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cali

(114,904 posts)
Wed May 30, 2012, 03:20 PM May 2012

Pastor gets 2 years for instructing parents to hit their children with wooden rods

MADISON, Wis. (AP) — A Black Earth pastor convicted of conspiracy to commit child abuse for advocating the use of wooden rods to spank children has been sentenced to two years in prison.

Philip Caminiti had been found guilty of eight counts for instructing members of his church that infants and toddlers were not too young to be struck to teach them to behave. He was a pastor at Aleitheia Bible Church, which meets in the homes of its members.

The 55-year-old told investigators his actions were in accordance with biblical teachings.

The Wisconsin State Journal reports ( ) Caminiti will be on extended supervision for six years after his release. He was also ordered Friday not to have contact with the church and have no leadership role in any church.

<snip>

http://www.necn.com/05/26/12/Wis-Earth-pastor-gets-2-years-in-child-
a/landing_nation.html?&apID=9f2dab1d94974a3ea30eb1e7ed1637c2

More detail:

A Dane County Wisconsin jury took a mere two hours to come to their verdict regarding the 54-year-old pastor’s fate. The short deliberation time was probably attributed to the fact that the case revolved around the beatings of young children, speculates Assistant District Attorney Shelly Rusch.

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As leader of the Aleitheia Bible Church, Caminiti would instruct church members and his own adult children to beat crying infants and toddlers with wooden spoons and dowels on their bare bottoms. According to the pastor, the bible encouraged these types of disciplinary beatings in order to punish an infant or toddler who was crying a “selfish” manner. Assistant District Attorney Shelly Rusch debated during Caminiti’s trial that his teachings took discipline to a level that was obscene. “What we have here are babies and children trying to develop into individuals,” Rusch told the jury in her closing argument, “and it’s being beaten out of them.”

Caminiti’s charges allege that two of the children beaten by followers of his doctrine were only two months old. When the beatings were stopped by authorities in 2010, the oldest victim was only five years old.

Ironically, the pastor was well aware that the punishments were illegal and instructed congregants to never strike their children while out in public. He never personally participated in carrying out the abuse himself.

<snip>

http://newsone.com/1952855/philip-caminiti-black-earth/

25 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Pastor gets 2 years for instructing parents to hit their children with wooden rods (Original Post) cali May 2012 OP
They Should Turn The Bunco Squads On These People, Too, Ma'am The Magistrate May 2012 #1
Without more, I doubt this conviction can survive on appeal. Romulox May 2012 #2
I don't know. They convicted him on conspiracy charges cali May 2012 #3
Conspiracy is generally a) agreement to commit a crime; and b)some substantial action in furtherance Romulox May 2012 #4
So you're saying that the judge in this case, wrongly instructed the jury and cali May 2012 #5
Simply not enough information in any of the linked stories. Which is why I said "without more". Romulox May 2012 #6
Here's an action gratuitous May 2012 #11
Right. But your hypo includes both an agreement and an overt action in furtherance... nt Romulox May 2012 #14
The congregants agreed with pastor torturechild gratuitous May 2012 #15
Look, I'm not defending this creep, AT ALL. My interest was whether or not the conviction will hold Romulox May 2012 #16
Actually, there is no mention of him taking ANY action directly oldernwiser May 2012 #19
On the other hand oldernwiser May 2012 #20
The lines between the Christian fundamentalists and the Taliban are growing thinner every day. Initech May 2012 #7
Isn't there this famous Christian who isntructs parents to spank their child? sakabatou May 2012 #8
That's Michael Pearl XemaSab May 2012 #13
That's the person I'm thinking of. sakabatou May 2012 #18
Spare the rod? wendylaroux May 2012 #9
The Presbyterian minister across the street whips his 4 kids. dixiegrrrrl May 2012 #22
Unfortunately, some parents don't know the true meaning of the word 'discipline'. AverageJoe90 Jun 2012 #25
No Child's Behind LiberalEsto May 2012 #10
I could never understand ... 1StrongBlackMan May 2012 #12
heh - lucky you! Sometimes, I had to cut the stick off the tree for my own beatings. oldernwiser May 2012 #21
Ohhhh ... 1StrongBlackMan May 2012 #23
I was wondering whether Black Earth was a community or a sect slackmaster May 2012 #17
Alex, I'll take "People Who Make Jesus Cry" for $2,000. nt DCKit Jun 2012 #24

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
1. They Should Turn The Bunco Squads On These People, Too, Ma'am
Wed May 30, 2012, 03:30 PM
May 2012

A great deal of what passes for preaching here is bald-faced crime.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
2. Without more, I doubt this conviction can survive on appeal.
Wed May 30, 2012, 03:30 PM
May 2012

Because of the First Amendment's guarantee of Free Speach, "Conspiracy" cannot be mere words (even morally repugnant words)--it requires some sort of action in addition to those words.

The article doesn't mention any such action that would take this out of the realm of protected speech. For this conviction to stand, there needs to be more. Perhaps it is there, but not being adequately reported.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
3. I don't know. They convicted him on conspiracy charges
Wed May 30, 2012, 03:32 PM
May 2012

I think that takes it out of the realm of free speech. It's not my understanding that there needs to be anything beyond words, but maybe someone else can clear that up.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
4. Conspiracy is generally a) agreement to commit a crime; and b)some substantial action in furtherance
Wed May 30, 2012, 03:36 PM
May 2012

"It's not my understanding that there needs to be anything beyond words, but maybe someone else can clear that up."

Your understanding is incomplete then. See, e.g. the First Amendment to the US Constitution.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
5. So you're saying that the judge in this case, wrongly instructed the jury and
Wed May 30, 2012, 03:38 PM
May 2012

that you know more than said judge? I take it you're an attorney?

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
6. Simply not enough information in any of the linked stories. Which is why I said "without more".
Wed May 30, 2012, 03:41 PM
May 2012

I definitely think there may be more facts here that the reporter is missing, which is why I posited that there may very well be some legally operative facts that are missing here.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
11. Here's an action
Wed May 30, 2012, 04:05 PM
May 2012
Ironically, the pastor was well aware that the punishments were illegal and instructed congregants to never strike their children while out in public.


So, even though he didn't personally hold the spoon to torture these infants, he was careful to instruct his accomplices to avoid committing their crimes where they might be seen. That looks like an action intended to avoid detection to me. And a conspiracy conviction can indeed be based on mere words. If I plan the perfect bank heist, recruit you and your brother Remulox to carry it out and you do, I'm just as guilty of the robbery as you and your brother, even if I never set foot inside the bank.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
15. The congregants agreed with pastor torturechild
Wed May 30, 2012, 04:28 PM
May 2012

And committed overt actions in furtherance of his instructions. Sounds like a conspiracy to me, and a just verdict based on the evidence.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
16. Look, I'm not defending this creep, AT ALL. My interest was whether or not the conviction will hold
Wed May 30, 2012, 04:32 PM
May 2012

up. I think we can all agree that the jury had access to more facts than we have here, and therefore I will assume they got the verdict right, barring any indication to the contrary.

 

oldernwiser

(52 posts)
19. Actually, there is no mention of him taking ANY action directly
Wed May 30, 2012, 05:05 PM
May 2012

There's a bit more information here.

Apparently, his brother plead guilty to abuse charges a while back - presumably following this pastor's advice.

Interesting observation, Romulox.
We can talk about beating our kids senseless, as long as we don't actually do it or plan the act the 1st Amendment covers us.

This might actually be overturned on appeal. In light of the video making the rounds where a 4 year old stands in front of a congregation signing "Ain't no homos in heaven", this case bears watching.

 

oldernwiser

(52 posts)
20. On the other hand
Wed May 30, 2012, 05:42 PM
May 2012

(Jeez, I love the internet!)

I found this definition:

A conspiracy conviction requires proof that a) the conspirators did indeed conspire to commit the crime, and b) the crime was committed by an individual involved in the conspiracy. Proof of which individual it was is usually not necessary.


Which would say - back-handedly - if it's a crime to beat a child with a wooden dowel or spoon, and if a child had in fact been beaten, and if the beating was inspired by Caminiti, then he would be guilty of conspiracy.

At issue would be whether the true conspirator in this case was Caminiti, or the bible.

It would indeed be conspiracy if I laid out a plan to you to rob a bank, and then you actually did it. But would it necessarily hold that I would be guilty of conspiracy if I read to you a plan from a book and you used that to commit the crime? Maybe...

Conspiracy law usually does not require proof of specific intent by the defendants to injure any specific person to establish an illegal agreement. Instead, usually the law only requires the conspirators have agreed to engage in a certain illegal act. This is sometimes described as a "general intent" to violate the law.


Truly an interesting case.

sakabatou

(42,083 posts)
8. Isn't there this famous Christian who isntructs parents to spank their child?
Wed May 30, 2012, 03:50 PM
May 2012

He has some sort of book about it.

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
13. That's Michael Pearl
Wed May 30, 2012, 04:25 PM
May 2012

The Pearls are among the worst human beings ever to walk the earth.

"To Train Up A Child" and "Created To Be His Helpmeet" are at the absolute BOTTOM for books I've ever read. Shit made "Mein Kampf" look like "Green Eggs and Ham."

wendylaroux

(2,925 posts)
9. Spare the rod?
Wed May 30, 2012, 03:51 PM
May 2012

Oh brother, The other mention of rods in the bible are the ones the Shepards used to guide and protect their flock,pretty sure they didn't use them to beat the shit out of them. Horrible people who think it is ok to beat your kid,incredible.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
22. The Presbyterian minister across the street whips his 4 kids.
Wed May 30, 2012, 05:59 PM
May 2012

They get spankings, on a regular basis. Even the 3 year old.

I have watched those darling sweet children grow from being happy and smiling toddlers to being quie, subdued, withdrawn, all within a year after age 4.
The oldest boy, now 11,is a very tense and angry lad, has for years uttered fervent d esires to shoot and kill !!!! rabbits and birds and snakes in the nearby woods. " I hate them all".
his favorite dress up is camo, carrying a bb gun ( which is illegal to shoot in our city).
In all seriousness, Mr. Dixie and I have discussed many times we are watching a serial killer being born.

But, it might not be that bad. Maybe he will just kill his authoritarian dad some day.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
25. Unfortunately, some parents don't know the true meaning of the word 'discipline'.
Fri Jun 1, 2012, 03:25 PM
Jun 2012

And it sure as hell doesn't mean 'beat the stuffing outta kids for losing their homework'.
I mean, come on, man.

When a soldier learns discipline, does it mean he's flagellating himself or degrading himself? Hell no, he's training.....learning. It should be obvious, and I believe the vast majority of us here on DU are aware enough to understand that. Sadly, so many other people still don't.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
12. I could never understand ...
Wed May 30, 2012, 04:21 PM
May 2012

despite being told as a child, "shut up or I'll give you something to really cry about" (a threat never carried out), how any sane person could arrive at the conclusion that hurt/inflicting physical pain on someone, especially a child, is a reasonable way to stop them from crying?

But that said ...

The arw on religiousityness cuntenyous. {S/O}

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
23. Ohhhh ...
Wed May 30, 2012, 07:49 PM
May 2012

Don't get me wrong ... I got more than my share of spankings, most of which were richly deserved; just never for crying.

 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
17. I was wondering whether Black Earth was a community or a sect
Wed May 30, 2012, 04:34 PM
May 2012

It's a village, but it would make a good name for a fanatical religious group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Earth,_Wisconsin

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