Halt to San Jose kindergartners’ Santa visit angers parents

[Jesus Malverde]

A planned kindergarten field trip to sit on Santa’s lap has evolved into a name-calling, less-than-jolly brouhaha and a parent walkout in a San Jose school district.

The uproar started when a parent questioned the annual Sartorette Elementary School trip to a cafe to see Santa and drink hot chocolate.

School officials suspended the outing, according to media reports, resulting in loud complaints from other parents who said the opinion of one mom shouldn’t have superseded the wishes of others who supported the trip.

Parents on both sides of the debate spoke at a Thursday meeting of the Cambrian School District board meeting, but since the issue wasn’t on the agenda, no action was taken.

Then on Friday, 20 to 30 parents pulled their kids out of school and marched them to the cafe-sitting Santa anyway, in defiance of what many saw as a skirmish in the war on Christmas.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Halted-kindergarten-trip-to-Santa-s-lap-ignites-6708108.php

[Initech]

1. So now the PC Police are attacking Santa? What the serious fuck???

[msongs]

2. public schools should not be promoting religion nt

[Jesus Malverde]

3. The church of Santa Claus?

[Luminous Animal]

120. Santa is indeed an icon of Christmas which happens to be a Christian religion.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

4. Santa is a religion? nt

[Shandris]

7. Yes, I remember the Zoroastrian story about how Santa Claus ascended the Tree of Life and...

...handed out packages to lepers from San Jose, thus proving the ascendancy of the Iranians over all people.

No wait, that would be silly. Or are we going to stick with the "Santa is Asatru cuz Odin!" angle and, if so, why did we remove his eyepatch?

No, realistically I agree that 'promoting religion' isn't a good thing. But this isn't promoting religion, it's promoting a secular holiday. There isn't a single religion in the world a person can point to as "Christmas" unless one wants to start talking about Mystery Religions, and I doubt we're going to go all esoteric up in the San Jose Elementary School.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. You are correct, that did not happen this way

but perhaps you should read on the origin of St Nicholas.

http://www.biography.com/people/st-nicholas-204635

Yes, St Nick is a CATHOLIC CHRISTIAN SAINT. So yes, the school is in a way, not that I believe the school gets, it, promoting religion. Truth be told in the modern US they are promoting the religion of consumption, but that is a whole different story.

If the school is private, by all means, but this is a public school.

If I had a kid in that school, that kid would stay home, no santa or hot chocolate for him or her. Being JEWISH... or perhaps we should have songs honoring the maccabees. Hey, it is that time of year after all, when we have a fairly minor holiday in the Jewish calendar that our merchants and promoters are trying to grow into something huuugee. By the way, Hanukah Harry does not exist

Here, some Hanukah songs...(Engiish)

[Shandris]

79. I note that the historic St. Nicholas had no reindeer, no outfit, no white beard, no...

...chimneys to come down, in fact, other than providing a bit of inspiration (along with the aforementioned Odin), he is only tangentially related to the holiday as much as the candles, songs, tree, and ceremonial lighting.

Again, there is no one religion identifiable as the modern Christmas.

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. Yes there is

and any kid who is not Christian will tell you exactly what it is, CHRISTIANITY.

Nick is bringing gifts to good boys and girls, who are CHRISTIAN.

Perhaps this is something that people need to understand, but if you are not a member of the majority religion it is way obvious. As I said, if I had a kid in that school, my kid gets to stay home, and I get to call the ACLU.

If the kids want to go AFTER CLASS, or their parents take them, sure... otherwise it is a violation of the establishment clause... if this was a private school, knock yourself silly by the way.

[Shandris]

84. You presume much. I'm not Christian. I was RAISED Christian, and there's a wealth of difference.

So no, you don't get to pull the "Christian privilege" argument. Just because some children are taught that Christmas is a Christian holiday does not make it so, any more than children that are taught that black people are evil makes it so.

Nick brings gifts to everyone who has a parent who can obtain them, and every community that has some outreach, plus a ton of national charities. He is a fictional character, a caricature made off of 100 different religious stories, tales, and moral lessons, to teach a cultural lesson about giving and good behavior.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. Forgive me

Last edited Sat Dec 19, 2015, 06:21 PM - Edit history (1)

But saying Christmas is not a Christian holiday is ridiculous

[GGJohn]

8. Since when did Santa Claus become a religion?

[Joe the Revelator]

12. SInce he was based on a Christian Saint....

I mean, its in his name.

[GGJohn]

22. Santa Claus is based on a Christian Saint?

Learn something new every day.
I still don't see a problem with schools celebrating Santa Claus or going on field trips to visit Santa.

[Joe the Revelator]

31. You really didn't know that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas




I'm not ok with kids taking time out of school to go sit on Santa's lap, for a number of reasons.

[GGJohn]

35. I swear I didn't know that.

I have no problem with those field trips, I guess I was raised in a different era where everything wasn't so PC.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

[Joe the Revelator]

38. Its all good, but there really isn't anything 'PC' about not doing religious stuff during....

public school hours. Its a basic separation of church and state issue.

[GGJohn]

42. Well, when you put it that way.....

then I have to rethink my reasoning.

[treestar]

74. I was raised in that era too but

everyone at my school was a Christian save two or three families. One was Jewish. There was one Jewish family. That's all. No one copped to being atheist in those days. There were a couple of Asian families, but they could have been Christian.

It may not be an entirely bad thing those times are gone. It was technically incorrect for them to have a sing Christmas Carols in school, but nobody said anything back then due to the homogeneity of the people. That's what right wingers mean when they call this a Christian nation. Everyone was Christian of course. Now that's not so true any more.

[Warpy]

48. The RCC dumped him along with St. Valentine and a few others

so he's entirely secular these days.

PC Police are getting just as bluenosed as the Purtans were.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

122. Up on the roof top click, click, click. Down through the chimney with good Saint Nick.

Sound familiar?

[GGJohn]

123. Sounds very familiar,

but I swear I never put 2+2 together.
This is what I love about DU, learn many things.

[zigby]

94. He's based on a hodgpodge of myths and figures

From at least three different religious traditions.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

57. Oh for fucks sake... Santa Claus is as religious as the Coca-Cola polar bears

The Santa Claus of the English speaking world is the creation of a Coca-Cola art director named Sunny Sundblom.

[smirkymonkey]

72. +1000

[treestar]

73. He is part of the religious tradition

for the religious holiday - based on the saint who brought gifts.

The commercialization of Christmas has perhaps taken that down a few notches. Santa goes along with that part very well so maybe there is a secular Santa. Still, he came out of Christian tradition.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

88. Most of western civilization came out of the christian tradition

But the jolly man in the red suit is the invention of artists at Coca-Cola, and if David Sedaris is to believed Saint Nick is a bit of an asshole.

[zigby]

96. i just had coffee with my hindu friend

she had a lovely decorated tree and Santa is coming to put presents under it. Ain't America grand!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

5. I'm just amazed at what constitutes a field trip nowadays n/m

[Skittles]

124. I thought the same thing

sorry, visiting Santa is a parent thing, not a teacher thing

[kiva]

9. Not surprising that 'microagressions' become a problem when they hit college.

Traditions are great, said San Francisco school board member Rachel Norton. But tradition shouldn’t trump the feelings of all students. No child should feel left out or alienated in school, she said.

She cited an annual December trip to an ice skating rink at one San Francisco school that was reconsidered by teachers and parents when a student in a wheelchair was unable to participate.

Given that students with a variety of issues are mainstreamed, where does this stop? Does the class field trip to the farm not happen because one child has anxiety issues about cows? Is the trip to the widget factory cancelled because one child can't cope with loud noises?

Why not have a fun school activity for kids who can't go or don't want to go or whose parents forgot to sign the permission slip?

[packman]

11. Hell, I remember getting a letter from the principal

of an elementary school my kids attended telling all parents not to pack peanut butter sandwiches in their lunch bags because one (1) kid had an allergy to the stuff. All 300+ kids were told to acquiesce to the one.

[MohRokTah]

75. That's a completely different issue.

I have a niece who was violently allergic to peanuts at a young age. She did not even have to eat peanuts to go into life threatening anaphylactic shock, merely touching a food with peanuts in it would potentially kill her.

The severity decreased as she got older and the risk of being near kids who had peanuts in their lunch became no problem.

This issue is about a child's life, which is far more important than emotional reactions to field trips.

[Igel]

16. Yes, it's okay for kids to feel left out.

They are. That's how it works when you're not part of the majority.

If you keep kosher, you're left out of crawfish and crab feasts.

If you're allergic to fur, you don't go to the petting zoo.

If you get seasick, you don't go on the fishing trip.

If there's a musical field trip X and you really hate X, you don't go unless there's a good academic reason.

I don't observe Xmas. Others do; so be it, I'm not going to tell them to be quiet and act like they don't because it might hurt my feelings.

When in another country for a while, I didn't expect people to use only English any more than the Russians expected them to learn Russian, the Germans expected them to learn German and the French expected them to learn ... (Well, skip that last bit, the French felt it appropriate to expect everybody to know French.) In other words, itt was appropriate to learn the relevant local language. Sometimes the majority does have rights, not just unjust privileges that must be fought. In Nogales, hucksters and shopkeepers learn English not as a concession to my human dignity but because they want to sell me something. If I wander off the tourist track and only encounter Spanish, my "right" to the dignity of my native language is worth precious little, and appropriately so.

[Joe the Revelator]

21. Being left out is fine, having religious stuff go down in public school is not.

Easy concept. What learning standard does a visit with Santa fulfill?

[Igel]

89. The distinction between culture and religion is a non-existent one.

Remove all religious celebrations and references from a culture where most people belong to the same faith tradition and you've bowdlerized the literature, the culture, and behavior.

"I'm sorry, most kids will be home for Xmas. This may be inconvenient, but that's when we've scheduled the standardized test required for advancing to the next grade." It's intolerant and unconscionable.

When I started grad school in Slavic lit, my cohort was told to read the Bible, at least the NT, several times--a couple of times in English, and at least once in Russian. Why? Because all the writers and readers for the literatures involved attended church fairly regularly, in their youth if not as adults, and it provided a common frame of reference, a common cultural language.

If you were Jewish or Confucian or Muslim, it didn't matter. You needed to know what was going on, and that required understanding the dominant culture. If there is no dominant culture, then society is quickly balkanized. Older traditions and canons are inaccessible; the common cultural framework, how to interact with each other, falls to pieces. Older generations feel the ground shifting, and younger generations assume that anything goes. Social trust erodes and instead of a society you have multiple competing, mutually exclusive societies. And we wonder why a societal safety net isn't manageable, while advocating for multiple societies, but ensuring that some societies give more than they receive. It doesn't work, or doesn't stay a liberal democracy.

Note that not all field trips satisfy learning standards. Some are just for fun. Not every lab in high school is spot-on for a learning standard. Not every activity needs to be tested on or be according to some normed and standards-related rubric. Our chemistry teachers were irate when some parent complained that her little snowflake got a failing grade on something that was irrelevant--making a mole for Mole Day.

(I'd note that the standards that had to be implemented instead of Mole Day had been revised. The previous ones included stoichiometry but assumed that even brain-damaged admins would realize that if you need to teach solutions and stoich you'd need to use moles. The standards, however, left that unstated, so the teachers were told not to waste time teaching what a mole is. In high school physics there's the same problem. Teach motion, forces, etc., in two dimensions. But teaching trig or i-j notation isn't stated, takes times, and we get headwind if we try to teach it. So everything's at 0, 90, or 180 degrees and students have to memorize 1, 0, or -1 as appropriate instead of learning what a cosine is.)

If I'm teaching cultural literacy abroad, I'd teach Santa. Too many pop and historical references to it. You may not "feel" the salience, but you should at least know they're there. And the more salient, the more personal the reference the better.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. You seriously are comparing kindergarden

with graduate school in slavic studies? And I know you are serious.

[zigby]

98. Smartest post on this thread.

Thank you.

[MisterP]

24. the ol' "I'm bald, everyone else must shave" routine?

[Drahthaardogs]

29. I disagree with this. I remember growing up Jehovah Witnesses would not even salute the flag and

participated in NOTHING. Call me a Utilitarian, but I don't think it is a realistic expectation that everyone will never be left out. School also prepares kids for life. This is life.

[kiva]

45. I'm thinking you meant to respond

to the guy above your post.

[Drahthaardogs]

49. Sorry, small screen and big fingers.

You know what they say about guys with big hand though right????




THEY WEAR BIG GLOVES!

[kiva]

67. ...

[Joe the Revelator]

13. As a Jewish parent of a Jewish child, I applaud this mother.

It's harder than it looks keeping your religious and cultural traditions alive in this country, without a public school making it even more difficult. No religion in school is a simple ass concept.

[Nye Bevan]

18. Yes, because a fat man saying "Ho ho ho" would cause any Jewish child to question his faith.

Especially if he's wearing a red suit and a false beard.

Just like dreidels are notorious for driving Christian kids into Judaism.

[Joe the Revelator]

19. You obviously don't get it

Hey Buddy, you know that guy who passes over your house every year,not because your naughty, but because you're Jewish? Yeah, well, you still have to go see him with your kindergarten class, and no matter how hard you ask him, he's still not showing up at your house. No, bud, I have no idea what this has to do with learning either.

[Nye Bevan]

23. I like to expose my daughter to cultural traditions outside those of our own family.

A holiday and its traditions can still be wonderful even if it's not our holiday.

[Joe the Revelator]

25. That's fine and dandy, do it on your own time, not in public school.

And again, you don't really understand the issue with trying to explain why Santa doesn't bring cool shit to Jewish kids to a 5 year old inundated with Santa. They get enough exposure to that shit from society at large in December.

[Nye Bevan]

30. Instead of one day of presents they get eight *crazy* nights,

or so says Adam Sandler.

And don't some Jewish families utilize "Chanukah Harry" as a Santa substitute?

[Joe the Revelator]

32. No. They don't. That was an SNL character. nt

[Nye Bevan]

37. Darn Wikipedia wrong again.

Many families exchange gifts each night, such as books or games and "Hanukkah Gelt" is often given to children. Fried foods (such as latkes potato pancakes, jelly doughnuts sufganiyot and Sephardic Bimuelos) are eaten to commemorate the importance of oil during the celebration of Hanukkah. Some also have a custom to eat dairy products to remember Judith and how she overcame Holofernes by feeding him cheese, which made him thirsty, and giving him wine to drink. When Holofernes became very drunk, Judith cut off his head.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanukkah

[Joe the Revelator]

41. Yes presents are exchanged, but Hanukkah Harry was an SNL skit from the early 90s

I wouldn't support kids being taken to sit on John Lovitz lap during school hours either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Yes, wiki is wrong

this is what happens with that Chanukah Guelt, and I don't mean the chocolate coins. Kids get to keep those...

Kids play with it with the dreidel. At the end of the week... no they do not get to exchange this guelt for real money and go buy themselves a nice gift, at least not when I was growing up. On shabbat, kids take that money to the nice Tzdaka box (charity) and put in for charity.

Yeah, yeah Madison Ave has succeeded with some secular jews, and there are some gift exchanged... but it is hardly a majority practice. Oh and Chanukah is really a really minor holiday.

Yes, buddy I rarely agree wiht Joe, but if I had a kid at school, I would not just raise a stink, kid stays home, but I call the ACLU, this is a violation of the establishment clause.

[GGJohn]

28. +1000.

This country has become so fucking PC these days, it's impossible to even say something without offending someone else.
I'm so sick of this shit.

[B2G]

14. I am so glad my kids are out of school

I couldn't deal with the bullshit these days.

[Snobblevitch]

15. It's been a long time since I was in kindergarten,

but even that many years ago we did not use classtime to see Santa. There were Christmas trees, and other Christmas decorations throughout the achool however. We even had one hour each week in which we got out of school and went to the local church of your choice for religeous instruction. 

[Person 2713]

54. I was thinking the same thing. Isn't that something you do with mom or dad and they take photos

of you with Santa ? Or a Santa photo op with your siblings ?
As a Classroom activity I never heard of it

[Snobblevitch]

68. I grew up in a small farming community.

I distinctly remember going to see Santa in an 'igloo' on the courthouse lawn. My dad crawled inside with me and there was Santa sitting on an upside down galvanized bucket. (The igloo ceiling was quite low. No, I am not as old as this story may sound, it was the 70s.) Looking back, it would seem that somebody was confusing Santa, the North Pole, and Eskimos. There are no natives living at the North Pole. I asked my dad years later what the deal was. He said the 'igloo' was the top of a silo with a door cut into it. I suppose it was sponsored by a local fraternal organization.

It wasn't until many years later after the local indoor mall was built (since torn down) that the ubiquitous Santas showed up at the mall and another at a competing discount store.

I just received a photo from my oldest brother of his first grandchild sitting on Santa's lap. She's 13-1/2 months old and did not appear to be happy as she was sitting on a stranger's lap.

(I was at her birthday party a few weeks ago, and she got more gifts than what is reasonable. I gave her a wooden box that was covered with latches, doors, a deadbolt, etc. that I bought for $1.80 at a thrift store. Her 30 year old parents thought it was a great toy. They thought I might have made it myself. I disabused them of that notion, but I did not tell them how much I paid for it. (I disinfected it thoroughly.)

[Person 2713]

70. Ha I have a photo of one of my kids around 1 or 2 looks like Santa is kidnapping him . The fear

in his face and struggling to get out of Santa s arms. We laugh when we look at it now.
Santa used to sit in the news stand- a little wooden roofed box of a shelter to sell newspapers from on the street corner and that is in a big metro area. Most of the newsstands are gone now of course due to a combo of loss of readership, and gentrification

Thrift stores hold a plethora of goodies for anyone at any age . The latches and lock will help with coordination development so very good find

[Snobblevitch]

71. My sister brought my nephew to a discount store to see

the Easter Bunny. (Who does that? It looked like the Easter Gopher.) He was about 2-1/2 and was terrified. It was long enough ago that the photo they gave my sister was from a Polaroid. (She died way too young 22 years ago next month. My nephew is doing well as a home-owner with a good job in Portland.)

[Nye Bevan]

17. Does Santa say "Ho ho ho! Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior!"

If not, then I don't get the problem.

[Joe the Revelator]

20. Is he not the personification of an inherently Christian holiday?

What does he have to do with learning? I send my kids to school to learn, not go sit on a fat guy's lap and ask for presents.

[Nye Bevan]

27. If I was living in Israel,

even though I am not Jewish, I wouldn't complain if my child's school had them take time to spin dreidels or something the day before Chanukah.

[Joe the Revelator]

34. Israel being a state founded as a homeland for the jewish people vs America which has the....

....Separation of Church and State written into their constitution....

[Nye Bevan]

40. "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion"

is the exact phrase in the Constitution. And believe it or not, it is established precedent that exposing public schoolchildren to Santa Claus does not violate this.

[Snobblevitch]

51. The words "...separation of church and state..."

appear nowhere in the U.S. Constitution.

By the way, I am OK with this school not having a foeld trip to see Santa. The parents should be in charge of this type of activity.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. It is the establishment clause in the First Ammendment

Although some government action implicating religion is permissible, and indeed unavoidable, it is not clear just how much the Establishment Clause tolerates. In the past, the Supreme Court has permitted religious invocations to open legislative session, government funding of bussing and textbooks for private religious schools, and efforts by school districts to arrange schedules to accommodate students’ extra-curricular religious education programs. The Court has ruled against some overtly religious displays at courthouses, state funding supplementing teacher salaries at religious schools, and some overly religious holiday decorations on public land.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/establishment_clause

Seriously, this is not that bloody difficult.

It is a whole area of law that stems from the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights, which is considered part the United States Constitution.

[Drahthaardogs]

33. Um, no.

Not even a little bit. What is Christlike about Santa Claus?

[Joe the Revelator]

36. The holiday he represents and the historical figure that he....is

[Drahthaardogs]

39. I am Catholic and know quite well the saint you speak of.

and he is no way, shape, or form like Christ, which is what you purport. We can do this if you want, but you don't know what you are talking about ...

[Joe the Revelator]

43. I see, you are taking issue with my use of the word 'personification'. Feel free to sub in...

mascot.

[Drahthaardogs]

46. Fuck that,

You said it, now defend it. I call bullshit on your rant.

[Joe the Revelator]

50. Whoa there Blitzen....

Does Santa represent the Christmas Holiday? Is he based on a religious figure? Is Christmas a religious holiday? If the answer to any of the questions is 'yes', then going to sit on his lap should not be something that is done during school hours in a public school.

[Drahthaardogs]

52. No, he most certainly DOES NOT

Christmas is about the birth of the Christ. All of this Santa nonsense is just that, nonsense. It is and can be fun to give and receive gifts. It is also a great time of year to remember others and not be so damned self-centered (cough, cough). To call Santa a religious figure is fucking ridiculous. La Befana in italian folklore is more religious.

Honestly, sometimes I don't get it. We were Catholic and could not eat meat on Fridays. So we didn't. The school had peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for the Catholic kids. We did not throw a fit. We accepted what is and dealt with it. It is not a conspiracy, its not the end of the world. Most of the school was NOT Catholic. They ate hamburgers. LIFE IS NOT FAIR. Learn the lesson young and get used to it.

Furthermore, I would be more than happy to send my kids to a Passover to see what it was about. It is actually a good thing that they learn others are different and they have to accept it as part of life. Plus learning other cultures is cool.

[Joe the Revelator]

53. Again. You are missing the point.

1.Santa represents a christian holiday. If you are not Christian and in anyway religious, you do not celebrate Christmas. There is a different in having to eat pb&J and being taken to sit on a man's lap, representing a holiday that you have no part of, during school hours. I don't know about you, but that's not the kind of stuff i send my kid to school for.

2. Trust me, there is no need for cultural crossovers during the month of December. Christmas and all it stands for, obviously has a corner on the market in this country. Which is fine. Just don't take my kid to see Santa during public school hours. This is not a hard concept.

[Drahthaardogs]

56. There are plenty of people who are not Christian who celebrate the holiday

because the message is kind of good. Be kind, give to charities, enjoy family and friends.

I think you have every right to NOT have your kid participate if you chose not to. I think it is ridiculous that you think no one else can because it makes your kid feel left out. IT is exactly the same as us eating PBJ. We did not expect everyone to have to eat it because we could not.

[Joe the Revelator]

58. Yes but meat is not inherently religious and you weren't taken to a steak house by the school on....

....Fridays.


And people who aren't Christians and celebrate Christmas are not religious in another religion that doesn't celebrate Christmas. Understand how that works?

[Drahthaardogs]

60. I thought we already established modern Santa is not really religious.

You are grasping at straws now.

[Joe the Revelator]

62. You tried to establish that. 'We' did nothing of the sort.

And grasping at straws? You are trying to compare being served a PB&J in the cafeteria and fucking dreidel to being taken off campus to visit Santa Claus during a public school day. Lets not talk about 'grasping at straws' friend.

[Drahthaardogs]

64. Scarlett, do you have the vapors?

Seriously...

[Joe the Revelator]

66. Dude....

Only one of us is getting crazy mad. Are you related to Santa or something?

[Joe the Revelator]

55. In addition, please trust that I would be just as against having a Seder during the school day.

You want your kid to go to a Seder? Awesome, take him to one. On your time.

[Drahthaardogs]

59. And I would be against holding a mass.

But this is not on par with a mass or a seder. This is like saying the kids cannot play with a dreidel because it is "religious".

[Joe the Revelator]

61. Honestly, I'd be against a 'rousing' game of dreidel during the school day as well.

But again, let's not dabble in false equivalencies. Spinning a top and taking kids off campus to sit on a man's lap who doesn't come to see you if you're naughty is not quite the same.

[Drahthaardogs]

63. OF course it is, you just like being sanctimonious and it fits your argument

Neither activity is an indoctrination into a religion, but you argue it is because, let's face it, the whole Christmas thing pisses you off. Seriously, your life is so perfect you get this bent over Santa Claus? Must be nice..

[Joe the Revelator]

65. Only one of us is angry here, and let me give you a hint, its the one allegedly filled...

....with the Christmas Spirit.

What is sanctimonious about not wanting a school to take a Jewish (insert any not christian religion you want here) to see the MASCOT (there fixed THAT for you) of a Christian holiday? How is this not making sense to you?

And why would you think that Christmas 'pisses me off'? I'm quite fine with Christmas, it's sad to explain to my kid why Santa doesn't stop at his house or why we don't have a Christmas tree, but I'm not sitting on the top of Mount Krumpet figuring out ways to keep Christmas from coming.

I just would not want the public school system to take my kid to see Santa Claus. I don't care if you and your kid go down to the mall twice a day in december to sit in his lap, as long as you are doing it on your time.

[Nye Bevan]

44. That dude's beard is nowhere near long enough.

And where's his sack? And his coat is the wrong color. IMPOSTER!

[Joe the Revelator]

47. He probably smells of beef and cheese.

[cherokeeprogressive]

26. The Cambrian School District. Making students smarter and the world a better place.

[840high]

69. I'm so over this PC crap.

[GoCubsGo]

76. Oh, FFS!

Since when is it the job of schools to take kids to see Santa? You want your kid to visit Santa, then take him/her there yourself.

[Hepburn]

82. My thoughts exactly.

How about some learning time instead of a field trip to Santa?

[matt819]

77. FFS

What is so fucking complicated about this.

There's a school outing.

Parents get a notice asking if they approve their kid's participation. If the parent approves, the kid goes. If the parent disapproves, the kid stays at school or doesn't go to school that day. Yes, there could be sensitivities about participation/non-participation, but it has always been thus, whatever the purpose of the visit.

This should not be a big deal.

[Joe the Revelator]

83. What part of the school day does visting Santa fall under?

Math? Science?

[matt819]

101. School outings cover all sorts of activities

Look, I think a Santa visit is stupid but it's up to the school what activities they permit. The rest of procedural.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. Read the Establishment clause of the in the Bill of Rights

Please

Private school, whatever. This is a public school. Amirite

[rug]

91. Read the NYC parking regiulations.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/2015-asp-calendar.pdf

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. And do explain to me how the NYC parking regulations relate to the establishment clause

of the First Amendment?

Never mind... down the rabbit hole not we will go, but have gone.

[rug]

95. Perhaps you do not object to a government suspending laws for Purim.

Try the school calendar if you're lost.

http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/A3D17228-63C2-4178-89FC-0BE130C616BE/0/201516SchoolYearCalendar_Revised83115.pdf

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. Are they doing it for all significant holidays of all faiths?

Yes.

Should they do it? Not per the Establishment clause.

So the winter break for Christmas perhaps should go away as well. But that is another discussion.

Do kids go to the synagogue in costume to celebrate (unless they are Jewish and I guarantee not all). Do they get Ears of Amman pastries at school? Nope.

[rug]

102. The test is not whether it is open to all but whether it has a seclar purpose.

http://religioninthepublicschools.com/downloads/Religion%20-%20Ch6%20-%20School%20Activities%20and%20Accommodations.pdf

Your understanding of the Establishment Clause is skewed.

This kindergarten trip to a children's activity with a cultural icon doesn't implicate the Establishment Clause.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Nope

Although some government action implicating religion is permissible, and indeed unavoidable, it is not clear just how much the Establishment Clause tolerates. In the past, the Supreme Court has permitted religious invocations to open legislative session, government funding of bussing and textbooks for private religious schools, and efforts by school districts to arrange schedules to accommodate students’ extra-curricular religious education programs. The Court has ruled against some overtly religious displays at courthouses, state funding supplementing teacher salaries at religious schools, and some overly religious holiday decorations on public land.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/establishment_clause

Sorry, visiting Santa or eating Hamman's Ears, should be an EXTRA CURRICULAR activity.

[rug]

105. Er, do you realize you bolded "extra-curricular religious "education" programs"?

Do you actually believe sitting on Santa's lap is religious education?

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. Santa is part of a CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION, which is a RELIGIOUS HOLIDAY

I know this is hard to understand for you, but it is.

[rug]

108. They're going to a cafe to drink hot chocolate with Santa.

You live in San Diego? Do you know it's named after Saint Didacus of Alcalá?



You should make sure no kindergartener goes anywhere near City Hall. There's more religious content there than in a cup of hot chocolate with Santa Claus.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. Conflating issues

and not understanding why this can be confusing for a kid.

By the way, I go to City Hall often... the mass includes the pledge, St Obama (no seriously a photo of the President is proudly displayed by the City). and of course the canticle of the day includes things like oh the prayer of the Climate Action Plan, and the song of the Park Department Budget. They lack the ooomph of a good Gregorian chant though... for some reason.

Hell, the City of San Diego, for multiple reasons, has not included an invocation for many years. Now El Cajon, the County and Santee, do. For the record, the Supreme Court has found that invocations are fine.

Nice try though. You get an award for that conflating attempt.

Oh and here is one of the holy images.

?w=213&h=319&crop=1

(That is the closest I have ever taken to this)



Or this for fairness sake



It is just an interesting composition trick.

[rug]

112. Here's a shot of another religious service.

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. I am sorry if you cannot understand how this St Nick dude

that brings good gifts to good boys and girls can be confusing to Jewish Kids, or kids from any other faith that does not have St Nick as part of a RELIGIOUS observance.

I am actually not surprised by the way. At one time I was, but not anymore. People like you are all but surprising. So to close, if I had a kid, I would be calling a lawyer. Live with it, or not, I don't give two shits about it.

[rug]

116. "People like you"

Ill refrain from comment.

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. By the way, the NYC school district started respecting Muslim traditions

such as Ramadan this year as well. OOOOHHHH SHHHAAARRRIAAAAHHH! We really have gone down the rabbit hole Establishment clause is quite clear, but hey, at least they are doing it for ALL RELIGIONS here. Nothing like that in the San Jose School district in question here. If all were, perhaps people would have less of a cow if they are part of minorities here.

[rug]

104. Read the test. Misinformation is worse than ignorance.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/403/602

Is there a legitimate, secular, non-religious purpose for the activity?

Does the primary effect of taking a kindergarten class to see Santa Claus either advance or hinnder religious belief and practice?

Does this activity foster excessive entanglement between the kindergarten class and religious concerns?

I can't wait to hear you when they visit the Easter Bunny.

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. Alas the Eastern Bunny shoudl also be visited NOT during school hours

Tell me what is the pedagogical interest in having children leave the school, go down to wherever, have some chocolate and sit on Santa's lap? And yes, a Jewish kid who is 4 or 5 will ask the obvious question, why is it that if I am a good boygirl, santa does not stop at home to leave me a gift? Perhaps you are having a problem understanding how this is a problem. I get it, if you are not a minority this is very normal... and part of the culture. For a 5 year old it can be rather confusing.

And yes, Saint Nick is part of CHRISTMAS. which is a CHRISTIAN celebration.

Now if the school also serves latkes, and plays the dreidel, and have a kwanza celebration... oh wait. But if they did, you could make an argument that perhaps this is just cultural exposure, which kids get a lot of anyway, since this is the MAJORITY RELIGIOUS environment.


And no, an not off. Have an excellent day.

If I had a kid in that school, I would be contacting the ACLU by the way.

[rug]

110. Lol!

I can just imagine how you would explain green beer on St. Patrick's Day.

The fact is, Santa Claus in 2015 America is cultural not religious. The class of 2028 will survive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. Yup, ignore the concerns of minorities

as to St Patrick, that is a drinking holiday in the US, usually done by ADULTS. You keep conflating kindergarden with adults.

So once again, what is the educational goal?

[rug]

113. Correcting you is hardly ignoring the concerns of minorities.

And your implication is both insulting and desperate.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. You are the one conflating adults with children

and you are correcting nobody, but you can keep that illusion.

[rug]

117. Actually, I'm correcting you, directly.

The only conflation I see posted here is between your ill-formed opinions and the law.

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. Keep the illusion

[rug]

119. No, I'll stick with the facts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. Your version of the facts

I know that public school districts have been taken to court over silly shit like this.

Lemmon

 Does the policy in question have a secular purpose?

Perhaps
 Will the policy in question have a primary effect which neither advances nor inhibits
religion?

No, not really, not with kindergarteners, thank you very much. It will leave confused kids behind who do not get to ask things from St Nick and them left under the tree.

 Does the policy in question avoid entangling government and religion?

No, not really, not with kids this young.

From the OP

Sitting on Santa’s lap and asking for presents?
“Please identify what standards that meets in the California Education Code,” she said.

Her question, is precisely the LEMON test.

And from the aforementioned CA Education Code

EDUCATION CODE
SECTION 220-221.1



220. No person shall be subjected to discrimination on the basis of
disability, gender, gender identity, gender expression, nationality,
race or ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, or any other
characteristic that is contained in the definition of hate crimes set
forth in Section 422.55 of the Penal Code in any program or activity
conducted by an educational institution that receives, or benefits
from, state financial assistance or enrolls pupils who receive state
student financial aid.



221. This article shall not apply to an educational institution
that is controlled by a religious organization if the application
would not be consistent with the religious tenets of that
organization. (This is important, since the school in question is a PUBLIC SCHOOL)



221.1. The State Board of Education shall adopt regulations
pursuant to Chapter 3.5 (commencing with Section 11340) of Part 1 of
Division 3 of Title 2 of the Government Code, commonly referred to as
the rulemaking provisions of the Administrative Procedure Act, to
implement this chapter.

So yes, I think the school did the RIGHT THING by stopping this silly exercise. And I applaud them for having the balls to do it.

[longship]

78. I have no problem with Santa.

But heavens to Betsy, I think the culture has enough of Kris Kringle during December. If parents want to take their kiddies to see the old guy, they certainly are welcome to. And if the parents don't wish to, their kids probably pick it up from the culture anyway.

I see no need for the school to schedule this, but see little additional harm if they do.

In other words... Meh!

[Glassunion]

85. I got drunk with Santa once. I'd keep him away from kids too.

Santa is a bad influence on children. However for adults, he is awesome. Really good at beer pong.

[zigby]

93. Sugar AND paganism?!

Won't somebody think of the children~~~!!!!