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Fri Jun 5, 2015, 09:54 AM

 

The latest "banning" (NYC_SKP) is an interesting lesson on REPUTATION.

ON EDIT: I accidentally copy/pasted the post in duplicate - my apologies!

NYC_SKP and I are on good terms outside of DU; we met here, extended the relationship to Facebook and have spoken on the phone several times.

He is not a misogynist, a racist or a homophobe. He is a California Democrat, currently supporting Bernie Sanders (not a Republican), and personally has a long history of political activism in favor of causes near and dear to the hearts of most people on this board. His "real life" credentials are excellent.

On DU he has continued his tradition of service by acting as a moderator in a major forum back in "the olden days", then host in half a dozen forums on DU3. His participation over tens of thousands of posts was polite, respectful and courteous enough that his hide level is nearly non-existent. He has regularly made financial donations in support of the site, and is a "recognized" name to many of us.

His banning has the site in an uproar with an all-out near flame war. There is grave dancing by those who found his passion for his preferred candidate annoying, joy from the purely anti-misogynist crowd (many of whom count their "hides" in double digits with multiple time outs due to their rude and borderline abusive posts), and frankly consternation from his friends/other long time posters because if it could happen to him over ONE POST then it could happen to us, too.

Banned. Cut from the club. Not "time out/come back and explain yourself" - BANNED. No chance to clarify what you were thinking, apologize if required, or defend the post.

What is the value of an online reputation using a pseudonym? Especially in a for-profit discussion forum? For him or against him, his reputation is in tatters; he is now an accused misogynist, a stupid over the top rude idiot - a fool who doesn't belong among the "decent folks" on this board --

What value the hundreds of hours he spent here?

I have been a member since 2004. DU has been a part of my life on a near daily basis ever since. I have shared public triumphs (recounting New Hampshire presidential election, American Red Cross during Hurricane Katrina), personal tragedy (death of my father, loss of my beloved dogs, the story of my sister with MS), and the joy of getting pregnant/giving birth/raising my now eight year old twins. In 2012 when I began figuring out the connection between micronutrient deficiency, growth retardation and cerebral palsy, my first public discussion on the topics began here, and when I worked on the dratted paper explaining it all, I talked about that, too.

This site is someplace between a habit and a home. I have a reputation here. What is that worth? In real life my family walked with our newly elected Democratic Representative in a local Memorial Day parade and I am NOT a racist, a misogynist or a homophobe. I am a rabid supporter of civil rights issues, I support legalization of marijuana, but think people who chance losing their children over it are idiots, despise illegal drug use, and am adamant about a strong social safety net.

Am I DEMOCRAT enough for this board? Is my reputation strong enough to survive a mistake or a mistyping or a misunderstanding or a temporary moment of over the top passionate typing? If or when I am banned, and the grave dancing begins (the Woo Wars alone ensure those!), how will I handle the "little death" of that moment? Will the glee of the cruel erase the good memories I have made? Will I question the number of hours I have spent here, reading and responding to "imaginary" people, and wonder why I bothered?

What will my reputation be worth? How will I be remembered? Will I be mourned?

This playpen is run by good people who deservedly receive income from their efforts. I submit that there is a value brought by long term members and that at some point an arbitrary kick to the curb is inappropriate by our hosts. At some point you stop typing or texting and pick up the blasted phone to repair a relationship before it goes off the rails.

If you value it, anyway. That is what you do when you care about people. And yes, with thousands of posters, many of us long term, the phone tree approach might be necessary - the details are not mine to work out - but (to circle back again) NYC_SKP is not the first "long timer" who has been booted; some have been welcomed back, and some have not.

This is an online discussion forum, and the long term rules are still being wrestled with. A good reputation has to have some value.

Doesn't it? Or is this place just a "what have you done for me lately/posters come and posters go" internet site instead of a community?

I post under my real name. I have received death threats (thank goodness not serious ones!) for some of my public stands. I am REAL - and so are the rest of the PEOPLE who post here. And, to be fair, at some point the board itself has a "personality" with a reputation of its own: thoughtful discussion, courteous behavior, insightful views....all provided by quality posters who bring their best to the site on a regular basis.

Long term versus short - a reputation for being a "good" poster either has value or it doesn't. The whisper I hear is "who is next?"

And that is not a good reputation for this place to have.

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Reply The latest "banning" (NYC_SKP) is an interesting lesson on REPUTATION. (Original post)
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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:01 AM

1. It is my understanding a banned DUer can approach the Admins to request reinstatement.

 

From what I've read (on places other than DU), one such banned DUer was allowed to return even after making public threats of violence against another DUer, so it seems to me that NYC_SKP has options here as what he did is not nearly so horrible as making a threat of violence against another DUer.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 01:56 PM

246. At least he's allowed to grovel.

Maybe an admin will take pity and offer him a short chain and collar.

Reek . . . I meant NYC_SKP, you're one of the lucky ones.

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Response to Ed Suspicious (Reply #246)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 02:01 PM

248. I doubt seriously if an admin would consider a reversal if the banned subject makes no request.

 

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #248)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 03:15 PM

270. It's likely he's a teachable moment

I totally understand the admins perspective. It's akin to a rancher hanging a dead coyote on a fence. The other coyotes will learn or risk the same fate. Fairly obvious in context.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #248)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:46 PM

367. If you're right about the admins, then they're being too narrow.

 

If I were running this site (and, please, no lectures, I know I'm not running it and the First Amendment doesn't apply and so forth), I would look at these threads and I would see a huge number of regular contributors stating themselves to be unhappy, with a small number even expressly saying that they won't renew their Star memberships.

Under those circumstances, I would at least consider taking the initiative to ameliorate the decision, even absent a request from the banned member. It would strike me as a sensible step to take for the good of the site.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #367)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 08:46 PM

382. I disagree completely with that.

 

If the offending member makes no request, there is no contrition thus proving the original ban was 100% correct.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #382)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:25 PM

442. To me, this is a little like begging...

When, in fact, so many have petitioned on his behalf, knowing what has already been explained, then the same message is given to the administrators.

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #442)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:43 PM

454. It matters not if the whole of DU petitions on his behalf.

 

If he cannot bring himself to display contrition, the ban was just and righteous from the beginning and it should not be lifted.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #454)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:48 PM

456. So, he should feel remorse for saying something that did not warrant same?

I don't think so.

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #456)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 12:17 AM

473. What he said absolutely deserved the ban hammer.

 

Those who try to justify his misogyny duplicate it.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #473)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 11:52 AM

551. That means that you accuse me of the same misogyny by my statement now?

Really? What a statement that is...

Do you have any other colored shirts in your closet besides brown?

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #473)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 12:40 AM

592. You are so right

 

It is PRETZEL logic.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #473)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 09:34 AM

621. No he did not, and a vast majority of the WOMEN here on DU do not agree with this at all.

There was NOTHING in his comment that even came close to 'misogyny' and please stop using that word, you clearly don't understand the meaning of it. It diminishes women to see it tossed around like this for purely political purposes and to me is more indicative of sexism than anything else. USING WOMEN for one's own purposes is sexism. So please refrain from doing it or by your own stated standards it is a bannable offense.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #621)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 10:44 AM

624. Ye, he did, and you're just making shit up.

 

There is no way to ell what the majority of WOMEN here on DU think about it.

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #442)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 01:49 AM

494. I agree with you, NYC will never ask to get back in,

that would be futile. I love NYC but we have lost a great DUer!

Nevertheless, this place is becoming too censor for my liking!

I thought it was free speech within a certain boundary, uphold democratic ideals. Now I can't figure out what are Democratic ideals?

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Response to akbacchus_BC (Reply #494)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 11:54 AM

552. I think you pretty well hit the nail, akbacchus...

I'm not gonna do more than suggest what I did… which is to question the administrators about it.

I don't expect any real answers from Skinner, but he needs to hear us.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #382)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 02:01 AM

497. Where we differ is that I see grounds for contrition on both sides.

 

NYC_SKP should not have posted what he did. EarlG should not have banned him for it. If each side refuses to budge until the other side acknowledges error, then nothing will happen. If there's to be any improvement in the situation, someone has to make the first move.

Personally, I'm pessimistic. I wouldn't be surprised if each side does feel some contrition but also feels enough anger to prevent any unbending (i.e., there will be neither a request for unban from NYC_SKP nor an unprompted change from the admins). Therefore, the status quo will remain, to the detriment of NYC_SKP and of DU.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #367)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:09 PM

430. I agree with you. A huge majority of members here are opposed to this banning. Regardless of the

business aspect of it, sometimes people have to admit they are wrong. It takes a strong person to do that, and I think that Skinner has shown an ability to do that in the past.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #430)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:06 PM

675. I thought it was pretty funny,

....shades of George Carlin, and the way he showcased hypocrisy in our laws and language.

Wherever you are, Skip,

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 04:58 PM

299. I remember writing directly to the owners about some guys who posted that they

raped women and girls in their youth when they 'didn't know any better' and they were not only not banned, I got no response.

I loathe the word used by NYC. But I also know about the moment taking you away. I also know that the owners are some of the bigger supporters of Clinton on this board. I also know that the owners Discussionist site routinely says the same or worse about Hillary without penalties. I guess its hard to say no to the money ads generate because Discussionist either has to be modded or dropped if you want to keep a 'reputation'. Maybe it is all about the benjamins that its still the seething cesspool that it is. I don't come here like I used to and I suppose even though I am an FDR-HST dem with a hard left lean and a desire not to die of my old age in a fascist state run by corporatists and their friends like Mrs. Clinton, that makes me a bad person.

Ban me too. I don't care but lets not pretend that only his one action led to this. Given the crud that gets to stay, it rather beggars the reasons behind NYC's banning.

I wish he were back. When the older people here leave, it won't be the same. When a things history leaves, no one can rightfully and accurately tell the truth about a place. I won't link to the posts about the rapists. Its in archives and is about a year or two back.

Sue me. Ban me. I miss you, NYC.

RV

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #299)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:29 PM

447. NYC did not use that word. Just wanted to make that clear. Otherwise good post.

Maybe DU never was what we thought it was. And that is what a lot of people are wondering now, is it just an online Campaign Headquarters for Hillary Clinton. Fine, if you own a site you can make it whatever you want it to be. But then you need to tell all those who are wasting their time here, donating to the site etc assuming it is NOT a Party site, but a Democratic site where it is okay to prefer one candidate over another.

If believing that a certain candidate is not the best thing for this country right now, gets you banned, then a whole lot of people are going to have to be banned.

They will continue to advocate for the candidate they believe is better for the country, just not here.

Maybe that is a question that needs to be asked 'Is DU now an online Campaign Headquarters for Hillary Clinton'. Because if the answer is 'yes', a whole lot of members here are in the wrong place. We definitely have a right to know this imo.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #447)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 03:56 AM

506. Good question!

If this site has become an online campaign headquarters for Hillary Clinton (or for any other candidate), DUers have a right to know. Hopefully, the admins will answer "no" to your question . . . soon!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #447)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 06:55 AM

513. Thank you. I've been thinking the same thing.

I'm not one bit interested in celebrating the wonder of Hillary Clinton. I think she's an awful candidate and would be an even worse President. This banning was more about saying bad things about Hillary than making a slur against all women, which is absurd. If this site is going to turn into Hillary Headquarters, all I can say is that there's a big web out there. Or I could actually get something worthy accomplished.

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Response to LuvNewcastle (Reply #513)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 09:00 AM

520. I have seen worse posts from a few members over the years, which have resulted in a hide, but not an

 


outright ban.


If this is a payback for skip being anti-Hilary then the owner/admins should be open to say so.

Otherwise one might come to believe that DU is now officially endorsing Hillary Clinton, and if that is the case the owner/admins need to make that clear when the donate to the site.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #520)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 07:26 AM

619. + 1 000 000 000 000 000..

 

It is exactly what it looks like.... an advertisement toward the most vocal not Ready For Hillary DUers...

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #447)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 09:05 AM

522. ...

 


Maybe that is a question that needs to be asked 'Is DU now an online Campaign Headquarters for Hillary Clinton'. Because if the answer is 'yes', a whole lot of members here are in the wrong place. We definitely have a right to know this imo.



May I take this to ask the admins?

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #522)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 09:51 AM

526. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1259&pid=8004

 

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #522)

Mon Jun 8, 2015, 12:32 AM

633. I think the question does need to be answered. My email and PMs are filled with DUers who are asking

if Bernie supporters, which are a majority of the membership here, are not welcome here.

We know that with the takeover of the Dem Party by the Third Way that Progressive Dems are not welcome, except for their votes for the choices made NOT by them, but by the leadership.

See comments by Rahm and Axelrod eg.

A clear message is now being sent finally, that no, you do not take our votes for granted anymore. Enough is enough. If we have no say in this party, and we have not for a long time, then do not count on our votes for YOUR choice of candidates anymore.

Times are changing, people are no longer going to put up with what we did a few years ago.

And if we progressives are not welcome HERE, it would be the fair thing to do to tell us.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #447)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 03:11 PM

577. 2 million % sabrina 1. I sort of think this is a one party

site. Everyone with a different idea is a 'hater'.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #447)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 01:15 AM

595. You nailed it right on the head Sabrina. And i believe you answered your own question.

 

DU is the internet campaign headquarters for HRC, clearly. Skinner himself trotted out the endorsement for her, speaking on behalf of DU. That was a few months ago, if memory serves. It's pretty clear to me, the fix is in and no one else shall be considered.

Kind of reminds me of the Chicago Convention of 1968 in a way.



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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #447)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 01:46 AM

598. I have the same exact question

 

I *will* vote for Hillary if she wins the primary, but this incident was just bad form.

I'm very unsettled by this.

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #299)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 01:38 AM

597. So what if the Admin support Hillary? It's their board.. they initiated it and kept it up and

running these years. They have a right to support who they want.

And, they have a right to ban SKP for his "clever" little misogynistic slur directed at Hillary Clinton.

"Troll"
Feel the Bern.

If she's not ready to handle spontaneous exchanges,

she is not fit for the Presidency. This is all smoke and mirrors, IMO. Yes, I am voting for Bernie but just thinking of her even pulling such a cunning stunt is pretty shockingly appalling.

I'm not sayin'--I'm just sayin'...

"There will be NO opportunities to interview Hillary Clinton; her speech will be her interview."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6775879
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6783979

How SKP responded..
"Welcome to DU, Feel the Bern! And yes, it's a Cunning Stunt!

I say that to myself every day, over an over.

It can be a tongue twister!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6775973

Posted it in his journal too.. just in case anyone missed his Hide..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/~NYC_SKP

EarlG (Administrator)

"Called Hillary Clinton the c-word. Thought he was being clever about it. He was not."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=221412&sub=trans

If SKP wants back he needs to own it and apologize to the Admin when asking to be re-instated.. not try to wiggle out of it like others are trying to do for him.

Those making excuses for him.. from saying "it wasn't directed at Hillary" to "he really didn't say it" to "he was only joking" are doing him absolutely no good.

I actually appreciate what the Admin of DU have done for our Democracy all these years.





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Response to Cha (Reply #597)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 12:11 PM

626. I expected a reply because I know I wasn't the only one who wrote

I expected action. Nothing happened. They may own it but we support it too. It does matter that they do. It influences a lot in my mind but then that's my opinion.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:04 AM

2. Recommended.

Thank you.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:05 AM

3. By clicking here you have read and understand and agree to the terms of service

a single violation may result in having your posting privleges revoked

that is todays lesson

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Response to GusBob (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:12 AM

7. True enough, but misses the point by a country mile

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Response to tkmorris (Reply #7)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:16 AM

12. from the op

'the rules are still being wrestled with'

the rules are as posted. clear as a country day

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Response to GusBob (Reply #12)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:24 AM

21. Do I need to edit for clarification? I was referring

 

to the LONG TERM rules of Internet forums/discussion boards in general. The TOS continue to evolve to meet the changing needs of our community (as they should). Fifteen years ago most of us weren't aware of some of the language we would now be using on a daily basis, and logically, our customs will continue to evolve over the next decade.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #21)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:37 AM

39. A harsh reality of life. Bad judgment coupled with pissing off the wrong person: everything changes

 

It's a shame, really, but it happens every day.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #39)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:30 PM

164. Now, again, please type onto DU the exact wording of NYC_SKP's post and the post before it

and see if you really think that he used bad enough judgment to be banned. In spite of all the talk to the contrary, if you look at the facts, NYC_SKP did not mention Hillary by name and did not use the very naughty "C" word at all.

He was banned for innuendo, no, more precisely for making a joke which we all use every day in some small way.

Besides, if he had used the "c" word, we must remember why it is a prohibited word. That specific four-letter word is considered to be vulgar. There are many polite phrases that really mean the same thing but that are not considered vulgar. We use them all the time.

Using a polite phrase that means the same thing is an insult, but it is mild is acceptable in society. And saying it is just an opinion. There are a thousand polite ways of saying the same thing as using the "c" word. NYC_SKP, like it or not, used one of them that is considered to be a synonym to some but is not at all the same word. In fact, it makes you laugh rather than be disgusted if you are normal.

People are going to say much worse things about each and every candidate in this presidential race before the election is over.

Good heavens! I'm rather disgusted with the ignorance and lack of understanding of linguistics and the social use of language demonstrated by this banning of NYC_SKP. I expect a higher level of intelligence and sophistication on a board as liberal as DU.

Show me where NYC_SKP actually used the "C" word.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #164)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:50 PM

190. You were doing so well until this:

 

I expect a higher level of intelligence and sophistication on a board as liberal as DU.


Take that little insult, kick it up a notch or ten, imagine that you had been doing that to 50 posters a day for a week, and there you have Skippy.

As for the rest, you're addressing the wrong person. And, considering that bereavement over Skippy's banning has been going nonstop for 24 hours, I'd say the admins have been really patient.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #190)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 01:05 PM

208. A lot more patient than in the past...

And, considering that bereavement over Skippy's banning has been going nonstop for 24 hours, I'd say the admins have been really patient.


I remember a time *cough*Purge*cough* when all it took to get the ban-hammer in here was to publicly mourn tombstoned members with a Roman-numeral-titled thread, and say nothing more.

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Response to Rhythm (Reply #208)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 01:36 PM

232. I was one of the purged. Banned for one thread that didn't violate the TOS.

 

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Response to dbackjon (Reply #232)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 03:06 PM

265. 7

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Response to QC (Reply #265)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 03:12 PM

268. I remember 2008

And the Gay Purge. The ugliest moment ever on this board and this place still hasn't recovered from it. And a good chunk of those who cheered those bannings on are still here, still posting. Which is why I rarely post here anymore.

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Response to enigmatic (Reply #268)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 03:39 PM

273. -Yep. Notice how many of the nastiest primary warriors of 2007-8

(or their zombies) are here clucking their tongues over the ugliness of Skippy's post--and yes, it was ugly.

Someone who called Hillary "morally depraved" and "an inveterate liar" and "a vicious politician who will stop at nothing to get what's coming to her" is now wringing her hands over the unseemliness of other people's much milder remarks on that same candidate.

These past few years, I come here more for amusement than enlightenment.

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Response to QC (Reply #273)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 03:43 PM

276. Agreed

Couldn't said it better.

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Response to QC (Reply #273)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 01:38 PM

569. Amazing, isn't it? It makes you seriously wonder about people. How they can totally change overnight

almost. Something has to be the cause of that.

As for coming here more for amusement than anything else, I've heard a lot of people say that. I used to come her to learn, and I did, years ago.

Not so much anymore. But so long as we are led to believe that it is okay to support a candidate we believe is best for this country right now, although recent events have led many here to believe it is NOT okay, until some official notice that states this is an online campaign headquarters for Clinton, which has not yet been said, I will continue to assume that we who support someone other than Clinton are still welcome here. Though it is hard to feel secure that this is the case.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #569)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 02:18 PM

571. I used to tell people things I learned at DU and they would say,

"How do you know all this stuff?" Then I would give them the link.

Now, not so much. I come here to see people I have known for years and maybe enjoy some drama and catch up on breaking news, but it's not the same. This is still a fun place, but it's not the education in politics that it used to be.

This is my fourth primary at DU, and I've seen the nastiest supporters of a candidate in one primary becomes the nastiest supporters of other candidates in later primaries. Some people just like being mean.

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Response to QC (Reply #571)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 04:47 PM

579. And from all indications

this next primary season might leave few standing. '08 was bloody and the results left a bad taste in my mouth. It changed DU irrevocably in every way. The tone that was left discouraged me from continuing as a Mod or active member. I rarely stop by now. There's no need for the mean spiritedness and life is far too short to indulge in the meaningless back and forth. It's kind of sad what's become of the place.

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Response to QC (Reply #571)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 06:39 PM

581. I think you have captured this place perfectly

 

This place is much more entertainment than informative now days. It's like Democratic WWF!

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Response to QC (Reply #571)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 12:28 AM

591. For some here, it's not really about issues, politicians, the party, or even politics

It's just a game to them. That's how they can easily slide from position to position, from candidates they despised one primary to cheering them on the next. Some treat it as another RPG where they take on a role and then switch sides after awhile to change things up for them. And stalking, harassing others is part of the game to them.

And yes, for some it's about the bullying that they can get away in regards to other people they, for whatever reason, hate. That's why you see certain people's posts alerted on all the time, no matter if the post is alert-worthy. People bully and hate for reasons that often make no sense, but that's humanity. Obviously when they carrying the bullying and stalking into RL then it much more sinister.

I've been on message boards for 20 years or so. Some as innocuous subject-wise as you can get, yet this kind of thing that we see here happened on most of those, too. It's about the personality types that inhabit them, not necessarily the subject matter.

Once I learned that lesson, it became much easier to disengage from that nastiness and chaos on message boards but I still get drawn into them; that's why I came back here after not posting for years. I found a candidate I backed and wanted to be a part of a group the was like-minded in support of him. But as this Primary season (which still hasn't even officially started yet) gets closer and closer, I realize i'll most likely bow out again and look for other boards and blogs to be a part of, because I know as a veteran of 3 other primaries here, that the toxicity here will be off the charts and I just don't want to be a part of that anymore.

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Response to enigmatic (Reply #591)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 12:50 AM

593. What you said

 

and I expect this primary to have a healthy dollup of antisemitism with a cherry on top to boot.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #593)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 01:09 AM

594. Like I said, it's a game for some here

I know you're one of those who has been bullied here and I really don't know how you stand to come back here; I would have left years ago. To me, this place is just not worth the abuse people dole out here on a regular basis to those they hate. I admire you for sticking to your guns about it.

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Response to enigmatic (Reply #594)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 01:17 AM

596. I left due to antisemitism

 

and am ready to leave again. I will not post at a place that allows this.

Now that the abusers are not ignored, but confronted...a verbal bloody nose...they are rather confused.

One got utterly gobsmacked when told I don't hate that person (I know that person does hate me for whatever reason that I care little for) but I care also not to know them. I don't hold any ill feeling towards that individual either. Person, I know, has no idea how to respond.

But I did a lot of reading into what makes these people tick. To be honest, if it wasn't because they will byte, they need a real warm and tight hug. But the bullying is about their needs. A hard lesson, but one now internalized.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #596)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 02:14 AM

603. Nadin

 



I'm not one of the criticize and bully crowd, but I'll still give you and everyone else that experiences it a hug

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Response to QC (Reply #601)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 02:16 AM

605. Sad

 

vitriol laced post there.

How do you get off that particular bandwagon and get back on the Hillary bandwagon?

I keep editing myself because I don't want to call anyone out and get banned, but that particular DUer has some interesting ideas about what makes a politician, a democracy and many other things.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #605)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 02:34 AM

609. That is probably the most bizarre and unexpected reversals I have seen on DU.

It is nearly pathological.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #609)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 02:41 AM

611. Odd, isn't it

 

that someone was so stridently opposed to Hillary Clinton, but is now all smiles about her campaign.

I wonder what her epiphany was.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #611)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 02:50 AM

613. It goes beyond odd into the realm of something else.

I was a big Obama supporter but after 8 years of his presidency, I have (I think) my own ample reasons for changing my opinion.

OTOH, my own opinion of Hillary has not changed.

Thank you for shining the light on this, Aerows. It is educational.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #613)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 02:58 AM

614. That's why I really do urge those who may have joined after 2008 to check the DU2 archives

during the primaries. See for themselves just what was going on, and by who. Also, Right around the time of the inauguration and afterwards. Most of those threads (except some in the LGBT group where a chunk were deleted) are still around. along with those who engaged in the worst of bullying of DU's LGBT members. It's a true eye-opener.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #620)

Fri Jun 26, 2015, 01:16 PM

667. Kinda makes what we have now look like a church lady group.

 

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #620)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:04 PM

674. That's interesting.

Funny, yet pathetic.

Wow.

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Response to QC (Reply #601)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 02:21 AM

607. yep

Another great example.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #600)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 02:20 AM

606. That was one of many in 2008

I think for people to really get an idea just how bad it was in 2008 during the primaries and who were the one engaging in the worst of the viciousness, they should really go back into the archives of DU2 and see for themselves. Because it was pre-jury system and there were mods instead a good chunk of the worst stuff was deleted but you ca still get an idea what was going on and who was driving the worst of it. Many of them are still here to this day; some under different names but most aren't.

People can make their own judgement on what's going on now in light of what happened then.

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Response to enigmatic (Reply #268)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:07 PM

428. "and this place still hasn't recovered from it"

I'll say. The two LGBT groups (well, I think only one existed at the time) most definitely.

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Response to enigmatic (Reply #268)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 12:00 AM

462. Note that my post-count hasn't gotten above 6000 yet...

Even though i've been here since '06, and used to be really active in here.

Too often now, it's a poo-flinging extravaganza, and i have little time in my life for it.

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Response to Rhythm (Reply #462)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 07:00 PM

583. I've got you beat!

I've been here since 2001 (joined to post in 2004) and I haven't hit one thousand yet!

I've been here long enough to see that bans come for some folks for the wrong reasons, some never come at all, and some come only after the member has been so egregious that he/she can't be ignored any more. It seems to be the way of the Internet, sadly.

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Response to ladyVet (Reply #583)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 07:29 PM

584. That's one of the reasons why I prefer unmoderated forums. There's less inequality and selective

enforcement of the rules. Also, in my experience, the conversation isn't any worse because of lack of moderation - in fact people tend to be nicer to each other from what I've seen. Unsurprisingly, moderation isn't able to force people to be pleasant.

I also wouldn't mind a place with daily/weekly posting limits. A lot of times an active 1% of the user base ends up dominating the discussion.

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Response to QC (Reply #265)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:19 PM

344. .

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #344)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:35 PM

355. !

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Response to QC (Reply #265)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 10:46 AM

544. VII

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Response to dbackjon (Reply #232)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:42 PM

362. I was banned from two groups in two weeks, both were the same subject,,

 

and all the banishment and censorship and hiding, all has one thing in common, the issue being discussed, and all those Ostracized were not Hillary supporters .

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #190)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 04:07 PM

285. NY SKIP always treated me nicely here. Even when others were

ragging on me he and a few others would be the ray of sun peaking through the horrible storm that happens when you start a discussion that is controversial or you mistakenly post a hoax.

I can't believe how nasty this whole place can be sometimes.

Plus how many times have people written apology posts about their behavior in the past several weeks or days or months? I've seen many of them. None of us are on our best behavior all the time. I have screwed up plenty.

I hate to think that one crazy post from a temporarily demented mind would get me kicked out of this place that I mostly consider "Home"

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Response to Maraya1969 (Reply #285)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 09:52 PM

406. You speak for me, thanks. n/t

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Response to Maraya1969 (Reply #285)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 02:28 AM

608. Well said!

 

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #190)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:59 PM

369. If people stopped answering my comments, I'd shut up. I just feel like I have to respond to all the

good people.

We are all trying to do the right thing for our world and for each other. And we are all learning.

For me this is a question of what the boundaries are, whether they are consistent as to what we can express and what we should keep to ourselves on DU. It would be a dull place if no one ever made any silly jokes.

But then we have to consider the line between a silly joke and a degrading expression or remark. It can be hard to decide where that line is. I think as I said that it would have been good to remove the post but leave NYC_SKP on the board and then maybe post a notice that we should be careful about insults that have sexual or gender connotations about candidates. We should all be careful about each others' feelings.

One Hillary fan posted a few lines from the article that Bernie wrote in the 1970s about women's liberation. The lines she posted gave the impression that Bernie was some sort of sex extremist and some sort of woman hater. That for me was far more sinister than what NYC_SKP did and not just because I am a big Bernie fan. The post by the Hillary fan was completely misleading.

If I read an insult or a joke that can be viewed as an insult, I judge the person who wrote the insult more harshly than the person being insulted if I think there is no reason for the insult. But if I read lines quoted from an article that suggest the article is about something that it is not really about, then I can be mislead and that is very unfair.

Hillary is a refined, well educated woman. We all know that. We are trying to choose the best Democratic candidate we can find. Each candidate has good qualities and bad qualities. But it is unfair to misrepresent the candidates or their writings or statements, far more unfair than to just throw some stupid epithet at them that has no meaning in reality but is rather just hot air.

This is a serious business. We really need the best candidate we can get. Apparently we have four contenders. Let's give each one due consideration, their policy proposals, their donors, their backgrounds, their personal lives, their philosophies, their personalities, their appearances (counts little to DUers but a lot to most non-DUers), their voides, everything. We want to choose a candidate who will do two things: 1) win and then 2) strongly lead the country in the right direction.

If we make a mistake and get bogged down in petty issues like what word is used about this one or that one, we will divide ourselves irreparably and lose the 2016 election. We cannot afford that.

So let's be tolerant of each other's mistakes as we go along. The stakes are very high, and we are all likely to be emotional at moments.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #369)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:17 PM

435. +1000

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #369)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 10:06 AM

532. Well said.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #369)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 02:36 AM

610. Well stated

 

JDPriestly, and from the heart.

We all make mistakes.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #164)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:53 PM

197. +1000.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #164)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 01:07 PM

210. There is no "polite way of saying the same thing

as the word c**t.". It is misogynist and demeaning to women.

If laughing at it is the standard of "normal," I am perfectly happy to be abnormal and to have no "normal" people as friends.

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Response to okasha (Reply #210)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 01:34 PM

230. I could probably think of a dozen polite ways to convey the same meaning.

I'm a woman myself and probably won't bother, but the fact is that the forbidden word list should be very short. Otherwise we will all find ourselves in trouble. And the creative use of language, the joking, the kidding around, will become less common and we will all be bored.

What is demeaning to women is the fact that the work that is considered to be women's work like teaching, etc., and the biological functions of women like nursing babies, like taking the birth control pill, like menstruating, etc. are all considered to make us less than men or have to be hidden or not talked about, etc.

A stupid word like the "c" word doesn't really bother me that much. The utter obsession in our society with the female breast, which apparently causes so much titillation in so many males that we have to keep them covered even when feeding our babies, now that is demeaning to women. The fact that I can't go for a walk in my neighborhood alone at night for fear of being raped. Now that is demeaning to me as a woman.

I could make a long list of things that are demeaning to women, and the "c" word would be far from the most important on it. I think the fuss about what we are called is a distraction from the real insults to us as women. That good pre-school childcare is so expensive and that women who work and have children have it so rough, those are things women should be upset about and screaming about, but the "c" word. Really????? Is it all that important? Not to me.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #230)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 02:18 PM

256. Really? Do you think you could also think up a dozen polite ways

to say n*****? Or f*****? Please, be my guest-- let's see a few of your "dozen polite ways" to say c**t.

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Response to okasha (Reply #256)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 09:33 PM

396. Not often I want to rec one of your posts.

today is that day

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #396)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 09:35 PM

397. Thankee.

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Response to okasha (Reply #397)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:42 PM

417. When you're right you're right.

I can't believe JD has been getting away with that ridiculous deflection. Like we can't read or something.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #230)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 04:37 PM

297. Nail meet hammer. nt

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #230)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:18 PM

343. Using the c word just allows us all to plainly

See how one feels it is on to demean women. It's not zero sum.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #343)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:40 PM

359. Please show me where NYC_SKP used the "C" word. Please.

Fact is he didn't. The post should have been removed because it was rude, by NYC_SKP should not have been banned.

Over a word he never used??? Come on. That makes us women look extreme.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #359)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 08:18 PM

376. That's what you want to hang your hat on to

Determine women are extreme. That statement makes me uneasy.

Nope sorry.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #376)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 09:46 PM

401. He did not use the word. and his post is taken out of context. But as I said, I am not answering

posts on this topic once I finish those now on my My Posts page because I think we have other things to talk about. I figure the Mods must be thinking about my statements on this issue by now anyway. I have defended NYC_SKP and that is that.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #359)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 05:14 AM

512. Seriously?

 

That's like defending someone who posts that "Barack Obama is just another nigg*r" By saying.."But...but...they didn't actually use the word 'nigger'!" Please tell us you're not doing that...

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #230)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 09:58 PM

409. I agree

Unfortunately, after the feminist movement took power over the word, that power has been given back to the hateful. Something that many just can't understand. It's something that the LGBTQ community did with the word "weer " What Dykes on Bikes did with the word "dyke" even having to go to court for the right to use it.

Thanks for this

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Response to okasha (Reply #210)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 08:05 PM

372. That word is demeaning to women. There are a thousand more clever, hidden ways to demean women.

Talking constantly about their clothes, their weight, their make-up, their size, etc. can also be ways to chop women down to size. Personally, I view the "c" word as showing more respect for the strength of a woman, her ability to take strong stances and hold true to her ideas than some of the other demeaning ways that women are spoken of.

Female candidates and the families of candidates need to look good. That means dressing well. But when the candidate's appearance becomes the primary topic of discussion, it is more demeaning than using the "c" word in my view.

In fact, the first time someone called my the infamous "b" word, my heart jumped for joy because I knew that I had not been viewed as an object of submissive femininity. I felt it was a triumph and that I had finally arrived in my profession.

If you saw me, you would understand why I felt that way.

So we are all different.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #372)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 08:20 PM

377. Then maybe accept there are many women

Who do feel it is demeaning to refer to women as cunning stunts. And it does not make them extreme or weak or their opinion less than.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #372)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 09:24 AM

524. Its not that the word is demeaning to women, its that the user is demeaning women with that word...

I don't care for Hillary Clinton (but I will vote for her if she gets the nod), but NYC SKP was using the word to demean Hillary Clinton as a woman by using using the pun on that word.

If someone one were to refer to you as a "c...... s....", how would you take it? Were you demeaned and reduced to the word or were you complimented?

I agree: NYC SKP has made an incredible contribution to DU. But he did a pretty rank thing with his punning stunt. Hedoes deserve a chance to explain things and apologize.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #164)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:00 PM

333. A-fucking-agreed!

 

A backstory is in order...

Back in 2004, I was a mod during the 2k4 primaries. It was surely a contentious time (Clarkies vs Deaniacs). The word "bitch" was used in regards to Condi Rice.

With the little shadowy icon next to my name (which indicated I was a Moderator), I posted this (forgive me, I cannot find the original link so I will paraphrase):

"In regards to Condi Rice, I think it's safe to say she is a 'bitch'".

I received a PM from EarlG, with the subject line, "I wish you hadn't said that".

Of course, a dressing-down was VERY much in order. He did just that. And I learned.

I guess my point is that, there is a VERY real learning curve here at DU. I came here in 2k2 as Liberal as they come (refresher: I stuffed envelopes for George McGovern in '72, Jimmy Carter in '76 AND '80, and for Mondale in '84, etc...), but hadn't mastered political empathy yet.

This website, of which I've been a member sine 2002, TAUGHT me that empathy. MY bona-fidas as a Liberal and a Democrat can not be disputed, but I fucked up. I was trying to be cute with humor, but fell flat on my face. I, of course, wasn't banned, but I learned.

I hope the admins will take NYC_Escapee's entire record into account, and reinstate him.

He's a good-un.

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Reply #333)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:46 PM

366. Thanks. It would never occur to me to talk or write certain words, but as I said in another post,

my husband learned his English in great part in the Air Force. It's pretty spicy. But I can't think of anyone who respects women more than he does. Words are just words. It's the feeling behind them that counts. And as you point out, compassion and empathy are learned.

So be it.

We are all learning on DU. I couldn't count how many times I have started a post, expressed an opinion, checked it out on the web for a link and then decided I was wrong or not quite right and either started over or simply did not post.

And we learn even more from each other.

We are always learning. I would say that DU is a movement of learning. For all of us.

I suspect that NYC_SKP really regrets the slight slip he made. He probably just thought it was funny.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #366)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 08:22 PM

378. Word are not just words. They are representative of

a persons character. If no one ever said a word we wouldn't know them.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #378)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 09:44 PM

400. On that we agree, but poor judgment is a character trait that many have.

It's tough to make the right call all the time. Some come closer to that goal than others.

But I'm not going to answer any more posts on this topic because I think we have more important things to discuss.

I don't want to be rude, but this topic has its limits.


I always feel like I have to answer most of the responses I get to my posts, but I think I will leave this topic.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #39)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:38 PM

172. I guess we had hoped that a progressive Dem forum would not be uncaring as to simply throw people

away for what was actually, a post that doesn't come close to some of what I have seen get a pass here.

We were clearly wrong, and maybe it's time to reassess how best to use the time spent here which apparently can be wiped out for one post interpreted the wrong way.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #172)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 01:53 PM

243. 'wiped out for one post interpreted the wrong way' - yes.

 

You have tag teams on the board who alert each other when someone on the 'enemies list' makes an ambiguous post - you can just imagine how it goes.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #39)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 02:06 AM

498. Says the person who congregate with the Cave Dwellers! You

have no say in this, especially if you are going to justify the banning of NYC.

Just go away!

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Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #21)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 01:53 PM

570. I find your OP an extremely worthwhile read even as I disagree with you here in general

 

I don't think you can post an intentional spooning of any racial, ethnic, gender or orientation slur and expect to get away with it.

I know your take is that SKP was somehow mocking the previous poster who was banned as a troll shortly thereafter. Here is where your Talk about reputation definitely comes in.

A poster known to have been a relentless critic of Hillary who posts something seeming to continue the pillorying of her using a spooned version of the c word? Well that would seem to a lot of people to be the right interpretation based on his reputation for attacking Hillary.

Since you know him IRL and say he isn't mysoginistic in general, I will take your word for that because I know you and I trust your opinion. However, he would not be the first person who wasn't a racist or misogynist who got so caught up about a disagreement with someone that they lost their temper and used a racist or misogynistic or other slur against them, or a spooning or euphemism of the term. Someone who does that is being discriminatory in that moment, whatever their normal behavior toward minority and diversity groups.

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Response to GusBob (Reply #12)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:19 PM

151. Please post in precise and verbatim terms NYC_SKP's prohibited post and the post before it.

He did not use the naughty, naughty, must-not-say "C" word. He did not mention Hillary.

He may or may not have been calling Hillary a naughty, naughty, unforgivable word. It's hard to say. He may have been just having a laugh. Let's don't be so pompous about things.

The rules are posted, but we have courts and hearings and we present and argue and discuss evidence. And sometimes we allow transgressors to just apologize and continue to live in polite society.

Let's temper everything with compassion and reason.

I don't think that was done here.

And, yes, I would defend a Hillary supporter who goofed a tiny bit just as I am defending NYC_SKP. It's my calling in life.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #151)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 01:36 PM

233. Here:

 

This was posted in another thread by a mirt member.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026777709#post347

Troll's post:

Feel the Bern.

If she's not ready to handle spontaneous exchanges,

she is not fit for the Presidency. This is all smoke and mirrors, IMO. Yes, I am voting for Bernie but just thinking of her even pulling such a cunning stunt is pretty shockingly appalling.

I'm not sayin'--I'm just sayin'...



Skip's reply:

Welcome to DU, Feel the Bern! And yes, it's a Cunning Stunt!

I say that to myself every day, over an over.

It can be a tongue twister!


Posted for informational purposes only.

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Response to JTFrog (Reply #233)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 02:11 PM

250. No use of the "c" word. No mention of Hillary in NYC_SKP's post. I can understand removing

the post, but not the ban on NYC_SKP. The rules are not clear enough on the use of circumventing expressions for a forbidden word to allow NYC_SKP to foresee that he might be banned if he repeated that "funny" tongue twister.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #250)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 03:08 PM

267. I think the intent was clear.

 

He had gone way overboard with the Hillary bashing and that post isn't fooling anyone who doesn't want to be fooled.

Once again people are trying to spin and contort this into anything other than what it is. I've seen it happen several times when long timers go off the deep end. Defending misogyny is seriously unappealing and inappropriate.






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Response to JTFrog (Reply #267)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 05:06 PM

301. The intent might just be the way you take it

when I read that, it didn't register the same way with me at all. It didn't offend me at all.

I think a lot of people tend to jump on things said by people they are not happy with (oppositional political views), and misconstrue their words, not intentionally, but emotionally.

I hate the c word. I am a woman. I didn't take offense at NYC_SKP's post. He was making a joke on what someone else said.

I have to say I've been a little bit taken aback by the strong push for Hillary by the forum admins. I think that has a lot to do with this banning. They were the ones who over-reacted to his post, and took the worst meaning from it they could...not necessarily the way he meant it.

But that is just my perception of what happened. Nobody really "knows" what is in another's head unless they spell it out for us. We all make a lot of "assumptions" of what other people mean by what they say.

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Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #301)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 05:16 PM

304. You've been taken aback by the strong push by the forum admins to support a Democratic Presidential

 

candidate? On DemocraticUndergound.com? Seriously?

Personally, I've been taken aback by the amount of hatred shown toward a Democratic Presidential candidate on DemocraticUnderground.com. And the amount of hatred coming from that poster in particular lately just makes the excuses and defenses being tossed out here that much weaker.





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Response to JTFrog (Reply #304)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 05:28 PM

307. Yes, I have been

Because it felt to me like they have been so 'for' Clinton (a centrist at best on economic and foreign affairs) that they are not even considering the viability of Sanders as a potential candidate who is far more "liberal" than Clinton, and stands for almost everything this forum should be interested in. You cannot say that about Hillary. Her strong points (according to her history) are being a woman and being somewhat socially liberal. So I'm surprised that being the admins, they are taking one side against the other, instead of remaining neutral so everyone feels comfortable here.


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Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #307)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 05:32 PM

309. "Her strong points (according to her history) are being a woman..."

 

Nasty sexist remark.

And we're done here.




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Response to JTFrog (Reply #309)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 06:00 PM

317. I am a woman and don't think it's sexist to be called one

Do you really not think many of her supporters are feminists? And possibly are disregarding her weaker points because they are so determined to see a woman in office?

I've been reading here for a long time and I see this from quite a few posters, starting with 2004 to today.

I sincerely want a woman President, but not just any woman. I'd love to see Warren as POTUS or VP, but I think Sander's history is stronger on the right issues. Warren has not always been as progressive as she is showing now.

For me it's about issues and support, not gender. But for many it is about gender, just like a lot of blacks voted for Obama for the first time because he was black. And I totally understand that.

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Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #317)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 06:29 PM

327. Sigh.

 


But for many it is about gender, just like a lot of blacks voted for Obama for the first time because he was black.


Do you realize how incredibly insulting that statement is? The policies put forth by all of the Democratic candidates are going to be far superior to anything the Republicans offer. That is what people voted for when they voted for Obama. The policies he talked about during his campaign. To suggest otherwise is to perpetuate right wing myths.

This woman will vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is. If that happens to be a woman, then that's just an extra bonus in my opinion.





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Response to JTFrog (Reply #327)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 06:58 PM

332. I've also repeatedly said here

that I will support Hillary in the general election, if she wins the primary. I will always support the dem party.

What I say about Hillary I say from my observations of her in her years in politics, not intended to insult (you are free to take it as an insult, but that is on you, not me) ,but intended to speak the truth.


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Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #332)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:15 PM

341. Your perception of the truth.

 

Which seems to be incredibly clouded if you are going to be so dismissive as to claim that Hillary's biggest strength is her gender.

You can pretend it's not insulting all you want, but words have meaning.


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Response to JTFrog (Reply #341)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:42 PM

363. I think I explained why I consider her gender to be one of her strongest points

I don't stand with her on any of her old positions...except for her being a woman and supporting some common social issues, primarily women's rights.

I see her changing her stance now on many important issues, but is it just campaign promises, or will she actually stick to this new direction she seems to be heading in the campaign?

I guess we will have to wait and see.

Or, you could try to explain to me why you support her (using examples from her past)? In another thread of course. Maybe you can show me where she has made a strong name for herself on important progressive democratic issues besides feminism. Maybe you can enlighten me. I'm open to it.

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Response to JTFrog (Reply #309)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 08:04 PM

586. You don't think that being a woman is a strong point? I consider it to be as strong a point as

being a man. But then I am a woman so maybe I'm just a little biased!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #586)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 09:48 PM

587. Well that's an interesting spin.

 

You go with that.

When someone throws out that women will vote for Hillary just because she's a woman and blacks will vote for Obama just because he's black, it is hardly being used in the context of being a woman is a strong point or being black is a strong point. It's insulting and demeaning to suggest that voters are either too stupid or too selfish to consider important issues that have nothing to do with the gender or race of a candidate when they vote.

I am a woman, but I am not biased. I don't believe that a person's strength is defined by their gender or their race.



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Response to JTFrog (Reply #304)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 10:28 AM

536. yes one above the others

 

they allow insults to the other ones that are not anointed almost every day. Very democratic?

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #250)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 05:25 PM

306. Who do you think 'she' is that SKP's new pal was referencing?

The thread was complaining that Clinton wasn't giving a press conference after her speech (like anyone does that, but whatever).

The thread was ABOUT Hillary. The spoonerism was "obvious" and indefensible.

The TOS is a good read and makes it quite clear what can earn a ban. He's been firing on all cylinders for awhile now.

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Response to JTFrog (Reply #233)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:24 PM

345. What?

That was *it*???????

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #345)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:33 PM

354. Yup, that was it

 

and many on this site did not see the horrible term in there.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #345)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 10:31 AM

537. yep

 

never said THE word as many wrongly insist.

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Response to GusBob (Reply #12)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 01:13 PM

216. Hmmm...no

The rules are posted. We agree on that.

The rules are clear? No, the rules are (I believe) intentionally) vague to give lattitude for various situations.

The rules are not applied or enforced consistently. This is in part due to the nature of the DU3 jury system; in part because the site is policed by humans; and in part because EarlG and Skinner interfere selectively. In the end, it's their house and their rules, but it seems like standards have become a moving target. Thake this thread, of rexample: GD has rules against "disruptive meta", but what is "disruptive" is not defined. So Cyberswede's gravedancing/news of ban hammer thread was allowed to stand; Flying Squirrel's poll on the topic was locked by the mods-- er, hosts--- as OT; my thread asking Earl G to clarify his reasoning was locked; this thread is allowed to stand.

If I were a wagering man, I'd bet a nickel that NYC-SKP will be allowed back conditioned on an apology and a promise to go and sin no more. I agree what he did was wrong, but I don't think it's banworthy, given his otherwise relatively clean record. But that's another point of contention with these rules you call clear: repeat offenders with multiple hides get a time out lasting no more than 90 days once their hide count reduces down below 5, while I've seen posters with otherwise spotless records in front of juries get the ban-hammer (most often from Earl G). So the when the admins (Skinner in particular) are asked about a specific poster or behavior, the person doing the asking is encouraged to alert and vote against that behavior on jurise, and the self-policing aspect of the site is emphasized; however, in a situation like this, a poster with a relatively clean record, but who does get annoying from time to time, makes a really stupid mistake, he's banned. Either the site is self policing or it's not. Let the jury do it's job. If the admins are going to drop ban hammers, they should focus on those who have multiple jury time outs, or those who are chronically going through life with 2-4 hides; or they should emphasize the benefits of ignore and trash thread and let the site police itself as it is allegedly designed; or they should admit that DU3 has become toxic and look at clearer rules or a modification of the current system.

...and yes, I'm in the market for another political discussion site. There are a lot of interesting folks here at DU, but this is just getting stupid.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #216)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 05:40 PM

312. There's always Discussionist...people who hate not being allowed to make

jokes about the c word will have more latitude there.

You might have to fight back against wingnuts, but you will find a less liberal atmosphere over there and could probably safely toss more insults over there, too.

SKP would find community with some of those guys in that they hate Hillary Rodham Clinton too...

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #216)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:28 PM

349. If you find

Another active liberal site, please let me know.

I'm not even specifying one that doesn't have issues, because every one I've seen has had.

This, however, is the only one I know of that's currently active.

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Response to GusBob (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:09 PM

429. Pathetic how the censorship brigade always hides behind that.

 

"You're not allowed to disagree with me, it says so in the rules!"

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Response to Jester Messiah (Reply #429)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 10:28 AM

535. It is pathetic.

I look at those posts and ask myself why they don't go off and build their own sites. Some here have declared it HillaryLand around here and any dissent will be quashed. We're going to have to see where this leads. If this becomes one big Hillary support group, I have no interest in that. Might as well be a site about growing turnips.

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Response to LuvNewcastle (Reply #535)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 10:32 AM

538. I so agree

 

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Response to GusBob (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:39 PM

452. Then why do so many people here get to stay after many violations? Either the rules apply to

everyone, or people are going to wonder why they don't. I think the admins need to be forthright with the membership here. A vast majority of DUers support Bernie Sanders right now. Approx 10% support Hillary Clinton. If NOT being a supporter of Clinton is going to get people banned, this place will be pretty empty. Otoh, the owners have the right to make the site whatever they want it to be, but Sanders supporters, the vast majority here, are beginning to feel they are not welcome. Just make a general statement that this site is a campaign headquarters for Hillary and most of us will honor that and move on to where we can advocate for the candidate we believe is right for this country. But don't pretend that the comment made by NYC was worthy of a ban, it was not.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #452)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 10:34 AM

540. we never seem to agree

 

but I certainly do on this, thank you so much for saying it.

GO BERNIE!

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:08 AM

4. amen -- thanks for taking the time to write this!

this is DU at its worst, and you're correct to focus on the issue of reputation b/c that's what this crowd targets in their attacks. it's the thing of value they can destroy.

THIS:

At some point you stop typing or texting and pick up the blasted phone to repair a relationship before it goes off the rails.


at the very least folks should be developing relationships outside of the PM system here. get to know people *outside* of this bubble, and cultivate relationships that foster understanding.

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Response to nashville_brook (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:13 AM

8. I will agree, DU is at it's worst, but I presume we have different reasons as to why that is.

For me, I don't think it kind to women on this board to have to put up with misogynistic posting.

It's a common here. Whether someone wants to believe it or not.

There are too many examples to count, yet when pointed out, there is always some reason it is not misogynistic and women are just overreacting. As we see here in this case. The excuses, the defense of it, in my mind puts DU at its worst.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #8)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:15 AM

11. please...give it a rest with the misogyny. everyone knows that's not what's at issue here.

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Response to nashville_brook (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:20 AM

17. It's obviously just an attempt to silence Sanders supporters.

 

Or some shit like that.

EarlG on the grassy knoll!

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #17)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:25 AM

22. banned for a tone complaint on a spoonerism.

eyes to the roll, indeed.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #17)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:03 AM

67. And pro-2nd Amendment types, too!

 

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #67)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 10:37 AM

542. oh yes

 

we are usually alert stalked and the admins say it does not happen. All you have to do as look at the hides, the alert text and some of the comments to know it does.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #17)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:52 PM

194. That was bit OTT, Rude, Nasty, Snarky.. yet it seems ok to the community here.

 

and it is also illustrative of the double standards and contradictions the rules of engagement are, all in the eyes of the beholder.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #17)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 01:12 PM

215. Oh, snap!

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Response to nashville_brook (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:33 AM

37. Thanks for proving my point. nt

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Response to boston bean (Reply #37)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:25 PM

157. If that is considered evidence of misogyny in your mind, that proves you have no idea what that

 

actually means. And I'm speaking from a position of a life time of real misogynistic abuse.

In the final analysis, anybody can alert on (and rationalize the alert every manner of accusation - label it anti-Semitic, misogynist, racist, ad nausea, solely based on and because of DISAGREEMENT ON POLICY.

That should always be considered as the basis of an alert - but too often it isn't.

That is very disturbing and quite frankly pathetic.



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Response to 2banon (Reply #157)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 04:12 PM

288. amen -- how can we expect problems of REAL misogyny to be taken seriously

when this sort of thing passes as legitimate.

i'm so tired of seeing the feminist movement crash and burn on this stuff. such a waste.

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Response to nashville_brook (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:39 AM

103. Really?...Then can you tell us just what IS at issue here?

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Response to whathehell (Reply #103)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 04:28 PM

295. gladly -- the poster was judged by a separate and unequal standard than an HRC supporter

the hide is fine with me -- but for site admin to ban a decade-long user for *repeating back* a spoonerism, in jest...that's just beyond the pale.

so, the issue is: to what extent are Sanders supporters being held to a different standard that puts them at risk of banning...and moreover, since the election is a LONG way away, what impact will this have on this community? are we willing to ban everyone we disagree with WHEN/IF we find that one thing we can alert on for tone?

is that what we've become?

i think we have much better things to do, and i think we're much stronger together than divided. but hey...not my board. i just watch in amazement.

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Response to nashville_brook (Reply #295)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:33 PM

353. I'm a Bernie supporter too, but I'm not sure you really know he was judged for not supporting HRC

Can it be proved in any way?

I understand how you feel, though -- I liked Skip too, and even though I do NOT like his implied slur,

I too thought an outright ban for this one time was too harsh.


FWIW, he CAN ask to be reinstated -- It's been done before and he's obviously well liked here.

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Response to nashville_brook (Reply #295)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:18 PM

437. This is not surprising though

 

And some of us have said this was going to happen for years.

This is not a bug, it is a design feature.

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Response to nashville_brook (Reply #11)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 10:35 AM

541. yes we all know what it is about

 

some can not even admit he never said THE word

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Response to nashville_brook (Reply #11)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 12:01 PM

555. "Everyone?"

 

I dunno... Calling the only female Democratic candidate a c**t seems pretty godammed misogynist to me!

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Response to boston bean (Reply #8)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:04 AM

71. Women are NOT overreacting, some women are, the majority of women here are

not seeing misogyny in ever little thing. And I do not wish to be characterized as a weak person simply because I am a woman. I have stated this before many times. You represent YOU, not every woman on this site, by a long shot. Speak for yourself when you are interpreting something YOU view as misogynistic.

There was no misogyny in that post, period. And I deeply resent women being used this way for political purposes. Enough of this nonsense. DU has gained a not very good reputation wrt to women's issues over the years due to this kind of overreaction to every perceived slight.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #71)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:20 AM

84. I deeply resent you speaking for me. I will speak as a woman. I've never met

a woman who likes to be referred to as a "c*unt"? You? If so, I would assume it is a tiny minority, and I am speaking for the majority.

I will write what I want, and express myself how I want. You have absolutely zero control over that, so stop trying.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #84)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:08 PM

132. You have spoken for 'women' and I am stating the fact that you speak ONLY for yourself.

That word was never used by NYC_Skip, and repeating that it was won't make it a fact. THIS is what I am talking about. Now you get personal.

I can read, even though I am a woman thank you, so I do not need ANYONE to interpret what I am reading for me, especially when it is a deliberate attempt to MISINTERPRET what was written.

I will write what I want, but will never falsely accuse someone of something they have not done, even if I don't agree with them politically.

Or as you 'implied' wrt to what I 'like' in this comment. A disgusting personal attack, and then you wonder who so many women here have never been part of the women's forum.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #132)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:17 PM

146. Don't tell me who I can and can't speak for.

You said that you weren't one of those weak women, implying many others who take offense are. That is to what I was referring.

So, you were speaking against other women, implying others who don't feel as you do are weak.

Now, again, one more time, stop speaking for me and telling me who and what I can or cannot speak of or about and how I choose to do so. That is all. Thank you very much.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #146)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:24 PM

156. And another personal attack! Stop speaking for me, that is what you were asked to do,

because you do NOT represent the views of many of the women here, which I know because many of them have told me so.

Speak for yourself, and stop deliberately misinterpreting what people say. I will correct any false statement about me, as I am now doing, 'you are speaking against women', when I see it, relentlessly.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #156)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:35 PM

167. What exactly is my personal attack. My pointing out that you writing that you are not

one of those weak women?

Is that a personal attack??

I am not deliberately misinterpreting anything you say, nor anything else here. I've written back to you your words, to which you don't speak to after writing them, but move onto other tangential points, which to me are trying to get me to stop speaking the way I want to speak.

How do you know I don't represent views of many women here? Are you speaking for them??? Why are you holding me to some standard you won't hold yourself to.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #167)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 03:49 PM

278. it's the interpretation

"I am not one of those weak women" was NOT, in my view, written to attack other women as weak. It was pre-emptive. It was a DEFENSE against an expected argument like "you are not ready to goto battle over the C-word? Then you are weak."

As I am reading this subthread I am seeing a lot of "I read that as an attack".

Whether the "misinterpretation" is deliberate or even a misinterpretation. Accusation and counter-accusation, tone of mutual hostility.

It should be a relatively simple matter if one person says "phrase X" and somebody comes back with "you just said phrase Y" to sort of calmly explain what was meant by phrase X. Language is apparently open to interpretation. Like this exchange that I read just yesterday. First, I was accused of saying something and I denied it, tried to clarify it, finally I get the reply "just say what you mean" which I found to be puzzling because I am quite sure I WAS saying what I meant. But so it goes. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6727266

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #278)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 04:12 PM

287. I read it just fine without a circular interpretation.

But thanks anyhow.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #156)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 05:59 PM

316. Personal attack?

 

Um...huh?

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #316)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 06:09 PM

322. Were you talking to me?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #322)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:02 PM

335. Well, I responded to your post...

 

...so yeah.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #335)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:48 PM

368. No, actually, you responded to what you believe is important. Nothing in my post was addressed by

your response. And the same goes for THIS response, nothing in my post was addressed AGAIN proving my point, that the real issues facing women in this world today, are not really that important here on DU, most important, what will get over one thousand responses, is 'who said what that I can be offended by'.

How truly sad that is.

I wish we get that many responses to a post about the plight of women in Afghanistan.

But having made an attempt to get some interest in women's ACTUAL issues here on DU, I gave that up a long time ago, and go elsewhere to discuss the real issues women in this world are facing.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #368)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 08:44 PM

381. No, I responded to your accusation of "another personal insult."

 

You made that accusation in response to a post containing nothing that a reasonable person could construe as a personal attack. I thought you might want to explain that frankly bizarre accusation, but apparently not. If you're going to say something nasty about someone, maybe you should back it up when called on it...

Also, don't presume to tell me what I believe. You're not qualified.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #381)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 09:21 PM

391. Trivia, again you prove my point. Comments on the internet, I am repeating this because you seem to

be still missing the point, have ZERO to do with addressing the issues, which I outlined once again as I have done before here on DU to no avail, which women are faced with DAILY, HOURLY in the world today.

Again, you ignore the points regarding the actual, real life plight of women in the world, and again, focus on what is important to YOU. 'Someone on the internet said something I am offended by'.

Thank you, I always like it when I don't have to go looking for examples of the points I am making.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #391)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:35 PM

416. Ah, I see: falsely accusing another DU member is "trivia."

 

Your inability to acknowledge that you fucked up (and then hiding behind sanctimonious poutrage) is a lot more illustrative than anything I've done here. Just because someone calls you out on a shitty false accusation against another poster doesn't mean they don't consider the many and serious issues facing women important. They just have the ability to focus on more than one thing at a time .

You came in to a thread about reputation and the situation with NYC_SKP, got into a barely-on-topic pissing match with another poster, slandered that selfsame poster, then flailed embarrassingly at me with some nonsense about "ignoring" the plight of women. Spare me. If I "ignored" that very important topic in this thread, it's because it's not the goddamn topic of the thread. Not because it isn't important to me, your desperate attempt at bullshit amateur psychoanalysis-by-internet notwithstanding.

You want to have a discussion on the plight of women worldwide? Start a fucking thread...or select an existing one that's already about that subject. Don't try to hijack someone else's.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #416)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:47 PM

420. As I said, internet chit chat doesn't help women who have real issues. And another example of the

point I made.

Thank you again!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #420)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:11 PM

432. No, it's NOT an example of the point you made (obviously).

 

But given your completely fabricated false accusation of personal attack levied against another poster, it's pretty obvious you're going to see what you want to see, regardless of how far that is from reality.

I'm done here. This is a waste of my time...and this is why there's an Ignore button.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #156)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 09:21 PM

390. Sabrina, make a poll

Ask women if they like to be called the c word. Go on. I don't think it's at all far fetched to assume they don't. In fact, I think it is pretty bizarre to think otherwise. Now, if you happen to like it yourself, have at it, but you don't get to decide the rest of the site needs to be subject to verbal abuse. The irony of course is you determine mere differences of opinion amount to personal attacks against you, while insisting other have no right to object to bigoted slurs.

Know this. You don't speak for me EVER.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #390)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 09:32 PM

395. Why on earth would I want to do that? No one was called that word. And frankly, here is what I am,

as a woman, far more concerned about, trying AGAIN to get some interest in the REAL issues that face women today. I have worked with women who have been adversely, putting it mildly, affected by our Foreign Policies, left without husbands, children, homes, income, ending up as refugees in countries that are already overburdened with the blowback from our WARS and INVASIONS. Iraqi women, once enjoying rights we are still trying to get here.

Afghani women, who have been shouting out to the world for help, whose dire situations are made even worse, by OUR WARS.

And Libyan women, Syrian Women, Palestinian Women. Sorry by your 'outrage' du jour holds no interest for me, sticks and stones compared the real suffering of women here, and around the world, is the reason why many of us women here on DU go elsewhere to talk about what can be done, starting with our own government, to help these women, and what can be done to help women in this country so badly affected by policies like Welfare Reform. But I know you are not interested in this issues, so I'll stop there.

Excuse me if I can't conjure up the 'outrage du jour' over a comment made on the internet.

And no one was called the 'C' word, so your request is irrelevant to this issue.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #395)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:03 PM

410. "Real issues'

You say that often, yet when the Hobby Lobby decision came down, you were no where to be seen in the discussion. You don't get to determine what real issues for me are.

Calling it "my outrage du jour" is disingenuous. EarlG banned NYCSkp. Bigoted terms violate TOS. Now if you think that unacceptable, no one is forcing you to participate on a site where one is expected to refrain from such speech.

This outrage isn't mine. You are the one outraged that Boston dared to say she found the term insulting. This OP is in outrage to NYCSkp's banning. The outrage is yours for insisting a difference of opinion amounts to a personal attack.
You are outraged that some women here are expressing their own views.

If you only care about war, how is it you are even in this thread engaged in outrage that Boston and Lizzie had the nerve to voice an opinion you don't approve of? Because you are in this thread showing that what you object to is women who speak out for their rights and demand respect. That is your outrage. You have devoted a good deal of time here in outrage that some women refuse to accept being degraded and debased. That is your outrage, and you have dozens of posts in this thread expressing as much. You have demonstrated that you have no shortage of time to devote to outrage on this particular subject.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #410)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:29 PM

414. I'm sorry that you find me more worthy of interest than the real issues facing women today. Your

comment only confirms my point. WOMEN HAVE REAL ISSUES. They are NOT 'who said what on the internet'.But if that's what you are interested in, that's your right I suppose.

I'm flattered to an extent, that you are so intrigued by ME that you follow what I discuss on DU.

I will repeat this for you. I do not discuss serious issues re women on DU. It is not a forum that is known for its support of women.

We leave you alone to focus on what is important to you. Many DU women are very busy in RL where it counts and are more than happy to leave DU's womens forums to their own devices.

Sorry to burst your 'gotcha' moment, but if you paid attention to me and many other women here, you would not have made that utterly ridiculous 'observation'.

Again an example of why so many women on DU stay out of DU's forums.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #414)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 01:53 AM

495. "It is not a forum that is known for its support of women"

I wonder why? Perhaps it has something to do with some going around telling feminists that everything they care about isn't real, that they aren't "real women." Perhaps it has to do with someone claiming that corporations planted women and people of color in the Democratic Party to divert it from its true mission. Perhaps it has to do with the fact some people see most of humanity as beneath them, as less than real, and whose lives are worth less. Perhaps it has to do with some insisting that every issue related to women's rights--whether language, rape, domestic violence, or reproductive rights--isn't important.

You claim to be too busy to care about issues related to misogyny in this country and care about "real women" overseas, yet you have managed to spend many hours in this thread on an issue you claim isn't real. You suggest there is something other than real about concerns over language on the internet, yet you devote a good portion of your time on that same internet. You aren't in Syria or Iraq helping women. You post online, on the very internet you insist is less than real.
You have demonstrated you have plenty of time for this discussion. You simply choose to spend it telling members of this site that they are less than "real," than their concerns don't matter because you and you alone are fit to determine what has value. You focus on Doctor Oz. I care about domestic violence, rape, and human trafficking, but my issues aren't real. What is real is to pay homage to great men--be they accused rapists fleeing justice or Republican charlatans promoting quack diet cures. They are who really matters. The lives of the rest of us, insignificant, not "real."



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Response to BainsBane (Reply #410)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 12:00 AM

463. Nailed it.

 

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #395)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 10:54 PM

424. Can I add Mexican women to the list?

 

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #424)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:01 PM

425. Yes, and women in all war torn areas of the world, where rape and abuse and death and poverty

are the results of these wars. I mentioned the countries where WE are responsible for the plight of those women, who before our 'interventions' had pretty decent lives, Iraq and Libya eg. Because I believe we have a responsibility to them.

But of course there are so many other places in the world, including right here in the US where women's issues are not being addressed while we PRIVILEGED people here think that a misplaced word is the biggest issue women are facing in the world today. But I have never had much success raising these issues with the women's groups here, so I don't.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #425)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:07 PM

427. Well I have been covering the story of Nestora Salgado

 

a United States Citizen, who is a political prisoner in Mexico. I guess she got what she deserved for standing up for First People's rights!

This is not an issue that MOST US Media will cover... or know how you deal with that.

I posted a short note on the upcoming elections on Sunday. You'd think that a country where a civil war could lead to a river of refugees would matter, but not really.

So if we do not care about that (NAFTA, PLAN MERIDA), why the hell do you expect people to care about Iraq, where we sent our troops?

of course, but I actually mean it. People really do not give two shits about it. Not until it affects them directly.

Anyhoo, what's on the tube tonight? (Seriously, I need to kill a few hours before going to pick my mother at the airport)

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #427)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:21 PM

440. Well, you care and I care, and lots of DUers do care, but my point was that the women's forums here

have a reputation of not caring about such issues, but of focusing on trivia, yes trivia, and they have taken over women's issues here on DU and most of us, have just let them have it their way. Because to argue over a misplaced word for hours and hours and hours, days sometimes, is simply a waste of time that could be better spent, doing what YOU are doing eg, or what I may do in RL

The problem with our abdication of the women's forums here is that they have succeeded in turning women's issues into 'look what that guy, who doesn't agree with me politically, just said'.

DU is not the place to discuss real women's issues so we don't.

The important thing here though, is the USE of women for political purposes. THAT I find to be despicable, and it done every election cycle.

If NYC_SKP had said something along the lines of 'who cares about the women in Iraq' THAT would have bothered me as a woman, or 'who cares about Mexican women' you get the point, that would have bothered me. But to claim that women are being protected by banning him for what he DID say, shows a huge lack of understanding of women and the issues they face. THAT may be because most of us DU women allowed the few to take over the issue here.

I don't know what's on TV but hope you find something interesting.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #440)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:26 PM

443. Well we could TRY to start those conversations

 

and ones on infrastructure... you know REAL Issues. What they have done is what academics at times do, it is valid, but does not buy the groceries at the end of the day.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #156)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 12:02 AM

465. What personal attack? Why are you defaming DUers with this bullshit?

 

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #132)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:48 PM

188. The "L'etat c'est moi" dilemma of DU

 

It's a pet peeve of mine on DU. If someone is part of a community, they claim to speak for the entire community. Disagreement with them means you disagree with the ENTIRE community. It's a cheap shielding tactic meant to silence opposition and evade criticism.

In another SKP thread yesterday, I saw a female poster get called a "useful tool" because she didn't agree with another one of these posters who think their individual opinion represents all women.

I thought that was a far more profound attack on someone's womanhood than SKP's ill-advised spoonerism.

But, of course, it is not only allowed, but approved of and encouraged. If people want to talk about attacks on women on DU, they could do a lot worse than look in the mirror and observe how women posters who don't agree are dismissed, belittled, denigrated, and attacked around here.

It's always the same posters doing it.

I just roll my eyes. You can't purchase self-awareness at a 7-11, unfortunately.

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Response to Prism (Reply #188)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:55 PM

200. so

Much
This

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Response to Prism (Reply #188)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 01:25 PM

223. Thank you, good post. I agree that women are attacked here constantly for not

agreeing, no matter how civilly, with some of those who believe they speak for all women here.

I certainly have been attacked, even attacked for saying 'as a woman'. I'm not supposed to make a statement of fact even when it is relevant to the conversation.

I think people have had it with the portrayal of women here frankly. We are NOT weak, and you are correct that calling a female poster a 'useful tool' because of a disagreement, is far worse than SKP's comment. Using women for political purposes isn't going to help anyone's campaign, quite the opposite, we are not blind.

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Response to Prism (Reply #188)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 03:34 PM

272. I've been an admirer of your posts since 2008

Very glad you chimed in today and I agree with you.

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Response to Prism (Reply #188)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 09:16 PM

389. No, people speak for themselves

and because you don't care to deal with the content of the speech, you accuse them of trying to speak for everyone. In Boston's Bean's case, she explicitly said "for me," which makes your ploy particularly weak. On her post about the c word universally regarded as the most offensive term to use against a woman, one doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out women don't like being called it. What you really mean to say is you don't want to hear from feminists who believe women deserve respect, just like you became angry when I said black voters themselves determine who best speaks to their interests.

Which misogynist attacks you happen to find worse is completely irrelevant. Now who is trying to speak for women? Why would you even presume that was your position to judge? One attacks a woman simply for being a woman, using the foulest and most offensive term in the English language to do so. The other attacks someone's behavior. Since you aren't a woman, you don't get to decide which forms of misogyny matter and which don't. Someone recently told me to "check my privilege." Too bad he doesn't take his own advice. In one full stroke, you denounce someone giving their opinion as trying to "speak for women," while having the nerve to substitute your own views when you aren't a woman at all. You did the same thing last week by announcing that being gay gave you special standing to address issues concerning black voters.


Now, the poster you insisted had no right to an opinion did not ban NYCSkp. EarlG did. I suggest you address your concerns to the administrators.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #389)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 09:29 PM

394. "What you really mean to say is"...

Ugh. Beautiful. Telling people what they "mean" to say and then arguing against it.

It's pretty funny.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #389)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 07:32 AM

516. I admire your ability to hallucinate exchanges out of thin air

 

It's almost like cooperative storytelling. With yourself.

I'm at pains to understand who you think you're replying to. Not me, because I condemned Skp's language and said he was asking for a ban. I did so right here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6778002

I wasn't talking to Boston Bean. In fact, I was simply backing up a few things Sabrina observed and commented upon, adding my own observations from this week and DU in general.

Prism speaks for Prism. If you asked me what is worse, using an unpleasant spoonerism or trying to attack a woman's very agency, I pick the attacks on agency. Guess what? I get to have that opinion! And nothing you can say can stop me from having it. I don't even have to be a woman to have that opinion. Just a human. Must chap your ass a bit, sure. But, fortunately, we haven't appointed anyone Guardian of Allowable Opinions around here, though I can see you forever angling for the job. Being a woman doesn't mean getting a special scepter that instills in you the power to bully other women, ya know. I'll back up Sabrina all day long.

I'm only slightly surprised that you haven't slowed down one bit after you racially beclowned yourself to the point where even your friends winced in your direction and had to bop you on the nose with a metaphorical newspaper. I mean, I was embarrassed for you at that point. And yet here you are, undimmed by shame or any attempt at self-reflection since then. Worse, you're trying to fashion a new fantasy conversation that happened where I spoke for black people. I didn't. I spoke as a gay man on an issue that had parallel overlap with a black issue (both LGBTers and PoCs were in the same boat with Sander's speech). This isn't even a subtle thought, and yet it continues to elude you.

Anyway, I look forward to the next imaginary conversation I'm certain to have with you in reply. It's always a thrill to learn what my mouth is saying in someone else's head, and god knows, you'll be certain to tell me.

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Response to Prism (Reply #516)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 10:54 AM

545. Thank you, you have saved me the trouble of responding to a similar post that was directed to my

name, but had zero relationship to anything I said or thought. You have stated beautifully what I would like to have said in response to this 'tactic' of conjuring up imaginary dialogue, then attributing it to other posters.

I noted that you were told that because 'you are not even woman' you had no right to have an opinion which is a simply stunning statement imo.

But this is what has become accepted here on DU as 'feminism'. Which is why so many of us women do not participate in the 'women's forums' and never have.

It is an attempt at 'thought control' which appears to have worked as so many people here are now afraid to utter any word that might in any way be construed as 'anti-woman'.

Excellent post, it speaks for me far better than I would have stated it so I won't bother to respond the 'imaginary conversation' that was directed to me and if you don't mind, let your excellent response suffice to express what I would said, only not so well.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #545)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 04:56 PM

631. Consider them our Bizarro characters

 

There's Prism and Sabrina, but then there's also BainPrism and BainSabrina. I'm always excited to watch BainPrism at work. He's a wily guy, always saying outrageous things. A sassy fellow, who never hesitates to oppress with his cruel dismissal of Serious Justice.

I bet he even wears a dark cloak and lurks in the DU shadows, waiting to pounce on whatever innocent happens his way.

He is my shadow personality. I want to be him *wistful sigh*

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Response to Prism (Reply #631)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 11:01 PM

632. Lol, that's a good way of putting it! Sort of like an imaginary friend! Or maybe, and imaginary

enemy ...

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Response to Prism (Reply #516)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 09:53 PM

588. Well done.

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Response to Prism (Reply #188)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 09:28 PM

393. Once again, you have skewered the real issue magnificently! Bravo! nt

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #393)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 01:35 AM

491. Exactly. I have never put anyone on ignore, and with rare exceptions have generally been willing to

engage even those other people won't engage, but reading this thread where so many women are telling this small group they do not speak for them, yet they don't seem to notice, or hear what other women are telling them, I think engaging in any kind of discussion is a waste of valuable time. That was my initial reaction to the Women's forums here when I first came to DU. And I abided by it, except when they came to GD and began to try to dominate the issues there.

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Response to Prism (Reply #188)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 12:11 AM

470. Yup

 

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Response to Prism (Reply #188)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 12:11 AM

471. yup

 

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #132)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 10:40 AM

543. Thank you

 

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #71)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:10 PM

133. Gods, Sabrina,

thank you for writing that! I'm sick of a handful of women acting as if they represent me. I represent ME. They represent themselves.

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Response to pecwae (Reply #133)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:19 PM

152. You're not the only one pecwae, from what I have been hearing from other women here for a long time

is that THEY are sick to death of being portrayed as weaklings who grab the smelling salts for every perceived 'slight' and it diminishes the real issues also, which is another reason why it is so bad for women in general.

This situation eg, creates the impression that a woman who is strong enough to run for the WH isn't strong enough to withstand a comment on the internet that has been completely misinterpreted. And that affects ALL women.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #152)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:35 PM

169. sabrina, you are one of DU's gems

 

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #169)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 02:37 PM

261. Yes, she is.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #169)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 05:55 PM

315. +1 a whole bunch!

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #169)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:13 PM

339. Amen to that! n/t

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #152)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 03:14 PM

269. Nope, she's not the only one.

One can call me what they will. I really don't care. I'm confident in my identity and my worth in the real world where there is so much more to fight against and advocate for as you've pointed out in one of your earlier posts.

I don't pretend to know what sort of hurt those who are so severely wounded by the use of certain words here- have suffered in their lives, but I do think the hurt must have been to the bone for them to live with such anger which seems to me to be all day every day.

So much energy wasted, when we all could be out there helping real women make real social and economic gains. Because it is then that I think we will gain real parity with men. In fact, I think if we weren't so often our own worst enemies and that if we could unite- the possibilities of what we could do as women would be infinite.

But as a woman, I refuse to be angry about being a woman and the lot we currently have in life.

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Response to notadmblnd (Reply #269)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 01:54 AM

599. Hear! Here! Well Said!

 

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #152)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 07:42 PM

364. Amen, Sistah!

Oh wait, was *that* sexist??!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #152)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 08:13 PM

375. You are right on!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #152)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 03:10 AM

503. Sabrina 1

You Go! On a Roll

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #152)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 05:08 AM

510. Brava!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #152)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 10:01 AM

529. ...!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #152)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 06:16 PM

580. I feel the same way...

before I say anything more on the subject. I feel the need to put in this disclaimer for those who think they speak for me.

**No I do not like the C*** B**** word or any other slur, nor would I like to be called that (even tho I have been many times by male and females).****

I also realize that there are real issues that need to be addressed. Poverty, income inequality and health care rights are just a few. So I don't have time to get worked up over words when actions by those in power have been a huge detriment to women for a very long time.
When I went to the ERA rally in Washington last year, not one person spoke about the problem of slurs against women. It was about poverty, income inequality, health care rights and getting the ERA ratified. This doesn't mean I like those words, all it means is that they are low on my list of things that need to be addressed and changed.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #152)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 09:56 PM

589. You go, girl!

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Response to pecwae (Reply #133)

Sat Jun 6, 2015, 12:15 AM

472. Many folks are tired of the bullshit

 

and it is exactly grade A bullshit.

You are not alone

And to edit for those folks, I am talking for myself, and what I have been told by other women, but I am talking for myself. I would never presume to talk for otehrs, UNLESS I am given permission to do that.

But while they spend days on a world, we have real issues to deal with, including poverty and how that affects REAL WOMEN every day. They won't speak about that. I will... though not here. They are but one reason.

Perhaps something good will come out of it. and we will start talking issues... one can dream.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #71)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:26 PM

159. Excellent post and says it exactly the way it is. There are a few on DU that

do give women a bad name with their over reaction to what they and few others perceive as misogyny. I would say they are over sensitive but that would be perceived as misogynist. Then again I suppose over reaction will probably set off an alarm.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #159)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 12:34 PM

166. Thank you. In many ways it is the fault of women like me and so many others who told me they feel

the same way. We simply avoided the women's forums here as they were wrought with conflict, infighting etc. So rather than speak up, many of us just focused on the main forums.

But enough is enough and this incident highlights the image that has been created by a few people here of women in general, using Women for political purposes.

Thanks for your post, and it says a lot that people have to 'watch what they say' here. Well, this woman won't be doing that, anywhere.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #71)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 01:29 PM

227. Why is it weak to stand up against slurs? Are just women weak when they say it's unacceptable or is

it also weak for gay or AA people when they object to slurs?

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Response to seaglass (Reply #227)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 01:49 PM

240. THIS topic is about women. To react to every little perceived slur, 'perceived' is the operative

word, is WEAK. This banning sends a message that the woman running for president isn't tough enough to withstand a comment on the internet which a few have interpreted as a slur.

THAT is bad for ALL women. I am supporting Sanders in this race, but I have met Hillary and there is no way this represents her. She is anything but weak, she has handled some of the most vile attacks from the Right throughout her political career, so the portray her as someone who needs to be protected like this, from something most people didn't even SEE, is doing not only HER but all women a huge disservice.

If people really think women are so sensitive that they must be protected like this, no wonder we can't get the rights that we should have had a long time ago. Clearly the perception is 'they can't handle it'. AND I RESENT THAT as a woman.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #240)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 03:24 PM

271. This topic is about NYC_SKP getting banned but I get it if you don't want to expand your theory

of "weakness" to other groups.

NYC_SKP getting banned has zero to do with whether Hillary is tough enough, the idea is hilarious. Hillary is not being "protected", she doesn't even know we exist. People are objecting to sexist slurs being used on DU and many have acknowledged that it was - even women in the Bernie Group. People who stand up for themselves are not weak.

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Response to seaglass (Reply #271)

Fri Jun 5, 2015, 06:52 PM

329. No, you don't get it, you don't get it at all. The game of using women for political purposes is

not a game women are going to play. DU has had a longtime Reputation of not being the place to discuss the serious issues facing women, no