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Mon May 28, 2012, 05:03 PM

 

Police are always right. Do what they say. Trouble is never their fault.

Last edited Sat Jun 2, 2012, 02:34 AM - Edit history (3)

Some here appear to carry this philosophy. I have no concept why this would or should be.

The third video has a telling moment, when the cop says he'll just arrest the subject and let them tell a judge about it tomorrow morning.















Reminding that they are "Law and order puppets, remote-controlled by greed", to quote Devo.

Edit to add more:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002730754

This, and the quote about how much it hurts not to arrest "them":

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002731073

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101730531

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002713201

This just in! Comments section: Cops asquirm because lying and a phony felony charge didn't put DJ in jail! Don't even seem to understand that the NLG saw that the cop LIED. Only seem to care about arresting people.

http://www.policeone.com/Crowd-Control/articles/5677034-Occupy-protester-Week-in-Chicago-jail-was-awesome/

Posted by bhess on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 04:29 PM Pacific Report Abuse
His speaking of integrity is akin to when hookers accuse you of being a liar because you didn't tell them you were a cop. They can lie all they want but if you do, well that's just beyond the pale.

Posted by sgt195 on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 04:14 PM Pacific Report Abuse
If he liked a week; hell let's give him a year he'll really enjoy himself.

Posted by ghostvet on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 04:14 PM Pacific Report Abuse
A cop's word no longer supports probable cause? Gonna be awful hard for arrests and warrants and such.

Posted by djbadback on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 01:27 PM Pacific Report Abuse
USTWO63, Be careful what you wish for.

Posted by ustwo63 on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 12:06 AM Pacific Report Abuse
Oh gee, I only hope Im lucky enough one day to have my daughter find a guy with a great job like this shinning example of society! Professional Protester. Wow, thats really got to spiffy up the ole resume!

Posted by jjohn on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 09:51 AM Pacific Report Abuse
Time to vote the judge out of office.

Posted by KCSO107 on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 08:33 AM Pacific Report Abuse
The Honorable (really ?) Marvin P. Luckman POS...

Posted by LPD679 on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 08:22 AM Pacific Report Abuse
"Johnson, who was in Arizona Tuesday, said Luckman "kind of belittled me, and called me all types of names, but after his tirade, he said he wasn't going to send me to jail.""

Maybe he will sue the judge for defamation of character and another liberal judge will uphold the suit lol
Posted by diggy2121 on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 08:19 AM Pacific Report Abuse
And it starts.... What a douchebag. And the judge too.

Posted by jrlc48 on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 07:44 AM Pacific Report Abuse
Liberal judge, believing this scum bag over an officer.


Remember there, the NLG and several people saw the cop LIE. Why aren't they upset at one of their own besmirching the very law they are supposed to represent?

NYPD vs. CPD: How Police Deal With Press and Protesters

Before the New York Police Department raided Zuccotti Park last year, officers on the scene asked everyone with an NYPD-issued press pass to raise their hand. Most complied, believing they were identifying themselves to officers who would allow them to remain and do their job unimpeded. Instead, those who showed their passes were escorted to a press "safety zone" several blocks away. Photographers and writers who remained (myself included) would later find themselves physically threatened, removed or arrested.

http://www.villagevoice.com/slideshow/nypd-vs-cpd-how-police-deal-with-press-and-protesters-36918686/#1

New video, this one's a hoot:

124 replies, 20665 views

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Arrow 124 replies Author Time Post
Reply Police are always right. Do what they say. Trouble is never their fault. (Original post)
Fire Walk With Me May 2012 OP
RedCappedBandit May 2012 #1
zbdent May 2012 #7
SidDithers May 2012 #2
sabrina 1 May 2012 #9
U4ikLefty May 2012 #43
girl gone mad May 2012 #53
orpupilofnature57 May 2012 #3
treestar May 2012 #5
orpupilofnature57 May 2012 #16
sabrina 1 May 2012 #6
Egalitarian Thug May 2012 #25
orpupilofnature57 May 2012 #59
treestar May 2012 #4
sabrina 1 May 2012 #8
orpupilofnature57 May 2012 #60
Iggo May 2012 #10
nobodyspecial May 2012 #11
Fire Walk With Me May 2012 #17
randome May 2012 #19
Egalitarian Thug May 2012 #29
randome May 2012 #33
Egalitarian Thug May 2012 #58
randome May 2012 #61
sabrina 1 May 2012 #44
randome May 2012 #55
sabrina 1 May 2012 #70
randome May 2012 #72
sabrina 1 May 2012 #79
Archae May 2012 #12
Fire Walk With Me May 2012 #18
Egalitarian Thug May 2012 #31
boppers May 2012 #13
U4ikLefty May 2012 #20
randome May 2012 #21
boppers May 2012 #24
randome May 2012 #27
boppers May 2012 #30
boppers May 2012 #23
boppers May 2012 #26
sabrina 1 May 2012 #45
boppers May 2012 #50
sabrina 1 May 2012 #52
boppers May 2012 #56
sabrina 1 May 2012 #69
boppers May 2012 #71
pinboy3niner May 2012 #77
boppers May 2012 #80
pinboy3niner May 2012 #84
boppers May 2012 #91
sabrina 1 May 2012 #82
boppers May 2012 #83
sabrina 1 May 2012 #85
boppers May 2012 #92
sabrina 1 May 2012 #93
boppers Jun 2012 #105
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #110
boppers Jun 2012 #113
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #114
boppers Jun 2012 #117
sabrina 1 May 2012 #101
boppers Jun 2012 #106
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #109
boppers Jun 2012 #112
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #115
boppers Jun 2012 #118
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #119
ProgressiveProfessor May 2012 #14
MichaelMcGuire May 2012 #15
U4ikLefty May 2012 #22
Fire Walk With Me May 2012 #28
randome May 2012 #34
pintobean May 2012 #39
randome May 2012 #40
Mc Mike May 2012 #67
sabrina 1 May 2012 #48
randome May 2012 #54
sabrina 1 May 2012 #68
boppers May 2012 #32
U4ikLefty May 2012 #35
boppers May 2012 #36
U4ikLefty May 2012 #38
boppers May 2012 #42
U4ikLefty May 2012 #46
boppers May 2012 #51
me b zola May 2012 #37
Fumesucker May 2012 #41
Fire Walk With Me May 2012 #76
nadine_mn May 2012 #47
sabrina 1 May 2012 #49
Fire Walk With Me May 2012 #73
SecurityManager May 2012 #57
randome May 2012 #62
SecurityManager May 2012 #63
randome May 2012 #64
Fire Walk With Me May 2012 #74
Tom Rinaldo May 2012 #65
99Forever May 2012 #66
Fire Walk With Me May 2012 #75
Life Long Dem May 2012 #78
Fire Walk With Me May 2012 #96
Life Long Dem May 2012 #98
randome May 2012 #99
NCTraveler May 2012 #81
Fire Walk With Me May 2012 #87
MineralMan May 2012 #89
NCTraveler May 2012 #95
NCTraveler Jun 2012 #124
MineralMan May 2012 #86
Fire Walk With Me May 2012 #88
randome May 2012 #90
Mc Mike May 2012 #94
Fire Walk With Me May 2012 #97
Mc Mike Jun 2012 #103
Fire Walk With Me Jun 2012 #120
Mc Mike Jun 2012 #123
randome May 2012 #100
sabrina 1 May 2012 #102
Mc Mike Jun 2012 #104
pintobean Jun 2012 #107
Mc Mike Jun 2012 #108
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #116
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #111
Fire Walk With Me Jun 2012 #121
Mc Mike Jun 2012 #122

Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:08 PM

1. Oh, they're all just bad apples

Most cops are wonderful people!

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Response to RedCappedBandit (Reply #1)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:22 PM

7. lone wolves ...

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:10 PM

2. Occupy is never wrong. If anything bad happens, it's agents provacateurs...

Absolutes are fun.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #2)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:40 PM

9. Well, lets say the evidence shows that the ratio of wrongdoing re OWS V Cops, is approx. 99 - 1

according to all the evidence so far. Ask all the journalists who were arrested and brutalized by cops how they feel about all this. Actually you don't have to, you just have to do a little research. Ask Reporters Without Borders, or the UN not to mention all the Civil Liberties Organizations what the story is.

Fortunately now as the cases against Occupiers finally reach the courts, you can start checking the court records also.

Two cases dismissed last week against Occupiers. Cops found to have lied, not only when making arrests, but under oath. Nothing about this is a surprise to American's Minority Communities, however, or when it comes to the NYPD.

More will be coming, and hopefully we will finally get some real investigations into the criminal, and lying under oath is criminal here, activities of our out of control, militarized police departments.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #2)

Tue May 29, 2012, 12:41 AM

43. Obama is never wrong. If anything bad happens, it's the Republicans....

Absolutes are fun.

U4ikLefty

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #43)

Tue May 29, 2012, 03:10 AM

53. Touché.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:11 PM

3. I took a Human Rights and Civil Liberties class 1976

 

Our teacher told us you are as free and have as many rights as the policeman in front wants you to have .Only in a courtroom or ballot box ,are we free and have rights .

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #3)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:18 PM

5. A very uneducated teacher

Missed out on the entire judicial system and its existence.

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Response to treestar (Reply #5)

Mon May 28, 2012, 08:35 PM

16. I think "Courtroom" covered that.

 

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #3)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:20 PM

6. Very smart teacher as we have all learned.

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #3)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:05 PM

25. Theory vs, practice. n/t

 

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #25)

Tue May 29, 2012, 07:13 AM

59. Was the point ,Thanks.

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:18 PM

4. No one has said that

But some have said the equally absurd opposite.

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Response to treestar (Reply #4)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:33 PM

8. There are good cops, I know some personally, and they agree with the OP btw, the good ones.

But they know what speaking out does to a good cop. See what happened in the now high-profile case in NYC when a good cop did the right thing.

You can read about it here. http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Adrian+Schoolcraft/

Fortunately with the public now being less willing to look the other way when it comes to bad cops, especially with so many members of the public now victims of their abuse, and the journalists who refused to leave this story alone, it looks like this good cop, sent to a mental institution, after blowing the whistle on the bad cops, and there were so many of them, will be vindicated. But it took a while. His case is the reason why the good cops remain silent.

Meantime the NYPD continued its bigotry against minority communities, its corruption etc. I guess getting over $4 million dollars fro Morgan Chase kind of helped them decide whose side they were on when protesters against the corruption on Wall Street began.

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Response to treestar (Reply #4)

Tue May 29, 2012, 07:26 AM

60. Sounds like you talk to some all of the time

 

and none as much.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:43 PM

10. Yay, Cops!

They're the best!

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:45 PM

11. I'm bored today

I think I'll start some shit with people by posting an absurd claim no one has ever made.

Then, I'll pretend I'm actually doing something important by "occupying" DU and harassing those who do not share my opinion or world view.

And, go ahead and attack. It's just the red meat you and your friends are looking for today.

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #11)

Mon May 28, 2012, 09:33 PM

17. I'll actually address this!

 

1. It's sarcasm.

2. It's factual.

3. It's important.

4. If you don't share this fact-based stance (not opinion), you may wish to consider the facts I've presented here. I can tell you that when you stand up for your 1st Amendment rights, you stand an extremely good chance of being beaten and arrested. That's not fine with me and I'd hope it's not fine with anyone else. That's a little thing I have about freedom and the Constitution. If anyone feels guilty for not standing up and risking being arrested and beaten for the betterment of the country, that is easily changed.

5. All are welcome to not share these facts and concerns. But do not then complain when then eventually involve you.

6. Posting facts is not an attack.

7. I do not believe we are supposed to post personalized responses on DU.

8. Cop apologists, in the face of what is real and actual, are attacking ME and those who are working for the betterment of the country along clear lines. This is bizarre beyond perception. If people hate Occupy, put it on ignore. But fighting against it? Occupy is a democratic engine. Hating it, working against it, is...

9. My weltanschauung consists of peace and justice and accountability. This is not how the world is and I will work to change that. THAT is what I will Change. One would suppose support in such endeavors but you never know.

10. I've voted Democratic all my life and now Democratic mayors are the ones who've unleashed some of the worst violence upon Occupy. Occupy occurred because politicians refused to solve certain enormous problems. Then they directly attacked us and continue to do so. Vote all of them the hell out of power. They definitely should not be allowed it. If there's no one running against them, pressure the hell out of them until they DO change their policy against the Bill of Rights and our fellow citizens.

10.5. That anyone could see all this and side with cops against the Bill of Rights and Wall Street is beyond me. That anyone could dislike Occupy is beyond me.

11. There is something terribly wrong in this country. -V

BTW, five of the above videos aren't even Occupy-related.

This just in from Twitter:

anonymous ‏@Anonymously37

Silly humans thinking the cops have time to investigate murders when protestors are holding beat me signs.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #17)

Mon May 28, 2012, 09:43 PM

19. There may also be something wrong with obsessively posting the same thing over and over again.

 

Posts that don't add any information to the discussion, only reiterate the poster's opinion ad-infinitum.

We all need to burn off some steam once in a while but sometimes taking a step back -a vacation from the keyboard, maybe?- is a good idea. You don't seem to be 'converting' many people to your point of view, if that's the purpose. And the process is probably making you even more frustrated.

IMHO.

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Response to randome (Reply #19)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:14 PM

29. Perhaps the fact that the 'thing' has not been addressed has something to do with that.

 

As I understand it, posting one's position, especially when accompanied by evidence of gross injustice, is one of the prime missions of this board.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #29)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:20 PM

33. But that's the point. No one is saying there is no injustice.

 

We are all in agreement on that. But putting words in people's mouths -even sarcastic ones like 'The police are always right'- serves no useful purpose that I can see.

Sure, you and yours can keep posting the same things over and over again but, again, what's the point? No one is arguing your central point that there is injustice.

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Response to randome (Reply #33)

Tue May 29, 2012, 06:45 AM

58. There's the problem, you missed the point and assigned you own.

 

The central point is not that there is injustice, it is that much of the injustice that is, is perpetrated by those empowered to protect society from it.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #58)

Tue May 29, 2012, 07:30 AM

61. We are in agreement on that.

 

But the snark in the subject line does not support that. And the knee-jerk response that some have to paint others as somehow supporting the brutality is what is ludicrous.

I'm sure the statistics would prove me out: for every police atrocity, there are a thousand good actions.

If anyone wants to convince me that's not true, then they need to do some serious statistical analysis to prove their position.

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Response to randome (Reply #19)

Tue May 29, 2012, 12:48 AM

44. Why? Is there a limit on how much we should talk about important issues that affect the American

People, especially Minority Communities when it comes to the police? Have any of those cops who nearly killed protesters like Scott Olsen and Kayvan Sabeghi, two Iraq Veterans exercising the rights they were told they risked their lives for, been even identified yet, let alone arrested? Let us know when that happens it's been seven months and we are still waiting.

What is the time limit for talking about cops who are out of control, who are nearly killing civilians for peacefully protesting? Should we wait until they actually do kill someone? They've come close so many times these past few months, as you must know surely?

How about the Iraq War? When Bush was lying about that, was there a limit on how often we should have talked about it?

How about torture? Is it 'just letting off steam' to talk about these, to Democrats at least, I KNOW they are not important to Republicans who like to shut us about them, but is it just 'letting off steam' now, to address these issues?

Since when did this new rule regarding police brutality and/or other important issues become something Democrats are advocating? I say we do not talk about them enough, in fact since Bush left office it's as if all these issues suddenly went away.

This is absolutely unbelievable to see here on a Democratic board. To say we should limit speaking about criminal activity on the part of our public servants. How about the victims? Think they might agree with you?

Thank you to Fire and every other Democrat who is attempting to hold them accountable and to our elected officials, certainly not Republicans, but the Dems in NYC who are taking action against the police.

I'd love an explanation for your comment. It makes no sense to me.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #44)

Tue May 29, 2012, 04:54 AM

55. So the 'important issue' is 'cops are always right'.

 

Which, of course, is a strawman argument meant to highlight the opposite position, which is that cops are always evil.

Both of those positions are ridiculous. If you want to talk about police abuse, then that's what should be talked about. But you should know that not everyone will take your word for something. Most of us want confirmation of some sort in a discussion thread.

No one on DU is saying that the police are always right except thread titles like this one.

No one is saying that police brutality does not exist. Some posters make these ridiculous claims and then start arguing that others don't want to do anything about police brutality. It's a ridiculous sideshow that adds nothing to the discussion.

Iraq War? Torture? Okay, let's talk about those. But let's do it without ridiculous positions such as 'Police are always right'.

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Response to randome (Reply #55)

Tue May 29, 2012, 03:27 PM

70. No, this subject is about the behavior of the cops, nationwide, towards

peaceful protesters for eight months now. They have arrested over 7,000 people (but not one corrupt banker) and have injured, some very seriously, untold numbers of Americans simply for exercising their rights, including old people, disable people, elected officials, war veterans, journalists.

Why did you think this was about something it is not about? This is specifically about the treatment of the cops of American citizens exercising their constitutional right to protest and of the press to cover the news.

If you can defend this, now 8 month old problem of which there is no doubt, so well documented as it is, then feel free to do so.

But attempting to turn the topic into something it is not, is doing exactly what you are accusing the OP of.

The question is, should the US Civilian police be armed with military weapons, tanks etc and should people be beaten into unconsciousness simply because they are protesting?

Maybe the diversions in this thread are to try not to answer that question, but it does need to be answered so I am asking it again. What is your opinion on this specific topic, the coverage of the OWS movement and the behavior of the police towards US citizens?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #70)

Tue May 29, 2012, 05:49 PM

72. Um, you brought up the subjects of torture and Iraq.

 

And the OP is implying that somebody, somewhere thinks the police are always in the right. I don't think you'll find anyone on DU who thinks that.

My opinion on the coverage? The coverage is muddled. Sometimes the police behave abominably. Sometimes people within OWS do stupid things like the guys who were arrested in Chicago most recently.

I don't know what your point is. Yeah, the police behave abominably sometimes. I don't know what else anyone could say. WE ARE IN AGREEMENT.

But when you talk about rights, I think it was absurd to the Nth degree to think that taking over other cities' public parks was some kind of protest. In that respect, OWS set itself up for a confrontation that never needed to occur.

That does not excuse the police from behaving abominably. I think what you really want is for DUers to jump up and down and act like Fascism is right around the corner. Well, sorry but...most of us don't think that.

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Response to randome (Reply #72)

Tue May 29, 2012, 07:36 PM

79. Taking over 'other cities public parks'? Who did that?

Last edited Tue May 29, 2012, 11:17 PM - Edit history (1)

Do you know what the laws said about Zuccotti Park for instance? Did you know why OWS chose that particular park to occupy? Are you aware that in many cities the laws did permit the occupiers to do what they were doing and that in some cases worked with the police to make sure laws were being abided by?

That argument is from the far right, a Hannity argument, refuted many times, but who expects that to stop Hannity from repeating it? I don't think you want to be doing that here where we look for facts.

The problem is you have made so many statements, like this one, that are inaccurate, that either this is a story you are not familiar with, or you simply don't like the idea of this Social Justice movement, which is fine. Most Social Justice movements were not welcomed when they occurred, this one was far more popular than most.

But then you continue to make the old 'false equivalency' argument when it becomes impossible to deny the behavior of the cops: 'they both do it' when the evidence overwhelmingly proves this to be false. Another media trick, in case you were not aware.

But let's settle that 'moral equivalency' argument here. Please provide a list of injured citizens or cops that is equal to the number of nearly killed, badly injured, falsely arrested peaceful occupiers, as a result of police brutality, that were caused by Occupiers. After I see this list, then I will give some credibility to your 'moral equivalency' arguments. But that won't happen. Because it simply isn't true.

The brutality of the cops across the country has been carefully documented since this movement began. Occupy organizers carefully planned for the lies they knew would be told, or the false equivalency arguments that would be made to cover the cops. It has also been documented by Organizations that track Human Rights abuses, the UN eg, Reporters Without Borders, Civil Liberties organizations to name a few. There simply is no point in using that 'false equivalency' argument.

And now, yet another OWS case has been thrown out of court, because once again, the cops LIED, under oath. And because as I just pointed out, Occupiers were prepared for cops to lie AND make false arrests by recording every thing they could. By having legal observers and video-graphers documenting every arrest.

And there will be more. Because most of those arrests were FALSE arrests. Three in a row thrown out of court, the first three to make it to court so far.

As for the 'terror' case, what do YOU know about that? Did you read what a former FBI agent who used to do this kind of work, he called it 'entrapment', had to say about that case? Not to mention, like the above cases I mentioned where I am sure you would have implied those protersters were guilty just because they were arrested, that questionable case has not even gone to court yet, yet you appear to have made a decision about it.

Of course even if the whole plot was an FBI plot, as their attorneys allege, as the former FBI agent said, 'it won't matter if they are innocent, the idea is to 'taint the movement, I know, I did it, and there will be more'!

So, now we have a string of cases being thrown out of court one after the other, because of false arrests and cops lying under oath. WHAT should we do about this?

Is that the kind of system of justice you want for this country? And no, it is NOT a 'few bad apples' it is WIDESPREAD. And because of the brilliance of the organizers of this movement and a few good whistle-blower cops, all of the corruption is being EXPOSED. That is what you are seeing.

I will await your list of OWS brutality towards other citizens and/or cops that compares to the tens of thousands of documented incidents of brutality against citizens by the cops.

I know I am safe to ask this question. Because the ratio is probably Cops = 99% Protesters 1% so far.

So to even attempt to equate the two is utterly futile and a waste of everyone's time. Leave that 'false equivalency' garbage to the Corporate Media, and even they have to be careful in the face of all the evidence to the contrary. This movement is Global, there are millions of people involved in it. So even if a few incidents are true, then this is one of the most peaceful movements of its size ever.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:47 PM

12. People here speak of all this like it was anything new.

In fact, police departments used to be FAR worse.

Remember Chicago's "Hizzoner" Daley's 60's Stormtroopers?

Harold Breier's Milwaukee goon squads?

The biggest difference is also what the bad cops hate the most.
They are on video.

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Response to Archae (Reply #12)

Mon May 28, 2012, 09:38 PM

18. Cops are exactly the same, just ask the kid in LA who recently ate 90 bullets

 

Last edited Mon May 28, 2012, 10:08 PM - Edit history (1)

after a high-speed chase. Ask Kelly Thomas.

Yes, they are on video. Dispatchers in Chicago during the NATO protests were reminding cops over their radios to remember they were on live television...and look what we still got.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/national-lawyers-guild-chicago/national-lawyers-guild-provides-wrap-up-of-police-actions-during-week-long-nato-/10150991004840148

Cop culture must be changed or ended.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #18)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:16 PM

31. LA's well-earned reputation goes back to the day the second white guy got there. n/t

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:52 PM

13. Strawmen are always right. Do what they say. Trouble is never their fault.

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Response to boppers (Reply #13)

Mon May 28, 2012, 09:48 PM

20. Says the man who pushes the lie that marijuana causes overdose deaths.

Talk about

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #20)

Mon May 28, 2012, 09:52 PM

21. I believe your counter-argument is called a non-sequitur.

 

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Response to randome (Reply #21)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:02 PM

24. It's a multi-thread argument tactic.

It gets hard to follow, sorry about that.

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Response to boppers (Reply #24)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:06 PM

27. Sure isn't your fault!

 

Can't take the heat? Change the subject!

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Response to randome (Reply #27)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:15 PM

30. It works best with people who see DU as a group of identities.

Discredit an identity, and they "lose value".

However, while such a tactic works well in an office pool, or small social community, it works poorly on the internet.

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #20)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:01 PM

23. Hee hee. Find me that post. I dare you.

Post it for all to see, and let them judge who is making rational, well reasoned, arguments.

I just put a new one up today, if that helps.

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Response to boppers (Reply #13)

Tue May 29, 2012, 12:55 AM

45. Hey, we meet again.

Could you explain this 'strawman' please? It's the people's fault, right? Cops never, ever do anything wrong. Tell it to NYC's minorities, to the African American and Muslim communities. Watch for the investigations that they are trying so hard not to have, because it is so wide-spread.

Are all those AA kids they are harassing, nearly half a million over the past few years, do you think they are all 'strawmen'? How about NYC's entire Muslim community? Are you following that story, or do you think the cops have a right to harass Muslim American citizens? Strawmen? Really?

This movement sure has exposed a lot. So has this new system.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #45)

Tue May 29, 2012, 01:32 AM

50. We "dance" in the same timezone. Hi!

"Could you explain this 'strawman' please?"

The straw man is "Cops are evil".

A black trooper in Luxembourg, who marches *with* the 99%, is painted with the same broad brush as a white cop in L.A. who whacks some guy with a stick.

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Response to boppers (Reply #50)

Tue May 29, 2012, 02:45 AM

52. Lol, by whom? If a cop is a good cop, and there were some in Chicago this past weekend thankfully,

we will say so. Eg, a few of the good cops stopped another cop from shooting a news live-streamer who was holding a cell phone in his hand. Thankfully, the trigger happy cop was stopped from killing an innocent person who was there to cover the protests. Kudos to the good guys. But those journalists should never have been pulled over to begin with. And the cops know it, as they are refusing to answer all questions about the incident, which very nearly turned into a very tragic event.

To help the good cops, the people have to speak out against the bad cops. The good cops cannot do it alone, they will lose their jobs or worse. Are you in favor of remaining silent when cops are corrupt? How does that help the good guys?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #52)

Tue May 29, 2012, 05:57 AM

56. How many teachers are you willing to fire because they "had a bad day"?

How many miners are you willing to fire because they "had a bad day"?
How many welders are you willing to fire because they "had a bad day"?
How many cops are you willing to fire because they "had a bad day"?

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Response to boppers (Reply #56)

Tue May 29, 2012, 03:05 PM

69. If a teacher nearly kills another human being and then prevents people from trying to go

help the injured party by attacking them, that is someone who is a threat to society and needs to be removed from any position that places the public in danger from them.

Do you call nearly killing American Citizens 'having a bad day' now?

People who cannot control violent tendencies should never be in a job where their behavior is a threat to the public, doctor, teacher whatever.

I'm sure you're not advocating keeping someone with a record of violence armed and on the streets where they have already demonstrated a severe lack of respect for human life.

Eg, we are still waiting for the identity of the cop who nearly killed Scott Olsen. But reporters have been diligently working on that story and believe they have identified. If they are correct, I can see why the Oakland PD wants this story to go away. And that Dept is under investigation for its history of violence and corruption outside of these protests.

Same with the NYPD.

So I'm assuming you're not comparing a teacher having a bad day with a cop who has killed several people and/or nearly killed a War Veteran who was standing, unarmed exercising a right he was told he was putting HIS live on the line for.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #69)

Tue May 29, 2012, 05:33 PM

71. "Nearly killed Scott Olsen"?

Ah, that's what you paragraphs were leading up to, and were referring to.

The guy got hit in the head, minor skull fracture, no long term physical damage. I realize he's a bit of a media darling, but lets not pretend his injuries were life threatening, or that he is some kind of martyr.

A crowd was given a legitimate order to disperse and leave the street.

He did not.

He got knocked in the head somehow, and crumpled, video suggests a dispersal device hit him.

A group rushed to check on him, and got a gasbang dispersal device lobbed into them.

He eventually got picked up, went to the hospital, and recovered fine, he had a concussion and skull fracture, no permanent physical injury, nothing life threatening about it, it's a guy who got hit in the head and fell down.

Hang all the florid and laudatory words on it that you want, I'm glad a volunteer killer-for-money changed his ways, sad that he got a knock to the head, glad that he's totally fine now.

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Response to boppers (Reply #71)

Tue May 29, 2012, 06:54 PM

77. Yes. Nearly killed him.


Veteran Scott Olsen Could Be The First Person To Die At A Wall Street Protest

Linette Lopez and Robert Johnson|October 26, 2011

Scott Olsen survived two tours of Iraq, but his life could be over after being critically injured by a police projectile at Occupy Oakland, The Guardian reports. He's 24 years old.

As we know, Occupy Oakland got incredibly ugly this week as police tried to remove protesters from their camp in front of City Hall by using tear gas, fire crackers, and rubber bullets.

Olsen suffered a head injury on Tuesday night, and is now in critical condition in Oakland's Highland Hospital. Jay Finneburgh, a photographer on the scene, managed to witness and take pictures of the incident. Police policy specifically prohibits the firing of these weapons at a person's head.

...


At first, Doctors told Olsen's friends that he was in critical, but stable condition. Now they're being told that his skull has been fractured and his brain is beginning to swell. Neurologists are in the process of determining whether or not he will require surgery.


http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-10-26/wall_street/30323723_1_oakland-police-critical-condition-rubber-bullets





Scott Olsen, Iraq Vet Hurt by OPD Projectile: "I'm Not Alright."

—By Gavin Aronsen
| Tue May. 1, 2012 11:13 AM PDT

...

It was two and a half weeks before Olsen could speak at all, and about a month "before I was comfortable speaking," he told me. "It took a while." Olsen, who is in his mid-twenties, is now out of formal therapy and has been focusing on activities involving Iraq Veterans Against The War. In the meantime, he has filed a claim against the City of Oakland, which is "already playing games," he says. "The police department is blatantly at fault." He is optimistic, he adds, because "I have the support of the people."

So, is he okay? "I'm not alright," he replies. "I'm good enough to do stuff like this."

He explains that still has PTSD from Iraq, and still has a brain injury from the OPD incident. ....


http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/05/scott-olsen-occupy-oakland-may-day




Scott Olsen, U.S. Vet Who Nearly Lost Life at Occupy Protest, Brings Antiwar Message to NATO Summit
Monday, May 28, 2012

...


AMY GOODMAN: And so, you ended up in the hospital. And how long were you in the hospital? And how long were you able—so you had a fractured skull.

SCOTT OLSEN: Right. So I went to the hospital. I was in the hospital for two-and-a-half weeks. I could not talk while I was in the hospital until the last few days, when I regained that—starting to be able to talk again. And I had neurosurgery and skull reconstruction surgery. So it was very, you know, hard to be in the hospital, and it was a lot to go through. But I’m really—I’m really glad that I really committed myself to getting better.

...


AMY GOODMAN: So you were wearing a black, shiny helmet.

SCOTT OLSEN: Right, I was wearing a helmet for my safety. And I have to do that every time I go out to a protest where there’s a threat of violence from the police.

AMY GOODMAN: Because?

SCOTT OLSEN: Well, because they have been using violence across the country, and they still do, and people are still getting hurt. And—

AMY GOODMAN: And if you get hit again in the head?

SCOTT OLSEN: Right. Like, since I had a recent brain injury, another hit would probably be deadly or cause much more damage, so I really can’t take that risk.

...


http://www.democracynow.org/2012/5/28/scott_olsen_us_vet_who_nearly#transcript



Calling Olsen just "a guy who got hit in the head and fell down" is far from the truth.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #77)

Tue May 29, 2012, 07:51 PM

80. Gabby Giffords vs. Scott Olsen.

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Response to boppers (Reply #80)

Wed May 30, 2012, 04:37 AM

84. Gabby Giffords wasn't shot by a cop at a peaceful protest

Others have died of brain injuries. So...Scott Olsen's critical brain injury doesn't count because he's doing better, relatively? Do you even believe the words you typed?

You attack Olsen as merely "a media darling" and minimize his injuries. When presented with the actual facts about the severity of his injuries...life-threatening, unable to speak for 2 1/2 weeks, neurosurgery, skull reconstruction, having to wear a helmet when at risk of more police violence...your response is to suggest that, well it could have been worse? Really??? And you use Gabby Giffords for that???

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #84)

Thu May 31, 2012, 06:24 AM

91. Yes.

The dude was awake, and responsive, within days.

Days.

Not weeks.

Not years.

Days.

Gabby, who I went to high school with, is still trying to talk.

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Response to boppers (Reply #71)

Tue May 29, 2012, 08:38 PM

82. No, that was one example. And no, he did NOT 'get hit on the head' he was deliberately targeted.

And so were the rescuers, by the same cop. A cop now identified as being from the Oakland PD, who has on his record, the killing of three other civilians.

I have many examples like this of people being nearly killed, none assisted by the cops, but thanks to other protesters were rescued and taken for treatment. Way, way too many to list here.

There is video evidence along with eye-witness testimony (cops, but we haven't heard from them yet, however, the SF Dept denied it was one of their cops, who were not equipped with the kind of missive used to nearly kill Olsen) to prove that it was a deliberate act, followed, as the video showed by a second deliberate attack on the rescuers, by the same cop. It was a crime, watched by tens of thousands of people as it occurred.

Then there the case of Kayvan Sabeghi, another Iraq War Vet, also deliberately targeted and nearly killed, beaten to the point where they ruptured his spleen, then refused treatment for him for 18 hours leaving him basically to suffer and perhaps bleed to death. These were deliberate acts, they are called 'crimes' in civilized societies. In the second case, they thought they got away with it as no video surfaced for two weeks, but when it did, taken by a British journalist who happened to be there, it was proven that the victim had accurately described what happened to him.

I wouldn't be trying to defend these crimes. Because even the cops have not tried to do that as it would be foolish in the face of all the evidence. They are however, withholding the 'results of our on-going investigations'.

Do you think Iraq War Veterans exercising peacefully the rights they are told they put their lives on the line for, who went to war and survived, should end up being nearly killed by civilian police in the streets of their own country? Surely you are not trying to defend this behavior. In the Scott Olsen case btw, it was clear he was a Veteran, so we have a cop deliberately targeting a US Veteran while standing peacefully on the street. Defend that, I truly want to hear it.

The name of the cop is now known. His Department is very fortunate that Olsen survived, no thanks to the police. The SF police there that night, are relieved it was not one of their guys. This is a cop with a very disturbing record of violence against the public. He is clearly a dangerous threat to society. As are the mob of cops who nearly killed Kayvan Sagehgi. We have some very serious crimes to deal with since this movement began. I don't know why it is taking so long.

Where are you getting your information btw?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #82)

Wed May 30, 2012, 01:10 AM

83. Again:

"Hang all the florid and laudatory words on it that you want, I'm glad a volunteer killer-for-money changed his ways, sad that he got a knock to the head, glad that he's totally fine now."

Wearing a uniform, any uniform, does not grant you the right to ignore civil law. We are not a military dictatorship. Dress it up however you want, claim one uniform has more rights than others, whatever, but the legal system is, thankfully, not as facile.

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Response to boppers (Reply #83)

Wed May 30, 2012, 05:00 PM

85. What civil law was either Kayvan Sabeghi or Scott Olsen violating?

Is walking home from what was a peaceful, all day 1st Amendment protected protest, now a violation of civil law?

I'm curious, never heard ANYONE claim either of these veterans were violating civil laws, even the far right morons who support bashing the skulls of protesters. Their only criticism of these two war veterans was that they are 'traitors' mainly because that's all they had, no laws that I know of are violated by peacefully protesting in this country.

So, please, enlighten us, this is the first time I have heard that claim.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #85)

Thu May 31, 2012, 06:38 AM

92. I don't know anything, really, about Sabeghi.

Olsen refused a lawful order to leave a public right of way.

He was in the street, does anybody dispute that?

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Response to boppers (Reply #92)

Thu May 31, 2012, 08:22 AM

93. Are you serious? You deserve to be nearly killed by the police for standing in the street?

Where is your link to the claim you just made about Scott Olsen? Why was he not arrested do you think? Charged even?

And you don't know what happened to Sabeghi? I'm sure if you did, you would blame him too. How about the 82 year old woman? Or the disabled woman in a wheelchair? Just to mention a few more. The list is very long.

I believe I told you this already, but the brutality of the police during these protests has caused International Human Rights Orgs to intervene by demanding that the US Govt protect its citizens from the police.

And, FYI, 22 cases of arrests at OWS protests have now dismissed because the police LIED, under oath, with more expected to be dismissed. So any claim by the police from now on that 'laws were violated' will simply be dismissed in court or out of court. No one believes them anymore.

Huge lawsuits are also being filed, with more coming up, possibly now with all these dismissals and documented proof of cops lying under oath and making false arrests etc, a Civil Rico Suit is likely against the police. Elected officials in NYC joined Journalists who falsely arrested and injured this past week to file a suit against the police.

But, back to your comment. Please post a link to back up your claim that Scott Olsen violated a law. In fact after that brutal assault, and it was by far not the only one in Oakland that night, the outrage was so intense the mayor had to keep the police away from the protest that brought over one hundred thousand people into the streets a few days later. AND caused military veterans organizations to join OWS to protect the protesters from the police.

That huge crowd demonstrated all day, joined the Longshoremen and shut down the ports, with almost zero police presence and there was not a single violent incident.

Isn't it strange that the violence only starts when the police show up?

They are not called 'riot police' for nothing.

Btw, where do you get your information? What sources are you using? Because you are so misinformed, worse, the information you post regarding this movement is so distorted, that I am curious why you never post links to back it up.

Scott Olsen violated no laws that night, he was not charged or arrested for violating laws, but for you to say that someone in this country should be nearly killed by the police for standing on the street, wow, that is scary.



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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #93)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 05:46 AM

105. Walk into traffic, and complain?

Interesting tactic.

Do you dispute that Olsen walked into a street, and stood there?

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Response to boppers (Reply #105)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 02:51 PM

110. Asking again, because you did not answer this question yet.

What sources do you use regarding OWS?

Where are you finding these non-facts? Could you post links to your sources at least so we can help direct you towards credible sources?



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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #110)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 05:44 PM

113. I don't quite grasp your question, I think.

I don't like stovepiped information sources, so I tend to shy away from single sources, or even collections of similar sources.... so I aggregate and synthesize on my own, noting bias as I go along. Everything from first person blogs to syndicated journalism gets put into the hopper, so to speak.

WRT Scott standing in the street, I believe that's on most of the videos of the incident, and is not disputed.

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Response to boppers (Reply #113)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 06:37 PM

114. I asked because you have posted so much inaccurate information that certainly did not come

from reliable sources. 'Scott' was engaged in a 1st Amendment protected activity eg, which even the biased MSM, nor the police I might add, does not dispute. Yet, you have characterized his perfectly legal and peaceful engagement in a Constitutionally protected activity as illegal, while ignoring the actual illegal and brutal assault on him as 'deserved'.

Now, I read all kinds of sources, left, right, independent, MSM, Foreign media, which btw covers the OWS movement extensively, progressive publications such as the Nation and more than I can list here. But the only 'sources' that have characterized Scott Olsen's engagement in something he has a perfect to do, as 'illegal' were right wing sources. That is why I asked. And wondered why, with all the available credible sources there are, why you chose the minsicule, mostly debunked 'reporting' of the right to back up what you appear to believe, wrongfully.

Not to mention the only link you did provide, led to a TV station actually caught in the act, on the air, pushing the right wing view of OWS much to the embarrassment of the station, even as they were engaged in an obvious attempt to smear protesters and which of course failed miserably. That incident was one of the most amusing, failed attempts by the RW noise machine, fyi.

I think you should find new sources frankly, because constantly posting wrong information from obviously questionable sources, loses YOU credibility. I don't need to argue against right wing 'reporting' on OWS. Many others have done that so effectively that I rarely waste the time. Thankfully they have been debunked, exposed and made fools of as their 'reporting' was anticipated and prepared for by far more intelligent and experienced people than I.

But it's been interesting seeing this line of argument, we need to be prepared for it, as it will continue and I'm always willing to debunk right wing myths with facts.

As for facts, Scott Olsen's case, along with hundreds of others, thanks to the training of the protesters on how to document every arrest, every illegal act by the police, are making their way through the courts and it looks like so far, the cops are losing by 100% where it counts, in the courtrooms of America. So you might not want to be defending police brutality against American citizens, nor can I imagine why anyone would.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #114)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 07:53 PM

117. You and I apparently have different ideas of what "dispute" means, it seems.

When the meaning of basic dictionary words are twisted or misused during conversation, discourse becomes difficult.

Your meaning of "100%" is also amusing to me.

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Response to boppers (Reply #83)

Thu May 31, 2012, 07:58 PM

101. In your own words:

Wearing a uniform, any uniform, does not grant you the right to ignore civil law. We are not a military dictatorship. We are not a military dictatorship. Dress it up however you want, claim one uniform has more rights than others, whatever, but the legal system is, thankfully, not as facile.


And yet, throughout this thread you have defended the criminal actions of a man in uniform who took matters into his own hands and committed a brutal crime against an innocent person. He ignored civil law, apparently not for the first time. So yes, 'dress it up however you want to' but a crime is a crime.

And thankfully the legal system is NOT facile, as we are seeing now on a regular basis as cops who commit perjury and make false arrests ARE finally being held accountable.

I have full faith in our judicial system and I expect that once the Oakland PD finally finishes its 'investigation' this case will be judged in our courts where it belonged a long time ago.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #101)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 05:51 AM

106. "the criminal actions of a man in uniform" like Olsen, or those who injured him.

Being a cop, or soldier, doesn't mean you get to ignore law.

Some folks would like to throw out the law.

I am not among them.

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Response to boppers (Reply #106)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 01:49 PM

109. You agree that the cop should have been

removed from the streets and prosecuted for his criminal assault on Scott Olsen, and that those other cops, who beat Kayvan Sabeghi, should also have been both identified by now and charged with assault? Just to name two as there are so many others.

I agree, wearing a uniform does not exempt anyone from being charged when they commit a crime, especially violent crimes like this. In fact, more should be expected of those in uniform whose motto is to 'protect and serve'. The consequences should probably be even more dire for them given the betrayal of trust added to the crime itself.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #109)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 05:39 PM

112. If a potentially successful case can be built, yes.

Convincing a jury of intent can be hard with LEO cases, but it's been done before.

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Response to boppers (Reply #112)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 06:51 PM

115. I don't think this will be a difficult case. Olsen has already filed

on his own behalf and hopefully there will be a criminal case. The OPD have refused to speak to the press about the progress of their 'internal investigation' how long does it take really, seven months?) and I can understand their attempts to delay the obvious outcome of any court procedures on this case. At least THEY know the deep doo doo their violent cop has gotten them into. But eventually, this incident, which was watched as it happened around the world, so it won't go away, they will have to submit to the rule of law, like it or not.

Cops have been losing badly in OWS cases in court, because, as I said before, protesters were trained and prepared on the documentation of every incident, arrests, police brutality etc. Legal observers, videographers, eyewitness, taking down badge numbers, on the scene to record events, it was impressive how prepared they were, not to mention having lawyers at the scene in many instances.

The reason why cases have failed in the past against the police, is because people did not document the incidents, and police were free to lie with nothing to refute them. But the preparation of OWS has paid off, and when a judge sees proof of a cop lying, there isn't much he can do.

So I have every confidence that the 22 dismissed cases so far, will be repeated over and over, because citizens took the trouble to protect themselves against false arrests and against cops who were prepared to lie under oath. This movement is high-lighting problems that already existed within the police departments and hopefully, now that so many cases are being won, there will be a thorough investigation (already happening in NYC and Oakland) of police practices.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #115)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 07:58 PM

118. A man who is his own lawyer has a fool for a client.

Everybody has begun taping, and reviewing tapes.

That doesn't stop people from trying to lie, of course.

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Response to boppers (Reply #118)

Sat Jun 2, 2012, 12:03 AM

119. Once again, I really wish you would take my suggestion, IF you are going to expound

on a topic, that you use credible sources.

There are at least two Lawyers groups who from the beginning, have been working with OWS. The organizers received LEGAL advice from LAWYERS. Present at every demonstration were dozens of LEGAL observers.

How do you think they knew how to prepare for the expected arrests? Who do you think they got the excellent advice, now paying off since they TOOK the advice, that they put into practice so effectively?

I guess they knew that it would be foolish to be their 'own lawyers'.

But you're a Democrat, right? So you must be happy to learn that there are many Lawyers in this country who believe so firmly in the Constitutional rights of US Citizens, that they gave their time and are still doing so, to represent Citizens whose rights are denied by they police.

The National Lawyers Guild have been among the many heroes of this movement. Dedicated, since 1937, to protecting the rights of the people. OWS has been very fortunate to have their services. Not only do they provide lawyers, they provide legal observers, paralegals and legal advisers to ensure that those whose rights are being abused, have proper representation. So far their record in court confirms their expertise in these kinds of cases.

As for Scott Olsen, if you were inferring that he is representing himself, I can't imagine why you thought that. He is very well represented by competent attorneys. As are all the other protesters whose rights were abused during these protests.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 06:34 PM

14. Don't forget dispatchers too

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 06:42 PM

15. Most disturbing (nt)

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:00 PM

22. Fire, we have seen the police in their full "glory" and we know the truth.

Many others who put their asses on the line by taking to the streets also know the truth.

It is easy to be cynical behind a keyboard (as too many DUers are). I'm learning that it takes people to get their asses beaten personally (or see it in person) to believe this shit is going on (YouTube doesn't count).

I respect your effort, but I think it is casting pearls before swine. Those who have an interest in not believing will continue NOT to believe until THEY are affected. I call it "middle-class survival instinct."

That being said, I commend you for your continued fight for the truth.

Peace & Solidarity my brother. I hope to see you soon.

U4ikLefty

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #22)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:09 PM

28. I cannot be quiet. I will not be quiet. Not about injustice.

 

That's just how I seem to be built.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #28)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:23 PM

34. Who are you? Batman?

 

No one is disagreeing with you that there is injustice. So you may as well stop headlining your posts with such ridiculous, sarcastic lines like, 'The police are always right'.

The only person saying that is you.

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Response to randome (Reply #34)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:57 PM

39. You should have seen the look

on my wife's face when I snorted at that Batman crack.


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Response to pintobean (Reply #39)

Mon May 28, 2012, 11:04 PM

40. Judging from the lack of direct responses to anything I post to FWWM, I'm sure I'm on Ignore.

 

But that makes it even funner!

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Response to randome (Reply #40)

Tue May 29, 2012, 01:48 PM

67. From a statistical analysis of this thread,

I make you out to be batman, and bop is robin (the post #13, 50, 56 bop incarnation is, anyhow.)

You have 22 out of 66 posts between you on this o.p., 33% of total posts on the issue, to disagree. Keep kicking it up, while fighting 'the good fight' against Fire's 'incorrect' thoughts.

Your p #55 'straw man' indictment is ironic, since you put words in the o.p. ers mouth, and set up a straw man that fire said 'cops are always evil', instead of 'cops are sometimes wrong, here's some evidence.'

Post #48's S-1 gives some excellent advice.

How about making your own o.p., instead of saying 'we all know about police brutality, it's not important like torture and war. Stop talking about it.' If you feel that cops are mostly right against protestors, make an o.p., instead of getting in peoples' way when they want to teach or learn about the cases. You could start with a 'cops are mostly wrong' title, and prove your post 19 opinion that you have the majority view here. You could prove your # 54's 5th para assertion that this o.p. doesn't reflect or convince anyone on DU. You could give us your post # 61's '1000 to 1' stat analysis proof. (Which may unfortunately still not apply to the issue of violent repression of pro-democracy peaceful protestors.)

Try building your own thought-train rail-road, instead of trying to de-rail this one. Let the magical market-place of DU ideas prove what's right. I'll be happy to add one post to your o.p.

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Response to randome (Reply #34)

Tue May 29, 2012, 01:14 AM

48. Did it occur to you to just skip threads you do not like?

I can't tell you the number of threads I see that I think are 'ridiculous', but I know that other DUers find them interesting, so I simply pass them by. It's easy now on DU3, all you have to do is put someone on ignore, or use thrash thread, or simply ignore them. You seem to be very upset by what so many other DUers find important. So the best solution seems to be not to get yourself all upset, and just ignore what you don't like. No one is forced to see anything they do not want to see.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #48)

Tue May 29, 2012, 04:45 AM

54. I'm hardly 'upset'.

 

And maybe you or someone else gets tired of hearing me say this but: I will never put anyone on Ignore. I have never and I doubt I will ever alert on someone. I want to hear and see everything, even opinions I disagree with.

The alternative is to be part of a society of 'ditto-heads'. Not for me.

But since DU is a discussion forum, I join discussions I find particularly intractable, such as these, because that is where I learn more about myself and others.

Surely you have to admit, however, that this thread title is deliberately trying to paint people into a corner. No one that I have encountered on DU has said that the police are always right.

So if the point of threads like these is to convince people of something, that doesn't seem to be working when outrageous positions are posted that do not reflect anyone on DU.

And if you or anyone else wants to change the world for the better, you might start by telling us what you think will improve the situation with the police. Any ideas?

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Response to randome (Reply #54)

Tue May 29, 2012, 02:56 PM

68. I have no one on ignore either, but there are a lot of people whose posts I don't read

most of the time.

I do not admit that this thread is trying to paint people into a corner. It is the OP's opinion as many OPs are. If it is not accurate, the best way not to be in a corner is to discuss it and introduce your own pov, with back-up. Sometimes people are genuinely angry over things they see, and rightfully so, and yes, sometimes that results in painting with a broad brush. Most of us do it at times.

But I know what the OP is talking about and didn't take it to mean that all cops are bad.

You ask how do we make the world better, well, certainly not be ignoring things like the militarization of our PDs which is a fact, a fact I can back up with credible sources and so can anyone who takes to the streets to protest.

When the good cops are overwhelmed by the bad cops, (see Oakland, the NYPD eg) and policies instituted by elected officials, they cannot do much alone. It becomes the duty of citizens to speak out and to give THEM support by letting them know the people are outraged too.

When I called the Portland PD eg, to complain about the treatment of protesters, I expected the cop to be rude and disagree with me. Instead, he told me he had concerns but was not in a position to do much about it. He encouraged me to call his Chief. Protesters themselves has said they have talked to police and found that some of them do not like what is going on, but cannot do anything either. There have been reports from NYC, eg, although not verified, that cops refused to take the overtime offered to suppress OWS.

And I know cops personally who are disturbed by a lot of what they see, but if they speak out, they could lose their jobs, they will definitely be subjected to harassment. So, it helps the good cops when the people speak out which the people have not done for a long time.

For minority communities police harassment and brutality has been going on for a long time. So most of them are not at all surprised to see it. AND as many of them have said, public outrage is the only way to stop it.

I want a civilian police force, we have an army, we don't need two armies. Today's PDs are being supplied with military weapons by Bush's Dept. of Homeland Security. How do we stop this if we do speak out about it?

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #22)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:19 PM

32. Niemoller said it well.


First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came%E2%80%A6

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Response to boppers (Reply #32)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:30 PM

35. Don't worry boppers, the Good Germans will be the last. nt

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #35)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:43 PM

36. That is always the concern.

The middle keeps the fringes from their insanity.

Ultimately, they will suffer, from either side, without keeping them both in check.

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Response to boppers (Reply #36)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:53 PM

38. Clue to boppers. The Good Germans were NOT the middle.

They were the sellouts to the nazi regime.

Sound familiar...if not look in the mirror.

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #38)

Tue May 29, 2012, 12:38 AM

42. I learned my German, as a child, from a "good" one.

Nice woman, she was a child growing up in the Nazi regime, and they "all" wanted what was "best for the people".

If you are convinced that you have good intentions, and doing the "right" thing, chances are, you are making a horrible, awful, mistake.

That's still true today.

Being "always correct" (that's a loose translation) is the root of more evil, than money ever has been.

I look in the mirror every day and doubt myself. I wonder if I am doing wrong. I wonder if my fights are going to be judged by history as the wrong ones.

Do you?

If you don't, well, welcome to the hell of being reich. Reicht. Right.

Same difference.

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Response to boppers (Reply #42)

Tue May 29, 2012, 12:59 AM

46. Good to see what you reflect...maybe sometime (I doubt it) you will come to reality.

If you think the working class & poor in America reflect in the Nazis of Germany of the 30's then you are frankly a piece of shit.

Please feel free to alert me on this boppers. I welcome that if that has become the paradigm on DU.

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #46)

Tue May 29, 2012, 01:40 AM

51. No, the working class and poor are desparate here.

I hope your opinion of me will improve, but, for example, teaching about a Hispanic heritage in Arizona was recently deemed "racist".

Arizonans voted on it. They said history was racist. By voting.

I live in Portland, Oregon, now.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:50 PM

37. The first video that you posted I find very disturbing

Stunning that so many different law enforcement precincts have a similar response to accountability. Shouldn't authority be accountable?

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Response to me b zola (Reply #37)

Mon May 28, 2012, 11:06 PM

41. If you look at the way things actually work in our society..

You'll find that authority and accountability are in inverse proportion to each other, the more authority the less accountability and vice versa.

So the Masters of the Universe can destroy the global economy and get billions in bonuses but some poor black kid with Skittles and Iced Tea gets stalked and killed by a wanna be mall cop who may well get away with the whole thing and absolutely would have if a public outcry hadn't happened.

That's exactly how Bizzaro World we have gotten now.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #41)

Tue May 29, 2012, 06:29 PM

76. ...

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Tue May 29, 2012, 01:08 AM

47. Why is it either/or? Either cops are evil or all good?

That logic is ridiculous, yet I see it all the time here. If I praise a law enforcement officer for helping me out, I can expect to be told I am a mindless sheep kowtowing to authority and have pictures posted of police brutality.

There are asshole cops and good cops. Same thing with the military...we have many brave servicemen and women and some who should never be allowed in a uniform. Just like any group of people, there are good and bad.

Now, of course the shitty thing about law enforcement is that those who are assholes are armed. But that doesn't mean all cops are violent and abusive.

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Response to nadine_mn (Reply #47)

Tue May 29, 2012, 01:23 AM

49. No you won't be told you are a mindless sheep. I have been helped by good cops and have said so, and

no one told me I was a mindless sheep. I know good cops, but to deny that what has happened to our Police Force in the face of all the evidence, some of it provided by former police chiefs themselves, is simply not logical.

The militarization of the police in this country has received world wide attention. Do you want to wait until there are no good cops, or until the good cops cannot do their jobs, because the good ones I know feel they are at that point already. If you want to help the good cops, then stop trying to silence people who are trying to do that, by going after the bad cops, which is what the good cops want us to do. They need the support badly, or are your really not aware of that?

Have you followed the story of the good cop in the NYPD who tried to expose the bad cops and what was done to him, because he did not have the help he needed? Check out the name 'Adrian Schoolcraft' to see what happens when a good cop sees so much corruption, documents it because he cannot watch it without doing something about it, only to find himself kidnapped by his own PD and thrown into a mental ward and held for six days. Don't you think, now that he has been vindicated, he might have liked to have had some support from the public when he tried to do what was right?

By attempting to silence people about the bad cops, it is helping them to keep the good cops from doing their duty, and that story is perfect example of why people must speak out and support the good cops who, understandably are afraid to speak out many times.

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Response to nadine_mn (Reply #47)

Tue May 29, 2012, 05:58 PM

73. I am forced to include as "bad cops", all good cops who say and do nothing

 

when they see bad cops in action. Silence is consent.

I've met a couple of cops who I honestly believe, barring further information, to be good, decent human beings, working for the betterment of the world.

I've also recently had a baton raised at my head, been shoved across a public space by a roid cop who smiled for a long time afterward, heard of and seen my fellows grabbed from behind by cops without warning, seen profiling and cops ordered to break up peaceful protests, and events not even protests...creating and making nuisance arrests along the way, changing their minds, escalating, bringing out "less-lethal" shotguns and real shotguns, to intimidate...per the five non-Occupy videos above, it's clear there is a Problem in general, that it is systemic and extends beyond our country.

Per Occupy and any social movement working for a better world, well...the FBI are working on that now (at least publicly). Kinda makes you wonder who gives the orders in this country.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101731419

My point is to call people to attention and action. We can make all of these problems go away just like we've done to Rush Limbaugh, by shouting in great numbers, NO!

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Tue May 29, 2012, 06:29 AM

57. Thread title misleading!!

I submit the other side of the spectrum as police officers ask for compliance.

Sure there are over zealous and just bad cops we all know that but some may want to thin the broad brush a bit.









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Response to SecurityManager (Reply #57)

Tue May 29, 2012, 07:33 AM

62. Just a second there, SecurityManager.

 

Anybody can post a handful of videos to support just about any position they want.

Oh, wait. That was your point, wasn't it?

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Response to randome (Reply #62)

Tue May 29, 2012, 07:42 AM

63. Funny seems original poster did the same

No?

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Response to SecurityManager (Reply #63)

Tue May 29, 2012, 07:51 AM

64. Exactly. Sorry if my irony did not bleed through.

 

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Response to SecurityManager (Reply #57)

Tue May 29, 2012, 06:06 PM

74. I agree there are good cops and crazy people. However.

 

Occupy has revealed to the average person, what some people of color describe as a daily experience.

They are out of control, are making it up as they go, are arresting people and allowing judges to sort it out...that's not the country in which I wish to live.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002730754

This, and the quote about how much it hurts not to arrest "them":

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002731073

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101730531

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002713201

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Tue May 29, 2012, 09:05 AM

65. What are you trying to accomplish exactly?

Yes there are a lot of shitty cops. It's also a shitty job. A good friend was a cop in Baltimore for 23 years. He's white and stood against some Klan members in the force decades ago. He was given a black partner after that and that worked out fine. He's also an anti war and environmental activist. He's a good guy now, and he was a good guy then, but he says he broke laws as a cop and he has no guilt about that. It depends on which laws, when and why.

There was a saying oft repeated: "It's better to be judged by 12 men then carried by six."
He lived in constant fear every day for those 23 years, and not because of some rsacist cops. Each day he didn't know if he would make it home again alive.. Being a cop is often a hellish job forcing you to confront first hand the absolute worst that humanity is capable of.

None of that justifies blatent police abuse. But I sure as hell wouldn't want to be a cop and I don't think our society is ready yet to get by without any. If I saw a crazed guy on the street stabbing people with a butcher knife I would call the cops. All they can call is each other - they must always move into danger while we get to back away.

There is no upside in demonizing police. Oppose them strongly when they fuck up badly, and that happens often, but the seat of power is far above their heads.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #65)

Tue May 29, 2012, 10:53 AM

66. The OP did exactly what you propose..

.. yet you STILL jumped all over it.

No sale pal, if cops can't conduct themselves in a civil manner toward the PEOPLE THEY SERVE, or call out other cops that act like rioting gang thugs and cleanse them from their ranks, then they are worse than common criminals. They are who the PEOPLE THEY SERVE need protected from. No excuses excepted. If they aren't up to that standard, then they don't deserve the badge.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Tue May 29, 2012, 06:13 PM

75. Thanks pinboy3niner: Article on Occupy exonerations, cops lying under oath:

 

Either these dismissals are the result of a pandemic of sloppy police work and unfortunate errors in the ticketing process, or officers have been knowingly and arbitrarily arresting protesters on trumped-up charges, and in some cases, later lying about it under oath in court.

As news of these arrests and dismissals trickled in over the past eight months, it might have been tempting to label these unjust arrests as isolated incidents. However, when one steps back to examine the big picture, it becomes clear there has been a systematic effort by police forces all across the country to stifle dissent, even if that means lying under oath in court.

The act of being arrested is not inherently an indication of guilt, and yet when an individual has his or her name blasted in the headlines as being an arrestee, the public automatically assumes guilt. Later, a two-sentence retraction hidden at the back of the newspaper is cold comfort to a vindicated citizen.

As Occupiers were being arrested over these past eight months, the public perhaps understandably, although naïvely, believed these protesters were committing crimes. But as these dismissals continue to occur, it’s clear the overwhelming majority of Occupy arrestees are innocent, and guilty only of trying to exercise their First Amendment rights.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/168070/third-case-against-occupy-wall-street-protester-thrown-out

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Tue May 29, 2012, 06:59 PM

78. Most cops "are" right.

 

There are some that are bad cops. But most are good cops. I think that's the philosophy you see on DU.

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Response to Life Long Dem (Reply #78)

Thu May 31, 2012, 04:40 PM

96. Then people need to see Skid Row LA, they need to march with Occupy.

 

I've had a baton raised at my head, been assaulted by a roid cop, and seen eight created arrests in a two-day period.

The 1st Amendment is dead. Get out and test it with your local Occupy, then tell me about the cops being "right". There is empiric evidence to be had, and it is life-changing. Because I certainly do not see any cops saying "NO" to illegal orders against our Constitutional Rights. None, so far as I can tell. Crickets. And our Constitution hangs in the balance. Strike that; without anyone speaking up, it's dead.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #96)

Thu May 31, 2012, 05:21 PM

98. Most likely the cops gave an order and people refused the order.

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #96)

Thu May 31, 2012, 05:32 PM

99. So cops should evaluate the constitutionality of every directive?

 

That would take some time.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Tue May 29, 2012, 08:05 PM

81. "Some here appear to carry this philosophy"

 

Can you identify the "some"?

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #81)

Wed May 30, 2012, 08:36 PM

87. That would be calling out members, which is against the rules. n/t

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #87)

Wed May 30, 2012, 08:44 PM

89. "Some say..." "We hear..." "A reliable source informs us..."

Without names it's just talk. I have never seen anyone say that all cops are good guys. Not once. Not ever. If you can find a single post that says that, I will personally apologize to you. So far, you are the only one I've seen say it.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #87)

Thu May 31, 2012, 01:46 PM

95. PM me links where two or three members have taken this stand. I will then post them and take my....

 

chances with a jury.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #95)

Fri Jun 8, 2012, 06:50 PM

124. K n/t

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed May 30, 2012, 08:16 PM

86. -1E6. Typical broadbrush attack on the police.

Some are good. Some are not. I call bullshit on this.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed May 30, 2012, 08:37 PM

88. Updated OP with cop comments, angry a man who was lied about by a cop, isn't in jail. n/t

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed May 30, 2012, 08:48 PM

90. I didn't notice this before.

 

You've expanded your horizons to include cops outside America. I wonder what you think about those German cops who joined the protesters. Inquiring minds...never mind.

I guess the only good cops are those on your side. And since you alone represent all that is good and wholesome in humanity, cops not on your side are 'always right' -in a snark-filled broad-brush kind of way.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Thu May 31, 2012, 09:05 AM

94. Updated stats prove that Rand's post #s 72 and 90 are funnier than his #34.

He has 13 out of 92 posts, from the anti-o.p. end. Bop has 16. Those two are 'dynamic' on this o.p.

Sad that rand dropped from 16.7% to 14%, but bop rose to > 17%. Overall, the team went down from 33% to 31.5, but still receive the silver and gold medals for the anti team.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #94)

Thu May 31, 2012, 04:50 PM

97. Thank you for the stats and update!

 

For some reason I can't see them

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #97)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 04:17 AM

103. You are not missing much. NT.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #103)

Sat Jun 2, 2012, 02:22 AM

120. Friend

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #120)

Sat Jun 2, 2012, 09:08 AM

123. Solidarity, Fire. NT.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #94)

Thu May 31, 2012, 05:34 PM

100. Um, 'anti' what, precisely?

 

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #94)

Thu May 31, 2012, 08:09 PM

102. Well, it's hard work trying to justify the actions of the police since the protests began.

Especially with cases winding their way through the judicial system, and out of the realm of the propaganda machine known as the MSM. 22 cases so far have been dismissed, lawsuits are now beiing filed by Elected Officials together with the Press against the police along with protesters.

It has been revealed without a shadow of a doubt that the cops are committing perjury in these cases and are being exposed for making false arrests. Which is why the civil cases will be interesting now, with the criminal courts decisions on their side so far.

I am looking forward to the discovery phase of the two big civil cases filed against the police and their cities so far. Maybe at last we will see some badly needed changes resulting from all of this. OWS certainly shone a spotlight on police corruption and brutality, which minority communities have suffered for so long.

I would not want to be trying to defend any of this, it would definitely be a difficult task.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #102)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 04:50 AM

104. I've been following the info from the good side here, and the arguments from others.

They 'know' they're right, so they keep kicking this post, that they're sure is 'wrong', back up to the top. Har har!

Some people never believe in blatant illegal brutality from some law enforcement personnel, until it happens to them personally.

The o.p. er has created many excellent and informative o.p. s. If the other side has made any, I haven't seen them. They must have dropped like a rock. Due to the magic of the DU ideas market.

The ongoing brutality and cointelpro ops show that the big-shots are still deathly afraid of Occupy 99%ers, while pretending the movement is all but dead. Not a fun way to be proven right, though, I know.

I hope that the legal aid for the movement has some individuals like Kunstler, Ellison, Kuby, and Garry. Could bump the movement up to a higher tax bracket, as well as get more community control over the police.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #104)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 06:06 AM

107. The OP makes claims

about DUers that he hasn't backed up. I don't know anyone who holds those views, including cops. This thread appears to be nothing but flaimbait.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #107)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 09:43 AM

108. Respecfully disagree, pb.

It's a matter of perspective. I tuned in to see the reporting on actual instances of illegal thuggish police repression of peaceful pro-democracy voters. I always enjoy word from Fire and S - 1, though u4 still might be p.o.ed at me re a pro-spring 99er post I made earlier this spring.

The op said some seem to believe, and I never felt personally indicted from that. I believe the proper way to read the title is not to say 'cops are always wrong' (like rand construed it in one of his\her many posts), but 'cops are not always right, here are some specifics'.

My perspective is that some of us want to see reports of what the bad cops are up to, as they back the 1% swine. A couple of people here posted a ton of times, with down-right derision. Just getting in the way of those of us who want to hear what's going on, and learn something, or add their 2 cents worth of info or experience.

Your #107 is your perspective. My stat analysis has me agreeing with fire's perspective. Some people here don't want to hear about instances where the cops are clearly acting outside the law, and they keep tuning in to say 'shut up. we already know about it.' I tuned in because I DON'T already know about it. They could make their own o.p.s, but that's no fun, and too much trouble, evidently.

My perspective is that the law enforcement members who are crooked \ on the take, turn out to be the ones who are most violent and illegally thuggish vs. peaceful pro-democracy demonstrators, and non-criminally-connected civilians. That's not all cops, but the good ones don't want to get the Serpico treatment, so they have to tread lightly around the enterprises of the bad ones. In my area (Pittsburgh), I'll go around some municipalities (we have 130 in the county) rather than through them, because the mobbed up cops are the problem. It seems to me like the ones that are on the take are used to being bad, so hurting innocent civvies means nothing to them. Maybe mentally they're extra mad because they can't go after the real criminals they know, so they overzealously use their 'crime fighting' capabilities against soft targets, like people willing to take a peaceful protest arrest, or innocent non-politicals that are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I remember that J.E. Hoover spent all his time going after pro-democracy activists, simultaneously denying that the mafia even existed, while the tv show 'The Untouchables' was a big hit in the US.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #107)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 07:12 PM

116. All you have to do is read the thread.

Looks like the OP was right, although it's good to see that most DUers do not agree.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #104)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 04:41 PM

111. This, is apparently true, according to a former FBI agent:

The ongoing brutality and cointelpro ops show that the big-shots are still deathly afraid of Occupy 99%ers, while pretending the movement is all but dead.


I saw an interview with a former FBI agent last week who was asked why the reaction to this movement had been so brutal and so intense? He said 'because it is a threat to the Global Corps and to Wall Street. He talked about the 'terror' charges and warned that this is what they will do and expects to see more of them, to 'taint the movement' hoping that such charges, will discourage people from joining the movement. He stated that he was involved in this kind of 'work' while with the FBI himself.

So yes, they are attacking on many fronts, in the streets, on the media and with false charges, many of which have been thrown out of court btw. Seems to having the opposite effect though, worldwide.

Occupiers are going to have to protect themselves from infiltrators more than ever if he is correct.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #111)

Sat Jun 2, 2012, 02:27 AM

121. Great conversation here. I've seen advice on this topic: If someone says be violent, walk away.

 

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #111)

Sat Jun 2, 2012, 09:08 AM

122. Re your last sentence,

I posted an incorrect analysis somewhere around this site, but can't find it.

It said half of the infiltrating agents provocateurs' effectiveness would be eliminated by opposing violent actions, under and above ground. And the other half would be eliminated by not letting paranoia about u.c. cointel "pro's" prevent the movement from outreach to non-politicized 99%ers.

I was wrong, those two actions by Occupy won't eliminate 100% of the infiltrators' effectiveness. Because the authorities will continue to target 'key activists', and file false charges to bleed the movement financially, morale-wise, talent-wise, and from the p.r. point of view.

Still, the first two actions are the only ones completely under Occupy 99%ers' abilitiy to control. If anyone suggests illegal acts or goes vandal at an action, they're either a cop working for the system, or a person who's so pissed off (about the illegal and violent moves the system is making vs the movement,) that their mind has become a pawn of that system. So they're working for the cops, and not getting paid.

And if Occupy protects themselves from infiltration by turning inward and compartmentalizing, the failure to outreach to the actual 99% population will deny official 99% Occupiers the resources and support they need to fight the 1%er lackeys' effort to bleed the movement.

It's not a tightrope walk or threading the eye of a needle. Non-violence is already an official prime tenet of the movement, and if the 1% fears Occupy, that's because Occupy is still effectively outreaching. So Occupy already has step one and two vs. u.c. effectiveness covered. Every pro-occupy post on this site is good, effective outreach, so thanks to all the pro-side post-ers. The movement's objectives are ultra-patriotic, and most desireable.

Compared to combat against the third effect (bleeding), arguing against the 'anti' post-ers on this site is a walk in the park.

The movement's members should just follow the good above-ground '60's activists' advice "We don't trust people, we trust what they do." Don't write off allies, always give them a chance and the benefit of the doubt.

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