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Sun Jun 21, 2015, 07:15 PM

Why in the world would anyone associate that confederate rag with racism?



http://civilwartalk.com/attachments/iq517864931-jpg.66756/



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Reply Why in the world would anyone associate that confederate rag with racism? (Original post)
struggle4progress Jun 2015 OP
octoberlib Jun 2015 #1
Cryptoad Jun 2015 #52
Juicy_Bellows Jun 2015 #2
Hoyt Jun 2015 #3
struggle4progress Jun 2015 #5
Rosa Luxemburg Jun 2015 #18
elias7 Jun 2015 #22
chervilant Jun 2015 #27
lame54 Jun 2015 #40
Beartracks Jun 2015 #42
niyad Jun 2015 #53
Beartracks Jun 2015 #66
Stevepol Jun 2015 #43
chervilant Jun 2015 #65
elias7 Jun 2015 #60
chervilant Jun 2015 #64
Hoyt Jun 2015 #31
elias7 Jun 2015 #57
fasttense Jun 2015 #38
ann--- Jun 2015 #51
elias7 Jun 2015 #55
Jamastiene Jun 2015 #29
handmade34 Jun 2015 #4
unblock Jun 2015 #6
struggle4progress Jun 2015 #8
unblock Jun 2015 #10
struggle4progress Jun 2015 #20
Leontius Jun 2015 #13
LineLineLineReply ?
unblock Jun 2015 #14
Separation Jun 2015 #39
Missn-Hitch Jun 2015 #17
KingCharlemagne Jun 2015 #7
daleanime Jun 2015 #9
SoapBox Jun 2015 #11
Enthusiast Jun 2015 #12
AtomicKitten Jun 2015 #15
U4ikLefty Jun 2015 #25
AtomicKitten Jun 2015 #26
LastLiberal in PalmSprings Jun 2015 #32
Rose Siding Jun 2015 #45
oberliner Jun 2015 #49
Gumboot Jun 2015 #16
WillyT Jun 2015 #19
calimary Jun 2015 #21
Duppers Jun 2015 #35
Beartracks Jun 2015 #41
Duppers Jun 2015 #46
spanone Jun 2015 #23
onecent Jun 2015 #24
Warpy Jun 2015 #28
Art_from_Ark Jun 2015 #34
HPXYZ Jun 2015 #30
Paka Jun 2015 #33
B Calm Jun 2015 #36
DinahMoeHum Jun 2015 #37
Thespian2 Jun 2015 #44
marym625 Jun 2015 #47
samsingh Jun 2015 #48
oberliner Jun 2015 #50
jtuck004 Jun 2015 #54
fasttense Jun 2015 #61
CTBlueboy Jun 2015 #56
oberliner Jun 2015 #58
BumRushDaShow Jun 2015 #59
alterfurz Jun 2015 #62
love_katz Jun 2015 #63

Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 07:18 PM

1. Kick &Rec

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Response to octoberlib (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 11:44 AM

52. More Non Racist Shit.....



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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 07:25 PM

2. There you have it. It's an ugly symbol - it needs to go.

Kick

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 07:25 PM

3. I immediately suspect anyone who says it's not a symbol of racism.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 07:33 PM

5. Sensitive Ted feels misunderstood

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 08:54 PM

18. Yes

I keep seeing ugly posts on Facebook saying that there is nothing wrong with the flag.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 09:52 PM

22. I had a good buddy in college with one on his wall

one of the finest, most intelligent, most welcoming, non-judgmental people I have met in my life. He was a Deadhead and a rebel in the best sense of the word. Not a racist bone in his body. Probably an exception to the rule, and I don't now what he would say today about that flag.

In one sense, it can be seen as a symbol of racism, but not always, as it is representative of other concepts as well.

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Response to elias7 (Reply #22)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 10:01 PM

27. What "other concepts"?

I cannot think of a single "other concept."

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Response to chervilant (Reply #27)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 08:55 AM

40. here's one...

Sore Loser

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Response to chervilant (Reply #27)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 09:12 AM

42. That's why there's Wikipedia! That symbol's been around for a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Only after WWII, of course, has it been so stigmatized.

====================

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Response to Beartracks (Reply #42)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 12:01 PM

53. what does the swastika have to do with the confederate flag?

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Response to niyad (Reply #53)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 01:43 PM

66. Whoops. That's what I get for....

... hopping around the discussion too much. I thought the question was about the swatika.

===================

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Response to chervilant (Reply #27)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 09:14 AM

43. Oh come on now, there are many:

loyalty to home and family, independence in the face of overwhelming odds, love of one's own area or region.

There are many more. That doesn't change the fact that the cause that the flag represented was the most ignoble and racist, certainly in the US, and maybe in all of world history. It should be removed from all public and governmental buildings and associations.

As for individuals, it's up to the individual as to what he or she thinks it represents. But if an individual insists on using it as a symbol of pride, that person is not likely to have very many black friends or white friends either for that matter. And those friends may not see it in the same idealistic way the individual is seeing it.

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Response to Stevepol (Reply #43)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 09:20 PM

65. At this point in our history,

the confederate battle flag is inextricably associated with entrenched and virulent racism. For me, the other "concepts" you've listed are red herrings.

We have little boys here who cruise through town with two big confederate battle flags in the bed of their pick-up trucks. They sport other racist symbols on their bumpers and rear windows.

The KKK is a strong presence here. Thomas Robb, their national director, resides in the county just north of mine.

In Harrison, AR, Robb and his sycophants have put up racist billboards averring that "anti-racist is a code word for anti-white," and "it's not racist to **heart** your people." Far too many of the denizens of this little town fully agree with Mr. Robb, and the confederate battle flag is their favorite emblem.

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Response to chervilant (Reply #27)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 06:14 PM

60. so what do you see when you look at an American Flag?

Truth, justice, and the American way?

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Response to elias7 (Reply #60)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 08:23 PM

64. No, no, and no.

But, then, I didn't ask about the American flag, did I? (Remember, as Johnson said and Dylan immortalized: patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.)

At this point in our history, the confederate battle flag has become inextricably linked with deeply entrenched racism. I find anyone's "allegiance" to this flag highly suspect, even if that 'anyone' is "one of the finest, most intelligent, most welcoming, non-judgmental people" on the planet.

So, my question remains: what "other" concepts?

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Response to elias7 (Reply #22)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 10:36 PM

31. At a minimum it displays a lack of respect for people who have been treated unfairly.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #31)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 05:32 PM

57. Today, that is the dominant meaning among the socially conscious

but look at any cultural or historical symbol. For example, this:



To those embracing of the tech culture, that means rofl, but it could be me laughing some folly or foolishness, or it could be me appreciating a clever or humorous comment. To the Luddite-type, it may represent a sad Koolaid-ingesting electronic culture junky who is forever trying to roll with the latest teen fad. To me, a medical person, that is the universal symbol of epilepsy.

To a bright and creative southern kid following the Dead around the summer before starting an Ivy League education, the confederate flag meant "don't tread on me", now a pejorative clarion call of the libertarian, but not always. This kid was one of the most accepting, fair minded, intelligent, and welcoming people I have ever met, taught me much, including how to do this:

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Response to elias7 (Reply #22)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 08:06 AM

38. Yes, the Confederate flags represent other concepts like

 

A failed slave economy, a failed war, a swastika for black concentration camps, a symbol of sex trade and trafficing in the sale of children (a pedophile's paradise was a slave plantation after all), traitors of the United States, a failed feudal system and southrern hatred. Yes the confederte flags have a lot of concepts tied to them. But the one we should remeber forever are the concentrtion camps where people were shackled, chained, tortured, sexually exploited, raped routinely, and forced to labor for a handful of really lazy rich white people.

Now there is the "heritage" of the confedercy.

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Response to elias7 (Reply #22)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 11:03 AM

51. Just proves that not

 

everyone VIEWS the slavery flag as a symbol of racism, but
that doesn't change the FACT that the flag was representative
of an entire movement FOR SLAVERY and secession from the
United States.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #51)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 04:47 PM

55. Right, 30 years ago, a high school kid saw this as an anti-authoritarian symbol

The Rebel mindset fit right in for deadheads in the aftermath of the 60's for at least a couple of decades. Just because I may hang an American flag up on holidays (I dont), shouldn't mean to the rest of the world that I am representative of our foreign policy of aggression, our domestic policy of social inequality, and our cultural superficiality. Just as not all southerners supported slavery and not all northerners were abolitionists.

The flag, or any symbol, means many different things to many different people. Today, the pejorative connotations of the confederate flag dominate the discourse, and I think most considerate people get that. The swastika is from the Sanskrit, and the meaning in Hindu culture in one of prosperity and good fortune. Of course, as a Jew, I cannot get past the nazi connotation, but it doesn't mean that everyone must agree with me.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 10:27 PM

29. Same here.

They are outright lying when they say that.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 07:28 PM

4. K&R n/t

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 07:37 PM

6. at the risk of invoking godwin's law, (then again, the swastika is in one of those pics)...

nazi's have at least as good a claim (of not a greater claim) that the swastika and the nazi flags were not symbols of anti-semitism.

discrimination against jews was merely one part of hitler's agenda, and arguably it was merely an exploitable means to an other ends. a modern-day nazi could argue that it was a symbol of nationalism, national identity, government in fierce defense of its industry, righting historical wrongs (in that the treaty the ended world war one was "unfair" to germany), etc.

yet germany has banned the symbol, and whatever the losers of that war might have felt about what the symbols meant, the victors (and the victims) are the ones who get to determine what the symbols stand for historically.

so, the nazi flags and swastika have become symbols of anti-semitism, along with other forms of hatred (anti-gay, anti-polish, anti-roma, etc.).


as for the confederate symbols, whatever some people may think it symbolized, and indeed, whatever the csa itself said it stood for, today is most certainly stands for bigotry and violence against blacks, slavery, and government defense of slavery.


i'm not suggesting these symbols be banned entirely, as germany did theirs; but i will say that one must be bat-shit crazy to display any confederate flag and not expect many people to see it as a clear and overt sign of racism. or worse, to challenge their view.

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Response to unblock (Reply #6)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 07:58 PM

8. Nazi social theory was unabashedly racist


... Prior to World War I, there were very few dark-skinned people of African descent in Germany. But, during World War I, the French brought in Black African soldiers during the Allied occupation. Most of the Germans, who were very race conscious, despised the dark-skinned "invasion". Some of these Black soldiers married White German women that bore children referred to as "Rhineland Bastards" or the "Black Disgrace". On May 13, 1931, the International Olympic Committee, headed by Count Henri Baillet-Latour of Belgium, awarded the 1936 Summer Olympics to Berlin. The choice signaled Germany's return to the world community after defeat in World War I. In the months and years that followed, Germany proceeded to oppress and murder Blacks and other non-Aryans. On July 14th 1933, they enacted a new law providing a basis for forced sterilization of handicapped persons, Gypsies, and Blacks ...

... Deutsche Welle spoke to leading German historian Prof. Reiner Pommerin to find out what happened to these children. "I published a book in the 70s, which told the reader about the sterilization of mixed blood children. These were children who had been fathered by occupation forces - mostly French occupation forces," he said. His book, "Sterilisierung der Rheinlandbastarde. Das Schicksal einer farbigen deutschen Minderheit 1918 - 1937" ("Sterilization of the Rhineland Bastards: the fate of a colored German minority 1918 - 1937" publicized the sterilization of the Black minority in Nazi Germany ... According to Campt, the major difference between the experience of blacks and that of other groups in the Third Reich is the lack of a systematic Nazi extermination plan. Moreover, because of the small number of blacks living in Germany, few people are ready to recognize that there was even a population whose experience can be discussed ...

The German occupation of Poland was exceptionally brutal. The Nazis considered Poles to be racially inferior. Following the military defeat of Poland by Germany in September 1939, the Germans launched a campaign of terror. German police units shot thousands of Polish civilians and required all Polish males to perform forced labor ... Between 1939 and 1945, at least 1.5 million Polish citizens were deported to German territory for forced labor ...

... Other targets of Nazi racism included the Slavic populations of Eastern Europe (especially Russians and Poles) ...

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #8)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 08:00 PM

10. lol, yeah, i'm well aware, as i think most here are!

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Response to unblock (Reply #10)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 09:08 PM

20. I misunderstood your view

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Response to unblock (Reply #6)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 08:21 PM

13. That's some warped fuking logic you got there.

 

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Response to Leontius (Reply #13)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 08:27 PM

14. ?

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Response to unblock (Reply #14)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 08:06 AM

39. Misunderstood

I believe that you may have misunderstood unblock's post and stance on the matter.

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Response to Leontius (Reply #13)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 08:43 PM

17. Please elaborate.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 07:37 PM

7. Best thread I've seen on this subject today. Sincerest

 

compliments.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 07:58 PM

9. K&R.....

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 08:13 PM

11. What the hell is with the swastikas?

Those creeps are not any Americans that I know.

Disgraceful doesn't even begin to describe those disturbing pictures.

p.s...even more disturbing, is that the CA state flag to the right of the last picture?

That makes me feel even more sick to my stomach.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 08:19 PM

12. Kicked and recommended to the Max!

Thank you, struggle4progress.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 08:28 PM

15. Point of interest FWIW.

 

This is the actual Confederate flag:



The one widely considered the Confederate flag is actually the Battle Flag of the Army of Tennessee:




And you betyerass it's a symbol of white supremacy and racial hatred. The fact that it's cultural doesn't change that; really, it makes it way, way worse.

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #15)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 09:59 PM

25. Which makes them stupid racists?

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #25)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 10:00 PM

26. Not the flags, of course. It's what they do/say under the banner.

 

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #15)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 11:00 PM

32. The Battle Flag was created to avoid confusion

Flags were carried to help commanders assess the progress of battles. The similarity between the U.S. "Stars and Stripes" and the Confederacy's "Stars and Bars" was causing confusion, hence the desire for a different flag.

wikipedia

Ultimately both the Stars and Bars and the Battle Flag were replaced by the white flag of surrender...

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Response to LastLiberal in PalmSprings (Reply #32)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:08 AM

45. They made it as un-American as possible, lest there be any confusion

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #15)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:53 AM

49. The Confederate Battle Flag

 

The Confederate Battle Flag. The best-known Confederate flag, however, was the Battle Flag, the familiar "Southern Cross". It was carried by Confederate troops in the field which were the vast majority of forces under the confederacy.

The Stars represented the 11 states actually in the Confederacy plus Kentucky and Missouri.

http://www.usflag.org/confederate.stars.and.bars.htm

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 08:35 PM

16. Makes me sick to see those turds...

... flying their swastika flags next to our Stars and Stripes.

Worthless little runts, all of 'em.


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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 08:58 PM

19. Huge K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

 


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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 09:35 PM

21. Hate rag. The Dixie Swastika.

Thank you BartCop for that one, and thank you DUers Dubbers and brewens, for dropping that excellent little meme into our discussions here! I think calling it the Dixie Swastika really frames it accurately and rather exquisitely. That's what it IS. And anything I can do to help further sully its image and render it that much more undesirable (so we can banish the damn thing and finally put it on ICE), I will do!

Let's get that horrid, divisive, hateful eyesore OUT of our sight - once and for ALL!!!!

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Response to calimary (Reply #21)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 07:03 AM

35. Let's keep repeating it, folks, Dixie Swastika.

Last edited Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:12 AM - Edit history (1)

Thanks, calimary.

- Duppers

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Response to Duppers (Reply #35)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 09:06 AM

41. I think you meant "Dixie Swastika"?

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Response to Beartracks (Reply #41)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:11 AM

46. Oh my stupid! Definitely.

Thank you, BearTracks!!

I'll change it.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 09:55 PM

23. k&r...

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 09:56 PM

24. K & R....

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 10:13 PM

28. For me, it's just an asshole indicator

I don't want to ban it except from government buildings. It can be displayed elsewhere, it's a good indicator of who to avoid.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #28)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 04:55 AM

34. Exactly

Nothing says "Avoid me like the plague" better than waving one of those flags.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 10:28 PM

30. Flag must come down now

 

It is divisive and hateful.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 04:19 AM

33. Potent images.

Speaks out loud and clear. That message should get through even with blinders on.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 07:18 AM

36. There is an idiot here in Northern Indiana who proudly displays the Confederate War flag on a pole

 

in the back of his pickup. He sits in an empty lot and sells ILLINOIS sweet corn during the summer.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 08:02 AM

37. The only proper use of the "Dixie Swastika" is as a toilet. . .

. . .or a garbage can.

Just sayin'.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 09:23 AM

44. The South lost the War...

but many southerners have never stopped fighting it...the Stars and Bars represents the battle to keep black people slaves...inherently a racist statement...

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:28 AM

47. K&R

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:50 AM

48. kick

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:55 AM

50. Is the American flag associated with racism as well?

 

It is being waved along with the Confederate flag and Nazi flag in that last photo.

In fact, the American flag is often carried at neo-Nazi rallies alongside Nazi ones.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #50)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 12:10 PM

54. The flag of the country that wrote in their constitution that black folk are not really people,

 

enslaved them, and sends its police out to murder them while they are unarmed children, today leaving tens of millions unemployed so others can pretend to greater wealth. All this in a nation that was established by murdering between 50 and 80 million native people and stealing their lands and wealth so that everyone today can profit from it?

Oh, say it ain't so. All those fingers pointing at the other flags are gonna start to shake now.

You don't think that's why they structure your education so you can't possibly think that, do you?

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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #54)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 06:15 PM

61. Hence the reason the US flag is frequently burned

 

In protests.

Flags can take on some really gruesome meanings when the societies they symbolize become decrepid or corrupted. Maybe countries and societies should have rebrandings every century or so like corporations. That would eliminate all those historic horrors associated with their symbols.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #50)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 05:08 PM

56. question

 

you don't support Gov. Haley's decision to remove the flag ?

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Response to CTBlueboy (Reply #56)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 05:52 PM

58. I definitely think the flag ought to be removed

 

I cannot even fathom that it was allowed to fly there in the first place.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 05:56 PM

59. K&R and no comment was needed. nt

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 06:26 PM

62. "kinder, gentler" replacement suggestion

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 07:06 PM

63. K&R plus a gazillion.

These are some really ugly, and revealing pics.

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