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Wed Jun 24, 2015, 12:47 PM

Do you support renaming roads/schools/bridges to eliminate references to Confederate Leaders?

Another question would be would you support federal action on this matter, or think it should be left up to the states/communities involved?

Bryant
34 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
Completely support
21 (62%)
Somewhat support
3 (9%)
In the middle
2 (6%)
Somewhat oppose
0 (0%)
Completely oppose
2 (6%)
I support renaming this poll to "The Bullshit Poll"
6 (18%)
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Reply Do you support renaming roads/schools/bridges to eliminate references to Confederate Leaders? (Original post)
el_bryanto Jun 2015 OP
randys1 Jun 2015 #1
el_bryanto Jun 2015 #4
randys1 Jun 2015 #6
el_bryanto Jun 2015 #8
randys1 Jun 2015 #9
randys1 Jun 2015 #10
el_bryanto Jun 2015 #20
DashOneBravo Jun 2015 #24
ncjustice80 Jun 2015 #30
TreasonousBastard Jun 2015 #2
edhopper Jun 2015 #3
TreasonousBastard Jun 2015 #13
edhopper Jun 2015 #16
Johonny Jun 2015 #21
edhopper Jun 2015 #22
TreasonousBastard Jun 2015 #32
ncjustice80 Jun 2015 #31
TreasonousBastard Jun 2015 #33
ncjustice80 Jun 2015 #38
Buns_of_Fire Jun 2015 #5
virgogal Jun 2015 #7
DashOneBravo Jun 2015 #11
immoderate Jun 2015 #12
GoneOffShore Jun 2015 #14
Recursion Jun 2015 #15
underthematrix Jun 2015 #17
Nye Bevan Jun 2015 #18
Adrahil Jun 2015 #19
KamaAina Jun 2015 #23
LuvNewcastle Jun 2015 #25
Cleita Jun 2015 #26
deathrind Jun 2015 #27
Igel Jun 2015 #28
former9thward Jun 2015 #29
Major Nikon Jun 2015 #34
former9thward Jun 2015 #35
Major Nikon Jun 2015 #36
Bigmack Jun 2015 #37

Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 12:51 PM

1. I support removing their names from everything other than a brief historical

chapter in our history books, showing the concentration camps they ran, aka plantations.

I also think that naming anything after that ridiculous man Ronald Reagan, is equally distasteful.

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Response to randys1 (Reply #1)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 12:58 PM

4. How do you think this should be accomplished? nt

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #4)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 01:01 PM

6. Any entity which receives money from the Federal government can be forced

not to use these names, somehow.

Not sure how, but it could be done without violating their rights, but I am not a lawyer.

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Response to randys1 (Reply #6)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 01:03 PM

8. That's true - if it's part of the federal highway system

it can be changed automatically; state roads and schools could be required to change or lose federal money. There's no question that the Federal Government could bring pressure on this issue and force a change.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #8)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 01:06 PM

9. I am almost as mad when I see something named after that complete disaster, Reagan

When I think of the damage he did to this country, it enrages me.

But what makes me angrier is middle class and poor people worship him, even though he did more harm to them than they can ever imagine.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #8)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 01:07 PM

10. Why would you be "in the middle" on this issue? Seems pretty straight forward to me

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Response to randys1 (Reply #10)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 02:26 PM

20. It would depend on how it was done

I am very upset at neo-confederates and the fact that history is often taught so as to make them seem partially in the right. I don't know what would have happened if Lincoln had survived; what I do know is we lurched from Johnsons mollycoddling of the south to the Republican congress's more firm stance to pretty much forgetting about the whole thing. In particular the fact that we didn't preserve Black Civil Rights in the South is one of our national cancers.

That said, a blanket change imposed by the federal government would cost a lot of political capital, and I'm not sure it would have the desired effect. Republicans are never going to support such a program, and the South, by and large, isn't going to either. My guess is that even many Liberal Southerners would resent that action. People largely remember History the way they want to remember it, unfortunately. If we are going to spend a lot of political capital fighting and uphill battle, I'd rather we threw our efforts into reforming our law enforcement mechanisms, weeding out the murderous racism that is going on right now.

Turning back to changing the names of schools and the like, the best approach, in my mind, would be to pick one particular Confederate officer who was active in the Klan following the Civil War or who was guilty of killing blacks during the war and underline what he did; and ask why we celebrate this person. That could lead to a teachable moment, where we could discuss how all of the Confederates were fighting for the right to own slaves (regardless of what they want to pretend the civil war was really about).

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #20)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 05:14 PM

24. How about Nathan Bedford Forrest?

There is a park named after him. I think it would be kinda hard for Repub to support the founder of the Klan.



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Response to randys1 (Reply #6)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 09:56 PM

30. Withhold Federal funding. Many states in the South depend on the Feds for highway funds.

Just tell them that if ANY public structure, park, or road contains the name of a confederate, than all funds will be withheld.

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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 12:52 PM

2. Depends who we're talking about....

most of them should go, then there's Lee and maybe a few others.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #2)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 12:54 PM

3. Robert E Lee

is responsible for more American war dead than any man in history.

You think that should be honored?

He chose his State over the Country he swore to defend. He was still a traitor.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #3)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 01:25 PM

13. Perhaps, but then we're stuck at...

the question of how to define a person-- by the best part of his life, the worst part of his life, or trying to combine the two.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #13)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 01:39 PM

16. Do you think

any of the monuments to him are for something besides leading the confederate army?

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Response to edhopper (Reply #16)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:01 PM

21. Most post war era were put up as a protest against civil rights and have nothing to do with the war

Don't you think? If the soldiers that fought in the war put one up in memory of the war, then I'm not sure I care. Anymore than if I care if Iraq war veterans or Vietnam war veterans put up monuments in memory. I think soldiers that survived the war get more leeway from people.

But let's be honest. Most flags waving today, and monuments weren't put up by the people that fought that war. They were put up in the 50s and 60s as a direct response to the civil rights movement. That monument in a civil war cemetery isn't what we're talking about. So in the end, yes, many of these were put up not because Lee lead the confederate army for part of the war, but because during the civil rights movement they wanted something tangibly yet difficult to attack politically to rally around. It is unclear if Lee would even have wanted all these monuments or the stupid flags of that lost war to fly.

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Response to Johonny (Reply #21)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:13 PM

22. That is true

and I have no problem with monuments in CW cemeteries.
It's the public monuments to honor the cause of the war I have trouble with.

But Stone Mountain was started a century ago, and for the reasons you cite.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #16)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 11:12 PM

32. Not in the least, but...

just what criteria do we use when we start tearing down monuments?

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #13)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 09:57 PM

31. Worst part of his life. The only part that matters. n/t

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Response to ncjustice80 (Reply #31)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 11:14 PM

33. He didn't start the war.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #33)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 10:35 AM

38. He was a general for the South though.

Lee, and every other confed officer of the rank Colonel and higher, should have been tried and hanged.

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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 12:58 PM

5. If the alternative is naming something else after St. Reagan, it's a tough call. nt

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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 01:02 PM

7. I'm neutral. This is no more offensive to me than naming streets and cities after saints. I don't

believe in saints.

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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 01:09 PM

11. Some

I'd like to see all the U.S. Army posts renamed.

I don't know about the others because some of the local economy is based off tourism from the battlefields. I'm undecided on that.

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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 01:16 PM

12. Nah! Street names are ways to locate things.

 

I don't care much for Civil War generals, but there are lots of namings I could object to. Do you know how many places are named after rat fucker Reagan?? I know lots of streets are named after people, and that's all I know about them, their claim to fame, or their deeds. Of course, there should be exceptions for people who did really bad shit.

In Far Rockaway, I grew up at the end of Mott (who?) Avenue. It ended at Reynolds (who?) Channel, just a couple of miles from Jones (who?) Beach.

I mean, aren't all soldiers criminals to somebody?

--imm

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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 01:28 PM

14. Total Federal action.

Along with plastering any statues and historical markers with the word Traitor.

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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 01:36 PM

15. Sure, I guess

I think that's less important than getting the flags down.

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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 02:02 PM

17. The confederacy was an armed violent rebellion against

the United States of America. The terrorists who led the rebellion were not leaders. They were seditionists. So yes, remove them from places of honor. Do we have a statue of white supemacist and domestic terrorist Timothy McVeigh on any public land?

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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 02:05 PM

18. What about all the stuff named after an Exalted Cyclops in the Ku Klux Klan?

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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 02:20 PM

19. How about U.S. military installations named after Confederate military leaders?

Fort Lee, Fort Pickett, Camp Beauregard, Fort Benning, Fort A.P. Hill (I'[m willing to give this one a pass, since he re-embraced the Union after the war, actually served in Federal government, and supported increased civil rights for blacks), Fort Bragg, Fort Gordon, Fort Lee, Fort Polk, Fort Rucker.

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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:25 PM

23. Activists in NOLA have dealt with the existence of Jefferson Davis Parkway

 

by unofficially renaming it "Angela Davis Parkway".

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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 06:09 PM

25. I'm in the middle here.

It would be nice if we could snap our fingers and do that, but it would be a painstaking task here in the South.

There are many places that might be named for Confederates or might not be -- people aren't sure about some places. And even if you changed a name, businesses would have to get new stationery and postal addresses would have to be updated. In an old southern town, you might have a lot of changes, and the confusion would be awful.

I see nothing wrong with changing some names, but we shouldn't do all of them just because they have a connection to the Confederate side in the Civil War. We have bigger priorities and enough headaches already.

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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 06:16 PM

26. Yes, unless there is a good historic significance and I'm also in favor of renaming everything that

was named for Reagan or Bush, two treasonous Presidents who created the situation of our national decline that we are living through today. We should not honor traitors, period.

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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 06:23 PM

27. No.

Renaming things is not the answer. We can rename these places and pretend that these things did not happen but that does nothing to move the issue forward. In fact it would only do the opposite.

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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 06:46 PM

28. There's little outrage about most of them.

Simply because nobody cares about the names unless somebody intentionally drags the names out and teaches about them for the purpose of creating offense and ill-will. There's enough crap without manufacturing it.

I grew up in a little berg in Maryland with, of course, street names. Delmar. Ritchie. McComas. Wells. Ross. Armistead. Salisbury.

We knew who McComas and Wells were because we were told. They were those who fired some of the first shots in the Battle of North Point, part of the Battle of Baltimore. They were marksmen, and killed presumably having shot at the British commander leading his forces to take Baltimore. That's the tradition.

Delmar, Ritchie, Armistead, Salisbury were mysteries and, you know, nobody cared. I was fuzzy on who Ross was. So just today I dug into those names. Armistead was a commander in the war of 1812 around Baltimore, so that 1812 theme continued. Ross was the British commander. Yup, the street three blocks away was named for the British invader who would have captured Baltimore and then Fort McHenry from the rear. At least he was killed by the teenage boys, Wells and McComas.

That left Delmar, Ritchie, Salisbury. Turns out these three names have something in common. In the early-mid 1930s there was a movement to form a separate all-white state of Delmarva, with a bit of a riot in 1933 called the Battle of Salisbury (the biggest city in erstwhile Delmarva). Guess who was governor in 1933? Yup: Ritchie.

So this nice little area had streets named after the defenders of Baltimore, patriots--except for Ross, the evil dead Brit. But the street names came with a tip of the hat to a bit of Maryland overtly racist sedition which, oddly, I'd never heard of and can't quite find the interest to be offended at. (The neighborhood was platted and the first houses built in the mid '30s, when the Delmarva thing was current events. It was originally deed restricted but then again, what wasn't in the '30s?)

On the other hand, I'd never know some of that history without having the street names to hang it on. I mean, I went to Stricker High School, a pointless name if ever there was one. Stricker was another commander--this one on the American side--during the Battle of North Point.

What needs to be renamed to placate delicate sensibilities and remove all traces of these horrible events from the minds of young innocents? The references to Delmar(va) and the (battle of) Salisbury? Can we keep Ritchie? Does Ross, the British invader, have to go? Or is the idea of the war of 1812 with a current close ally enough to keep dead-guy Ross--or maybe make even Wells and McComas too inconvenient? Or is the very idea of a war with people being killed in what's now the junior high football field and troops marching through where my elementary school play ground was simply too much? Might have nightmares of nasty red coats.

It costs money to rename things,and most people don't think of those names as "honoring" anybody, even if they know who the honorees are.

Save the money.

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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 06:51 PM

29. This gets ridiculous.

How about Joan Baez's song "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down"? A song which made Baez a boatload of money and was completely sympathetic to the Confederate cause. Should she donate the money and take the rights to the song off of music sites? Absurd stuff.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #29)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 12:02 AM

34. The song wasn't completely sympathetic to the Confederate cause

The song was completely sympathetic to the suffering of people in the South as a result of the war, which is not the same thing. The song in no way glorifies the Confederate cause in the way naming public buildings and rights of way after traitors.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #34)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 12:09 AM

35. I guess you don't know the lyrics.

Or maybe you do and want to willfully ignore.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #35)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:01 AM

36. You stole my line!

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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:24 AM

37. Why is there a "Jefferson Davis Memorial Hiway" ...

 

...in Washington State? Named it thus in 1939.

Why don't they at least keep that shit in the South?

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