I'm remembering back when President Obama was re-elected, how soooo many people were going on about

then laugh

and no new construction would ever take place. The terrorists would win. Dogs would marry each other. Churches would be banned. The borders would be opened wide and every freedom we knew as Americans would be taken away.

he has done with his magnificent presidency. I understand the TPP and its long term goals for the USA, for corporations and more importantly, for the impact it will have on the nations involved in it. I understand economics a little bit, and I get it. He is in the TPP for the really, really big picture, far bigger than the twits in the GOP can grasp; they have no clue what this is about. He does, he supports it, he's tweaking the fine points and it will all be just fine. I trust him on this one. He's the guy on the white horse in this scenario... I'm good with that.

That Obama had to basically cajole and threaten Democrats for this thing, while he and Boehner and Mitch became BFFs in order to pass Fast Track? Can you grasp that? It is a corporate giveaway. I don't think the individual countries are going to be any better off.

completely? What's in it for him?

Another theory is that this is payback for rich people like Penny Pritzkger helping him be president.
The leaked portions look very much like corporate coups, nothing particularly good on a country by country basis. The Democrats who have jumped through hoops to read portions of it say that if the people knew what was in it, they would be angry.

Eventually, after it is too late to change one word, we will see it and weep or be relieved. The TPP will actually be my standard for who I will vote for and/or support from here on out.

never sold anyone out, for any reason. The only person who 'helped him be President' was his own damn self. Penny Pritzkger is no secret puppet master.

Mrs. Clinton stands on her own merits. She's the only person capable of beating the GOP at their own game when it comes down to election time, when Jeb and his cronies are going to rig the election again. Plus, I think she's a very dynamic person with a lifetime of experience in the deepest trenches of liberal politics. Yet she is also capable of straddling the GOP/Dem line. Her career and alighnment speaks of his regard for her, and she will follow well in his footsteps. I've got no problem with that.

"Mrs. Clinton stands on her own merits. She's the only person capable of beating the GOP at their own game when it comes down to election time, when Jeb and his cronies are going to rig the election again."

That's an interesting statement - is she planning to rig the elections, too?

It is her capability of straddling the GOP/Dem line that scares me. So I will stick with Bernie Sanders. I think the GOP hates her too much for her to get much done except for watering down, a little, what the GOP wants.

C'mon, your thinking here is bizarre, and circular.

First you insist that Obama would never push bad policy. Then you use the fact that he's for the TPP as evidence that it is not bad policy.

are for it. Are you suggesting that if the Republicans opposed it, it would validate for you that it's good policy?

Are you suggesting that the JUST because Republicans like it, it must be bad?

Republicans stock in trade IS stock in trade. There is nothing wrong with supporting a global trading pact and initiatives, especially being finalized by like the smartest guy in the world, who has the capacity to act beneficially on behalf of the USA, its corporations AND in the interests of other people in other countries and their corporations, growth and interests.

Trying to demonize anyone for supporting this agreement makes no sense. My thinking is logical, global and visionary, and hardly circular. Of course TPP isn't bad policy, there's nothing wrong with it in concept, and its execution under this administration will only strengthen the USA and everyone else associated with it.

Also, there is a lot wrong with portions that have been leaked.

It sounds like you're just a Conservative when it comes to economics. I mean, "the Republicans stock in trade IS stock in trade"? If you think the Republicans are good on trade then I can see why you love Obama's trade deal.

word? And, as I asked someone else, this thing is greased and ready. Why care if some of us oppose it? Obama and the GOP, working together, will get what they want, no matter how much we protest. Personally, I have my list of Florida DINOs to never vote for or support. That's all I can do.

Are you also saying that the Democrats in Congress who voted against it are Tea Baggers, too? Although, come to think of it, I do believe I read somewhere that Pelosi was figuring out who could safely vote yes without worrying about their ass, er, seat, and who needed to vote no in order to appease their constituents. I have the DINOs in Florida figured out.

I am curious, though - why are you so doggedly determined to talk up the TPP and to denigrate those who are "agin" it? It is going to be greased into law, and Obama is not running again, so any dissatisfaction with him is meaningless, unless we were going to all be asked to chip in for a library or parting gift or something. Why bother putting so much lipstick on a pig? The corporations don't have wittle feelings to hurt; they could care less. And I have been assured that there are so few anti-TPP people that we are no real threat. And hey, once the TPP is revealed in all of its awful and unchangeable majesty, won't we see how fantastically good it is going to be for actual people? People who are not corporations? Do we dissenters have that much influence? And, if this is so secret, who are you to be telling us that it is going to be just swell? Do you worry that we are unhappy? And why are people in Europe just as angry about the TTIP? Are they Tea Baggers, too? Wow!

Because, you know, I sincerely doubt you have changed a single mind, or even caused a second of doubt. There is no reason to take your word for it.

us in with the GOP, I can throw you in with the Tbaggers who are against it like you.

Yes, some protesters in Europe are against it. Their governments aren't -- including Bernie Sander's Scandinavian countries -- because they realize it's important for their future in providing healthcare, welfare, education, jobs, etc., to the people who will riot in the future if that is impacted from lack of growth.

Don't tell me your feeling are hurt. And when a bill only has the enthusiastic and determined support of the GOP, the president, and some DINOs, then I classify the whole crowd as GOP. The Tea Baggers want entirely different things than the folks who are against the TPP. Your attempt to lump us all together is laughable.

So what do you like about the TPP? Sounds to me like blind faith is enough for you. That's not being economically or politically astute, that's exactly what is wrong with this country. We laughed at those who trusted BushCo no matter what.

Do yourself a favor and read about the TPP. And NAFTA. See how that worked out.

But no, you want to just close your eyes and believe... even when the TPP was written by corporate lawyers, is backed by the GOP, Obama won't tell us what's in it and Obama has gone against almost the entire Dem Party on this. Oh yeah, nothing to worry about here.

That kind of 'thinking' is what ruins a good democracy. Thanks a lot.

in globally fluid and accessible trade and commerce that NOW is the time to lay the foundation for important agreements that will affect generations to come.

In fact, I have long envisioned a North American Union, where the USA, Mexico and Canada form a union enabling the free movement of people and goods between the 3 countries. It will come, eventually, but probably not for another 20 years or so, but it will come. It's what the future looks like. Hemispheres will unite in the flow of commerce, trade and migration. It's just what the far future holds for us... and perhaps not even that far into the future. That's my vision for the future, for now, but it'll come up in the public eye in a few years, I'm sure. It's just a logical progression of global economics.

This President has that same type of long range vision; he sees what I see, but he is the one trusted with the power to shape such an important foundation. Just because the GOP grabbed for the gold ring doesn't mean the TPP is a bad thing, even a clock is right twice a day. Sure, their goal is to line their own pockets, but that won't happen anytime soon. Those dinosaurs will be long gone by the time the benefits of TPP become clear.

What benefits has our country seen from it?

document to learn from in terms of implementing broad pro-growth strategies that channel the benefits from trade into other parts of the economy, in particular, Mexico.

In terms of competition, well, in business, if you can't outfox the competition, then you fail. If anyone in the USA failed due to competition from Mexico, well, then maybe they weren't the pick of the litter to begin with. Sorry, but I am a heartless capitalist much as I love mom & pop shops. But even a mom & pop shop has to change, grow and adapt to thrive.

Canada has greatly benefited from NAFTA in terms of agricultural products from Mexico and in terms of doing business in the USA, etc.

I think this summary is good enough to explain the benefits of NAFTA.... http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepolicy/p/NAFTA_Advantage.htm

All that job loss from outsourcing is fine with you?

Also, you talk as if all the competition is fair out there when it's not. How is a mom and pop operation going to compete with a global corporation? You gave a lot of generalities but no real specifics, and certainly didn't mention any benefits to the US workers. That link is fluffy generalizations as well, and incorrect when it says there is job growth for all countries involved. We had job loss due to outsourcing to other countries for cheap labor.

about economic infrastructures on a global scale. Mom & Pop may be the bones of the small, family communities and provide niche services to few in the grand scale, and that's a good thing! I love artiisinal works and goods and absolutely support those businesses and entrepreneurship in local communities. But, NAFTA isn't about Mom & Pop, it's about global trade. NAFTA doesn't cause Walmart to move into small communities and wipe out Mom & Pop, they did that long before they went to Canada & Mexico. The difference is that now, those Made In The USA products are part of the Mexican & Canadian communities. (Just by example, I hate Walmart)

More jobs are outsourced to China than to Mexico or Canada so we can cross that alleged detriment off the list. And also keep in mind that opening up trade across the 3 nations wasn't 'just' about benefiting the USA, it was about benefiting Mexico & Canada and about creating bridges where there were once moats & chasms. I should remind you that it's the good capitalist that says 'what's in it for me'. It's leaders that can see that it's not always about us, but about how everyone benefits, like the whole taxes and social services crux that so many get upset about.

Key points to consider

>Roughly 14 percent of US exports go to Mexico -- more than go to Brazil, Russia, India, and China combined. Indeed, Mexico buys more U.S. goods than the rest of Latin America combined, and more than France, Germany, the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom combined. US based companies are producing those exports.

>Mexico buys more US goods than the rest of Latin America combined, and more than France, Germany, the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom combined. Clearly someone in the USA must be benefiting from this activity.

>Market openings created by NAFTA have generated more export-related jobs -- and opening up the field for more such jobs -- in the United States, which pay an average of 15 to 20 percent more than those focused purely on domestic production. Opportunities aren't about luck, it's about seeing and capitalizing on potential.

>Every day, nearly $2 billion in goods and services cross the United States’ northern border and roughly $1 billion worth cross its southern border. That's every day.... so someone, some US company somewhere is benefiting, whether it's the truck driver or the factory worker or the guy picking tomatoes.

>Small U.S. enterprises, lacking the global reach of major corporations, benefit in particular from trade with Mexico, thanks to NAFTA. Mexicans purchase about 11 percent of the exports of small and medium-size U.S. companies, which account for more than half of all job creation in the United States.

>In recent years as the Mexican economy has expanded and created more jobs -- although not in the scale predicted and hoped for -- both illegal and legal immigration from Mexico to the United States has plummeted and grows at a steadier, more economically wholesome rate, attracting more socially and "economically appealing" migrants rather than just the dregs of society. One should regard the fact that agricultural costs in the USA had to drop to compete with MX, making it more unappealing for migrants to travel so far for a low wage job. That impacts local governments in a good manner, lowering crime, homelessness and dependency on social services, such as were available to migrant workers.

>Of the nearly 16 million Mexican immigrants now legally living in the USA, nearly 50% of them have at least a HS degree. In the 2012 elections, up to 75% of the Hispanic voting population in some states cast their ballots for President Obama & Democrats. And these migrants are more than twice as likely to start up their own businesses as native born Americans.

I haven't even gotten into how much trade with Canada has benefited the USA... there's a wealth of information out there if you choose to have a look at it.

I like trade agreements and the time for putting them in place is now. And as I said, I trust this guy in the White House to make sure that those trade agreements will benefit everyone possible, in this country and in others. I like a person who has the vision to ensure that global change and precedence is guided properly down the right path, and I like knowing that it's in the hands of a trusted, ethical and worthy man like President Obama.

I can't imagine this agreement in better hands than anyone else on this planet. If you can suggest anyone else in the entire world in whose hands this agreement could be better honed and crafted at such a critical time, I will happily discuss this with you. I think it's incredibly valid to do this now, under this President, rather than throwing it all out the window, stalling and holding it up until Jeb Bush is in office. (heaven forbid) Would you trust this agreement in his hands? Or would you prefer that it be stalled out for another 10-15 years? Would you rather trust Mrs. Clinton to do this? These are the 3 choices since this bill is on the table right now.

Do you prefer President Obama handle this? Or Mrs. Clinton? Or Jeb Bush? Those are your options for at least the next 10 years.
I'm sticking with the sure thing, because this TPP is going to happen and it's happening now, whether we think we like it or not.

It's awfully easy to oppose something, but it takes a lot more balls to support something.

since that's not his type of policy making. He's not a Thatcher-type person unless something has changed dramatically. In the very least, in his hands as opposed to a potential president like Jeb Bush, we can be sure that he would protect the American people from such potentially harmful policies.

Meanwhile he says "fuck you" to what is supposed to be his own party.

Some people don't think TPP is the first, last and only issue we're facing as a country.

Really, tho, your point is taken. I think it's only the far, far fringe who even cares. To a whole lot of people, either gay or black, what happened yesterday was a pretty big deal.

But TPP. I know.

It wasn't just a hymn, either.

So.

Those dumb blacks. If only they were as smart as you.

Un-fucking-believable.

Sid

She like many others are incensed by Obama siding with the GOP to ram through TPP.

His dance performance with the repukes to ram through TPP makes any other perfomance he does fairly meaningless. No doubt he puts on a great show and kudos for his oration but to dismiss people angry about TPP as racists, is truly contemptible.

Sid

he's a smooth talker, he talks a good game, he's all talk.

But keep going for that anti-black crap cuz that's all you've got.

Sid

Sid

No. I don't think he did. Did he help? Sure. He appointed two justices - but more importantly, it was his Solicitor General, at his discretion, who argued against banning marriage equality in front of the Supreme Court.

Sid

negotiations need. Remember, he is fearless!

with visions of gloom and doom, armed to the teeth with group amnesia.

This is Obama's week...DU's regularly scheduled bashing will be suspended over the weekend, then Obama will announce a nuclear peace deal with Iran - next up on his Biggest Hits album, then the regularly scheduled programming can re-commence - we all good?

TPP? Take a Pissing Pass?

against his own base.

understand something about politics.

The the majority of the Congressional Democrats who switched their votes at the end did so to modify the package that was being passed in order to mitigate the damage.

The majority of the Democratic caucus in both Houses made it clear that they oppose the TPP.

The idea the Dems would ever stand in the way of the TPP fast track was political theater and nothing more. The idea they only passed it to put in protections against it is is such nonsense it is amazing anyone uttered it.

of the Congressional caucus publicly oppose the leader of their party?

Do you care to explain the 17 dimensional chess moves that led Obama to get into a nasty, protracted public spat with Elizabeth Warren just for the sake of "political theater"?

pretty simple really.

It is easy for him to give political cover for the remaining Dems that are. When push came to shove the votes were there werent they?

Not sure how long you have been paying attention but there are countless examples of votes where there were just enough dems to pass something while alowing the most vulnerable to vote against.

Politics is much more about appearance than reality. If you dont understand that yet you have a long way to go to get to understanding politics.

There was never any doubt this would be passed despite all the thearics.

to give the Democrats "cover" for anything in the first place?

is screaming "it's a steaming pile of shit!" despite not one of them having seen the final deal.
Sometimes you have to cater to the paranoid portions of your base despite their ignorance.

The idea the dems would be responsible for taking away the same power every president has had for decades preceding Obama is ridiculous and would have been reprehensible had they actually done it.

But look at what he got from it. He got the deal in the end, not that it was really ever in question, and the Dems with the largest constituency of "it's a steaming pile" get to stand up and say I tried to stop it!

So Obama who isn't up for re election gets to continue negotiating the deal without having it blow apart because of a congreess who cant vote on something up or down without playing stupid games, meanwhile it builds loyalty with people that think their congres critter stood up against the evil empire! Win win for him and the democrats in general.

Basic politics. Not really 12 dimensional it has been going on for years and years.

accommodate the President in any way for any reason, bending over backwards to help him? What other sane policies do they support at this point?

...and if the bill isn't really "secret" like the crazy Democratic base keeps asserting, then why the fuck won't the President disclose the details and extinguish all of the baseless criticism.

Can you point to a single negotiation that was done in the open? When the deal is finalized it will go for a vote preceeded by months of it being public. The same as has been done for countless negotiations from union negotiations to trade deals for decades and decades.

It is very difficult if not impossible to get any deal done if all interested parties are squaking the whole time the deal is being put together.

The president will publish the details as soon as the negotiations are finished. Why is that so difficult for so many to understand?

And after it is published there will be months for it to be debated before it is voted on.

We have a gajillion elected officials in place to perform these functions, that's why we have elections. If every detail of these negotiations is scrutinized by every person (who gives a crap) in the USA, would it ever get finished? Someone is always going to pitch a fit about something. The people of the USA aren't a committee. We created a government of elected officials to form those committees and make those decisions in the best interests of the people.

Legal agreements are crafted by the best legal minds each entity has to offer, and each point is negotiated by the entities, giving something here, taking something there. These are round table discussions and countless drafts of each and every point in the agreement, with incredible details even down to simple phrases and wording; with sensitive and highly complicated legal issues involving global economics, taxation, import/export fees, highly objective and critical intellectual property & patent issues that have to stand the test of time for decades to come. They're not talking about building a playground in the park. 90% of Americans would read one paragraph of these types of documents and get cross - eyed before finishing the first paragraph.

I said this a short while ago; The TPP is going to happen, it has to happen, in fact, and it would be insanely ridiculous to not put this into place. Would you rather have it's finer points decided by President Obama, Mrs. Clinton or Jeb Bush? Because if it doesn't happen now, under Obama, it's going to happen under one of those two people. And, perish the though, but what if Jebbie gets his guns out and steals this next election too? Do you really want HIM to be the big decider on the TPP?

I'm playing it safe and sticking with trusting this President.

He is working hard every day, trying to make a better world.

Equality! Hallelujah !

Rex http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6910730

Mahalo uthr~

Oh wait, I found it.

Some people simply cannot give the man credit where due, but they're more than happy to stomp on him with both feet when things don't go their way.


Curious.

a dead stinking fish. Even then I'd be likely to start chortling about the benefits of fish oil or something.