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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOne haircut no Romney menfolk ever had
the one in bootcamp. Not Willard, or pappy, nor grandpappy, nor Willard's FIVE sons: Biff, Barf, Tad, Turd, and Thurston the IV (whatever their names are).
11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)Faygo Kid
(21,478 posts). . . to enthusiastically send other people's kids to their deaths.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)That is an odd line of argument.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)very few families can avoid being drafted in entirety
bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)So McCain isn't a Chicken-hawk
freshwest
(53,661 posts)No wonder Crapantsfever supports him.
So he served but if you bother to see all his Dad did for him(admiral in the Navy at that time) Including making sure he graduated from Annapolis, he was the bottom of the class and his jet was the one that started the massive fires on the USS Oriskiney during the Vietnam War which cost the lives o many very brave Saliors and while the fires were still burning he got to leave the ship and leaft his shipmate behind to fight the fires he started by the way. He pre-primed his jet before starting it (Go ahead use Wikipedia and look it up in is in the Naval inquiry into the fire)!! You might also look at what he did to stop any further searches for the POW's and how he treated the grieving wives (you can find that on YouTube) Mc Cain is a bloody stain on all those Veterans who served our country! Also the N.Vietnamese broke him and he made videos disparaging his fellow soldiers and the United States.. I could go on but... I did my home work will you???
Scuba
(53,475 posts)The rest, not so much.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)and a shameless, foolish old man as a presidential candidate, but at least he had the testicular fortitude to put his ass on the line and survive a prison camp with his honor and dignity intact when he was a younger man. Too bad he sold all that honor and dignity out some 40 years later.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)He wanted him CMed.
McCain's actions did more than demoralize his fellow troops and POWs, they may have gotten people killed. He completely broke, he gave up everything: radio codes, information that might have compromised troop movements and objectives, made statements against his fellow troops, acted in a way that endangered his fellow POWs.
That's the difference between a heroic POW like James Stockdale and someone like John McCain. McCain folded like a deck-chair, Stockdale slashed his own face with a razor to keep the V-C from using him in propaganda films then spent the rest of captivity so tormenting his captors that they shattered his legs and left him in a bathtub with two infected unset legs so they'd never heal right or allow him to walk again without excruciating pain. Stockdale saved lives and banged the drum after the war to make sure that every POW and MIA was looked for.
One of these men is a hero who has been held up as the ideal of how to survive a long-term in captivity (They teach Stockdale's captivity actions in the service academies.) and one of the most-decorated officers of the Vietnam conflict.
The other is John McCain.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)I'm not sure I could have been as strong as Stockdale.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)It's in most of his bios. I'll see if I could dig one up.
I've read a lot on the guy, it started as curiosity over who the heck this guy running with Perot was and he became somewhat of a hero. He made no secret of his dislike of McCain.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)SOB. Wow. What a brave man.
bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)He is despicable but he did go there, which in some sick fashion disqualifies him as a ChickenHawk. I was drafted but refused to go to Nam so I'm labeled a traitor. Upon edit do you know why his shipmates called him Ace?
jmowreader
(50,555 posts)Unfortunately for McCain, he was sitting in all five of those planes when they went down.
bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)Last edited Fri May 11, 2012, 11:26 PM - Edit history (1)
jmowreader
(50,555 posts)I could be wrong, but I know the reason McCain is called Ace by his shipmates is he destroyed at least five American aircraft.
The question is, how many do aviators who aren't sons of admirals get to destroy before they're reassigned to the mess deck?
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)knife. That is to say THICK.
"Pre-primed." What is that... priming it before you prime it? Is that all you know about the Oriskany Fire? For that matter, what do you know about jet engines? I'll tell you all you need to know, and take this for what it is... information from someone with almost 500 days of flight deck experience.
You're claiming (without really knowing what you're claiming obviously) that McCain intentionally caused his A-4 to spit fire when he started it. You're also claiming, (again unintentionally since you DON'T KNOW how flight deck operations go) that McCain's aircraft, while spitting fire, cooked a bomb hanging from the wing of the plane parked behind it that eventually exploded.
May I give you a clue? Since the advent of jet engines, no aircraft on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier has ever started its engine while its exhaust was pointed at another parked aircraft ESPECIALLY if that aircraft had live weapons hanging from its wings. That's just now how it goes.
McCain's aircraft was parked on the port side aft. It was TOW (I'm going to make you look this term up yourself). An AO, testing the bomb-rack on an F-4 Phantom parked on the starboard side aft caused a ZUNI rocket to shoot across the deck, hit the drop tank (an auxilliary tank meant to be dropped when it was empty) on McCain's plane and ignite it. McCain was simply sitting in his A/C waiting for his turn to taxi (and I'm not talking about a Yellow Cab) to the catapult.
When his plane ignited McCain kept his cool, and was able to climb over his canopy and exit his plane by jumping from it's radome (yeah maybe you should look that one up too) to the ground.
I know men who were there that day. Most of them knew men who died in the aftermath. Your stupid bullshit post denigrates those brave men who lost their lives fighting the fire, and those men who died below the flight deck when bombs on OTHER planes cooked off and exploded.
Post about things you know.
"I did my homework will you???" is fucking laughable. Fucking laughable and sad to the Nth degree.
I've got a few minutes... post and tell me ALL YOU KNOW about flight deck operations in the US Navy... I say a few minutes, because I think that's about all it will take for you to tell me ALL YOU KNOW.
bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)It was without a doubt the most exciting albeit anxiety ridden job I've ever done.
Ever seen a man sucked into a jet intake? I have. I didn't know him. He went in head first and when they pulled him out of the intake all that was left was hips and legs. Flight operations came to a complete halt because he was sucked into the port intake of an A-6 that was on the catapult. 20 minutes later after the flight deck was hosed off and the plane was sent to the hangar deck because his body ruined the port engine, flight ops resumed as if nothing happened. To lose one man out of over 5,000 wasn't really that big a deal and you'd NEVER hear about it on the news.
I don't expect you to understand what it's like. Nor do I expect you to understand what it's like to work with jet engines running all around you. I certainly don't expect you to express any kind of knowledge pertinent to the fire on the Oriskany but that's ok. I forgive ignorance because the term isn't the same as stupid... Flight deck operations are like a ballet, and unless you've danced there, you have no way of knowing what they entail.
Rain? We flew. Snow? We flew. Rough seas? We flew. The flight deck of the USS America (may she rest in peace at the bottom of the ocean) was 62 feet from the water and in the North Atlantic I saw green water come over her bow because it was so rough. We flew.
Go hmm. I can excuse that because you're not stupid, you're just ignorant.
caraher
(6,278 posts)There are a thousand reasons to loathe McCain without this idiotic urban legend about him starting the Oriskany fire. Not everything bad that happened within a mile of McCain was his fault, and I'd hope that Democrats would pride themselves on actually valuing facts and the truth over innuendo and "truthiness" as an important distinction between us and the Republicans of our day!
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)must have been like to live through. Truly and sincerely, thank you for your service and the immensely educational value of your post.
panzerfaust
(2,818 posts)Odd then that what you are happy to agree was "the Oriskany Fire" actually happened on the Forrestal.
The Toasted-O fire was a completely different episode, not involving McCain, which resulted from a mag-flare ignition.
Indeed, the Toasted-O was on her first deployment after being refitted from that fire, and provided support for USS Fireball in her time of need.
Also - the ZUNI hit White's A-4, not McCain's.
AND - McCain escaped by climbing down the refueling boom (long and walkable - look it up).
Nahant's post does, in fact, honor those who stayed and fought the fires, not the asshole who went down to the ready room and watched the fires on TV, before deserting the still-burning ship the next day for some "welcome R&R" (See my post below.)
Somehow I think I've got more time in the chow line ...
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,325 posts)Now don't you go editing after flinging around "stupid and ignorant" accusations.
Ignorant indeed.
panzerfaust
(2,818 posts)that he crashed a plane during training in Corpus Christi. He claimed the 'engine quit' - but factcheck notes;
"McCain and others have written that the plane went down in Corpus Christi Bay when the engine quit, but Navy investigators concluded that the engine was still running when the plane hit the water, and said that the accident resulted from pilot error."
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/10/mccain-found-at-fault-in-1960-navy-plane-crash/
If you weren't the son of one famous admiral, and the grandson of another, that would have ended your flying career.
As he was both, McCain went on to fly another navy plane into power lines, and to crash yet a second.
Then there was the Forrestal fire.
What happened there was closely investigated, and resulted in many changes - including the relearning of previously forgotten lessons.
In the end, the - I think valid conclusion - was that no one person was responsible - just the usual unusual chain of events in any major accident.
However, McCain's actions subsequent to the accident were, speaking as a former sailor, reprehensible and clearly demonstrated his unfitness for any command.
"Whatever the circumstances of the fires origins, McCain did not stay on deck to help fight the blaze as the men around him did. With the firefighting crew virtually wiped out, men untrained in fighting fires had to pick up the fire hoses, rescue the wounded or frantically throw bombs and even planes over the ships side to prevent further tragedy. McCain left them behind and went down to the hangar-bay level, where he briefly helped crew members heave some bombs overboard. After that, he went to the pilots ready room and watched the fire on a television monitor ...
New York Times reporter R.W. Apple, who helicoptered out to the ship the day after the tragedy and sought out McCain as the son and grandson of two noted admirals ...
When New York Times reporter Apple finished gathering his notes on the fire, McCain boarded a helicopter with him and flew to Saigon. Given that fires still burned on the ship and some of his fellow airmen were gravely wounded and dying, McCains assertion that he left the carrier for some welcome R&R in Saigon has a surreal air."
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20081007_investigating_john_mccains_tragedy_at_sea//
McCain deserted his shipmates to their fate, he deserted his post in time of war. If there is a God of War - perhaps that is why he got to spend some hellish time as a POW.
Indeed, had any other pilot simply decided, at that moment, to - in McCain's own words leave for "some welcome R&R in Saigon - it seems unlikely that they would not have been brought back under arrest.
Reportedly, the chain of command on Forrestal did not know McCain had left for some thirty hours - as only the most severely wounded were being evacuated.
Ask yourself, why would such a person not be court-martialled, much less be allowed to continue to fly combat?
Perhaps the answer lies in the fact that after his "welcome R&R" (taken while his shipmates still battled fires on the stricken Forrestal) McCain " ...went to London, where his father, Adm. John S. McCain Jr., was stationed as commander in chief of the United States Naval Forces in Europe ..."
Likely it did not hurt that "The investigation into the Forrestal fire was in the hands of Adm. Thomas Moorer, chief of naval operations and a close friend of McCains father. (Their friendship was why Moorer would personally convey the news to Adm. Jack McCain three months later that his son had been shot down in Vietnam.)
McCain is more of a disgrace to the honor of the military than Bush ever was.
11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)who presumes to be the most pure, righteous and dying to be outraged about something, lefty on the planet.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)The meter on mine gets pegged by that one.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Keep trying.
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)His family has people who have served, his grandfather and great uncle on his mothers side. Willard's family, on the other hand, not so much. How many average Americans can look at their family trees and not find ONE person who has ever served in the military, as the Romney's? It's odd, but nothing wrong with that in itself, unless you actively support the wars and sending others to fight in your place. In Willards case, he actually protested against the war protestors.
James48
(4,435 posts)in WW II. That's a fact.
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)"Biff, Barf, Tad, Turd, and Thurston the IV"
too funny
That is so funny I have to share it with some friends.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)I gotta remember that one. Hi-LAR-ious!
It is a travesty that none of them served. There are five of them. Obviously none of them follow Rmoney's ideals.
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)Oh man, I'm still laughing.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)maniacally at the roster of sons
bluedeminredstate
(3,322 posts)Your list of names sounds familiar...aren't those Sarah Palin's kids' names?
Doesn't she have five children too?
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)and gotta love the asshole smilingly protesting FOR the Vietnam War in his hipster slacks at Stanford when he got an exemption to serve a Mormon mission:
http://yathzee.tumblr.com/post/15301813303/mitt-romney-at-stanford-counter-protesting-vietnam
on the far right
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)He openly advocated for others to be drafted in the military (and get their forced hair cut) even as he declined to go as did everyone else in his family.
Weird parallels.
CanonRay
(14,101 posts)Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)Vattel
(9,289 posts)Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)Because the kid was "different" and Mitt was such a big manly man, you see.
cr8tvlde
(1,185 posts)spanone
(135,827 posts)liberalhistorian
(20,816 posts)but I think I like yours a lot better!
DinahMoeHum
(21,784 posts)pssss pssss pssss pssss pssss!
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)Great post.
DesertRat
(27,995 posts)And the Romney boys names...
FailureToCommunicate
(14,013 posts)HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)We were stationed at ASA's Radio Research Field Station # 1 a.k.a. "Vint Hill Farm just east of Warrenton VA. IIRC he was a Spec 4.
At the time I didn't think anything about it other than it was a curiosity be in a unit that included a governor's nephew.