General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOK, Evil DUers: What do we do about Martin Shkreli and Turing Pharmaceuticals?
I've calmed down enough that want to get serious about this? Let's put our thinking caps on.
The goal is to sink Turing and lighten Shkreli's pocketbook.
Can we get a Boycott and Divestment movement going? Are there other assets this bastard holds that can be targeted?
Ideas are welcome. If your going to suggest anything less than legal, at least have the courtesy to suggest something that would be consistent with the spirit of nonviolent civil disobedience.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,011 posts)And I see other greedy guys trying to grab as many cheap generic drugs as they can.
The one positive thing was this guy was so brazenly and publicly cold blooded greedy.
gonna piss off a whole bunch of people, and perhaps the long over due rapacious cost of medicine to a head.
Sue the shit out of this guy.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)Remember antitrust law enforcement? I do.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)instead of a quick soundbite followed by "well, the Republicans wouldn't do it".
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Don't vote for anybody of any party who would make another Eric Holder Attorney General.
That's the easy part.
Nevertheless, we cannot afford to take no action ourselves. We cannot just vote for a candidate who will fix everything and just expect him to do it while we watch American Idol. I hope we've learned something in that last six and a half years.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)We need to find something we can act together on. I don't think we can sue as a class action suit but it we still can maybe we need to make this about more than this one case. Stop all buyouts of generic drugs. Treat them as community property - the commons.
I don't know if any of this will work but we need to start somewhere.
LuvNewcastle
(16,980 posts)be looking online for an Indian company that makes it. If there isn't one already making it, maybe we could get together and invest in a company that would.
That's what's so scary about the TPP. It will be much harder to keep from getting raped by greedy pharmaceutical companies. A lot of our energy should be spent on lobbying Congress to stop that agreement. If enough of us continue to raise hell, I suspect there will suddenly be a magical solution to make this drug affordable. Of course, we'll have to fight more battles in the future for other over-priced drugs.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Yes, the whole idea is to make an end run around democratic government. Whatever we do to Shkerli could be thought of as a dress rehearsal for what we can do to any corporate exec who even talks out loud about going to an ISDS to invalidate regulations or law promoting health, safety and human rights,
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)cheaper alternatives?
At that price there must be cheaper routes to get medication even if it involves frequent trips across borders.
LiberalArkie
(16,123 posts)groundloop
(12,075 posts)They say a prescription is required but just of of curiosity I went all the way to the checkout page with no hassles. Kind of sounds like when I buy pet meds from overseas.
On further reflection, how about forming an 'Occupy Big Pharma' group that imports inexpensive medicine from Europe or Canada and distributes it to people who truly cannot afford it at cost?
reformist2
(9,841 posts)You start to wonder, when will we the people ever wake up? Or are we going to let them steal every penny we have?
Duppers
(28,208 posts)I like it!
But Occupy Big Pharma would be better as everyone could be included. Seriously good idea. Leave it to the feds to object though.
You saw the movie, right?
LiberalArkie
(16,123 posts)TubbersUK
(1,441 posts)FuzzyRabbit
(2,062 posts)Good idea for the short term.
I have a friend who vacations in Mexico every year. While there he sees his dentist for about a third of what it costs in the US. I would probably vacation in Canada (a 3 hour drive away) and see a doctor there if a medicine was too expensive here.
BigDemVoter
(4,487 posts)Not sure. . . . This would take quite a bit of investigation to prove it, but I bet something that smells like shit is going on somewhere. . .
"Racketeering refers to criminal activity that is performed to benefit an organization such as a crime syndicate. Examples of racketeering activity include extortion, money laundering, loan sharking, obstruction of justice and bribery."
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Which goes to show that Emile Zola was right when he said The law is an ass.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)difference other than that.
NBachers
(17,885 posts)Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)I think this guy should be a higher priority for them than trophy hunters, although I won't disapprove of whatever they do any of them.
NBachers
(17,885 posts)ancianita
(37,934 posts)PasadenaTrudy
(3,998 posts)all over twitter and Facebook now, so that's a start.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)The problem is a government created crisis.
Let the consumer import medicines from canada, europe and asia. You'll stop this nonsense in a minute.
It's the government, through the regulatory and enforcement agencies that have created this problem.
Go import a competitor/generic to this drug and see who the enforcers of this madness are, hint it's not turing pharma.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)The government laid clear a way to an opportunity and Mr. Shkreli took it.
However, I'm a personal responsibility kinda guy, Therefore, I am holding Mr. Shkreli personally responsible for his own sociopathology.
840high
(17,196 posts)blue neen
(12,398 posts)a little background on what this is about, please? Thanks.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Please click here.
blue neen
(12,398 posts)This part of the original article is priceless:
"Martin Shkreli, the founder and chief executive of Turing, said that the drug is so rarely used that the impact on the health system would be minuscule and that Turing would use the money it earns to develop better treatments for toxoplasmosis, with fewer side effects."
This isnt the greedy drug company trying to gouge patients, it is us trying to stay in business, Mr. Shkreli said. He said that many patients use the drug for far less than a year and that the price was now more in line with those of other drugs for rare diseases."
This is still one of the smallest pharmaceutical products in the world, he said. It really doesnt make sense to get any criticism for this.
"This is not the first time the 32-year-old Mr. Shkreli, who has a reputation for both brilliance and brashness, has been the center of controversy. He started MSMB Capital, a hedge fund company, in his 20s and drew attention for urging the Food and Drug Administration not to approve certain drugs made by companies whose stock he was shorting."
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/business/a-huge-overnight-increase-in-a-drugs-price-raises-protests.html
This is criminal behavior. At least it ought to be...
Thanks for the link.
Lancero
(3,087 posts)groundloop
(12,075 posts)blue neen
(12,398 posts)Like any typical sociopath, though, he acts like he is doing everyone a huge favor.
salin
(48,958 posts)Most healthy people don't earn 76K per year. Meanwhile the same medicine costs under $2.00 in other countries meaning the full course would cost $200 - and the US lower price of $1350 was already deeply inflated.
Now compare $200 to $76,000. UK and Canadian costs compared to new US costs.
blue neen
(12,398 posts)This means, of course, that people will die because of this s.o.b.'s greed. Horrible.
Iggo
(48,143 posts)I don't plan to do anything other than expend a little shodden-fruity.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Let's be the agent of his karma. There's nothing that says we can't be.
blue neen
(12,398 posts)Enormous amounts of cat shit would probably be very helpful in the research...too bad the kitty cats of the world can't unite to help him in his endeavor.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)I'm thinking many fines and a major realignment in how this asshole does business.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Perhaps that needs to change.
Meanwhile, it's up to us to hold his feet to the fire.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)also, this is the second time he's tried something like this...he got fired as CEO of Retrophin, his previous company, for trying to do something similar last year with Thiola, a drug used to treat cystinuria, an incurable kidney disease. That company sued him for $65M for misuse of company funds.
Also, he's apparently in the habit of stalking former employees he feuded with, online bullying their children and making lewd comments to their wives.
This DB article does a particularly-great job of demonstrating the precise asshole that he is.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/21/martin-shkreli-is-big-pharma-s-biggest-asshole.html?via=desktop&source=facebook
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Pricing might be FTC?
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)Business and provide the medication at the old price?
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Given the present make up of the Supreme Court, with five corporate shysters holding all the cards, we're sure to lose.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)Either would cost him millions and probably bankrupt Turing as he borrowed the money to fund the purchase. If the FDA destroys demand, he won't be able to generate sufficient revenues to service his debt.
Ms. Toad
(35,259 posts)His company is just the only one with an FDA approved generic.
The cost of establishing that something else is equivalent (especially now that he has jacked the price up on the samples needed to prove it) is cost prohibitive for a low cost drug with a small market. Exactly what he's counting on - as soon as there is another generic equivalent at a reasonable cost, he will no longer be able to sell his product at $750 a pill.
I suspect he searched very carefully for a company with this kind of drug (one of a kind generic, the only effective treatment for a devastating disease that is rare) with the intent of doing just what he has done.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)New science says it's much more common than thought and may cAuse depression and anxiety ...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25185399
Ms. Toad
(35,259 posts)But you're right - its presence is common. That's why pregnant women are encouraged not to clean the catbox - it is a common parasite that is considered harmless (and not diagnosed) except in pregnant women and people whose immune systems are compromised.
If asymptomatic toxoplasmosis was diagnosed and treated universally - and not just in the people with the commonly recognized symptoms, this jerk would not be able to get away with what he is doing because it would be profitable for many entities to make the drug.
ancianita
(37,934 posts)A number of American chartered pharmaceuticals overprice Americans so they can sell it at a low competitive price in socialist countries. I know. I saw lower priced American products last fall.
salin
(48,958 posts)why we need to change our patent laws - OR - if we (our govt) is too weak to stand up to such abuse (the same course [to cure] of medicine, from my reading, would cost under $200 in the UK and Canada, but prior to the hike would cost around $1350 (same medicine) in the US - and NOW will cost more than $75,000 in the US) to get rid of the ban on drug importation. And to disabuse the idea that the US has the best heal care in the world.
Compare $200 for a full course (Canada & UK) of treatment to $75,000 (US). Yea US citizens - bankruptcy for anyone outside of the top 20+% who get a parasitic illness that could be cured by this drug. Who would not be bankrupted for the same illness in many other developed countries. Aren't we privileged to be required to pay more than $74,000 than people in the UK or Canada.
Ms. Toad
(35,259 posts)He carefully selected a drug that had no equivalent, with a small but desperate population, waited until he had control of it and had changed the distribution model to exponentially boost the price.
While there are no laws prohibiting another company from coming up with another generic, it is now cost prohibitive to purchase the samples they need to prove the equivalence (a necessary step before licensing it) since he controls the market of sample pills.
mopinko
(71,425 posts)heard it in the car today. guessin he will think a little harder the next time. unfortunately, he will probably only think about how to be sneakier.
Ms. Toad
(35,259 posts)The patent on daraprim, a 60 year old drug, has to have expired decades ago. Patents are only valid for around 20 years, and cannot be extended.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)Ms. Toad
(35,259 posts)I did a quick search last night and didn't find it - there are lots of patents which include the main ingredient - and patents issued prior to 1975 (as this one probably was) are less easily text-searchable. The earliest easily locatable patent (1989) for a drug to replace Pyrimethamine for treating toxoplasmosis discusses it as the treatment standard , so the patent (assuming one exists) was issued prior to 1989. If you want to search, you can search google patents, or at http://www.uspto.gov/patents-application-process/search-patents
I didn't spend a lot of time, since any patent on a 60 year old drug expired years ago - but if it had been easy to find I would have dumped it in the thread.
mopinko
(71,425 posts)eta, in that case i dont get what the problem is.
if it isnt under any kind of patent, then how could this one guy, who isnt even a manufacturer, affect the price?
Ms. Toad
(35,259 posts)I'm less familiar with the FDA approval process, and how those rights are transferred. But drugs aren't like other products that were originally subject to patents. In that case, once the patent expires everyone is free to manufacture it. And another entity could manufacture the drug now - the problem is that before you can market it you have to go through rigorous testing by the FDA to prove it is chemical composition and bioavailability have to be equivalent - which require comparison samples - which are now an additional exhorbitant cost.
So as long as you control the only FDA approval, you can charge whatever you want. You can't prevent competitors from the market - but the process of obtaining approval does unless the drug is ultimately profitable. Which is why he chose a drug which is desperately needed (people will buy the drug/insurance companies will pay for it) - but for which there is a very limited market (few cases a year mean it isn't worth it for a new company to go through the process of obtaining FDA approval).
TubbersUK
(1,441 posts)According to Wikipedia it's an 'essential medicine' :
"It is on the World Health Organization's List of Essential Medicines, the most important medications needed in a basic health system."
Institutional Customers can only obtain it from the Daraprim Direct program (or Walgreens Specialty for patient purchase)
"In the U.S. as of 2015, with the acquisition of Daraprim tablets by Turing Pharmaceuticals,[13] pyrimethamine has become a single-source and specialty pharmacy item, and the cost of pyrimethamine has increased.[14] The cost of a monthly course for a person on 75 mg rose to about $75,000/month, from $13/tablet to $833/tablet,[15] or $750 per tablet per a New York Times report from September 2015.[16] Outpatients can no longer obtain pyrimethamine from their community pharmacy, but only through a single dispensing pharmacy, Walgreens Specialty Pharmacy, and institutions can no longer order from their general wholesaler, but have to set up an account with the Daraprim Direct program"
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Find out which docs are participating in these trials, then picket those docs' places of work, handing leaflets to patients. The docs will go nuts and might well withdraw, which would be a disaster for Turing.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)You're one of the best troopers at DU.
FuzzyRabbit
(2,062 posts)Turing Pharmaceuticals LLC
1177 Avenue of the Americas, 39th Floor
New York, NY 10036
Tel: 1.646.356.5577
For media inquiries, contact:
Alan Ripp
[email protected]
TygrBright
(20,958 posts)oldandhappy
(6,719 posts)We need to flood the company with email. Please join me. All I said was, 'Well, you sure got noticed.' They know.
We need to ask a friendly doctor or three if there are alternative treatments.
We need to find a way to let patients know of alternative treatments in order to get the money out of Shkrili's pocket. Are there support groups for these patients?
Some of you mentioned sites for international ordering. We need to distribute that info. Excellent. Love the idea of setting up distribution of the cheaper meds, but that will get complicated. Better to provide information to each patient to do their own ordering.
Something on YouTube??
I have tried to interest professional dental groups on some issues faced by older folk with fragile mouth tissues. No response, so am inclined to ignore the professional medical groups.
I wonder if someone knows how to do that White House thing where you set up a petition and get 100,000 signatures and then the WH has to look at the situation?
Guess that is it for me tonight. Will be watching to see if I can support any group efforts.
Response to Jack Rabbit (Original post)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)So tell me, Dr. Words, what is your diagnosis of the disease?
drm604
(16,230 posts)People can't boycott lifesaving drugs. That's the problem here. People NEED what he's selling so he figures he can charge anything he wants and get it.
So there seem to be two approaches here. One, the ideal, would be regulation. That may be difficult given the current state of our government (Republican intransigence on pretty much everything). The other is simply for people who act like this to face massive public disapproval. This kind of behavior needs to become shameful and unacceptable.
Make people who act like this pariahs: Child beaters, pedophiles, rapists, and medicine price gougers.
Currently, this guy's name and face are all over Facebook and everywhere else. He's facing massive public shaming and pressure. I'm hoping that we'll see a change in the pricing of this drug in the near future.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)From what I've read about Martin Shkreli today, assuming he backs down on this, I wouldn't trust him not to be back with something just as outrageous, just as socially harmful and just as profitable to him as this scheme next week.
What we have in Mr. Shkreli is greedy, brash sociopath, a younger version of Donald Trump who can't be trusted with the power his ability to make money brings.
drm604
(16,230 posts)He may back down on this and then, when the public and the media move onto the next big thing, he'll go right back to the same behavior, except possibly in smaller and less visible ways. I suppose that what we can hope for is that the next group of people he hurts will also be vocal and that he'll again come to the attention of the public.
I don't know if people like him can feel shame, but public shaming can have real personal and business consequences beyond just emotional.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Which I think is what you're worried about. To my thinking (maybe I play too much chess), people are going to die either way, either because the medication is not available or because it costs more than most people who need it can afford. Therefore, I would put the screws to Shrkreli with the goal of making him give up control of the drug so that it could then be marketed at a reasonable price. The "free market" solution, in which Mr. Shkreli retains control of the drug and sells it at a price that he names, would simply be an unacceptable outcome to anyone except an individual who had his mind warped reading Atlas Shrugged in high school.
We won't be saving any lives by giving in, but lives will be lost. Personally, I would feel a great deal of guilt, but it's still better than doing nothing.
Our man said at Liberty University last week that this sort of thing is a moral issue. I agree with him. Dr. King would said it is a moral issue, and I would have agreed with him, too.
drm604
(16,230 posts)And Hillary Clinton has spoken out on this. Hopefully network news and mass media in general will pick up on this.
They showed clips of Shkreli being interviewed. He was quite smug when asked if he will change his mind about the price increase. His response was a calm unemotional "no". He's seems convinced that he's doing the right thing. Now we'll see how he holds up to the public scrutiny and pressure.
JI7
(90,188 posts)since it's medication it's not something people can easily boycott .
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)This guy looks like he has a high probability of dying from blood loss in an alley behind a nightclub while collecting his teeth from the urine soaked pavement.
eridani
(51,907 posts)By Joseph E. Stiglitz
http://books.wwnorton.com/books/detail.aspx?id=4294967848
The term rent was originally used to describe the returns to land, since the owner of the land receives these payments by virtue of his ownership and not because of anything he does. This stands in contrast to the situation of workers, for example, whose wages are compensation for the effort they provide. The term rent then was extended to include monopoly profits, or monopoly rents, the income that one receives simply from the control of a monopoly. Eventually the term was expanded still further to include the returns on similar ownership claims.
Not all rent seeking uses government to extract money from ordinary citizens. The private sector can excel on its own, extracting rents from the public, for instance, through monopolistic practices and exploiting those who are less informed and educated, exemplified by the banks predatory lending. CEOs can use their control of the corporation to garner for themselves a larger fraction of the firms revenues. Here, though, the government too plays a role, by not doing what it should: by not stopping these activities, by not making them illegal, or by not enforcing laws that exist.
Comment by Don McCanne of PNHP: The pharmaceutical industry has run amok, and we are all suffering as a result. We are paying higher taxes and higher insurance premiums to create rents for the likes of Martin Shkreli. (Youll understand what this means if you simply read the excerpts above.)
We should all be outraged, not only with the barons in the pharmaceutical industry, but even more with our own government, which, as Joseph Stiglitz tells us, is not doing what it should.
One of our candidates for president says that he can't do it alone. We have got to do it together through a strong grassroots movement. We have got to think big.
Start thinking big.
LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)Same thing has happened in CANADA - another fkg hedge fund and an old off-patent drug:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141213396
Source: CBC News | Health
Front-line tuberculosis doctors in Canada were recently sticker shocked that the price of an essential medication for drug-resistant TB went through the roof for no apparent reason.
Cycloserine is a critical drug used to treat a rare and dangerous form of multidrug-resistant tuberculosis.
Overnight in North America, cycloserine went from $15 US per pill to $360 US.
mopinko
(71,425 posts)i am fb friend w a guy who rescues sick wild parrots in san fran. the telegraph hill parrots.
he says they use this drug, as there is a parasite endemic in that population that kills many of them.
they would be hit hard.
mitty14u2
(1,015 posts)U.S. law generally views monopolies as harmful because they obstruct the channels of free competition that determine the price and quality of products and services that are offered to the public. The owners of a monopoly have the power, as a group, to set prices, to exclude competitors, and to control the market in the relevant geographic area. U.S. antitrust laws prohibit monopolies and any other practices that unduly restrain competitive trade. These laws are based on the belief that equality of opportunity in the marketplace and the free interactions of competitive forces result in the best allocation of the economic resources of the nation. Moreover, it is assumed that competition enhances material progress in production and technology while preserving democratic, political, and social institutions.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/monopoly
Big Business has been snubbing there nose at Monopoly laws like Anti Trust laws as hollow words not meant for those in big business like oil or Pharmaceuticals!