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Thu May 7, 2015, 08:30 PM

 

In defense of the need to post blasphemous caricatures

Let me make this clear at the outset: I am not a fan of Mrs Geller: her opinions can be extreme, her agenda dubious, her style confrontational and provocative, let's just forget her for a minute.

The source of the problem illustrated by the Garland TX shooting, and the Danish cartoons worldwide fury, and the Theo van Gogh killing, and the Charlie Hebdo shooting, is that one ideology, Islam, wants universal respect under pain of violent coercion.

Yes, yes, yes, most muslims are decent human beings and citizens and condemn these shootings. The problem is not people (most muslims), it's the rules of the ideology they claim to adhere to (Islam): in islamic jurisprudence, penalties for blasphemy are very stiff, death being a clear option. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy#Punishment_by_different_Islamic_schools_of_jurisprudence

Yes, yes, yes, many muslim clerics condemned the shootings in the West I quoted. But (link above), what they do not say is that blasphemy does require a stiff penalty under islamic Law (Shariah). And many other mainstream clerics living in muslim countries do not condemn such killings. Sometimes condone them (two Pakistanis burned alive for accidental damage to the pages of a Quran).

My point is one of principle: citizens in democracies should not allow free speech to be curtailed under the threats of so and so. I have a suggestion to make to make that point irrespective of Mrs Geller: let's millions of us post a caricature on their front lawn or Facebook page just to make the point no one can demand by means of threats to restrict freedom of speech. .

To make sure muslims do not feel singled out, let's add other caricatures ad lib: Buddha, the great Flying Spaghetti, Marx, GW, Jesus, whatever.

The key point is that there's no way any group can require compliance of speech. Let go of one liberty and then, when do you stop? Why not let fundamentalist christians and muslims forbid marriage equality? Drinking alcohol is offensive to Mormons and Muslims, why not forbid wine and beer? What a Brave New World we would build.

In short, Mrs Geller is the nasty knight of a just cause.


PS: an afterthought: please no ad hominem calling me an islamophobe, I'm not. I am commenting here the Garland TX shooting, Mrs Geller and free speech. But I do also call out the deficiencies of all other religions: the scourge of christian creationism vs schools, the hindu caste system, the violence in the jewish holy book, etc. Neither am I a fundamentalist atheist (whatever that means), I just am extremely attached to Freedom and Liberty.

PPS: edited the title from "In defense of Mrs Geller, nasty knight of a just cause" to "iIn defense of the need to post blasphemous caricatures" to make even clearer that the issue is NOT Mrs Geller

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Reply In defense of the need to post blasphemous caricatures (Original post)
Yorktown May 2015 OP
trumad May 2015 #1
marym625 May 2015 #2
Yorktown May 2015 #5
marym625 May 2015 #28
Yorktown May 2015 #32
marym625 May 2015 #35
Yorktown May 2015 #44
daleanime May 2015 #43
Yorktown May 2015 #46
Oktober May 2015 #75
kcr May 2015 #30
notadmblnd May 2015 #53
CrawlingChaos May 2015 #3
babylonsister May 2015 #4
Yorktown May 2015 #6
babylonsister May 2015 #7
Yorktown May 2015 #9
99Forever May 2015 #8
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99Forever May 2015 #13
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99Forever May 2015 #49
kcr May 2015 #11
Yorktown May 2015 #12
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Yorktown May 2015 #20
kcr May 2015 #21
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kcr May 2015 #24
Yorktown May 2015 #47
kcr May 2015 #56
Yorktown May 2015 #58
LeftInTX May 2015 #15
Fumesucker May 2015 #17
Yorktown May 2015 #22
Coventina May 2015 #60
Yorktown May 2015 #63
LeftInTX May 2015 #93
Coventina May 2015 #94
WinkyDink May 2015 #103
beam me up scottie May 2015 #136
treestar May 2015 #204
Fumesucker May 2015 #16
Yorktown May 2015 #19
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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Thu May 7, 2015, 08:33 PM

1. Fuck her and the train she came on!

 

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Thu May 7, 2015, 08:37 PM

2. Sorry, not buying it

Though I do not doubt your love for the first amendment, you said too much to defend the hate speech. I don't mean the freedom to spew the hate but the hate itself.

Unrec.

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Response to marym625 (Reply #2)

Thu May 7, 2015, 08:42 PM

5. I don't care about her, I care about freedom.

 

She is not important.

That some think they can shoot free speech down in the US IS important.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #5)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:21 PM

28. I am 100% for the right for people like her to be swine that they are

But you went further than that in your op. You talk about Muslims in other countries that have no problem with the killing because of Islamic law etc. There is where you lost me. Absolutely no reason for it in a discussion about the First Amendment and the horror that is Geller.

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Response to marym625 (Reply #28)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:27 PM

32. For Pete's sake, forget Geller. The problem is the ban on blasphemy

 

I personally have no particulare desire to blaspheme or disparage individual beliefs.

But deny me the right to mock your religion, and I will make a point to do it.

In short, I value the First Amendment far more than religion.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #32)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:31 PM

35. You have too much in your post to ignore it

Sorry. Obviously, I am not the only one reading it that way, including others that support the right to use first amendment rights

So your main point is lost. Perhaps look at the post if so many others see what I see.

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Response to marym625 (Reply #35)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:51 PM

44. No, the initial confusion due to the misleading original title is fading

 

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #32)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:49 PM

43. Yet you target only one religion.....

no mention of others.

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Response to daleanime (Reply #43)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:54 PM

46. Refer to the original text PS: no religion is blameless

 

I did mention I am here addressing the topic of Islam wanting to ban blaspheme.

I did post in the OP some of the many problems of the other main religions.

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Response to daleanime (Reply #43)

Fri May 8, 2015, 05:06 AM

75. While I personally will always take the chance to mock any religion...

 

Islam is the only one regularly responding to words with violence or threats of violence so they are putting themselves in a place where they need more poking and prodding.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #5)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:26 PM

30. In the same way that you do not care about her

There are some, myself included, that do not care about the cartoon(s) in particular, or even the religion involved. It is the intent that matters. That is what is being missed, here, I think. I'm very much about intent.

I do not think that every single person who draws a cartoon caricature mocking religion is evil or deserves to be shot, or that the act itself should be censored, or that every single person who does it is on par with Pamela Geller. Not everyone who draws such a cartoon does it with the same intent. It is the fact that she staged this event with the intent to draw this violent reaction to advance an agenda that is point of contention. She further endangers other people who draw cartoons who aren't evil like she is. I'd be willing to be she knows that and doesn't care. She didn't just draw a cartoon. She was using the fact that there are people who will kill for this and using them as a weapon for an agenda. To me, whether or not she was legally entitled to do that is not at issue. I think that anyone who would even consider doing such a thing is evil. I don't think anyone deserved to be murdered or that it is okay to kill someone for drawing a cartoon. I think it's wrong to use such people to manipulate an agenda.

People who truly care about free speech should be disgusted with Pamela Geller. She does not champion free speech. She weakens it.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #5)

Thu May 7, 2015, 10:27 PM

53. did she announce or post something to inform the attendees of her hateful event

that there was a high likelihood of violence? I ask this because she was informed that what she was doing was highly likely to provoke radicals to violence.

Would you still think that she was within her 1st Amendment rights and that she bears no responsibility for what occurred if she neglected to inform her consorts and other attendees?

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Thu May 7, 2015, 08:37 PM

3. UNREC

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Thu May 7, 2015, 08:40 PM

4. There's nothing about her I can see or care to defend.

She's hateful through and through and she's inspiring others to embrace her hate. But last I checked, she's not in jail.




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Response to babylonsister (Reply #4)

Thu May 7, 2015, 08:43 PM

6. Again, this post says: let's forget about her. She is not the issue.

 

Not the issue I care about at any rate.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #6)

Thu May 7, 2015, 08:45 PM

7. Then change your title. nt

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #7)

Thu May 7, 2015, 08:46 PM

9. OK, in defense of blasphemous caricatures

 

Deal?

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Thu May 7, 2015, 08:46 PM

8. You gotta right to defend haters.

Have at it.

I gotta right to tell haters to fuck off when they act like assholes.

I'll do that

Cool, huh?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #8)

Thu May 7, 2015, 08:47 PM

10. OK, OK, I'll change the title

 

in defense of blasphemous caricatures.

Better?

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #10)

Thu May 7, 2015, 08:52 PM

13. Your post, your choice.

Doesn't change that you are defending haters. Doesn't change that I won't. Ever.


But you gotta right. So do the haters.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #13)

Thu May 7, 2015, 08:55 PM

14. Well, de facto, you defend the censors.

 

Islam claims it can't be caricatured and must be respected.

I say, sod that.

Punishment by different Islamic schools of jurisprudence[edit]
The Quran does not explicitly mention any worldly punishment for blasphemy (sabb allah or sabb al-rasul), as it does for apostasy (riddah). Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh) of Sunni and Shia madhabs have declared different punishments for the religious crime of blasphemy, and they vary between schools. These are as follows:[2][3][89]

Hanafi – views blasphemy as synonymous with apostasy, and therefore, accepts the repentance of apostates. Those who refuse to repent, their punishment is death if the blasphemer is a Muslim man, and if the blasphemer is a woman, she must be imprisoned with coercion (beating) till she repents and returns to Islam.[90] If a non-Muslim commits blasphemy, his punishment must be a tazir (discretionary, can be death, arrest, caning, etc.).[6][91]
Maliki – view blasphemy as an offense distinct from, and more severe than apostasy. Death is mandatory in cases of blasphemy for Muslim men, and repentance is not accepted. For women, death is not the punishment suggested, but she is arrested and punished till she repents and returns to Islam or dies in custody.[92][93] A non-Muslim who commits blasphemy against Islam must be punished; however, the blasphemer can escape punishment by converting and becoming a devout Muslim.[94]
Hanbali – view blasphemy as an offense distinct from, and more severe than apostasy. Death is mandatory in cases of blasphemy, for both Muslim men and women, and repentance is not accepted.[95][96]
Shafi’i – recognizes blasphemy as a separate offense from apostasy, but accepts the repentance of blasphemers. If the blasphemer does not repent, the punishment is death.[97][98]
Ja'fari (Shia) – views blasphemy against Islam, the Prophet, or any of the Imams, to be punishable with death, if the blasphemer is a Muslim.[99] In case the blasphemer is a non-Muslim, he is given a chance to convert to Islam, or else killed.[100]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy#Punishment_by_different_Islamic_schools_of_jurisprudence

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #14)

Thu May 7, 2015, 10:11 PM

49. Hey, if that's what you wnat to believe, enjoy.

I just checked, and I'm fresh out of "give a fuck" about this ridiculous stupidity.

Have a nice night.

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Thu May 7, 2015, 08:49 PM

11. No, no, no. There's no defense of her.

And it really has nothing to do with free speech. She and her defenders only hide behind it to defend her. One can care about free speech and condemn her actions at the same time because one doesn't have to set the bar on right and wrong based strictly on what is legal. If you think about it, you can find actions you find reprehensible that are technically legal. You may not realize it, but it's true. Lots of awful things are actually legal. That's really not the way one should set the bar on ethical and moral decisions.

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Response to kcr (Reply #11)

Thu May 7, 2015, 08:52 PM

12. I changed the thread title, not the text

 

This should clarify that my point isn't about Pam Geller.

My point is that we need to post more caricatures of religious figures to defend free speech.

And it IS ethical to deny a religion to request deference.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #12)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:00 PM

18. Okay, but the discussion has been about Pam Geller and what she did. n/t

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Response to kcr (Reply #18)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:03 PM

20. only due to a misleading original title

 

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #20)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:04 PM

21. Um. But aren't you the OP? n/t

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Response to kcr (Reply #21)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:09 PM

23. The OP stands. The text is unchanged.

 

The title was trying to say that Geller is notthe issue. Freedom of speech is.

But it seems the mere mention of her name makes people see red. hence the change.

My only point is: I would not normally caricature anyone, or put a Christ in urine or whatever.

But tell me not to do it, and I will. Islam tells not to caricature muhamad? Then we should.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #23)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:10 PM

24. Ok. Then my post stands unchanged, too.

There. Easy

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Response to kcr (Reply #24)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:59 PM

47. Well then, we disagree. I refuse stealth blasphemy laws.

 

Having brushed aside Mrs Geller, I repeat that my beef with Islam is that its doctrine claims to stop people from blaspheme.

That's what Christianity did in the middle age. It took the late Enlightenment to force the right to mock religion.

I am just saying that the Garland killers had some liturgical ground sto shoot, and quite a few muslim clerics in the world to support their action.

And posting cartoons is a real mild form of rebellion against anti-blasphemy coercion.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #47)

Thu May 7, 2015, 11:05 PM

56. Yeah, having brushed aside Geller

Like she has no beef with Islam. Man, I can sure see why you'd brush her aside. Having nothing in common with her whatsoever Look over here... Nothing to see... Except this little beef you have with Islam.

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Response to kcr (Reply #56)

Fri May 8, 2015, 12:06 AM

58. LOL. The "little beef I have with Islam"

 

I have a beef with all religions. But as far as I know, Islam is the only one with physical penalties (up to death) for imaginary crimes (adultery, being gay, blasphemy)

If you have no beef with this doctrine, be my guest. The Mayan religion practiced human sacrifices to make the sun rise. I'd 'have a beef' with that doctrine too. Maybe not you.

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Thu May 7, 2015, 08:56 PM

15. Lets just go around insulting people and call it free speech

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #15)

Thu May 7, 2015, 08:59 PM

17. Good idea...

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #15)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:06 PM

22. ideologies are not people. religious demands deserve no respect.

 

Especially demands to comply to what they think.

I do not think prophets ever existed. I find the idea ludicrous. Funny.

I wouldn't mock that idea unless someone has the gall to stop me from mocking it.

I don't care about the Dalai Lama. Tell me not to caricature him, and I will.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #15)

Fri May 8, 2015, 12:18 AM

60. Muhammad can't be insulted. He's dead.

Very dead.
Like, 1000+ years dead.

So, yeah, I don't think anything I might say, or draw about him is "insulting" anyone.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #60)

Fri May 8, 2015, 12:56 AM

63. If only religious types could agree with you

 

OOps, almost forgot, the hadith say muhamad will participate in the sorting of souls on judgment day.

Maybe we should not mock him after all.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #60)

Fri May 8, 2015, 02:02 PM

93. She insulted Muslims

I personally don't understand what the big deal with drawing Mohammed, but I think much of these guys are motivated by political issues and not religious. (Religion is used as a cover) Pamela Geller is also advocating bombing the hell out of the ME.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #93)

Fri May 8, 2015, 03:21 PM

94. She may have insulted Muslims, but not with cartoons of Muhammad.

Grown-ups aren't insulted by cartoons.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #15)

Fri May 8, 2015, 05:59 PM

103. In point of fact, one can. Have you ever read the Rude Pundit, e.g.?

 

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #103)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:29 PM

136. +1000

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #15)

Sat May 9, 2015, 09:02 AM

204. It is - we have the First Amendment right to insult people

No one disputes that.

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Thu May 7, 2015, 08:58 PM

16. You must respect religion or you deserve eternal torture!



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #16)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:02 PM

19. I hope you are not suspecting me of unbelief?

 

I believe in the one true god (and will make meatballs sauce of anyone who disrepects Him)


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Response to Yorktown (Reply #19)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:10 PM

25. Emo Philips naiils it..

http://www.theguardian.com/stage/2005/sep/29/comedy.religion

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #25)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:16 PM

26. A very 'moving' story (with a downward direction)

 

Blasphemers are haters.

The death penalty is too good for them.

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:20 PM

27. I am Catholic. When piss Jesus

 

was the rage - I did not kill anyone.

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Response to 840high (Reply #27)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:28 PM

33. Exactly the point I was trying to make

 

Even if I am not a Catholic by any stretch of the imagination

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Response to 840high (Reply #27)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:29 PM

34. These events do not occur in a vacuum

Muslim anger is about a lot more than offensive images.

Where in the world are Catholics being subjected to the equivalent of what is happening to Muslims?

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Response to CrawlingChaos (Reply #34)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:37 PM

39. The Muslims are doing their share - I don't

 

see the Muslim community speaking out much about murders.

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Response to 840high (Reply #39)

Thu May 7, 2015, 10:14 PM

50. unbelievably ignorant statement

You'd have to live in a cave not to know how much time the Muslim community spends denouncing violence.

You say you're a Catholic? How much time do you spend denouncing the acts of pedophile priests? Or would you say their despicable actions are not in any way representative of you?

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Response to CrawlingChaos (Reply #50)

Thu May 7, 2015, 10:39 PM

54. You must live in a cave if

 

you're unaware of churches being burned and Christians killed unless they convert to Islam. Good night.

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Response to 840high (Reply #54)

Fri May 8, 2015, 01:18 AM

65. I know right? And have you heard???

There's a War on Christmas!!

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Response to CrawlingChaos (Reply #34)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:43 PM

40. there is no 'muslim' anger

 

Muslims are not a monolith. A rich Saudi, a Turkish high tech grad, an illiterate Pakistani peasant, a Shia cleric and an Algerian general do not share much. Three of them might drink alcohol, two might have wives with precious few rights, etc.

The question is not people or politics, the issue I am raising is of doctrine: the blasphemy laws held by the religious hierarchy must be challenged.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #40)

Thu May 7, 2015, 10:17 PM

51. Well sure, what could they possibly have to be angry about?

And I'm sure your motives are pure as the driven snow.

'Scuse me, gotta barf from too much time spent in this thread.

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Response to CrawlingChaos (Reply #51)

Fri May 8, 2015, 12:01 AM

57. Unlike what you appear to think, 1.6Bn muslims are not an homogeneous body

 

Most would say GW's war in Iraq was dumb, and so would most people in the West.

Other than that, there are no shared grievances,

at most a fear of the loss of conservative patriarchal values to western liberal morality.

But most religious conservatives in the West had the same feeling last century and got over it.

Now, as for your barf, I suggest you go and see a doctor.

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Response to CrawlingChaos (Reply #34)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:51 PM

45. the radicals are doing a lot in many countries

raping women and girls
beheading people
destroying churches

try being a Christian in Pakistan.

what about the anger of the countries attacked by the moghuls? where do you think the muslims in pakistan came from? Many forced to convert or be beheaded.

there's a lot of anger, and it's not just where you said

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Response to CrawlingChaos (Reply #34)

Fri May 8, 2015, 02:07 AM

68. "Where in the world are Catholics being subjected to the equivalent of what is happening to Muslims?

 

Can you seriously be asking this?

Do you not follow the news outside of what happens in the US?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #68)

Fri May 8, 2015, 02:16 AM

70. No pockets of anti-Christian persecution can compare to Western Imperialism

It is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

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Response to CrawlingChaos (Reply #70)

Fri May 8, 2015, 02:52 AM

72. You have no idea what you are talking about

 

Christianity is the largest and most widely spread faith in the world, with 2.2 billion followers, or 32 percent of the world population, according to a survey by the U.S.-based Pew Forum on religion and Public Life.

It faces restrictions and hostility in 111 countries, ahead of the 90 countries limiting or harassing the second-largest faith, Islam, another Pew survey has reported.

Michel Varton, head of Open Doors France, told journalists in Strasbourg that failing states with civil wars or persistent internal tensions were often the most dangerous for Christians.

"In Syria, another war is thriving in the shadow of the civil war -- the war against the church," he said while presenting the Open Doors report there.

About 10 percent of Syrians are Christians. Many have become targets for Islamist rebels who see them as supporters of President Bashar al-Assad.

Nine of the 10 countries listed as dangerous for Christians are Muslim-majority states, many of them torn by conflicts with radical Islamists. Saudi Arabia is an exception but ranked sixth because of its total ban on practicing faiths other than Islam.

In the list of killings, Syria was followed by Nigeria with 612 cases last year after 791 in 2012. Pakistan was third with 88, up from 15 in 2012. Egypt ranked fourth with 83 deaths after 19 the previous year.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/08/us-christianity-persecution-report-idUSBREA070PB20140108

Incidentally, Western Imperialism impacts people of all religions.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #72)

Fri May 8, 2015, 03:22 AM

73. OMG - try harder

This is in no way an equivalence to anyone with eyes and ears.

The wording of that article made me suspicious. I've never heard Open Doors - would this be them?

https://www.opendoors.org/

Does not look very objective to me. Lots of stuff about bible training and bible delivery. The same article is prominently featured on many right wing sites. Frankly, it reads a lot like a Bill O'Reilly rant. But maybe that doesn't bother you.

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Response to CrawlingChaos (Reply #70)

Fri May 8, 2015, 05:42 AM

77. No pockets of anti-Christian persecution can compare to Western Imperialism?? Really???

 

Anti Christian persecution in India, Nigeria or Pakistan involve anti Christian lynchings.

Please describe where big bad western imperialists are currently involved in lynchings?

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #77)

Fri May 8, 2015, 06:07 AM

82. Please describe where...

a superpower and it's allies systematically demonize a people in order to facilitate invading their lands and stealing their resources, resulting in inestimable suffering including deaths in the millions.

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Response to CrawlingChaos (Reply #34)

Sat May 9, 2015, 03:45 PM

229. Under jihadi rule!!! n/t

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Response to 840high (Reply #27)

Fri May 8, 2015, 02:02 AM

67. Guess how many billions of Muslims have never killed anyone. nt

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Response to greyl (Reply #67)

Fri May 8, 2015, 05:37 AM

76. However, they subscribe to a faith...

 

... That, following the letter of their texts, would require them to for a multitude of reasons.

It's all a millstone on the neck of humanity...

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Response to Oktober (Reply #76)

Fri May 8, 2015, 05:51 AM

79. Plus the fact many muslims only know their faith second hand

 

30% of the world's muslims are illiterate (UNESCO 2010) and rely on what the imam says.

Among the literate, a good many belong to radical islam countries (petromonarchies, Iran)

or are enrolled in free radical schools (the poor of Pakistan have to rely on hard madrasas)

All these folks are as good as anyone, but fed a radical doctrine

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Response to 840high (Reply #27)

Sat May 9, 2015, 08:57 AM

201. Most Muslims don't either.

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:24 PM

29. IMHO, blasphemy is not only a freedom, it is obligatory.

Here's my cartoon of Mohammed:
{:-|

I'd put a cartoon of Jesus and Buddha, too. But those wouldn't be blasphemy, now would they.

Fuck Jesus. <== That's blasphemy.
Fuck Buddha. <== That, too (although I am not sure of what would be blasphemy in Buddhism.)
Moses never existed. <== nobody is immune from blasphemy, nor should they be.

It is all free speech, guaranteed by the US Constitution.

Condemning it because somebody got insulted and attempted murder because of the insult is very weird. I condemn the attempted murder.

And no, I do not agree with the right wing lunatic that started this, but I defend her right to do it. Under our Constitution that is what I have to do.

And no, drawing Mohammed is not crying "FIRE!" in a theater, unless one presumes Islam is a violent religion, which I do not. I do not like religion at all, but I think most folks, religious or otherwise are basically good folks. It is the crazy fundamentalists which are the problem, those who murder because of a perceived butt hurt. Fuck them, too. (D'ya see what I did there?)

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Response to longship (Reply #29)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:32 PM

36. Blasphemy is obligatory IF someone tries to stop you from doing it

 

If believers let say what they want (including blasphemy),

they will have removed the mandatory character of blaspheme.

Anyone claiming they will enforce a blasphemy ban, we should all blaspheme the next minute.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #36)

Thu May 7, 2015, 10:10 PM

48. Well, there are plenty of people trying to stop blasphemy.

In many places you die for it.

That is why I gladly blaspheme, and why I think everybody ought to take joy in it as well. Nobody's beliefs are beyond question, evidence, or ridicule. Nobody. Not even mine... Especially not mine!

But people have to let this shit go, or we will never progress much further than those horrible genocides of the Pentateuch, where Jahweh commanded that all men, children, animals, and women who had known man should be slaughtered, but keep the virgin women for yourselves.

One might argue that these were Biblical marriages. If so, I haven't heard such from the Bible toting, quoting GOP.

Religion disgusts me. But freedom of conscience is more important.

I don't give a fuck what other people believe (or not believe). However, I might very well have something to say about how they act. That is my measure.

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:26 PM

31. True, but you also need to look at the event in context.

1. It was not just an exhibit. She had a series of prominent anti-Muslim figures as speakers.
2. The event was held by her organization which has been classified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.
3. The keynote speaker, Dutch politician Geert Wilders, wants to kill all the Muslims in Amsterdam.
4, it was held in a town where there has been ongoing tensions between Muslim residents on one side and pretty much everyone else on the other.


She may not have planned for police officers to get shot, but she did this in the hopes something will happen that grabs enough headlines to further her cause.

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Response to RandySF (Reply #31)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:35 PM

37. Forget the context, forget Geller: my point is on free speech

 

The doctrine of Islam forbids blasphemy.

The Council of Islamic States tried to pass that as a UN resolution.

The answer is to post caricatures to force a reform of the doctrine of Islam.

Can't have both free speech and blasphemy laws.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #37)

Fri May 8, 2015, 06:29 PM

106. So posting offensive caricatures ...

... will force a reform of the doctrine of Islam?

Now there's some sound thinking.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #106)

Fri May 8, 2015, 09:35 PM

125. Yes, absolutely

 

The reformists in Islam will not win their struggle inside that religion if people from outside give in to the demands of the hard line muslims.

Let one thousand caricatures flourish, and it will force a debate within Islam about their right to demand a ban on mockery.

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:37 PM

38. There is no "need" to post blasphemous caricatures.

And that IS the point.

Before Ms. Geller's self-serving stunt, was any US citizen unaware of their right to create blasphemous cartoons? Who was she proving that point to? Why did it need to be "proven", or even demonstrated? What purpose did it serve, other than to feed into her own bigotry, and her pitiful attempt to make this issue all about herself and her own skewed thinking?

Pretending this event was about the exercise of free speech is beyond abhorrent.

Under the protections of the First Amendment, I have a RIGHT to call gay men, lesbians, African-Americans, Asian-Americans, Jews, Christians, the poor, the homeless, the poverty-stricken and welfare recipients all kinds of hateful names. But I have no NEED to do so in order to prove that I have that right.

Not a single American challenged Geller's First Amendment rights. So why was she compelled to PROVE that she had that right, in the face of no challenge to it being voiced?

Geller MADE herself the issue. Let's not sink so low as to pretend it was ever about anything more than her own ego, and furthering her own sick agenda.



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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #38)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:48 PM

42. Were the Charlie Hebdo people Pamela geller?

 

There IS a need to challenge the religious arrogance which has the pretension to ban mockery.

And to ban it forcibly in democracies.

The point of this thread is that it is a NEED to deny stealth blasphemy laws.

I changed the title of this thread to remove any mention of Pam Geller. She is not the issue.

The issue is that the BBC did not dare show the Charlie Hebdo cartoons for fear of reprisal.

That is stealth censorship which NEEDS to be fought.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #42)

Thu May 7, 2015, 10:22 PM

52. One has a right ...

... one might even say an obligation in some circumstances, to defend their right of free speech.

Geller's rights were not challenged, nor even questioned. Unless she's a complete idiot (and the jury is still out on that charge), she KNEW what her rights were. Ergo, there was no need to defend them, nor prove their existence or her right to exercise them.

Thanks to the First Amendment, there is no need for any US citizen to disrespect anyone's religious beliefs in order to PROVE they can do so. We all KNOW they can do so. So what makes a demonstration of the right to free speech necessary in that regard?

Had someone - anyone - said to Geller, "You have no right to do what you're planning to do," and she created this event in order to demonstrate that she DID have that right, that would be a different story.

But that's not what happened here - and we both know that.

You can change the title of your OP a thousand times - doesn't change the fact that we know who is being discussed, and why.

We don't have "stealth blasphemy laws" in the US. Ergo, there is no need to challenge a non-existent law, is there?

If Geller wants to challenge blasphemy laws, she can go to countries where they exist and challenge them there.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #52)

Fri May 8, 2015, 12:14 AM

59. Well, some DU'rs here support tacit blasphemy laws.

 

One religious doctrine says mocking it is a blasphemy physically punishable wherever and whenever it's 'committed' (blasphemy doctrine). Those here who say that publishing cartoons mocking religion should be avoided because it's inciting a violent backlash are giving in to that blasphemy doctrine, therefore creating tacit de facto blasphemy laws.

And we are discussing it because two guys took guns to enforce those laws. I don't give a rat's ass who posted the cartoons and why. I held the same view at the time of the Charlie Hebdo shootings, and Charlie Hebdo is at a political polar opposite from Mrs Geller.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #59)

Fri May 8, 2015, 12:36 AM

61. We, as a nation ...

... have no laws which make mocking religious beliefs a crime. Ergo, Geller (and those of her ilk) are not fighting back against anything that is a threat to freedom of speech.

We are not (as of this writing) governed by "religious doctrine". Therefore, attempting to demonstrate that we are not so governed is an unnecessary exercise. (e.g. Women stopped demonstrating about not being allowed to vote the minute they were allowed to vote. Why does Ms. Geller feel compelled to "defend a right" she unquestionably already has?)

As I said, if Ms. Geller wants to challenge blasphemy laws, she should do so in countries where such laws actually exist.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #61)

Fri May 8, 2015, 12:52 AM

62. We, as a nation ...

 

... and as most other western nations have a growing diversification of our ethnic backgrounds resulting from more diverse sources of immigration.

While it is generally speaking favoring a richer melting pot, it does create the reimportation of old issues that had been more or less settled. Religious violence is one of them.

By and large, Europeans and the Founding Fathers instituted a freedom of religion with a very clear objective: to avoid at all costs a replication of the horrors of the Thirty Years war which decimated Europe on religious grounds. Aside from Ireland, religious violence more or less disppeared.

What Charlie Hebdo and Garland illustrate is that immigrants from muslim countries who imported with them their belief in islamic jurisprudence have not adhered yet to that ban on religious violence and wish to recreate blasphemy laws.

We might have no laws which make mocking religious beliefs a crime, but there is a growing number of people who wish there was. Publishing blasphemous caricatures is a way to call out for a debate to rally everyone on board of a taboo on religious violence. However 'offensive' a cartoon might be. And people here who think that a "tacit blasphemy law" (i.e. a self imposed restraint from offending religion) will make the risk of a growing religious intolerance are IMHO misguided.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #62)

Fri May 8, 2015, 01:04 AM

64. ...

"Publishing blasphemous caricatures is a way to call out for a debate to rally everyone on board of a taboo on religious violence ..."

No, it's not. Who in this country needs to be "rallied on board" when it comes to "religious violence"? When was this even debatable?

Refraining from insulting another's religious beliefs is not a "self imposed restraint from offending religion" - it is a self-imposed restrain from being offensive just for the sake of being so, and for no other purpose.

Geller was being offensive "for no other purpose".

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #64)

Fri May 8, 2015, 01:52 AM

66. ... but no cigar

 

Who in this country needs to be "rallied on board" when it comes to "religious violence"?


I said it above: those among the new origins of immigrants who have imported with them the belief in religious violence of their cultures of origin.

Take the often well educated muslims of Iranian origin who fled the Khomeini revolution: they are less likely to adhere to religious fundamentalism.

But among the often poor and uneducated refugees of Somali origin resettled in the Detroit region, there are reports of fundamentalism, including a belief in the use of violence in the case of blasphemy.

And "Refraining from insulting another's religious beliefs" is not a "self-imposed restrain from being offensive just for the sake of being so", it can be cowardice. As the BBC demonstrated by refraining from showing the Charlie Hebdo caricatures to the audience of a show even after having asked the audience whether they wanted the cartoons to be shown to illustrate and clarify the debate.

We are not talking about pamela Geller here, we are talking about a TV show which was debating free speech vs religion. The audience ask to see the cartoons, it was relevant to the discussion, the channel management had pre-written a letter barring the presentation of the cartoons.

That is the creeping self imposed censorship that is rising.

That is what I am seething against.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #66)

Fri May 8, 2015, 05:47 AM

78. Yr seething about the BBC choosing to be culturally sensitive??

The BBC isn't American so what business is it of yrs? I thought you were talking about the US? Over here the media choose not to publish the names or show images of recently deceased high profile Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders because it's offensive to that minority group. Would you be seething because the media choose to do that. Would you urge all Australians to whack up an image on their front lawn or FB of the next high profile indigenous Australian who dies? Because it appears to me that yr seething about others making a different choice to what you'd make.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #78)

Fri May 8, 2015, 06:14 AM

83. I am not a nationalist

 

My only commitment is to simple basic universal values: freedom being high on the list. So I cheer when I see these values progress anywhere on earth: the fall of the Berlin Wall or Tien an men were great moments.

And I gnarl when I see these values squandered away. I cringed when I saw the replay of that BBC show where the audience asked to see drawings relevant to a discussion and were denied their wish. That was like seeing a piece of magna carta heritage being thrown to the dustbin. But you, as a British citizen, might individually not object to infringements to freedom of expression in the name of 'cultural sensitivity'?

Now if you're telling me anything that can be potentially 'offensive' to any 'minority group' should not be shown, fine: I'll just ask that no place of worship ever be shown on TV. They are centers of cultural indoctrination which I object to. Show me my request isn't as reasonable as prohibiting the display of drawings to illustrate a debate on free speech. And tell me who decides on which minority has a right to object and block what information.

PS: a good many journalists have gone on record stating that one factor that tilted the balance against showing the controversial cartoons in their paper or channel was fear of an attack and/or fear of an increase in their insurance premium. Doesn't sound like cultural sensitivity to me. More like being bullied. At the end of the day, might is right?

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #83)

Fri May 8, 2015, 06:30 AM

86. And I am not a British citizen...

Now if you're telling me anything that can be potentially 'offensive' to any 'minority group' should not be shown, fine:


No, I didn't say that. What I said was that the BBC can choose whether or not they want to show something and if you've got a problem with it, tough shit. Same as it's a big tough shit to anyone who thinks the media here is pandering to a minority group in the example I gave you in my other post about Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders.

No-one gets to block anything, and anyone who thinks their 'freedom of speech' is endangered is out of touch with reality.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #86)

Fri May 8, 2015, 09:32 PM

123. Fine then, you are in denial ..

 

.. of the fact the BBC blocked the freedom of the public to access information (see the cartoons) despite clear consent by a group of its representatives (the audience) for arbitrary reasons whose motives were unclear and highly questionable.

The real motivations behind the self censorship did include fear of reprisal and of insurance premium increase.

Anyone denying free speech was not curtailed for all the wrong reasons is out of touch with reality AND in denial.

Because I already stated some journalists are on record stating fear was the deciding factor in blocking the cartoons.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #123)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:50 PM

150. Has it occurred to you that the entire world isn't obsessed with drawing fucking Mohammed?

You act as though the entire world is in imminent danger if everyone doesn't jump on the Pamela Geller bandwagon. Instead of seething and raging because a British, not American, media outlet CHOSE not to do something you demand they do, how about showing yr interest in free speech isn't confined to just things that some Muslims find offensive. So I'm interested in seeing yr howls of outrage that you would have posted back when there were threads here about the Charlie Hebdo cartoonist who was fired for expressing his freedom of speech.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #150)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:00 PM

153. Has it occured tyo you it's a topic of the week?

 

I'll discuss other topics next week, assuming there are no other religiously motivated shootings next week.

And at the time of Charlie Hebdo, I was incensed, and have already stated so. Again, I don't care about Geller.

As for the BBC, yes, I was vaguely aware that the first B of BBC might stand for the word 'British' which might be an indication it was not an American organization, thank you for your kind reminder of the fact.

Aside from the fact I might have some personal connection there, as a citizen of the democratic world, I feel personal outrage whenever I see freedoms attacked. It doesn't seem to be your case. So be it.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #153)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:13 PM

156. So's Pam Geller, but you've been demanding people forget about her...

So where are the links to all yr seething posts condemning the attack on freedom of speech by the sacking of that cartoonist?

I haven't seen anyone attacking yr freedom. I'll be sure to be seething with outrage when that actually happens...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #156)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:43 PM

167. LOL what a deft discussionist you are

 

Try raising as many side issues as you can, please do carry on fixating on the word seething, please do raise big bad strawmen about my personal freedom being attacked.

Let's play your game: here is what Voltaire wrote to Frederic, the King of Prussia:
{Christianity} is assuredly the most ridiculous, the most absurd and the most bloody religion which has ever infected this world. Your Majesty will do the human race an eternal service by extirpating this infamous superstition, .. My one regret in dying is that I cannot aid you in this noble enterprise, the finest and most respectable which the human mind can point out..

Since I am an atheist underdog in a world with a religious majority, would you defend my right to add:
{Islam} is assuredly the most ridiculous, the most absurd and the most bloody religion which has ever infected this world. The public will do the human race an eternal service by extirpating this infamous superstition, .. My one regret in dying is that I cannot see this noble enterprise completed, the finest and most respectable which the human mind can point out..

And speaking of freedom and liberty of expression, a question: which major newspaper would publish that?

Please help me get this printed in a column in the Herald Sun.

I am an underdog.



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Response to Yorktown (Reply #167)

Sat May 9, 2015, 12:01 AM

178. So I take that as 'nope, I never posted anything condemning the sacking of that cartoonist'

I'm not sure how it works where you proclaim that anything you don't want to talk about is a 'side issue'. I mean, you told us all you seethe about the BBC, so don't complain when you get reminded of that.

Y'know, one thing is pretty clear here. It's that Americans freedom of speech isn't under attack in any way.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #83)

Sat May 9, 2015, 09:17 AM

205. Well why don't you use the N word - don't you have to in order

to uphold free speech?

We don't have to be offensive in order to uphold free speech. That's a separate issue.

You seem to actually be claiming we do, so why limit it to Muslims and what offends them?

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Response to treestar (Reply #205)

Sat May 9, 2015, 10:13 PM

232. the N word is directed to the nature of people, religion is not

 

People who currently are muslims can change.

Islam is an ideology which promotes sexism, religious intolerance and censorship.

That seems to be sound basis for criticism. Sorry if current believers are hurt in the process.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #83)

Sat May 9, 2015, 09:20 AM

206. People who want to see it can go and find it

The BBC does not have to publish it.

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Response to treestar (Reply #206)

Sat May 9, 2015, 10:31 PM

234. "Let people find it elsewhere" is a nice cover for censorship

 

Sure, let's ban from the mainstream media some info some people object to.

Let people take the time and effort to retrieve it, even if it pertains to the point discussed.

Brilliant empowerment of censorship.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #234)

Sun May 10, 2015, 07:17 AM

235. It's not censorship

It's up to the BBC what they want to cover. But it's still out there to find if you want it.

I would like the BBC to do a novel based on the life of Jane Austen. They choose not to. How dare they? They are censoring information on a great writer. Oh wait, I can go to the library.

You can't demand a media fulfill your personal interests.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #59)

Sat May 9, 2015, 09:01 AM

203. What a straw man

No one supports any blasphemy laws. There are no "tacit" laws. A law is a law. Gellar is not in prison and there's no threat of her being arrested or charged under blasphemy laws because there are no blasphemy laws.

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Response to treestar (Reply #203)

Sat May 9, 2015, 10:19 PM

233. "tacit laws" means unwritten rules which are enforced by fear

 

I already explained journalists of different mainstream media admitted their media self censored some religiously 'offensive' material for the main reason that it would invite attacks against their offices or cause an increase an insurance premium increase.

I hope I clarified this point once and for all.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #52)

Fri May 8, 2015, 02:16 AM

69. There is no need for any US citizen to disrespect anyone's political beliefs either

 

Yet I hear there are entire websites where people make fun of Republicans - including posting images that are insulting to some of their most beloved icons. It's good that folks can feel free to do that without fear of being killed. Imagine if they couldn't.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #69)

Fri May 8, 2015, 02:27 AM

71. One's religious beliefs ...

... and one's political beliefs are two different things.

Trying to equate the two is demonstrative of a profound ignorance of both.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #71)

Fri May 8, 2015, 05:52 AM

80. Politics and politicians are real...

 

You can make a case that an attack against an actual individual was out of line.

How can you cross a line on a figment of imagination?

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Response to Oktober (Reply #80)

Fri May 8, 2015, 04:59 PM

95. Whether you believe that another's deity ...

... is a "figment of the imagination" or not is beside the point.

Geller's only purpose here was to denigrate the faith of others. It had nothing to do with politics, nor freedom of speech.

THAT is the point.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #95)

Fri May 8, 2015, 05:09 PM

96. What is wrong with mocking folks who believe in something they've never seen...

 

If it was leprechauns you'd haul them off to the loony bin.

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Response to Oktober (Reply #96)

Fri May 8, 2015, 05:50 PM

100. What's wrong with NOT mocking such folks?

Exactly what purpose is served by doing so?

Is it a matter of just because I CAN do this, I will"?

Sounds rather childish to me. YMMV.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #100)

Fri May 8, 2015, 06:41 PM

108. Just trying to move humanity beyond the dark ages...

 

You know... With words...

As opposed to some others who think the answer to discussion, even heated discussion, is violence.

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Response to Oktober (Reply #108)

Fri May 8, 2015, 06:51 PM

110. And mocking the religious beliefs of others ...

... is what will "move humanity beyond the dark ages"?

Sounds more like stepping back into the dark ages to me.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #110)

Fri May 8, 2015, 07:07 PM

111. Absolutely...

 

It's what we do to racists and bigots nowadays...

Verbally shame and mock them to the point where they feel unwelcome in society and over time the defective behavior is reduced.

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Response to Oktober (Reply #111)

Fri May 8, 2015, 07:14 PM

113. So ...

People of religious faith are the same as racists and bigots?

Are you at all familiar with history? Jews were mocked and scorned for centuries in Christian nations. Catholics were mocked and scorned in the wake of the Reformation.

And you don't see any Jews or Catholics around anymore, do ya? That worked out well.

The only racism and bigotry I'm seeing here is your own.



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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #113)

Fri May 8, 2015, 07:44 PM

114. Different categories...

 

... But still a defective behavior to be eventually removed from society.

Apples to oranges but both still fruit...

On a related noted... All of those groups you listed were mocked and attacked and murdered by other religious groups who believed that their sky dad could beat up the other guys sky dad.

Take religion out of the picture and folks start getting along much better...

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Response to Oktober (Reply #114)

Fri May 8, 2015, 08:03 PM

116. Well, you just go ahead and do that ...

... "take religion out of the picture", and "remove it from society".

I'm sure you'll be wildly successful in doing so.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #116)

Fri May 8, 2015, 08:23 PM

121. I doubt I will see it...

 

... but I'm an optimist and think humanity will continue to evolve unless we blow ourselves up or some such.

Maybe in a 1000 years or so, if humanity makes it, we will look back on it as the backwards sign of primitivity it was.

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Response to Oktober (Reply #121)

Fri May 8, 2015, 09:19 PM

122. A thousand years from now ...

... people will still hold religious beliefs.

Your naivete in that regard is almost laughable.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #122)

Fri May 8, 2015, 09:34 PM

124. Hey, you're pessimistic...

 

I like to think of the positive outcomes.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #122)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:13 PM

129. Hopefully, religion will be gone in one or two millenia

 

Two millenia ago, most people on earth were polytheists believing natural events had occult causes.

As more and more people become litterate, as more and more further their studies after High School, belief in the unexisting will recede.

If only because a vast majority of believers today are not aware of the fact their sacred books do not hold water vs reality (creation, adam, moses, all the glaring contradictions in the Quran)

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #129)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:49 PM

172. Yeah, that'll happen. n/t

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #172)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:57 PM

177. Probably, and hopefully, yes.

 

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #177)

Sat May 9, 2015, 12:01 AM

179. Religion has existed since the dawn of time ...

... but I am sure, now that you're on the case, it will be eradicated without much further ado.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #179)

Sat May 9, 2015, 12:07 AM

181. Cannibalism has existed since the dawn of time..

 

My assertion is demonstrable. Yours is not.

Human history is 8000 years old. Cannibalism is nearly, not totally, extinct.

Religion is less harmful than cannibalism. That's why it will stay a while longer.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #181)

Sat May 9, 2015, 12:12 AM

182. ...

...

Bye now!

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Response to Oktober (Reply #108)

Sat May 9, 2015, 09:23 AM

208. You could choose to do that politely

Or in a thousand other ways. In fact, mocking them lets them play the victim, no? That gains sympathy. I doubt anyone is convinced out of something they believe by someone else making fun of it. At least if it's an important belief to them and they are out of high school.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #100)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:14 PM

157. You claimed that scientologists are inferior to other believers.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6644743

Seems like you're being bigoted towards one religion.

Sounds rather childish to me. YMMV.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #157)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:34 PM

164. Where did I say ...

... that "Scientologists are inferior to other believers"?

Again, the need to misquote in order to make a non-point.

Have a good evening.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #164)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:35 PM

166. Most athiests I know declare them all equally "unreal".

Because they are.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #71)

Fri May 8, 2015, 05:56 AM

81. If only that were true....

Oh, how I wish it were. Sadly the religious intertwine their beliefs with politics so very much.

If they really were two very different and separate things many of us would never take issue with it. The reality is that they force it on society with laws based on their beliefs. Just as the folks in Indiana, any member of the LGBT community or any woman who strongly values reproductive choice.

Denying the link between religion and politics is what's profoundly ignorant.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #81)

Fri May 8, 2015, 05:15 PM

97. I didn't deny ...

... that there is a link between religion and politics - merely that they are two separate things.

Believing Christ was the son of God is not a political statement; running for office is not a religious statement.

Some politicians endeavour to "link" the two - that doesn't make them one and the same. That's why separation of Church and State exists - although too many try to ignore that separation as frequently as they can get away with.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #97)

Fri May 8, 2015, 05:18 PM

98. It makes them fair game for criticism and mockery.

I'll stop ridiculing organized religion when they stop threatening my autonomy and the autonomy of millions of other women and LGBT.

Until then, fair game.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #98)

Fri May 8, 2015, 05:54 PM

101. Religion is not something you fight ...

... it's always going to be here.

What you can fight is the imposition of religion on anyone.

Organized religion can threaten all they want - it is a moot point. It is the legislators who take up their cause that are the problem, not the religion itself.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #101)

Fri May 8, 2015, 05:56 PM

102. Oh bull. They politicize from the pulpit and fund issues and politicians to push their dogma.

They are a huge part of the problem.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #102)

Fri May 8, 2015, 06:15 PM

105. Yeah, okay, whatever.

If you think mocking religion is going to stop any of that, you go ahead and do that.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #105)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:34 PM

141. You just insulted scientolgists by saying they weren't part of a religion.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6644743

How is what you did any better than "mocking" religion?

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #141)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:17 PM

158. I didn't mock Scientology.

I said it wasn't a religion. And it's not.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #158)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:20 PM

159. Is Mormonism "real"? Are there any other "not real" religions?

Most athiests I know declare them all equally "unreal".

Because they are.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #158)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:22 PM

161. You judged all scientolgists because you met a few you didn't like.

Scientology is not an adherence to a faith or creed. It is a money-making pyramid scheme that fought to be recognized as a "religion" for the sole purpose of obtaining tax-exempt status. I've known more than a few in my day - they're not about what one believes; they're about how much money one is willing to fork over.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6645160


It's a religion to its followers, claiming that they're inferior to other believers is EXACTLY what Geller and her kind do.

All animals are created equal...

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #161)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:29 PM

162. Where did I say ...

... that I "judged all Scientologists because I met a few I didn't like"?

I grow increasingly frustrated arguing with people on DU who challenge what I DIDN'T say, as opposed to what I DID say.

I am not alone in that regard. I see it happening on a very regular basis to a lot of posters here.

In the end, it is not worth responding to.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #162)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:45 PM

169. You scolded people for mocking one religion but see nothing wrong with what you said?

Why do you single out only one religion for criticism? Their belief is just as real to them as any other follower.

At least most atheists are consistent.

All of it is bunk.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #161)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:32 PM

163. If you think that's EXACTLY what Pammy Geller does you don't much much about Geller...

She advocates genocide. She cheered the slaughter of those Norwegian teenagers a few years back. She's an opponent of free speech. Then there's the wacky batshit crazy shit she says about Obama.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #163)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:44 PM

168. I don't see much difference between her and other bigots.

People who say they want lgbt people to die from AIDS or that sickle cell anemia is the great white hope are just as reprehensible.

The pope compared gender theory to Nazi propaganda and says same sex marriage destroys families and he's hailed as a progressive.

Geller is no worse than any other bigot who uses hate speech to further her agenda.

We could compare horrible ideology all night but I bet we'd just end up agreeing that it's all horrible.


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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #98)

Sat May 9, 2015, 09:32 AM

210. Not every single religious person feels exactly the same

Some people can be religious and support women's or gay rights.

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Response to treestar (Reply #210)

Sat May 9, 2015, 09:46 AM

212. You must think I'm an idiot. As an athiest, I'm a minority. I know lots of religious people.

You're not telling me anything I don't know. I used the term "organized religion" and not "every religious person on the entire planet" for a reason.

I blame the institutions and the leaders. Though I do often remind my liberal friends who belong to the harmful larger organizations that, despite their liberal beliefs, they directly contribute to the massive harm being done to women and LGBT by their financial and social support of them.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #212)

Sat May 9, 2015, 09:49 AM

213. Your prior post did seem to apply a very broad brush

To me, at least.

I disagree - your liberal friends might be helping other church people be more liberal minded. I don't think refusing to speak to people or associate with them is any way to get them to your way of thinking. You have to interact with them.

Society in general is becoming more broad minded and that includes religious believers. The fundies simply make the most noise. The outrageous gets media attention more than the general atmosphere.

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Response to treestar (Reply #213)

Sat May 9, 2015, 09:52 AM

214. Who said anything about "refusing to speak or associate with" them"?

Two posts in a row now you're accusing me of saying something I didn't.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #214)

Sat May 9, 2015, 11:51 AM

217. Well then I take that back

I am referring to what you said to your liberal friends who go to the church. They are helping, you say, so you think they should quit the church rather than stay in it would follow. If they don't associate with church people presumably they would stop helping this anti-woman and anti-gay agenda. So it seems reasonable they should stop doing that. That's just my abbreviation for the way people argue that associating with other people means they get their ideas drilled into you, like the Hillary Kissinger crap and the types of things that right wingers use to claim Obama must be a communist.

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Response to treestar (Reply #213)

Sat May 9, 2015, 09:53 AM

215. By the way, have you seen the laws being passed regarding reproductive choice?

The religious are NOT becoming more broad-minded. They are digging their heels in and getting worse.

They need to be reigned in and called out on their bullshit.

Oh right, you're the one who basically told me that we should STFU because Roe v Wade is still the law.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #215)

Sat May 9, 2015, 11:54 AM

218. Do you have to take everything at its most possible worst intent

and then be so nasty?

I just differ with you. I don't think the trend goes the way the fundies want, and that's a good thing, and after 30 years they have not gotten Roe v. Wade overturned. And I never tell anyone to shut the FU. Geez I was trying to point out something positive. There is no going back. That's why the fundies are so rabid and hysterical and therefore say and do outrageous things, which gets them in the news.

I don't see why you have to be so quick to be a victim and so quick to attack. This is why it's hard to discuss anything on DU these days. Nobody is trying to tell you not to worry about right wingers. I just think it's hopeless for them in the long run.

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Response to treestar (Reply #218)

Sat May 9, 2015, 12:19 PM

220. "Nasty"? "Attack"? What the fuck?

Reread what I wrote, reread what you wrote and then look in the mirror and realize how you contribute to making things difficult to discuss on DU.

You really seem to have an altered sense of reality.

"I don't see why you have to be so quick to be a victim and so quick to attack. "

Women's autonomy and LGBT rights are under constant and direct attack by religious organizations in this country. Stating that fact is not an attack. Those issues are more important to me than worrying about the precious feelings of those responsible for the attacks on our rights.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #220)

Sat May 9, 2015, 12:21 PM

221. geez I am on the same fucking side as you are

I do not agree there is a chance they will be able to turn back the clock to 1950.

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Response to treestar (Reply #221)

Sat May 9, 2015, 12:30 PM

223. Are you completely unaware of the legislation restricting access to abortion?

The number of clinics closing? Women being jailed for miscarriages? TRAP laws? Hobby Lobby? RFRA laws? They don't need to overturn Roe v Wade, they're making significant progress in making reproductive service less available already.

Silly me, I thought you read DU and knew about that stuff.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #223)

Sat May 9, 2015, 03:26 PM

225. Of course they read DU, PeaceNikki.

But every time we mention the war on women their eyes glaze over and all they see is just another "attack on the religious".

Criticism of religion is what gets them outraged.

Not the atrocious things the religious are doing.


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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #225)

Sat May 9, 2015, 03:31 PM

226. If we'd just stop being so hysterical we could see that Jesus only gives us what we can handle.

Shhhhhhh, bmus, it'll be OK.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #226)

Sat May 9, 2015, 03:40 PM

227. We should trust the religious to stop themselves from oppressing us.

Jesus wouldn't let them, just look at slavery.

And we wouldn't want to offend anyone.


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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #81)

Sat May 9, 2015, 03:49 PM

230. Yes, you are right.

Plenty of religious ideas have real world impacts.

This is so for all religions, and in good ways and bad. When Buddhists preach and act with compassion, they may advocate for laws that act with compassion, such as providing refuge for those threatened. When Catholics preach the social Gospel, it's SUPPOSED to have an impact on political activity and the political agendas Catholics support in their countries.



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Response to oberliner (Reply #69)

Sat May 9, 2015, 09:22 AM

207. We are only guaranteed we will not be arrested and prosecuted for a crime

Not that we won't be killed for it. That can always happen. You don't know that some Republican won't go nuts and kill over it.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #42)

Sat May 9, 2015, 08:59 AM

202. There are no blasphemy laws in the United States

And no fear that there ever will be in the foreseeable future.

There is no censorship in the United States.

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Thu May 7, 2015, 09:47 PM

41. you make good points

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Thu May 7, 2015, 10:48 PM

55. Unrec

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Fri May 8, 2015, 04:20 AM

74. America - the land where people NEED to draw Mohammed...

' let's millions of us post a caricature on their front lawn or Facebook page'


I've gone one better than that! One of my friends is heading off to the US for a holiday next week and she doesn't want to look like a tourist. I gave her these handy tips...

1. Don't speak. Ever. The accent will give you away.
2. They NEED to draw Mohammed in America. I don't know why, but it's something they just need to do. It's some weird cultural thing, I think. So when someone says hi, just draw them a quick sketch of Mohammed, hand it to them with a knowing smile and walk off. They'll think yr a local coz that's what Americans do when greeting each other.
3. If a local persists in trying to get you to talk and give yr tourist status away, just whip up a cartoon of Mohammed having sex with Pamela Geller, and in a fake French accent say '#JeSuisPamelaGeller'. And then when the cops turn up to put a stop to yr impromtu x-rated Mohammed and Pammy exhibition because of obscenity something something, start yelling in a fake American accent 'FREEDOM OF SPEECH! IT'S ONE OF THOSE AMENDMENT THINGS!'
4. Send me a postcard.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #74)

Fri May 8, 2015, 06:21 AM

85. Do not make a post like this ever again

 

Your post is insulting and hurtful to millions of Americans. Many Americans are extremely passionate about their patriotism. While of course you have the right to mock Americans if you want to, there is no reason to incite them with such an unnecessarily provocative and mean-spirited post. Do not do it again.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #85)

Fri May 8, 2015, 06:30 AM

87. I'd make it my sig line, but it maxxed out the word limit n/t

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Response to oberliner (Reply #85)

Fri May 8, 2015, 08:05 PM

117. Or what?

 

You've issued an ultimatum. What's the consequence of breaking your prohibition on speech. I'm aware that the First Amendment only protects us from the government curtailing our speech. We have no such protections from you. So, what are we in for, oberliner?

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #117)

Fri May 8, 2015, 08:19 PM

119. Extremist Americans have been known to do some crazy things

 

Why incite them with such hurtful and insulting remarks? Nothing can be gained by doing so. It is needlessly provocative.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #119)

Fri May 8, 2015, 08:21 PM

120. From your post, it seems like you were the person who felt incited.

 

That's why I was asking about the consequence of ignoring your directive.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #120)

Sat May 9, 2015, 12:15 AM

185. Yeah, I'm interested in being filled in on these consequences...

I'm putting my plans on writing 'Violet's Guide To Weird US Customs For Tourists' on hold until I find out how scary these consequences may be!

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #185)

Sat May 9, 2015, 12:27 PM

222. The people who want to prevent speech they don't like scare me more

 

...than the disgusting practitioners of hateful speech. The First Amendment would be a real breeze if it only applied to speech that most agreed with. When it comes down to it, some on DU don't support free speech, which is disappointing but completely unsurprising.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #117)

Sat May 9, 2015, 09:31 AM

209. The poster IMO was trying to make the point

We had some issues about the BBC not showing the Mohamed cartoons by way of being culturally sensitive. In Oz they don't publish photos of deceased Aboriginals for the same reason.

So that kind of embodies the point. If that's offensive to Americans, it is culturally insensitive too.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #74)

Fri May 8, 2015, 06:33 AM

88. I'm a failure as an American.

 

I've never drawn Mohammed, ever.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #88)

Fri May 8, 2015, 08:12 AM

89. Ever made fun of George W Bush?

 

Every written anything that might be seen as insulting towards some Republicans?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #89)

Fri May 8, 2015, 08:24 AM

90. Yeah, but it's just not the same.

 

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Response to oberliner (Reply #89)

Fri May 8, 2015, 08:29 AM

91. All the time. What's that got to do with insulting minority groups? n/t

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #91)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:07 PM

127. I find your attitude insulting to muslims

 

Muslims are not a homogeneous group. Like in any human group (Christians, Russians, whatever), you have fundamentalists (Falwell, Putin, whatever) and you have the great mass of the decent folks.

Muslim fundamentalists want to put a stop by force to any mockery of their religion. Mockery is thereful the appropriate, peaceful way to force a debate to help the great mass of good folks who happen to be muslim to bear on the mad radicals.

Your posture is an insult to all the great majority of muslims which lives under the boot of the fundamentalists.






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Response to Yorktown (Reply #127)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:40 PM

146. American Muslims would be offended that I see them as a minority group?

And yr taking offense on their behalf? I'm curious. Who designated you to decide what does and doesn't offend American Muslims? Because I'm finding it a bit strange that you don't seem the slightest bit interested in what actual Muslims say they find offensive...

The only fundamentalists US Muslims have to fear are the RW Christians...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #146)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:54 PM

152. You live in dreamland

 

This sentence is remarkably misinformed:
The only fundamentalists US Muslims have to fear are the RW Christians...


Right.

So, decent muslim parents in the US do not have to fear the internet propaganda which is aimed at radicalizing their children? Decent muslims in the US do not have to fear the us against them fundamentalist muslims are trying to bring about?

ISIS and other radical groups who masterminded attacks like Charlie Hebdo have explicitly stated one of their goals is to radicalize muslim youths in western countries by provoking a backlash the youth would rebel against.

Where are the RW Christians trying to deliberately stoke a worldwide religion war?

You are are not in touch with reality, just some kind of mushy ideology where you want to always come out as the good person in defense of the poor underdog of your choosing. Patronizing them, defending immobilism of their faith.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #152)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:21 PM

160. Yr not doing too well on the answering questions thing...

Want to go back and give it a try?

And I noticed that yr very keen to try to move the discussion away from events in the US to globally. My comment was about US Muslims and the situation in the US. Try to focus on that. So, are you honestly going to try to claim that US Muslims have nothing to fear from RW Christian fundies in the US? Because if you do, I'm grabbing some popcorn and a ringside seat...

That underdog = minority group thing? Us Aussies always go for the underdog. It sucks, but that's how we are. So when it comes to Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists, Hindus, LGBT, African Americans etc, I kind of have this thing where I think people who go out of their way to intentionally insult and offend them because they're a member of that minority group are fucking wankers. And with this freedom of speech thing, I'm even willing to say that I think they're wankers...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #160)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:35 PM

165. Right. Perfect. Protect me then. I'm in the Moloch believing minority.

 

We believers in the great Moloch Baal are of the belief that we should burn young infants alive in a huge metal statue of our god, Moloch, peace be upon him.

But we are ostracized by many. Including Christian right wing groups who object to our practice. Please, advocate for us, molochbaalists, we are oppresed. We are the underdog.

PS: our religion also demands respect and forcible enforcement of our beliefs. Please also come to my defense if I ever was to shoot someone mocking my god or my practices.

Deal?

PS: this is also an answer to your insidious injection of RW groups in the debate. The attitude of RW groups is an independent question to a frontal opposition to a religious dictum that said religion should not be mocked. Further, I suspect said attitude of said R groups might also be motivated by ethnicity, not religion, further confusing the issue.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #165)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:49 PM

171. You do like trying to dictate what people can and can't discuss...

First it's don't talk about Pamela Geller. Now it's don't talk about RW Christian extremists. Well fuck that. I'm talking about them.

And still no answer to the question I asked you. I'll add don't ask questions to the long list of things you don't want us to do....

I've got no idea what a Moloch is or why yr trying to equate it to Muslims, Jews, LGBT and other minority groups in the US.

Here's another question. Does yr NEED to 'mock' members of a minority group extend beyond Muslims? See, I'm not really getting what you think is achieved by that...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #171)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:54 PM

175. I just try to stay on topic

 

You seem to nurse pet subjects: all minorities apparently are oppressed and in need of your support, some undefined RW groups seem to always be lurking in the shadows and you seem to have a fetsih for Pamela Geller.

The topic is the need to assert free speech, even mockery vs religions which claim it infringes their beliefs.
You say we shouldn't because that religion is held by a minority.
I show you the weakness of your point when I say I am the Moloch believing minority.

I apologize for trying to bring you back to the topic and away from your pet but unrelated hobbies.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #175)

Sat May 9, 2015, 12:07 AM

180. No, you don't. Yr all over the shop...

1. I don't recall saying all minorities are oppressed and in need of my support, and I certainly don't believe that.
2. What do you mean 'some undefined RW groups'? I said RW Christian fundies are something US Muslims would be in fear of. You appear to have problems with that observation. Why?
3. I don't have a fetish for Pam Geller. You may have noticed that she's a big part of the topic yr insisting we all stick to. I detest bigots and she's a hate-mongering bigot. I'm not sure why yr telling people to forget about her and her role in what happened and what she is.
4. Where did I say you shouldn't 'mock' minorities? You can do it all you want, but the beauty of the free speech thing is people have every right to tell you that they think yr mocking is pretty lame and amateur...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #180)

Sat May 9, 2015, 12:14 AM

184. Again, you're dancing against the totem pole

 

1- the subtext of your posts is that RW Christians have the upper hand on minority groups
2- I do not fear your affirmation about RW Christians, it is off topic, therefore a distraction
3- I told people my inital title was misleading and I changed it. Can't do more. Topic of freedom to mock.
4- Where did you say you shouldn't 'mock' minorities? it's the title of one of your posts (insults minorities)

Point 4 tells me you're deliberately dishonest.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #184)

Sat May 9, 2015, 12:55 AM

188. Sorry, wrong on all counts...

4. Let's go from point 4 back. I'm not dishonest so try and leave the insults out of it. Seeing this is the only post with the word 'insult minorities' in it, I assume yr talking about this one where I didn't say anywhere in it that you can't 'mock' minorities...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6640849

I won't hold my breath waiting for an apology...

3. Don't you worry. I'm living and breathing the 'freedom to mock' topic in this thread.

2. Nope. Just because you don't want to talk about the danger of RW Christian fundys in the US doesn't make it off topic. It just makes it a subject you don't want to talk about for some strange reason. They're a real danger to freedom of expression, so I don't know why anyone who wants to talk about free speech wouldn't want to talk about them.

1. Yes, that's correct. RW Christian fundys do have the upper hand on minority groups in the US. This is a statement that everyone at DU should easily agree with.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #188)

Sat May 9, 2015, 01:19 AM

189. Nope, I'm dead on target

 

4- I love the dishonesty with which you suggest I started 'insulting' you. Especially from someone who started accusing me of mocking people (I did not), and used the words 'lame and amateur' to qualify that imaginary crime. I did say, and confirm here, you are intellectually dishonest. You wrote "I don't recall saying all minorities are oppressed" after having written a post about mockery "insults minorities". Are you saying insult isn't a form of oppression?

1- Anyway, your denial becomes funnier in regard of what you answer to point 1 where you reaffirm "RW Christian fundys do have the upper hand on minority groups in the US". Isn't "having a upper hand" a form of oppression? Besides, your statement is also misinformed: fundamentalist groups are among the low income groups, not wielding economic clout over other minorities. Hindus, Jews, Orthodoxs and Buddhists all are more affluent than Mainstream Protestants and far more wealthy than Evangelical Christians.

Your initial (2) statement was off topic and so unspecific as to become meaningless. EVERYONE would have a reason to be "in a fear of" some undefined "RW Christian fundies". I'm pretty sure that among the cloud of "RW Christian fundies" there must be some crazy ones. I suspect their attitude towards Hindus or Jews might be unamicable. What all this has to do with cartoons is rather mysterious.

And that point (2) is a good example of why (3) you are all over the place and beyond.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #189)

Sat May 9, 2015, 01:47 AM

191. Maybe off in that dreamland place you spoke of, but not here...

You falsely accused me of being dishonest and claimed incorrectly that I'd said people shouldn't 'mock' minorities and then called me dishonest when I pointed out correctly that I hadn't said that at all. Here's the link again to what I did say http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6640849

Like I said before, I won't wait for an apology.

Okay, I never thought I'd see someone at DU arguing that the RW fundies don't have the upper hand when it comes to minority groups. The Religious Right is very powerful in the US in case you haven't noticed. I'm not sure why yr even trying to argue about such an obvious thing as this. Sorry, but did I miss where minority groups that tend to be targets for hate have power and representation in the highest levels of politics over there? Because the Religious Right does have that power and representation...

I'll be crystal clear about what American Muslims have to fear from the RW Christian fundy types. Things like 'protests' (maybe you'd call them mocking) where they scream abuse at Muslim children singing the US national anthem, things like a politician in a US state having an open day and demanding that any Muslims who visited her office must swear an oath of allegiance to the US on an Israeli flag, things like the Religious Right having a shitload of influence on the Republicans. And their rage is aimed at Muslims, not Jews nor Hindus. I think the groups they don't like would be LGBT and African Americans.

Here's an article about the Religious Right and their Islamophobia.

Coalition of fear: Tea Party, the religious right, and Islamophobia

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #191)

Sat May 9, 2015, 02:03 AM

193. You are in denial or deluded

 

You claim that I
claimed incorrectly that I'd said people shouldn't 'mock' minorities

It's exactly what your post here was doing
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6640849

Unless that post was saying we all should mock minorities?
Or unless you want to play on the words insult and mock?

But anyway, I never even suggested anyone should mock minorities. I'd never mock a minority myself. But I request the right to mock ideologies I feel strongly against.

Now, as for RW fundies having the upper hand on all minority groups, that's obviously NOT the case. The religious Right might have political clout, but so does the Jewish minority. Show me the Religious Right is oppressing the Buddhist minority. If it's difficult, try the Sikh or the Orthodox minorities. Religious minorities as a whole are not oppressed by the Religious Right, and that's a fact. And all the educated muslims who fled the Iranian revolution did not meet remarkable problems of integration to the best of my knowledge.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #193)

Sat May 9, 2015, 02:12 AM

194. No I'm not. That post did NOT say you shouldn't 'mock' minorities...

It didn't even say you shouldn't insult minorities. I don't know how yr managing to read that into a post that said something else...

This really isn't rocket science. The religious right does have a lot of political power in the US and it's blatantly obvious they have a lot of hatred towards American Muslims. I gave you some examples and a link to an article to read. Yr the one who brings up the word oppressed all the time, not me. I'll use the words hatred and discrimination because they're far more accurate. Do you really think Republicans and the religious right give a shit whether a Muslim is an educated Iranian who fled the revolution or not? They hate Muslims. They even hate some of those Muslims who travel round talking about how evil Muslims are, but they'll use them anyway...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #194)

Sat May 9, 2015, 02:18 AM

195. Do tell me what you think your post was saying

 

Because it becomes apparent your words do not convey your meaning.

As to what RW groups might believe or not, you appear to believe you know that to a T, so I'll pass on a discussion that's going nowhere. Apparently, minorities is your code word for muslims since it's the only of my points you answer to. And you appear to know better than me how Iranians were welcomed in the US fater the Khomeini revolution. So be it.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #195)

Sat May 9, 2015, 02:25 AM

196. Click on it. Then click on the link to the post I was replying to...

It should dawn on you that I didn't say anywhere that you shouldn't 'mock' minorities.

Okay, I'm finding yr attitude about talking about RW religious groups and their hatred of Muslims and of freedom of speech to be just a bit bizarre on a left wing forum like DU...

As for educated Iranians, it doesn't matter who knows more. The fact is that the Religious Right hates Muslims. If yr struggling with this, use Jews and anti-semites as an example. Anti-semites hate Jews. But my bet is they'd also be able to dredge up some Jews they can admit to liking in some bizarre attempt to make out they don't hate Jews. It works the same way for the Religious Right and Muslims and anyone who claims there's not hatred aimed at Muslims from the Religious Right is having a bit of a vacation in fantasy land...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #196)

Sat May 9, 2015, 02:31 AM

197. Crikey, you sure love going in circles. And you wrote a gem.

 

1- Just explain what your post I linked you to is saying.
2- YOU brought RW religious groups to the discussion. Now you tell me my attitude is bizarre to answer your points?
3- I love your sentence: "as for {insert name here}, it doesn't matter who knows more."
Obviously, it seems your methodology. You don't care who knows what, you go according to your presuppositions.

That's over and out for me.

"it doesn't matter who knows more."

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #197)

Sat May 9, 2015, 03:02 AM

198. Fair lick of the lino, cobber!

1. In response to someone who'd settled in with a few posts telling us we were disrespecting Republicans if we insulted them, I replied by asking what that had to do with insulting minority groups. There's nothing in there saying if anyone should or shouldn't...

2. I didn't realise there was some in-thread rule where we must only talk about the religious loonies that you agree to discussing. You said in a post in a thread that's about freedom of speech in America, 'Your posture is an insult to all the great majority of muslims which lives under the boot of the fundamentalists.' I quite correctly pointed out that the only fundies that American Muslims have to worry about living under the boot of is the Religious Right and through them the Republicans.

3. Yeah, strangely enough when talking about Islamophobia, I really don't care who knows more about Iranians who migrated to the US after the Revolution. Especially when they're used as some sort of excuse for why the Religious Right don't hate Muslims. And that's because Islamophobia didn't really exist in the US until after 9/11.

Here's an overview of Islamophobia in the US for you to read:

Anti-Muslim hate groups are a relatively new phenomenon in the United States, most of them appearing in the aftermath of the World Trade Center terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. Earlier anti-Muslim groups tended to be religious in orientation and disputed Islam’s status as a respectable religion.

All anti-Muslim hate groups exhibit extreme hostility toward Muslims. The organizations portray those who worship Islam as fundamentally alien and attribute to its followers an inherent set of negative traits. Muslims are depicted as irrational, intolerant and violent, and their faith is frequently depicted as sanctioning pedophilia, marital rape and child marriage.

These groups also typically hold conspiratorial views regarding the inherent danger to America posed by its Muslim-American community. Muslims are depicted as a fifth column intent on undermining and eventually replacing American democracy and Western civilization with Islamic despotism. Anti-Muslim hate groups allege that Muslims are trying to subvert the rule of law by imposing on Americans their own Islamic legal system, Shariah law.

Anti-Muslim hate groups also broadly defame Islam, which they tend to treat as a monolithic and evil religion. These groups generally hold that Islam has no values in common with other cultures, is inferior to the West and is a violent political ideology rather than a religion.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/ideology/anti-muslim


Yr over and out? I forgot to remind you over half an hour ago that while it's getting close to Beer o'clock here, it's Draw A Mohammed o'clock over there. If you rush you can still make it!

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #91)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:12 PM

128. 1.6 billion people is NOT a minority group.

There are more Muslims than there are Americans. How does that make them a downtrodden minority?

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Response to Binkie The Clown (Reply #128)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:36 PM

143. They are a minority group in the US....

And yr the one who brought up the word 'downtrodden', not me.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #143)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:39 PM

145. So, as an atheist, I truly AM a minorty, so

you will support me if I threaten violence against believers? Or will you mock me, even though I'm a minority?

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Response to Binkie The Clown (Reply #145)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:46 PM

148. Do you have a tendency to ask really bizarre and random questions?

I sense you really don't like the fact that American Muslims are a minority group just like Jews, Buddhists, Sikhs and Hindus...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #148)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:03 PM

154. Is being a minority a free pass? will you protect Moloch?

 

Let's say I am in the minority of the idolaters of Moloch Baal.

Would it be culturally sensitive of you to let me burn infants alive as offerings to my god?

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #154)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:09 PM

155. A free pass from what exactly?

Discrimination and hate?

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #155)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:46 PM

170. Why are you discriminating against Moloch?

 

I see you refuse to support my religious minority.

Why is that so?

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #170)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:50 PM

173. I'll try asking again. What do you think people are getting a 'free pass' from?

Discrimination and hate?

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #173)

Sat May 9, 2015, 01:38 AM

190. Making death threats against people not bound by their laws.

Making death threats is not O.K., and I don't care if you think being Muslim makes death threats O.K. I will go right on criticizing death threats and those who make death threats and those who support and encourage those who make death threats and those who profess to believe the same things as those who make death threats. And those that kill in the name of their beliefs and those that support those that kill in the name of their beliefs, and those that claim to believe the same things as those that kill for their beliefs, and those who quote "words of peace" from the very book that tells them to kill for their beliefs. And that is my right under the Constitution of the United States.

And, yes, most Muslims are peaceful (while reading daily from the book that tells them to kill the infidel. Go figure the cognitive dissonance of that one out). But the minority, the 320 million that support terrorism, they are a force to be reckoned with.

Apparently my rights to speech are secondary to their rights to make death threats, and if that isn't a free pass, I don't know what is.

You seem to be advocating appeasement of homicidal fanatics. Give them what they want so they won't butcher us. Well, we saw how well appeasement worked on Hitler, didn't we. Go ahead, appease away. And when they come to chop your head off, be sure to tell them how much you support their right to do so.

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Response to Binkie The Clown (Reply #190)

Sat May 9, 2015, 01:49 AM

192. Yr confusing me with someone else. I never said making death threats was okay...

And how am I appeasing homicidal fanatics?

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Fri May 8, 2015, 06:17 AM

84. Religion doesn't deserve any extra respect or special rules.

It doesn't matter which one - religion should be a personal belief. The "don't draw Mohammed" rule is a rule that some Muslims follow. Fine - then don't draw him yourself. Don't expect people who don't believe in that rule to follow it to because you demand it.

Some Christians demand that everyone convert, and that homosexuality should be banned. Are those rational demands either?

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Fri May 8, 2015, 08:31 AM

92. Damn! So many people have taken you to task here.

Nothing to add.



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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Fri May 8, 2015, 05:24 PM

99. There is no "need" to post such images.

Someone who posts such images will likely be protected under freedom of speech and expression, but no one "needs" to offend or blaspheme.

Personally, I don't see the point in it. Getting people angry and upset just seems gratuitous and unproductive. I will make my opinions and beliefs known, but I'm not one to go out of my way to offend someone who doesn't see things the way I do.

So sure, they might be protected. But they aren't necessarily performing some great public service, either.

Oh, and fuck Pam Geller.

This is the DU member formerly known as Tommy_Carcetti.

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Fri May 8, 2015, 06:00 PM

104. TWO incorrect words: "need" AND "blasphemous." There is no "need," and "blasphemous" is relative.

 

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Fri May 8, 2015, 06:30 PM

107. What a marvelous idea!!

So by mocking a religion, that mockery will lead to greater dialogue and understanding? Please!

This issue, most especially as it relates to the Pamela Geller inspired/incited crime in Texas, has nothing to do with free speech, and everything to do with incitement. And incitement is NOT protected speech. Case law is quite clear on that. Google Brandenberg v. Ohio, 395 US 444 (1969) for a short lesson in non-protected speech.

So the premise of your post is faulty. If you were talking about protected speech, which does enjoy First Amendment protection, I would agree that protected speech is lawful speech.

As to Islam and blasphemy, no reputable Muslim cleric is calling for religious law to replace the Constitution. Unless you are a Fox watcher living in Oklahoma you should be aware of that. I feel your post is thinly disguised Islam hate.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #107)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:18 PM

133. What Geller did is no different than what Westboro Baptists and the KKK do.

If you can point out what she did that "incited" others to violence and explain why it's different than what any other hate group does you'll have a point.

Until then you're just a poster child for religious privilege.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #133)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:32 PM

138. she provoked, knowing well that violence might happen.

The cartoon contest idea incited violence in Denmark and France. Geller knows this.

Or are you saying that Geller is simply a big fan of political cartoons?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #138)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:36 PM

142. How is her provocation any different?

Why is her brand of hate worse than the religious kind?

Or are you saying that Westboro Baptists are simply fans of god?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #138)

Sat May 9, 2015, 12:20 AM

187. So radicals threatening violence win

 

If you know I will be violent against you if you say "X", you will refrain to say "X", is that it.

Looks like it gives me a right to call the shots on public discourse if I'm ready to shoot.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #138)

Sat May 9, 2015, 03:52 PM

231. In a free society, the problem is not Geller but those who will respond with violence.

It must be so.

If you can't draw a cartoon of Muhammed, you will shortly be unable to argue that Muhammed was wrong when he said that the penalty for adultery should be death.

Geller may not be a very admirable figure, but her demonstration that this is not a trivial issue in our society stands.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #107)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:28 PM

135. Mockery will force reform. Your attitude is patronizing of muslims.

 

The vast majority of muslims are normal, decent people. Like Germans in 1933 or Russians in 1950.
But like Germans in 1933 or Russians in 1950, the vast majority of people who live in countries where being muslim is a de facto duty live under the jackboot of their literalist clerics who have no incentive to reform the doctrine towards kumbaya religion, like Christanity was FORCED to do.

Those literalists, fundamentalists want to enforce a worldwide ban on mockery of their religion. From there on, the questions are relatively simple: First, do people in democracies give in to these violent demands? Second, and more important, should we stop publishing mockeries of Islam? As stated in the OP, I think the vast, decent majority NEEDS us to post this satire. Because when it becomes evident the fundamentalist dogma that blasphemy is physically punishable, the silent muslim majority will have a stepping stone to tell the fundamentalists to stop waging violence over their radicall reading of the 'sacred' texts.

On your side note, the following sentence was meant to be insulting
I feel your post is thinly disguised Islam hate.

I think I respect muslims as human beings more than you do.
And I will concede I have the utmost contempt for the doctrine of Islam. But I know it fairly well.
I have reason to believe you do not.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #135)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:50 PM

149. calling names leads to dialogue?

I am truly unsure if you are at all serious in your post. But you did say:
"I think I respect muslims as human beings more than you do.
And I will concede I have the utmost contempt for the doctrine of Islam. But I know it fairly well.
I have reason to believe you do not."

Muslims are the followers of Islam. If they did not they would not be Muslims. So you claim to respect Muslims even as you hold their religious beliefs in the utmost contempt? I do not know how to respond to such a bizarre sequence of statements.

As to your claim of superior knowledge, you are entitled to your opinion.

Finally, when you wrote:
"The vast majority of muslims are normal, decent people. Like Germans in 1933 or Russians in 1950.
But like Germans in 1933 or Russians in 1950, the vast majority of people who live in countries where being muslim is a de facto duty live under the jackboot of their literalist clerics who have no incentive to reform the doctrine towards kumbaya religion, like Christanity was FORCED to do."

"under the jackboot of their literalist critics" ???? Sounds like a Tea Party horror story. Perhaps you are at the wrong site.


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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Fri May 8, 2015, 06:50 PM

109. And you are perfectly within your rights...

... to poke a beehive with a stick. Just don't expect a whole bunch of sympathy when you are covered with stings.

People doing stupid shit have bad things happen to them. Even when "I'm a Murican an I gotta right to do it."

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #109)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:45 PM

147. Riiiiight. And Voltaire was a stupid man.

 

Here is what he wrote of Christianity:
"[Christianity] is assuredly the most ridiculous, the most absurd and the most bloody religion which has ever infected this world. Your Majesty will do the human race an eternal service by extirpating this infamous superstition (..)... My one regret in dying is that I cannot aid you in this noble enterprise, the finest and most respectable which the human mind can point out.."


Now, let's say I write an editorial in a newspaper of your choice in the continental US:

Islam is assuredly the most ridiculous, the most absurd and the most bloody religion which has ever infected this world. The public will do the human race an eternal service by extirpating this infamous superstition. My one regret in dying is that I cannot aid you in this noble enterprise, the finest and most respectable which the human mind can point out..

Guess what?

Folks like you will shout at the top of their lungs "RACISM".

CAIR and half a dozen organizations will attack me in court.

And, from what I read here, quite a few folks will applaud attacks on me for being hateful and culturally insensitive.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #147)

Sat May 9, 2015, 07:22 AM

199. News flash pal.

I'm an atheist.

And you most definitely sound exactly like a hater.

Go right ahead and smack that beehive and enjoy the results.

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Fri May 8, 2015, 07:12 PM

112. How about voluntarily not mocking others' beliefs because you aren't an asshole?

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Response to 6000eliot (Reply #112)

Fri May 8, 2015, 08:09 PM

118. How about recognizing there are sick fucks using religious texts to abuse women and minorities?

 

Fuck the beliefs that champion such acts. And FUCK the people that turn a blind eye to the abuse.

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Response to 6000eliot (Reply #112)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:14 PM

130. Beliefs are either right or wrong

 

If they are wrong, mockery is a non violent way to bring people to reconsider.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #130)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:51 PM

151. Keep telling yourself that the actions of the Yahoos in Texas was non-violent in intent.

That won't make it true, though.

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Fri May 8, 2015, 08:00 PM

115. I still support the First Amendment. I support it for Nazis, and for Pamela Gellar.

 

People don't need protections for popular speech. They need protections for unpopular speech.

Fuck Nazis and Pam Gellar, but don't try to prevent their speech.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #115)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:15 PM

131. I stand with the ACLU.

I don't need to agree with Geller to support the 1st Amendment.

Free Speech

Over the years, the ACLU has frequently represented or defended individuals engaged in some truly offensive speech. We have defended the speech rights of communists, Nazis, Ku Klux Klan members, accused terrorists, pornographers, anti-LGBT activists, and flag burners. That’s because the defense of freedom of speech is most necessary when the message is one most people find repulsive. Constitutional rights must apply to even the most unpopular groups if they’re going to be preserved for everyone.


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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:03 PM

126. The replies to this thread show clearly that some people

simply can't handle the truth when it offends their preconceived notions of joining hands and singing cumbaya as a way to get fanatics to stop killing non-Muslims for violating laws that only apply to Muslims.

One poll says that 15% to 20% of Muslims worldwide support what the terrorists are doing. Given 1.6 billion Muslims, that's up to 320 million supporters of terrorism. The U.S. population is 300 million, roughly. So while the majority of Muslims are peace-loving, the minority, a mere 320 million of them, are not. 320 million people who consider it their duty to kill all 300 million Americans is a force to be taken seriously. The fanatics DO, after all, outnumber us. Go ahead and defend us with cumbaya's, or get realistic.

And that doesn't even take into account the millions of Christians who want to destroy our public school system by forcing the teaching of "Biblical truths" instead of science. Make no mistake about it. Religious fanatics, be they Muslims or Christians are a serious danger to our country and our freedoms. It may not be politically correct to confront this reality and call out their bullshit, but for heaven's sake let's not make the mistake the Republicans make by ignoring reality in favor of our cherished ideology.

Get the hell out of la-la land and come back to reality.

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Response to Binkie The Clown (Reply #126)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:17 PM

132. Amen, brother

 

I especially liked that sentence:
some people simply can't handle the truth when it offends their preconceived notions of joining hands and singing cumbaya as a way to get fanatics to stop killing non-Muslims for violating laws that only apply to Muslims.


Kumbaya won't work. Mockery is a non violent way to push for change.

The mockers are not violent, people who shoot on them are. Period.

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Response to Binkie The Clown (Reply #126)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:25 PM

134. Man the parapets!

Woman the missile launchers!

ISIS has a base in Texas! We are about to be overrun by MUSLIM HORDES!!!!



Or not....

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Response to okasha (Reply #134)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:31 PM

137. Are you mocking me?

See how easy it is to mock things you think are ridiculous?

Well, I think religion is ridiculous, so it is my right to mock it, just as it is your right to mock me (even though it made my cry like a baby to feel your scorn. )

But it's also my right to point out objective facts (not conspiracy theories) to anyone who cares about reality. I'll be happy to footnote my numbers. They are real, not fantasy.

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Response to Binkie The Clown (Reply #137)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:33 PM

140. Don't cry, Binkie.

 

I'll give you a cookie.

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Response to okasha (Reply #134)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:32 PM

139. NO! Hoist the white flag of cartooning

 

Cartoons are missiles. Cartoonists are haters. Muslims are too infantile to make their religion evolve.

Christianity was FORCED to abandon lots of violent behaviors, including repressing blasphemy.

But Islam is different. Just be culturally sensitive to Hamas, and they will sing Kumbaya to the Jews.

If only the cartoonists were jailed.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #139)

Fri May 8, 2015, 10:37 PM

144. Pick one: I will not mock Mohammed because...


A) I respect him, his beliefs, and his followers. (i.e. killing people who disagree is alright with me)

B) I acknowledge that a significant percentage of his followers are violent and may kill me if I do.

(reposted in a slightly different form from another forum)

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Response to Binkie The Clown (Reply #126)

Sat May 9, 2015, 09:34 AM

211. How is drawing Mohamed fighting this danger?

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Response to treestar (Reply #211)

Sat May 9, 2015, 11:04 AM

216. How is cowering and saying, "yes sir, Mr. Terrorist. We'll do whatever you say"

"Just please don't chop off our heads" helping the situation?

Drawing Mohammed is standing up to and resisting unacceptable coercion.

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Response to Binkie The Clown (Reply #216)

Sat May 9, 2015, 11:56 AM

219. BTW I always wanted to ask people

about the Kumbaya thing. Do you have a view of human nature that we must fight? I mean, would it be so bad if we could hold hands with some Muslims and sing Kumbaya? Why does that seem not like a laudable goal, if idealistic and distant.

And there are some Muslims we could bond with rather than offending them. And they could help us fight the extremists too.

i'm not saying do what Mr. TErrorist says, I'm only saying why does offending the other Muslims help fight terrorism?

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Response to treestar (Reply #219)

Sat May 9, 2015, 01:17 PM

224. "You may only be as peaceful as your neighbor allows you to be."

--Ancient Chinese Proverb

It is necessary to fight when fighting is called for, such as when Genghis Khan is storming your city in the Dark Ages, or when creationists are trying to get science thrown out of our schools.

Hold hands with Genghis Khan and you'll pull back a bloody stump.
Sing Kumbaya with fundamentalist creationists and you will be laughed at by them, as they proceed to tear down our educational institutions in spite of your singing. This is the real world, not The Good Ship Lollypop.

Part of the image problem we Democrats have is that we are perceived by our enemies (and yes, we have political enemies) as soft, mushy-headed, Kumbaya-singing pushovers. That's one reason why the Republicans win elections. We are seen as coddling terrorists and bending over on demand.

If the liberal and moderate Muslims want our help in fixing their image problem, let them make some move in that direction. I don't see any such large-scale movements from that quarter. I see them also appeasing the terrorists. So that seems to be the signal for some Democrats to come running to rescue the poor, downtrodden 1.6 billion Muslims who obviously, according to some liberals, are not competent to fix their own image problem, so they need our benevolent help. That, by the way, is racist. The white man's burden all over again. (Google "white man's burden" if your are not a student of history or poetry.)

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:53 PM

174. Imagine all the popular culture horror movies with pentagrams and covens....

It would be silly for me to go into a homicidal rage every time a book or movie or video game came out with symbols of religion depicting evil.

My getting upset and offended does not do anything to change people's views on my religion. What does change their minds is politeness, love and patience with explanations of what we are not and what we are.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #174)

Fri May 8, 2015, 11:56 PM

176. What do you believe in?

 

And why don't you believe in homicidal rage in defense of your beliefs?

Maybe you shouldn't hesitate.

I have a sense some would defend your right to shoot as your belief might be a minority one.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #176)

Sat May 9, 2015, 12:13 AM

183. I believe in not harming others if they offend me :)

Geller is an asshole. The guys who used guns and violence are bigger assholes.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #183)

Sat May 9, 2015, 12:16 AM

186. You believe in not harming others if they offend you?? Shame on you.

 

Your beliefs are not deeply held.

Beautifully strong beliefs warrant violence.

Not understanding that is to be culturally insensitive.

(I'm trying to learn my lesson )

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Sat May 9, 2015, 07:23 AM

200. I don't always blaspheme, but when I do...

The omnipotent deity specified in the act should have the common decency to deal with it in person, and not by dispatching a bunch of his drooling adherents.

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Response to Yorktown (Original post)

Sat May 9, 2015, 03:44 PM

228. WELL SAID: "Mrs Geller is the nasty knight of a just cause."

We cannot allow laws against blasphemy under any guise for any reason. It is the end of everything if we do. We will shortly become a theocracy ruled by the worst among us.

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