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Wed May 6, 2015, 12:40 PM

 

Bernie Sanders, Gun Nut

Sanders, an economic populist and middle-class pugilist, doesn’t talk much about guns on the campaign trail. But his voting record paints the picture of a legislator who is both skeptical of gun control and invested in the interests of gun owners—and manufacturers. In 1993, then-Rep. Sanders voted against the Brady Act, which mandated federal background checks for gun purchasers and restricted felons’ access to firearms. As a senator, Sanders supported bills to allow firearms in checked bags on Amtrak trains and block funding to any foreign aid organization that registered or taxed Americans’ guns. Sanders is dubious that gun control could help prevent gun violence, telling one interviewer after Sandy Hook that “if you passed the strongest gun control legislation tomorrow, I don’t think it will have a profound effect on the tragedies we have seen."

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/05/bernie_sanders_on_guns_vermont_independent_voted_against_gun_control_for.html

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Reply Bernie Sanders, Gun Nut (Original post)
philosslayer May 2015 OP
notadmblnd May 2015 #1
arcane1 May 2015 #5
shenmue May 2015 #6
DrDan May 2015 #16
imnew May 2015 #111
shenmue May 2015 #112
imnew May 2015 #116
Lizzie Poppet May 2015 #38
NuclearDem May 2015 #41
notadmblnd May 2015 #42
DanTex May 2015 #60
AgingAmerican May 2015 #140
DanTex May 2015 #142
AgingAmerican May 2015 #143
shenmue May 2015 #2
Eleanors38 May 2015 #48
eloydude May 2015 #3
AtomicKitten May 2015 #10
JaneyVee May 2015 #11
KittyWampus May 2015 #47
DanTex May 2015 #62
AgingAmerican May 2015 #141
DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #4
zappaman May 2015 #49
NCTraveler May 2015 #7
KittyWampus May 2015 #50
NCTraveler May 2015 #77
NYC_SKP May 2015 #8
KittyWampus May 2015 #52
NYC_SKP May 2015 #67
beevul May 2015 #72
TheKentuckian May 2015 #139
AgingAmerican May 2015 #144
beevul May 2015 #150
jeff47 May 2015 #152
darkangel218 May 2015 #127
NightWatcher May 2015 #9
KittyWampus May 2015 #54
Comrade Grumpy May 2015 #64
JaneyVee May 2015 #12
NYC_SKP May 2015 #125
fredamae May 2015 #13
JaneyVee May 2015 #15
fredamae May 2015 #37
workinclasszero May 2015 #14
arcane1 May 2015 #18
workinclasszero May 2015 #19
arcane1 May 2015 #23
smokey nj May 2015 #26
arcane1 May 2015 #28
JaneyVee May 2015 #22
arcane1 May 2015 #24
smokey nj May 2015 #95
Art_from_Ark May 2015 #159
AgingAmerican May 2015 #145
KamaAina May 2015 #17
ileus May 2015 #20
Cali_Democrat May 2015 #45
Eleanors38 May 2015 #55
Cali_Democrat May 2015 #57
Eleanors38 May 2015 #73
ileus May 2015 #65
workinclasszero May 2015 #21
arcane1 May 2015 #25
Thinkingabout May 2015 #70
Ikonoklast May 2015 #102
arcane1 May 2015 #103
Scootaloo May 2015 #34
Erose999 May 2015 #63
99Forever May 2015 #27
arcane1 May 2015 #29
KittyWampus May 2015 #58
BainsBane May 2015 #79
workinclasszero May 2015 #106
99Forever May 2015 #120
BainsBane May 2015 #121
99Forever May 2015 #122
beevul May 2015 #128
BainsBane May 2015 #136
beevul May 2015 #149
NuclearDem May 2015 #86
workinclasszero May 2015 #108
frylock May 2015 #157
MADem May 2015 #30
Renew Deal May 2015 #46
MADem May 2015 #51
KittyWampus May 2015 #61
LondonReign2 May 2015 #69
KittyWampus May 2015 #96
MADem May 2015 #90
KittyWampus May 2015 #98
MADem May 2015 #105
workinclasszero May 2015 #31
arcane1 May 2015 #35
misterhighwasted May 2015 #36
Eleanors38 May 2015 #76
MineralMan May 2015 #87
Eleanors38 May 2015 #118
NYC_SKP May 2015 #129
Eleanors38 May 2015 #135
frylock May 2015 #158
VScott May 2015 #32
NuclearDem May 2015 #33
sarisataka May 2015 #93
ucrdem May 2015 #39
Avalux May 2015 #74
ucrdem May 2015 #107
seabeyond May 2015 #40
cyberswede May 2015 #66
seabeyond May 2015 #78
Renew Deal May 2015 #43
KittyWampus May 2015 #44
beevul May 2015 #75
MineralMan May 2015 #53
hack89 May 2015 #81
MineralMan May 2015 #83
hack89 May 2015 #84
MineralMan May 2015 #85
hack89 May 2015 #88
imnew May 2015 #113
LittleBlue May 2015 #56
pablo_marmol Jun 2015 #161
BainsBane May 2015 #59
Eleanors38 May 2015 #68
Eleanors38 May 2015 #71
ileus May 2015 #80
CharlotteVale May 2015 #82
DanTex May 2015 #92
CharlotteVale May 2015 #110
workinclasszero May 2015 #114
CharlotteVale May 2015 #119
Aerows May 2015 #89
Koinos May 2015 #99
Aerows May 2015 #115
Paladin May 2015 #123
beevul May 2015 #124
liberal_at_heart May 2015 #91
whatchamacallit May 2015 #94
Koinos May 2015 #97
hack89 May 2015 #101
Koinos May 2015 #109
hack89 May 2015 #117
Koinos May 2015 #126
hack89 May 2015 #151
Koinos May 2015 #154
TM99 May 2015 #153
Vinca May 2015 #100
Dyedinthewoolliberal May 2015 #104
Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2015 #130
Rex May 2015 #131
Trajan May 2015 #132
Maedhros May 2015 #133
CanadaexPat May 2015 #134
Puzzledtraveller May 2015 #137
GeorgeGist May 2015 #160
AgingAmerican May 2015 #138
Katashi_itto May 2015 #146
yuiyoshida May 2015 #147
Number23 May 2015 #148
sarisataka May 2015 #156
djean111 May 2015 #155

Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 12:42 PM

1. Explain please, how does that make him a gun nut?

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Response to notadmblnd (Reply #1)

Wed May 6, 2015, 12:43 PM

5. It doesn't. It just goes to show how desperate they are.

 

And obvious

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Response to notadmblnd (Reply #1)

Wed May 6, 2015, 12:44 PM

6. This:

Sanders is dubious that gun control could help prevent gun violence, telling one interviewer after Sandy Hook that “if you passed the strongest gun control legislation tomorrow, I don’t think it will have a profound effect on the tragedies we have seen."

If Sandy Hook didn't make him think that strong gun control is important, nothing will.

Lot of hunters up in Vermont. I bet he doesn't forget them very often.

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Response to shenmue (Reply #6)

Wed May 6, 2015, 12:55 PM

16. that comment is very disturbing

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Response to shenmue (Reply #6)


Response to imnew (Reply #111)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:33 PM

112. Ha



Nice try.

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Response to shenmue (Reply #112)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:42 PM

116. Please don't misunderstand me

 

I like Bernie very much but that statement he made is foolish

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Response to notadmblnd (Reply #1)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:40 PM

38. It doesn't. He's pretty solidly anti-gun.

 

No problem supporting him anyway...I'm too happy to have a genuinely liberal alternative.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #38)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:44 PM

41. He's a pretty mixed bag, actually.

 

Against high capacity magazines and against reducing waiting periods, but also against the Brady Bill, manufacturer liability, and banning guns on Amtrak.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #38)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:45 PM

42. I know, I wanted to hear the OP explain it.

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Response to notadmblnd (Reply #1)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:58 PM

60. Opposing the Brady Bill (background checks)? Shielding the gun manufacturers from lawsuits?

Are you serious?

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Response to DanTex (Reply #60)

Wed May 6, 2015, 07:21 PM

140. Rated F by the NRA, indicating a pro-gun control voting record

 

I would call his record, 'mixed'. Hardly a gun nut. He voted to extend the waiting period on background checks, by the way.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #140)

Wed May 6, 2015, 07:23 PM

142. The F rating doesn't mean much. The NRA pretty much gives an F to anyone who hasn't personally

shot up a school. The GOP thinks that Obama and Clinton are communists, pretty much just as meaningless.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #142)

Wed May 6, 2015, 07:25 PM

143. It means his record is useless to them

 

His record is mixed.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 12:43 PM

2. Against the Brady Act?

Hmm. Not good.

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Response to shenmue (Reply #2)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:51 PM

48. The Brady Act was to the GOP The gift that keeps on giving. nt

 

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 12:43 PM

3. F RATING BY NRA

 

Yeah, gun nut... my ass.

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Response to eloydude (Reply #3)

Wed May 6, 2015, 12:50 PM

10. OnTheIssues: Bernie Sanders on gun control.

 

<<excerpt>>

Rated F by the NRA, indicating a pro-gun control voting record.

Sanders scores F by NRA on pro-gun rights policies.

* The ratings are based on lifetime voting records on gun issues and the results of a questionnaire sent to all Congressional candidates; the NRA assigned a letter grade (with A+ being the highest and F being the lowest).

much more on his record here: http://www.ontheissues.org/domestic/Bernie_Sanders_Gun_Control.htm

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Response to eloydude (Reply #3)

Wed May 6, 2015, 12:51 PM

11. To believe the NRAs F rating is to believe...

 

The NRA is a sane organization.

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Response to eloydude (Reply #3)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:50 PM

47. F rating does NOT address his actual positions. Better to be honest and admit his constituency

 

Last edited Wed May 6, 2015, 02:57 PM - Edit history (1)

is largely rural and hunts.

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Response to eloydude (Reply #3)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:00 PM

62. That's like saying that Hillary is a socialist because the Koch Brothers hate her.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #62)

Wed May 6, 2015, 07:23 PM

141. No, it's based on a questionnaire he filled out

 

That Hillary mysteriously didn't participate in.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #4)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:51 PM

49. Sigh

My first crush...

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 12:47 PM

7. No one in American Politics can pass a progressive purity test.

 

No one. Sanders is an excellent Senator.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #7)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:51 PM

50. Very true. But I've been lambasted on DU time and again for being pragmatic.

 

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #50)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:13 PM

77. Being lambasted on du....

 

simply means you are a part of the majority. Most of us have been. You are not alone in that aspect.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 12:47 PM

8. Smart man, pro-Second Amendment, also pro-background checks and magazine limits.

 

There are only a handful of low-information folks on the left who would take issue with his votes on gun-control.

And, OBTW, he's awesome.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #8)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:54 PM

52. Not allowing gun manufacturers to be held legally liable is "low information"?

 

LOLZ

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #52)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:04 PM

67. Going after manufacturers for other than a faulty design is silly. We don't go after GM for wrecks.

 

And it's the same thing, a idiotic way to legislate.

The idiots and criminals who mishandle firearms need to be taken to task.

If there's a defect in the firearm design or manufacture, that's an entirely different matter.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #52)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:06 PM

72. Legally liable for what? N/T

 

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Response to beevul (Reply #72)

Wed May 6, 2015, 07:17 PM

139. For random anything causz gunz! It was a very stupid law.

Firearms are a legal product, the proposal is absurd and unprecedented.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #52)

Wed May 6, 2015, 07:26 PM

144. Legally liable for what?

 

Faulty gun designs that blow up in someones face, or an idiot doing something stupid with a gun?

I can see suing for the former, but not the latter.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #144)

Wed May 6, 2015, 07:55 PM

150. The law in question, that the really anti-gun folks and those who believe them are so upset about...

 

The law in question, that the really anti-gun folks and those who believe them are so upset about, does not protect the former, but does the latter.


When I see someone upset about this law, I see someone that either:

Doesn't understand what it does and why, and are upset based on a misunderstanding of what it does and why...


Or...


Who knows exactly what it does and why, and they are opposed to being blocked from such things. These folks don't much like admitting it, and are generally the ones that don't want to discuss the particulars of the law. They usually make it plain who they are.


In my experience, the latter outnumber the former, considerably. Which is a sad thing.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #52)

Wed May 6, 2015, 08:02 PM

152. Is Ford liable for drunk drivers in F150s? (nt)

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #8)

Wed May 6, 2015, 06:12 PM

127. +1

 

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 12:48 PM

9. He gets an F rating from the NRA

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Response to NightWatcher (Reply #9)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:56 PM

54. Which says nothing about his individual votes and his stance on specific issues.

 

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #54)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:03 PM

64. What does an F rating from the NRA say?

 

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 12:51 PM

12. GUN CONTROL UNDER THE BUS!

 

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #12)

Wed May 6, 2015, 05:53 PM

125. LOL!

 

OMG I'm dyin'!

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 12:53 PM

13. When all Guns are Outlawed

Only Outlaws will have Guns.
This is a complex issue and I for one will Not take any media's "written Opinion" as the Truth!

Lets ask Him exactly where he stands Before setting our collective hair on fire?!!??!

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Response to fredamae (Reply #13)

Wed May 6, 2015, 12:54 PM

15. NRA talking points to defend Bernie. Gawd.

 

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #15)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:29 PM

37. No...I'm simply

not a gun ban purist.
All I ask/suggest here, on this issue is that the Question/Concerns are asked directly to Bernie and that "we" Shut up and Listen before we exhaust ourselves jumping to conclusions.
This is my opinion for ALL "knee-jerk" issues that will be published about Every Dem candidate from Sanders (Guns), to Clinton (Emails), to O'Malley (Baltimore Policing) etc. Period.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 12:53 PM

14. Wow how...liberal???

 

Sanders, an economic populist and middle-class pugilist, doesn’t talk much about guns on the campaign trail. But his voting record paints the picture of a legislator who is both skeptical of gun control and invested in the interests of gun owners—and manufacturers.

Voted against the Brady act? Damn bet the NRA loved Bernie for that one!

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Response to workinclasszero (Reply #14)

Wed May 6, 2015, 12:55 PM

18. They love him so much, they gave him an "F"

 

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #18)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:02 PM

19. And what else did they give him for arming convicted felons with deadly weapons?

 

Last edited Wed May 6, 2015, 03:17 PM - Edit history (1)

And not requiring a simple background check before buying a deadly weapon?

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Response to workinclasszero (Reply #19)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:06 PM

23. It's the first issue I pretty much disagree with him on. But certainly not a deal-breaker.

 

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #23)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:10 PM

26. Not a deal breaker with me either. I'm not going to defend his position because I disagree with it,

but it certainly won't cost him my support either. On all the issues that matter the most to me, Bernie and I agree. Also, it's funny how Blue Dogs are allowed to represent their constituents, but Bernie is held to a different standard.

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Response to smokey nj (Reply #26)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:12 PM

28. Truth-tellers are always held to a different standard n/t

 

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #18)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:06 PM

22. And the Brady campaign gives VT an F and Bernie a C.

 

Who has more credibility in your book, NRA or Brady Campaign?

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #22)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:08 PM

24. Two sides who disagree with each other.

 

If I had to choose one, it would be the Brady group. But since I'm not a purist, I can accept disagreement.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #22)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:58 PM

95. So Bernie got a better score than the state he represents?

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Response to smokey nj (Reply #95)

Thu May 7, 2015, 03:58 AM

159. Vermont's been pro-gun ever since "The Riflemen of Bennington"

Why come ye hither, Redcoats,
Your minds what madness fills?
In our valleys there is danger,
And there's danger in our hills.
Oh hear ye not the singing
Of the bugle wild and free?
Full soon you'll hear the ringing
Of the rifle from the tree.

For the rifle (clap clap clap), for the rifle (clap clap clap)
In our hands will prove no trifle.

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Response to workinclasszero (Reply #14)

Wed May 6, 2015, 07:29 PM

145. What kind of politician

 

Would vote the way his constituents want him too? How dare he!

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 12:55 PM

17. Same deal as Howard Dean

 

Vermont is gun country. Outside Burlington, a moose could come charging onto your farm at any moment.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:03 PM

20. That's proof he's has progressive roots.

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Response to ileus (Reply #20)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:48 PM

45. How so?

 

I believe Bernie is a progressive, but on other issues.

How does his stance on this specific issue make him more progressive?

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #45)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:56 PM

55. Liberals are at their best when being liberal...

 

and that includes a liberal outlook on the Second Amendment.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #55)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:57 PM

57. The NRA gave him an 'F' rating

 

Your point?

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #57)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:08 PM

73. Hell, the NRA would give ME an 'F'.

 

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #45)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:04 PM

65. Most of our candidates and leaders aren't progressive on the 2A.

If Bernie is truly a Second Amendment rights supporter that makes him unique candidate, and progressive on at least one more issue than most.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:05 PM

21. I guess Bernie is not the progressive Saviour walking on water

 

that his fans made him out to be on DU, eh?

Feet of clay and all...

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Response to workinclasszero (Reply #21)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:09 PM

25. Once Hillary finally decides what her positions are, we can compare the two.

 

I wonder how long that will take

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #25)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:06 PM

70. I am happy to furnish you with a link to her stand on the issues.

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #25)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:11 PM

102. Before too long on the campaign trail, there will be a picture of Hillary holding a shotgun.

Bet all you have on it.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #102)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:15 PM

103. In blaze orange, I hope!

 

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Response to workinclasszero (Reply #21)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:22 PM

34. How many replies are you going to make, while ignoring the replies to your replies?

 

better get back to work, those billy goats are crossing bridges unmolested!

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Response to workinclasszero (Reply #21)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:01 PM

63. Luckily most progressives are not single issue voters, right?

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:12 PM

27. I smell neoliberal desperation in the air.

The implosion begins.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #27)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:13 PM

29. He's been running less than a week, and they're already this desperate n/t

 

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #27)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:57 PM

58. So you are incapable of providing a cogent Pro-Sanders response? I managed it.

 

It really isn't that difficult.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #27)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:14 PM

79. He voted to give gun manufacturers immunity from tort liability

that is all about protecting corporate interests. There is nothing neoliberal about opposing that, quite the opposite.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #79)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:20 PM

106. "He voted to give gun manufacturers immunity from tort liability"

 

Whoa WTF? How the hell do Bernie fans defend that???

Thats crap right there! What a joke Bernie!

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #79)

Wed May 6, 2015, 05:05 PM

120. I'm touched.

You're so very concerned I might be upset.

Bless your heart.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #120)

Wed May 6, 2015, 05:20 PM

121. How is it

You can never manage to discuss anything related to subject matter?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #121)

Wed May 6, 2015, 05:28 PM

122. I manage just fine.

But thanks again for your concern.

Bless your heart.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #79)

Wed May 6, 2015, 06:14 PM

128. Do you think product manufacturers should be sued for misuse of their products by third parties?

 

Do you think product manufacturers should be sued for misuse of their products by third parties?

That's what the immunity covers.

It appears based on a post below, that subject matter is something you feel important about. I trust you will continue that trend in any reply to me, assuming that appearance reflects truth.


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Response to beevul (Reply #128)

Wed May 6, 2015, 07:13 PM

136. I'm done with the gun propaganda

I've been through this crap with Gungeon folk far too many times. I learned the hard way exactly what this game is about. The article linked and countless others explain what the law does. There would be no need for a separate law requiring immunity from liability specific to gun manufacturers if it only covered what you all claim. Stump for the unfettered profits of gun manufacturers to someone else. I can't do anything about all the people killed to line the pockets of the merchants of death, but I do get to choose how I vote. That is one right the gun lobby hasn't yet stripped me of.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #136)

Wed May 6, 2015, 07:45 PM

149. All the sudden discussing the subject matter doesn't seem so important to you.

 

Certainly not as important as one might be led to believe from reading your snide comment which says "You can never manage to discuss anything related to subject matter?" to another poster.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026630123#post121

Do as you say, not as you do, right?


Completely predictable.

There would be no need for a separate law requiring immunity from liability specific to gun manufacturers if it only covered what you all claim.


You tell me. Right here in GD in front of everyone on DU, what the law in question does, beyond what I claim, that you object to. Myself and many many others would really like to know.

"Stump for the unfettered profits of gun manufacturers to someone else."


Stump for lies falsehoods and outright fantasy to someone else.

"killed to line the pockets of the merchants of death"


Wow. Just wow. You have the cart before the horse. Whatever profit there is, happens before any killing happens, and
happens whether there is subsequent killing or not. It therefore can not be as you portray it.

Beyond that...


You can't be bothered to take 5 minutes to read the law for yourself, instead of what this or that person group or source says about it.

That's not on anyone but you.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #27)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:35 PM

86. Because Winchester, Remington, and Colt are just good ol' mom-n-pops.

 

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #86)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:21 PM

108. In Bernie's world

 

I guess so.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #27)

Thu May 7, 2015, 01:14 AM

157. PUMAs sharpening their claws..

and so early in the game.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:15 PM

30. I thought he got an F from the NRA????????

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Response to MADem (Reply #30)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:48 PM

46. The NRA is biased against Democrats

We'd have to look at other ratings groups.

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #46)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:53 PM

51. Well, my point is that anyone who gets an "F" from the gun nuts can hardly be categorized as

a "gun nut."

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Response to MADem (Reply #51)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:00 PM

61. He's fine from a pragmatic person's point of view. But many of his most vociferous supporters on DU

 

have spent years attacking pragmatists.

I'm a Social Democrat with some very far left inclinations… but I am also pragmatic. I've been attacked for that pragmatism quite relentlessly.

Final edit- and I am a prospective Sanders supporter. Waiting just a bit to see who else jumps in. But will be sending him some money.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #61)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:05 PM

69. "Pragmatic" seems to be the term of choice for social liberals

willing to accept DLC economic positions.

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #69)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:58 PM

96. Well, since I'm not just a social liberal maybe it's more ideologues who are just intolerant.

 

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #61)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:44 PM

90. My mama always told me to not stoop to the level of people who play dirty.

I just don't think it's fair to characterize the guy as a gun nut, when the gun nuts hate him so. He represents his constituents, some of whom own guns, and he tries to be responsive to their wishes as best he can manage. That is what politicians are supposed to do, after all--speak for their states. I'm sure, if VT relied on coal mining for their bread and butter instead of dairy cows, he'd have different views about the need for that industry.

I find it highly unlikely that I will have an opportunity to vote for Senator Sanders, because I probably won't vote for him in the primary. If lighting strikes and he gets the nomination, I'll vote for him in the general (and await, in dread, the coronation of some Republican lunatic come January, because he will not win the White House--of that, I am certain).

I am not going to diss the guy. His heart is in the right place, and his motives are good. So are the motives of the Dems who have declared or are exploring Presidential runs. Just because I don't think he's optimal for the task doesn't mean I don't think he's a nice guy and a good Senator to his constituents. I just don't think he represents the hopes, dreams and concerns of a broad swathe of the party, and he's got other issues (name recognition, age, e.g.) that don't appeal across the board and will be an impediment.

I don't find all the carping and seizing on one minor issue and twisting it--like this "gun nut" thing--useful at all. It's shit stirring. It's click-bait fighting. It's not true. It's a waste of time. Senator Sanders most likely wouldn't approve of people getting snide and nasty, or starting fights, in his name, either, I don't think.

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Response to MADem (Reply #90)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:03 PM

98. He isn't a gun nut. I never called him that or agreed w/that assessment.

 

But then I also don't ever expect any elected Democrat or politician to be ideologically "pure" cause I'm not an intolerant ideologue.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #98)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:16 PM

105. Look at the very first post in this thread.

That's what started this kerfluffle...and a hundred posts later, I don't expect any "resolution."

I don't think anyone really cares about how candidates feel about issues anymore. It's more about Team Sports. People are "fans" of this one or that one, and they want to beat down anyone who isn't backing their favorite.

It's a shame. DU didn't used to be this bad.

My attitude? The worst Democrat is better than the best Republican. Bar none.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:15 PM

31. Hey Bernie is a gun nut

 

Sorry you can't defend it.

Proceed with the strawman antics like Hillary isn't liberal Bernie fans.

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Response to workinclasszero (Reply #31)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:23 PM

35. He's still more liberal than Hillary, and you can't defend that

 

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Response to workinclasszero (Reply #31)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:26 PM

36. Sandy Hook massacre of little kids with no where to hide.

What a compassion-less statement to make following such a horror.
This pro gun stance of his will leave a big bruise.
And well it should.
Not all peace & prosperity is he?

Guess he'll get the GunNut Vote, however.
Hey he's just another politician.
Oh well.

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Response to misterhighwasted (Reply #36)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:11 PM

76. "pro-gun stance" will help him with Democrats sick of this prohi- issue.

 

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #76)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:37 PM

87. I think your pro-gun bias is showing.

Perhaps you're not aware of the high priority gun control has among most progressives. Or maybe you are.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #87)

Wed May 6, 2015, 04:05 PM

118. My pro 2A bias has always been showing...

 



I am not convinced of that "high priority". Among the declining MSM, certain entrenched big city public offices, and a few other elite concentrations, gun control seems to be a " high priority;" otherwise, there is little deep support, IMO.

This is a rare but fruitful discussion about both gun policy, and Democratic Party policy priorities. In GD, yet! I cannot prove this, but it seems that the locus of gun control/prohibition in DU seems more closely fitted to the corporate centrism characterizing the Democratic Party's elite, Rather than to "left" ideologies. If Pew Research is correct, the long-relied upon support for gun control within African-American communities in some big cities may be desolving.

Most of what I see on DU is culture war by (gun) proxy.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #118)

Wed May 6, 2015, 06:15 PM

129. Uh Oh. You're been accused of not being progressive by someone who seems to think they know.

 

What shall we ever do?

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #129)

Wed May 6, 2015, 07:09 PM

135. I don't think Mineral man thinks I am not a progressive...

 

Just pointing out that I consider a liberal position on 2A is not what some here on DU think it is.

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Response to workinclasszero (Reply #31)


Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:16 PM

32. He could be doing better...

 

Voted YES on banning high-capacity magazines of over 10 bullets.


But, at least he voted yes for this...
Voted YES on prohibiting product misuse lawsuits on gun manufacturers.

Voted YES on prohibiting suing gunmakers & sellers for gun misuse.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:18 PM

33. Oh this is going to be fun.

 

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #33)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:52 PM

93. I wouldn't worry

We have been told only gunnuts are single issue voters.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:43 PM

39. Let's see, not a Democrat, check. Loves guns, check. Trashes Clintons, check.

What's not to love?

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #39)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:11 PM

74. I agree with Bernie. Tougher gun laws won't keep tragedies from occuring.

People who really want a gun will be able to get them....just like recreational drugs.

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Response to Avalux (Reply #74)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:20 PM

107. They'd keep accidents and suicides from occurring

and every gun death is a tragedy even if it doesn't get in the papers. And agreeing with him on this issue doesn't make it any less problematic. Not determinative necessarily, but part of a bigger picture that looks more Libertarian than Democratic, at least to me.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:43 PM

40. economic populist and middle-class pugilist

 

i get in trouble when i say this. lol

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #40)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:04 PM

66. Yeah, but you say it like it's a bad thing...

this author points it out as a good thing.

Economioc populism is a good thing (you feel that it ignores women; I disagree).
Fighting for the middle class is also a good thing.

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Response to cyberswede (Reply #66)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:13 PM

78. i say what it is. it is a good thing. it is a good thing for middle class, white and men. lol.

 

it is a BIG thing to address. and needs to be addressed across the nation and the excitement to see it happening. and it does not address all. that is the bad thing, that people do not want to hear.

while listening that clinton is moving more progressive in a recent OP. i am thinking i sit more comfortably in progressive than economic populist. i am learning and wondering. economic populist just has to be defined as trickle down from the middle, imo.

anyway... really, ... really, really, i am NOT getting into that this thread.

i want both.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:46 PM

43. Guns plus Bernie

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:48 PM

44. I'd say he represents his state which is rural and hunts. And I believe he calls for mental health

 

provisions.

That said my main issue w/Sanders and guns is he gives legal immunity to gun manufacturers.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #44)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:11 PM

75. Legal immunity for what? N/T

 

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:55 PM

53. This is an important issue for many progressive voters.

It's something he'll have to address. Voting against the Brady Act requires a good explanation, I think.

I'm sure he'll have an answer for this.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #53)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:15 PM

81. I don't see gun control being an issue during the campaign

I doubt anyone will ask him about it nor will you see him volunteering information on the subject. This a sleeping dog all concerned want to remain sleeping so they don't get bit.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #81)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:17 PM

83. I'm certain that you're wrong. The question about his Brady Act vote

will be raised during the primary campaign. Gun control is always an issue for many progressive voters. It's a major issue for a large number of people. To say that it won't be raised is to ignore the real concerns people have about firearms.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #83)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:22 PM

84. Every poll places gun control low on voter's priority lists

it is hard to see progressives abandoning him on this single issue. He could very well conclude that progressives will vote for him regardless of his positions on guns - who else will they be voting for?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #84)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:34 PM

85. I didn't say people would abandon him over this. I said it's a question

he will have to answer. I note that you're a frequent poster in the gungeon. What's your position on gun control issues?

The question will come up. His answer will be his answer. What happens then, I can't predict. I'm a firearms owner who is in favor of strong gun control measures. Your opinion may differ from mine.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #85)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:42 PM

88. I support all proposed gun control legislation with two exceptions

I do not support an AWB or registration.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #81)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:37 PM

113. First debate it will be asked , bet on it

 

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:56 PM

56. I couldn't care less about gun control

 

Gun control is a loser.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #56)

Thu Jun 4, 2015, 03:24 AM

161. "Gun control is a loser." Man! You sure got that right!!!

As true today as when it was first published:

http://www.thenation.com/article/democrat-killer

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 01:57 PM

59. If this is true, Sanders can't get my vote

I need to hear from Sanders supporters about this. How has he voted on gun control? I can't support an anti-gun control Dem in the primary.

Okay, I've read the article. In voting for the NRA and against gun control, he was supported a domestic war, more deadly than Iraq. People complain about Clinton's Iraq war vote, but we are living a domestic war with more Americans killed by guns since 1968 than all the wars in US history combined, including the Civil War. That is a war far more deadly than the imperialist incursions the US engages in abroad.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:04 PM

68. It seems the gun-controllers lean toward neo-liberalism. Not surprised.

 

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:06 PM

71. philosslayer: Please spread the word.

 

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:15 PM

80. This is worded like it's a bad thing.

You want to win the south? Support the 2A.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:17 PM

82. War nut or gun nut, whichever shall I choose?

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Response to CharlotteVale (Reply #82)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:45 PM

92. Guns kill far more Americans than wars.

They don't get as much press, of course, but 30,000 people die every year here from gunshot wounds, far more than Americans killed in all of Iraq, Afghanistan, and 9-11 combined.

In fact, the total number of Americans killed in Vietnam was around 60,000, which comes to two years of gun deaths. There's no monument to gun violence victims, but it's a huge problem.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #92)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:24 PM

110. Personally, I'm for gun control. The stricter the better.

Yet I still prefer Bernie to Hillary.

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Response to CharlotteVale (Reply #82)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:37 PM

114. Gun nuts kill far more americans than war does

 

Ohio boy, 3, picks up unattended gun, fatally shoots toddler in face

A toddler was killed in Cleveland, Ohio, on Sunday afternoon when a 3-year-old boy accidentally shot him with a gun that had been left unattended in a home, police said.

At least one person was home at the time of the shooting, but Cleveland Police Chief Calvin Williams said investigators hadn't determined who owned the gun.

The toddler, who was 1 years old, was pronounced dead at the hospital after he was shot in the face, WEWS-TV reported.


http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2015/04/ohio_boy_3_picks_up_unattended.html

No worries gun humpers, Bernie will protect you!!

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Response to workinclasszero (Reply #114)

Wed May 6, 2015, 04:31 PM

119. Did you miss where I said I was for gun control?

Apparently so.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:43 PM

89. There is a time and a place

 

for firearms and hunting in our society.

Just wait until Katrina blows everything in existence away and you have wild animals showing up in your yard.

And yes, that was worse than the raccoon incident - way worse.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #89)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:06 PM

99. Don't confuse restricting guns with banning their use altogether.

Society has the right, for the common good, to restrict what kinds of guns may be used and by whom. It is common sense to keep guns out of the hands of felons and the insane.

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Response to Koinos (Reply #99)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:42 PM

115. I agree!

 

Like I said, there is a time and a place for them.

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Response to Koinos (Reply #99)

Wed May 6, 2015, 05:35 PM

123. Lotsa luck, persuading pro-gun militants of that distinction.

They've been taught to ignore and disdain such differing approaches to gun policy. Interesting, but certainly not surprising, to see that Bernie's modulated stance on firearms still earns him an "F" rating from the NRA.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #123)

Wed May 6, 2015, 05:46 PM

124. "Bernie's modulated stance on firearms still earns him an "F" rating from the NRA."

 

And a "gun nut" label from the doctrinaire anti-gun folks.


I'm sure you simply forgot to mention that.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:44 PM

91. Bernie can't be brought down on the issues. You might want to go back to criticizing his hair.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:56 PM

94. Lol!

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 02:59 PM

97. Gun Culture

To qualify as a civilized society, I think we have to do something about unrestricted proliferation of guns.

As a nation, we seem to be going in the opposite direction at this time. The second amendment was never meant to return us to a Hobbesian state of nature.

The wild, wild west was nothing compared to what we are getting in some of our United States. Even in Tombstone, folks were required to check their guns. Nineteenth-century law enforcement understood that open carry was not a good idea.

If Bernie Sanders wants to be president of the United States, and not just president of Vermont, he will have to rethink his position on this issue.

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Response to Koinos (Reply #97)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:09 PM

101. Do you realize American is enjoying historically low levels of violence?

they have been steadily falling for 20 years - we have cut our murder and manslaughter rate in half since 1992.

We are not going in the opposite direction.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #101)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:22 PM

109. How well are we doing in that area compared to Scandinavia?

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Response to Koinos (Reply #109)

Wed May 6, 2015, 04:04 PM

117. Those goal posts heavy?

lets talk about America and whether it is getting safer or not.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #117)

Wed May 6, 2015, 06:07 PM

126. In fact, Bernie uses those goal posts for other social issues.

Are Scandinavian countries democratic-socialist? It could be that a gun culture has no place in a "civilized" society.

If Bernie can compare Scandinavia with US rankings, then so can I. Actually, I found it refreshing that Bernie asked that we look to other countries for democratic-socialist solutions.

And where did you get the 20% stat from (link for my benefit)? How was it determined? I believe that some places in America have become safer, while others have become more dangerous. The effect on people depends on the where.

How do you square your stat with the nation's higher incarceration rate?

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Response to Koinos (Reply #126)

Wed May 6, 2015, 07:59 PM

151. We were addressing your contention that America was heading in the wrong direction

regarding violence.

It was a 50% reduction. And the facts come from the FBI in their annual report on crime. It is hard to think of a place were violence went up significantly. Even Chicago has seen a significant drop in gun violence from the early 90's. Don't you remember how bad the crack epidemic was?

The prisons are full because of the war on drugs. They are full of non-violent drug offenders.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #151)

Wed May 6, 2015, 10:37 PM

154. Mistake on my part.

You said twenty years and not 20%. My eyes were tired when I misread that.

I look forward to hearing more clarification from Bernie about all of this. Bernie is entirely capable of changing his mind after reviewing a particular issue. I hope he does so with questions about his position on gun control.

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Response to Koinos (Reply #97)

Wed May 6, 2015, 08:31 PM

153. No, I really don't think so.

 

If Bernie Sanders wants to be president of the United States, and not just president of Vermont, he will have to rethink his position on this issue.


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/02/white-house-releases-photo-of-obama-shooting-shotgun/



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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:08 PM

100. You will never agree 100% with any candidate.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 03:16 PM

104. Of all the complicated and complex issues facing America, and the world today,

this one is not even on the first page as relates to his running for President. As it is, politically, it probably gets him some votes should he end up the nominee...........

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 06:17 PM

130. So what you're saying is that he's not a 'purity troll'?

Yeah, Bernie supporters know he's not perfect. Just the best thing we've been offered so far.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 06:21 PM

131. Stir that pot! Gonna get old after a year...but please don't stop now!

 

We need some form of entertainment here and you seem willing to provide...

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 06:29 PM

132. Color me unconcerned ...

 

Bernie has so much going for him that even this cannot derail my support ... (I am pro-gun-control)

Bernie or Warren first, warts and all ...

Hillary second, if she wins the primary season ...

It is that simple ...

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 06:38 PM

133. I am in favor of gun control, but it's not my primary issue.

 

In fact, I'm OK with Bernie's stance on gun control but I understand that many may prefer that he take a harder line.

On the other hand, I'm enthusiastically in favor of his positions on the economy, foreign policy, and civil rights.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 06:54 PM

134. But he never voted to have American guns

Used in foreign countries. So there's that.

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 07:15 PM

137. The Hill camp must have issued it's orders.

Smear Sanders anywhere you see his name.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #137)

Thu May 7, 2015, 05:56 AM

160. The truth is smear?

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 07:16 PM

138. Rated F by the NRA, indicating a pro-gun control voting record

 

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 07:30 PM

146. LOLOL! I love the smell of desperation in the morning.

 

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 07:35 PM

147. unrec (sometimes I wish that were around)

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Wed May 6, 2015, 07:40 PM

148. You posted a link to a just released article from a widely read source using the exact same title

that they used and are accused of lying, being "desperate" and "smearing" Bernie Sanders. I guess the author will soon be accused of being a pro-Hillary shill any second now.

This place makes no sense.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #148)

Thu May 7, 2015, 12:51 AM

156. No, the author doesn't like Hillary either

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/07/21/hillary_clinton_s_record_on_gay_rights_and_lgbt_rights_is_confusing.html
Hillary Clinton Should Be a Gay Rights Icon—So Why Isn't She?

By Mark Joseph Stern


Hillary Clinton’s LGBTQ supporters desperately want her to be a gay rights icon—or at least a staunch advocate for the community. But given that Clinton is emphatically not a gay rights icon, or even a particularly steadfast ally, this desire has led to some awkward cognitive dissonance. Her apparent position on gay marriage—leave it to the states—is about as progressive as Dick Cheney’s circa 2004. (It’s also constitutionally incoherent.) Her biggest gay rights achievement to date is a single speech that doesn’t mention marriage. In fact, until 2013, Clinton’s public views on marriage equality seemed to be about the same as Brendan Eich’s.

This mixed record—further blackened, fairly or not, by her association with the man who signed DOMA—is theoretically forgivable. But Clinton has done almost nothing to encourage the LGBTQ community to forgive her. Her gay marriage metamorphosis in 2013—which the Economist dubbed a “farcically late conversion”—arrived with no attendant mea culpa for her decades of misjudgment. Nor were any such apologies to follow. And when NPR’s Terry Gross gently prodded Clinton for an explanation of her evolution in June, Clinton clumsily dodged and wriggled, turning a softball into a painful PR calamity. (In an extraordinary case of scrambled allegiances, some conservatives actually defended Clinton’s evasion.)

Hmm, I see a pattern forming. Who do you suppose this author will write about next?

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Response to philosslayer (Original post)

Thu May 7, 2015, 12:33 AM

155. This is where that don't be a purist thing kicks in.

 

I also think bad people are going to get guns no matter what laws are passed. Guns and alcohol get people killed. Unless we totally get rid of guns and alcohol, nothing is going to stop that. Nothing.

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