become a Muslim, shouldn't I try to emulate Mohammad in any way possible, as instructed in the Quran itself?

[phylny]

113. Technically, Jesus was a Jew. n/t

[840high]

127. Not I. I gave up PC for

the New Year.

[oberliner]

8. No it doesn't

It teaches the patriarchal concept of male domination and control over females.

Completely antithetical to the progressive views on women that modern Europe is trying to foster (not always successfully).

[DhhD]

10. Rape Fatwas by Wahhabi Religious Clerics beginning in 2011-Arab Spring Beginnings.

https://pjmedia.com/blog/new-fatwa-permits-kidnapping-imprisonment-rape-of-infidel-women

http://freethoughtblogs.com/taslima/2012/12/31/a-fatwa-to-rape/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/islamic-state-rape-fatwa_568237e7e4b0b958f65a55ae


Now moving into Europe.

[840high]

128. ty

[snooper2]

12. ROFLMAO you have to be trolling us on this topic

Maybe you are here just to keep us on our toes?

[maxsolomon]

75. the poster you are responding to is 100% trolling

or they are sincerely deluded.

almost 100% of their posts are defending the treatment of women in Islam.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

115. While always snarking about "white people" and "christians"

It's tired and transparent.

[Jim Beard]

15. like Baptist, as long as they do what the men say

[Arugula Latte]

20. Bullshit. All three of the backwards, primitive Abrahamic monotheistic mythologies are misogynistic.

[hifiguy]

107. And arguably the three worst ideas

human beings have ever had.

[nomorenomore08]

23. So does Christianity, ostensibly. Or at least some would claim that it does.

But millions of followers of both faiths seem not to have gotten the message.

[840high]

29. Misunderstanding - my ass.

[leftynyc]

40. Not from what I've read

from the koran. It's a deeply patriarchal religion. And rape is not misunderstanding, manhandling is not misunderstanding. It's violent assault.

[Aerows]

43. No it doesn't.

It teaches ownership of women. It teaches protection like you would protect livestock. It teaches segregation of women "for their own good".

That is not freedom by any means, and anyone who believes women have to be so ardently protected from men, needs to look around at the men they are protecting those women from.

If you honestly believe that women should not defend themselves, should not govern their own lives, and need to be constantly on the lookout for a man looking to do them harm to the point where they need men to protect them, something is fucked up in your culture.

[smirkymonkey]

103. +1000

[Act_of_Reparation]

69. Not really.

It teaches "respect" for women in the 7th century sense of the concept. What was progressive a thousand years ago is regressive today.

[JudyM]

71. What do you think is causing these behaviors, same social background of perps, different cities...

Or put another way, why is the "respect for women" message being so flagrantly violated in these cases?

[JI7]

86. no it doesn't. in fact it appears to be total opposite

[Skittles]

109. I don't think any religion really respects women

[pampango]

7. Promoting the assimilation of new immigrants and refugees is a good thing.

Much better than the right's tactic of demonizing them and claiming they can never be good members of a society.

[FrodosPet]

11. Once upon a time, when lives were to be saved,

The order was women and children first. Men, particularly able bodied men, of ANY culture who placed their own personal survival ahead of the frail and innocent was condemned as a coward.

And yet, the vast majority of the refugees seem to be military age single men. Why in the holy hell are they aiming for safety and comfort, when so many of the frail and innocent are left behind to suffer and perish at the hands of the fanatics?

[ladyVet]

14. You ask an interesting question. Lots of single men, to me, means infiltraters, not refuges. nt

[Jim Beard]

17. There is several You Tubes of the young men crashing the Hungarian border

If they are not going to obey the laws of entry, they will not respect the laws of the new home.

[CreekDog]

95. No it doesn't

There are plenty of migrants that respect the local laws, but had to escape their home country.

You're building up a straw man about refugees.

[Aerows]

46. That's exactly what they are.

You would have to be awfully naive to think that an infiltration of young men of fighting age that cannot speak the language (75% of the refugees are male) nor have any job prospects is going to turn out well.

At least Canada got it right - they only allow Syrian refugees to come in as a full family unit. Men and women with children to care for and a family to raise are going to be a positive asset.

A bunch of men raised in a deeply patriarchal society with nothing to tie them to the culture of the country the flee to is going to end in disaster.

[Dems to Win]

30. So many must have left their sisters behind to the hands of Daesh

If (big IF-some are, many are not) they are truly refugees from the Syria war.

Here's a picture making the rounds on Twitter, and the comment:



Seven young, healthy, well-shod Muslim migrant men. Ignoring one barefoot woman carrying two babies and a bag.

Not exactly a bunch of gentlemen that are now living among European women.

[Coventina]

33. That picture says it all, doesn't it?

[leftynyc]

41. That picture is very

revealing. And by revealing I mean repulsive.

[Aerows]

47. And you have the attitudes they are coming

to various countries carrying. Barefoot woman carrying children, men who have shoes and don't give a crap about the children or the woman.

[prayin4rain]

54. Ugh, that's so pathetic. n/t

[hifiguy]

57. One image hasseldom revealed

so much cultural ugliness.

[jonno99]

58. Just - wow...nt

[smirkymonkey]

97. Sickening.

This photo says a lot about the culture.

[840high]

129. TY

[LanternWaste]

53. If you predicate all your conclusions on that one presumption, they will be inaccurate.

"the vast majority of the refugees seem to be military age single men..."

If you predicate all your conclusions on that one presumption, they will be inaccurate. The demographic make-up and numbers, standing in dramatic opposition to your allegation are conveniently available should you ever desire to cast off this particular bias.

[Aerows]

83. UNHRC numbers

Tell them they are wrong and that the 75% figure the counted is incorrect. Nobody is arriving at that percentage out to thin air.

Facts are facts.

[840high]

130. Take a look at the migrants

in Germany and get back to me.

[Scootaloo]

62. Same reason that most of the people coming over our southern border are "military-age" men

They're physically better-able to make an arduous overland trip through a goddamned desert. Tehy're better-able to deal with hostile borders. They are better-enabled to create an "anchor point"; at their destination, which they can then use to bring their families behind them, or barring that, create a supply line to that family.

Migration is a very different thing from your sinking ship analogy. And refugeeism is just coerced migration.

[smirkymonkey]

96. That's what I would like to know. If it was so dangerous, why leave the most vulnerable behind?

Yes, it was a difficult journey, but if you feared enough for your life to leave your country wouldn't it be worth the risk to bring the women and children with you to save them from an even worse fate?

[philosslayer]

16. Hear Hear

amazing how some think this is a bad thing

[nomorenomore08]

25. Exactly. Right-wing groups claim that Muslims as a whole are incapable of being civilized...

And then the rest of us wonder why second-generation immigrants feel alienated.

[Coventina]

18. Translation: Norway teaches men how to be decent human beings.

If I were a Norwegian, I'd be pretty irritated that my tax dollars were being spent on men who CLEARLY are a threat to me.

[flamingdem]

24. Constructive though considering they can't do much else

What are they going to do kick them out? They have to attempt to work it out.

[nomorenomore08]

26. I don't like the fact that this is necessary either. But even if they could somehow kick people out

by the hundreds of thousands, it would be a global PR disaster - if nothing else.

[Dems to Win]

31. "Women's freedoms are already on the decline in Europe."

also from the article linked in the OP:

"I fear that problems like this are going to increase in intensity in the coming years," said Storhaug, who said she has observed, especially among Muslim foreigners, an "extremely sexualised and degrading" view of women.

"Women's freedoms are already on the decline in Europe."

I would be beyond irritated. This situation is a betrayal of decades of hard-fought progress by women.

[leftynyc]

42. I'm curious

what is meant about freedoms being on the decline. What freedoms for women are on the decline? And forget beyond irritated - I would be screaming from the freeking rooftops before I would give one inch of my freedom up because of someone else's stupid religion.

[DFW]

59. None on the law books. It's elsewhere

I live in Germany, and my wife and daughters are all blonde Europeans, though one daughter now makes her residence in the USA. Most of the time, a German woman alone can go most anywhere in Germany, walk anywhere, travel on any bus, tram or local train late into the night and not have the slightest fear she will be molested. If they now have to be told there are no-go parts of town, or hours beyond which cities and public transportation are no longer safe, then these are freedoms on the decline. At some point people who are used to these freedoms will rebel against them being taken away. They will blame the faceless bureaucrats that foisted this situation upon them, but they will retaliate against their aggressors, or, if the real criminals can't be identified, people who resemble them, guilty or not.

It's not only the religion, either. There are parts of the world where the local culture has evolved this way long before 622 AD. The religion just reinforces it. Women in Africa did much of the manual labor way before Islam penetrated there. For that matter, the notion of enlightened/emancipated women in Northern European cultures is a fairly recent one. In Germany, before the 1970s, a married woman needed her husband's written consent to work (!!!!). But the women there have no intention of giving those freedoms up just because their country wants to make a huge humanitarian gesture.

[leftynyc]

63. Ah - I understand

and completely sympathize. I was just making sure they weren't instituting sharia law in place of German or European law. If the left does nothing but whine about Islamophobia when confronted with these real issues, they deserve to lose every election until they wake the fuck up. I wont give up any of my freedoms to satisfy someone's backwards religion.

[DFW]

78. German law still prevails--on the books, anyway

But the government has overwhelmed the cities and towns and left too many people in the hands of poorly trained (or untrained) well-meaning volunteers.

Case in point--I just got off the phone with my wife in Germany (I am recovering from surgery in Dallas). A volunteer brought a group of young male refugees to the local indoor swimming pool today. She left them with pieces of paper in Arabic telling them what constituted proper behavior, since there is no gender separation in Germany. She then left (!!!!!) intending to pick them up later. She didn't know, or bother to find out, that half these guys were illiterate and had no idea what was on the paper. When they saw girls in bikinis, they started taking off their bathing suits and wiggling their erections around. They won't have any idea they did something illegal, and the Germans in the pool will avoid refugees whenever they see them, and their parents will never hire one. My wife votes either Green or Social Democrat, always has, but she says if German law is not applied to all who come to live in Germany, than she will vote for a party who will correct that. She says that the government is acting like their right hand doesn't know what the left one is doing, and to the orderly Germans, this drives them up the wall even more than their stodgy bureaucracy. The next year will not be a boring one in Germany.

[leftynyc]

80. Oy vey

First I wish you a very speedy recovery from your surgery. As much as I make fun of TX, there are excellent hospitals there. I completely sympathize with your wife and what I said above is something I know to be true. If the left continues to ignore what's right in front of them, they will lose and lose huge. And they'll deserve it.

[DFW]

82. You're right, the hospital is tops, and the doctors are the best here

I should be back on my feet in a week, if somewhat wobbly.

There is no more ignoring what's right in front of us. It's everywhere. The big question now is whether or not the government chooses to recognize the massive scale of what they have brought into the country, and whether or not they are prepared to devote equally massive resources to contain the cultural clashes. If they do, we'll manage it. If they do like European bureaucrats usually do (i.e. pass it on down the line to another bureaucrat), there will be a right wing backlash like Europe hasn't seen since the 1930s. It's preventable. Let's hope it gets prevented.

[leftynyc]

133. The reaction really depends on the left

If they continue to ignore the reality - that some Muslims are having a hard time assimilating, or even worse, just sneaked in with the other refugees to wreak havoc and has to be not only acknowledged but fixed - if they continue to just call anyone concerned an Islamophobe - they not only will lose, they will deserve to lose. The very first job of any government is to protect their citizens.

Glad to hear you'll be up and around soon. Again I wish you the speediest of recoveries.

[Yo_Mama]

89. Yes, it is the chaos more than anything except the violence.

Also a lack of police, shelter facilities, and services that could help those that are willing get a foothold in the German society.

Without all that infrastructure, it is going to be a difficult few years.

Those that could read the paper could have told the others, so the explanation for what occurred isn't just illiteracy. The problem runs a good bit deeper.

Such incidents are obviously not building the road to a better future.

[Dems to Win]

111. Next immigration crisis in New Zealand, as Germans scramble to find a safe place to raise daughters

Will New Zealand be overwhelmed by German families hoping to claim asylum because their daughters are not safe from harassment and sexual assault in their home country? A place where girls can walk to school in peace, where women can take public transport at any time they need to.

In the swimming pool incident, I wonder, were the police called? Did they take any action? Was the incident in the newspapers?

Free people vote with their feet, when all else fails. I once read some stats that from the 80s through the 00s, for every one foreign immigrant who moved into Miami, one white person picked up from Miami and moved to Broward County. They built a newer, shinier Miami just north of the old one. As an environmentalist, my first response was 'Did we need another Miami?'

But it does point our how real people do act, in the real USofA.

Regarding Germany, the reports are that the migrants tents and shelters have been placed everywhere, in towns from one end of the country to the other. Are there still neighborhoods where schoolgirls can walk to school without being annoyed and harassed by grown men in the street? Are there places where families can move and still feel comfortable living in Germany?

I agree with your assessment, below. German women and girls will either regain their freedom of movement and safety, pronto, or the next election results will be dire. Families may well be fleeing Germany soon from either/both the sexual assault in the streets and swimming pools and/or a new far right government.

You say Germany still has time to get control and make it work. I hope for everyone's sake the government takes strong action, and fast. Letting things go along with no intervention will lead to results that will likely be bad for many people in Germany.

[DFW]

118. From what my wife told me

No police were called, as no dire physical violence occurred. When the counselor, or whatever term you'd use (they say "Betreuer&quot came back, she led them back to wherever they were staying, and, presumably, tried to make hem understand what they did wrong. Trouble is, they come from a culture that punishes social misbehavior with beatings and other corporal punishment. Germany doesn't do that, and so they may get the mistaken impression they did nothing drastically wrong--until some of the girls' boyfriends, brothers or parents show up next time to beat the shit out of them. THEN the police will come, arrest the immigrants' assailants, and set off a new round of serious resentment, with everybody getting punished without having the slightest feeling they were doing the wrong thing.

Merkel's government has to divert some serious resources to prevent this from getting out of hand. There is time, I feel, but the window is closing.

Most towns do NOT look like Palestinian camps on the West Bank. Germany is crowded, but most places have managed to keep neighborhoods relatively safe. But "relatively" safe still causes resentment where those communities were completely safe before. The people are tolerant, but will not stand for it for long.

[840high]

131. 10++

[B2G]

34. Sure. Because a couple of hours of classes

Will erase a lifetime of indoctrination.

[FrodosPet]

35. At least they are acknowledging that there is a problem

For the most part, the European governments have been ignoring it, hoping the problem goes away on its own.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

36. At least it's a start.

[leftynyc]

44. It wont

but what choice do they have at this point? Their people don't feel safe (for good reason). Europe, in trying to do a decent thing, truly fucked up.

[B2G]

48. Totally agree. nt

[Aerows]

50. It's a mistake

in the making to bring in hundreds of thousands of fighting age men that are fleeing their own country instead of fighting for it there.

What on Earth do people think the outcome of that particular situation is going to be? They will fight to instill it in Europe, instead.

[leftynyc]

52. Unfortunately

they're reaping consequences from trying to do the right thing. I don't blame the European populations for finally fighting back on this but if the left is going to just whine about Islamophobia when people voice their very real concerns, the people are going to look for those who are addressing those concerns. It's human nature.

[hifiguy]

55. Send 'em home. Immediately.

Keep the families, women and children. Let the draft-age males go fight their own battles in their own benighted societies.

[hifiguy]

77. It's well intentioned, but

I think it will be about as successful as trying to teach your cat differential calculus.

There's no interest and it there is no way it is gonna sink in.

[smirkymonkey]

102. Unfortunately, I think you're right.

I don't think it's going to work simply because these men have no respect for women in the first place. It's not ignorance, it's just blatant misogyny.

[hifiguy]

105. You can't undo a couple of thousand years of cultural norms

with a class based on reason. Pointless.

[SoCalDem]

85. If they plan to stay there and not spend their time in jail....perhaps

It should really start with the mothers who are raising these "privileged pet" boys..

A college friend pf mine was shot in the thigh with a bb gun for wearing a mini skirt.. It was in Beirut in 1965.. Her parents sent her to France to finish high school after that.. The man told her she deserved it for being immodest
(They were in Saudi Arabia working for an oil company, and had sent her to the American school in Beirut

[phylny]

114. My husband works for an oil company

and years ago, they wanted to send us to Saudi Arabia. With three daughters, two blondes, my husband said, "No way."

[11 Bravo]

76. I would love to see Ronda Rousey and Holly Holm teach a few ...

of them about respecting women. I'm guessing one lesson would suffice.

[Ex Lurker]

84. 1 beating multiple assailants works in the movies

Not so much IRL. That is the problem. I don't care how skilled you are, any martial artist will tell you the first rule of thumb is to get the hell out of dodge if they gang up on you.

There was one incident of someone fending off a gang in Cologne that night, but he was a 7 foot tall, 260 lb hotel doorman who happened to be a kickboxing champion. And even then his size didn't dissuade them from at least trying. http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/634286/Cologne-sex-attack-kickboxer-police-notes

[nomorenomore08]

125. Can't disagree with this post. Or at least the spirit behind it.