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Wed Nov 25, 2015, 07:33 AM

 

Why did Turkey shoot down that Russian plane?

As evidence mounts that the Russian jet destroyed yesterday had not actually entered Turkish airspace, the question arises as to why the Turks attacked it at all? Former NATO commander, General Wesley Clark, offers what may be to some a quite surprising explanation.




The Islamic State flag flies over a compound in the Turkish city of Tal Abyad in June, 2015


Foul Play: Turkey May Have Always Been Supporting ISIL


Turkey is interested in preserving the Islamic State, former NATO commander in Europe Ret. General Wesley Clark told CNN.

"Letís be very clear: ISIS [ISIL] is not just a terrorist organization, it is a Sunni terrorist organization. It means it blocks and targets Shia, and that means itís serving the interests of Turkey and Saudi Arabia even as it poses a threat to them," Clark said.

He also hinted that Turkey could be dealing in oil illegally produced and traded by the Islamic State forces.

"All along thereís always been the idea that Turkey was supporting ISIS in some wayÖ Someoneís buying that oil that ISIS [ISIL] is selling, itís going through somewhere. It looks to me like itís probably going through Turkey, but the Turks have never acknowledged it," Clark said.

(snip)




Read more at: http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151125/1030724153/turkey-isil-support.html



(Update)


It appears that at least some in the German press agree whole-heartedly with General Clark's assessment of the situation.


NATO's defense of Turkey, after it shot down a Russian jet which was fighting terrorism, is testament to the fear in the alliance that Moscow's involvement in the fight against the Islamic State in Syria will lead to the discovery of Turkey's links to the terrorist organization, the German press wrote on Wednesday.

The NATO alliance sees the Russian campaign to defeat terrorism in Syria as an unwelcome development because it reveals the extent of its collaboration with the terrorists, Deutsche Wirtschafts Nachrichten (DWN) wrote on Wednesday.

"NATO is extremely nervous, because it has realized that in the event of a Russian victory in Syria, the truth about the relationship between NATO member Turkey and the Islamic State will come to light," wrote DWN.

Turkey shot down a Russian Su-24 fighter jet over Syrian airspace on Tuesday, where its pilots were carrying out antiterrorism operations against the Islamic State. One pilot died as a result of the attack, and the second surviving pilot is currently at an air base in Syria.

(snip)



Read more at: http://sputniknews.com/world/20151125/1030724044/nato-turkey-syria-islamic-state.html



84 replies, 5102 views

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Reply Why did Turkey shoot down that Russian plane? (Original post)
another_liberal Nov 2015 OP
Tarheel_Dem Nov 2015 #1
another_liberal Nov 2015 #2
muriel_volestrangler Nov 2015 #14
Raster Nov 2015 #43
newblewtoo Nov 2015 #56
Stardust Nov 2015 #73
bemildred Nov 2015 #27
marble falls Nov 2015 #47
bemildred Nov 2015 #51
KingCharlemagne Nov 2015 #59
bemildred Nov 2015 #61
Waiting For Everyman Nov 2015 #3
another_liberal Nov 2015 #6
Waiting For Everyman Nov 2015 #9
KingCharlemagne Nov 2015 #66
Arneoker Nov 2015 #4
Kilgore Nov 2015 #5
another_liberal Nov 2015 #7
Kilgore Nov 2015 #8
GreatGazoo Nov 2015 #24
Aria36 Nov 2015 #16
Kilgore Nov 2015 #25
Aria36 Nov 2015 #62
MattSh Nov 2015 #28
Kilgore Nov 2015 #31
hobbit709 Nov 2015 #10
KingCharlemagne Nov 2015 #60
DetlefK Nov 2015 #11
another_liberal Nov 2015 #13
Aria36 Nov 2015 #20
DetlefK Nov 2015 #21
Aria36 Nov 2015 #23
DetlefK Nov 2015 #32
Aria36 Nov 2015 #57
jeff47 Nov 2015 #65
SunSeeker Nov 2015 #12
muriel_volestrangler Nov 2015 #15
SunSeeker Nov 2015 #18
another_liberal Nov 2015 #17
SunSeeker Nov 2015 #19
another_liberal Nov 2015 #39
SunSeeker Nov 2015 #44
FlatBaroque Nov 2015 #48
SunSeeker Nov 2015 #53
LanternWaste Nov 2015 #34
another_liberal Nov 2015 #38
randome Nov 2015 #41
Lee-Lee Nov 2015 #36
another_liberal Nov 2015 #37
jeff47 Nov 2015 #67
Codeine Nov 2015 #69
Oneironaut Nov 2015 #22
another_liberal Nov 2015 #40
FlatBaroque Nov 2015 #50
Facility Inspector Nov 2015 #26
Fred Sanders Nov 2015 #29
Fast Walker 52 Nov 2015 #42
snooper2 Nov 2015 #58
SidDithers Nov 2015 #30
randome Nov 2015 #46
Codeine Nov 2015 #70
BeyondGeography Nov 2015 #33
mountain grammy Nov 2015 #35
Demeter Nov 2015 #45
another_liberal Nov 2015 #83
starroute Nov 2015 #49
FlatBaroque Nov 2015 #52
tblue37 Nov 2015 #54
another_liberal Nov 2015 #82
cheapdate Nov 2015 #55
MADem Nov 2015 #63
ColesCountyDem Nov 2015 #64
KingCharlemagne Nov 2015 #68
ColesCountyDem Nov 2015 #75
Mendocino Nov 2015 #71
another_liberal Nov 2015 #81
wilt the stilt Nov 2015 #72
another_liberal Nov 2015 #84
Todays_Illusion Nov 2015 #74
another_liberal Nov 2015 #80
gwheezie Nov 2015 #76
another_liberal Nov 2015 #77
KamaAina Nov 2015 #78
another_liberal Nov 2015 #79

Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 07:46 AM

1. Sputnik? Again?

Sputnik is an international multimedia news service launched on 10 November 2014 by Rossiya Segodnya, an agency wholly owned and operated by the Russian government, which was created by a Decree of the President of Russia on December 9, 2013.[2] Sputnik replaces the RIA Novosti news agency on an international stage (which remains active in Russia)[3] and Voice of Russia.

Radio Sputnik is the audio element of the platform and aims to "operate in 30 languages in 2015, for a total of over 800 hours a day, covering over 130 cities and 34 countries on "FM, DAB/DAB+ (Digital Radio Broadcasting), HD Radio, as well as mobile phones and the Internet."[4]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_%28news_agency%29

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 07:57 AM

2. You use your sources . . .

 

And I will judge whether or not I believe them. I suggest you do the same in regard to those sources I choose to quote.

Now that we have that taken care of, do you have any comment on what General Clark and the German newspaper had to say?

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #2)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:34 AM

14. Here's what Clark said in full - strangely, SputnikNews left out the criticism of Assad and Putin

CNN: This has to do with the complexity of the conflict in Syria. President Obama said today this illustrates the ongoing problem with the Russian operations. The president suggested that if Russia was actually targeting ISIS, in areas that ISIS controlled, this might not have happened.

Clark: Well, that's exactly right. This is the larger context. What you have here is no political agreement. So you have these countries trying to work together, and obfuscate the fundamental underlying disagreement. Letís be very clear: ISIS is not just a terrorist organization, it is a Sunni terrorist organization. That means it blocks and targets Shia, and that means itís serving the interests of Turkey and Saudi Arabia even as it poses a threat to them. Because neither Turkey nor Saudi Arabia want an Iran-Iraq-Syria-Lebanon bridge that isolates Turkey and cuts Saudi Arabia off.

CNN: General, are you suggesting that Vladimir Putin had a point when he said Turkey was in a way aiding ISIS?

Clark: All along thereís always been the idea that Turkey was supporting ISIS in some way. We know they've funnelled people going through Turkey to ISIS. Someoneís buying that oil that ISIS is selling, itís going through somewhere. It looks to me like itís probably going through Turkey, but the Turks haven't acknowledged that. When ISIS got started, it was put together because a group of Sunni zealots were fighting against Bashir Assad, who is aligned with Iran. This is part of the broader struggle in the Middle East. Now, Putin would like to dirty Turkey, by saying it's supporting terrorists, but the truth is he's supporting terrorists. I mean, the tactics used by the Assad regime have been terror tactics. They're Dropping barrel bombs on innocent civilians. So there's no, let's say, 'good guy' in this. This is a power struggle for the future of the Middle East, using terror tactics and terrorists.

http://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/11/24/russia-turkey-nato-relations-lead-clark-live.cnn

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #14)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:44 AM

43. this one's a knee-slapper: strangely, SputnikNews left out the criticism of Assad and Putin


"yes, but how many goals did Comrade...er, I mean, President Putin score?

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #14)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:51 AM

56. As unimpeachable sources go

I'll be voting to take a pass on both Sputnik and Clark.




"At the beginning of the Kosovo conflict, CounterPunch delved into the military career of General Wesley Clark and discovered that his meteoric rise through the ranks derived from the successful manipulation of appearances: faking the results of combat exercises, greasing to superiors and other practices common to the general officer corps. We correctly predicted that the unspinnable realities of a real war would cause him to become unhinged. Given that Clark attempted to bomb the CNN bureau in Belgrade and ordered the British General Michael Jackson to engage Russian troops in combat at the end of the war, we feel events amply vindicated our forecast.

"With the end of hostilities it has become clear even to Clark that most people, apart from some fanatical members of the war party in the White House and State Department, consider the general, as one Pentagon official puts it, 'a horse's ass.' Defense Secretary William Cohen is known to loathe him, and has seen to it that the Hammer of the Serbs will be relieved of the Nato command two months early."

This is the guy who received the Kosovo Campaign Medal after having been granted a waiver, although according to an article in Stars and Stripes (European addition), no one seems to know who granted the waiver in time for the general to get the first medal awarded. Even though he led the international alliance in its 78-day blitz against Yugoslavia, the waiver was necessary because General Clark's service did not meet the criteria for the award which required service in the actual theater of operation. It appears that Clark made no effort to secure similar waivers for the thousands of service personnel who supported the effort from bases outside the combat zone.

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/jatras12.html


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Response to newblewtoo (Reply #56)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 12:54 PM

73. I've heard him referred to as "Weasely Clark."

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:06 AM

27. The views of the Russian government do seem relevant in this situation. nt

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Response to bemildred (Reply #27)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:54 AM

47. If we could only be able to discern those views.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #47)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:19 AM

51. Well, reading what they have to say can help. nt

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Response to bemildred (Reply #27)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:07 AM

59. Lavrov called it "a planned provocation," i.e., premeditated. Erdogan channeling

 

Ottoman Empire reveries AGAINST A NUCLEAR GREAT POWER!!!

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #59)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:15 AM

61. Well, I think they had encouragement.

And Russia seems to allow that Happyslug's point that it might not have been Erdogan behind it has merit. Or at least they want to offer such a fig leaf to Erdogan.

But it seems clear Putin wants to use the opportunity to close the Syria-Turkey border, and Syrian air space, and to kick Erdogan in the nuts some more to accomplish that.

Personally, I'm starting to think Putin set them up, was waiting for it.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:03 AM

3. There's something very wrong with that incident.

My first reaction is that it was very unnecessary and uncalled for to shoot down that jet. On the other hand, if as the Turks say, the Russians are repeatedly targeting anti-Assad Free Syria rebels, then they deserve protection too.

I don't like it from any angle, but at the bottom line of it, I think the Turks are very shady and likely playing both sides at once, as Clark says.

The timing is interesting.

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Response to Waiting For Everyman (Reply #3)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:10 AM

6. Their dream of a revived Ottaman Empire is over . . .

 

Assad has taken the offensive, their pet extremist jihadi groups are on the run and their lucrative black market in terrorist oil has been bombed into ruin. They are extremely angry, and perhaps stupid enough to think a military confrontation with Russia will solve everything. I think they are in for a big surprise.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #6)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:19 AM

9. It's certainly the stupidest thing I've seen a nation do

in I don't know when. Agree, that a big surprise for the Turks is very likely.

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Response to Waiting For Everyman (Reply #9)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:41 AM

66. My jaw hit the floor yesterday morning when I first learned of it. Turkey

 

stood and stands to lose far more than it could ever gain by such a provocation.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:03 AM

4. Do I believe that NATO is trying to suppress a Double Game by Turkey?

Why would I, when the double game by Pakistan has been news for years? Who was suppressing THAT?

As it is, Turkey's motives ARE being questioned, although typically not in such lurid fashion.

I choose not to believe this propaganda.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:05 AM

5. Propoganda

Sputnik News is an arm of the Russian government and it replaced Voice of Russia.

Think of it this way, would you consider Voice of America as an unbiased news source?

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Response to Kilgore (Reply #5)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:11 AM

7. Is General Clark a branch of the Russian government too?

 

Is CNN? That's who is quoted, right?

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #7)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:17 AM

8. Most news networks are probably crap and biased

But for sure one owned by the freaking Russian government is.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #7)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:57 AM

24. for some reason ad hominem attacks are often treated as a refutation of what was said here

Killing the messenger and all that. It is odd. Logical fallacies used to be called out on DU, now they are SOP.

Really derails a discussion of the facts if you let it.



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Response to Kilgore (Reply #5)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:36 AM

16. heres the link to CNN

 

Gen Clark did say this. I trust Gen Clark's knowledge on this as a NATO commander.

https://m.


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Response to Aria36 (Reply #16)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:03 AM

25. Looks like Sputnik took advantage of a convenient news piece

And cherry picked what they wanted, leaving out the parts critical to Putin. Perfectly understandable considering Sputnik is an arm of Russian government.

Regarding Clarks opinion. It may or may not be reasonable. Future facts will tell.

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Response to Kilgore (Reply #25)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:20 AM

62. Well, Clark would know IMO

 

Better than any of us just speculating on the Internet. As NATO commander, he dealt w/Turkey on a daily basis & should have a good idea of their motivations & activities. Sputnick didn't include the anti-Putin stuff, but the quote is correct.

here's a better source that says basically the same thing:

"The shift in focus is a significant drawback for Erdogan. Years of support for, and investment in, Islamic fundamentalist groups like Jabhat al-Nusra (Al-Qaedaís affiliate in Syria) and Ahrar al-Sham are about to go to waste. Ankara has played a significant role in allowing Isis and other jihadists to flourish in Syria and the region. Turkey has acquiesced to jihadist groups entering Syria via Turkey as well as their use of Turkey as a transit point for smuggling arms and funds into Syria."

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/turkey-has-spent-years-allowing-jihadist-groups-to-flourish-so-beware-its-real-reasons-for-shooting-a6747161.html

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Response to Kilgore (Reply #5)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:07 AM

28. What's an unbiased news source?

Serious question...

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Response to MattSh (Reply #28)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:14 AM

31. Wish I had an answer

In my opinion, there are none.

The best we can do is take in a bunch of sources and try to distill out what passes as truth.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:19 AM

10. The Turks have long been touchy about their borders.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #10)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:10 AM

60. LOL. Going back to at least, oh, 1914! :) - nt

 

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:22 AM

11. Russia was bombing Turkey's turkmen allies in Syria.

Stop pretending that Russia is fighting ISIS in Syria. Russia is fighting anybody who threatens Assad's rule because Russia needs Assad in power to control the syrian seaports to the Mediterranean.

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #11)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:33 AM

13. Turkmen allies who machine gun pilots after they eject from their plane?

 

Turkmen allies who then celebrate on video while arguing about how it would have been better to burn him alive rather than shoot him? Those Turkmen allies?

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #13)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:40 AM

20. so they chose a more moderate method than ISIS

 

Because they're moderate rebels.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #13)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:46 AM

21. Well, unlike Russia's syrian ally they aren't barrel-bombing civilian areas.

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #21)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:53 AM

23. lf they got the power

 

What makes you believe they wouldn't? There's no problem committing war crimes (shooting pilots).

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Response to Aria36 (Reply #23)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:15 AM

32. These actions aren't even remotely comparable.

Being in a warzone (where everybody is armed and everybody is trying to kill you) is different from dropping bombs on your voters.



If we exclude everybody who has recently commited war-crimes or similar gruesome acts of injustice, which groups from the Syria-theater are left over?

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #32)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:53 AM

57. Exactly

 

There's no "good guys" here IMO & our search for one might lead us to make some strange, harmful alliances.

These guys are Turkish rebels in a Turkish region of Syria. The Turkmen are "their voters" (supporters). If they somehow ended up ruling Damascus, ISIS & the other Sunni rebels surrounding that city probably wouldn't be too happy. Not to mention the Shiites & many Assad supporters in that region. To hold it, they'd end up bombing people too. (Unless there's some moral objection - no sign of that so far).

And how would they treat their vanquished foes (Assad army, other rebels)? POW camps, forgiveness, or execution? How can we be so sure that life under one of these rebel groups would be any better than life under Assad's regime? IMO it could be much, much worse - see, e.g. ISIS.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #13)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:40 AM

65. Your outrage would be more believable if you also included the civilians Russia is bombing.

Russia is bombing anti-Assad rebels with "dumb" bombs. They miss a lot, and kill lots of civilians.

This is a real-life war. Noone's hands are clean.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:31 AM

12. The plane DID go into Turkish airspace, however briefly.

So your article is false, and as others noted up the thread, is a Russian government propaganda piece. Your article also fails to note that the planes was bombing Turkmen rebels at the time, not ISIS fighters. Turkey supports the Turkmen rebels' fight against Asad. Russia supports Asad and most of its bombing missions to date have targeted moderate rebels fighting Asad, not ISIS.

Turkey clearly overreacted to the incursion into their airspace, but Russia has been provoking Turkey since its Syrian air campaign began. Neither side is innocent here.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #12)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:36 AM

15. typo - 'Turkish airspace', not 'Russian airspace' (nt)

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #15)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:38 AM

18. Thanks. Fixed it. nt

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #12)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:36 AM

17. There is satellite evidence that the Russian planes did not enter Turkish territory . . .

 

What you are hearing is Pentagon spin. They have to protect their fellow NATO member, or at least they seem to think it's necessary.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #17)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:39 AM

19. I trust Obama over Putin. nt

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #19)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:36 AM

39. President Obama has some very bad advisors . . .

 

And he is shamelessly lied to.

You can take my word for it, or wait until the history is written.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #39)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:48 AM

44. Amazing how many fans Putin has on DU.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #44)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:16 AM

48. Amazing how you never actually have an argument to make.

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Response to FlatBaroque (Reply #48)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:30 AM

53. Project much?

Try reading the thread. I did give an argument on the topic of the OP. See post 12.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7380761


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Response to another_liberal (Reply #17)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:21 AM

34. Yup... every opinion different than yours is merely spin and propaganda

Yup... every opinion different than yours is merely spin and propaganda, whilst every source which validates your opinion is factual, true and above reproach. Every single time.

Your bias is simply overwhelming any rational thought you allow yourself, and it's nothing very new, is it? No doubt, you'll allege yourself to be rational and objective.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #34)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:34 AM

38. Some opinions which I differ with are indeed that . . .

 

Others, not so much.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #34)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:39 AM

41. Can't put it any better than this.

 


[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #17)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:24 AM

36. Tell me about "satellite evidence" of this. Do you think there is actually real-time video recording

 

Of planes from space?

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #36)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:32 AM

37. Actually it may be ground radar "evidence" . . .

 

That may have been a misunderstanding on my part. At any rate, here is your link:

http://sputniknews.com/military/20151124/1030695406/mod-su-24-flight-path.html

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #37)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:43 AM

67. Sputnik news comes from the Kremlin.

And that's not an exaggeration. They are run by the Russian government. Take any of their reporting with a rock-of-gibraltar-sized grain of salt.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #37)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:47 AM

69. Actually it may be unmitigated bullshit

but you knew that.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 08:51 AM

22. Here's my CT:

A Russian jet was on the way to perform an air strike on something that Turkey didn't want to lose. I think they're dirty. Russian jets have been hunting oil trucks. Hmm...

If true, we need to kick them out of NATO. I bet something like this would never be admitted publicly, though.

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Response to Oneironaut (Reply #22)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:39 AM

40. I agree . . .

 

Turkey has no place in NATO, and that will not likely ever be admitted.

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Response to Oneironaut (Reply #22)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:18 AM

50. Kick them out of NATO???

NATO is salivating for a hot war with Russia. This downing of a Russian plane is great news for NATO. John McCain specifically said he would help bring down a Russian plane.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:05 AM

26. Jive Turkey

 

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:10 AM

29. ACCIDENT. Now back to your regularity scheduled American mass media propaganda trying to

get Americans ready for war.....again.

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Response to Fred Sanders (Reply #29)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:41 AM

42. we are already at war

 

but I guess we can ramp up the war effort still more...

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Response to Fred Sanders (Reply #29)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:54 AM

58. Comrade Putin will not be knocked down- HE WILL RISE TO THE OCCASION!

 

MOTHER RUSSIA IS GREAT AGAIN!

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:14 AM

30. Because it looked like Putin's private jet?...



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #30)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:54 AM

46. Nah, they thought Ed Snowden was making a break for it!

 

[hr][font color="blue"][center]All things in moderation, including moderation.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #30)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:47 AM

70. Ha!

Well played, sir.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:20 AM

33. Because they could

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)


Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:51 AM

45. As I've said before, Ergodan is clinically insane

 

he thinks the world revolves around him and all will bow to his wishes.

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Response to Demeter (Reply #45)

Thu Nov 26, 2015, 06:34 AM

83. Yes, if we arew to judge by this insane attack . . .

 

He may well be insane.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:17 AM

49. This Seymour Hersh article from last year is making the rounds again

It focuses on Turkey's use of the fake sarin attack in 2013 to drag the US and its allies into overthrowing Assad -- as well as what was really going on at Benghazi -- but it seems to shed light on current events as well.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line

(On edit: Fixed the link.)

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Response to starroute (Reply #49)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:20 AM

52. incorrect link?

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:32 AM

54. Remember Sibel Edmonds?

{SNIP}

She had accused a colleague of covering up illicit activity involving Turkish nationals, alleged serious security breaches and cover-ups and that intelligence had been deliberately suppressed, endangering national security.

{SNIP}

According to Edmonds, Gladio B identified, among other things, regular meetings between senior US intelligence and current leader of Al Qaeda Ayman al-Zawahiri at the U.S. embassy in Baku, Azerbaijan between 1997 and 2001, with al-Zawahiri and other mujahideen being transported by NATO aircraft to Central Asia and the Balkans to participate in Pentagon-backed destabilisation operations. She added that in 1997, NATO asked Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak to release from prison Islamist militants affiliated to Ayman al-Zawahiri. They were flown by U.S. intelligence orders to Turkey for training and use in operations by the Pentagon. Additionally, she reported that an Al-Qaeda leader had been training some of the 9-11 hijackers at a base in Turkey. These and related allegations were seemingly confirmed by Sunday Times journalists in 2008 by speaking to Pentagon and MI6 sources. However, according to several sources, the journalists were prevented from publishing many of these allegations when the second half of their four part series was dropped possibly due to pressure from the U.S. State Department. She suggests that the objectives of Gladio B are "projecting U.S. power in the former Soviet sphere of influence to access previously untapped strategic energy and mineral reserves for U.S. and European companies; pushing back Russian and Chinese power; and expanding the scope of lucrative criminal activities, particularly illegal arms and drugs trafficking." Former FBI special agent Dennis Saccher states Edmonds's story "should have been front page news" because it is "a scandal bigger than Watergate.


{SNIP}


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibel_Edmonds

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #54)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 07:19 PM

82. Fascinating stuff!

 

"Prevented from publishing many of these allegations," I'll bet they were! And I'll bet they are still under surveillance too.

Thank you very much for this reply.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:38 AM

55. The simple explanation is the best one.

No legitimate sovereign state would tolerate uninvited armed forays into its territory. The Russians wouldn't and Turkey won't either. The Russian fighter jet was warned to leave, and then it was fired upon.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:27 AM

63. It's not like the Russians have ever stolen a chunk of land from someone, is it?

I mean, they ALWAYS respect national territorial boundaries, don't they?



Since the source of this story is garbage, and the quote from Clark taken out of context, I will wait to hear from someone believable.

You really shouldn't use garbage sources--it reflects on YOU at the end of the day.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:35 AM

64. The animosity between Russia and the Turks is centuries-old.

Basically, the Ottoman Empire used to control the large parts of the former Soviet Union, and also encouraged slave raids into Russia, Poland and the Baltic republics.

Bottom line: Turkey and Russia loathe each other.

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Response to ColesCountyDem (Reply #64)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:43 AM

68. Bottom-bottom line: Russia is a nuclear Great Power, while Turkey is

 

merely a regional hegemon.

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #68)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 01:07 PM

75. Agreed, although both are quite lethal (and capable) forces to be reckoned with.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:59 AM

71. The enemy of my enemy

is my friend, unless the friend of my enemy is also my friend, then my friends enemy is my friends enemies friend, so my friends friend is also my enemies enemy unless my enemies enemies friends enemies are also my friends enemies friends enemy.

There it is, crystal clear!

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Response to Mendocino (Reply #71)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 03:40 PM

81. I intend to quote that . . .

 

It's too good not to share.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 12:02 PM

72. to avoid being Thanksgiving dinner n/t

 

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Response to wilt the stilt (Reply #72)

Thu Nov 26, 2015, 06:36 AM

84. Didn't work . . .

 

They are going to get sliced-up for real quite soon.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 12:58 PM

74. Oil wars not religious wars, once again. Never mind that oil has to replaced if we are to

have a livable planet. They seem to be all wringing the last possible dollar from oil. Imagine if all the money spent on wars for oil were instead spent looking for and creating alternate sources of energy.

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Response to Todays_Illusion (Reply #74)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 03:38 PM

80. We spend a trillion dollars developing yet another high tech jet fighter . . .

 

But only peanuts on developing technologies which can (maybe) save our world.

(sigh)

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 01:21 PM

76. Well turkey has claimed Russia has killed turks

And let's face it Russia has been very aggressive in the past few years.

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Response to gwheezie (Reply #76)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 03:08 PM

77. If those Turkmen (the ethnic group) are in Syria and fighting against the government . . .

 

The Russians may well have attacked them, in Syria. That is not Turkish territory, it is Syrian. Russia is only coming to the aid of a long-time treaty ally, Syria, answering a call for aid by that internationally recognized, sovereign government, which is a full member of the United Nations (no matter how much that may bother some of our leaders).

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 03:28 PM

78. A desperate bid to get Thanksgiving canceled?

 

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #78)

Wed Nov 25, 2015, 03:35 PM

79. It particularly galls the Turks . . .

 

When someone points out that turkeys didn't even originate in Turkey. It's the final indignity.

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