I'm so tired of seeing that Romney's behavior was acceptable back then.

[cali]

No it was not.

I've seen various permutations of that over and over again here at DU.

It's not true.

Yes, there was a different culture. but what Romney did wasn't acceptable back then. And it is germane to the campaign today.

It demonstrates a streak of cruelty and callousness toward others who are different from Romney. That is actually part of the narrative against him- that he can't empathize or understand people who don't live in his privileged gilt lined world. It's a prominent thread in the fabric of his life.

We shouldn't just dismiss it or say that it's no more relevant than Obama smoking pot when he was a kid or eating dog when he was 8 and lived abroad.

Mitt Romney was a thoughtless, cruel bully and he still is.

[NYC Liberal]

1. Yep. Most people didn't assault other kids when they were young

no matter when they grew up.

[liberalmike27]

37. Seems I Was Wrong

He didn't lose that empathy over time--he just never had it.

I always thought it was because he was rich, and just used to people sucking up to him, as to his lack of understanding about how his words are received. But apparently it was just genetic.

[bigtree]

2. not acceptable

but widely accepted and tolerated by many, many folks; among the youth and among those in authority. That may be the point folks are trying to make.

[cali]

3. it was NEVER widely accepted to pick on those less defenseless-

it was never widely accepted to physically assault others.

[bigtree]

8. you're making a point that most folks would agree with

I'm sure when people say this they're referring to, or recalling their particular circumstance. I can think of many instances in my past where slurs and bulling were not responded to in ways that we are working to institute in our schools and society today. I'll call you on it if you want to claim that attitudes weren't different in the past toward folks who were different. I lived in a mostly-white community which saw very little diversity in the time of my youth. Our very media and entertainment on television and in the movies often had representations of people treating folks with differences with derision and justifying often violent acts on those differences. That attitude was certainly reflected in our society as a whole; reflected in the attitudes of many of our adults toward the youth. We've gradually become, collectively, more aware and more responsive, but it's certain that many attitudes and actions have changed for the better. It's clear that there was a widespread problem in the nation with tolerating violence which needed to be addressed and changed; toward minorities; toward women; toward the mentally-impaired and the otherwise disabled; toward foreigners . . . Is this really disputed?

I do think Romney needs to own up to it and directly address the issue in a way which reflects the current efforts to combat the very type of bullying he engaged in. He can't, because he obviously feels that being gay or different is some kind of fault that he's not obligated to respect.

[Voice for Peace]

38. ++

[Javaman]

40. also, I think the way the republican party as painted themselves...

if mitten's was to admit guilt or any failings, the mouth breathing morons of the republican party would pile on him, well, like the bullies they are.

[Bolo Boffin]

4. I've been joking that it was acceptable only to set up

that holding down someone to cut off their hair is quite similar to his actions at Bain Capital, where he hunted for weak corporations, acquired them, and then sold off their assets. Both are predatory and cruel actions.

[A Simple Game]

27. I usually give a person the benefit of the doubt.

People can and often do change with maturity, but you make a very good point about Bain. Perhaps this is a person that didn't change or mature.

Why take a chance? It's not like he needs, or that we want him to have, the job.

on edit: just a little addition

[livetohike]

5. It was not acceptable in my suburban high school (1967-1970). In fact,

I never heard of anyone attempting anything so cruel. It's a physical assault. His character has never changed. He made his fortune out of being thoughtless and cruel.

[alcibiades_mystery]

6. If it was run-of-the-mill acceptable behavior

His five friends wouldn't have remembered it so vividly 50 years later. It was a haunting event for all of them.

One of his friends spotted Lauber (the victim) in O'Hare 30 years later and apologized to him.

Is was obviously a startling and intense event in all their lives.

[ibegurpard]

43. goddamm right!

[sandyshoes17]

7. Could you imagine

If your child came home from school with their hair chopped off. Even then.

[HereSince1628]

9. The only way I can explain it is that there is a lot of projecting going on.

And by that I mean that to preserve their faith in a personal goodness they didn't manifest, they blame society for their personal immaturity, impulsiveness and bullying of others.

[GoCubsGo]

10. I'm just as tired of the equivocations...

... of President Obama's experimentation with drugs at that age. Sorry, but he didn't hurt anyone, and he no longer engages in that behavior. That can't be said of Romney, IMHO.

[sufrommich]

11. Any other kid would have been expelled from school.

Even in 1965,unless you're the son of the governor. He's a privileged asshole who grew up thinking that rules are for the little people, plain and simple.

[bigtree]

13. I'm not so sure

we came to the point today where we needed to make great efforts to address an epidemic of bullying behaviors in schools. There's been a marked improvement over the years in such incidents as administrators and teachers are becoming more responsive. If you look at statistics, there is a large percentage of folks who say they were bullied in school. That fact, along with the visible improvement as we educate and demand that there's not toleration of bullying and violence, would seem to prove that there was widespread tolerance of such behavior in the past.

[sufrommich]

48. What Mitt did wasn't bullying alone,it

included an assault, a very visible assault. It may be hard for the adults at schools to "see" bullying,but it's hard to ignore the kid with the forced haircut.Romney got away with an assault,most kids back then would not have got away with that.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

12. It wasn't any more acceptable then than it is now.

He got away with it because his father was the Governor, and his hoity-toity private school wasn't about to discipline the Governor's kid. And it's possible that in those days the schools did have more of a boys-will-be-boys attitude toward bullying and hazing. But that doesn't mean it was an acceptable way to behave, then or now.

Kids can be really mean, and they (or at least some of them) will gang up on each other and behave like assholes unless somebody teaches them to be civilized. Evidently nobody bothered to teach Mittens that lesson. And some kids just grow out of it and learn "civilization" on their own. I thought it was interesting that the four or five others who participated in the incident now remember it clearly and feel sorry and ashamed. Mittens, not so much - he just chuckled and claimed not to remember it at all. And this response, in a way, is almost as bad as the original act. The other kids grew consciences - Mittens, it seems, did not.

[NNN0LHI]

14. I agree and have been surprised by some here who act as though it was acceptable back then

It was not acceptable behavior back then.

Don

[Spider Jerusalem]

15. I'm not sure "thoughtless, cruel bully" quite covers the depth and breadth of it, honestly

One has to question whether there isn't some deeper underlying mental issue. Some of the behaviour and the apparent lack of any feeling of guilt or remorse seem to indicate potential psychopathy (in the clinical sense).

[MH1]

16. His behavior NOW with regards to this incident is unacceptable.

Either he is telling the truth when he says he doesn't remember the incident, or he is lying. Let's examine this:

* He really doesn't remember it. REALLY? How f*cking callous can a person be, that they don't remember an incident where they assaulted another person? At no point in his young adult life (before it became a 40+ years old incident) did it occur to him that he really behaved as a shit, and felt bad about it? An incident like this was so insignificant to him that he just casually forgot all about it as he went on with his life?? (I actually think this is possible. And it blows my mind to think that people would still consider this man fit to be president.)

* He's lying when he says he remembers it. If so, that's just pathetic. How does the political calculation work that comes out with it being better to pretend he's just so callous that he doesn't even remember his own awful behavior?

In any case, he should either be outraged if it couldn't possibly be true ... but that doesn't seem likely, since there's 5 people independently recalling the incident, and he's accepting that it happened even if he doesn't recall the incident. So, he needs to make a heartfelt speech about bullying, how he did awful things when he was in high school, he deeply regrets his ignorance and attitudes of that time, which of course (so he'll say) have completely changed as he's grown and matured. He needs to address the scourge of bullying and the harm it does to the individuals concerned and our society at large. He needs to address this issue in a big way, and somehow figure out how to make it seem authentic (when authenticity is one of his weakest points). Anything less, says that he doesn't own up to his behavior, doesn't recognize the magnitude of harm, and/or still just doesn't give a shit. I'm willing to bet that all 3 are true regardless, but as a semi-competent politician he ought to at least try to fake it.

With all the understanding we now have as a society about the harms of bullying, for Romney to try to just dodge this and sweep it under the rug as "that was so long ago" shows a contemporary callousness to the people who are dealing with this issue today. And that's just unacceptable. And it's NOW, not 40 years ago.

[bigtree]

18. that's the heart of it I think

you nailed it, MH1

"he needs to make a heartfelt speech about bullying, how he did awful things when he was in high school, he deeply regrets his ignorance and attitudes of that time, which of course (so he'll say) have completely changed as he's grown and matured. He needs to address the scourge of bullying and the harm it does to the individuals concerned and our society at large."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002671726

[SemperEadem]

33. count on nitt to take a pass on that

even though he flip flops with the direction of the wind, don't count on him being so self-aware and empathetic that he would look into his own soul and see the drain that has emptied all honor and right-thinking from it.

he will double down in his "hey, sorry if you are offended by it" because he doesn't view gay men as being equal in humanity to him, even though he has none. He is throwing in with the mindset of those in this country who have no problem stripping rights away from citizens based on something that is none of their business in the first place.

[bigtree]

34. he'd have to respect the folks at the point of the bullying

. . . in order to get to any point about bullying in general. I agree, he can't get there from where he stands.

[MineralMan]

17. That behavior has never been acceptable.

Only bullies defend it.

[C_U_L8R]

19. He should have been kicked out of school

No matter what the year, Mitt engaged in horrible behavior
and if he wasn't a governor's son, he would have been kicked
out of Cranbrook without hesitation.

Has anyone grilled the school about this??

[MH1]

20. "Has anyone grilled the school about this??" - they should.

Cranbrook should be questioned as to what their policies were and are towards this kind of behavior, and how could someone have gotten by without even a reprimand, when apparently the incident was common knowledge.

Maybe Rachel or Chris Hayes or someone will follow this up.

[coalition_unwilling]

31. Buried deep in the original WP story were some chilling lines:

"Friedemann, guilt ridden, made a point of not talking about it with his friend and waited to see what form of discipline would befall Romney at the famously strict institution. Nothing happened."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/mitt-romneys-prep-school-classmates-recall-pranks-but-also-troubling-incidents/2012/05/10/gIQA3WOKFU_story.html?hpid=z2

****************************

Acc. to the WP, Friedemann was a 'student prefect.' Not sure what authority (if any) said title conveyed.

[obamanut2012]

21. My Dad is about Romney's age, and I asked him this very thing

He admits that he was homophobic then, but said he just left the "sissy" young men alone back then, although he didn't say anything to the bullies. He added that, although there was bullying of these young men, it was nothing like what Romney did, not even close, and that he knows he and others would have told someone like Romney to knock it off.

My father was a popular jock-type when he was that age, just to give a POV.

So, exactly, this wasn't "normal" bullying, even for then. This was extreme and sadist gay bashing.

[gratuitous]

22. "Acceptable" is probably not the right word

But it sure was common, and in 20 years or so of working on the front lines of homophobia (Oregon got in this game early), I've talked to dozens of gays and lesbians, and heard the stories of a hundred more who went through hell growing up in the 1960s and 1970s. They learned either through personal experience how to cover up their identity to avoid bullies, or they saw what got visited on others who stuck out for whatever reason.

Adolescence has long been a time fraught with danger for the "different," but for homosexuals doubly so. I got picked on at various times for being small, being smart, being the younger brother of someone the bully didn't like, or just on general principles. It was nothing like the stories I've heard from my gay friends, but when they talk about the feeling of hyper-alertness and being very watchful in certain situations (locker room) or around certain people (a mean streak bully), I know just what they're talking about.

There wasn't much of a solution. You could tell on the bully, but in my small town, that was a one way ticket to Fat Lip City or some even less desireable destination. Feeling isolated and alone was horrible, and rather than invite even greater wrath, a lot of the people I've talked with learned coping and defensive strategies to minimize the trouble. It might be geographical avoidance (complete with elaborate travel scenarios for between classes or after school) or assuming an ultra-butch don't-mess-with-me persona. But in a very short time, you realize you're talking with someone who in many ways is still coming to grips with their own version of post-traumatic stress disorder.

No, it's not to be lightly dismissed, but for the victims from 30, 40 and 50 years ago, it was a time when bullying wasn't such an issue, and the authorities weren't very tuned in to it absent exceptional circumstances.

[Life Long Dem]

23. School Bullying is Epidemic and Turning Deadly - ABC News

Just what we need when schools are having a hard time with bullying. A bully as a role model. Say goodbye to Romney.

Bullied to Death in America's Schools

[Chorophyll]

24. Thank you.

Bullying -- the powerful ganging up against the powerless -- has never been acceptable. Not in 1965, not in 1865, and not in 65 a.d. The thing we human beings call a "conscience" has been around for a very, very long time.

[slackmaster]

25. You are correct.

It was not acceptable.

[TrogL]

26. Even in my time (and I'm a geezer) this would not be tolerated

At minimum a suspension, possibly a chat with police.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

28. STILL IS THIS WAY IN CERTAIN AREAS

GUESS WHICH AREAS

[varelse]

29. Wow

I hadn't caught that people were doing that here on DU. It makes me kind of sad for us.

[Quantess]

30. are you aware that

your DU handle means "creature" in swedish?

[varelse]

41. Yes

I chose it after reading Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game series.

[Hissyspit]

42. Orson Scott Card, Idiot and Bigot:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/04/orson-scott-card-gay-marriage-amendment-one_n_1478936.html

Orson Scott Card Slams Gay Marriage, Supports North Carolina's Amendment One In Op-Ed

Posted: 05/04/2012 4:09 pm Updated: 05/04/2012 4:27 pm

Another high-profile voice has joined the chorus of those speaking out in favor of North Carolina's Amendment One.

Orson Scott Card, best-selling author of the award-winning novel "Ender's Game," spoke of his opposition to legalizing same-sex marriage in an seething Op-Ed for Greensboro's The Rhinoceros Times. Published May 3, Card's column -- titled "What Right Is Really At Stake?" -- suggests that same-sex marriage is actually about "giving the left the power to force anti-religious values on our children" rather than extending basic civil rights measures to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) couples.

Card writes:

There's no need to legalize gay marriage. I have plenty of gay friends who are committed couples; some of them call themselves married, some don't, but their friends treat them as married. Anybody who doesn't like it just doesn't hang out with them.
It's just like heterosexual couples who are living together without marriage. Their friends still treat them like married couples, inviting them places together; they're a social unit. Those who strongly disapprove leave them alone.

Card, who has spoken out against LGBT rights previously, continues with more questionable claims:

There are no laws left standing that discriminate against gay couples. They can visit each other in the hospital. They can benefit from each other's insurance.

MORE

[Kalidurga]

32. My small town was full of bullies...

yet, this would have not been acceptable there either.

[Javaman]

35. Remember, something being acceptable and no one doing anything about it...

are two different things.

"boys will be boys" was the throw away line from people who didn't give a shit and honestly believed that a little "lord of the flies" was a good thing for development.

I remember being constantly picked on and beat up. if the kid that beat me up was caught in the act, they were given detention. Which usually amounted to a few days in study hall. After which, they would either "learn their lesson" or if they were a sociopath, would come back with a vengeance. Those who "crossed the line" by beating someone so senseless, the would be kicked out of school. Which, sometimes was worse.

Back then, I recall two people in particular who were kicked out due to excessive violence. No charges, no juvie hall, nothing. Just kicked out.

Later in the year, one of these two guys, went after the guy he originally beat up as "revenge" for him getting kicked out of school.

the nutcase beat the crap out of the poor kid to the point were the kid was in the hospital for weeks. The nutcase? charged with assault but since he was a minor, did a short stint in juvie, only to be let out before the end of the year and allowed to "graduate" because he did his studies with a "tutor" aka a state mandated teacher who passed him on the most minimal of standards.

The beat up kid? He didn't graduate. He had to retake the classes he missed in summer school and repeat a quarter of his last year 12th grade to earn his diploma.

Of those two kids that got kicked out of school. One vanished off the face of the earth. More than likely dead. The other, last time I saw him was working at a car wash in my old neighborhood and looked about 20 years older than he was. He tried to strike up a conversation with me like I was his buddy. This guy tormented me, picked on me and when he felt like it, beat me up just for kicks back in school. I looked at him and just said, "really? you really think I'm going to talk to you after the way you used to treat me? Really?" I just walked away. I didn't feel satisfied. I just felt sad for him.

[SemperEadem]

36. yep... the apologists for this were working overtime

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=27429

trying to parse it to shreds by implying it was the haircut, not the victim's being gay, when neither are an excuse.

The fact of the matter was: nitt had no business putting his hands on this young man AT. ALL. FOR. ANY. REASON. PERIOD... whether his hair was dark brown and short or long and blonde--assault is assault.

That the school allowed this to go unpunished is really what needs to be under the microscope. As in "throughout the years of this school's existence, how many other gay students were subjected to this level of assault to which the school turned a blind eye?" What kind of atmosphere is this school encouraging where some students feel empowered to put their hands on another student in a like manner?

[colorado_ufo]

39. Romney is also hard-wired to believe

that what he believes is right and, therefore, everyone else needs to conform. No compromise. No empathy.

This guy, as I have said before, has all the characteristics of a severe case of Asperger's Syndrome (the syndrome does have varying degrees) and is incapable of true empathy. Many Aspie's can learn a degree of empathy, but anyone with Romney's amount of money and power - and support - has no motivation to do so. If he became president, he would "fix" the social net, all right: he would brush it away like a cobweb.

[eridani]

46. This business about Aspies lacking empathy is nonsense.

What Aspies have trouble with is reading social signals that indicate distress. Bullies (Bush, Rmoney) can read such signals perfectly well and they just don't give a shit. There are ways of teaching empathy from a rational and intellectual standpoint. As one mother of an Aspie put it "My son wouldn't hurt a fly--provided that he understands that the fly is being hurt."

[Incitatus]

44. I can't see anyone but a bully saying that kind of behavior was ever acceptable.

That is a totally asinine statement.

[bighughdiehl]

45. Not acceptable.....

I went to a yuppie high school that was seen as "oh. THOSE assholes." all around the rest of the metro area.
Yet I never witnessed anything like what Mitt did.

[cali]

49. I went to

Country Day School, public high school and prep school and it wasn't acceptable then or there.

[Bolo Boffin]

47. A tweet from CNN's own Erick Erickson:

Congratulations Mitt Romney. Unlike Barack Obama, people actually remember you from high school.

Now that is a glass of gotdamn lemonade if I ever saw one.