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Sat Aug 15, 2015, 01:12 PM

pilot study on nicotine residues in houses of electronic cigarette users, tobacco smokers, and non s

A pilot study on nicotine residues in houses of electronic cigarette users, tobacco smokers, and non-users of nicotine-containing products

I noticed this 2015 pilot study published in the, June 2015 International Journal & I thought the results would be of interest to some people.

""Highlights
•There are controversies whether e-cigarettes should be allowed in public spaces.
•This study showed that thirdhand exposure to nicotine from e-cigarette is low.
•Using e-cigarettes reduces thirdhand exposure to nicotine compared to smoking.
•Nicotine is a common environmental contaminant found on indoor surfaces.

Background

Nicotine deposited on the surfaces has been shown to react with airborne chemicals leading to formation of carcinogens and contributing to thirdhand exposure. While prior studies revealed nicotine residues in tobacco smokers’ homes, none have examined the nicotine residue in electronic cigarette (e-cigarette) users’ homes.

Methods

We measured nicotine on the surfaces in households of 8 e-cigarette users, 6 cigarette smokers, and 8 non-users of nicotine-containing products in Western New York, USA. Three surface wipe samples were taken from the floor, wall and window. Nicotine was extracted from the wipes and analyzed using gas chromatography.

Results

Half of the e-cigarette users’ homes had detectable levels of nicotine on surfaces whereas nicotine was found in all of the tobacco cigarette smokers’ homes. Trace amounts of nicotine were also detected in half of the homes of non-users of nicotine-containing products. Nicotine levels in e-cigarette users homes was significantly lower than that found in cigarette smokers homes (average concentration 7.7 ± 17.2 vs. 1303 ± 2676 μg/m2; p < 0.05). There was no significant difference in the amount of nicotine in homes of e-cigarette users and non-users (p > 0.05).

Conclusions

Nicotine is a common contaminant found on indoor surfaces. Using e-cigarettes indoors leads to significantly less thirdhand exposure to nicotine compared to smoking tobacco cigarettes.

subscription service required for access to entire research study
http://www.ijdp.org/article/S0955-3959(15)00070-5/fulltext


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Reply pilot study on nicotine residues in houses of electronic cigarette users, tobacco smokers, and non s (Original post)
Sunlei Aug 2015 OP
Oilwellian Aug 2015 #1
Skeeter Barnes Aug 2015 #5
Oilwellian Aug 2015 #16
Newest Reality Aug 2015 #27
Aerows Aug 2015 #80
Aerows Aug 2015 #62
OregonBlue Aug 2015 #76
Warpy Aug 2015 #55
beevul Aug 2015 #2
Skeeter Barnes Aug 2015 #4
Drifter Aug 2015 #9
NBachers Aug 2015 #127
Skeeter Barnes Aug 2015 #3
Eleanors38 Aug 2015 #7
ladyVet Aug 2015 #104
meow2u3 Aug 2015 #129
Eleanors38 Aug 2015 #130
meow2u3 Aug 2015 #31
Skeeter Barnes Aug 2015 #36
Aerows Aug 2015 #63
Skeeter Barnes Aug 2015 #64
meow2u3 Aug 2015 #69
Skeeter Barnes Aug 2015 #107
meow2u3 Aug 2015 #113
Aerows Aug 2015 #79
Skeeter Barnes Aug 2015 #106
Aerows Aug 2015 #114
tblue37 Aug 2015 #89
Skeeter Barnes Aug 2015 #110
Eleanors38 Aug 2015 #70
Liberal Veteran Aug 2015 #75
Mariana Aug 2015 #78
Aerows Aug 2015 #81
tblue37 Aug 2015 #91
tblue37 Aug 2015 #94
tblue37 Aug 2015 #94
Aerows Aug 2015 #6
Skeeter Barnes Aug 2015 #38
tblue37 Aug 2015 #92
tblue37 Aug 2015 #8
bettyellen Aug 2015 #11
tblue37 Aug 2015 #12
bettyellen Aug 2015 #13
tblue37 Aug 2015 #88
bettyellen Aug 2015 #98
Starry Messenger Aug 2015 #86
tblue37 Aug 2015 #96
Starry Messenger Aug 2015 #100
tblue37 Aug 2015 #101
BumRushDaShow Aug 2015 #10
Cal Carpenter Aug 2015 #14
Logical Aug 2015 #15
U4ikLefty Aug 2015 #17
awoke_in_2003 Aug 2015 #19
meow2u3 Aug 2015 #68
Aerows Aug 2015 #82
awoke_in_2003 Aug 2015 #112
Aerows Aug 2015 #117
awoke_in_2003 Aug 2015 #18
herding cats Aug 2015 #20
tblue37 Aug 2015 #97
Juicy_Bellows Aug 2015 #21
Mariana Aug 2015 #23
Juicy_Bellows Aug 2015 #34
Eleanors38 Aug 2015 #71
Juicy_Bellows Aug 2015 #74
Eleanors38 Aug 2015 #99
meow2u3 Aug 2015 #26
LeftyMom Aug 2015 #32
Juicy_Bellows Aug 2015 #35
LeftyMom Aug 2015 #44
Juicy_Bellows Aug 2015 #45
meow2u3 Aug 2015 #67
CBGLuthier Aug 2015 #22
Mariana Aug 2015 #24
CBGLuthier Aug 2015 #25
beevul Aug 2015 #28
Mariana Aug 2015 #40
laundry_queen Aug 2015 #56
Mariana Aug 2015 #58
laundry_queen Aug 2015 #66
Newest Reality Aug 2015 #30
Mariana Aug 2015 #42
Skeeter Barnes Aug 2015 #43
Mariana Aug 2015 #47
Newest Reality Aug 2015 #49
Mariana Aug 2015 #37
Politicalboi Aug 2015 #53
Liberal Veteran Aug 2015 #61
Oilwellian Aug 2015 #73
meow2u3 Aug 2015 #29
LeftyMom Aug 2015 #33
beevul Aug 2015 #39
Mariana Aug 2015 #41
LeftyMom Aug 2015 #46
beevul Aug 2015 #50
Newest Reality Aug 2015 #51
Eleanors38 Aug 2015 #72
meow2u3 Aug 2015 #48
Mariana Aug 2015 #52
meow2u3 Aug 2015 #54
Liberal Veteran Aug 2015 #59
Mariana Aug 2015 #60
meow2u3 Aug 2015 #65
MrMickeysMom Aug 2015 #85
meow2u3 Aug 2015 #90
MrMickeysMom Aug 2015 #102
Live and Learn Aug 2015 #57
MrMickeysMom Aug 2015 #77
Aerows Aug 2015 #83
MrMickeysMom Aug 2015 #84
beevul Aug 2015 #93
MrMickeysMom Aug 2015 #103
U4ikLefty Aug 2015 #108
MrMickeysMom Aug 2015 #115
U4ikLefty Aug 2015 #126
Liberal Veteran Aug 2015 #111
MrMickeysMom Aug 2015 #116
Liberal Veteran Aug 2015 #118
MrMickeysMom Aug 2015 #119
Liberal Veteran Aug 2015 #120
MrMickeysMom Aug 2015 #124
beevul Aug 2015 #125
Mariana Aug 2015 #87
Oilwellian Aug 2015 #105
MrMickeysMom Aug 2015 #122
Skeeter Barnes Aug 2015 #109
bhikkhu Aug 2015 #121
Marrah_G Aug 2015 #123
get the red out Aug 2015 #128

Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 02:03 PM

1. This is very good news...they're safe in public

Ecigs are the best invention in my lifetime. European scientists have been studying ecigs for ten years. They agree it will save millions of lives in this century. I will be celebrating on Monday for being cigarette free for two years.

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Response to Oilwellian (Reply #1)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 02:27 PM

5. 2 years! You are doing great. Congrats.

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Response to Skeeter Barnes (Reply #5)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:40 PM

16. Thank you

If not for ecigs, I doubt I would have succeeded.

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Response to Oilwellian (Reply #16)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 11:30 AM

27. Same Here!

I started out by not "telling the devil what I am doing" so to speak. So, I started vaping but did not even attempt to quit smoking at first.

So, over time I was down to three cigarettes a day, (a forty-year habit, BTW) with one in the morning, one in the afternoon and one at night.

Well, after a while, the cigarettes started to taste really bad and I was able to smell the stink lingering, too. With the nice taste and smell of the various vaping flavors, my Pavlovian response was kicking in and the positive rewards moved me away from cigarettes more and more. My taste and sense of smell improved and my teeth became whiter. Also, I felt less winded and more energetic.

So, after over six-months I am now over the associated triggers that made me want to light up. I have even tried a cigarette now and then with friends and experience no desire to have another one or return to the habit.

After a while, I may start to lower my nicotine level in the vaping juice and see about moving on, but for now, I am fine with this and thankful I did it. It was very easy this way.

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Response to Newest Reality (Reply #27)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 12:05 AM

80. The first time I went to the grocery store

 

after I started vaping and had not had a cigarette, I nearly fainted at the REEK of smoke that came off of smokers. I wondered "Have I smelled that bad for that long? Why didn't anyone tell me!"

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Response to Oilwellian (Reply #16)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 05:33 PM

62. Me either

 

and I had tried many times. If standing on my head while singing the Star Spangled Banner was reported to work, I would have tried it.

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Response to Oilwellian (Reply #16)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 09:32 PM

76. Same here. 4 1/2 years cigarette free thanks to evaping.

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Response to Oilwellian (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 04:04 PM

55. I know quite a few people who have managed to taper down

and now use nicotine free juice.

Even if this weren't the case, anything is better than inhaling concentrated smoke into your lungs and then expelling it for everybody else to breathe in.

I agree that e cigs are a great improvement over the real thing. I hope more people are able to make the switch.

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 02:15 PM

2. I think this confirms what many of us already knew.

 

I can hardly wait to see what the [strike]puritans[/strike]...ahem... naysayers have to say.







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Response to beevul (Reply #2)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 02:20 PM

4. 2 years, 7 months is awesome. Congrats.

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Response to beevul (Reply #2)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 02:47 PM

9. Me too!!!

I have been smoke free for 6 months thanks to vaping.
I have reduced my nicotine level to 3mg, and I am even vaping less now.

I don't even think about smoking anymore.

Cheers
Drifter

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Response to beevul (Reply #2)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 12:20 AM

127. Pfffft! That's just like, anecdotal, man.

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 02:16 PM

3. 7.5 months smoke free thanks to vaping. Already down to between 6mg and 3mg nicotine juice.

I smoked for 26 years despite trying to quit numerous times. Tried Chantix, Wellbutrin, patches, gum, even hypnosis and none of that worked.

On Jan 28 of this year, I started vaping. On Jan 29, I smoked my last cigarette.

Not only am I healthier and feeling better, I save a lot of money, too! I am convinced that I was mainly addicted to the other chemicals they put in the cigarettes more than the nicotine considering how fast I dropped my nic levels.

rant not directed at the OP:

Vapers know who is attacking them. It is Democrats. If they are successful in banning it or making it prohibitively expensive, it could cost the party dearly on election days. Take away something that people love, something that saves them money and makes their life better and they will rightfully hate you for it. All I have ever voted for is Democrats but I will just stop voting at all if they ruin vaping for the millions of us that like it and need it.



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Response to Skeeter Barnes (Reply #3)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 02:34 PM

7. There is a significant streak of prohibitionism within modern liberal thought.

 

With the future of RW politics facing a divide between authoritarian, moralistic and corporate statism on the one hand, and a libertarian, less moralistic corporate statism on the other, Democrats and liberals would be wise to adapt less reliance on central social regulation in the name of "public health," and to take advantage of -- voila! -- a more liberal approach. It really is the future.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #7)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:27 PM

104. I am a liberal who has no problem with vaping.

My son switched last year, and I'm so grateful I can't tell you. I had a horrible case of bronchitis several years ago, and ever since any hint of cigarette smoke causes me to wheeze and have horrible migraines. To the point of passing out migraines.

That doesn't happen at home any more, though I'm still at risk when around stores and other businesses.

My sister wants to switch (as does her boyfriend), because she has issues following an emergency tracheotomy that scarred her internally. She has cut down on cigarettes, but still wants to start vaping. She has trouble saving up enough to get started, so I'm going to see if I can scrounge up enough money so my son can get her the stuff.

Congratulations to everyone who is vaping now. Spread the word!

And yes, you really did reek that bad, for all those years.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #7)

Sat Aug 22, 2015, 12:52 PM

129. Public health authorities and agencies seem to use double standards against vapor products

Condoms Vs. E-Cigs and The Public Health Double Standard

Imagine it’s 1987. The HIV epidemic is in full swing; tens of thousands of adult men and woman’s immune systems are starting to wear down. Public health is in a major crisis. They know that unprotected sex is risky with multiple partners, after all this is something that doesn’t just affect one person it affects those you have sex with, and this has facilitated a nearly meteoric rise of dying HIV patients. They also know that people being people will not just stop having sex. Not only that but human beings for the most part will not have sex with only one partner during their lifetime. They need something, anything that can help slow down this epidemic. They need a stopgap of sorts. If sex is legal and humans won’t stop having sex maybe they’ll be smarter about the sex they’ll have. Enter into the equation condoms.

Condoms aren’t entirely safe. They can break, rip, tear and they do not protect you 100%. However, they protect you better than no protection at all. Imagine now if you will that there is a public health debate (actually this existed at the time). One of the most well-known and well-respected HIV researchers is at the table. He brings up condom use and HIV. He then proceeds to say this, “We know condoms are safer than unprotected sex, but it’s not 100% safe. Wearing a condom is like jumping from a five-story building instead of a 50-foot building. Sure it’s safer but it still has risks, that is why I can not support promoting condom use for the public having sex”. Imagine if the World Health Organization released a statement saying, “Condoms have not gone through clinical trials in regards to HIV, therefore condom use is just as unsafe as sex without condoms”. Imagine if the answer to the problem of HIV was abstinence and waiting. Of course, in theory, it’s the best stance to protect yourself 100%, but in reality it doesn’t work. It’s been proven over and over again.

Thankfully, most health officials didn’t take on that stance during the HIV epidemic. They understood you had to use every tool in the toolbox to save as many human lives as possible. They understood that sex is going to happen. Sadly though there seems to be a double standard when it comes to cigarette smoking. We know that humans like to smoke. They’ve smoked different substances for hundreds of thousands of years. From cave man to billionaire, smoking has been there. Like sex with multiple partners, smoking seems to be a risk we as humans enjoy taking. For health officials, cigarette smoking is an even bigger epidemic than HIV. However, unlike with HIV many health officials around the world refuse to use every tool in the toolbox when it comes to smoking.

Case in point, e-cigs. If you ask most public health officials particularly here in the USA you’ll the same response. E-cigs are undoubtedly safer than cigarettes, they’ll usually admit that much. However, they will say we just don’t have enough information on them and they have a nagging suspicion they aren’t as safe as they appear. For public health officials the mantra ‘quit or die’ is very real. Much like the mantra of many advocates against sex education or condom distribution it’s, ‘have sex with more than one partner and risk death’. With opposition to condom use and birth control these people tend to be driven by a moral issue with sex. This type of thinking usual irks and annoys public health officials. Scientist and public health officials say abstinence only advocates can’t see the forest for the trees on this issue. People have and always will engage in risky sex.

That’s why it’s so shocking that with e-cigs the issue public health has a problem with most seems to be a moral one. These public health officials outright say they do not want to renormalize smoking. They do not want to create a new generation of smokers using e-cigs. Think about this, they’re saying they it has nothing to do with e-cigs being safe or unsafe. They simply do not want someone simply using a product for the sake of enjoyment. Sounds a little familiar to those who simply oppose sex doesn’t it?


https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/condoms-vs-e-cigs-public-healths-double-standard-jonathan-burger?trk=hp-feed-article-title-publish

This guy just said what I've been trying in vain to explain for months: why is condom use OK among liberals to prevent the spread of STD's and HIV, but it's not OK for smokers to switch to vapor products? Tobacco control puritans are treating vapers like religious absolutist treat people who have sex for fun.

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #129)

Sat Aug 22, 2015, 01:21 PM

130. As it is with most prohibitions.

 

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Response to Skeeter Barnes (Reply #3)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 11:46 AM

31. A year and 9 months smoke-free for me, thanks to vaping

I also tried numerous times prior to discovering vapor products. Tried Wellbutrin, gum, and even cold turkey, all to no avail.

Not only am I healthier and feeling better, I save a lot of money, too! I am convinced that I was mainly addicted to the other chemicals they put in the cigarettes more than the nicotine considering how fast I dropped my nic levels.


I too dropped my nicotine level from 24mg back in November, 2013, to my current level of 6mg. You're right in that it's not just nicotine that hooks a smoker, but rather a cocktail of chemicals from the additives that "freebase" the nicotine in tobacco for the express purpose of making smoking highly addictive. The same cannot be said for nicotine-infused e-liquid; nicotine is the only habit-forming chemical in the concoction affectionately called "juice."

I'm getting sick too of Democrats betraying their constituents by stubbornly pushing to punish vapers for quitting smoking by means other than Big Pharma approved methods, by means of punitive taxation to make vapor products cost-prohibitive, forcing vapers to buy from Big Tobacco companies, and/or outright de facto prohibition.

My question to Democrats is, if one of your loved ones were heavyset and lost a ton of weight, would you punish them for not losing weight "the right way?" Or if someone was out of shape and is now fit, would you impose an outrageously high sin tax on that person for not working out at the gym, which costs $100/month in dues?

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #31)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 01:51 PM

36. I agree, of all the things in this world to go after, it had to be vaping.

And I tried all the "acceptable" ways to stop. It just doesn't work for a lot of us. They want to tax it so high that it becomes prohibitively expensive and they are desperate to take our flavors we love away from us.

When they are done destroying the industry, Big Tobacco will move in and their awful products will be the only thing left. And it will be just as expensive as smoking and taste like shit! I resent it and will never forgive the party for it if they are successful.

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Response to Skeeter Barnes (Reply #36)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 05:47 PM

63. It's money.

 

Big Tobacco requires them to prohibit vaping in public spaces that prohibit smoking so that it doesn't seem as though cigarettes are "unfairly" targeted (which they are because they stink and are unhealthy for everyone around a smoker). Vaping is unobtrusive. You can vape and 5 or 6 seconds later, no one is the wiser that you got your "fix".

In keeping with that, big tobacco is fiercely lobbying for vaping to be banned or sharply curbed and stringently taxed.

I can promise you one thing - if I get a whiff of the idea that e-liquids will be banned, I'll buy this and blend my own flavored liquid. 3000 ml diluted will last a damn long time!

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Response to Aerows (Reply #63)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 06:09 PM

64. Oh yeah, I talk to people online who are stockpiling liters of nic in their freezer.

They buy PG and VG by the gallon. I wish I was good at DIY so I could prepare because I think the prohibitionists and Big Tobacco are going to be successful. They really are going to take this away from us.

The only thing I've had luck with is "Highway" by Hangsen. About 12-15 drops in a 30ml bottle. It's pretty dern good, no ashy taste and satisfying. "Desert Ship" is pretty good too.

I can do without nic but I got to have the few flavors I enjoy like RY4.


http://www.bullcityvapor.com/highway-hs/


http://www.essentialdepot.com/category/4-GALLONS-PG-VG.html

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Response to Skeeter Barnes (Reply #64)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 07:57 PM

69. These guys have liters of nic on sale

MyFreedomSmokes have 100mg nic for $50.

https://www.myfreedomsmokes.com/nicotine-mixing-supplies/unflavored-nicotine/unflavored-nicotine-smoke-juice-e-liquid-liter-sale.html

They also have 200mg+, but you have to have a tax ID --proof of a business-- to buy those.

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #69)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:35 PM

107. I'll have to leave that to the pros. What little DIY I do is with nic base from

E Cig Express.

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Response to Skeeter Barnes (Reply #107)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:26 PM

113. I used to get unflavored nic base there, too

That is, when I DIY'd. I don't DIY anymore because my roomie's allergic to almost anything perfumey, and that includes e-juice.

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Response to Skeeter Barnes (Reply #64)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 12:02 AM

79. My absolute favorite

 

is 555 from here

It tastes PERFECT. I've tried all sorts of weird blends, but I'm pretty staid - I want tobacco flavor, and that particular one does it for me. I LOVE it.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #79)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:33 PM

106. I just got a couple bottles from them in the mail today. GEJ makes some amazing juice!

I got 30ml Wild Turkey and 15ml Lizard Tail. Is the 555 an NET? I haven't tried it yet but I will with your recommendation.

Have you tried Patriot, Natural Perique or Wild Turkey?

Got another Derringer clone and 120ml of St. James Parish from River Bottom Fog Sauce in the mail today, too. I'm kind of a Perique lover.

Give Highway a try!

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Response to Skeeter Barnes (Reply #106)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:38 PM

114. I've tried Patriot and have a bottle of Wild Turkey

 

I like Wild Turkey better than the Apple cured flavor, and the Patriot is good ... but try 555 and I swear, you will never go back. It's PERFECT if you like an e-cig to taste like a cigarette. It tastes just like a mix between a Marlboro Red and a Camel filterless with the good properties of both without the bad properties of either.

I HIGHLY recommend it. Wild Turkey, though, is pretty good, but 555 is a tad sweeter while Patriot has a much more cinnamon-ish tone.

On YOUR recommendation, I'm going to try the Natural Perique . Just ordered it.

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Response to Skeeter Barnes (Reply #64)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 09:31 AM

89. Some of us nonsmokers are very much on your side and will squawk about

propaganda against vaping.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #89)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:59 PM

110. Thank you we need allies like you.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #63)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 08:07 PM

70. I think vaping is a good alternative, and shouldn't be restricted like cigs, but

 

aren't some of the vaping products companies owned by Big Tobacco?

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #70)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 09:26 PM

75. Yes, they are.

They are trying desperately to cash in on something that is eating into their bottom line.

Honestly though, most of the products that BT has put out are really bad and expensive compared to what you can get from the independent shops. They tend to focus on cig-alike type e-cigs that are use once and toss and it doesn't take long for folks to figure out that they are throwing money away on the products that BT puts out.

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Response to Liberal Veteran (Reply #75)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 10:40 PM

78. I have a hypothesis about why Big Tobacco

are putting out such incredibly bad e-cigs. This is my thinking:

What would BT do if they wanted people NOT to quit smoking with e-cigs? Why, they'd make really shitty e-cigs on purpose, advertise them heavily, and sell them everywhere that cigarettes are sold. Smokers who have heard about e-cigs and are thinking about trying it decide to give it a shot with a disposable, to see if they like it. They've seen the ads. They buy the crappy BT product at the same shop where they buy their cigarettes. They try it, and they hate it because the BT product really sucks. Most of them have no way of knowing there are much better products out there. So they give up on the idea of vaping altogether and just go on smoking.

Does this qualify me for tinfoil hat?

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Response to Mariana (Reply #78)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 12:11 AM

81. No, you don't

 

the ones in gas stations suck, are expensive and pretty much taste like cow dung. I tried one once, and it is NOTHING compared to a decent ecig bought on-line, and an e-cig bought on-line is nothing compared to even a $20 vape set.

They do it intentionally to turn people off of them. Hell, if that had been my first exposure, I wouldn't have touched them with a ten foot pole. Luckily, I knew the difference and bought it as a stop-gap and it was so atrocious doing without was better.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #78)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 09:38 AM

91. I think you are absolutely right. I encourage my friends who smoke to switch to e-cigs, but

I warn them about that--and I send them copies of posts like this and links to threads on DU that offer advice, sources for good products, and testimonials about how people have benefited from switching.

I am something of a crusader about vaping, even though I have never been a smoker, because I don't want people I care about to have their health (and budgets!) destroyed by real cigarettes.

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #31)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 09:58 AM

94. I believe that vaping also allows smokers to enjoy the comforting physical process

of smoking, which is a significant aspect of the habit. Being able to continue with the process without having to take in most of the most harmful and addictive substances, and even being able to gradually reduce the nicotine while continuing with the physical process, is probably one of the reasons why vaping so easily satisfies the smoker's need even when he/she is getting less and less nicotine.

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #31)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 09:58 AM

94. I believe that vaping also allows smokers to enjoy the comforting physical process

of smoking, which is a significant aspect of the habit. Being able to continue with the process without having to take in most of the most harmful and addictive substances, and even being able to gradually reduce the nicotine while continuing with the physical process, is probably one of the reasons why vaping so easily satisfies the smoker's need even when he/she is getting less and less nicotine.

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 02:28 PM

6. Over four months thanks to ecigarettes

 

I feel TREMENDOUSLY better. I wouldn't go back to regular cigarettes for any amount of money. Plus, I'm saving a ton of money.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #6)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 01:55 PM

38. Awesome. Vape On, Vaper!

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Response to Aerows (Reply #6)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 09:39 AM

92. Woo-hoo! Congratulations! nt

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 02:42 PM

8. E-cigs are life savers for a lot of longterm smokers.

BTW, though I have never smoked, I have two friends who, despite being longterm smokers, quit cold turkey with the help of this book:

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=quit+smoking+allen+carr&tag=googhydr-20&index=stripbooks&hvadid=91005982087&hvpos=1t2&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2298301094355972588&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=t&ref=pd_sl_8h4s16o845_b

Frankly, I can't see WHY this book did the trick. It doesn't seem that impressive to me. But both of my friends say it just completely changed the way they thought about smoking, and both say they don't even think about cigs any more. No cravings at all.

I mention this only because I know how desperately some smokers want to quit, so if anyone else could be helped by this book, then they should be given the info to allow them to check it out.

If anyone does and it proves helpful to them, too, please let me know. I have a few other well loved smokers in my circle that I am thinking of buying the book for.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #8)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 02:53 PM

11. It did work for me once too! I think there is something almost hypnotic about

 

The repetitiveness in it. Agree it's an odd phenomenon.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #11)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 03:18 PM

12. But not longterm? nt

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #12)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 04:09 PM

13. For many years. Thinking of rereading now.

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #13)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 09:30 AM

88. One of my friends is 2 years cig free now, the other just over one year.

What intrigues me is their lack of cravings. They think of cigs only when I ask, or when someone is smoking around them--but even then, no desire to smoke. Both have tried unsuccessfully to quit before, but this time it worked. The one who quit 2 years ago is 38; the other 25. The 38-year-old is a lawyer and under a lot of stress at work and at home, but still no desire to smoke. The other is a student who returned to college after screwing up the first time he tried college (right out of high school) and has been making straight A's for the 3 years since returning, despite taking on two difficult majors (neuroscience and math) after having been a math-phobic English major the first time. IOW, he is also working very hard and under intense (self-imposed) pressure. In both cases, I would expect the pressure to push them toward relapse into dependency, yet neither fees any need to smoke.

My ex (who is now 72) has quit smoking three times, for years at a time, but he never stopped craving cigs, and he always went back to smoking eventually. Smoking is soooo hard for most people to give up, and most who do give it up seem to continue to crave it and to think about it a lot, even if they don't relapse. Yet after reading that book, both my friends quit cold turkey and the break in their addiction seems to be real--and maybe permanent.

The older friend found the book first, so maybe his success subconsciously influenced our younger friend's conviction that he could also quit after reading the book. IOW, maybe a group dynamic is involved in at least one case.

Whatever the relevant factor, though, I applaud anything that gets a dangerous monkey off people's backs. That's why I am delighted to read DU posts by longterm smokers who have been able to use e-cigs to drastically reduce the amount of the most dangerous substances they are taking in as they smoke, and also by doing so eventually working their way free of the addiction itself.

I have always believed that the physical process of smoking is a major part if the addiction, an important part of what the smoker misses. E-cigs allow the smoker to continue with the comforting, familiar parts of the physical activity while gradually freeing themselves from the aspects that are most dangerous to their health and most threatening to others.

Good luck to all of you as you vape your way to freedom and better health!

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #88)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 10:41 AM

98. Interesting! I had no cravings for years too. But I seem to relapse in extreme stress. Regarding

 

the physical process being major, one time I did did hypnosis to quit, and it worked right away. But I was constantly looking through my purse for cigarettes- and not knowing it. Others thought it was hilarious.
I think you might just have to be in the "right frame of mind" for it. At least I do. Thanks for the well wishes!

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #8)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:28 AM

86. I used the Carr method.

I quit in 2008, and haven't wanted one since. I also used cough drops to sub for the physical cravings. So far so good.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #86)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 10:00 AM

96. Was it as sudden and effective as it was for my friends? For them success was immediate. nt

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #96)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 01:56 PM

100. It was.

I was prepared for the physical w/d, so I just babied myself for a couple of weeks. But the mental part was really no problem. Never want to smoke again!

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #100)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 02:46 PM

101. Wonderful--especially since the effect seems to have been permanent for you. nt

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 02:49 PM

10. 4 years, 8 months

smoke-free & vaping, and it was thanks to DU where I first saw it mentioned and links were provided for more info on it.

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 04:10 PM

14. Wow

7.7 ± 17.2 vs. 1303 ± 2676

There was no significant difference in the amount of nicotine in homes of e-cigarette users and non-users


Thank you, science.

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 04:13 PM

15. I support ecigs where ever smoking is allowed. Nt

 

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 07:52 PM

17. A year and a half without the stinkies thanks to my Provari Mini.

I have my "emergency" smoke still sitting on my bookshelf. Every once in a while I recognize it & just smile...never even considered smoking it.

I love my PV (personal vape). It was the best money I've spent in a LONG time.

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #17)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 12:23 AM

19. I got on iTazte VTR a few weeks ago

 

and am loving it.

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Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #19)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 07:35 PM

68. I'm upgrading from an Itazte MVP 20W to a Kanger KBOX

My MVP 20W won't fire my >1 ohm atomizers, so I ordered the Kbox 40W so I can use them without running the risk of my mechanical mod overheating. I like the MVP, but am looking forward to the experience of the Kbox.

OT: I have an idea. A group for DU vapers.

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #68)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 12:13 AM

82. Great idea

 

What's the big deal with sub-Ohm vaping?

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Response to Aerows (Reply #82)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:16 PM

112. Glad you asked

 

because I wonder that, too.

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Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #112)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:43 PM

117. LOL so we are both in the dark.

 

Well hopefully some helpful vaper will come by and explain it to us.

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 12:20 AM

18. I have been vaping lately

 

I still don't do it inside. It makes some people uncomfortable, and I have been segregating myself for 30 years, so I'm used to it. Plus, going outside for a few minutes for a puff can be relaxing. Many times I have been hip deep in a problem with a simulator, gone outside and relax for a few minutes to get away from the problem, then have the solution pop into my head.

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 12:33 AM

20. All I can say is I'm very, very happy for everyone here that has stopped smoking!

Every single time one of these types of posts are made you see they myriad of testimonials from people who've turned a page in their lives. It always makes me happy to see the people who are successful in quitting smoking!

I'm a former smoker too. I know how difficult it is to put it behind you, and I am thrilled for anything which helps people move on from the habit. If it works for you, and I know many, many people it has worked for, then it makes me happy!

Keep on quitting people! In this one instance being a quitter is the right thing to do!

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Response to herding cats (Reply #20)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 10:01 AM

97. + a brazillion! nt

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 02:04 AM

21. Good. Can we put to bed the second hand vapor argument now?

I get it they're not likely entirely benign but I've seen people do that cough when they see one.

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Response to Juicy_Bellows (Reply #21)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 10:02 AM

23. Yes, they cough when they SEE one.

But if you stealth vape right next to those same people they never know it. It's worth taking the time to learn to vape in such a way that no one notices you're doing it.

My experience has been that very, very few people care if someone vapes around them. Most people know what an e-cig is nowadays, and they know there's no combustion and no smoke.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #23)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 01:46 PM

34. Very true.

Heck, most people that vape around me are vaping marijuana. It's crazy how some oils don't smell like weed at all.

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Response to Juicy_Bellows (Reply #34)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 08:11 PM

71. Good point. Vaping has improved the tech for marijuana use. Looking into it...

 

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #71)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 08:47 PM

74. Please let me know if I can be of any assistance.

Cheers!

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Response to Juicy_Bellows (Reply #74)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 01:02 PM

99. I am reminded of the Hope/Cosby "road" movie (Road to Morocco?) when

 

they were singing about and using the hookah. Pretty suggestive.

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Response to Juicy_Bellows (Reply #21)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 11:28 AM

26. Please, let's quit equating vapor with smoke

And let's stop ostracizing smokers--and now, vapers, by exposing them to legalized job and housing discrimination. Just because something is said to be bad for you doesn't mean we have to look down our noses at those who struggle with a smoking habit.

And let's quit calling smokers and vapers addicts. It's cruel, unkind, and gives the impression that they're doing something worthy of a prison sentence. In addition, it's unbefitting a liberal to be stubbornly opposed to tobacco harm reduction, which vaping is, and to punish vapers by smearing them as addicts and with punitive taxation.

Let's save the punitive taxation for billionaires and megacorporations, OK?

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #26)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 12:26 PM

32. Wait, hold on.

I'm willing to consider that vaping is a reasonable harm reduction strategy for cigarette smokers, the evidence does seem to be leaning in that direction. But nicotine addiction isn't up for debate. Hell, just read this thread.

And as far as housing goes? I used to manage rentals, and we had one unit where we had to do the following to destink it:

remove and discard the drapes, carpet and pad, seal all porous surfaces including the drywall and concrete slab, run an ozone machine for two weeks (normally used for fire remediation,) repaint everything, install new flooring and window treatments. That ran about $2500, not including labor or lost rent.

There was still a lingering odor! I think it had saturated the kitchen cabinets, but who knows?

Since we legally could not require a deposit nearly sufficient to undo the damage caused by one chain smoker we quit renting to smokers. Because math.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #32)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 01:48 PM

35. If that chain smoker was a chain vaper you wouldn't have had to do that.

Cigarette smoke is stinky, nasty business but vapor doesn't linger and adhere itself to everything. Smoking in restaurants and bars has been illegal here for years but if you go on the old dive bars you can smell the smoke like it was yesterday. Cheers!

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Response to Juicy_Bellows (Reply #35)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 02:40 PM

44. Yeah, but that poster was talking about cig smoking in the same breath.

There's a totally valid reason not to rent to cig smokers.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #44)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 02:43 PM

45. On that, we agree.

Cigarette smoke is nasty stuff! I've known two people that would smoke in their beds, another reason why they'd be a liability. Cheers!

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #32)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 07:29 PM

67. There is more often than not a pleasant odor from e-cig vapor

That's because the flavorings also have realistic aromas. For instance, when I'm vaping coffee, it smells as if I just got through brewing a pot.

I will concede that some flavors leave an undesirable odor. For instance, bacon. I tried a hit of bacon juice and it not only tasted awful, it smells like rancid farts. But generally, most fruity flavors leave a pleasant aroma that soon dissipates.

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 02:16 AM

22. I was just reading about the study that says sugary drinks are not bad for you

done by an organisation that Coca Cola gave 1.5 million dollars to.

Just curious who paid for this.

My problem with e gigs is you are still a slave to tobacco. Still a slave to the tobacco companies. I fear that everyone will see this as the path to quitting instead of quitting the use of tobacco.

I quit the hard way. After 25 years i stopped smoking altogether. Years ago and I will be damned if I will ever smoke one again.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #22)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 10:55 AM

24. Would you rather people continue to smoke

rather than have them quit smoking a different way than you did? You do know that most people who switch from smoking to e-cigs gradually reduce their nicotine level to zero, don't you? The people who have done that are no longer addicted to nicotine, by definition. Some people choose to keep vaping with no nicotine just they enjoy doing it. Do you have a problem with that?

Several years ago, someone on DU posted asking about e-cigs. Another poster told her cold turkey was the only way and she should just keep on smoking rather than try to quit by any other method. I thought that was and incredibly evil and hateful thing to say.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #24)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 11:15 AM

25. Yes, I have a problem with that. A slave is a slave.

An addict is an addict. You quit nothing when you still use by ecigs. You think that is evil and hateful well I think it is the truth.

How the fuck can you say that people who use ecigs are not addicted to nicotine by definition? That is just ignorant of reality

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #25)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 11:33 AM

28. "You quit nothing when you still use by ecigs."

 

"You quit nothing when you still use by ecigs."


Other than the 5000 plus chemicals that cigs contain and ecigs don't. A lot of nothing there, amirite?

An addict is an addict.


Spoken like someone that has not experienced the difference between true cig addiction, and the mild caffeine like addiction of ecigs.

Not even in the same ball park. Use of the word 'addiction' where vapes are concerned, and the accompanying 'cigarette addiction' connotation that goes along with it, is equivocation, plain and simple.

After reading your post, I'm left feeling like this:

"it would be great if he/she knew what he/she was talking about"

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Response to beevul (Reply #28)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 02:11 PM

40. Some people, including many ex-smokers

absolutely hate smokers and want them to suffer. This bunch are absolutely enraged that so many people stop smoking so effortlessly with e-cigs. People are quitting smoking and they're enjoying it! Anyone who truly hates smoking would be jumping up and down with glee that we have e-cigs. Most smokers can switch over very easily, immediately improve their health by not taking in all those awful by-products of tobacco combustion, and then gradually reduce their nicotine intake to zero. But not this bunch. They aren't happy unless smokers are miserable - even after they've quit.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #40)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 04:17 PM

56. That's interesting

It reminds me of the parent or grandparent that is absolutely disgusted when their children and/or grandchildren get a good job right out of high school or college. "I had to shovel shit for 6 years! Kids now have it so easy" Most normal people would be happy that their kids and grandkids had it easier, but there's always a few who think everyone should shovel shit because they had to.

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #56)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 04:58 PM

58. I can't think of any other possible reason

for the level of anger we see in some of the posts on these threads about e-cigs. "You haven't stopped taking nicotine! You're still addicted!" To quote Stephen Fry, well, so fucking what?

Weren't all the arguments against smoking about cancer and secondhand smoke? And those arguments were right on, smoking causes cancer and secondhand smoke is harmful to those exposed to it. Well, e-cigs eliminate those problems - there is no smoke, secondhand or otherwise, and nicotine does not cause cancer, it's other elements in the smoke that do that. So there's just no rational reason for people to be so furious about people using e-cigs to quit smoking.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #58)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 07:27 PM

66. Agreed. It's not rational. nt

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #25)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 11:38 AM

30. Hmmm

Interesting bias. I think thought is the most addictive thing there is, but I still think Life is, too. Then there is a long list of addictions that are not commonly thought of as such, but remain integral aspects of modern culture.

So, yeah, slavery is not a good state to be in, but sometimes we pick our masters.

Have you ever smoked? Do you have, or have you ever had addictions? How did you come to equate or conflate one thing with another so easily?

Just a rhetorical question, actually. Your point is noted.

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Response to Newest Reality (Reply #30)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 02:25 PM

42. Notice the rage in that post.

Also notice the absolute refusal to consider the people who use e-cigs to reduce their nicotine level to zero, thereby eliminating their addiction, or those who vape with no nicotine just because they enjoy vaping.

I suspect there's more going on there than ordinary, garden-variety concern over addiction.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #42)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 02:35 PM

43. If I had never smoked or vaped, I would be glad for all the vapers quitting cigs.

I don't understand where the hatred comes from. Maybe they work at cancer treatment centers and worry about job security.

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Response to Skeeter Barnes (Reply #43)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 02:57 PM

47. I smoked for many years, and then I vaped.

It's hurtful, really, that these people who claim they hate smoking aren't happy for me and all the other former smokers that finally found a way that worked for us to give up the real cigarettes. I tried everything else, but vaping is what worked, and it worked immediately - after I took my very first drag from an e-cig I never smoked again. Within a few weeks I felt immensely better physically. Taking up vaping is literally the best thing I've ever done in my life for myself and my family.

Elsewhere on this thread, someone posted about how much they've reduced nicotine intake since they starting vaping, and is being given grief about it instead of encouragement. What the fuck is wrong with these people?

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Response to Mariana (Reply #47)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 03:07 PM

49. Sorry to hear that...

Well, I commend you for making such an excellent choice and share the same benefits that you are having. Perhaps only we who have smoked and then turned to vaping really appreciate the difference and value of it? People can easily berate and conflate things they don't know enough about.

My closest friends have expressed pride in my ability to quit cigarettes and they support me on the choice. Others have no idea what the difference is. The difference is significant.

Good for you! Enjoy all those benefits.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #25)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 01:54 PM

37. You didn't even read my post.

People who do not consume any nicotine are not addicted to nicotine, by definition. Many e-cig users vape with fluid that contains zero nicotine. Therefore, those e-cig users are not addicted to nicotine, by definition.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #25)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 03:28 PM

53. Why can't smoking be enjoyable?

 

People drink. E-cigs have a lot of good flavors and if one chooses to smoke e-cigs for decades, why not.

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Response to Politicalboi (Reply #53)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 05:28 PM

61. Don't forget: Flavors = Enticing children.

This is okay and clearly marketed toward adults who like their alcoholic beverage to come in flavors:




This is evil and clearly designed to entice children to take up e-cigs:



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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #25)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 08:31 PM

73. Such drama

A slave? Really? Before you call others ignorant, perhaps you should know what you're talking about before revealing your own ignorance about vaping. I haven't had nicotine in my eliquid for over a year now. I enjoy the coffee flavor, and that is all I vape. Who am I a slave to? Juan Valdez?

My husband and I quit smoking together, and we are now saving thousands of dollars per year that used to go to the tobacco industry, and instead we're spending it in our local community. I'd say that's a big plus, wouldn't you? We buy our liquid from a small business owner who mixes it on site, so please, do tell, where the small amount we spend on vaping goes to the tobacco industry?

Anyone who is against a product that will save countless lives, worldwide, is one fucked up individual.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #22)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 11:34 AM

29. Most vapor products have nothing to do with tobacco companies

The vapor products, i.e., "juice", sold in mom-and-pop vapor outlets are made either on site or in a specialized lab for that purpose.

It's very ignorant and arrogant of you to assume vaper are tobacco company slaves and addicts. So you're barking up the wrong tree.

I can see how you're misinformed concerning e-cigs and vaporizers; nicotine prohibitionists in high places have been running a relentless campaign of slander and lies about vapers being as addicted as smokers. My question to you is: if vaping is so addictive, why was I able to reduce my nicotine level from 24mg, the level I started with when I first quit smoking and started vaping a year and 9 months ago, to my current level of 6mg? Doesn't a real addict increase their intake?

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #29)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 12:35 PM

33. Having to monitor and taper your dose is addiction.

Jesus, this discussion is nutty.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #33)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 01:56 PM

39. Its all the same is it?

 

Whats your experience with the difference between 'addiction' from nicotine from a vape, and cigarette addiction?

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #33)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 02:16 PM

41. Yes, and tapering off is a valid way to eliminate an addiction.

You don't think that's a good thing?

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Response to Mariana (Reply #41)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 02:46 PM

46. The poster is denying that it's addiction at all because they can taper.

Even opiate addicts can taper, ffs. I think there's a pretty good harm reduction case to be made, but proponents make some silly fucking arguments when they overstate their case and claim affirmatively that their new habit is benign.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #46)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 03:09 PM

50. Addiction from nicotine via vape is on par with caffeine addiction, not cigarette addiction.

 

Opiate addicts...pfft.

All 'nicotine addiction' is not created equal. Time to stop with the pretense that it is.



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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #46)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 03:11 PM

51. Ah, may I ask...

What is your skin in the game? In other words, have you been traumatized by addiction or are you struggling with it?

I take it you have looked into the matter of vaping versus cigarettes enough to not just have a superficial, reactive response to the subject?

The wording you are using suggests that your feelings on the subject have an emotional content since the idea of degrees of benefit are not being addressed. It seems a bit black and white.

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Response to Newest Reality (Reply #51)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 08:18 PM

72. Fair questions.

 

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #33)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 03:07 PM

48. There is a difference between addiction and dependency

I'd quit throwning around the term "addiction" when the real thing about nicotine is dependency. They're related, but not the same.

Addiction connotes overwhelming strong cravings for, and a compulsive need to, use a substance, despite the harm done to self or others; dependency is the phenomenon that the abrupt withdrawal of a substance causes illness or at least ill effects. So, you can be addicted to something without being dependent on it and vice versa. Someone who is addicted to something gets uncontrollable cravings (nicotine fits in smokers) and can't stop using even despite hurting self or others. Someone who's merely dependent can be weaned off the substance, but cannot stop abruptly without getting sick.

Vapers may be dependent on nicotine, as evidence by the ability to taper off the nicotine levels, but few if any are actually addicted, at least in the strict sense of the word.

Here's a link that describes the difference between dependence and addiction. They're talking about opioids, but it can easily apply to nicotine. http://www.naabt.org/addiction_physical-dependence.cfm

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #29)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 03:14 PM

52. 24 to 6! That's fantastic!

Please let us know when you get to zero, if that's what you're shooting for. Some people here will want to congratulate you, rather than give you a hard time about it.

Me, I'm addicted to caffeine. If I don't get 4 cups of coffee a day, or equivalent doses from other sources. I get a pretty damn awful headache, brain fog, and drowsiness. Funny how no one gives me a grief about my addiction, which is no more harmful to the body than yours - especially in the tiny doses you're taking now.

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 03:43 PM

54. There seems to be a visceral hatred of, and bigotry against, nicotine use

masquerading as a public health campaign. The real reason for attacking vapers is that we decided to quit smoking not through Big Pharma approved methods, but rather vaping looks like smoking and is vilified--and vapers are being attacked as if we were criminals instead of doing something to improve our health--in part because drug and tobacco companies are losing money, and so are pushing back by a relentless hate campaign against vapor products and those who use them; in part because tobacco control freaks have become "addicted" to telling people how to live and are lobbying the government into making their personal opinions the law of the land; and in part because governments have become addicted to gouging a despised minority instead of who they should really gouge--billionaires!

This knee-jerk hatred of vapers has to stop; it's unbefitting a liberal to attack people who've quit smoking by vaping instead. If only we can take a look and see through the anti-vaping propaganda, we can see that the nicotine prohibitionists are making no sense and the real reason they're pushing for punitive taxation is not health, but rather money and power. Nicotine prohibitionists are just as intractable and blinded by puritanical ideology that makes them immune to reason as were alcohol prohibitionists in the era leading to Prohibition. They're as fanatical as the "religious right" nutjobs who not only push abstinence-only sex eduction and seek to outlaw birth control and safer sex. They're as blind as the drug prohibitionists who pushed for severe criminal penalties for possessing small amounts of pot. Anti-drug hardliners won't even think of needle exchanges; they'd just rather see junkies die of HIV, Hep C, and other diseases that can be prevented. Vaping is a form of tobacco harm reduction which works with the same principle as safer sex, seatbelts and airbags in vehicles, and needle exchanges, for example. So why is it so many Democrats support sex, car, and drug harm reduction, but despise tobacco harm reduction? Be consistent.

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #54)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 04:59 PM

59. The only way to be 100% nicotine free is never to smoke tobacco or....

...eat potatoes, tomatoes, cauliflower, black or green tea, eggplant (which for me is not a problem because I don't like it anyway), and peppers.

Of course, nicotine isn't the real problem with cigarettes.

Yes, it is addictive. So is caffeine, but I don't see anyone running around freaking out that Starbucks is essentially catering to addicts.

The whole "ZOMG! Vaping is terrible!" seems to be a transference of hatred of smoking tobacco (which is justified given what we know about the dangers of tobacco which are not related to nicotine) and people who have this idea that physical or mental dependency on any substance whether benign or malignant is morally reprehensible.

In short, it smacks of moral panic.

What really sucks, and I applaud your efforts to educate people, is that here is almost certainly safer way for people to enjoy their nicotine and rather than applaud harm reduction, they freak out because it reminds them too much of smoking tobacco.

It is like people who have hangups about sexual activity and say abstinence is the only way to be 100% sure and freak out if anyone tries to suggest we accept the fact that people are going to have sex and teach safer sexual practices.

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Response to Liberal Veteran (Reply #59)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 05:13 PM

60. I think they don't like that people are stopping smoking

and enjoying doing it. Smokers deserve to suffer, dammit. They should quit, yes, but they're supposed to be miserable when they do it. They're not supposed to be having a good time, trying all kinds of delicious flavors, and enjoying themselves while gradually kicking their nicotine habit. That's just not right.

I believe that for some of these very angry people, that's exactly what it is about.

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Response to Liberal Veteran (Reply #59)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 07:21 PM

65. It sure as hell IS a moral panic

Tobacco control freaks are creating this moral panic. They started the anti-smoking campaign of getting smokers to quit, but are now going way too far because they crossed the line by turning the public against smokers, targeting them not only for social ostracism, but also for job and housing discrimination with no legal recourse to fight it. Now the tobacco control lunatics, a.k.a. ANTZ (anti-nicotine/tobacco zealots) or ANTs (anti-nicotine tyrants) are attacking vapers, as if it isn't enough to quit smoking combustible tobacco.
ANTs' abstinence-only tobacco policies are the far left's counterpart to the far right's abstinence-only sex policies.

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #54)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:55 AM

85. …"it's unbefitting a liberal to attack people who've quit smoking by vaping instead."

It's more befitting of a liberal to allow these things into the market (hastily done without regulation, so what lobby was that?) SAFELY.

What you see as hatred of those choosing to vaporize nicotine, I see completely differently as a respiratory therapist of over 40 years.

There is a reason to regulate this. See my post to Aerows down-thread.

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #85)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 09:37 AM

90. Vaping saved my life

And if it's taken away from me because of haters in high places who think they can tell me how to live, either I'll go back to smoking or become an arrogant ex-smoker/vaper who'll look down my nose at people who still use nicotine. I don't want to do either.

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #90)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:11 PM

102. I'm not sure who's telling you to make that choice… It's certainly not me...

I'm simply saying that the way to make sure you are not getting something harmful in the vapor is for the manufacturing of it to be regulated.

Who are these haters you refer to? I'm never in a place where much vaping goes no that isn't a business.

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 04:26 PM

57. K&R nt

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 09:34 PM

77. We still need to regulate this stuff..

One can get cartridges to e-cigerettes made in whatever country produces the product. The fact is, we don't know what conjugates are mixed and under what conditions. I've had concern as a respiratory therapist over the propylene glycol inhalation. We took that stuff out of inhaled medications decades ago.

We need to wean away from cigarette smoke, yes… but we need to use components that are safely regulated.

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #77)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 12:14 AM

83. Would you rather treat

 

a smoker or a vaper?

Which has the longer life span?

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Response to Aerows (Reply #83)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:48 AM

84. Because there isn't any data to even answer that question, I'll take a crack at it...

I'd rather treat a vapor(er), okay? Statistically, cigarette smoking leads to lung AND cardiovascular disease SIGNIFICANTLY. Either one or both of those things severely reduces the quality of lifespan for anyone diagnosed with them. If you could not walk further than 100 yards without your blood vessels suffering downstream to your limbs, or because you had exertion-related shortness of breath, you are not having a quality of living commensurate with enjoying yourself with a son/daughter/grandchild. I see this EVERY DAY. Then, there's the pharmaceutical remedies.

But, I'm guessing that one habit would also follow the other. IOW, there would already be a history of cigarette smoking. Therefore, every treatment associated with the long term effects would be in order.

But since you gave me an either/or choice, I assume from what I'm reading that there are a number of middle school aged kids getting entry into the vaping market, maybe we ought to look at that as a gateway to smoking.

It's cool either way in their eyes.

The idea is for us to use safe and best practices to reduce the gateway to cigarette smoking.

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #84)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 09:41 AM

93. "gateway to cigarette smoking"

 

"gateway to cigarette smoking"

The DEA called, they want their talking point back.

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Response to beevul (Reply #93)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:14 PM

103. I said that, not the DEA…

I'm not sure who you think you're talking to about this subject. Do you think the number of middle aged kids who are picking up the habit is bullshit?

If you're going to be this way about a conversation I can weigh in as a respiratory therapist, I will. But, if your aim is to throw that kind of snark at me, then take a hike. I'll talk to someone who wants to have a real conversation on the subject.

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #103)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:43 PM

108. "But, I'm GUESSING that one habit would also follow the other."

Your job as a respiratory therapist gives your opinion no more weight on this matter.

Nor does you "concern" over PG. Can you cite any studies that prove harm? If not then you are just pulling your title out as a way to legitimize your opinion.

You are also an ex-smoker, so there is that as well.

You are not an expert on vaping nor it's affects.

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #108)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:00 PM

115. I think there ARE no experts on vaping...

My job is to help diagnose pulmonary disease, and my observation give me a better idea and therefore a much better guess at what is going on than you. This is because there has been little if any time for UNREGULATED vapor research. Certainly there could not be any longitudinal studies on the effects at this point.

I work with board certified pulmonologists and have worked with heart, lung and vascular specialists as a licensed practitioner in three different states. When I say that I speak to patients who are trying to quit and using vaping to do so, I report this as a number of observations that far outweigh anything you've said.

I don't have to be a scientist to tell you the relationship between smoking and lung disease. I don't have to be siting studies to prove harm on a bridge to smoking cessation. There well may be NO harm. But unless the industry is regulated as to what the hell they also include in these mixtures, you and I have no science on what is being vaporized. It's as simple as that.

The thing you continue to overlook is the statement that vaping should be regulated so that there IS no harm introduced to the practice of smoking cessation. I already know that smoking has statistically significant bad outcomes for those who sustain the habit. What I don't want to see is exposure to harm in the vapor than can cease the habit of cigarette smoking.

If you can't understand that, then go yell at someone else tonight.

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #115)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 11:17 PM

126. You still have provided no evidence to your silly assertions.

1) That vapes are a "gateway" to nicotine addiction or smoking.

2) Your "concern" about PG being harmful. You cite no studies yet you make an assertion in the form of a professional with "concern", that is lazy logic.

Also, what regulations are you asking for? Do you think Big Pharma (Nicoderm, Chantix, etc) or Big Tobacco are not going to get their lobbyists in there to sway regulation to protect their market share? Regulation is fine if it protects the consumer based on non-biased scientific research. We all want RESONABLE regulation and most of us did a lot of research before deciding to switch. I wish you would do the same before puling this "I'm an expert" stuff.

BTW, stop the stupid "then go yell at someone else" crap...it's really a sad tactic. If you don't like my tone then ignore me.

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #103)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:59 PM

111. I don't see how it would be a gateway to smoking.

Smoking is more expensive, more messy, and honestly, tobacco tastes like crap compared to vaping.

I just can't see someone deciding that blueberry or vanilla or coffee and butterscotch flavored vaping would just be so boring compared to burning leaves and burning leaves with menthol. That would be like kids deciding Snickers and Milky Way candy bars are awful and moving on to the obviously more harmful clove or licorice candy or that chewing on dirt is the new thing.

Vaping has been around for the better part of a decade now and yet tobacco use is still on the decline.

The only way I could see that trend reversing is by well-intentioned legislation that somehow makes vaping costlier than tobacco cigarettes.

It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of ideas to treat vaping as equivalent to smoking weren't either promoted by Big Tobacco intentionally in order to reverse the current trends that are harming their bottom line or by legislators who make a killing (literally and figuratively) in tax revenues from every pack of cigarettes sold, but I have no proof of either. That is idle speculation on my part.

What seems clear to me is that without any evidence of harm, the very last thing anyone should be doing is placing tobacco and vaping on equal ground. Why put barriers in the way of harm reduction for those folks who are trying to move away from cigarettes to something less harmful, since we are talking about PG and VG which are GRAS (generally recognized as safe), nicotine (which is optional and not really that much more of a stimulant than caffeine), and food grade flavors as opposed to smoke, tar, carbon monoxide, cyanide, and about 7000 chemicals in total, 70 of which are known carcinogens?

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Response to Liberal Veteran (Reply #111)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:23 PM

116. Placing tobacco and vaping on equal ground is the point...

We regulate tobacco and we know how harmful it is… We have no regulation as to how liquid is prepared. We need to understand that vaping should be regulated so that there IS no harm introduced to the practice of smoking cessation.

As I told someone else, I already know that smoking has statistically significant bad outcomes for those who sustain the habit. What I don't want to see is exposure to harm in the vapor than can cease the habit of cigarette smoking.

By the way, nicotine is really much more harmful than caffeine. The vascular effect of nicotine is strongly associated with peripheral vascular disease.

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #116)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:43 PM

118. I think it depends on the regulation you are referring to.

If we are talking about keeping nicotine products from children. Sure thing. I have no problem with that.

If we are talking about treating them like pharmaceuticals? That's going to price everyone except big tobacco right out of the business.

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Response to Liberal Veteran (Reply #118)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:46 PM

119. ???

What are you talking about? Never mind… this has gotten to the point where my best advice is ask a pulmonary doctor.

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #119)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 08:00 PM

120. What I am saying is that in a nearly a decade, the only real problems that have existed with e-cigs

....is importing liquid from overseas.

If that is the case, then USP (United States Pharmacopeia) should be sufficient to proved that nicotine liquid is nicotine liquid, propylene glycol is propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin is vegetable glycerin.

Sorta like if I go to a store and buy a bottle of hydrogen peroxide, it should be labeled as such and verified as hydrogen peroxide.

So if you want to sell your own brand of e-liquid, I could live with a regulation require that the makers use USP labeled products to ensure that we aren't getting melamine buffered vg from China or some such in order to sell them.

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Response to Liberal Veteran (Reply #120)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 08:07 PM

124. Thank you...

You made my whole point.

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #103)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 10:23 PM

125. I'm well aware of that.

 

I'm not sure who you think you're talking to about this subject.


I think I'm talking to someone with zero vape experience. Am I wrong?

Do you think the number of middle aged kids who are picking up the habit is bullshit?


How many of them are using vaping as a 'gateway' to smoking?

If you're going to be this way about a conversation I can weigh in as a respiratory therapist, I will.


Whats that supposed to be, some sort of trump card?

But, if your aim is to throw that kind of snark at me, then take a hike. I'll talk to someone who wants to have a real conversation on the subject.


Snark? You are unaware that 'gateway drug' has been a DEA/drug warrior talking point for decades, I take it?

The 'gateway drug' talking point was bullshit when it was invented (Nixon era, if memory serves), and its still bullshit now, and no job title can change that.

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #77)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:56 AM

87. What are the negative effects of inhaling propylene glycol?

I'm genuinely curious. I switched from smoking to vaping four years ago. I can tell you that subjectively, I feel that I breathe much better than I did when I smoked, and I certainly feel healthier overall. My doctor knows I vape, and hasn't said anything to me about propylene glycol being a problem.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #87)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:49 PM

105. Here is a study that tells you why you're breathing better

Comparison of select analytes in aerosol from e-cigarettes with smoke from conventional cigarettes and with ambient air

Highlights

•The e-cigarettes contained and delivered mostly glycerin and/or PG and water.
•Aerosol nicotine content was 85% lower than the cigarette smoke nicotine.
•The levels of HPHCs in aerosol were consistent with the air blanks (<2 μg/puff).
•Mainstream cigarette smoke HPHCs (∼3000 μg/puff) were 1500 times higher than e-cigarette HPHCs.
•No significant contribution of tested HPHC classes was found for the e-cigarettes.

Abstract
Leading commercial electronic cigarettes were tested to determine bulk composition. The e-cigarettes and conventional cigarettes were evaluated using machine-puffing to compare nicotine delivery and relative yields of chemical constituents. The e-liquids tested were found to contain humectants, glycerin and/or propylene glycol, (⩾75% content); water (<20%); nicotine (approximately 2%); and flavor (<10%). The aerosol collected mass (ACM) of the e-cigarette samples was similar in composition to the e-liquids. Aerosol nicotine for the e-cigarette samples was 85% lower than nicotine yield for the conventional cigarettes. Analysis of the smoke from conventional cigarettes showed that the mainstream cigarette smoke delivered approximately 1500 times more harmful and potentially harmful constituents (HPHCs) tested when compared to e-cigarette aerosol or to puffing room air. The deliveries of HPHCs tested for these e-cigarette products were similar to the study air blanks rather than to deliveries from conventional cigarettes; no significant contribution of cigarette smoke HPHCs from any of the compound classes tested was found for the e-cigarettes. Thus, the results of this study support previous researchers’ discussion of e-cigarette products’ potential for reduced exposure compared to cigarette smoke.

More:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0273230014002505


Here is a link to several European studies done over the past ten years, regarding vapes. They are light years ahead in studying this product.

http://www.ecigalternative.com/ecigarette-studies-research.htm

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Response to Oilwellian (Reply #105)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 08:05 PM

122. Yes, that's a study (N = 3)

2. Materials and methods
2.1. Test products

Two disposable e-cigarette products and three rechargeable e-cigarette products were obtained from the manufacturers. Three conventional cigarette products were purchased through wholesale or retail sources for testing.


So, based on the small sample size, the data looked good. It isn't proof, but that's because we've only had it around for a short while.

You know, I have a feeling that anything I might comment on in this thread only invites snark, not from you, but from the others. Frankly, let the science speak for itself, because when someone tries to explain what they do for a living, it inevitably invites biting, unfounded and nasty comment.





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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #77)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:55 PM

109. My cough went away during the first week vaping. How's that for respiratory therapy?

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 08:01 PM

121. Very good to hear - I've worried a bit about it

I quit smoking in 2008 using gum. But I started smoking years ago when I was in a very high-stress job, surrounded by smokers, and it was very hard to quit. I finally dropped a bunch of worries and responsibilities and quit when I found a new low-stress job. That, however, was also a lower paying job. In 2013 I decided I had to be put my nose to the grindstone again if I ever wanted to retire, and I took another high-stress big-responsibility job, where I have to juggle a bunch of work at the same time and be on top of things. Surrounded by smokers again, the stress led to the same familiar problems...but this time I just took up vaping, and I have no inclination to smoke (can't stand the smell or taste anymore, to be honest).

I have a low-voltage mechanical vape, which avoids some of the issues of harmful chemicals, and I mix that with a DIY nicotine gum from DR. It all works reasonably well - cheap and takes care of cravings and all. Dry mouth is the worst side-effect so far, but I'd change things if I had to to avoid long-term problems, and I do try to keep up on the research.

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Mon Aug 17, 2015, 08:06 PM

123. I have not picked up a cigarette since the day I got my vape pen

I love it....it doesn't smell and my health is better. Best of all it tastes amazing.

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Response to Sunlei (Original post)

Tue Aug 18, 2015, 04:27 AM

128. Let the prejudice stop now

I am an ex-smoker, 17 years without it, but the prejudice against smokers is over the top. My workplace even expects employees to enforce the strict, non-smoking policy on fellow employees. I hope E-cigarettes become an acceptable alternative for people who want to smoke. It's not a great habit, but neither are a lot of other things.

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