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Sun May 17, 2015, 08:52 PM

This I do know.

I will not sit down and I will not shut up.

I have nieces and nephews also four great niece and nephews. I will do anything to make this a better place for them. The two of them are incredibly strong, talented and beautiful women. I would die for them if need be. Actually, when the eldest was two, she fell to the concrete floor, following my sister up from the laundry room. She had her doll in her arms, her name was" super baby". When I saw her with her leg strapped to a board, intravenous lines attached, unresponsive and bruised, I prayed. Yes, it is not something I do anymore, yet that day I did. I was twenty six. I prayed I go in her place, she was only two and I had already had twenty six years. She survived.

There is so much talk here that we need to focus on economic justice and push social justice behind us for now. I have been told this! I say to hell with that 'cause one without the other is meaningless. This cannot be trickle down for for social justice. Trickle down has never worked. You know that! Stop pushing it.

I will vote in every damn election, for my candidate or not if they lose. I will always vote for the Democratic candidate. Always. Never a write in.

Some believe I am a stupid Bogger, the most loathed group at DU, that is okay. I know I am not. Hell yes, I am going to enjoy the time remaining. He and his family have brought dignity and grace to our White House.

There have been times in my life where I learned your life can change on a dime. So, you know, I cannot and will not live my short life on earth in misery and despair. I have known it, not going to dwell in a dark place.

Yes, silly me. I have hope.

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Arrow 147 replies Author Time Post
Reply This I do know. (Original post)
sheshe2 May 2015 OP
AuntPatsy May 2015 #1
sheshe2 May 2015 #7
Hoyt May 2015 #2
sheshe2 May 2015 #4
redstateblues May 2015 #28
sheshe2 May 2015 #45
fadedrose May 2015 #84
greatauntoftriplets May 2015 #3
sheshe2 May 2015 #5
greatauntoftriplets May 2015 #6
Bonobo May 2015 #8
sheshe2 May 2015 #10
freshwest May 2015 #23
sheshe2 May 2015 #125
99th_Monkey May 2015 #24
sheshe2 May 2015 #32
Bonobo May 2015 #34
seabeyond May 2015 #35
sheshe2 May 2015 #43
SMC22307 May 2015 #40
MannyGoldstein May 2015 #38
1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #67
MannyGoldstein May 2015 #68
1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #95
MannyGoldstein May 2015 #98
1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #101
seabeyond May 2015 #99
seabeyond May 2015 #71
MannyGoldstein May 2015 #72
seabeyond May 2015 #74
MannyGoldstein May 2015 #75
seabeyond May 2015 #76
MannyGoldstein May 2015 #77
seabeyond May 2015 #79
MannyGoldstein May 2015 #81
Marr May 2015 #85
seabeyond May 2015 #88
Marr May 2015 #94
seabeyond May 2015 #96
Marr May 2015 #104
seabeyond May 2015 #105
Marr May 2015 #107
NCTraveler May 2015 #90
seabeyond May 2015 #92
seabeyond May 2015 #93
sheshe2 May 2015 #119
SMC22307 May 2015 #11
seabeyond May 2015 #15
SMC22307 May 2015 #19
sheshe2 May 2015 #37
SMC22307 May 2015 #44
sheshe2 May 2015 #47
SMC22307 May 2015 #50
sheshe2 May 2015 #53
sheshe2 May 2015 #120
seabeyond May 2015 #83
LineLineLineLineLineLineReply .
Bobbie Jo May 2015 #89
seabeyond May 2015 #91
sheshe2 May 2015 #122
1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #20
sheshe2 May 2015 #25
SMC22307 May 2015 #26
seabeyond May 2015 #36
sheshe2 May 2015 #39
hfojvt May 2015 #48
Bonobo May 2015 #51
hfojvt May 2015 #60
Marr May 2015 #108
seabeyond May 2015 #110
Marr May 2015 #114
seabeyond May 2015 #117
1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #18
sheshe2 May 2015 #27
Maedhros May 2015 #31
Bonobo May 2015 #33
lumberjack_jeff May 2015 #127
joshcryer May 2015 #49
Bonobo May 2015 #52
joshcryer May 2015 #55
Bonobo May 2015 #56
joshcryer May 2015 #57
Bonobo May 2015 #59
joshcryer May 2015 #61
sheshe2 May 2015 #62
Bonobo May 2015 #63
PowerToThePeople May 2015 #103
treestar May 2015 #9
Thinkingabout May 2015 #12
FSogol May 2015 #13
seabeyond May 2015 #14
sheshe2 May 2015 #41
MisterP May 2015 #16
1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #21
1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #17
sheshe2 May 2015 #42
Hekate May 2015 #22
sheshe2 May 2015 #121
Raine1967 May 2015 #29
Number23 May 2015 #64
Gothmog May 2015 #30
DisgustipatedinCA May 2015 #46
sheshe2 May 2015 #54
SMC22307 May 2015 #58
Cha May 2015 #65
freshwest May 2015 #69
sheshe2 May 2015 #109
Cha May 2015 #123
sheshe2 May 2015 #126
Cha May 2015 #128
cali May 2015 #66
seabeyond May 2015 #73
TheKentuckian May 2015 #131
seabeyond May 2015 #132
TheKentuckian May 2015 #144
NaturalHigh May 2015 #135
seabeyond May 2015 #137
seabeyond May 2015 #138
MineralMan May 2015 #70
CanonRay May 2015 #78
mcar May 2015 #80
NaturalHigh May 2015 #82
seabeyond May 2015 #86
NaturalHigh May 2015 #113
Bobbie Jo May 2015 #116
NaturalHigh May 2015 #118
sheshe2 May 2015 #97
NaturalHigh May 2015 #115
TheKentuckian May 2015 #134
sheshe2 May 2015 #136
TheKentuckian May 2015 #142
GoneOffShore May 2015 #140
TheKentuckian May 2015 #143
NCTraveler May 2015 #87
madokie May 2015 #100
JustAnotherGen May 2015 #102
1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #106
sheshe2 May 2015 #124
Fumesucker May 2015 #129
GoneOffShore May 2015 #141
Blue_In_AK May 2015 #147
Scurrilous May 2015 #111
MaggieD May 2015 #112
TheKentuckian May 2015 #130
Liberal_in_LA May 2015 #133
NaturalHigh May 2015 #139
raouldukelives May 2015 #145
ucrdem May 2015 #146

Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sun May 17, 2015, 08:54 PM

1. Nice Op..

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Response to AuntPatsy (Reply #1)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:10 PM

7. Thank you AuntPatsy!

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sun May 17, 2015, 08:57 PM

2. + 10000000 from another member of the"most loathed group on DU."

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #2)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:01 PM

4. Told you the other day.

I am so loving you Hoyt!

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #2)

Sun May 17, 2015, 10:58 PM

28. What is the most loathed group on DU?

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Response to redstateblues (Reply #28)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:01 AM

45. Our sitting Democratic President.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #45)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:03 PM

84. I'm hung up on him too

I think maybe the only thing that would make him less attractive and intelligent in my eyes would be if he had an affair. That would sadden me. I'd be more disappointed than Michelle and his girls.

Other than that, I always have hope that when he's perceived to be wrong, the perceivers are wrong and he is right.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sun May 17, 2015, 08:58 PM

3. + 1 from another member of the group so many love to hate.

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Response to greatauntoftriplets (Reply #3)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:02 PM

5. GAOT~

Luv ya!

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #5)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:03 PM

6. Luv ya, too, sheshe.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:15 PM

8. There are about 3 or 4 people pushing this stupid and false narrative of "trickle down"

You are one of them, arguing against a massive and flimsy straw man.

You try to use the phrase "trickle down" to tie Bernie Sanders, the most Progressive (on Social AND Economic issues) that I have seen in recent years, to a Reaganesque economic policy.

I'm sorry, but it is insane and dishonest.

The false narrative that there is a rift between the advocacy for social issues and economic issues is becoming increasingly hallucinatory and feverish.

In reality, a true Progressive is one who fights for both equally and gains in one, without the other, are not what any Progressive would be satisfied with.

We have one declared candidate with a strong history of advocacy. Why anyone is trying to tie him to "trickle down" economics is nearly unfathomable. It is very disappointing and I hope that it is as transparently untrue to everyone as it is to me.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #8)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:25 PM

10. Take a breath.

There are about 3 or 4 people pushing this stupid and false narrative of "trickle down"
You are one of them, arguing against a massive and flimsy straw man.

You try to use the phrase "trickle down" to tie Bernie Sanders, the most Progressive (on Social AND Economic issues) that I have seen in recent years, to a Reaganesque economic policy.

I'm sorry, but it is insane and dishonest.

The false narrative that there is a rift between the


I am not trying to tie Bernie to anything. Wake up. There are people on this board that are saying finacial justice comes first. Do not twist my words.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #10)

Sun May 17, 2015, 10:26 PM

23. Don't bother with this! n/t

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Response to freshwest (Reply #23)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:11 PM

125. Sigh~

I know freshwest.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #10)

Sun May 17, 2015, 10:29 PM

24. Can you link such a DU post? Who on DU is saying this

 

that financial justice comes first, at expense of social justice?

Do you have at least one example of this?

You could be right, but I just haven't seen it, not like you're
characterizing it.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #24)

Sun May 17, 2015, 11:12 PM

32. DO NOT PLAY GAMES WITH ME.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #32)

Sun May 17, 2015, 11:18 PM

34. Your own advice: "Take a breath." nt

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #32)

Sun May 17, 2015, 11:25 PM

35. yup. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #35)

Sun May 17, 2015, 11:50 PM

43. you~

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #32)

Sun May 17, 2015, 11:46 PM

40. LOL!

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #24)

Sun May 17, 2015, 11:32 PM

38. Nobody, that I've seen, is saying this

 

As far as I can tell, it's a claim made in attempt to freeze people who are critical of Third Way economic policies; because the Third Way is mainstream on social issues, somehow that excuses their being fringe-right wackos on economic issues.

And Goddess forbid that anyone request an example, the response is just huffing outrage - never a relevant link.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #38)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:22 AM

67. Well ... YOU once posted the following line (before seld deleting it) ...

 

"If your don't understand that income inequality is THE problem; then YOU are the problem."

Did you not?

(Now ... since I know you to deny what still remains; I can't imagine you admitting to what you deleted)

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #67)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:43 AM

68. Unlikely

 

along the lines of something I would post as sarcasm, but the subject of the sarcasm would have been different. As to the other thing... are you referring to my famous chicken and watermelon joke post that you are never able to produce?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #68)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:43 PM

95. Oh boy! ...

 

Unlikely that you posted it? ... Unlikely that you self-deleted it? ... Unlikely that you posted it but did mean it to be taken seriously? ... Unlikely that you would deny having posted it? ...

What?

As to the other thing... are you referring to my famous chicken and watermelon joke post that you are never able to produce?


Just stop.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #95)

Mon May 18, 2015, 01:02 PM

98. *You* make BS accusations and *I* should just stop

 

Yow.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #98)

Mon May 18, 2015, 01:06 PM

101. Okay. n/t

 

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #95)

Mon May 18, 2015, 01:04 PM

99. +1. and since i do not see lesson learned, i will simply remember to hit bookmark, hence forth.

 

i am that confident, lol. even in third way voice.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #67)

Mon May 18, 2015, 09:58 AM

71. he also used the word minor. that social is a minor issue. but, he wont own that either.

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #71)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:08 AM

72. Link or slink.

 

Thanks.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #72)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:10 AM

74. i have the conviction, i can own what i put on du.... ;) .

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #74)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:11 AM

75. So you have nothing.

 

Fabulous.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #75)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:12 AM

76. i do have my integrity.

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #76)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:13 AM

77. Making nasty accusations without proof

 

is the opposite of integrity.

It is the mark of a low person.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #77)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:17 AM

79. you have a star. put your name, 'minor issue' key word in message text, GD, a month ago. the post

 

was the top of a big thread have this very conversation. a little after clinton declared

bring it to me, manny... would take you seconds

your post was one of the first in that thread

show us you can stand with what you post

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #79)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:26 AM

81. I even checked back to March 1st

 

Nothing.

I await your apology.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #10)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:09 PM

85. Lie.

 

There's only one part of the Democratic coalition that argues for sacrificing other parts-- and it's the centrists you adore. They adopt liberal positions on social issues while sticking it to labor, and you cheer for it. Then you've got the gall to say it's liberals who are divisive.

It's gross.

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Response to Marr (Reply #85)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:15 PM

88. this is not a conversation. only a post of insults. really, .... the same names. repeatedly.

 

how productive is this?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #88)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:42 PM

94. That's an odd comment for you to make, considering just one post above mine you're making

 

insulting accusations that you can't back up with a simple link to the comment you claim another poster made.

How respectable is that?

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Response to Marr (Reply #94)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:47 PM

96. owning ones words is not an insult. i stand by what i say. i do not have a probably owning

 

what i believe.

and yet... i see you did not own yours... a post of insults that adds nothing to this conversation.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #96)

Mon May 18, 2015, 01:25 PM

104. You aren't 'owning your words', you just made an accusation you can't back up...

 

...and don't have the decency to withdraw it. That's not 'integrity', it's a willingness to lie and insult.

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Response to Marr (Reply #104)

Mon May 18, 2015, 01:27 PM

105. because i cannot search and find does not mean it was not said. hence, depending on

 

integrity.

and ya. i can stand by my words i post. bring me something i said or believe, and i will own them

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #105)

Mon May 18, 2015, 01:31 PM

107. Then use google.

 

Go to google.com and type:

site:democraticunderground.com , followed by the search terms as you would use them on this site. That will search DU for the comment you insist the other poster made.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #10)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:16 PM

90. That poster is not here for honest reasons and it is very well known. Just leave their comments.

 

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #90)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:20 PM

92. ya. i do not even play in his threads anymore. i have read him on DI. i mean. he tells us

 

what he thinks about us.

not a tough one.

sometimes, we just gotta laugh at those that demand we take them seriously.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #90)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:21 PM

93. sheeeit, he tells us what he thinks about us in the mens room. nt

 

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #90)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:18 PM

119. Thanks~

Actually, he may be #2 on my ignore list.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #8)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:26 PM

11. This...

The false narrative that there is a rift between the advocacy for social issues and economic issues is becoming increasingly hallucinatory and feverish.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #11)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:34 PM

15. issues is becoming increasingly hallucinatory and feverish.

 

or... you just prove the point of the OP with this comment

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #15)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:45 PM

19. Only in seabeyond's world would you think point proven.

The issues are not mutually exclusive and while I don't spend 24/7 on DU, I'm not seeing anyone pushing that they are.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #19)

Sun May 17, 2015, 11:31 PM

37. You may not be here 24/7 yet it is here 24/7.

No, it is not in seabeyonds world, it is a fucking fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You keep attacking sea, why is that? You did it in my other post. Why?

This the net, so who knows. You say you are a woman. Yet you attack them. You criticized her for not using caps! Are you fucking kidding me? Dear goddess, that is all you have?

Wait what, you take offense being called a woman. Yikes.

Ya really have to read the whole subthread people....Lol~

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026639070#post84

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #37)

Sun May 17, 2015, 11:55 PM

44. Cough up the proof requested in #24.

Otherwise "it is a fucking fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" in your own mind. Sea's World. "whatever, woman."

Tomorrow's a work day and I'm not going to be able to stay up much later enjoying the tag-teaming She/Sea Show. Alas.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #44)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:03 AM

47. Do your own search. I work too. nt

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #47)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:08 AM

50. Translated: You got nothing.

As we all knew. Well, all but for your fan club.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #50)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:17 AM

53. Trust me....

l have plenty. Actually go ask your buddies. You are You are in a fog....!~

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #44)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:22 PM

120. Funny you should mention tag teams, very funny. nt

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #19)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:57 AM

83. i dont know who you are. i have never read or paid attention to you until late saturday night when

 

i was told, out of blue, you just like..... called me out and called me names.

now you are all over the place, in my face, like we are best buds....

wtf

you are starting to sound familiar. over the decade... the people that come and go, and, come back again.

i know regardless of what this is about, you are not much of a challenge, though. so, two days in. meh. your name will just be another i am aware, it is nothing but a fuckin' game.

there are a lot of people on du to have actual, interesting, stimulating and informative conversations with.

that takes a lot of my time.

i am not messin' with the drama. so.... spread my name across du in ridicule, scorn and mockery...

how seriously am i gonna take you?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #83)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:15 PM

89. .

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #89)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:18 PM

91. omg, i know. i am laughing out loud. ya. meh.... lol. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #83)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:00 PM

122. They sure are focused on you, and not in a good way, sea.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #15)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:46 PM

20. LOL. +1 n/t

 

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #11)

Sun May 17, 2015, 10:51 PM

25. omg~

economic issues is becoming increasingly hallucinatory and feverish.
Response to: SMC22307 (Reply #11)


lol~ i am not using caps , 'cause i don't feel like it.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #25)

Sun May 17, 2015, 10:53 PM

26. I thought it was your arthritis acting up?

Pick a story and stick to it.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #25)

Sun May 17, 2015, 11:26 PM

36. ha ha, woman

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #36)

Sun May 17, 2015, 11:33 PM

39. sea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #11)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:05 AM

48. no there is a rift

there has been since at least Bill Clinton, when the DLC consciously threw economic issues under the bus.

Some people just want to keep it that way. Their message seems to be "hurrah for social issues, and fuck economic issues".

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #48)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:08 AM

51. Once you open the door to wealth, there IS a tendency to want to close it. True.

Rich white people of both genders may find it expedient to maintain there self-identity as liberals by talking about social issues while wanting the economic status quo to stay right where it is.

But I don't see how anyone can deny the link between social and economic issues.

Look at abortion for example.

Rich women have always and will always be able to get aboortions. #economicjusticeissocialjustice

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #51)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:36 AM

60. it isn't just rich people though

the biggest group is probably the 80-98th percentile.

In fact, with occupy, they have pretty much even co-opted economic issues. Because for every dollar that goes to "the 99%" it seems like 50 cents goes to the 80-98th percentile, 30 cents goes to the next 20%, leaving only 20 cents for the bottom 60%.

My own name for that is "trickle down lite".

And I would look at abortion. Does keeping abortion legal do anything to reduce income inequality? And the same politicians who declare themselves to be "progressives" or "liberals" because of their stance on abortion, are the same ones who engage in the trickle down lite economic policy.

Take Andrew Cuomo (please). Here he is touting abortion in his state of the state http://www.ontheissues.org/Governor/Andrew_Cuomo_Abortion.htm

(Okay, on closer reading that link seems to be for an anti-choice group, but it was about the only thing google gave me for Andrew Cuomo on abortion (it gave me a bunch of links for his dad))

and here's Cuomo making sure rich people get a tax break http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/154

Seems to me that he uses abortion the same way Republican politicians do - to mollify and distract his base, while taking care of the donor class.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #48)

Mon May 18, 2015, 01:36 PM

108. Weirdly, they've now segued into 'if you care about economic issues...

 

...you hate gays, women, and minorities'.

The pretzel logic has become 4-dimensional pretzel logic.

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Response to Marr (Reply #108)

Mon May 18, 2015, 03:27 PM

110. no one. has EVER said that. fuck....

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #110)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:32 PM

114. Oh, some of have most certainly implied it.

 

Like this person-- maybe you're familiar with them:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6603263

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Response to Marr (Reply #114)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:44 PM

117. implied.... lol... lmfao. ya. uh hu

 

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #8)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:44 PM

18. What is insanely and dishonest is ...

 

every line of your post.

SheShe has not said one negative thing about Bernie (that I have seen) ... nor has she tied the trickle down social rights to Bernie. She has, however, tied trickle down social justice to du "progressives" ... and rightfully so

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #18)

Sun May 17, 2015, 10:57 PM

27. Lol~ Boom!

Thank you 1StrongBlack Man!

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #8)

Sun May 17, 2015, 11:10 PM

31. It's an attempt to paint Hillary as the more socially progressive of the two candidates.

 

It is necessary to claim that high ground, because on economic issues Bernie wins going away.

What's silly is the implication that Bernie somehow lags behind Hillary on social issues. He's just as rock solid, or more so.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #31)

Sun May 17, 2015, 11:13 PM

33. Beneath the surface is an implicit claim that he is just another "white male".

Forgetting about the fact that he is not even a millionaire and that Hillary Clinton is probably worth 100 times more than he is (conservative estimate).

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #33)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:19 PM

127. It's not that far beneath the surface. n/t

 

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #8)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:07 AM

49. Economic populists can (and have) shoved social issues under the bus.

Almost everyone in Russia owns their own home and people get retirement at 50 something. Great stuff, right?

For me social issues are more important than economic issues, because social issues, at their very heart, are economic issues. But then we'd just get into a debate about which is which. Is Hobby Lobby ruling a social issue or economic issue? I think it's social but has economic consequences. Is Citizens United social or economic? I'd say social since it challenges the political fabric and it has wide ranging economic influences because it reenforces the status quo.

I'd rather have, as Sanders envisions, social democracy, where, yes, there is high tax and all that, most of the governmental emphasis is on social safety nets. The number of people needed to tax the rich by the government is trivial compared to the number of government workers needed to redistribute wealth to the people and provide safety nets. Absolutely trivial.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #49)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:09 AM

52. Is access to abortion social or economic?

Think well on that, Josh.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #52)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:23 AM

55. This is where we get into the "which is which" debate.

I say it is completely and utterly social, because at its heart, in Roe v. Wade, non-access challenges the right to privacy, which is a constitutional right (14th Amendment).

We can play the game all we want, but I'd argue that if you approach it from the other direction, it's easily shown that even economically populist states have highly regressive social policy. The case exists here for abortion in Latin American states which are populist, which is highly illegal.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #55)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:24 AM

56. I disagree.

Even in states with regressive social policies, the rich have access to abortions and it is not I who started the game nor do I think the two CAN be delinked.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #56)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:30 AM

57. The rich don't play by the rules.

Which is why we need the social rules to be in place to protect the non-rich. If the Koch's had a 50% tax rate they'd still be lobbying against choice and LGBT rights (there was a thing where the Koch's tried to rebrand themselves as socially liberal but that is false on its face). There would still be campaigns and politicians fighting against it.

You're not going to tax the right wing and suddenly be bequeathed social rights.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #57)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:34 AM

59. It is a false dichotomy.

Particularly when this claim of two separate goals is used to attack Senator Sanders.

I really don't have anything to add to that.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #59)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:43 AM

61. I consider it a failed attack.

Since Sanders does not believe in "trickle down for social justice."

I think it was designed to trigger people who believe some variant of that as a potentiality. As is so often the case with OPs.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #52)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:43 AM

62. It is not just about abortion.

It is about our right as women to own our bodies. We have the right to decide. No man belongs in our doctors office. Only a husband or father of the child belong there. Not the fucking GOP!

We have rights, they do not. That is social rights!

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #62)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:49 AM

63. I'm sure Bernie and all of DU agrees with that. nt

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #8)

Mon May 18, 2015, 01:09 PM

103. DUrec.

 

Third way is Republican.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:21 PM

9. Another BOGGER rec

I don't get why people are making an argument about this. We are all for both.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:29 PM

12. Don't ever give up. We need you, lots of nasties here sometimes but I consider the source.

Put the nasties on ignore and hang with us.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:30 PM

13. K & R. n/t

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:33 PM

14. I will not sit down and I will not shut up. and you need us, more than we need you.... cause when

 

we stand together, we stand strong and we prove it out.

i will not go to the back of the bus. for nobody. no how.

and damn straight it is for my kids. i said this to my husband a decade and half ago, why i speak out. and i say it now. nothing about that has changed

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #14)

Sun May 17, 2015, 11:47 PM

41. sea.

no, never sit down and as sure hell never shut up. no back of the bus for us women.

never. the children are our future and they will lead the way. you, from what you have said have raised beautiful enlightened caring sons. yes they are our future.

yes, yes, yes. we all stand together, or we don't stand at all.

i love you woman.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:35 PM

16. the TPP is the *essence* of sitting down and shutting up

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Response to MisterP (Reply #16)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:50 PM

21. Apple Sauce! ...

 

Oh? We weren't playing DU Tourettes?

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:37 PM

17. I see you. n/t

 

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #17)

Sun May 17, 2015, 11:48 PM

42. ...

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sun May 17, 2015, 09:53 PM

22. You're one of the best. BOGger rec.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #22)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:57 PM

121. HeKate~ I

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sun May 17, 2015, 11:04 PM

29. BOG'r Rec.

Sometimes I think it is easier for people to to discuss economic Justice without the understanding that these things go hand in hand. I see it all over the vast internet.

You can't have one without the other. and you certainly cannot have economic justice hoping that it will trickle down and create social justice. If that were the case, Lilly Ledbetter would never had needed a law named after her. We wouldn't have needed social security or medicaid… That took legislation to push things forward. and we have a long long way to go.

Excellent post. I really liked how you brought the dreaded trickle down into the equation. I had never looked at/thought about it like that.

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Response to Raine1967 (Reply #29)

Mon May 18, 2015, 01:59 AM

64. Freshwest (another BOGger, oh noeeeeess!!1) is the one that I first saw use the phrase "trickle

down justice" and it is perfect to describe these people who post OP after OP and thread after thread about how economic justice is more important than social justice which the people who always support this really ignorant line of thinking never, ever, EVER seem to be able to find and must promptly demand links to at every given opportunity.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sun May 17, 2015, 11:04 PM

30. Good OP

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:01 AM

46. Nice cross you nailed yourself to.

 

You seem to have 3 different complaints in your OP. But where are the perpetrators of the deeds that caused you to make your impassioned post?

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #46)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:21 AM

54. I do believe you should read DU.

Get back to me when you are done.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #46)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:33 AM

58. Dayum.

She works. Do your own research.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 05:11 AM

65. Good for you, she.. there's so much Light to be basking in!

You know I always say.. Consider the source of those who have whined about the Barack Obama Group for however long it's been in existence. Now some of them are in the Bernie group blocking posters. See how that works. Who cares what hypocrites have to say about Anything?

Two years ago on this date~


On This Day: President Obama visits with pre-kindergarden students at Moravia Park Elementary School, May 17, 2013

http://theobamadiary.com/2015/05/17/the-week-ahead-27/

So much "grace and dignity"..

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Response to Cha (Reply #65)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:48 AM

69. Love this pic! See the love there! n/t

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Response to Cha (Reply #65)

Mon May 18, 2015, 03:15 PM

109. Thanks for that wonderful picture, Cha!

You can see the joy.

~TOD has the best collection!

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #109)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:08 PM

123. And, now the President is on Twitter.. "Dad, husband, and the 44th President of the United States"..

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Response to Cha (Reply #123)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:14 PM

126. Gotta love him!

BTW, thanks for the wake up link, Lol~

I hadn't even had my first cup of coffee!

Love ya Cha!

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #126)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:24 PM

128. Gotta love him, indeed!

You're welcome.. when I sent it I had just written my post.. had no idea what would ensue.

getting back to it now..

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 05:18 AM

66. I don't understand how it's so difficult to grasp that social justice and economic

 

justice are two sides of the very same coin. They are inextricably bound. To ignore one is to ignore both.

And on one thing we agree: President Obama and Michelle and the girls have been wonderful to have in the White House. They've set a fantastic example as a family.

I don't think anyone has suggested you shut up. I don't really get the persecution thing. I get excoriated here all the time. That's fine. I don't feel persecuted. Expressing one's opinion doesn't automatically come with nothing but praise.

So yeah, fight for what you believe.

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Response to cali (Reply #66)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:09 AM

73. you can have economic without social. you have been given absolute easy to understand examples. why

 

do you have such a hard time with something so simple

strong black mans daughter lives in upscale neighborhood, father makes more than enough, can look out the window at the country club.

his daughter cannot go to a bday party at the country club with her classroom peers.

why?

they poor white kids can go. but the uppermiddle income black girl is EXCLUDED from a bday party that all her classmate peers can attend.

has economic. social left her DOWN.....

see. simple.

why cant you understand?

chris rock. economic security. pulled over a zillion times, escalating his chance of being shot dead for being black.

see? economic, no social

get it yet?

so simple

yet, if one chooses not to see, regardless of the simplicity, they will not

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #73)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:28 PM

131. Is that poor baby being screwed out of the full benefit of her class privilege because some of

the economic feudalist are also racist?

If that is as tough as it get then she will be more than fine but no matter what she will have a safe home, access to activities and experiences, no worries about hearing "I'd love to see you do but there is no way we can afford that", she will not be hungry, she won't face daily ridicule about her shoes and clothes, she will never know the embarrassment of being sent to the store with food stamps with a class mate behind her in line, her after school and summer job money won't go to make bills, she will feel no pressure to fly the coop so there is on less mouth to feed, she won't start college without books praying everyday that the financial aid disperment will come before she gets too far behind, she won't have to go without food, and I doubt that she will ever be homeless and she will be set up to succeed.

Plus, that isn't relieved by social justice achievable through the political process but rather a hearts and mind issue. What are you going to do, set up a birthday party quota system?

Maybe the little girl just doesn't like her because she doesn't like her and that is why she wasn't invited and even if they are the bigot family there will be more evolved rich girl parties to attend.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #131)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:43 PM

132. pretty damn nasty. be proud

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #132)

Wed May 20, 2015, 06:36 AM

144. What was nasty? Maybe the headline seems harsh but in context that is what is real.

Some complaints seem mostly an issue of failure to get the full benefit of class privilege, I'd love for such a thing to be my daughter's biggest cross to bear because she will have to deal with the same shit plausibly with an added side of shit from a few black folks too without the benefits that come from overlooking the golf course in a posh upscale neighborhood.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #73)

Tue May 19, 2015, 12:24 AM

135. Birthday parties? Seriously? Now we're supposed to stress about birthday parties?

We didn't put out open invitations to our kids' birthday parties, and I don't know of anyone who ever suffered for such. I would personally prefer that my kids have food, clothes, and housing security a lot more than invitations to birthday parties.

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #135)

Tue May 19, 2015, 12:36 AM

137. you people are unbelievable. this is like so fuckin' offensive on a fuckin progressive board.

 

this is about discrimination, but make it petty. there are some that does petty really well.

what is it? are you pissed that a black is ONLY discriminated against, and not poor, also?

i am not surprised.

i am not even a little surprised.

and this says it all, and who it is that sides with economics justice and exactly how there is that lack of concern or need for social justice among your group. just says everything about you.

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Response to cali (Reply #66)

Tue May 19, 2015, 12:42 AM

138. check out the subthread. how dare a black man do well financially, and still have the audacity

 

Last edited Tue May 19, 2015, 01:14 AM - Edit history (1)

to recognize the discrimination toward him and his daughter.

two cheerleaders for economics.

how dare a black family complain that their daughter excluded and discriminated against.

the audacity of the family.

tell me, how the populist group "welcomes" social justice. my fuckin' ass

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 09:50 AM

70. K&R

Thanks for your post.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:16 AM

78. Good on you sheshe



I have a very cynical nature and am prone to be negative, and I am constantly trying to overcome that. You have done so.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:20 AM

80. Beautiful she!

Keep up the fight

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:35 AM

82. "You know that! Stop pushing it."

Ironic that your opening line was "I will not sit down and I will not shut up." Apparently you think that anyone who sees things differently than you should.

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #82)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:12 PM

86. and here you are again. yet next, you will be saying, why dont you see i am your friend.

 

meh...

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #86)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:31 PM

113. Well hey there, Seabeyond...

Good to see you too. What does "meh" mean?

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #113)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:42 PM

116. Meh

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Meh


Meh
Indifference; to be used when one simply does not care.
A: What do you want for dinner?
B: Meh.

Seriously?

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #116)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:46 PM

118. "Seriously?"

No.

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #82)

Mon May 18, 2015, 01:02 PM

97. No, you missed the point.

See this Op~

Women, oh yes we are.

We are proud and strong and fearless.

We have been humiliated and hurt, sometimes grievously. We have been beaten both physically and verbally. Our rights over our bodies are being taken away from us. We have been told our voice does not matter, that our voice is shrill and hurts some sensitive ears. Aaaah, such sensitive ears, so sorry that the truth hurts.

Yet in the end, we rise. We will not be beaten. We are gaining strength and our fathers our brothers our sons and our friends have our backs. The color of ones skin does not matter here, it is for every woman that we stand for. We have each others backs.

What matters is that we all stand together, we all rise together. If one group is denied equality then every single one of us will lose our integrity and our humanity.

Let's Break that Chain! All of us it is time to stand up and be heard. We have your back and you have ours!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024805722

I am talking about women and equality, we will not be silent on the social issues. I don't get why that is so hard to understand. It is why I mentioned my two nieces, I would die for them if I had to. As it stands I want a better life for them. A place where a woman has equal rights to men.

and no, I never said this, NaturalHigh.

Apparently you think that anyone who sees things differently than you should.


From some of the responses here, I see people putting words that I never said in my mouth.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #97)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:35 PM

115. No, I'm pretty sure I got the point.

I've read your OPs before.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #97)

Tue May 19, 2015, 12:22 AM

134. and no one wants you silenced but you are advised that equality does not excuse economic injustice

not even a little bit and we aren't going to be silent for any more of the Reagan Revoltion even if it's new happy warriors even if they are for equality.

We are glad they are part of the human race rather than vile dumpster juice but marks the beginning of the conversation not it's end. An absolutely fundemental prerequisite but not within eyeshot of enough with a space based telescope.

We are all people is beyond question but no everything else certainly is not just optional to me because you leave a hell of a lot of room for a great many indignities, oppression, and depravity.

No you sing loud and proud, just don't think you have to shout down, ignore, or even fight other very serious issues to do so.

I also don't get this momma bear and queen of the mountain presumption that folks concerned about economics, foreign policy, the security state, corporate capture of government, and so are somehow opposing, disinterested, or deny that we might be ahead of the curve on equality issues as well. Pretty hard to deny that no small segment of the "reality based", "pragmatic", "sensible centrist" types can be late to the party on that piece of the puzzle too no matter how fiercely they lead from behind once the heavy lifting is done and develop amnesia regarding their poo poohing and phony shrewd machinations to appease the right wing from calling them bad names and being mean old meanies.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #134)

Tue May 19, 2015, 12:25 AM

136. They go hand in hand.

Without one the other does not matter.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #136)

Tue May 19, 2015, 06:28 PM

142. Fuckin A!

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #134)

Tue May 19, 2015, 09:30 AM

140. And just to let you know, the alerter on this post got smacked

6-1 to leave the post.

Somebody wanted you silenced.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #140)

Tue May 19, 2015, 06:31 PM

143. I know they do but I appreciate the heads up. What a lackluster and sad effort.

They ought to be ashamed of the dark age, Inquisition style tactics.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 12:13 PM

87. I think I am in good standing with the group you mentioned.

 

But what I want to say is great op. So much common sense that has come to you by way of personal experiences. Keep moving forward.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 01:06 PM

100. I'm right there beside you

100% of the way.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 01:08 PM

102. Damn Good Post!

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 01:29 PM

106. Upon Re-reading ...

 

There have been times in my life where I learned your life can change on a dime. So, you know, I cannot and will not live my short life on earth in misery and despair. I have known it, not going to dwell in a dark place.




It seems some (in this thread) live for misery and despair ... and actively work to have others join them.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #106)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:09 PM

124. Lol~

Noticed that huh.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #106)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:46 PM

129. I've been moving to more non political posts and particularly OPs on DU

My posts now tend to be about the beauty I find and capture in nature, in the photography forum we don't have to fight over what brand of camera we like or how to process our pictures, we share ideas and images with each other.

But I suspect you feel that I'm one of those who "live for misery and despair" since we differ sharply quite often.

http://election.democraticunderground.com/103642617

http://election.democraticunderground.com/103642316

http://election.democraticunderground.com/103642215

From where I sit the OP radiates misery and despair like a small sun sometimes, I suppose perspectives differ on that like anything else.

I did have a fairly recent OP about the difference between knowledge and understanding, using as an example something that almost everyone knows how to do but very few actually understand how they do it.

http://election.democraticunderground.com/10026658533

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #129)

Tue May 19, 2015, 09:54 AM

141. Well said.

And your photos are excellent.

I have to start posting in the Photo Forum again.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #129)

Tue May 26, 2015, 04:03 AM

147. Without a doubt, Photo Group IS the best group of people on DU.

Just my opinion, of course, after 10 years in.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 03:53 PM

111. K & R

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:04 PM

112. Great post!

 

Thanks.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 09:52 PM

130. The pushback against the ideology that pretends it is fine to ignore or even oppose economic justice

as long as social justice gets some attention or at least a steady flow of lip service is none too soon and not nearly as strong as it should be because that belief system is broken, wrong-headed, failed, and is nothing but a wagon circling technique to protect the comfortable and wealthy above all else at the expense of the vast majority regardless of race, sex, orientation, or creed.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:37 PM

133. kick

 

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Tue May 19, 2015, 03:05 AM

139. "your life can change on a dime"

Well it can certainly change on a paycheck.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Wed May 20, 2015, 10:14 AM

145. The future for all children is all that matters. For the sake of them we cannot lose hope.

What a sad, crazy world we are leaving them. But we still have time to right the ship. I have to believe that.
Time after time it has been shown the only obstacle to creating a better future for them is corporate money.
We have to do all we can to ensure a brighter future, not fund those creating the darkness.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Tue May 26, 2015, 03:45 AM

146. People keep saying BOGGERs want GD to look like the BOG.

And ya know what, that's not a bad idea.

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