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Tue Jun 23, 2015, 05:04 PM

 

Congress is about to pass a bill they KNOW will cost American jobs. Obama is for this loss of jobs,

as is Hillary.

Yet, all of their rhetoric is about creating jobs.

Ugly.

115 replies, 6262 views

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Reply Congress is about to pass a bill they KNOW will cost American jobs. Obama is for this loss of jobs, (Original post)
grahamhgreen Jun 2015 OP
TheNutcracker Jun 2015 #1
Le Taz Hot Jun 2015 #22
LuvNewcastle Jun 2015 #36
onecaliberal Jun 2015 #102
Le Taz Hot Jun 2015 #106
onecaliberal Jun 2015 #108
Le Taz Hot Jun 2015 #110
onecaliberal Jun 2015 #111
Le Taz Hot Jun 2015 #112
nc4bo Jun 2015 #2
HooptieWagon Jun 2015 #3
Stryder Jun 2015 #4
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #6
hifiguy Jun 2015 #61
AllTooEasy Jun 2015 #8
nc4bo Jun 2015 #10
abelenkpe Jun 2015 #14
Punx Jun 2015 #25
Half-Century Man Jun 2015 #19
LuvNewcastle Jun 2015 #37
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #70
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #71
Stryder Jun 2015 #72
AgingAmerican Jun 2015 #5
grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #9
hifiguy Jun 2015 #62
grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #69
kath Jun 2015 #7
Auggie Jun 2015 #11
avebury Jun 2015 #88
Octafish Jun 2015 #12
hifiguy Jun 2015 #65
historylovr Jun 2015 #105
DCBob Jun 2015 #13
Splatterpunk Jun 2015 #15
grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #16
DCBob Jun 2015 #21
Punx Jun 2015 #26
azmom Jun 2015 #38
BuelahWitch Jun 2015 #100
grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #45
Renew Deal Jun 2015 #30
Recursion Jun 2015 #43
PowerToThePeople Jun 2015 #53
Recursion Jun 2015 #54
truebrit71 Jun 2015 #82
Recursion Jun 2015 #86
grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #73
Recursion Jun 2015 #74
grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #75
Recursion Jun 2015 #85
HughBeaumont Jun 2015 #96
edhopper Jun 2015 #17
onecaliberal Jun 2015 #24
Renew Deal Jun 2015 #29
0rganism Jun 2015 #35
mythology Jun 2015 #42
n2doc Jun 2015 #18
Unknown Beatle Jun 2015 #20
underthematrix Jun 2015 #27
onecaliberal Jun 2015 #23
Renew Deal Jun 2015 #28
Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2015 #32
Kermitt Gribble Jun 2015 #40
grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #50
Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2015 #52
TheKentuckian Jun 2015 #57
hifiguy Jun 2015 #67
Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2015 #113
TheKentuckian Jun 2015 #114
Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2015 #115
peacebird Jun 2015 #84
Recursion Jun 2015 #87
Recursion Jun 2015 #41
grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #48
Recursion Jun 2015 #55
truebrit71 Jun 2015 #81
Recursion Jun 2015 #89
truebrit71 Jun 2015 #107
Recursion Jun 2015 #109
treestar Jun 2015 #77
PowerToThePeople Jun 2015 #31
deutsey Jun 2015 #39
99Forever Jun 2015 #33
Prism Jun 2015 #34
Recursion Jun 2015 #44
grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #46
Recursion Jun 2015 #56
questionseverything Jun 2015 #59
Rex Jun 2015 #63
Elwood P Dowd Jun 2015 #66
Recursion Jun 2015 #68
Elwood P Dowd Jun 2015 #64
truebrit71 Jun 2015 #83
treestar Jun 2015 #79
HughBeaumont Jun 2015 #97
Recursion Jun 2015 #98
HughBeaumont Jun 2015 #104
pnwmom Jun 2015 #47
grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #49
pnwmom Jun 2015 #51
Enthusiast Jun 2015 #58
hifiguy Jun 2015 #60
treestar Jun 2015 #76
grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #80
Recursion Jun 2015 #90
pampango Jun 2015 #92
grahamhgreen Jun 2015 #94
pampango Jun 2015 #101
randome Jun 2015 #78
RiverLover Jun 2015 #91
randome Jun 2015 #93
RiverLover Jun 2015 #95
Recursion Jun 2015 #99
fredamae Jun 2015 #103

Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 05:18 PM

1. The people finally have a real choice in Bernie Sanders this time!

 

The only talking point should be that voters need to change their party to vote for Bernie in the primary if they are not registered as a democrat.

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Response to TheNutcracker (Reply #1)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:54 PM

22. Not all states have closed primaries.

California is one of those. I think we have to be VERY VERY careful about demanding that people swear fealty to some obsolete sell-out political party before they can vote for Bernie. People need to check their own states and know whether they have open or closed primaries. Closed primaries, yes, you have to register as a Democrat to vote for him. Open primaries, nope.

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #22)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:58 PM

36. All of us need to check out the laws

in our respective states so that we can advise others on voting in the primaries. Everyone in my state is an independent, basically, and we can vote in the primary of our choice. The only requirement is that if you vote in the Democratic primary, for instance, you can only vote in the Democratic runoff. So really, all we have to do here is make sure people are registered, which is a hard enough task in itself.

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #22)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:54 AM

102. In California, you have to be a registered Democrat or

DS (decline to state) to vote for Bernie. And yes laws are different in each state. The sanders campaign is all over that already.

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #102)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 10:12 AM

106. Actually, "Decline to State"

was changed to "No Party Affiliation" a while back. The CDP rules say that a person can vote in the Democratic Primary if they are a registered Democrat or they are registered as NPA. This is an important point because I think Bernie has enormous crossover appeal and we need to give those people who will not register as a Democrat but will re-register as NPA a way to vote for Bernie in the California primary. Crossover voters are a critical component in Bernie winning the nomination. Thankfully, the CDP kept that avenue open.

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #106)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 10:24 AM

108. My registration is Decline to State and has not been changed to

"NPA".

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #108)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 10:58 AM

110. When registering to vote,

under the section titled "Political Party Preference" there are two choices: register with a particular political party or the second option: "No, I do not want to disclose a political party preference." * (If you select no, you may not be able to vote for some parties' candidates at a primary election for the U.S. president or party committee.)

The Decline to State is an older designation and, to my understanding, the state can't change it just because it has undergone a name change, you would have to do that. It doesn't matter as it is effectively the same thing, i.e., you've not signed on with any established political party. When you register now and choose the second option, you are automatically placed in the NPA category.

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #110)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 11:08 AM

111. I've been a registered Democrat my entire life until

6 months ago. I was an elected member of the Democratic Central Committee in my county for 4 years. I have participated in registration drives, phone banks, and driving voters to polls. Corporate money has infiltrated the party at every level. I can no longer justify any support for the party's democracy killing endeavors.

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #111)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 11:13 AM

112. After 30 plus years as a registered Democrat

I switched out in 2004 after I saw what they did to Dean. I was an e-Board member for the CDP at the time. I've seen what the Big Guns can do and all the crap you see on this board now doesn't hold a candle to what they're going to throw at him. We have to be ready with millions of people ready to recruit, GOTV and put feet on the ground.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 05:22 PM

2. Complicated chess moves. I believe that's what it's called with a side order of kabuki..

I remember my Mom being a ILGWU member and the valient effort this union did to protest NAFTA and the predictions of job loss. I remember NAFTA being a runaway freight train and it was.

http://ilgwu.ilr.cornell.edu/history/riseOfImports.html

The union was right, so was Mom.

I fear she would be right about TPP also.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 05:59 PM

3. The Koch bros funded the DLC for a reason.

 

And gullible Democratic voters elected the gang of 13. Time to clean the scum out of the Party. Start by supporting Bernie.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 06:06 PM

4. Yah

"We'll see the real Obama once he doesn't have to worry about re election."

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Response to Stryder (Reply #4)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 06:25 PM

6. And we did.... nt

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #6)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:18 PM

61. We sure as hell did.

 

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Response to Stryder (Reply #4)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:11 PM

8. BULLSHIT! House DEMS(Pelosi leading them) voted down TAA


...and killed any support for workers displaced by TPP. Obama wanted TAA, in other words NO LOSS OF JOBS.

...but House Dems, led by Pelosi, voted it down. That's a fact. It was a gross miscalculation. Did they forget that Repukes ran he Senates?!

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Response to AllTooEasy (Reply #8)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:17 PM

10. It was also argued that older workers would be affected the most. Provide training for 40+ year old

Workers to re-enter the workforce to compete with 20-somethings?

Good luck with that.

I just don't see that as being realistic.

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Response to nc4bo (Reply #10)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:39 PM

14. It isn't. TAA is a joke

When my former employer went under and much of the VFX work in Los Angeles was offshored a few years ago many workers from DD and R&H and others were notified that they qualified for TAA. It was a pittance, difficult to get and it wouldn't train them for a job that came close to providing the same sort of salary. Most just left the country to chase their jobs overseas. Or went into teaching....again for much less money. Older workers definitely had a harder time. All that experience and education. It was sad.

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Response to abelenkpe (Reply #14)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:00 PM

25. Your Description

Exactly describes what I have seen first hand here in Oregon, especially for older workers.

Such a waste.

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Response to AllTooEasy (Reply #8)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:49 PM

19. I've been on the TAA.

Last edited Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:14 PM - Edit history (1)

I know lots of people who have completed TAA training. Got their welding certificates, diplomas in automation, nursing certificates, AAS's (I'm one), Bachelors degrees, Masters Degrees, became bondable electricians, bondable plumbers, factory certifications in the automotive, cycling, and marine trades, EMTS, Paramedics, and graphic designers. And still can't find a job.

Some of us were over forty by the time we completed training. Some of us trained for already saturated job markets. Most of us burned up what little saving we had trying to keep our families inside while we worked our asses off to finish school as fast as possible. Half or better of us took on greater student debt at the encouragement of school recruiters. More than a few of us had to drop out of school and accept a job paying a fraction of what we made on the job that immigrated to distant shores, so our families could eat. The ones who receive the greatest benefit from the TAA is the for profit higher education industry, not the displaced workers.

It doesn't matter how much training you have if the jobs are gone.

The House Democrats voted down taking money from Medicare to pay for what is a glorified stroke job in education. TAA allows TPTB to shift people who would show up on unemployment rolls to the education in progress category. When they graduate and can't find a job that they trained for, they have used up their unemployment periods; they don't show up in unemployment documents.

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Response to Half-Century Man (Reply #19)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 09:12 PM

37. Thanks for the explanation.

I wondered what the goal was with that bill, besides an opportunity to raid Medicare. Now I know. It's a shame how little Americans know about the machinations of this government we have. The press is useless at best, but usually they're just plain deceptive.

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Response to Half-Century Man (Reply #19)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 07:40 PM

70. Thank you.

I learned something new and infuriating today.

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Response to Half-Century Man (Reply #19)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 07:52 PM

71. Might you consider making this an OP?

I still see a lot of people bemoaning the loss of TAA.

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Response to AllTooEasy (Reply #8)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 10:43 PM

72. TAA. It was weak tea at best.

Offer them a crumb for your loaf.
(Or the whole heard of USDA prime in this case.)

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 06:12 PM

5. He wants to build a legacy as the 'post partisan president'

 

Thus far he has failed, despite giving away the farm to the GOP in his grand bargains for nothing in return.

Maybe THIS will get him the recognition from the GOP that he craves!! NOT... When the poor and middle class start going down the drain because of this FASCIST deal, they will blame him for that too.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #5)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:11 PM

9. Saddest thing is that they laugh at him, while he thinks they respect him:(

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #9)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:21 PM

62. He will laugh at them as he rides down the Yellow Brick Road of post-presidential riches.

 

Don't think he hasn't noticed how lavishly rewarded the Clintons have been over the last 15 years. TPTB got the Telecom Act, NAFTA, and "banking reform" out of the Clintons. A couple of hundred million is a small price to pay for the trillions those gave the tenth-percenters and hundredth-percenters.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #62)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:56 PM

69. They may give him money, but they will never give him respect.

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 06:33 PM

7. yep. They're such disgusting corporatist liars.

Ain't Government of the Corporations, by the Corporations, and for the Corporations just fanfreakintastic?

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:22 PM

11. Obama's early '07 campaign rhetoric included "Corporations have too much power." Look what happened.

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Response to Auggie (Reply #11)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:41 AM

88. "Corporations have too much power."

And he has proved that they continue to have too much power.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:24 PM

12. I think I'm noticing a pattern, here.

The money is good.

"One of the things that is interesting about reading conspiracy theory is that much of what folks think is conspiracy is really many people acting in concert to make or protect their money." - Catherine Austin Fitts


A big shot in Poppy's crew, Fitts got fed up with the corruption at the highest levels of government, business and finance. She's doing all she can to document corruption on Wall Street and Washington and helping those who give a damn do something about it. Her Narcodollars for Beginners deserves a Pulitzer.

Integrity is an alien concept to the plutocrat. That's why they make and sign the laws they do. Ask Phil Gramm and his colleague at Swiss bank UBS, William J. Clinton.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #12)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:29 PM

65. The plutocracy are Ferengi and live by the Ferengi rules of Acquisition.

 

A sample:

Once you have their money ... never give it back.
Never pay more for an acquisition than you have to.
Never allow family to stand in the way of opportunity.
A man is only worth the sum of his possessions.
Keep your ears open.
Small print leads to large risk.
Opportunity plus instinct equals profit.
Greed is eternal.
Anything worth doing is worth doing for money.
A deal is a deal ... until a better one comes along.
A contract is a contract is a contract (but only between Ferengi).
A Ferengi without profit is no Ferengi at all.
Satisfaction is not guaranteed.
Never place friendship above profit.
A wise man can hear profit in the wind.
Nothing is more important than your health--except for your money.
There's nothing more dangerous than an honest businessman.
Never make fun of a Ferengi's mother ... insult something he cares about instead.
It never hurts to suck up to the boss.
War is good for business.
Peace is good for business.
Profit is its own reward.

More at http://www.sjtrek.com/trek/rules/

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #65)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:58 AM

105. Spot on.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:24 PM

13. Sure, it will cost some jobs, but overall I believe the good outweighs the bad.

The main benefit I see is giving us better foothold in Asia and balancing off Chinese aggression there. Furthermore, I suspect the effect on jobs won't be near as bad as some are fearing. Technology is already dramatically changing the jobs landscape regardless of what TPP does or doesn't do. That is biggest factor we need to deal with... imo.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #13)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:42 PM

15. That and a dollar will buy you a nice shiny pile of nothing....

 

That's what TPP is about.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #13)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:46 PM

16. how do people without jobs feed their families?

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #16)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:51 PM

21. Jobs have been coming and going quickly for past 30 years.

What did people do then? This is no different. I do think TAA will help. That needs to pass.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:04 PM

26. Mostly going

Since the Reagan years.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 10:12 PM

38. Living on borrowed money, that's what.

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Response to azmom (Reply #38)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:49 AM

100. Yep

Credit cards, second mortgages, student loans...

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Response to DCBob (Reply #21)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 04:27 AM

45. What will the people do who lose their health care benefits if TAA passes?

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #16)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:39 PM

30. That's irrelevant to the discussion.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #16)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:14 PM

43. The jobs go with or without the TPP

The TPP keeps them out of China and India

I don't get why people have such a hard time with this concept. The jobs are going away, period, and new jobs are coming. Just like has happened for the past 20 years.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #43)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 05:42 AM

53. The only new job comming is dieing.

 

There are no new jobs. Trust me, I have been looking for several years. It is already very bad. How much worse does it get before a mass uprising and anarchy? I do not know, but I do feel it is close at hand now.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #53)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 07:28 AM

54. Unemployment is 5.2, discouraged workers is 0.5

I'm sorry for what you're going through but very few Americans share that experience .

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Response to Recursion (Reply #54)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:04 AM

82. That is complete bullshit....

 

...

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #82)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:39 AM

86. Do you think BLS is just making that up? (nt)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #43)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 10:44 PM

73. No way to create jobs in America? Really? No way. Jobs are leaving, get over it? Who RU voting for?

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #73)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 02:55 AM

74. Of course jobs are being created in America

What a silly thing to ask.

Consumer manufacturing jobs, however, aren't coming back, and the ones we still have will for the most part be leaving

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Response to Recursion (Reply #74)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 07:45 AM

75. Why are they leaving?

 

Why stop with consumer manufacturing? Why not outsource all our jobs?

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #75)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:34 AM

85. Well the robots will eventually take all of our jobs

Right now light manufacturing is just so much more expensive here that nobody wants to run what's essentially a charity to employ Americans doing it, particularly given our low unemployment rate.

But, robots and all, it will surprise me if more than 25% of Americans have what we would today call a "job" in 20 years.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #16)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:29 AM

96. Or, for long term outlook, BUY things?

The Creative Destruction parrots seem to have no answer for that.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:47 PM

17. Asw I said in another thread

If the TPP is so good for American workers and jobs, why do they need a bill to help those displaced by it?
Sounds like the TPP guarantees job loss.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #17)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:56 PM

24. Because they KNOW there will be jobs lost. Beyond that they are counting on wage depression.

Who here with half a brain thinks we can compete with wages of countries paying 3 bucks a day.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #17)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:37 PM

29. The way I understand it is TAA is coincidental.

It's a relic that was latched on to entice Democrats.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #17)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:46 PM

35. If the TPP is so good for American workers and jobs...

... why are its contents a closely guarded secret?

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Response to edhopper (Reply #17)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:09 PM

42. Because overall good in the long term doesn't mean good for everybody in the short term

 

The invention of the computer put a lot of people out of work initially, but overall has been an incredible boon to humanity.

The ability to grow food via agriculture meant we could stop following food, settle down and eventually start to create things like pottery, metalworks and textiles. Fairly important to the development of human society, but probably not great for the guy who was chief hunter.

Or to put it another way, I recently had a major knee surgery that was technically elective. It has made my life suck for the last 6 months and will continue to make my life suck for another year or so before my recovery officially finishes. But in theory, I will have a better functioning knee after that. I took a short term significant loss to realize a long term gain that should prove more significant. That doesn't make me feel a lot better when I watch my friends get to do things I'm physically banned from doing, but eventually that will change and I'll be back doing the things I want. The TAA, in theory, is like the PT rehab work I have to do. It sucks, it has some significant challenges, but on average is better than not doing it.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:47 PM

18. Well it isn't like he hasn't done it before

The Korean trade pact cost tens of thousands of jobs.
http://www.citizen.org/Page.aspx?pid=3595

He's Just like Bill Clinton.

He has joined the class of folks who don't care very much about the losers in the great economic game. He's a winner!

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:49 PM

20. Obama doesn't give a shit about the American people,

he's set for life. He and Dimon are going to be playing gulf in the near future laughing about what suckers we were to believe that Obama was for us peons.

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Response to Unknown Beatle (Reply #20)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:23 PM

27. what a bizarre statement. oh rightwe are

in the world of "either or"

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 07:55 PM

23. phucking liars.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:33 PM

28. Is there any neutral documentation on job losses?

How do you know it will cost Americans jobs?

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #28)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:40 PM

32. They don't. They just see Obama and assume that it's bad. Question: Do people honestly believe that

 

Obama doesn't care about Americans losing jobs? Please be honest.

I don't think so. I simply do not believe that he is an evil man. I think he knows more about policy than many of us who haven't even read the policy. They just hear 'free trade' and automatically assume that it is bad.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #32)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 10:52 PM

40. Do people honestly believe that republicans

care about Americans losing jobs? Because Obama is on the republicans side in this fight.

Sorry, I'll stand with Labor, Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. You can stand with Obama, Boehner, McConnell and Paul Ryan.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #32)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 04:38 AM

50. Can we agree he is willing to sacrifice American jobs to pass the TPP?

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #50)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 05:32 AM

52. No. We cannot agree. I don't agree. I don't believe that he's a dumb or evil man who

 

doesn't care about people. There is nothing in his record, nor evidence of anything he's ever done in his life that proves that. Not for me.

So, no. We don't agree.

And why would he want that legacy? Doesn't make sense to me. Why would he want to be known as a president who deliberately did things to hurt American people?

AND...at the very least, let's assume that politics matters to him. Why would he hurt the chances for the Democratic nominee by deliberately doing something that could hurt that person? Doesn't make sense.

Sorry. I don't believe that.

I'm going to wait and see what happens.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #52)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 08:26 AM

57. See Bill Clinton. Hell, even see James Earl Carter.

Maybe decent and even very good people just believe wrong headed bullshit that is disastrous.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #57)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:34 PM

67. Carter was misguided in falling for the deregulation gospel

 

and in his chilliness to unions.

Clinton knew EXACTLY what he was doing and what the results would be with NAFTA, the Telecom Act and banking reform. He regrets nothing and is proud of all of it. He just didn't give a shit.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #57)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 06:12 PM

113. Perhaps. And I STILL blame Clinton for the jobs mess we're in. However, I have faith in this preside

 

Why? How many times have we been proven wrong? (i.e., "Obamacare"

I'm going to take my chances with this president's decision. I think he's a brilliant man and I DO NOT at all believe--and will NEVER believe--that he would deliberately do anything to harm the American worker.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #113)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:29 PM

114. Proven wrong? Like once that his guy would come out for net neutrality

Being wrong is not always or perhaps even usually about malice but that doesn't make it cool or somehow any more acceptable.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #114)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 10:07 PM

115. We'll see. I'm not ready to throw in the towel.

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #50)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:20 AM

84. I believe Elizabeth Warren in this battle, and Bernie Sanders. Both were vehemently opposed, as

were unions.
Sorry, all the R's love it. I have seen the effects of H1B, most favored nation for China and Nafta. Good solid middle class jobs lost, low paying service sector jobs - usually part time - increased.

I believe Obama thinks this will have more benefits than costs, but I don't think he is correct. As stated, I trust Elizabeth Warren over Obama on this.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #50)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:41 AM

87. No, like most of the party he thinks this will cause a net jobs gain like NAFTA did

You disagree; I get that. But it's not that difficult to take his own words about why he's doing it at face value.

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #28)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:07 PM

41. They don't. They fixate on a number someone made up and ignore job gains

At this point a large portion of DU have managed to convince themselves that the late 1990s were a bad time for American workers.

This will continue to be the rallying cry until the next shiny appears.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #41)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 04:32 AM

48. We've lost 60,000 factories - FACTORIES - since the last costly trade deal. thats a lot of jobs

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #48)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 07:32 AM

55. We've gained about 50 million net jobs since it too

That's why a higher percentage of working age ericans have jobs today than in 1993.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #55)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:03 AM

81. Low paying jobs....

 

... not the same thing....

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #81)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:42 AM

89. Then why are median wages and incomes up since 1994?

Could someone please at least address that rather than pretending it didn't happen?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #89)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 10:20 AM

107. CITATIONS PLEASE

 

...

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #107)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 10:35 AM

109. FFS HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO POST THESE?

Also please make sure you know the meaning of "real", "inflation-adjusted", and "median" before responding (just speaking from painful DU experience there).

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t01.htm

http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Household-Income-Distribution.php

http://www.russellsage.org/sites/all/files/chartbook/Income%2520and%2520Earnings.pdf

Better yet just go to BLS and search for the numbers you are interested in. That's what we pay them for.

The slowness of real wage and income growth is a problem, but pretending it hasn't happened is silly. It even happened faster in the 20 years after NAFTA than the 20 years before it.

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #28)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 07:52 AM

77. No, it's a mere repetition

as if that will make it true. There are people who are using this as a wedge issue. It's part of that campaign, along with the loss of national sovereignty and other such statements. Nobody has to prove anything. Simply state it and act shocked if questioned.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:39 PM

31. Truth. We are just slaves and cannon fodder to them. n/t

 

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #31)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 10:16 PM

39. You think you're so clever and classless and free

but you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see.

John Lennon

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:41 PM

33. Had enough yet?

This is your Democratic Party under the control of neoliberals. Make no mistake, this Kabuki Theater was no accident. We have been had, by those who swore to defend us. This is a coordinated attack on our democracy.

Sharpen your pitchforks and fire up your torches.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:44 PM

34. He'll be out of office. He doesn't care.

 

And all the corporations that are for this will be paying him $250,000 a pop for the rest of his life to come give speeches about nothing.

Legacy, yo.

We will also be instructed by interested by partisans to think nothing at all about the fortune the President will accrue. They really will be asking for his advice about hedge funds and global marketing strategies because of his personal expertise in those fields.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:18 PM

44. Nothing will stop the jobs going. Nothing.

You can stamp your feet all you want, but I'm just right about this. Cheaper global labor (and even more, technology) will take the jobs. Period. And new jobs will keep coming. The TPP decides whether they go to Vietnam and Malaysia, with some rules, or China, Bangadesh, and India, with no rules.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #44)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 04:29 AM

46. Labor has always been cheaper in some other countries, yet we kept our jobs here. Do you know how?

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #46)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 07:35 AM

56. We kept our jobs here now. Unemployment is lower than in 1993

NAFTA promised higher American employment and wages, and delivered. The unemployment rate is lower than 1993. The discouraged worker rate is lower than 1993. The median hourly wage is higher than in 1993. The median household income is higher than in 1993. Income and wages at each quintile grew more in the 20 years after NAFTA than the 20 years before it. Ross Perot was wrong, and Bill Clinton was right.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #56)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:07 PM

59. but according to this chart it buys about 35-40% less

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/colaseries.html

cherry picking economic data is dishonest

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #59)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:23 PM

63. That is all that poster does.

 

You are right to question everything.

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Response to Rex (Reply #63)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:32 PM

66. Yep, corporate propaganda and cherry picking.

Posts the exact same talking points put out by various corporate front groups.

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #59)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:43 PM

68. "Real" means inflation-adjusted

Invariably, however, DUers seem to ignore that.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #56)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:28 PM

64. Let's see what a progressive site says.

http://www.epi.org/publication/nafta-legacy-growing-us-trade-deficits-cost-682900-jobs/

NAFTA’s Legacy Growing U.S. Trade Deficits Cost 682,900 Jobs
By Robert E. Scott | December 17, 2013

Former President Bill Clinton claimed that NAFTA would create an “export boom to Mexico” that would create 200,000 jobs in two years and a million jobs in five years, “many more jobs than will be lost” due to rising imports.  The economic logic behind his argument was clear:  Trade creates new jobs in exporting industries and destroys jobs when imports replace the output of domestic firms.   Fast forward 20 years and it’s clear that things didn’t work out as Clinton promised.  NAFTA led to a flood of outsourcing and foreign direct investment in Mexico.  U.S. imports from Mexico grew much more rapidly than exports, leading to growing trade deficits, as shown in the Figure.  Jobs making cars, electronics, and apparel  and other goods moved to Mexico, and job losses piled up in the United States, especially in the Midwest where those products used to be made.  By 2010, trade deficits with Mexico had eliminated 682,900 good U.S. jobs, most (60.8 percent) in manufacturing.

Claims by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce that NAFTA “trade” has created millions of jobs are based on disingenuous accounting, which counts only jobs gained by exports but ignores jobs lost due to growing imports.  The U.S. economy has grown in the past 20 years despite NAFTA, not because of it.  Worse yet, production workers’ wages have suffered in the United States.  Likewise, workers in Mexico have not seen wage growth.  Job losses and wage stagnation are NAFTA’s real legacy.

.948

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Response to Recursion (Reply #56)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:06 AM

83. Citations please.

 

We've seen your cherry-picked bullshit before.... not falling for it a second time...

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Response to Recursion (Reply #44)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 07:54 AM

79. Which makes it a support for our jobs

yeah, using this as a wedge issue has not worked out so well. The wedgers simply won't face reality. We cannot keep the US the richest country on earth by retreating from the reality of just how many people there are in China and India, etc.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #44)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:43 AM

97. Well, then our consumer based economy is destroyed. Period.

I know you're not in the business of telling people what they want to hear, so let me reciprocate:

There is no "next big thing". There is no "killer app". Corporate greed runs rampant. America's gerrymandered Congress is controlled by Republicans who would rather die than give one atom speck of fairness to the impoverished. This is never going to get any better if something is not done NOW.

If we earned what the average worker in the third world made, we'd be living in tents under bridges and would have to fend for ourselves and live in mud huts and eat bugs. We still have to pay American prices on necessities and consumables however low our wage is. Of course, to someone who frequently employs the Fallacy of Relative Privation such as yourself, that might not be that bad watching Americans get their "Just Desserts", right?

An economy that depends on millions upon millions of people to consume, combined with an infinite supply of labor, resources and wealth in a world where none of that exists is going to FAIL long term unless there are equal-paying jobs to replace the ones destroyed. In the past 20 years, as it is now, that has NOT happened and I'm not optimistic corporate America is going to change their ways.

If there is no viable job market to accommodate the millions of un/underemployed Americans, then all the mortgaged education in the world isn't going to amount to a hill of trash. Past performance does not guarantee future results. All you're going to have is the greatest educated shelf stockers on Earth
.

But hey, you got yours, right? So who cares?

Hope they sell some freon for your bloodstream in the future. You'll need it as the world burns.

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Response to HughBeaumont (Reply #97)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:45 AM

98. You're pretending the service economy doesn't exist

I'm not sure why; it's two thirds or more of every advanced economy and works very well.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #98)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:57 AM

104. If you have tons of green to educate yourself for the higher-end "services", that is.

Hard telling how that's going to happen when you're un/underemployed.

Go into business for yourself, and you now have a haphazard crapshoot that can succeed OR fail. And just try to get a second chance in 2015 when you do fail.

Then there's the giant retail/entertainment/restaurant world . . . . because THAT'S going to logically replace the 1980s manufacturing wage.

I haven't even scratched the surface on the limited benefits these "jobs" have to offer as opposed to the manufacturing/auto/industrial jobs our parents worked at used to.

This isn't Germany we live in, kid.

http://www.newworldeconomics.com/archives/2010/051610.html

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 04:32 AM

47. Wrong. Hillary recently said that she was not in favor of passing the fast track

because the jobs bill wasn't passed.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #47)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 04:36 AM

49. Really? That's hopeful. She's currently against it? Link?

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #49)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 04:49 AM

51. I don't know what she thinks now, since it got cloture (with some help from Pelosi.) This is what

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 09:27 AM

58. They have no respect for honesty. The appearance of honesty is seen as a tool.

We have watched it over and over again.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:16 PM

60. The People are just easily-ignored speed bumps

 

on the Corporate Highway they are well-paid to travel. Minor, temporary inconveniences. They serve their masters well. It is what the are paid to do.

SANDERS '16!

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 07:51 AM

76. Apparently they disagree with you

I've heard about this loss of jobs over and over but still just repeating it over and over does not make it real.

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Response to treestar (Reply #76)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 07:56 AM

80. We've lost 60,000 factories since 2001.

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #80)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:44 AM

90. And?

Why do you care about factories? Most Americans don't work in one. It's a niche employment sector, like video game design. And the factories we do have employ about 10% of the people they used to because of automation.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #80)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:04 AM

92. I wonder what happened in 2001. Manufacturing jobs fell off a cliff after 2000. Only recently,

starting in 2011, have they begun to recover and grow.

For 14+ years before 1994 manufacturing employment and wages declined. From 1994 to 2000 manufacturing jobs and wages increased. Then after 2001 jobs and wages in manufacturing resumed their pre-1994 plunge.

I see a partisan pattern there, though others say that Democrats are lucky and republicans are unlucky when it comes to the performance of the economy.

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Response to pampango (Reply #92)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:14 AM

94. PNTR with China: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNTR

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #94)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:52 AM

101. Damn! PNTR! I should have known it was the fault of a Democratic and not a republican president.

How did I miss that! Democrats are always signing international agreements and allowing other countries into international organizations. Herbert Hoover would not be happy though FDR might think they are unsurprising developments.

The economy might do much better under Democrats with more jobs and higher wages but the poor republicans just inherit the 'mess' that Democrats leave them and then get blamed for our economic problems that are really the fault of Democrats. Poor GWB inherited NAFTA and PNTR. What was he supposed to do?

You are right though. The growth of the Chinese economy affected our economy just like the recovery of the European and Japanese economies affected us in the decades after WWII. It would be nice, I suppose, if the US were an island that was never affected by economic, political or military events in other parts of the world. Or if the rest of the world did not recover from the devastation of war or the chaos caused by a dictator, so that we could be the undisputed powerhouse and rule-setter for the rest of the world forever.

But, alas, that is not going to happen. We are part of the world just like Germany, Sweden and Canada are. Eventually we will learn to act like it and stop seeing ourselves as 'exceptional' and entitled to set the world's economic, military and political rules to our maximum advantage.

Without PNTR and China joining the WTO, China would still be an economic backwater like it was under Mao? Keeping the largest country in the world out of the organization that sets and enforces international trading rules seems a bit America-centric. China signed FDR's ITO agreement and would have been a member if congress had not shot the whole thing down.

Russia's economy survived for many years before it joined the WTO in 2012. I suspect that keeping China out of the WTO by denying it PNTR would not have affected China's economic growth any more than it affected Russia's.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 07:52 AM

78. Sure. Arm-chair economists trump reality every time.

 

And traffic lights are deliberately timed to make our lives miserable, too.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #78)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 08:57 AM

91. Why are acting as if its just us here at DU when its also our Democratic leaders saying the same?

Are you going to say they don't know what they're talking about?

Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio):
“This is a day of celebration in the corporate suites to be sure, because they have another corporate-sponsored trade agreement that will mean more money in some investors’ pockets, that will mean more plant closings in Ohio and Arizona and Delaware and Rhode Island and West Virginia and Maine and all over this country.

"How shameful," Brown said. "We’re making this decision knowing that people will lose their jobs because of our action."


Sen Sheldon Whitehouse(D-RI):
"I’m disappointed that my colleagues voted to prohibit Congress from improving future trade agreements. Past trade pacts have hurt Rhode Island workers, and I believe we need a new trade policy that puts jobs, our environment, and worker safety ahead of the interests of international corporations.’’


Sen Al Franken(D-MN):
“I believe the fast track authority legislation advanced in the Senate today falls far short of ensuring that trade agreements will truly benefit Minnesota workers, communities, and businesses,” Franken said in a statement after the vote. “At home, we’ve seen what happens when we don’t have — and just as importantly, can’t — enforce strong trade protections: countries like China unfairly dump their goods into our country, and as a result, 1,000 Minnesotan jobs are on the chopping block.”


Sen Harry Reid(D-NV):
"Every day in this chamber, we make a choice about whether we will serve large business interests or America's middle class. Today, I believe we made the wrong choice."

Asked by a reporter Tuesday what was next for the trade package, Reid said: "I am the wrong person to talk to. I hate the whole program. So, talk to somebody that likes it. I hate it."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026892404

Are you saying they're armchair economists? Or are they people who actually care about keeping & creating jobs for Americans?

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Response to RiverLover (Reply #91)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:08 AM

93. Yet most Democrats are in favor of it.

 

They aren't economists yet they bring up important points that need to be listened to. I have no problem whatsoever with adding greater protections to the TPP.

What I object to is the assumption that Obama is doing this simply because he hates us all or because he loves him some corporations.

Based on his previous actions, that kind of illogical viewpoint will never sway a debate, will never add to the discourse. It's ugly and unreflective of reality.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #93)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:19 AM

95. The majority of Dems in the House & the Senate voted against Fast Tracking trade deals

because its Un-Democratic. (opposing democratic principle)

Most Democrats are for FAIR trade. Not these bad trade deals for corporations' profits & lower wages for people.

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Response to RiverLover (Reply #95)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:46 AM

99. It's odd; both parties are kind of going against their base here

Democratic voters when polled marginally support the TPP and Republicans pretty solidly oppose it. Their representatives are listening to small vocal sections of their party on this.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 09:57 AM

103. Combined, both Dems

and GOP make a totally Conservative Rule as the country says NO Way in Hell and takes a LEFT Turn.

It is My opinion....that we have Unknowingly (blind trust)elected the Best Republican POTUS' and RW Congress since Eisenhower...Except - I really can't see GOP Eisenhower and "old school" GOP being FOR NAFTA/CAFTA/TPP/TPA/TAA/TISA/TITP, Repealing Glass-Steagall, 1996 Telecommunications Act, Welfare Reform that hurt Millions, DADT and more.

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