If an open carry or concealed carry person is shot on sight

[Photographer]

would the shooter be absolved by law because they felt threatened?

What should be done when guns are seen carried in areas where there's no real reason by civilians?

Sorry, I can't do the poll but...

Call the cops every time was going to be the first poll question.

[randys1]

1. Only cops are allowed to shoot you and kill you for that excuse.

Civilians have a much higher burden of proof ...

[Photographer]

3. Unless you're George Zimmerman...

And then the dead only needs to be black. Packing does not matter that much in FL.

[Lizzie Poppet]

4. Heh...I was about to say:

"Only if the shooter is a cop and the carrier is black."

[valerief]

2. Interesting question. If every open carry asshole was shot because

they made the shooter feel threatened, how would that play out in court. Guess it would have to be a stand-ground shitass state.

One thing we know is if the shooter is a cop, then it's okay in any state.

[elias49]

7. I bet the 'stand-your-ground ideologues

never considered how that could be turned around.
Heh..reap what you sow, tough guys.

[valerief]

17. Remember that black woman in Florida(?) who tried to use

SYG when she shot a gun in the air while her husband(?) was threatening her, and the court wouldn't let her use SYG? I forget how that played out.

I guess SYG only works if you're white.

on edit:
Here it is.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/28/us/marissa-alexander-interview/
Three years in prison and she had to accept a plea bargain.

SYG is a white dude's law, for sure.

[elias49]

22. Oh, I remember! Infuriating! nt

[Waldorf]

29. The CNN story doesn't mention some facts of the case. She went out into the garage to get

the handgun and came back in. The garage door wasn't locked so she could have easily left.She didn't fire in the air, she shot at the wall behind him head high, which then deflected into the ceiling.

[Duckhunter935]

72. why don't you tell ALL of the facts

she went out to the garage and retrieved the weapon from the car. Instead of leaving through the garage door, she went back in and fired the weapon at the mans head just missing her the child. Not to mention, I believe she was breaking a restraining order for being in the home.

[TipTok]

47. Years later everything is still fine...

The promised rivers of blood have yet to appear...

[olddots]

5. gun owners know how to rationalize

being irrational just like smokers .

[OakCliffDem]

6. You are operating in the hypothetical

What we need to do is determine the answer empirically.

Why don't you go proceed to open carry until you are shot, and then report back here with the results.

[Photographer]

8. You're right that it's hypothetical. I don't own a gun.

Do you?

[OakCliffDem]

12. I own a shotgun, a bolt action rifle and a revolver n/t

[Photographer]

16. Good. You can do the test you propose then.

[OakCliffDem]

18. You are the one who asked the question n/t

[Photographer]

21. And you are the one who proposed testing the original question...

[Skittles]

24. please don't give those people any ideas

[Photographer]

25. LOL!

[OakCliffDem]

26. Just trying to help out a fellow Progressive

If you don't want any help, don't post questions to an open forum.

[Photographer]

27. Is your avatar Clive Bundy?

(sorry, just having fun)

[OakCliffDem]

32. My avatar is Lyndon Baines Johnson

36th President of the United States

And just for your information, he was a Democrat

[Photographer]

33. I knew who he was

I was poking fun. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

[LanternWaste]

80. I'd maintain the pretense that my insincerity and absurdity is "just trying to help out" too.

I'd maintain the creative pretense that my insincerity and absurdity is "just trying to help out" too.

[madinmaryland]

9. How is one good guy going to know if the other good guy is actually a good guy.

Maybe the two fucking morans will just shoot each other. Darwin at work!

[ileus]

10. Yeah I'm not sure you can just go around shooting people for your comfort.

Remember CC and OC folks are carrying for a real reason.

[Photographer]

13. No one expects the Inquisition

You're not going to call them out to have a shoot-out at noon in front of the saloon.

[VMA131Marine]

14. Tiny penises?

[Hoyt]

15. A reason in their minds.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

39. What's that real reason?

Besides 'because they can'?

[ileus]

41. Take myself and family for instance.

I happen to believe the lives of myself, my DW and children are reason enough.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

44. You're going to die without carrying a gun?

How many times have you used your gun in however many decades old you are to save your life?

[ileus]

51. Hopefully I'll never need it.

But it's a chance I don't have to take. (well except for "gun free" zones)

As I always say, safety first.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

54. Ah, so your 'real reason' is fear of something that's never happened to you.

The same reason so many police are giving for shooting young black men.

Because they were 'in fear for their lives', despite the men being facing the other way, running away from them, already handcuffed, on the ground having already been shot, and so on.

That doesn't sound like much of a 'real reason'.

[ileus]

58. No my real reason is I love life, and my family...didn't I say that already?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

59. You said you love your life and your family's lives.

Obviously you don't care as much about the lives of other people, if you're willing to take them.

[ileus]

60. Oh yes...the old it's better to die than defend yourself defense.

You got me there...

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

61. There's no 'unless you have to' clause on 'Thou shalt not kill.' nt

[ileus]

65. Oh a Bible scholar...

Sorry I have the moral obligation to protect my family and myself. It's a chance I'm willing to take.


Now I've got to go google Kill and Murder and Bible.

[ileus]

67. see 65....

Damn I hate it when I do that...

[mythology]

74. Statistically speaking, you and your family are far more likely to be harmed by your gun

than by a stranger's gun.

The math is really clear on this fact.

[TeddyR]

76. I question the math

Since it doesn't distinguish between someone who owns a gun and is not a felon, and someone who has a gun in their home and is a drug dealer. I suspect that the family of a drug dealer who owns a gun is much more likely to be shot than the family of a law-abiding citizen who owns a gun.

[TipTok]

79. Has your home ever burned down to the foundation?

Do you own a fire extinguisher? If so, why would you have one if it hasn't happened yet?

[Photographer]

46. "DW?" Does that stand for Death Wish?

[ileus]

49. I always say Darling wife.

Some say it's dear wife...

Eh...half dozen of one, 8 of the other. LOL

[Photographer]

52. If you knew my ex...

[treestar]

11. so many shots more likely

If everyone is carrying, any argument can turn deadly. Two guys get into an argument and know the other has a gun.

[G_j]

19. good question

Though the thought is depressing

[Waldorf]

20. If the open carry or concealed carry was brandishing their firearm in a threatening

manner, sure, its called self defense. If they are just carrying it, you get charged with murder.

[Photographer]

23. That could depend on...

1. What state you live in

2. Witnesses


I'd still prefer calling the cops though on every one of them.

[Old Codger]

37. OK well

If you go to some places and start calling the cops just because someone is open carrying you best have the cops on speed dial and be prepared to spend a lot of time explaining your reasoning to them and convince them that you should no be arrested..

As I stated in another post the idea behind concealed carry is in fact concealment.In fact if you really knew how many people are actually concealed carrying judging by your paranoia you would probably never go out in public...They're everywhere.

[AlinPA]

45. Someone walks into a grocery store holding a .45

or a shotgun and the store manager or a customer hiding a gun shoots the guy carrying I see no problem.

[Waldorf]

48. If the person carrying the .45 has it in their holster or concealed and have not threatened

anyone they have committed murder.

If the person walks in with a shotgun slung over their shoulder and have not threatened anyone with it they have committed murder.

It has become very common now in the States that open carry is legal.

[AlinPA]

50. What if is not holstered or slung over the shoulder?

That's my point

[Waldorf]

55. That would be brandishing and considered a threat. Totally different scenario.

[Agnosticsherbet]

28. In a stand your ground state it would depend on the court.

But that could happen for open carry. Unless a concealed carry person flames his weapon no one would know.

[Photographer]

34. Coats move, people bend over, a Glock is not all that easy to hide in the Summer.

[TipTok]

56. If you shoot a guy who had a holstered weapon..

... You had better have one hell of a lawyer.

[Agnosticsherbet]

77. The problem comes where statutes state feeling threatened.

Stand your ground is nothing more that the right to kill out of fear.

They are abysmally bad law.

[TipTok]

78. There is a reasonableness standard...

While it isn't set in stone, it would be damn difficult to explain how you reasonably felt fear for your life from a person whose only fault was a slip of a jacket or shirt.

[ManiacJoe]

30. The threat must be "reasonable" in the eyes of the law.

In most jurisdictions, that means:
ability - The attacker needs the ability to kill or cripple you (normally the possession of a weapon)
opportunity - The attacker as the ability to use the weapon on you (you are in range)
jeopardy - Through actions or words, the attacker as expressed a desire to harm you.

The mere presence of a gun in a holster does not meet the standard by any stretch of the imagination.

Before any "stand your ground" laws start to apply, you must first meet this requirement for legal self defense.

[Old Codger]

31. The Basic concept

Of concealed carry is to be concealed, anyone who open carries is stupid in my book.And are prime targets.

The rules for the right to use lethal force is that a reasonable person feels that they or another person is in danger of death or severe bodily harm, most states do not have a"stand your ground" law... most do have some sort of "castle" doctrine which says you have no duty to retreat from you own home.

Mostly states say that in the public you have a duty to retreat if you can do so safely....

[B2G]

35. If you shot them, you would be carrying too.

Dumb question.

[Photographer]

36. Part of the obvious irony of carrying in a civilized society.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

38. Police gunned down a guy near here in Dayton for carrying a gun he'd picked up off the shelf at

that same store, presumably to buy. They got away with it, despite, I'm told, Ohio being open carry. Shot him down within seconds of contact, before he even realized they were talking to him. Of course he was black. Had he been white, they might have gotten in some trouble, but then again, they probably wouldn't have shot him in the first place.

[Photographer]

40. Shit like that is happening way too often. n/t

[TeddyR]

42. If someone is carrying concealed

Then why would you feel threatened, since you presumably wouldn't know the person was carrying. Not a fan of open carry, but I'm more comfortable with someone carrying a sidearm in a holster than someone walking down the street with a M-4 over their shoulder.

[Photographer]

43. I don't know how many times I've spotted "hidden"

shoulder holsters, Leg straps and even guns jammed into the small of the back or tucked into front pockets. Concealed does not mean invisible.

[TeddyR]

57. Not trying to be difficult

At all, but where do you live? I live in Virginia, which has fairly liberal gun laws, and in the (long ago) lived in Montana, and I legitimately cannot recall noticing someone carrying concealed. The only time I notice someone carrying a gun is when I'm in DC, and that's only because every other person in DC seems to belong to some federal law enforcement group (DHS, FBI, Secret Service, etc.) and is openly carrying a weapon.

[woodsprite]

53. Leave the establishment, then let them know why you left. n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

62. I have an idea... why don't you move to an open carry state and shoot the first person you see

who's carrying a weapon, then let us know how it works out for ya. Since you're fantasizing about shooting someone, I think that's the way you should go about it. I'll send care packages.

Look for someone like this... by the way I'm pretty certain this person isn't trying to extend her penis with a gun.

[Photographer]

63. Hate to say it but if the camera there was a gun with ill intentions...

and I don't own a gun so it couldn't happen.

[cherokeeprogressive]

64. Why do you fantasize about it then? YOU'RE the person talking about shooting someone.

[Photographer]

68. Lame.

[cherokeeprogressive]

69. Not nearly as lame as starting threads where you fantasize about shooting people.

Seriously... what makes you think about shooting people on principle? You used the phrase "shot on sight". Is it something you've contemplated for a long time? That's kind of scary actually.

Could it be you simply started this thread in an attempt to stir up some shit?

It's got to be one or the other; you either fantasize about shooting people or seeing them get shot to satisfy some morbid curiosity, or you're stirring up shit. YOU started the thread. Which is it?

[Photographer]

70. Considering YOU are the only one to make this inference

I will politely decline your supposition.

[cherokeeprogressive]

71. That's what I'd say too.

[smirkymonkey]

81. I can't imagine what it would be like to live with the paranoia that would

make me feel that I needed to carry a gun with me just to run my daily errands. People like this are just insane.

[cherokeeprogressive]

82. Yeah but most people don't fantasize about shooting them on sight. That's just as insane. n/t

[X_Digger]

73. You do understand that 'I was afraid' is not a valid excuse, regardless of morons on TV, right?

This comes back to the 'reasonable man' standard. Would a reasonable person in similar circumstances apprehend imminent grave bodily harm or death.

Free clue: Just seeing someone with a gun on their hip or shoulder doesn't count.

[Kang Colby]

75. This has never actually happened.

Kind of reminds me of gun laws, never actually being effective.