Buffoon leaders... and how we milked the EU, by veteran Greek columnist and commentator

[Surya Gayatri]

Back in the good old days of 2,500 years ago, the Greeks blamed the gods for their self-induced disasters. In modern times the Brits were to blame, and then the Americans. Now it’s the Germans.

We brag about inventing democracy – however selective – and also about inventing tragedy, but don’t dwell at all on another word we invented: demagoguery.

Demagoguery is what brought Alexis Tsipras and his motley crew of corner-café pseudo-philosophers to power, and demagoguery continues to dominate Greek political discussions even today as we vote for or against the euro.

But let’s not forget comedy, yet another Greek invention.


Tragedy: Taki Theodoracopulos, pictured, says the referendum is a tragi-comedy

Today’s referendum is truly Greek, a tragi-comedy of errors, a yes or no question drafted in cryptic, technocratic gobbledegook, worthy of the best Brussels newspeak.

But let’s start at the beginning:

The piece continues here, with interesting historical perspective:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3149640/Mimi-Big-T-s-buffoon-leaders-milked-EU-Taki-Theodoracopulos-veteran-Greek-commentator-spectator-columnist.html


Finance minister Yanis Varoufakis has wasted five months showing off to the media, Theodoracopulos says


Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras at The 'No' Protest, Athens, Greece, has 'a lot to answer for'


Putting so complex and fateful a question on such short notice is short-sighted and ridiculous, says the veteran Greek commentator

"The irony is that both the EU commissioners and the Tsipras gang have one thing very much in common: they both love power more than any love they might have for the common good"

"Tsipras and Yanis Varoufakis, his buffoon of a finance minister, have a lot to answer for. They have wasted five months playing liar’s poker while showing off to the media. During those months the economy has totally cratered. The Yes or No vote of today is as confusing to the voters as the policy Tsipras has pursued that could lead to a collective economic suicide.

As a Greek whose family helped finance the war of independence against the Turks in 1821, I sincerely hope the ill-advised plebiscite will be ignored by the powers-that-be in the EU. Putting so complex and fateful a question on such short notice is short-sighted and ridiculous."

[Ichingcarpenter]

1. Taki calls Puerto Ricans "semi-savages", thinks Kenya is called "bongo-bongo land" a

He calls Puerto Ricans "semi-savages", thinks Kenya is called "bongo-bongo land"

Taki yearns for this innocent time, when hookers stayed in brothels; today "Arab kleptocrats and vulgar Russian oligarchs" actually take them outside, where they can see daylight. Taki is particularly confused when talking about prostitutes. He rhapsodises about the placid beauties of Madame Claude's, but when he is angry he says Hillary Clinton's "terrible" ankles would bar her from the profession. Perhaps he would prefer a horse as US secretary of state. Then he could play polo on her.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/may/16/taki-gunter-sachs-playboys

[Surya Gayatri]

2. Whatever his other RW proclivities may be, his historical perspective as a Greek

on the Greek mess is interesting.

I 'googled' his bona fides and saw that he's a regular contributor to the British "Spectator", as well.

[Ichingcarpenter]

4. He's a rightwing elitist asshole

and part of the one percent

He's the buffoon : a stupid or foolish person who tries to be funny

[KingCharlemagne]

14. He'd probably support a coup by the military under the aegis that the military

would make the trains run on time. IOW, the very type of collaborator that explains why #Oxi came into existence in the first place and is now celebrated each October 28. What a tool.

ETA: Wrote this before I read post #3 in full, the last paragraph of which bears out my assssment.

[muriel_volestrangler]

20. Being a regular Spectator writer is yet another problem with him

What he writes for the Spectator is a regular column in which he explains how he is rich, part of the elite, and deserves all the riches he inherited, and how the common people are less worthy than him.

He is racist, elitist, and one of the most despicable human beings there is. The nearest American equivalent is Donald Trump.

[Surya Gayatri]

28. Interesting...I got the feeling he was pretty far off to the right when I saw the rest of his CV,

but have never seen any of his offerings in the "Spectator".

[muriel_volestrangler]

31. Spoilt racist playboy who writes to annoy people with less money

The first test for any incoming editor of The Spectator is Taki: to sack him or back him? One of the magazine's longest-running columnists, his dispatches from the frontline of the international beau monde have achieved cult status, though he is as notorious for his racist rants.

Soon after Fraser Nelson took over last summer, he telephoned the 73-year-old columnist, announcing he had bad news. "But the bad news was that nobody had asked him to sack me," laughs Taki Theodoracopulos, from the end of a phone in Manhattan. To a professional irritant, this must be a blow, as there have been calls for Taki's head ever since he started the High Life column in 1977. The millionaire playboy has breezily called himself a "soi-disant anti-Semite" and peppers his conversation with words like "wop", "yid" or "dago"; yet he has survived seven editors and five proprietors. Tomorrow, he publishes an anthology of the past nine years, the last half of which has been relatively controversy-free. Has this been deliberate?
...
The son of a shipping magnate, Taki has never needed to work, yet wealth has not made him idle: in addition to his weekly Spectator column, he has four other columns, edits Taki's Magazine, and co-founded The American Spectator. The only break from his Spectator column was a spell in Pentonville, after he was caught trying to board a plane in possession of cocaine: "At least I got a book out of it."

His energy has also famously been channelled into his sex life, and his advice to lovelorn men is to pursue a girl until she gives in, even if it's out of sympathy. He is currently in pursuit of The Spectator's deputy editor, Mary Wakefield, though his chances are considered slim.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/press/whats-the-point-of-taki-if-he-isnt-offensive-any-more-1974383.html

[Surya Gayatri]

34. I saw something about the scion of the family - looked to be a chip off the old block.

His sexual exploits remind me a bit of Dominique Strauss-Kahn.

[RufusTFirefly]

3. Major unrec. The author is a notorious right-wing provocateur.

In 2002, Taki founded The American Conservative magazine with Pat Buchanan and Scott McConnell. He was also the publisher of the British magazine Right Now! He currently publishes and writes for Taki's Magazine, described as a libertarian webzine of "politics and culture."

...

In March 2010, Taki wrote in an article in Chronicles magazine about Lehman Brothers CEO Richard Fuld that "he's a very homely, simian-looking Jew who couldn't punch his way out of a nursery." In 2004, The Guardian accused Taki of using ethnic slurs, in an article criticizing London mayor Boris Johnson for employing him. While Scotland Yard investigated Taki for some of his alleged racial comments, no charges were made.

...

In July 2013, Nelson defended a column written by Taki headlined "A fascist takeover of Greece? We should be so lucky" in which he justified membership of the Golden Dawn organisation, a "Greek far-right party" according to Press Gazette, as reaction to the corruption of the political elite of Greece.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taki_Theodoracopulos

[hobbit709]

5. Another 1%er that expects austerity to affect everyone but him.

Let the people pay while he pays nothing.

[snooper2]

90. did you read the article?

[hobbit709]

94. Did you read the posts about who the guy is?

[snooper2]

96. yep, but he blames center left and center right, and makes some good points

Like-
-


The party ended when the you-know-what hit the fan around 2010. Soaring wages and gold-plated pensions had to end. Eternal austerity was the antidote. It was like taking a middleweight boxer, putting him on a very strict diet, and expecting him to become a heavyweight contender. It was and remains an impossibility.

Three successive Greek prime ministers played along with the EU charade of austerity, bankrupting the nation further, until the present bunch of ex-student activists and so-called academics came along.
Which brings me to the present.

What EU bureaucrats expect of Greece is a contradiction in terms. Austerity cannot grow an economy. But the EU’s only commitment is to keep the union going, with face-saving devices invented as it staggers along. The fact that austerity will never turn Greece into a northern European economy is obvious, but ignored by the bureaucrooks of Brussels who see only the immediate future.

Tsipras and Yanis Varoufakis, his buffoon of a finance minister, have a lot to answer for. They have wasted five months playing liar’s poker while showing off to the media. During those months the economy has totally cratered. The Yes or No vote of today is as confusing to the voters as the policy Tsipras has pursued that could lead to a collective economic suicide. As a Greek whose family helped finance the war of independence against the Turks in 1821, I sincerely hope the ill-advised plebiscite will be ignored by the powers-that-be in the EU. Putting so complex and fateful a question on such short notice is short-sighted and ridiculous.

[muriel_volestrangler]

102. He defends the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party - you can't trust anything he says to be true

let alone a fair assessment of the situation. He's a racist, anti-semitic elitist who despises anyone not like him. It is just not worth reading anything by him for information or opinion (unless you need examples of how loathsome a human being can be).

He blames center left and center right because he wants the far far right to get power. He is no better than a KKK member.

[randome]

6. Leaders lead. Cowards call for a referendum.

Tsipras has made a bad situation even worse.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You’re cheating yourself if you don’t accept the same benefit of a doubt you’d offer anyone else.[/center][/font][hr]

[hobbit709]

7. So according to you Iceland is run by cowards?

[randome]

12. So according to you we should call for a popular vote on Iran nuke negotiations?

How about gay rights? Whether or not to build a wall along the Mexican border?

Democracies elect representatives. Putting every issue up for a popular vote is the task of a robot, not someone working on the people's behalf.

Tsipras is simply stalling for time. Again.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Surya Gayatri]

8. ...

[Ichingcarpenter]

9. Oligarch vs democracy?... he should lead by dictatorship

Nice to see which side you are on.

LOL

[RufusTFirefly]

10. Yes. Very illuminating

The authoritarian streak that runs through this site is very troubling.

Reminds me of George Seldes' reference to "a man on horseback."

[randome]

13. Tsipras was 'hired' to fix a problem. Putting the problem up for a referendum is saying...

..."I don't know. What do you want to do?"

Some 'fixer'.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[JHB]

40. Or, he's ensuring a consensus on whatever comes next...

Greece will be in for a rough time no matter which way the vote comes up. The vote is an indicator whether the will is really there to turn down the troika's terms, or not.

[truebluegreen]

76. He can't fix a problem some people don't want to have fixed:

"The IMF released a report just a few days ago admitting what so many economists have already said, that Greece's debt is unsustainable and odious. The IMF had this report for months.
Just two days ago Wikileaks released a document from 2011 where German Chancellor Angela Merkel who told her personal assistant that Greece's debts would still be unsustainable under the terms of the new arrangement.

So basically the troika knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that the crushing austerity they are forcing upon Greece is doomed to fail. Greece will never be able to pay these debts.
Yet neither the IMF, nor the ECB, nor the political leaders of Europe are willing to change course. Why?

The debt, in other words, isn't about money. It's about political control."

(my bold)
http://www.opednews.com/articles/26-Centuries-later-Athens-by-Daily-Kos-Debt_Debtor-Nation_Democracy_Greece-150705-780.html

[Aerows]

22. That person

has never seen a spying program they don't adore, nor an authoritarian position that they don't support.

[KingCharlemagne]

15. Tsipras campaigned and was elected on a platform that said there would be no

deal that did not include restructuring of Greek debt. For five months, the Troika refused to consider restructuring Greek debt, even though the IMF's own economists on staff knew that restructuring would have to occur. The Troika presented Tsipras and Varofakis with an ultimatum: either agree to more austerity with no debt restrcturing or lose all further aid. Tsipras is putting that perfidious (German-inspired) diktat to the will of the Greeks, Syriza never having campaigned to negotiate that type of surrender.

The fucking Germans and French have made a bad situation worse. People's lives now lie in the balance.

Oxi! Oxi! Oxi!

[randome]

18. Then he should have been honest in saying he was unable to do that.

Not try to extort money from Germany for WWII (making himself a laughingstock in the process.)

Not trying to get Europe to throw more good money after bad.

And certainly not giving up and putting the issue up for a popular vote.

And now still more debt restructuring? The reason the IMF is insisting on tighter controls is that everyone knows Greece will never honor her commitments.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[KingCharlemagne]

19. Um, putting the Troika's ultimatum up for a referendum is exactly the way Tsipras is

saying that he was unable to do that. He was not elected to negotiate more austerity. But that is exactly what the Troika is insisting upon, despite 5 months of concessions from Tsipras and the Greek negotiators.

The Troika is using the ultimatum to try to force regime change on Greeks. We (or most of us) were opposed to this when the U.S. tried to pull it in Iraq.

[RufusTFirefly]

25. The Greeks were double-crossed

The Troika is trying to force Tsipras to do precisely what he was elected not to do. That's why he is putting the issue to a referendum.

[KingCharlemagne]

39. Beautifully put. Doesn't seem to matter how many times we say it or

how many different ways we express it, though. Those who have already condemned Greece will not be convinced.

Oxi!

[Surya Gayatri]

35. For those of us who live on the Euro economy and receive our

retirement pensions in said currency, the potential fallout from this mess cannot be reduced to a campaign slogan.

[stevenleser]

55. To folks who view this as an ideological war, they don't care about you. Sad to say.

I had an argument with one of these folks the other day and I mentioned the Greek people in my first comment and the other person talked about everything else other than the people for their first four comments and then finally deigned to talk about the Greek people as if it was a big annoyance. All of their other comments were ideological B.S. and accusations.

I would support any plan from any ideology that seemed halfway decent and well thought through, but that's the problem.

As Krugman noted, it's pretty obvious that Tsipras and the rest of Syriza don't have a plan. Krugman was actually more gracious about it saying:

"You don’t have to love Syriza, or believe that they know what they’re doing — it’s not clear that they do, although the troika has been even worse — to believe that European institutions have just been saved from their own worst instincts."

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/05/europe-wins/?_r=0

This is a pretty serious situation to be in for a group that doesn't know what they are doing and has no plan that they can articulate to anyone.

The ideologues do not care about the people in Greece or the people anywhere else in the Eurozone. They only care that the "troika" doesn't get its way.

[truebluegreen]

78. And the troika only cares that it does get its way.

Funny you left that part out: there are two sides to this impasse. You quoted / bolded Krugman to bolster your point, and then ignored his: "the troika has been even worse".

[stevenleser]

85. The troika is not posting here on DU and their misdeeds don't absolve DUers of the need to have

empathy for those caught in the crossfire like the OP.

Demagoguery against the troika doesn't help people. There are zero DUers who are in favor of austerity, Z-e-r-o, so those of you engaging in an ideological war can stop patting yourselves on the back.

You are not unique in recognizing austerity is a failed policy.

The question is, what is the next step. What is the plan? Does Tsipras and Syriza have one? And the answer is no, they don't. They don't have a clue, and Krugman as much as recognizes this.

[truebluegreen]

87. "There are zero DUers who are in favor of austerity, Z-e-r-o"

Really? How do you interpret this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6943943

[stevenleser]

92. I interpret it as being against Syriza and being against how Greece operated prior to 2010.

It is more than a stretch to interpret that as being pro-Austerity.

Of course, you could always ask that poster.

[truebluegreen]

97. I have asked.

I get what I consider evasive replies, along the lines of (my interpretation) I-want-Greece-to-behave. The Greeks are not doing what they have been told to do and that is (apparently) the problem. If that is not pro-austerity, then what is it? Has there been another offer?

And we are not talking about how Greece operated prior to 2010, we are talking about what Greece, and the EU are doing now. So what, exactly, is the plan from the EU side? More austerity....but I'm sure that is not the same as being "pro-austerity" so it's all good.

[stevenleser]

99. So you are saying one can only be pro-Syriza or pro-Austerity? For one thing Syriza has no

plan one can point to so that is a dubious position on that score alone. Simply being anti-Austerity is not a plan.

[truebluegreen]

101. Simply put, austerity is not a plan either.

Not for stability, not for repayment, not for rebuilding--none of it. And that has apparently been known for years:

"The IMF released a report just a few days ago admitting what so many economists have already said, that Greece's debt is unsustainable and odious. The IMF had this report for months.
Just two days ago Wikileaks released a document from 2011 where German Chancellor Angela Merkel who told her personal assistant that Greece's debts would still be unsustainable under the terms of the new arrangement.

So basically the troika knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that the crushing austerity they are forcing upon Greece is doomed to fail. Greece will never be able to pay these debts.
Yet neither the IMF, nor the ECB, nor the political leaders of Europe are willing to change course. Why?

The debt, in other words, isn't about money. It's about political control."

(my bold)

http://www.opednews.com/articles/26-Centuries-later-Athens-by-Daily-Kos-Debt_Debtor-Nation_Democracy_Greece-150705-780.html

[stevenleser]

103. That doesn't excuse Syriza for not having a plan. No one here will argue in favor of austerity. nt

[truebluegreen]

107. You keep saying that: it isn't true.

And even if it were, so what? Syriza doesn't have a plan and that's inexcusable, but the EU doesn't have a (workable) plan and that's OK? They should just keep pushing the unworkable plan that has been not-working for seven years? Or Greece is totally on its own? After the EU deliberately and with malice aforethought made a bad situation worse?

Enough, enough, enough. Greece said no to more austerity; whatever went before they've been trying to be "responsible" for 7 years and surprise! austerity didn't work. If the EU wants to salvage anything, they can start acting like a responsible party too and change course. "Now" would be a good time.

[brentspeak]

24. Meanwhile, anonymous internet posters know all about bravery. n/t

[MFrohike]

74. I don't disagree

The Greek situation is not black and white. Greece is definitely being screwed by the EU elite, but Syriza are a pack of incompetents. I'm not sure which is funnier, in a morbid way, about the entire referendum: the fact Tsipras vowed never to do such a thing not so long ago or the fact that they voted on a proposal that has been expired for almost a week. I shouldn't laugh, because it's in the middle of a tragedy for the actual people involved, but it's the kind of farce you really expect to find in satire, not reality.

[DFW]

11. Varoufakis and Tsipiras are not doing Greece any good.

Just calling yourself a "socialist" doesn't qualify anyone for sainthood.

The Greeks pulled off a massive fraud to join the euro. Now, they demand periodic infusions of tens to hundreds of billions from the other Europeans, saying "just ONE more time, and we'll be OK." No, they won't. The corruption is deep-rooted in Greece, and lip service from some media darlings isn't going to change it. The Greeks are counting on Merkel leading the EU to ever more payments into Greece's bottomless pit, and expecting a different result. So far, they have gotten away with it. It won't last. Greece does belong in the EU. They NEVER belonged in the Euro. Just because a right wing buffoon calls out a left-wing buffoon doesn't mean that the guy on the left is automatically not a buffoon. It's a fiction the taxpayers of the rest of Europe are more than tired of paying for.

[fasttense]

17. The Greek people and honest politicians did not commit the fraud

A group of corrupt politicians and banksters committed the fraud of getting into the EU and getting huge loans to pay for weapons.

Giving Greece more loans to pay off the fraudulent loans is ridiculous. Making retires suffer instead of prosecuting the corrupt politicians and banksters is just stupid.

Austerity is a complete failure as is US sequester- our form of secret austerity. The current Greek government at least is not rolling over whenever Germany and the UK bark.

Here's hoping the Greek people don't buy the NGO's propaganda and vote NO to another round of austerity.

[DFW]

21. They don't even know what they're voting for.

The referendum was so convoluted in its language that most Greeks didn't even know what they were voting for. Finding honest politicians in Greece is almost a contradiction in terms. Anyone saying they have a simple solution is lying, and there is no one running for office telling the people the truth--that basically the governments in power up to now have bankrupted the country, and they are screwed for the short term.

What the Greeks SHOULD do is vote out their whole government and start fresh with some people who have never been in office before, and who are not academics, who tend to prance around with theories and then punish others when their theories don't work (e.g. France). But they won't.

Austerity failed because the Greeks don't control their own currency. They needed some deficit spending which they couldn't do if they couldn't devalue their currency. They would have muddled along if they had never joined the Euro. Some of them thought that if they had Germany's currency that overnight they would become Germany. It doesn't work like that. If Germany had adopted Greece's economics, i.e. no tax collection, retirement at 55 with generous pensions, etc., Germany would have gone belly-up, too. Food, energy, housing, someone has to make that stuff, and it doesn't materialize by government decree or confiscation of a few rich guys' yachts.

Our (almost nextdoor-) neighbors here in Düsseldorf are Greek, and they just shake their heads in resignation, and are happy they live here in Germany.

[Surya Gayatri]

38. Excellent analysis, DFW...

[DFW]

41. I have a few Greek friends as neighbors or near neighbors

???????ώ!

They're all working class immigrants, some run a small restaurant, another manages an auto repair shop, etc. They all have relatives back home in Greece with whom they talk every day. They tell us what is going on from the perspective of their relatives. They have been here in Germany for decades now, and it's sort of home to them, but in their hearts, they remain as Greek as moussaka. They are as secure as any immigrant to Germany can be who has solidly established themselves. Some of their kids went to the same elementary school as mine, some were even classmates. But their emotional ties with Greece are still very strong and they are very worried about the near future.

[Munificence]

23. I agree with you

on everything but this:

"Making retires suffer instead of prosecuting the corrupt politicians and banksters is just stupid."

Just like in the U.S our retirees have benefited from their "set up". Our retirees and anyone over 50 years old in both countries have lived well beyond their means, living in comfort as self centered individuals passing the problems onto our youth vs dealing with it....ah, it's all perfect until the day that it isn't.

There was a time when the older established folks would never sell out their younger brethren and that was perfect until the day it wasn't.

Greek debt is not sustainable....and ours is? Now you think about $18 trillion in debt as a nation. Has anyone ever considered for a single moment how that would be paid down? Just think of the money that has been stolen from us just by financing this debt. Ignorance I say. We like to act like Clinton had a surplus and we are ignorant to the fact that he started raiding social security, that was no surplus but we continue to push these lies. When have we ever seen our debt paid down?

At least the Greeks will have support, when this comes to the U.S the entire thing will blow up. Make no mistake about it, we are just as bad off as Greece.... however we've used the printing press to double down and fool folks into thinking that it's not so bad.

I'm slowly transitioning over to becoming a realist. There are real problems out there that need to be dealt with, but all that has to be done to keep us ignorant are the distractions. But as long 80-90% of our society continues to wallow in their ignorance then everything will be just fine, until it isn't.

It's all based on lies, has been for 30-40 years. We hold no one accountable for their actions these days, we let them (politicians, banskters) rob us blind. Our retirees set back and let it develop into this over a few decades as they were promised the "good life", and really not giving a good god damn about the opportunities of our younger generation.

It's time we all wake up, this division among political parties and individuals is nothing but a game to keep us distracted from the real world problems.

[SusanCalvin]

26. I don't normally jump into

things that look like they might turn into major brouhahas, but...

I'm not sure why you are (it appears to me) blaming older people and retirees, especially with such a broad brush. Shall we voluntarily discorporate?

[Munificence]

30. As a matter of fact I am

They, instead of seeing the future went along with everything, they were/are still are in power. The entire time turning a blind eye.

Just like the latest flag issues, the TPP, etc. We'll rise and say no to social issues but when it comes to monetary issues, fiscal issues, etc it's a "go along to get along". Been this way for a few decades.

We sold our souls on NAFTA to enrich a few, we've sold our souls now to TPP in order to enrich a few. But all of that is fine and dandy for older folks, they "already have theirs". They already have theirs by raping the riches of the past 40 years. No discipline what-so-ever when concerning the future of our youth.

They have raped, plundered and pillaged thinking we've have perpetual growth in order to support our youth and it is not coming.

Their guilt:

Setting back and letting it all happen, going along to get along.

Greece will be much better off with a "no" vote in the long run, sure you'll lose a generation or more in the rebuilding process but at least they are finally saying "enough is enough". It has taken to this point to arrive here. Where are we in the U.S. I know the older folks only worry about their unsustainable pensions when they could give two shits less about our youth. Our youth will not see those pensions, they can barely even get a fucking job to pay rent. But no, our older folks who have benefited from our debt still want theirs.

This political system, the corruption, the banksters has come along because no one ever could say "No". Like a bunch of meth heads, as long as they got theirs then fuck the rest.

[Comrade Grumpy]

43. You are really full of it. You're blaming whole generations?

Thankfully, now that you're on the scene, you can show up the error of our ways.

Your post is really obnoxious.

[Munificence]

47. Ok then who is to blame then?

I was fascinated by our hippie generation. Question all authority. They pushed that hard, that is until that generation came into power. Do tell, where are those old hippies? Ah, they vanished, right into banking, politics and a nice little comfy pension

At least I am putting forth my idea of the errors. I presume you think everything is perfectly fine?

And by the name, I presume you are indeed over 55. How's those grand kids of yours doing?

Yes, a few generations fucked this entire thing up royally (Really the "boomer" generation). They got theirs though.

That vote in Greece if looked at will be "No" from the younger crowd and "yes" from the older. The young crowd has absolutely nothing to lose. The older crowd has a pension that was mysteriously given to them out of thin air. The older crowd ran up these debts, not the young.

Next to fall:

Italy, Spain, France....coming to a country near you.

[SusanCalvin]

51. To quote you:

"It's time we all wake up, this division among political parties and individuals is nothing but a game to keep us distracted from the real world problems."

It seems pretty divisive to me to blame me and my little pension. I'm not a member of the 1%, I assure you. Would you be happier if I were on the street?

Edited to add that I'm not currently drawing said pension, and frankly don't intend to. But I think everyone deserves a little security in their old age. Would you prefer we were on the street?

[GeorgeGist]

50. Not all of us are Reagan Democrats ...

but none of us should be.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

104. You're poorly named.

'Miserliness' might be a better handle for you.

A hell of a lot of old people do not 'have theirs'. You think all of those 70 year olds working as wall mart greeters, duncan donuts cashiers, and other mac-jobs 'have theirs' and are just taking those jobs out of spite, to prevent young people from having them?

The problem is not any particular generation, any particular age. It's people of every age, who belong to the wealthiest of the wealthy, and feel that everyone else needs to be exploited to keep them in the lap of luxury.

People on pensions are NOT the problem. They are people who deliberately took LESS pay while they were working, with the express understanding that in return, they would get pensions. The problem is that the people who were SUPPOSED to take that money and invest it to pay for those pensions instead took a lot of that money and spent it on other things, planning to pay for it out of their gambling winnings as it were, but instead merely lost it. People with pensions paid into the system to fund those pensions, and many of them instead found they were merely being robbed for years on end.

[elehhhhna]

54. he is full of baloney

Most of us from the middle class down live below or at our means. It's the upper middle and above that's living on credit. Regardless of the generation.

[snooper2]

93. over 25% of the people work for the state with very generous pensions, retire at 50

Yep...

Sounds like a model for success when the only things bringing in any money are tourism and selling some fruit

[SusanCalvin]

108. That's Greece, and that's certainly stupid.

But I believe the poster I replied to was talking about, or at least including, here.

[DFW]

45. "Our retirees and anyone over 50 years old in both countries have lived well beyond their means."

HUH?

Yes, the Greeks were insane to offer full retirement with full pensions at age 55. "Vote for us and we'll give you anything you want" does work as an election slogan in some countries, it's true.

But retirees do NOT, as a rule live in luxury or beyond their means as a rule. There aren't millions of retirees in the USA all declaring bankruptcy suddenly--not that I've heard anyway. My dad was retired by cancer at age 78, and he didn't stop working until he lost the power to use a keyboard, about 9 days before he died, not owing a cent to anyone, as his executor found out. You're telling me he lived beyond his means? For that matter, I'm now 63. My wife is retired, I'm not, and don't see an reason to stop working for the next 20 years if my health hold out. I don't live beyond my means either. I don't know ANYONE over 50 who lives beyond their means, for that matter.

That sounds like a REALLY far-fetched generalization, for either Greece, the USA, where I come from, or Germany, where I now live.

[mythology]

61. I think it would be accurate to say that they lived beyond the means of their government

to pay for their lifestyles. That isn't to say that individuals were living beyond their means, but that the government wasn't able to create a financial system to pay for it. But I'm guessing that there wasn't any significant efforts to vote to delay pension availability or continuing to work past the point where they could get a pension.

It seems like a variation of the free rider problem where a public good is only available if enough people pay for it, but any individual has the incentive to not pay in for the public good.

[alarimer]

84. Retirees and other "old people" are just as screwed as you are.

In the US, everyone pays into those pension systems. It's the capitalist pieces of shit running companies that are screwing everyone over, and putting everyone's retirement at risk. I guess you'd prefer old folks to fuck off and die?


I'm not going to say what I'd really like to here because I'm sure it would get hidden.

[Munificence]

106. No,

what I am saying is that "the old people" sat idly by letting all this come to fruition.

The older generation (boomers) could have stopped this shit years ago.

Ignorance, maybe? But it was so easy to get along and go along and not making any waves.

The boomer generation has literally fucked every generation under them in U.S today, because let's face it, politically and financially while you guys held the reigns you turned a blind eye and did not hold a politicians, bankers, and corporations accountable for shit.

You guys created the scenario to get us to where we are today. You guys for the past 30 damn years turned a blind eye to corruption, accountability, etc....not once did you guys demand better, so they rolled right over your generation. Now, my generation and younger gets to try and clean this mess up.

Your generation did not guard the watch tower, your generation turned a blind eye.

Your generation gave us a bought and paid for political system by bankers and corporations.

My generation and younger has not the slightest chance of doing as well as your generation, you guys let them rob the younger generations future.

Your generation put us into the endless Iraq war. Your generation set us up as the World Police force. Your generation used to have manufacturing.....your generation subbed that shit out to other countries. Your generation gave us work visas.

I would have enjoyed the prosperity of your generation and probably would have done the same fucking over of the younger generation as it sure was party time for the boomers. Not a care in the world, not a bit of accountability for shit.

Your generation had the "Hippie Movement" to question all authority which was great....that is until they became the authority and robbed the place.

Your generation failed miserably, although you will say it was the "good ol days" it was only this way because you guys sold out the younger generations. And now we will have to clean up your mess or live a life of medium wage jobs and government assistance.

Your generation voted all these fuckers into power and gave them this power. Your generation bailed out the bankers vs. the folks.

Your generation has given us the NSA. Your generation created the terrorists of today.

The boomer generation was a generation of selfish narcissists.

Today it is still the same. Your generation is QE'n and stop loss the stock market, you guys are bailing your own investments out. Everything we have done over the past 40 years has catered to the boomer generation and it still exists today. You guys continue to set everything up to take care of your interests, telling the younger generations "tough luck" all the while.

[Surya Gayatri]

36. This is precisely what I've been trying to help non-Europeans to understand...

"The Greeks pulled off a massive fraud to join the euro. Now, they demand periodic infusions of tens to hundreds of billions from the other Europeans, saying "just ONE more time, and we'll be OK." No, they won't. The corruption is deep-rooted in Greece, and lip service from some media darlings isn't going to change it."

[DFW]

46. You and I both live here, speak local languages

It's hard to communicate everything we experience first hand to people who only come over on vacation and speak only English.

You and I have to take that into account when replying, since what seems obvious to us here in Europe definitely is not to many back home. No one's fault, but we gotta reflect before replying sometimes.

[Surya Gayatri]

57. Definitely more difficult than a mere language barrier...more like cultural cross-purposes.

[DFW]

58. I run into that a lot when I'm back in Texas

I don't hang with right wingers on purpose, but in Texas, they're hard to avoid. We don't have many in our head office, but we definitely have some.

The most fanatic, dogmatic, "don't-tell-me-because-I-know-I'm-right" Republicans--the ones who know exactly what things are like here in Germany, or in France, or in England, Greece, Moldavia, or wherever, are--**surprise!**--the ones that have never lived here (mostly, never even been here). That they speak no European languages is a given.

[Surya Gayatri]

60. I don't even bother when I make one of my rare trips back to Nebraska...

"Un dialogue des sourds..."

Sometimes I really have to bite my tongue, but I know that keeping quiet will be less stressful in the long term.

[RufusTFirefly]

16. Top economists see 'No' vote as Greece's least-worst choice

Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel laureate in economics and professor at Columbia University in the United States, this week wrote that voting 'Yes' for the conditions tied to the bailout or 'No' both carry "huge risks."

But "a no vote would at least open the possibility that Greece ... might grasp its destiny in its own hands" and shape a future that "though perhaps not as prosperous as the past, is far more hopeful than the unconscionable torture of the present," he said.

Paul Krugman, another Nobel winner, who writes for The New York Times, agreed. A 'No' result may force Greece to exit the euro, "which would be hugely disruptive in the short run. But it will also offer Greece itself a chance for real recovery."

Thomas Piketty, a highly respected French economist who wrote the influential "Capital in the 21st Century," told French television network BFMTV that Greek voters would be right to reject the bailout offer put to them in the referendum.

http://dailystar.com.lb/News/World/2015/Jul-04/305173-top-economists-see-no-vote-as-greeces-least-worst-choice.ashx

[Surya Gayatri]

33. Like I said somewhere else: stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place...

And, they've spent decades getting there.

[truebluegreen]

79. So, since you seem to be against the referendum and

against default, you would prefer that they remain there?

[Surya Gayatri]

83. Remain where...in their tax-evading, welfare abusing la-la land?

No, somebody needs to come up with a plan to change Greece's MO to one that conforms with European norms.

[truebluegreen]

86. So you are with the Troika. Fine.

I'm with Krugman:

"Of course, that’s not the way the creditors would have you see it. Their story, echoed by many in the business press, is that the failure of their attempt to bully Greece into acquiescence was a triumph of irrationality and irresponsibility over sound technocratic advice.

But the campaign of bullying — the attempt to terrify Greeks by cutting off bank financing and threatening general chaos, all with the almost open goal of pushing the current leftist government out of office — was a shameful moment in a Europe that claims to believe in democratic principles. It would have set a terrible precedent if that campaign had succeeded, even if the creditors were making sense.

What’s more, they weren’t. The truth is that Europe’s self-styled technocrats are like medieval doctors who insisted on bleeding their patients — and when their treatment made the patients sicker, demanded even more bleeding."

[Surya Gayatri]

88. I'm with the millions of working-class Europeans,

(in fact I'm one of them) who survive month to month on minimum wage salaries and just-get-by pensions, all paid in euros, whose purchasing power will tank along with the euro--all thanks to Greece's profligacy, fraud and mismanagement.

[truebluegreen]

89. So you are with the Troika

trying to bring those fraudulent, profligate, mismanaged Greeks into line.

[Surya Gayatri]

91. If you want to persist in conflating the millions of

"Little People" who risk big in this debacle with the ECB, the IMF and the EC commissioners, then yes, I guess you'd have to say I'm with your 'Troika'.

[truebluegreen]

105. Not my Troika,

and it wasn't the little people like yourself who took these risks, was it? I may have missed it, but was there a referendum, did you get to vote? And if you didn't, who made / decided to make all these loans? The ECB, the IMF, the EC commissioners....do they have any responsibility for this debacle?

"The IMF released a report just a few days ago admitting what so many economists have already said, that Greece's debt is unsustainable and odious. The IMF had this report for months.
Just two days ago Wikileaks released a document from 2011 where German Chancellor Angela Merkel who told her personal assistant that Greece's debts would still be unsustainable under the terms of the new arrangement.

So basically the troika knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that the crushing austerity they are forcing upon Greece is doomed to fail. Greece will never be able to pay these debts.
Yet neither the IMF, nor the ECB, nor the political leaders of Europe are willing to change course. Why?

The debt, in other words, isn't about money. It's about political control."

(my bold)

http://www.opednews.com/articles/26-Centuries-later-Athens-by-Daily-Kos-Debt_Debtor-Nation_Democracy_Greece-150705-780.html

Seems to me, there is plenty of blame to go around, and the actions of the Troika have--for at least 4 years--done nothing but make a bad situation worse. We can all point fingers, and wish that this hadn't happened, but here we are--here you are--and what is to be done next?

What was that definition of insanity again? The austerity has to stop, Greece was right to vote no.

[1939]

98. If they go back to the drachma

1. Greece repudiates all foreign debt.

2. Greece leaves the euro and goes back to the drachma

3. Greece cranks up the printing press.

4. Greece fails to reform their system.

5. In a few years, a worker will need a wheelbarrow full of drachma to buy a loaf of bread.

[Surya Gayatri]

100. Looks headed that way...like somebody said elsewhere:

AUSTERITY ON STEROIDS.

[madville]

27. Greece is unrecoverable in it's current form

They need a financial, economic and government reset.

At this point of the EU did give them 5 or 10 more billion we are right back at this point in 6 months or a year. No one or anything else is going to invest in them before they run through any new financial aid, it's just kicking the can down the road at this point.

[Surya Gayatri]

29. ...

[Aerows]

32. And this is going to be one

where France and Germany lose, because they are trying to financially engineer regime change - and Greece said no.

Everyone quibbling about this is screaming about the stock market. Why? Because heaven help the Euro if the rest of those under the yoke realize that they don't have to put up with the ECB and IMF's bullshit anymore, either.

It's the ones who are currently dominating the Euro that are the most strident in rebuking Greece - "Oh shit, the house of cards, the foundation that we built up as the reason for the Euro is coming down."

That's what this is all about, and Greece is saying fuck you, you promised a stable currency and can't deliver.

[Surya Gayatri]

37. "It's the ones who are currently dominating the Euro that are the most strident in rebuking Greece"

Talk to the Slovakians, Finns, Hungarians, Baltic States, etc. etc. Fed up they are...

[DFW]

44. France and Germany lose? Where did that come from?

France and Germany have ALREADY lost, to the tune of hundreds of billions they know perfectly well they will never see again. They don't care WHAT regime is in Greece as long as it stops asking them for more handouts that their taxpayers are not in a mood to hand over. Schadenfreude isn't in play here except on DU maybe. The Germans can get their olive oil from Italy and Spain (and Tunisia if need be), and there are enough Greek restaurants in Germany that no one needs to take a vacation in Greece to get a good avgolemono or souvlaki. They are tired of Tsipiras coming on TV with his sob story of the week or Varoufakis coming on TV with his BS of the week. Europe gets it already. Big bad Europe beating up on the valiant, good-hearted, well-meaning poor Greek socialists. The Greeks don't collect property taxes because no one knows who owns what property, but the French and the Germans are responsible for that?

This "it's everyone else's fault but ours" routine has gotten so old, the mold is covering it by now. The Greeks cheated to join the Euro system, and they should have been invited to leave it way before now. There are countries in the EU that do not use the Euro. Greece should always have been one of them.

[SusanCalvin]

52. Sounds reasonable to me.

Thank you for the insights.

[strategery blunder]

75. That would be all well and good

If the troika hadn't rejected the very reforms related to tax enforcement that Greece needs to address such problem. They were too ideologically blinded by neoliberal ideology and/or corruption themselves and demanded that the budget be balanced on the backs of the poor, not on the backs of those who have been evading taxes to the tune of the Greek government only receiving 60 cents on the dollar of taxes owed to it.

That deserved a big, fat OXI.

Ultimately I see this as a situation in which both sides were right, but over completely different timeframes, and they were too rigid to engage in constructive negotiation before it came to this point.

Angela Merkel and the Eurocrats were right in that Greece needed to rein in its spending to get its debt under control--over a time span of a couple decades.

The Greeks were right in that forcing that kind of austerity on them in the SHORT TERM threw their economy into a deflationary depression from which there could be no escape other than either a debt write-off, a long-term grace period to allow them to get their house in order (i.e. substantial restructuring), or Grexit.

UNLESS the Greek economy is allowed to breathe in the short term, it will never survive in the long term, let alone grow to the point that the debt that has been accumulated can actually be paid.

Hell, extending new loans is a fool's errand. But there would be far less need for them if the debt was restructured as if it was a student loan--with a deferment of payments at the beginning to allow Greece some time to fix its economy.

I think by now the Greek voters have had enough of the corruption on all sides. Why do you think Syrzia won in the first place? Because the existing political order was so corrupt and had robbed the country blind and handed it to the troika.

[truebluegreen]

80. ^^this^^

[DFW]

81. The Germans never demanded that the debt be shunted on the backs of the poor

They demanded that the Greek government do SOMETHING that would allow the appearance of becoming active (no one in Germany or France expects any of the debt to be paid back, EVER, but they need it on their books to make their own ledgers look nice, sort like our own national debt, and default removes that possibility).

Initiating ledgers listing the owners of property would have been a nice start. The Greeks don't collect property taxes because they have no list of who owns what. That kind of thing. If Syriza hasn't done that, why do you imagine that is? Maybe they are no more free of corruption than the last government? Somethings are just too ingrained to imagine stopping, maybe.

Also, calling their greatest creditor, Germany, "terrorists" and "Nazis" is not the best way to get German taxpayers to go along with yet ANOTHER bailout. Now the Greeks are using Fox Noise tactics saying the Germans never paid any war debts, either, and like good Foxsuckers, plenty of people have taken up that flag as well because it's what they want to hear.

Merkel is now facing a taxpayer revolt at home by people saying, "well, if their government is calling us terrorists and Nazis, why should we send them another cent? We, too, have bridges in need of repair." My wife, a solid SPD/Greens voter all her life, a low-paid social worker though she was offered a job as a high-priced model, has had it being called a Nazi, and wants the Greeks cut off cold now. Her own dad got his leg blown off at Stalingrad because of the Nazis. Even-tempered though she is, calling her a Nazi is one way to get her anger to come out of hibernation.

[Comrade Grumpy]

42. You should be embarrassed to post this tripe.

[Electric Monk]

48. +1

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

49. As 'semi-savage' I agree. I think we need to get David Duke's take on things

as well.

[Surya Gayatri]

59. Thank you for your input...

But, sorry, no 'mea culpa' will be forthcoming.

[DonCoquixote]

53. those of this type do one service

They remind of us of what the right really thinks. The Bushes of the world can put a kind face on their evil, as if they really do not have the sociopathic tendencies they do, but the trumps and this guy are people you can point to and say "these are the people the right wing want to put in power!"

[roamer65]

56. The Euro will become the poster child for why...

nations should first attain political union before attempting monetary union.

[Surya Gayatri]

62. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141136352#post44

the referendum risks showing that “a monetary union without political union can only exist in violation of basic principles of democracy.”

[Aerows]

63. You are in France

France and Germany had the most to gain by forcing Greece to buckle under crippling austerity.

They said no.

It's your move.

[Surya Gayatri]

64. Nobody, least of all French pensioners like myself, has anything to gain from Greece's

self-induced slide into insolvency.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026941141#post35

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026941141#post27

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026941141#post36

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026941141#post44

Couldn't say it any better...

[Aerows]

65. I think the decision by Greece

is pissing off all of the right people.

[Surya Gayatri]

66. So pleased that you are pleased...

When the Euro-zone begins to disintegrate and millions of working-class wage earners and pensioners see their modest livelihood go down the tubes...

Your disinterested schadenfreude-at-a-distance will be noted.

[Aerows]

67. This is exactly the disconnect

that if Greece defaults the whole Euro fails. But I thought they were nothing but a drag?

This is why it appears to be crocodile tears to everybody else.

Like I said, it is pissing off all the right people.

[Surya Gayatri]

68. Like I said...

Your disinterested schadenfreude-at-a-distance has been and will be noted.

[Aerows]

69. Please

Go ahead and note it.

I'm obviously interested enough to know what is going on, and to understand the nuances that are involved.

But don't let that get in the way of the "oh woe is us" theme you have going on.

The "oh woe is us" is usually the 1% that are frightened they might have to start paying a tab like the little people. OMG, a person with a high income might actually have to pay taxes for the same services they use proportionate to their income like those little people?

"Oh woe is us!"

[Surya Gayatri]

70. Are you seriously serious?

"The "oh woe is us" is usually the 1% that are frightened they might have to start paying a tab like the little people."

I and millions like me ARE the "little people" you champion, living from month to month on a minimum wage salary or a barely-get-by pension.

The turmoil and assault on the euro that will now ensue make all of us very wary, not woeful, but wary and worried.

Your implied disdain for us "little people" has been noted.

[Aerows]

71. If you have a job

and are worried about this, I suggest meditation or a hobby on your off time.

This is going to impact exactly no one but the 1%. They will try to make the debt trickle down, but unfortunately, the entire globe is getting wise to those tactics.

If you need a hobby or just want extra income, start making torches and sharpening pitchforks because if the 1% keep continuing like they are, torches and pitchforks will be in high demand.

[Surya Gayatri]

73. Thank you for your sage counsel. I DO meditate daily and have done for 25 years...

If you read what I said upthread, I am retired and on a fixed-income, French government pension. If the euro tanks, mine and millions of other people's purchasing power tanks along with it.

[Surya Gayatri]

72. Also, FWIW, being single with no dependents, I pay taxes through the nose and do not resent it.

I consider that it's what I owe for the privilege of living in a fairly well-functioning society.

[snooper2]

95. Are you going to start shipping them toilet paper in a few months?

[hatrack]

77. The Daily Mail? Are you fucking kidding?

The Daily Mail? Jesus Christ . . .