If you're an American citizen of European ancestry and opposed to immigration, you're a hypocrite

[CreekDog]

It's that simple. You wouldn't be here without immigration from there to here.

Not saying or suggesting it's okay to be anti immigration if you aren't of European descent, but the European case is particularly hypocritical.

(And I am of European ancestry, so I'm not calling names, just pointing out the obvious)

[Llewlladdwr]

1. Uh, no.

How can decisions made by people in 1884 possibly have any binding hold on my opinions regarding immigration in 2015?

[JoePhilly]

31. Is that when all of our European ancestors got here?

I know MANY Italian-Americans who were 2nd generation in the 80s ... Granny was from the old country, some of the parents brought as infants, or born here ... their kids were the first born on US soil.

But they were European. So its ok.

[Kurska]

2. There is a gradient between

1. All the immigrants from everywhere in unlimited numbers.

and

2. No immigrants from anywhere.

People have a right to decide what they support.

Everyone's ancestors have immigrated from somewhere else at some point. Human populations move, that is just what they do. That isn't a uniquely European phenomenon.

[HFRN]

26. many try to frame any consideration about numbers/capacity as being '2 No immigrants from anywhere'

and 'racism'

[Marr]

3. I disagree.

Not that I'm anti-immigration, but it's about having a sound national policy. That's something to be determined year by year, according to what makes sense at any given time.

[Comrade Grumpy]

19. Our politics have prevented us from having a sound national immigration policy.

Bush tried it.

Obama tried it.

Congress stops it.

[dumbcat]

4. You are wrong

Whatever my ancestors that immigrated to this country in 1710 did, or thought, has absolutely no bearing on my thoughts and/or opinions.

And for the record, I am not opposed to immigration, only illegal immigration.

Your post is stupid (not you, your post.) (That's an opinion.)

[cali]

5. well, everyone's a hypocrite. "Only hypocrites cannot forgive hypocrisy"

But beyond that, I think you have to define immigration.

[WestCoastLib]

6. If you are a human being and opposed to murder you're a hypocrite

It's that simple. You have ancestors that committed murder.

ETA: I am not, in any way, opposed to immigration. I am opposed to illogical arguments.

[KamaAina]

7. Ah yes, the drawbridge mentality.

"We got here, so the rest of you can f---k off!"

[AngryAmish]

8. Everyone everywhere is an immigrant by ancestry.

However, that does not mean we cannot hold certain opinions.

[MFrohike]

35. Not if we all move to Kenya!

We could have humanity's great homecoming party!

[AngryAmish]

36. I wonder if all the humanoids evolved in west africa.

Neanderthal and Devisonians. Probably, based on genetic timing. We are finally untying that knot.

[Sherman A1]

9. Interesting

I find it more than a bit odd, but we are all entitled to our opinions.

[LexVegas]

10. White people support immigration by other white people. nt.

[CreekDog]

27. i've noticed the pattern

for example, when my family came over, there were effectively no laws regarding immigration, so it was all legal, so to speak.

now that there are laws, many people whose ancestors came over as mine did, are suddenly very, very, very against illegal immigration of any kind and often against the amount of legal immigration currently allowed.

even if there's justification for the limitations, let's face it, anybody who supports those limitations when the reason they are here is because there weren't when their ancestors came here...that's hypocritical, no two ways about it.

[nomorenomore08]

54. +2

I have Scottish, English, and possibly German ancestors who were here by the 18th century. No "papers" back then.

[Facility Inspector]

11. gringo grandpas and grandmas got a free pass way back when

all they had to do was not have TB.

They had complete freedom to communicate in their native tongues back then.

[AngryAmish]

38. My grandpappy got bounced for TB.

Caught it in the hospital when he blew himself up making bombs in 1916.

I have the same name. TSA stops me less nowadays, but my father in law has been on various state dept. shit lists since he shares a hometown and name as a lot of ISI dudes. Traveling as a family means extra time for everyone...

[pampango]

12. Perhaps but the opposition to immigration targeted the Irish then the Know Nothings came along

in the 1850's then the Chinese Exclusion Act in the 1880's then the Harding and Coolidge restrictive immigration laws in the 1920's. Only in the 1960's under JFK and LBJ did immigration really open up.

Basically there has been a segment of the population that has felt there were "too many immigrants" since the country was founded. The sentiment always seems to be "past immigration was good. (Otherwise, I wouldn't be here.) But now (1820, 1920, 2015) there are too many immigrants. They are competing for jobs and not speaking English."

[Shandris]

17. Are people really upset about immigration?

I know they are about unlawful immigration, but I haven't heard anyone locally complain about immigrants as a group, and 'local' of course includes my sizable family of Republicans.

[pampango]

22. Depends on the "people". Some on the right view all immigrants as competition for jobs,

as Democratic dupes, as the "diversity" that imperils white culture and control. Hence the plethora of restrictive immigration laws under republicans going back 130 years.

And many on the right have always viewed immigrants this way, going back at least 200 years, even when all immigration was "legal".

Some on the right have initially concentrated their wrath on "illegal" immigrants in the same way that the concentrated on "welfare queens" as the opening move in discrediting, and later defunding the safety net. If you talk down "illegal immigrants" and "welfare queens" for long enough, it becomes easier to attack immigration and the safety net in general than if you had targeted them immediately and been written off as a right wing crackpot.

Some conservatives seem to have a long term strategy for accomplishing policy goals which is, unfortunately, often quite effective.

[Shandris]

23. Would seem like a stretch to me but...

...but I have been accused of being a bit on the naive side more than once, so I'll acknowledge you may well be right. For what it's worth, not everyone on the right is like that as I wasn't raised that way. It's repulsive that there are people who are.

As for the long term policy goals, yeah, they did have some that worked pretty well (sadly), but there is plenty of pushback these days. There'd be more if we can find the decent among the right and work with them (because there are some whether people like to admit it or not, just not among their leaders), but right now that's still a ways off I fear. I hope they don't wait too much longer though, I'd like to see some freedom to move in the world before I die.

[brooklynite]

20. No - there has been a segment opposed to immigration "of the wrong kind".

[CTyankee]

13. My forbear on my mother's side immigrated from Scotland during The Clearances.

I have no idea whether he was legal or not. On my father's side, his grandfather immigrated from Wales...again, no record of him being legal. For all I know, they snuck in...

[Snobblevitch]

14. That's a broad brush you are wielding.

Illegal vs. legal immigration.

[LanternWaste]

15. I don't think the Tuscarora tribal nations thought the immigration of the colonists was legal.

I don't think the Tuscarora tribal nations, or the Penobscot, or the Creek thought the immigration of the colonists was legal.

Broad brush, part II.

[Snobblevitch]

21. Here we go...

[Syzygy321]

42. Well, their ancestors snuck over illegally

when sea levels fell and belugas were briefly unable to continue working as border guards on the northeast coast of Siberia. So by OP's logic they would have been hypocrites to object to any subseuent stream of newcomers.

[davidn3600]

16. I think it's "illegal immigration" that most people have a problem with

If you enter the country illegally or overstay your visa, you are breaking the law. My great-grandparents were immigrants, but they didn't break the law to come here.

There is no nation on Earth that just lets you walk in, set up shop, and stay as long as you want legally. It just doesn't work that way. Every country has a immigration process. You have to go through that process or you are breaking the law.

Those people who are against ALL forms of immigration are likely in a very small minority.

[Gormy Cuss]

29. Yeah, mine entered legally too. It was easy. They came before the barn door was closed. n/t

[Recursion]

47. I don't know... people seem to really dislike H-1B's, and that's one of the most common

ways that people enter the US and start to acquire permanent residence.

[davidn3600]

48. Yeah, when companies use those H1Bs to replace American workers for cheaper wages

That's the government's fault for not policing those companies.

No doubt there is corruption involved in that.

[Recursion]

50. Which part of the government is being corrupt? (nt)

[davidn3600]

51. Political parties

If you really believe companies are not taking advantage of the H1B visa program to reduce labor costs, you are blind.

That's not fear-mongering against immigrants... it's reality. Disney just did it earlier this year. They even forced American workers to train their foreign replacements. Google it.

[Recursion]

53. I know the Disney story very well

I'll agree the law is badly written, but the requirement is that it is within a range the Department of Labor considers prevailing for the region.

What Disney did was that they stopped employing IT people internally altogether, and hired a contracting company to provide the IT staff. This is something companies do all the time. It also means no job was legally "replaced"; Disney has fewer jobs now and the contracting company has more (I agree: now, write a law that manages to actually make that illegal). This contracting company is considered "H-1B dependent" legally, because more than IIRC 22% of its employees are H-1Bs, so it must offer any position to any qualified US citizen. (Department of Labor is who checks that; no idea if they checked in this case, but companies do get caught and lose their visas.) This staffing company brought over a bunch of H-1Bs from India at wages that the Labor Department considered within the prevailing range for Florida. (Disney was paying well above that range, which is why this ended up saving Disney money.) When the visa applicants were being adjudicated, the Department of State checked their employment contracts (the falsification of these is the most common form of H-1B fraud) and verified that the compensation met the Department of Labor's "prevailing wage" requirements (in addition to the normal checks like having ties to India to prevent absconding). On arrival, this visa was validated by ICE in addition to whatever other security screens they do (ICE is completely opaque to me; I at least know something about State and Labor).

So, in your opinion, what step here was the regulatory failure?

[joshcryer]

55. I hate to get in to the H-1B arguments.

Because I believe H-1B's should be allowed to immigrate here. The problem for so many is when they come here, get experience and education, and then leave. But they only leave because of stringent immigration policy. They should be allowed to stay and build a life here.

Of course, if they stayed, they'd "lower wages" even more, so really, the wage issue is a right wing issue at its core. People want their cake and want to eat it too.

[Recursion]

56. The subject brings a lot more heat than light

But conversion isn't as uncommon as people seem to think; I think it's up to about 20% now converting to LPR status.

People want their cake and want to eat it too.

Boy, don't they?

[joshcryer]

57. The sad part?

H1-B employment is tied directly to education. I believe Brookings had an article on it but I can't find it.

If you're against H1-B's you shouldn't be all "fuck visa's!" You should be "education funding, NOW!"

I hate the anti-immigration sentiment that this topic conjures. And it's clear that it's a topic that Trump thinks he can gain grounds on, even if it's almost completely rhetorical (the actual numbers are not that bad).

[CreekDog]

59. the subject brings a lot more hate than light

although to be fair, most DUers are horrified by anti immigrant sentiment here or elsewhere.

[brooklynite]

18. No you're not...

...if your opposition is based on resource capacity and economic impact, rather than cultural nativism.

More people means more labor competing for jobs; if you believe in infinite free immigration, are you prepared for the risk that salaries get bid down?

[One_Life_To_Give]

24. Only the Sith deal in absolutes

There are so many shades of Gray in the whole area of Immigration. The Pilgrims had prior approval from the King of England for their original colony plans. Since those were changed they filed a request to have the change allowed which the king did grant. Granted nobody consulted the residents of Mass on this, but there were documented procedures followed. IIRC Many more people came with letters of Recommendation etc. which were presented to Colony officials upon arrival. In subsequent centuries many an immigrant was quarantined on places like Islands off New York and Boston before being processed thru Immigration. Many with health conditions were sent back home.

What should we be doing on the southern boarder today? Neither excluding everyone nor turning a blind eye to everyone. Nobody likes the thought of an Ellis Island being setup at Nogales or other border crossing station. But we really should do some basic health checks and document everyone who does come here. And that probably means there will be a line at times and maybe some people will have to wait a bit before they can get in.

[LWolf]

25. I'm an American citizen of European ancestry,

and I'm not opposed to immigration, thanks.

I'm not sure what prompted this; I could point out a whole bunch of things I see on DU these days that strikes me as hypocritical, and immigration didn't even make that list.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

28. I don't think we should have unlimited immigration.

But I also think there's a WHOLE lot of land that should be handed back to the original Native Americans, even if it means eminent domaining various folks and paying them market value for their current properties. Starting with the Black Hills.

[Syzygy321]

30. No one is against

immigration. No one says that people of the world should freeze where they are and put not one toe across US borders, ever.

That would be one extreme. The other extreme: let's offer free one-way airfare to Vegas to all 7 billion people of the world, with a US passport waiting on arrival - because whoever wants to come should be free to come, immediately.

Everyone who isn't insane wants something in between.

[CajunBlazer]

32. How our ancestors came to this country is irrelevant

My ancestors arrived on the North American continent before there were any laws governing immigration and were kicked out of Nova Scotia before the US became a country. The vast majority of them were resettled in the territories that would ultimately make up this country long before they came under US control. But how I came to be born here is irreverent to the current immigration discussion.

Every generation of Americans has to decide what rules are to govern immigration for the time and circumstances in which they live. In some periods sticker immigration policies may be best for the country, in others allowing more immigration may be desirable.

I used to be against the illegal immigrates from South of our borders because they entered the country illegally. However, I have come to understand those people are here in their current state because of our failure as a country to set up legal immigration policies that actually work.

In recent years we have put a premium on allowing in the best and the brightest from other countries, those who would most contribute to our country's economic well being. We also prioritized the entry of political refuges. What we have paid little or no attention to are those potential immigrates who are willing and able to do the jobs that most Americans don't want fill.

The vast majority of the 11 million illegal immigrates who are old enough to work are employed and somehow earning a living or they would not be here. I'm sure they would rather be unemployed in their native countries than be unemployed here.

For many years our immigration laws have virtually ignored a fundamental economic principal - unemployed people will flow to where jobs they can do are available. You can't condemn people for attempting to better themselves and provide for their families. Their crime is little worst than stealing food for one's family before allowing them to starve. However, we can blame our politicians for failing to set up workable work visa system to fill the jobs which were going unfilled and we can also blame ourselves for electing them. I also have a problem with companies which employ illegal workers instead of willing Americans because they can exploit their illegal status by paying much lower wages than they would have to pay otherwise.

Regardless of who is to blame, there are at least 11 million illegal immigrate in this country and regardless what lies are being told by Republican clowns running for President, there is no way we are going to manage to deport all of these people, many of which have children who are American citizens. Just catching and deporting the very small percentage of that populations who are bad actors will be difficult enough.

Therefore, we are going have to find some way of legalizing the presence of most of these people, whether or not that includes a pathway to citizenship or not. We are also going to have to find a way to avoid having to deal with an near identical situation every 20 or 3o years. That path forward has to include to a work visa plan to fill otherwise unfillable jobs at the bottom of our economic ladder.

The bottom line is we need to quit ducking this problem and solve it with responsible legislation and the sooner the better. That means we have to elect people who will solve these problems in a pragmatic manner instead of filling the airways with BS rhetoric.

[NCjack]

33. If your grandparents, parents, or yourself are immigrants from Cuba, and

you are opposed to immigration, you are a huge asshat.

[MFrohike]

34. No, it's a bit more broad

If you're an American, period, your ancestors immigrated here. Unless, of course, one can show proof that human beings originated in this hemisphere and not in Africa.

[Throd]

37. I am opposed to illegal immigration.

[RebelOne]

40. Ditto. I agree. n/t

[PoliticAverse]

39. If your ancestors came to the US when there was an "open border" are you a hypocrite

if you oppose "open borders"?

Do you favor an "open border" for the US?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

41. My Grandfather came over from Ireland because the British had a price on his head.

Well, probably not. But my dad said all the old timers "had a price on me head"

[Syzygy321]

45. LOL, thread win

[iandhr]

43. Agreed.

But the rhetoric used against latino immigrants isn't new.

Similar stuff was said about the Irish, Italians, Jews etc.

[Texasgal]

44. I am totally in agreement with Legal

Immigration. Illegal is not good and works against us.

I have a friend from India that is a trained specialty RN. She has waited YEARS to become legal and has so much to offer all of us. Why she should have to wait years and become in fear of being deported is ridiculous to me. Her work visa is getting ready to run out. She is in fear!

Make the process easier, and make it easier to become a citizen. Illegals are often exploited and left to fend for themselves. The process is daunting and it needs to be changed. Illegals have a hard existence here. It's horrible and not easy.

[CreekDog]

46. Sounds pretty self serving if your ancestors came before such restrictions

It is hypocritical.

You might bristle at the term, but that's just the way it is.

[freshwest]

49. Mine arrived about 1590. The 'natives' failed to grasp our utter awesomeness.

We didn't care. In time, Europeans scolded them for not 'speaking English.'

And Africans were not volunteers. I wonder if the anti-immigrant people remember that. As long as people work for nothing, it's all cool, huh.

Opinions on immigration are irrelevant. It's going to happen as predicted in the 1970s with climate change models.

Masses of people will travel to escape famine, warfare and lack of water. Borders will not stop them. This is world wide and it's not going to end.

Anti-immigrant people are attempting to hold a moment in time and keep it there, immovable. Not going to work. Get ready.

[DesertFlower]

52. my grandmother was born here in 1895. her parents

came over from germany on the boat around 1890. i think that's where they met.

i have no problem with immigration. actually i don't have much of a problem with illegal immigration. if i lived in mexico under some of the conditions these people live i would try to cross the border too.

[joshcryer]

58. I'm all for relaxing immigration requirements.

Some of the quotas in place are ridiculous. We're at a 1:1 population replacement ratio. This has proven to be detrimental to a lot of countries. We need to accept that White Euro-Decedents aren't the end all of the American spectrum and need to relax immigration policy to allow anyone of all stripes to come here.

[zabet]

60. Nope.

Native American and European ancestry.....along with a dash of a couple of others.

[Waiting For Everyman]

61. Heavy immigration favors the 1%, not the rest of us.

I don't think they need any more breaks, and the 99% don't need any more 8-balls to be behind.

It's irresponsible to allow large numbers of people to flood in when we're not taking care of the people we already have -- who ARE here legally.

Call that any name you want.

[hunter]

62. All those damned white Protestants ruined this nation...