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choie

(4,107 posts)
Mon Dec 26, 2011, 03:43 AM Dec 2011

Paul Disowns Extremists’ Views but Doesn’t Disavow the Support

New York Times

By JIM RUTENBERG and SERGE F. KOVALESKI
Published: December 25, 2011

The American Free Press, which markets books like “The Invention of the Jewish People” and “March of the Titans: A History of the White Race,” is urging its subscribers to help it send hundreds of copies of Ron Paul’s collected speeches to voters in New Hampshire. The book, it promises, will “Help Dr. Ron Paul Win the G.O.P. Nomination in 2012!”

Don Black, director of the white nationalist Web site Stormfront, said in an interview that several dozen of his members were volunteering for Mr. Paul’s presidential campaign, and a site forum titled “Why is Ron Paul such a favorite here?” has no fewer than 24 pages of comments. “I understand he wins many fans because his monetary policy would hurt Jews,” read one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/26/us/politics/ron-paul-disowns-extremists-views-but-doesnt-disavow-the-support.html?ref=us

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napoleon_in_rags

(3,991 posts)
1. Yada, Yada, Yada.
Mon Dec 26, 2011, 04:04 AM
Dec 2011

The critiques here have move so far away from neocons I feel compelled to speak up a bit.

The mummified remains of paleo-conservatism are being exhumed, with liberals staring at the mummy yelling "gross"! And I'm still sitting here saying "Yeah, but the sad truth is, its still better than neo-conservatism."

And I stand by that. My hope for the 2012 Republican Republican is that they won't elect another Bush, another neoconservative. Yes, I would prefer Pat Buchanan. Ron Paul. Whatever, even though I don't prescribe their views. Why?

Because of the simple fact that words don't equal dead bodies. What you have left over from the Bush administration is 100,000 dead Iraqis who lost their lives because they were pursuing a non-existent WMD program. Men, women, children. You also have about 5,000 dead US troops who lost their lives stopping the non existent Iraqi nuclear program. You have our civil liberties gone. That's substantial, that's real. If you want me to worry about somebody other than neoconservatives, you've got to show me the mountain of corpses. Not words, not wayward wieners, not articles with academic errors, but corpses, and billions in spending to have created those corpses. Nobody else, no matter how much you or I dislike their principles, stacks up to the fundamental Bush Cheney wrongs that were done to this country.

LeftishBrit

(41,202 posts)
3. It's not a choice between Paul and Cheney
Mon Dec 26, 2011, 05:31 AM
Dec 2011

And the difference between 'words' and 'dead bodies' is basically the difference between 'not in power' and 'in power'.

People don't only die in wars. They die from poverty and lack of healthcare. Look up the life expectancy statistics in countries that have Paul's desired lack of public services, social safety nets, and protection against extreme poverty. Look up the life expectancy statistics in the USA, at the beginning of the 20th century, a time to which Paul would clearly like to go back. Yes, medical advances have improved life expectancy, but medical advances are no use to those who are deprived of access to them - and Paul explicitly states that just because someone needs healthcare doesn't mean they are entitled to it.

As regards racial issues, Jim Crow was a lot more than 'words' to people who lived through it; and Paul seems quite happy to reverse laws such as the Voting Rights Act, and leave decisions on racial matters to the states.

But I think that some of the arguments about the level of responsibility that Paul did or didn't have for material in his newsletters have obscured the evil of some of the opinions that he has undoubtedly stated and proudly owns. From his speech 'A Republic if You Can Keep It':

'In truth, the amount of taxes we now pay compared to 100 years ago is shocking. There is little philosophic condemnation by the intellectual community, the political leaders, or the media of this immoral system. This should be a warning sign to all of us that, even in less prosperous times, we can expect high taxes and that our productive economic system will come under attack. Not only have we seen little resistance to the current high tax system, it has become an acceptable notion that this system is moral and is a justified requirement to finance the welfare/warfare state. Propaganda polls are continuously cited claiming that the American people don't want tax reductions. High taxes, except for only short periods of time, are incompatible with liberty and prosperity....

We will, I'm sure, be given the opportunity in the early part of this next century to make a choice between the two. I am certain of my preference.

There was no welfare state in 1900. In the year 2000 we have a huge welfare state, which continues to grow each year. Not that special-interest legislation didn't exist in the 19th Century, but for the most part, it was limited and directed toward moneyed interests--the most egregious example being the railroads.

The modern-day welfare state has steadily grown since the Great Depression of the 1930s. The federal government is now involved in providing health care, houses, unemployment benefits, education, food stamps to millions, plus all kinds of subsidies to every conceivable special-interest group. Welfare is now part of our culture, costing hundreds of billions of dollars every year. It is now thought to be a "right," something one is "entitled" to. Calling it an "entitlement" makes it sound proper and respectable and not based on theft. Anyone who has a need, desire, or demand and can get the politicians' attention will get what he wants, even though it may be at the expense of someone else. Today it is considered morally right and politically correct to promote the welfare state. Any suggestion otherwise is considered political suicide.

The acceptance of the welfare ethic and rejection of the work ethic as the accepted process for improving one's economic conditions are now ingrained in our political institutions. This process was started in earnest in the 1930s, received a big boast in the 1960s, and has continued a steady growth, even through the 1990s, despite some rhetoric in opposition. This public acceptance has occurred in spite of the fact that there is no evidence that welfare is a true help in assisting the needy. Its abject failure around the world where welfarism took the next step into socialism has even a worse record...

With the modern-day interpretation of the general welfare clause, the principle of individual liberty and the doctrine of enumerated powers have been made meaningless. The goal of strictly limiting the power of our national government as was intended by the Constitution is impossible to achieve as long as it is acceptable for Congress to redistribute wealth in an egalitarian welfare state. There's no way that personal liberty will not suffer with every effort to expand or make the welfare state efficient. And the sad part is that the sincere efforts to help people do better economically through welfare programs always fail. Dependency replaces self-reliance while the sense of self worth of the recipient suffers, making for an angry, unhappy, and dissatisfied society. The cost in dollar terms is high, but the cost in terms of liberty is even greater, but generally ignored, and in the long run, there's nothing to show for this sacrifice.

Today, there's no serious effort to challenge welfare as a way of life, and its uncontrolled growth in the next economic downturn is to be expected. Too many citizens now believe they are "entitled" to monetary assistance from the government anytime they need it, and they expect it. Even in times of plenty, the direction has been to continue expanding education, welfare, and retirement benefits. No one asks where the government gets the money to finance the welfare state. Is it morally right to do so? Is it authorized in the Constitution? Does it help anyone in the long run? Who suffers from the policy? Until these questions are seriously asked and correctly answered, we cannot expect the march toward a pervasive welfare state to stop, and we can expect our liberties to be continuously compromised.'


Evil evil evil.


All right-wingers are dangerous monsters!

napoleon_in_rags

(3,991 posts)
9. I appreciate that post, because you are looking at policy. Real policy advocated by these guys.
Mon Dec 26, 2011, 07:44 PM
Dec 2011

You are saying that an eradication of welfare programs, regulations and etc. could result in a lot of dead people too, and I agree with that. THAT'S THE POWER OF UNITED STATES POLICY, it can kill people or bring prosperity by the millions. But what's driving me crazy is that nobody else is attacking along those lines, its the same old garbage of somebody said something scandalous, or slept with somebody the shouldn't have, or said something which is contradictory to their public stance. Its this DC reality TV show, this realm of gods and goddesses, where one of them having an affair or saying the wrong thing can stop legislation in its tracks that could have benefited millions us mere mortals, but we were are less important than their turns of phrase.

So yes, I respect that. I think Paul's fiscal policies are insane, overtly insane. Out loud and proud insane. And I think that's way, way better than neocon covert insanity.

What happened from 2000-2008 is a the spending went so through the roof, the revenue got so cut, the economy so damaged that a situation was created where the only way to solvency is through major austerity actions, like cutting the welfare social safety net programs way down. Nothing that's going on now is coming close to touching the spending reductions that are now required. Its not a situation of the people of the US choosing a more minimal role of government in these things and picking a Ron Paul, its a situation of it being forced on them by whoever ends up holding the bag when the debt hits the fan, which may just as likely be a Democrat who has to do the dirty work. Its about the unwilling implementation of these policies, while tax revenue was handed to the rich, not back to the people. That's the neocon legacy.

I hear you saying "All right-wingers are dangerous monsters!" Watch Eisenhower's speech against the military industrial complex:


And tell me that Republican was really evil. What people are not seeing is that things have gone, way, way, WAY downhill to get us to the 2000-2008 situation. The neocon endpoint, is by my calculations, the worse thing for the country so far, and just about any movement the republicans take away from it, in any direction, is going to be positive for their party and the for the country.

bullwinkle428

(20,628 posts)
12. Please - the Republican party of the Eisenhower era was to the left of today's Democratic
Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:02 PM
Dec 2011

party on certain issues!

napoleon_in_rags

(3,991 posts)
13. Like I said, way, way downhill.
Tue Dec 27, 2011, 03:32 AM
Dec 2011
We pray that peoples of all faiths, all races, all nations, may have their great human needs satisfied; that those now denied opportunity shall come to enjoy it to the full; that all who yearn for freedom may experience its spiritual blessings; that those who have freedom will understand, also, its heavy responsibilities; that all who are insensitive to the needs of others will learn charity; that the scourges of poverty, disease and ignorance will be made to disappear from the earth, and that, in the goodness of time, all peoples will come to live together in a peace guaranteed by the binding force of mutual respect and love.

From the same speech. I learned of it from a cell phone commercial. It had the clip from 15:15 to 15:27:

over John Lennon's Imagine. We have lost a simple goodness that we used to have in this country.
 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
5. Here is your Uncle Pat on Hitler:
Mon Dec 26, 2011, 08:51 AM
Dec 2011

"an individual of great courage.... Hitler's success was not based on his extraordinary gifts alone. His genius was an intuitive sense of the mushiness, the character flaws, the weakness masquerading as morality that was in the hearts of the statesmen who stood in his path."
So do you agree?
I know Cable tells you he's charming. He's not. Maddow took millions to call him sweet names and play patsy cake with homophobic hate. She HAS to smile at him, for her supper. Not me.
He is a huge bigot and war monger. Not a shred superior to other bigots and war mongers.

napoleon_in_rags

(3,991 posts)
10. Do I agree Hitler was a genius?
Mon Dec 26, 2011, 08:01 PM
Dec 2011

No, but I've heard a lot of history buffs say that, come from that angle that Hitler was really architect of the Third Reich single handedly, and therefore must have been some kind of genius. I for one think he was more of a front man for a much larger movement, sort of an angry pundit type that they used to give a face to their more secretive core, that's more consistent with my world view. But I'm not a historian.

As far as my argument of why the neocons are the worst conservatives ever, and why any movement from conservatives away from them is an improvement, see then paragraph 3 of post #9.

NNN0LHI

(67,190 posts)
6. You would prefer Pat Buchanan or Ron Paul
Mon Dec 26, 2011, 09:28 AM
Dec 2011

I can't believe what I am reading here.

Never sent an alert yet on DU3 but I am getting damn tempted on this one.

Don

napoleon_in_rags

(3,991 posts)
8. Yes, I prefer paleo-conservatives over neocons. You know who else I would prefer over them? Nixon.
Mon Dec 26, 2011, 07:00 PM
Dec 2011

If the choice is between Nixon and Bush Cheney, Nixon by a mile.

As far as I am concerned, nothing is or was worse than the policies from 2000-2008. Everything that's been bad about the Obama administration is carried over from those years.

choie

(4,107 posts)
2. why does it have to be either - or?
Mon Dec 26, 2011, 04:11 AM
Dec 2011

Sure, the Libertarian freaks don't have 5000 dead americans (not to mention a million Iraqis and Afghans) on their conscience, but they haven't been in power yet? That shouldn't take away from the pure xenophobia, racism et al inherent in Paul's beliefs. Come on now...

Kennah

(14,234 posts)
4. No 5K dead only because the Libertarian freaks haven't yet ruled
Mon Dec 26, 2011, 06:22 AM
Dec 2011

We see what fucktards the Tea Party freaks in Congress are. Imagine those fucktards along with a Tea Party freak in the Oval Office.

Be afraid.
Scratch.
Be scared outta your fucking mind.

Puregonzo1188

(1,948 posts)
11. "The Invention of the Jewish People' is published by Verso, a Progressive leftwing press and was
Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:09 PM
Dec 2011

written by a historian at the University of Tel Aviv. It was a bestseller in Israel and was a fairly critically acclaimed book.

I know this is off-topic, but that jumped out my right away and unless there is a different book with the same title, I am slightly disturbed by the New York Times article's implications.

agentS

(1,325 posts)
16. Guilt by association? or The KKKompany you keep?
Tue Dec 27, 2011, 11:11 AM
Dec 2011

Oh, 4 years ago, everybody complained about Rev. Wright and Tony Rezco and Bill Ayers!
Compared to Ron Paul's associates and supporters, Obama's friends are practically saints!

Why is it that every conservative politician from teh South has a race problem? And why can't they sort these problems out BEFORE running for high office?!

And they wonder why black folks won't vote for them...

Veracious

(234 posts)
17. Mmhmm yeah yeah keep defending bigots..
Tue Dec 27, 2011, 02:36 PM
Dec 2011

There's no excuse for any defense of either Neocons or Libetarians they are both wrong and so are the people defending them.

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