The Good Thing About Fast Track......

[msanthrope]

It's straight up or down.

No abortion and reproductive rights riders.

No exempting certain companies from wage and human rights regulations.

No climate change deniers screwing around with the environmental regulations.

I'm liking the IP protections (I am a US patent and copyright holder.) I think I'll wait until its release before I make a final decision as to their TPP itself, but I do like the streamlining of Fast Track.

[geek tragedy]

1. I lean towards supporting fast track and opposing passage of the agreement itself.

But, that doesn't fit with reality or with the terms of the debate, so

[msanthrope]

2. That may be how I end up. So far, though,

not seeing much of the difference between what we already have and the TPP. I think there's a definite advantage to renegotiating trade agreements with Mexico and Canada while a Democrat is in office......

[geek tragedy]

3. On the other hand, the tribunal enforcement mechanisms and recouping of lost investments etc

can be extremely troubling.

A Canadian mining company has been trying to sue Costa Rica in one of those tribunals for over a billion dollar because Costa Rica wouldn't honor mining permits that had been acquired via corruption and inaccurate environmental impact studies (open pit gold mine in the middle of critical rainforest habitat--what could go wrong?)

Also, the "better under a Democrat than a Republican" was the theory behind the deficit reduction commissions. Turned out playing defense on that subject was a really horrible idea--lead to Obama's worst moment as president--the first debt standoff in 2011.

[msanthrope]

8. the thing is the United States has never lost an investor case and we've had 60 odd trade agreements

in the modern era that included this provision. So our track record is excellent, but that doesn't mean we don't run a risk.

I agree with you about 2011 and the debt commissions.......but I don't think Obama is playing defense here I think he's on the offensive.

[geek tragedy]

10. part of the problem is that we're being asked to buy a pig in a poke

I generally trust the president's instincts, but given the lack of labor and environmental groups' participation in the drafting of this compared to corporate interests . . .

[msanthrope]

12. labor and environmental groups were part of the 500 entities

involved in the drafting and commentary process. but I think the thing that people forget is that because this is a governmental treaty the Department of Labor and the EPA are also going to have the responsibility of protecting the American citizen. and that's where you have to ask yourself which administration do you want renegotiating this?

[Andy823]

24. Excellent points

I did not like NAFTA because I think we need FAIR trade agreements were we help workers in other countries get "better, pay and better working conditions" instead of lowering wages and working conditions in the US, or outsourcing to countries that have lower standards and wages. If we can accomplish this with the TPP, then I am all for it. I trust the president more than I trust all the "anonymous" leakers, or the anti Obama group here on DU that seem to be pushing their anti Obama agenda on the TPP agreement. The won't listen to anything positive, and can't provide any real proof of all the bad things they say are in the TPP agreement. Once again they just set their hair on fire and take off running!

[mmonk]

4. And no say so by those affected negatively.

[msanthrope]

6. Actually. ...nearly 500 entities, including trade unions were part of the drafting negotiations.

I look at this pragmatically do you want a Democrat renegotiating trade agreements with Mexico and Canada or do you want the next Republican? because the fact is we already have free trade agreements with Mexico and Canada and they're up for renegotiation. I think becoming trading partners with countries like Australia and New Zealand and Peru might be a good thing for us.

[mmonk]

7. These agreements, I think, haven't really been about trade

but more about globalization. It's not like the old days when countries conducted negotiations between themselves to represent the workers in their respective countries to get new markets for their goods.

[msanthrope]

9. the geopolitical aspect with regards to Russia and China and the TPP

has certainly been given short shrift here. recursions very excellent posts on this issue have largely been ignored because too much of the TPP criticism fails to take into account the geopolitical aspects of this free trade deal.

we need an effective counterweight to Chinese free trade..

[mmonk]

11. The ony difference is firms from other countries set up shop

in China so they then can ship them back to their own countries and others due to these types of agreements without barriers. We need a counterweight to the whole idea as currently done, not more of these scenarios. Or we can wait while wages here continue to decline along with safety and environmental standards till we become "competitive".

[msanthrope]

13. China is not part of this Agreement and China dislikes the TPP.

the intellectual property aspects of the TPP are especially troubling to China. and you prove my point onfast track denying the Republicans the ability to amend environmental protection sandwich protection that are already in the TPPis a darn good idea.

[JustAnotherGen]

14. This - is noted - thank you

the intellectual property aspects of the TPP are especially troubling to China.

They should be. Considering what goes on . . .

I'll look for recursion's post on these. I've generally stayed out until the past few days because I'm a devil is in the details person. Until I see the final document that will be voted on - I simply don't know what is in there. I'm not going to lose my shit over something the way some folks have.

[Depaysement]

26. Which unions were part of the drafting?

Not the AFL-CIO. Not UNITE HERE. Not the Teamsters. The USW doesn't like it.

[GummyBearz]

5. Fast track: like ripping off a bandaid before making sure the cut is healed

...just rip that band aid off so it doesn't pull out your arm hairs. If it turns out the cut is still bleeding, we got more bandaids in the future to put on

[msanthrope]

15. I think there's an advantage to ripping that bandaid off before

the 2016 election season starts in earnest......let's get it done up or down.

[HereSince1628]

16. Blah. I'd like to a democratic congress to be able to forward to a r president

the r presidents agreements with proper amendments...

Giving presidents running room has worked very well .... the US hasn't declared war on anyone since 1941, and just look at us.

I'd rather Congress do it's job.

[msanthrope]

17. Tell me which house of Congress we control that can pass these amendments?

How do Democratic amendments get passed here?

[HereSince1628]

20. When you make bills that span 6 years, -Situation NOW- can't be the concern

A legislator would be silly to limit future options that way.

[msanthrope]

21. What? nt

[HereSince1628]

22. The fast-track authority is to last 6 years & you seem to ignore a chance of a dem Congress

to be able to pass such amendments in that time.

There is a chance H> isn't going to be elected. I think it's prudent to hedge against that possibility.

[msanthrope]

23. I don't have a problem with fast track extention. With a Dem Congress and a Hillary loss, any

Republican President would be defeated by simple majority, no? And the Repubs would be prevented from attaching amendments.

We have to get out to the polls in 2016.

[Cali_Democrat]

18. You mean you're not gonna douse your hair with gasoline and light yourself on fire...

...before the final agreement is reached and subsequently published?

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[msanthrope]

19. That's right...I'm going to wait to read it before I decide to lose my shit. nt

[Andy823]

25. K&R nt