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Mon Jun 1, 2015, 04:39 PM

A Vermont Socialist's opinion on Bernie S.



A good read that highlights my own disappointment in Bernie around the proposed F-35 basing in South Burlington, VT

http://socialistworker.org/2015/06/01/what-i-learned-about-bernie-sanders

123 replies, 6897 views

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Reply A Vermont Socialist's opinion on Bernie S. (Original post)
vt_native Jun 2015 OP
MohRokTah Jun 2015 #1
LordGlenconner Jun 2015 #2
cali Jun 2015 #10
LordGlenconner Jun 2015 #12
cali Jun 2015 #16
LordGlenconner Jun 2015 #71
H2O Man Jun 2015 #77
Paka Jun 2015 #26
liberal N proud Jun 2015 #101
merrily Jun 2015 #3
Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #4
cali Jun 2015 #8
Wilms Jun 2015 #23
Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #52
kenfrequed Jun 2015 #65
Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #75
kenfrequed Jun 2015 #76
Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #78
cali Jun 2015 #5
LordGlenconner Jun 2015 #11
cali Jun 2015 #21
joeybee12 Jun 2015 #82
Jim Lane Jun 2015 #36
swilton Jun 2015 #17
cloudythescribbler Jun 2015 #107
Koinos Jun 2015 #6
peecoolyour Jun 2015 #7
misterhighwasted Jun 2015 #9
merrily Jun 2015 #54
BeyondGeography Jun 2015 #13
1000words Jun 2015 #18
Jamaal510 Jun 2015 #62
whatchamacallit Jun 2015 #14
NuclearDem Jun 2015 #32
merrily Jun 2015 #56
Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #86
m-lekktor Jun 2015 #47
merrily Jun 2015 #55
Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #51
Raine1967 Jun 2015 #15
Number23 Jun 2015 #25
FSogol Jun 2015 #30
Number23 Jun 2015 #38
Raine1967 Jun 2015 #41
freshwest Jun 2015 #43
Number23 Jun 2015 #48
freshwest Jun 2015 #49
FSogol Jun 2015 #68
merrily Jun 2015 #57
handmade34 Jun 2015 #19
kenfrequed Jun 2015 #66
PowerToThePeople Jun 2015 #20
swilton Jun 2015 #22
Number23 Jun 2015 #24
Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #27
LondonReign2 Jun 2015 #31
Depaysement Jun 2015 #34
LondonReign2 Jun 2015 #80
Number23 Jun 2015 #84
Number23 Jun 2015 #37
freshwest Jun 2015 #50
LondonReign2 Jun 2015 #79
Number23 Jun 2015 #83
olddots Jun 2015 #28
olddots Jun 2015 #29
Depaysement Jun 2015 #33
stevenleser Jun 2015 #45
kentuck Jun 2015 #35
Cha Jun 2015 #39
Raine1967 Jun 2015 #42
merrily Jun 2015 #58
freshwest Jun 2015 #44
RobertEarl Jun 2015 #40
Starry Messenger Jun 2015 #46
Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #53
merrily Jun 2015 #59
Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #61
merrily Jun 2015 #64
BrotherIvan Jun 2015 #63
bettyellen Jun 2015 #94
BrotherIvan Jun 2015 #95
bettyellen Jun 2015 #96
BrotherIvan Jun 2015 #97
bettyellen Jun 2015 #99
BrotherIvan Jun 2015 #100
bettyellen Jun 2015 #102
BrotherIvan Jun 2015 #104
bettyellen Jun 2015 #105
BrotherIvan Jun 2015 #106
bettyellen Jun 2015 #109
BrotherIvan Jun 2015 #110
bettyellen Jun 2015 #111
BrotherIvan Jun 2015 #112
bettyellen Jun 2015 #113
BrotherIvan Jun 2015 #114
1StrongBlackMan Jun 2015 #115
BrotherIvan Jun 2015 #116
Number23 Jun 2015 #117
bettyellen Jun 2015 #123
bettyellen Jun 2015 #119
merrily Jun 2015 #118
BrotherIvan Jun 2015 #120
merrily Jun 2015 #121
BrotherIvan Jun 2015 #122
Kalidurga Jun 2015 #60
magical thyme Jun 2015 #67
Sancho Jun 2015 #69
LordGlenconner Jun 2015 #72
Sancho Jun 2015 #74
Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #85
Sancho Jun 2015 #87
Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #88
Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #89
Sancho Jun 2015 #90
Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #91
Sancho Jun 2015 #92
Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #93
ucrdem Jun 2015 #70
Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #103
jwirr Jun 2015 #73
joeybee12 Jun 2015 #81
F4lconF16 Jun 2015 #98
cloudythescribbler Jun 2015 #108

Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 04:41 PM

1. And some times an elected Senator has to bring home the bacon.

 

Or other forms of pork as the case may be.

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 04:42 PM

2. +1 for your courage to post that here on BU

 

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Response to LordGlenconner (Reply #2)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 05:01 PM

10. what courage? I'm a vermonter. I think he's

 

Wrong. Unlike Hillary supporter here who freak out and scream that any criticism of her is whaa unfair and right wing, most Bernie supporter candle'll with finding him flawed on some issues.

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Response to cali (Reply #10)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 05:02 PM

12. I'll wait for the the translation.

 

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Response to LordGlenconner (Reply #12)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 05:31 PM

16. one auto spell fuck up. it's still clear

 

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Response to cali (Reply #16)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:38 AM

71. It was more than one

 

And there was also at least one syntax error.

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Response to cali (Reply #16)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 12:30 PM

77. When one resorts

to focusing upon a spelling error, they are not worth responding to. They have already exposed themselves.

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Response to cali (Reply #10)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 07:03 PM

26. We know that no one is perfect!

If we like 99% we can live with the occasional flaw.

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Response to LordGlenconner (Reply #2)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 11:36 AM

101. BU - I love it

I dubbed it Berniemania early on but just like every other DU fad, this one will also burn its self out.


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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 04:45 PM

3. With so many Vermont socialists aiming at the Oval Office, I guess

it may make sense to start posting at DU again just to undermine Bernie.

I don't see why a socialist is going to be happier with any of the other candidates than they might be with a Democratic Socialist, like Bernie. Granted, Democratic Socialists are not socialists. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1280&pid=6844

So, hey, go for it. With any luck, we can ensure landing a dove like Hillary in the Oval Office.


Profile Information
Member since: Wed Sep 24, 2008, 09:34 PM

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 04:48 PM

4. Thou shalt not question St. Bernie of Burlington. Good luck to ya.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #4)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 04:57 PM

8. you're confused. it's Saint Hilly of the Shining sss

 

who must never be questioned. The first holy law of her acolytes is:

And lo I say unto thee, all word of doubt about our lady of wall street, is evil and cometh from the demons of the right.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #4)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 06:25 PM

23. Really?

 

I even recommended this thread.

Sanders' supporters, generally, have the luxury of not being thin skinned.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #4)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 01:35 AM

52. Bwahahahahahahaahahaha

I guess you missed this part of the article:

I can only speak to my own experience working in the office of Bernie Sanders, but after a few months, it became clear to me that electoral politics so closely tied to the Democratic Party could only be a dead end for those seeking revolutionary change. The experience was one of the key reasons I eventually joined the International Socialist Organization, which had a clear vision of working class self-emancipation.

My own experience is a miniscule example of the choices the left will face come next year, when Sanders throws his full support behind Hillary Clinton as the eventual Democratic presidential nominee, as he has every intention of doing. In the here and now, we must strategically decide the best way to spend our limited political capital. Principled activists who throw their political efforts into "Bernie for President" will find themselves orienting on the Democratic Party, rather than on the numbers of people who are beginning to come to radical conclusions.


This person isn't exactly on our team, pal.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #4)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 05:45 AM

65. Feh

I say to you 'Feh.'

Isn't it ironic that you seem to be cheering for an author that is guilty of the high sin of purism that most of you Hillary supporters would accuse those of us that support Sanders of? Perhaps a bit more attention to the entirety of the content of such articles might be good advice for you?

Personally, most of those of us that are supporting Sanders have had to be pragmatic over the years and can deal with a few small warts here and there. I don't think you are doing your candidate any favors on this one Tarheel.

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Response to kenfrequed (Reply #65)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 12:16 PM

75. Thanks for your "advice", but when I need it, I certainly won't turn to a Bernie supporter.

I find it highly amusing, and very thin skinned of BS supporters who dish it out on a fairly regular basis, but can't seem to take it. I hope you're equally outraged when the situation is reversed. Buckle up. You're in the big leagues now, and as both an Obama and Hillary supporter, I can tell you, it's gonna be a bumpy ride. People are gonna say things about BS that you won't like. Some may be true, and some may not. I'll admit that I don't give a shit about Bernie Sanders, whether the article is true or not. Not my problem.

My "advice" to you is take your own advice.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #75)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 12:25 PM

76. Right

I am sorry you can't see the irony.

I plan on voting for whatever Democratic candidate wins the nomination. Based on the tenor and tone of your response I am not entirely confident you will. In fact I am not completely convinced you are even a Hillary supporter. I don't think you are here to discuss issues reasonably or to try to convince anyone of anything. I think you are here just to wreck up the joint. I could be wrong but your tone is very antagonistic and feels like bait to me.

I am not biting.

I will vote for the Democratic candidate. Period.

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Response to kenfrequed (Reply #76)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 12:32 PM

78. Fortunately, I don't have to be held to account for what "you think", and it matters not what "you

think" of "my tone". As I'm fairly certain I know who the party's nominee will be, I will also be voting for the "Democratic" candidate, in both the primary and the general election.

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 04:50 PM

5. I don't like bernie's support for the F-35

 

I disagree with him on it, but what a little liar the author is, on one thing after another.

I so detest that rag. Always have always will. Liars suck shit and I don't care where there political loyalties lie.

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Response to cali (Reply #5)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 05:02 PM

11. So anything that doesn't align with your view of Bernie is a lie?

 

Got it.

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Response to LordGlenconner (Reply #11)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 06:10 PM

21. no, your lordship

 

I agree with her about the F-35. duh. I said that. There was other stuff in the article that was bullshit. And yeah, I detest The SW and Counterpunch and all yellow journalism. Maybe it's right up your gracious lordship's alley.

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Response to cali (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 05:03 PM

82. What specifically was bullshit...

 

Please enlighten those of us unfamiliar with this "rag"

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Response to LordGlenconner (Reply #11)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 09:01 PM

36. What an absurd distortion of another DUer's post

 

Obviously, cali's view of Bernie is that he's the best candidate. His support for the F-35 doesn't align with that view. So, in your warped reading, cali must be dismissing those allegations as lies, right?

Except that, if you trouble to read her actual post, you'd see that you were wrong. In fact, if reading a post before you attack is too much effort for you, you could in this instance get away with just reading the subject line: "I don't like bernie's support for the F-35".

As for the underlying piece from the ISO loyalist, I think I read pretty much the same thing in 1968. It was ink on paper rather than pixels on a screen but otherwise it was pretty much the same. This infatuation with third-party or nonparty politics was garbage then and it's garbage now.

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Response to cali (Reply #5)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 05:44 PM

17. For information on the F-35 basing in Burlington

 

I found this Truthout article which identifies what the concerns are, who supported the initiative, etc.,

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/29389-will-the-f-35a-fighter-bomber-be-based-in-burlington-vermont-in-2020

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Response to cali (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 03:40 PM

107. please detail what this author lies about "on one thing after another"

Incidentally, for the record, I also disagree with Bernie on the F-35 and his vote on the Israel war, but have still sent in an affordable nonspectacular donation. I am also not exactly a worshipper of the ISO and think you are right to be critical of the very unreliable Counterpunch, tho I think "detest" is more categorical than I am about them -- some of their stuff over the years has struck me as good.

But I didn't see anything in this column by a former Sanders intern that struck me as a "lie", though much that was (to my ears) the usual blather about how anything that has to do with the Democratic Party, from BCA in Berkeley CA to the Rainbow Coalition to Bernie Sanders is a waste of time. There's plenty of opportunity for action outside of the Democratic Party even for strong Bernie supporters, and even for the duration of his campaign. It is urgently important to me that he will get into the Democratic debates and raise issues to millions of mostly Democratic Party viewers that the mass base of the Democratic Party doesn't hear detailed or presented. I doubt for example that Jill Stein (who spokke at a panel I went to over the weekend at the Left Forum, along with Kshama Sawant, another politician I have contributed to, will lose much funding or activism due to Bernie, again even during his campaign. The notion that progressives somehow are drained by more progressive Democrats running is belied by the fact that there was NO upsurge, or even a noticeable 'bump' in progressive activism in years when no left candidate ran within the Democratic primaries, like 1996 or 2012. It is simply an illusion to think that there is any significant "distraction" from other work by the Jesse Jacksons, the Dennis Kucinich/Howard Dean (in 2004) candidates, or the Bernie Sanderses.

There is an argument for refraining from voting within the Democratic Party period, but I have yet to find the person, even those I highly respect, who condemns progressives for doing so in situations like this who doesn't strike me on this point of protesting overmuch -- and I don't mean street protesting and miilitancy, which I continue to support and to participate in to the extent I am able during all these supposedly horrible 'distractions'

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 04:52 PM

6. Interesting read...

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 04:54 PM

7. I'd vote to pay my constituents to put squares in round holes

 

if I were a Senator and had the opportunity.

It's not like a Universal Basic Income is coming up for a vote anytime soon.

Shit program, but good for Sanders refusing to put the people he represents out of work.

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 05:01 PM

9. Thanks for posting. Always good know the candidate's record.

All of it. And from someone from their own locale.

Politicians make deals on behalf of their State all the time.
F-35 is not a pretty subject, but no point in hiding this truth.
I'm sure he had his reasons for bringing the deal to Vt.

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Response to misterhighwasted (Reply #9)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 01:55 AM

54. See Reply 52

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 05:06 PM

13. That makes him a 3rd Way Socialist

This guy may be more electable than we think.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #13)


Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #13)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 03:00 AM

62. "3rd Way Socialist"

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 05:16 PM

14. What does it say that this is rec'd exclusively by HRC supporters?

Bernie's not socialist enough for them?

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #14)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 07:50 PM

32. Or it may have something to do with asking for some damned honesty once in a while.

 

MIC MIC MIC MIC MIC oh pay no attention to Warren looking out for Raytheon MIC MIC MIC MIC oh Sanders is just getting jobs for Vermont with the F-35 MIC MIC MIC MIC!!11!

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #32)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 01:58 AM

56. The author of the article was worried about Sanders' supporting Hillary.

That kind of honesty?

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #32)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 08:56 PM

86. I think that if people are mad at Bernie for supporting Israel, fine

I happen to disagree on that point.

But if they're doing so while boosting Hillary Clinton, they're being pretty fucking disingenuous.

The article came from someone who doesnt think the Democratic Party is worthy of support. The fact that Hillary Supporters are lining up behind it- without seeming actually read the thing, surprise surprise- only shows how desperate some people are for anything with which to go after a perceieved threat to her "inevitability".

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #14)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 12:33 AM

47. and it's an article from the International Socialist Organization

a group that is considered damn near a cult by other leftist activists!


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/International_Socialist_Organization


on edit: the socialist worker is their paper/site

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Response to m-lekktor (Reply #47)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 01:56 AM

55. Really?

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #14)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 01:33 AM

51. It's pretty fucking funny.

I'm pretty sure they didn't read the whole thing.

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 05:26 PM

15. I find this interesting. Especially this comment:

As both an activist and an intern, I was forced to choose whether to stand with the people of Vermont or with a politician who remained out of touch with grassroots activism.
I do not question this woman, as a matter of fact I believe she is speaking her truth.

Bernie is really amazing at getting grassroots going, but, I wonder what people are going to say when grassroots meets politics. This is a really good example. Bernie is not a socialist, this person's account proves it.


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Response to Raine1967 (Reply #15)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 06:51 PM

25. The whole thing is an interesting read. I had no idea that socialists had issues with Bernie

and particularly with his running for president as a Democrat. I'd say that his running as a Dem was the impetus for all of this but in another thread, MADem informed me that the socialists have been calling Bernie a war mongering corporatist (does that shit sound familiar, or WHAT??!) for at least a decade.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=14723

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Response to Number23 (Reply #25)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 07:37 PM

30. I'm guessing those socialists would have issues with everyone.

No one is pure enough.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #30)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 09:13 PM

38. Yep. The same thing many folks have been saying about alot of Obama's "left" detractors for a while

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Response to Number23 (Reply #25)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 09:40 PM

41. for some people, no one is pure enough, it seems.

and yes, 'that shit' does sound familiar!

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Response to Number23 (Reply #25)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 11:47 PM

43. That's why I call him a mainstream Democrat. Democratic Socialism is an established wing of the DNC.

It is represented by Democratic Congressmen and the sole Senator in it is Bernie. It's called the CPC - part of the Democratic Party. All of this can be found at Wikipedia and other sources.

So no, there will be no hot and cold running socialism coming out of the tap water faucet, there will be pragmatism and no Prince of Peace will be elected. What else is new, some people who are putting all this burden on Bernie, if he is elected, will turn on him as quickly as they did on Barack.

I respect Bernie's political leanings, he is what we call a New Deal Democrat who doesn't waste his term calling other Democrats dumb names to make himself seem special. I'll vote for him in the primary, but will vote for the Democrat in the general, no matter who it is as all of our candidates have strengths and weaknesses, the name calling seen online is just egotism. Because it divides, that is not about equality.

Obama knew and respects his position, as the leader of Americans no matter what their political leanings. This is also true with our good candidates. The GOP don't believe in that. I won't get all I want from the Democrat elected; I didn't get all I wanted from Obama, but then, and people keep denying this, Barack told us before, during and after both his victories, that the change was up to us. That it is about what we want.

Those who show up to vote get what they want, they rule us all. Those who divide and stay away or encourage others to leave the fray, get nothing.

That's how it works, and it is how it should work.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #43)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 12:33 AM

48. Awesome post, fw

So no, there will be no hot and cold running socialism coming out of the tap water faucet, there will be pragmatism and no Prince of Peace will be elected.

Those who show up to vote get what they want, they rule us all. Those who divide and stay away or encourage others to leave the fray, get nothing.


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Response to Number23 (Reply #48)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 12:49 AM

49. Thank you very much!



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Response to freshwest (Reply #43)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 05:59 AM

68. +1, Well said. n/t

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Response to Raine1967 (Reply #15)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 01:59 AM

57. You'd think a Socialist would know that a Democratic Socialist is not a socialist.

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 05:58 PM

19. ...

"Ultimately, neither Sanders nor any other politician can lead us to the alternate society we fight for. We must build it for ourselves..."

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Response to handmade34 (Reply #19)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 05:50 AM

66. Yup

That quote is enough to ignore that entire article as far as I'm concerned. Yes, I like anarcho-socialism but we are on a website about election politics, why the hell would I listen to someone that basically advocates sitting out of elections almost completely (as the author of this article does)?

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 06:00 PM

20. I do not agree with him on his gun control issues either.

 

Still he is miles ahead of anyone else on the playing field as an overall candidate imho.

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 06:14 PM

22. No one is perfect

 

If they were, they wouldn't be running for public office.

Franklin Roosevelt had a mistress - I'm sure Eugene Debs had flaws.

I think it is a healthy exercise to expose Sanders now. I don't like the stand on Israel apartheid and Palestine and I don't like the F-35. What I do like about Sanders is that he is much less hawkish than the other candidates and I believe his sincerity on income inequality and publicly funded education and health care.

To have those issues even presented in a campaign puts the left in a much better position than we were in four years ago. Sanders - in a departure from the meme of 'American exceptionalism' mentions making the US more like Northern Europe who are NATO members and participate in that institution to varying degrees. To Sanders' credit, he has a vision that is unlike the status quo.

There is an argument to be made that Sanders' candidacy as a Democrat prevents movement toward a pure social revolution - third party wise. That argument holds that the Sanders candidacy is being used as bait when Hillary will win all along...Momentum within the past week should be evidence that there is no need to buy that... If it happens that Hillary wins the primary, I for one don't intend to vote for her; others may, some will. If nothing else, Sanders participation is helping the left wing of the Democratic Party create a vision of who it is and where it wants to go.

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 06:42 PM

24. Errr... despite the bizarre and needlessly feverish defense from Bernie supporters

who think that shrilly screaming "I'm not Thin skinned!1one!" will prove how non-thin skinned they are ( ) that is very interesting article. Thanks for posting it.

I would have discovered Sanders' frankly hawkish positions on foreign policy. It only takes a brief search to uncover his ardent support for Israeli apartheid, his repeated authorizations of funding for the U.S. military budget, and even his initial vote for Bush's original Authorization for Use of Military Force resolution that began the war on Afghanistan. I would have even discovered pictures in the local newspaper of activists I knew being thrown out of Sanders' office for protesting his support of the U.S. bombing of Yugoslavia.


I have to admit that Sanders getting the "hawk" brand both intrigues and tickles me. In another thread, I saw where the socialists have come **thiiiiis close** to calling him a "corporatist". Can the "Thrid Way!!1 ThirD Way!1one1" stupidity be far behind?? Obama should pull Bernie aside and they could have a year's worth of chats about all of this. Probably a bunch of good laughs, too.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #24)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 07:05 PM

27. +1.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #24)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 07:43 PM

31. Umm, what?

"the bizarre and needlessly feverish defense from Bernie supporters"

Where exactly do you see anything fitting that description in this thread?

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #31)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 08:21 PM

34. Nowhere

He made it up.

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Response to Depaysement (Reply #34)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 05:00 PM

80. Yup, such pointless drivel wins an ignore

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #80)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 07:18 PM

84. You're right. You guys aren't thin skinned as all hell at all.

Running and putting people on ignore for even the most minuscule criticism of the wild-eyed behavior of Sanders supporters here and pretending you can't see any of that even when it's been pointed out to you is an excellent way to show how non-thin skinned you are.

Keep up the good fight, guys. You're an asset to your organization.

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #31)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 09:12 PM

37. Post 31 is a good example. And the other five or so posts in this thread, which you apparently are

unable to see, that are so busy checking the recs and "refuting" people's posts applauding the OPs courage in posting this on All Bernie, All the time Underground, instead of actually responding to the article.

Thanks for playing.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #37)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 01:07 AM

50. Once again, I thank Sir Skinner for granting us the Ignore feature. AKA, Obama's 'Bucket!' List!



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Response to Number23 (Reply #37)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 04:59 PM

79. LOL

Me asking for evidence of your claim is the evidence, eh?

You have nothing useful to add. You win an ignore.

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #79)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 07:17 PM

83. That works for me! Make it a double!

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 07:13 PM

28. I may be paranoid but the Socialist Worker paper

 

has allways looked like infiltration bullshit carried around by 30 year old professional students trying to hit on coeds .Thats my shitty opinion and don't take it personally especially if it rings true .

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 07:33 PM

29. did I kill another thread ?

 

maybe I'm good for something ......naw

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 08:18 PM

33. Another day on the left

Where no matter how far left you are on the spectrum, someone is always further to your left, claiming you're a sellout.

Someone should tell Kristen that Trotskyites thought Debs was a cartoonish capitalist stooge.

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Response to Depaysement (Reply #33)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 12:26 AM

45. Thread winner. Although some will refuse to see it. nt

 

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 08:46 PM

35. I wish we could appreciate the wisdom of our elderly.....

Moreso than discriminating because of age. Bernie is sharp and has the message for our times.

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 09:29 PM

39. Oh yeah.. Sanders is a real "hawk"! But, according to this person's opinion.. from your link,vt

"Had I done my research, I would have discovered Sanders' frankly hawkish positions on foreign policy. It only takes a brief search to uncover his ardent support for Israeli apartheid, his repeated authorizations of funding for the U.S. military budget, and even his initial vote for Bush's original Authorization for Use of Military Force resolution that began the war on Afghanistan. I would have even discovered pictures in the local newspaper of activists I knew being thrown out of Sanders' office for protesting his support of the U.S. bombing of Yugoslavia."

Sounds like Sen Sanders is a Democrat.

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Response to Cha (Reply #39)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 09:45 PM

42. I would like for him to officially say he is.

He sounds like a Dem, but he won't say he is. This is why I find this OP very interesting.

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Response to Raine1967 (Reply #42)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 02:02 AM

58. Please see Reply 52.

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Response to Cha (Reply #39)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 12:21 AM

44. Yes, and will be tossed under the bus very soon by some... n/t

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Mon Jun 1, 2015, 09:35 PM

40. Ya gotta love this

 

Just imagine in the debate with a republican chickenhawk, this issue is brought up by the chicken and he lays into Bernie for supporting the military.

It could happen.

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 12:33 AM

46. Poor DU

I'm not sure we're ready for the socialist tendency discussion. In a nutshell, just like there are left, center and right wings of the Dem/Rep parties, the same goes for socialism.

There are going to be critiques from the left of Bernie. I doubt they will burn up the airwaves, since the U.S. as a whole doesn't know what to do with this area. But if you've liked sites like Jacobin, SW or WsWs on FB, you'll get a taste.

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 01:36 AM

53. This author doesn't support the Democratic Party in general.

And in fact is actively arguing against supporting the Democratic Party.

So I'm not sure why Democratic Underground should take her seriously.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #53)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 02:05 AM

59. Not take the OP seriously? Hillary supporters have applauded him or her.

Since the OP disses both Bernie and Hillary, the circular firing squad has taken on a whole new meaning.

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Response to merrily (Reply #59)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 02:55 AM

61. Like I said upthread

I don't think they read the whole thing.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #61)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 05:33 AM

64. Sadly, they were just too upset that Bernie was not socialist enough to read it all.

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Response to merrily (Reply #59)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 04:03 AM

63. Well, they do think that something that's a gotcha for Sanders

is SOP for Clinton and that's A OK! So at least we know consistency is not very high on the priority list. But now, as always, they're are very, vewy concerned.

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Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #63)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:43 PM

94. Look who else is "very vewy concerned" .....

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #94)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 11:15 PM

95. A literal interpretation of writing is pretty much always the wrong one

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Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #95)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 11:49 PM

96. I'm sowwy! Was your OP about faux "concerns" deemed identic posts to be?

 

I see you!


LOL

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #96)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 12:41 AM

97. It was a way to have a genuine talk about real issues

Not faked concern with inflammatory pictures. Obvious the difference escapes you.

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Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #97)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 10:55 AM

99. Except you have this delusion that outside your group everyone is a troll- so it's okay to lie and

 

Say you're not concerned about the same fucking issue. So full of shit it's incredible, but I still give you points for trying. Amazing amount of paranoia in that thread, the conspiracy theories are just hilarious.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #99)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 11:30 AM

100. Why do you hate me bettyellen?

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Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #100)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 11:44 AM

102. I don't. But the bizarre accusations of many good long term DUers being operatives are ridiculous

 

More ridiculous than insulting, but still very insulting. And the two faced attitude- good luck talking about integrity now. That ship has sailed.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #102)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 11:51 AM

104. You mad bettyellen?

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Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #104)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 11:53 AM

105. You trolling us here in GD- where people actually share your concerns?

 

And feel more comfortable in the Bernie group, where people are saying things like "he marched on Selma, what else do they want"?

I'm can't say I'm impressed.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #105)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 11:54 AM

106. What's wrong bettyellen?

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Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #106)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 07:28 PM

109. "He marched on Selma, what else do they want!?"

 

What wrong is that no one noticed how very fucked up that statement is.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #109)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 07:50 PM

110. That's fucked up bettyellen?

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Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #110)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 08:07 PM

111. It is super fucked up, and sad to see at DU, "Brother Ivan"

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #111)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 09:05 PM

112. Are you sad bettyellen?

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Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #112)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 09:41 PM

113. Could you be more or a condescending jerk, Ivan?

 

I'm guessing it's possible, but obviously you'll keep trying. Going to alert now- is that your game?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #113)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 10:23 PM

114. Did you alert bettyellen?

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Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #114)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 10:49 PM

115. Well, someone did ...

 

and will be sitting in the corner for a bit.

On Wed Jun 3, 2015, 11:27 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
>
> Could you be more or a condescending jerk, Ivan?
> http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6776056
>
> REASON FOR ALERT
>
> This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
>
> ALERTER'S COMMENTS
>
> Bullying is not acceptable. Calling another poster a "condescending jerk" crosses the line, daring BrotherIvan to alert on their namecalling only makes it worse.
>
> You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Jun 3, 2015, 11:34 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.
>
> Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
> Explanation: I would hide both... But since I can't, i'll hide neither.
> Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
> Explanation: No explanation given
> Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
> Explanation: Baited ... Bit ... Alerted upon. Leave it.
> Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
> Explanation: No explanation given
> Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
> Explanation: Borderline. Bettyellen's got a way about her, but this would be time hide a subthread, if anything.
> Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
> Explanation: Take it outside! Both of YOU!!!!!
> Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
> Explanation: No explanation given
>
> Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #115)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 11:02 PM

116. It certainly wasn't me

But it is kind of funny.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #115)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 11:14 PM

117. That alert fail was the cherry on top of an absolutely AWESOME subthread sundae

That was the most enjoyable subthread I've read in a looooong time.

Even better than the diaper wetting upthread.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #117)

Thu Jun 4, 2015, 09:19 AM

123. Thank you! Haven't seen the "repeat with petulance" routine since I last babysat

 

At least online there's no spit up or literal poop to deal with, ha ha.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #115)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 11:40 PM

119. gosh did I ever see that coming, lol.

 

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Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #63)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 11:38 PM

118. Yes. Worried that Bernie is a Democratic Socialist and worried that he is not socialist enough.

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Response to merrily (Reply #118)

Thu Jun 4, 2015, 01:34 AM

120. The only one that works right now is "he's unelectable"

Totally dismissing that HRCs leads over Republicans has evaporated. Whistling past the graveyard and all that.

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Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #120)

Thu Jun 4, 2015, 01:46 AM

121. Whether it's Hillary or Sanders or Jeb or anyone else , it's too way early to take polls to heart.

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Response to merrily (Reply #121)

Thu Jun 4, 2015, 02:17 AM

122. Agreed

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 02:29 AM

60. Do we really want to get into who is more of a Hawk?

Really do you want to go there? Who is more of a Hawk, Hillary or Bernie? Just let me know when and if you want to go there.

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 05:53 AM

67. Find me a candidate that agrees with me 100% on my all of my issues

 

and I'll vote for that candidate.

So far, Bernie scores highest with me, in spite of the F-35 that is a total waste of taxpayer dollars and shouldn't be built at all.

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 06:18 AM

69. Bernie has his skeletons in the closet...this issue is just one...

he hasn't faced the national magnifying glass yet. The F35 issue, protecting gun manufacturers, a poorly considered Robin Hood tax, old "Shades of Grey" essays, a spouse who fights with liberal students/faculty...well, you get the idea. Drip, drip, drip.

Hillary has been attacked with every resource of the GOP thrown at her for decades. At this point, million dollar campaigns that invent imaginary criticisms attack Hillary regularly, and DUers who "love to hate Hillary" often fall for the bs and repeat it.

If Bernie were the nominee - he would face a billion dollar war chest with no limits. He would be completely overwhelmed with his very limited resources, nonexistent national organization, and minimal national experience. The GOP would love to face Bernie instead of Hillary.

I know that everyone imagines a great populist rising up to elect Bernie, but there is virtually no evidence that would happen. The Democratic voters have NOT come out for recent elections. The GOP has control of registration, elections supervisors, and voting processes in many states. When issues about Bernie are trumpeted over and over on TV, mail, internet, etc. - he simply won't have the money to fight back. That's how the GOP has won big elections, state elections, and local elections as a pattern over the last two decades, and we'll see it again.

Interesting post, because the author is exactly the person who has a concern over an issue that can be exploited by an attack ad campaign.



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Response to Sancho (Reply #69)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:42 AM

72. If he has skeletons they will come out

 

Believe that. Thing is, most of his supporters are of the "true believer" variety. To them, anything critical of "Bernie" is a lie or part of some kind of orchestrated smear campaign. We've seen as much in this thread. But most covet the struggle more than they care about winning elections so "Bernie" going down in a blaze of glory would be honorable and preferred.


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Response to LordGlenconner (Reply #72)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 11:20 AM

74. What's most frustrating is a failure to do what Bernie says to do....

discuss the issues. I've mentioned some key issues worthy of DU multiple times:

-A path to citizenship for millions of undocumented people living in the US
-Reasonable international relations - not just based on armies and oil, but experience
-Women's right that are still under fire decades after the attempted ERA
-Rights for children, including the right to education and health care

Usually, the threads devolve into bash-attacks on old RW memes.

What's interesting, is that you can take the "anti-status quo, blind desire for a natural politician"; and just substitute a Tea Party name. The Tea Party websites sound like some of our more excited Bernie believers. Not "socialists", but the same failure to look at objective evidence because of loyalty to a particular personality and opposed to everything else.

Anyone who's been around as long as Bernie has alliances and owes favors. He just happens to represent a small niche where he's safe. After the GOP operatives get going, any Democratic candidate will face an onslaught. Obama only survived because he was too new to have a solid record; and look at all the crap they made up about birth certificates, etc.

The Koch machine hasn't got Bernie in the cross-hairs yet.

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Response to Sancho (Reply #69)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 08:52 PM

85. You think attack ads are going to be run vs. Bernie for being insufficiently committed to Marxism?

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #85)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 09:15 PM

87. Attack ads against Bernie won't be necessary...

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Response to Sancho (Reply #87)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 09:26 PM

88. Ah, I see. So you didn't, actually, read the article despite claiming it illustrates his

"vulnerability".

If he's vulnerable then so was Bill Clinton for going after Sister Souljah. The person who wrote this article represents a far fringe, AND it's worth noting they are advocating not supporting the Democratic Party in general, in fact they specifically mention "Sanders's eventual endorsement of Hillary Clinton as Democratic Nominee" as a sticking point.

If Hillary's really so inevitable (again, just like last time!) then why do her supporters need to latch on to weak, amateurish pieces like this that they can't even be bothered to read?

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Response to Sancho (Reply #69)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 09:31 PM

89. "The Democratic voters have NOT come out for recent elections.".....You're in Florida, huh?

Maybe you can tell Debbie Wasserman Schultz the next time you see her; You know one state that Democratic voters DID come out in 2014?

Oregon.

Know what else Oregon has? A State Democratic Party apparatus that supports full marijuana legalization. A Jr. Senator who is the FIRST Senator in US history, to likewise, support marijuana legalization.

Yeah, pass that along to Debbie next time you chat.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #89)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 09:46 PM

90. I believe it was President Obama who pointed out the number of voters in the last election...

Sorry you missed it.

Has nothing to do with Debbie.

Meanwhile, I'm sure there is more marijuana in any one county of Florida than the entire state of Oregon.

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Response to Sancho (Reply #90)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 09:49 PM

91. And if there's a problem with turnout, wouldn't the smart analyst want to look to where turnout

WASNT a problem?

And yes, enthusiasm from party rank and file can be DIRECTLY related to the ability- or lack thereof- of party leaders to take necessary and brave stands.

I don't really care about how much pot Florida has, but if you're still putting sick people in jail for smoking it- and DWS is defending that position- it's a shame and an obscenity.

Meanwhile, Oregon has legalized for Recreational Use. Another area where our leaders and our voters are in sync and behaving rationally.

edited to add: I think you might be wrong about the "single county in Fla has more pot than all of Oregon", too. At least the prices don't seem to reflect that reality:

http://wweek.com/portland/article-18722-budget-bud.html

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #91)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 09:58 PM

92. Haha..pot has nothing to do with turnout here...

you do realize that between 25% and 30% of Florida were not born in the US? Hillary is correct to focus on a pathway to citizenship.

That's just one thing to think about.

Florida rarely puts people in jail for pot possession at this point. I work on a college campus and I'd say that recreational use does not seem to be an issue. It's been on the ballot to legalize, but didn't seem to GOTV.

Nobody cares or listens to DWS.



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Response to Sancho (Reply #92)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:11 PM

93. Well, we'll see.

(I'd also add that "almost no one actually goes to jail for pot smoking" isn't exactly a stellar rationale for keeping things the way they are. If the laws don't work or are only sporadically or arbitrarily enforced, isn't that another argument to ditch them for good?)

DWS has become increasingly marginalized, and running against MMJ didn't help her.

I do agree that immigration reform is an important issue with all sorts of Demographic implications in this election and beyond.

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 06:32 AM

70. The Bernie effect

I guess it lasts longer for some than others, depending on proximity, but in my case it wore off about twenty years ago. Some of this is new, most of it is familiar, none of it surprising. Bernie is a great self-promoter and if he were running for radio-host-in-chief he'd have my full support.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #70)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 11:50 AM

103. ^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:50 AM

73. Wasn't that debunked already?

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 05:02 PM

81. Hey, this doesn't say Bernie is a God!

 

I would have thunk someone would have alerted on that alone!

knr

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 02:01 AM

98. Heh.

Good luck. That and some of the other recent articles on SW are bound to set off DU's ire.



Thanks for posting it. I'd like to see more engagement with significantly leftwing politics here--they're more of a challenge for liberals to regute than facist politics. Makes for a lively discussion.

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Response to vt_native (Original post)

Wed Jun 3, 2015, 04:01 PM

108. kick

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