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CNN-ORC Poll-Clinton-(D) 56% -Bush ($) 39% /Clinton (D) 55% Rubio ($) 41% (Original Post) DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 OP
Kick & recommending with a link. William769 Apr 2015 #1
Thank you sir and may your week will be a pleasant one./NT DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #2
She's crushing Rand and Marco among millennials 68-26 and 64-29 DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #3
Wow. There goes the GOP's "youth vote".nt sufrommich Apr 2015 #6
What bounds does this use for inclusion in millennials? HereSince1628 Apr 2015 #7
I just used 18-34 year olds as a proxy. DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #10
thanks HereSince1628 Apr 2015 #12
You're welcome. DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #14
I would say culturally, yes 1980 (me). I identify far more with my partner (1983) than MillennialDem Apr 2015 #16
DU rec...nt SidDithers Apr 2015 #4
Interesting. Last week's close poll was obviously a stray blip on the radar. LonePirate Apr 2015 #5
The last nat'l poll was from FOX so make out of it what you will DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #8
Here's hoping that if she gets the nomination, she has serious coattails Blue_Adept Apr 2015 #9
Rubio polls better than Bush? Renew Deal Apr 2015 #11
Not surprising. The negatives associated with the name Bush overwhelm the stevenleser Apr 2015 #13
Once they know him, lark Apr 2015 #39
I agree. Luckily this cycle, I don't know if there is a constituency in the GOP for him. stevenleser Apr 2015 #41
Sniff, sniff lark Apr 2015 #59
K&R for Hillary beating the gops. Cha Apr 2015 #15
oh boy! 266 Democrats, 192 left-leaning Independents Cosmic Kitten Apr 2015 #17
How did your Chuy beats Rahm prediction work out? DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #18
sad how we would have people not cheer. i personally am happy to see those numbers with any dem. seabeyond Apr 2015 #20
She is going to try to get me into a week long mot argument about the efficacy of polling.... DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #21
You are looking at the wrong section of the polling.... Look at section 22. UCmeNdc Apr 2015 #22
a sampling error of +/-8.5 percentage points or less. Bwahahaha Cosmic Kitten Apr 2015 #23
How did your Chuy beats Rahm prediction work out? DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #25
INdeed, Rahm won with republic votes. Cosmic Kitten Apr 2015 #65
Remember, I told you I wasn't speaking to who should win but to who would win... DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #66
You are wasting your time... DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #24
I really hope the Unskewed Poll guy is going to cover the sufrommich Apr 2015 #35
That is pretty insulting. zeemike Apr 2015 #42
Autosearch is your friend. DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #45
So you say she is stalking you then? zeemike Apr 2015 #47
I am not your pinata. I don't do pinata well... DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #48
Well I am sorry you feel like a victim. zeemike Apr 2015 #50
The irony is you are personally attacking me while decrying my alleged personal attacks on others. DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #51
I have attacked what you said not you zeemike Apr 2015 #52
You suggested I am thin skinned and have a victim mentality. DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #53
Don't try to throw water on them. zeemike Apr 2015 #33
What poll said she won? NCTraveler Apr 2015 #57
If I told you what I was trying to accomplish you would not believe me. zeemike Apr 2015 #61
excellent. we are sitting pretty. nt seabeyond Apr 2015 #19
You paid Hillary Trolls Posting positive news about Hillary makes DU suck. hrmjustin Apr 2015 #26
Hey keep it up and no check for you! JaneyVee Apr 2015 #31
Damn! hrmjustin Apr 2015 #32
Okay, I think I just peed a little bit. Tarheel_Dem Apr 2015 #62
lol. hrmjustin Apr 2015 #64
Now how about Democrats not fuck it all up by dividing themselves and being conquered? Fred Sanders Apr 2015 #27
Any other Dem we could nominate would get the same result Ken Burch Apr 2015 #28
"Any other Dem we could nominate would get the same result." DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #30
What votes does she get that Warren or O'Malley wouldn't get? Ken Burch Apr 2015 #38
O'Malley is actually to her right of Ms. Clinton. DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #44
In answer to Ken Burch's question QuestionAlways Apr 2015 #60
They want fair trade...NAFTA can never be made into fair trade and neither can any other trade deal Ken Burch Apr 2015 #68
I do not disagree with you QuestionAlways Apr 2015 #69
How could you prove that when she is the only one? zeemike Apr 2015 #40
I simply asked my interlocutor to name six candidates DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #43
But none of them are running so how could they do that? zeemike Apr 2015 #49
The poll wouldn't be meaningless if she was losing in the mid to high teens./NT DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #56
Polls with other dems are out there. NCTraveler Apr 2015 #58
Here is what is intresting Robbins Apr 2015 #29
Wall Street is in absolute glee as well davidn3600 Apr 2015 #34
I did quite well under Bill...Under his successor I came close to literally losing everything. DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #36
That would be a massive landslide if those numbers hold up. DCBob Apr 2015 #37
These polls don't mean shit the election isn't in 2015 bigdarryl Apr 2015 #46
And yet we hear so much rhetoric that no one wants Hillary liberal N proud Apr 2015 #54
In great position this early in the game. NCTraveler Apr 2015 #55
As weird as it sounds, I actually think Rand Paul could be her biggest threat, but he'll never get.. Tarheel_Dem Apr 2015 #63
She's completely unelectable! No, I meant, it's due to her name recognition! No, wait, I meant.... Metric System Apr 2015 #67
K & R Scurrilous Apr 2015 #70
Interesting numbers. 20 plus percent gap among women vs Jeb. Mayberry Machiavelli Apr 2015 #71
Hillary is the one and only serious candidate workinclasszero Apr 2015 #72
Surprised to see Biden as #2, good to see Sanders at #3 and dissatisfaction with Sanders... freshwest Apr 2015 #73

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,708 posts)
3. She's crushing Rand and Marco among millennials 68-26 and 64-29
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 09:13 AM
Apr 2015

Demonstrates youth and wisdom are not mutually exclusive.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
7. What bounds does this use for inclusion in millennials?
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 09:22 AM
Apr 2015

I've seen that term applied back to birth dates of 1980. I'm never really sure what it means.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,708 posts)
10. I just used 18-34 year olds as a proxy.
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 09:27 AM
Apr 2015

Their anti marriage equality stance is a killer, imho. Once young folks know that, they assume you are a homophobe or bigot, and won't listen to anything else.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,708 posts)
14. You're welcome.
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 09:46 AM
Apr 2015

I suspect most nat'l Republicans secretly hope SCOTUS applies marriage equality to all fifty states so the issue is taken off the table.
But opposition to marriage equality is just part of a world view that most young folks find to be an anathema and there is little they can do to change that and remain who they are.


 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
16. I would say culturally, yes 1980 (me). I identify far more with my partner (1983) than
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 10:21 AM
Apr 2015

her brothers (1976 and 1974) in terms of outlook. Not that either of them are conservatives, I just mean as far as overall experience growing up. Hell, I really identify more with people born in 1990 than someone born in 1976....

Or you can just consider very late 70s and very late 80s "kids" as cuspers.

LonePirate

(13,407 posts)
5. Interesting. Last week's close poll was obviously a stray blip on the radar.
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 09:19 AM
Apr 2015

This group of Relublicans is simply impossible to support.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,708 posts)
8. The last nat'l poll was from FOX so make out of it what you will
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 09:23 AM
Apr 2015

The CNN polls have been consistent.


It's hard to compare polls because we don't have an objective standard to match it to until the election so all we can do is match them to the average of all polls.

IMHO, I do see shenanigans afoot... A close race gets more attention than a not close one.

Blue_Adept

(6,393 posts)
9. Here's hoping that if she gets the nomination, she has serious coattails
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 09:26 AM
Apr 2015

Her presence and fundraising needs to be a lift all boats for the party movement. The two houses need to sway back the other way and with the limited field that I see trying to enter the race, none have any real coattail ability to do this.

Renew Deal

(81,844 posts)
11. Rubio polls better than Bush?
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 09:32 AM
Apr 2015

There have been a bunch of bad poll numbers for Bush recently. He may want to consider not entering the race if this carries on.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
13. Not surprising. The negatives associated with the name Bush overwhelm the
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 09:38 AM
Apr 2015

benefits of name recognition.

Not many folks know Rubio yet so his negatives still aren't that high.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
41. I agree. Luckily this cycle, I don't know if there is a constituency in the GOP for him.
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 11:51 AM
Apr 2015

The establishment folks want Jeb, the far right social and pro-war conservatives want Walker or Cruz. The Libertarian wing of the GOP wants Rand. I don't think that leaves a Constituency for Rubio. It really tears me up.

Cosmic Kitten

(3,498 posts)
17. oh boy! 266 Democrats, 192 left-leaning Independents
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 10:32 AM
Apr 2015

POLL4-6-
April 16-19, 2015

BASED ON 266 RESPONDENTS WHO DESCRIBE
THEMSELVES AS DEMOCRATS AND 192 WHO
DESCRIBE THEMSELVES AS INDEPENDENTS
WHO LEAN DEMOCRAT
, FOR A TOTAL OF 458
DEMOCRATS

--
SAMPLING ERROR: +/-4.5 PERCENTAGE PTS

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2015/images/04/20/cnnorc2016poll04202015.pdf


DemocratSinceBirth

(99,708 posts)
18. How did your Chuy beats Rahm prediction work out?
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 10:35 AM
Apr 2015



There was a paucity of polling in that race but even with that caveat Rahm Beat Chuy by the amount the final poll predicted, ergo:


The following day, without the option to vote "undecided," Emanuel's lead jumped to 56.6 percent (474 votes), almost 13 percentage points ahead of Garcia's 43.4, or 364 votes.

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20150405/downtown/new-mayoral-poll-shows-emanuel-with-double-digit-lead-on-garcia

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
20. sad how we would have people not cheer. i personally am happy to see those numbers with any dem.
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 10:37 AM
Apr 2015

meh...

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,708 posts)
21. She is going to try to get me into a week long mot argument about the efficacy of polling....
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 10:41 AM
Apr 2015

Watch how I dispatch of her again.

UCmeNdc

(9,600 posts)
22. You are looking at the wrong section of the polling.... Look at section 22.
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 10:42 AM
Apr 2015

22. For the next few questions, let's assume that former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton will be the
Democratic presidential nominee in 2016. I'm going to read the names of a few Republicans who
may run for their party's nomination. After I read each one, please tell me if you would be more
likely to vote for that Republican candidate or if you would be more likely to vote for Hillary
Clinton. (RANDOM ORDER)
Former Florida Governor Jeb Bush
Other Neither No
Clinton Bush (vol.) (vol.) opinion
Apr. 16-19, 2015 56% 39% * 4% 1%
Mar. 13-15, 2015 55% 40% * 4% 1%
Dec. 18-21, 2014 54% 41% 1% 4% *
Jan. 31-Feb. 2, 2014 59% 36% * 3% 2%
Dec. 16-19, 2013 58% 36% 1% 4% 1%


http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2015/images/04/20/cnnorc2016poll04202015.pdf

Cosmic Kitten

(3,498 posts)
23. a sampling error of +/-8.5 percentage points or less. Bwahahaha
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 10:49 AM
Apr 2015
All respondents were asked questions concerning basic demographics, and the entire sample was weighted to reflect national Census figures for gender, race, age, education, region of country, and telephone usage.

Crosstabs on the following pages only include results for subgroups with enough unweighted cases to produce a sampling error of +/-8.5 percentage points or
less.

Some subgroups represent too small a share of the national population to produce crosstabs with an acceptable sampling error. Interviews were conducted among these subgroups, but results for groups with a sampling error larger than +/-8.5 percentage points are not displayed and instead are denoted with "N/A"


I'd like to know what the
Non-response rates were?
90%??

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,708 posts)
25. How did your Chuy beats Rahm prediction work out?
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 10:50 AM
Apr 2015




There was a paucity of polling in that race but even with that caveat Rahm Beat Chuy by the amount the final poll predicted, ergo:


The following day, without the option to vote "undecided," Emanuel's lead jumped to 56.6 percent (474 votes), almost 13 percentage points ahead of Garcia's 43.4, or 364 votes.

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20150405/downtown/new-mayoral-poll-shows-emanuel-with-double-digit-lead-on-garcia

Cosmic Kitten

(3,498 posts)
65. INdeed, Rahm won with republic votes.
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 02:16 PM
Apr 2015

Who knew republicans
would vote for the 3rd Way

Billionaire Who Backs Rahm Emanuel Also A Big GOP Donor
Groups supporting Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel's (D) re-election received $750,000 this month from a conservative hedge fund founder who also has given money to Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker (R) and conservative groups.

Ken Griffin, CEO of the hedge fund Citadel, has donated nearly $1 million to pro-Emanuel groups in the last year, including $750,000 since March 2, according to the Chicago Sun-Times.

Griffin has also contributed to Walker, Sen. Tom Cotton (R-Ark.), and Rep. Aaron Schock (R-Ill.). Schock, under fire for lavish spending, said on Tuesday that he would resign from Congress. Since last year, Griffin has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars American Crossroads, America Rising, the Republican National Committee and other conservative groups.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/17/rahm-emanuel-ken-griffin_n_6890152.html

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,708 posts)
66. Remember, I told you I wasn't speaking to who should win but to who would win...
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 02:21 PM
Apr 2015

Remember, I told you I wasn't speaking to who should win but to who would win, based on the available polling and the polling that you spend much of your time pooh poohing was vindicated.


I really don't know how they did it... There was only one election eve poll and that poll nailed the final result: 56%-44%.

sufrommich

(22,871 posts)
35. I really hope the Unskewed Poll guy is going to cover the
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 11:40 AM
Apr 2015

2016 race,his "reporting of the facts" was the highlight of election coverage for me. I loved it.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
42. That is pretty insulting.
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 11:54 AM
Apr 2015

I thought personal attacks were not permitted...it does not look good for a Hillary supporter.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,708 posts)
45. Autosearch is your friend.
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 12:06 PM
Apr 2015

Her raison d'etre is too follow me around and try to undermine the polls I post... I am sorry if I am not her, his your's, or anybody's pinata.


For the record if somebody started a thread where they cited a poll where another D was doing well against an R I wouldn't intrude into the thread and take the rhetorical version of a dump in it,

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
47. So you say she is stalking you then?
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 12:13 PM
Apr 2015

Because she posts about your polls?...and that justifies your violating the rules?
It only shows to me the thin skin of the HRC supporters.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
50. Well I am sorry you feel like a victim.
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 12:26 PM
Apr 2015

But I can assure you I am off sugar and won't bust you open to get to your candy.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
52. I have attacked what you said not you
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 12:36 PM
Apr 2015

I did not compare you to an ugly right winger. But when the projection begins I am through.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,708 posts)
53. You suggested I am thin skinned and have a victim mentality.
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 12:41 PM
Apr 2015

If you believe that is not a personal attack there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.

My thread was about skewing and unskewing, not ideology.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
33. Don't try to throw water on them.
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 11:34 AM
Apr 2015

The poll says she has won and that is all that matters...458 people have spoken.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
57. What poll said she won?
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 12:51 PM
Apr 2015

What poster said she won?

If your whole premise is based of something not borne out in reality, you should probably employ a different tactic to accomplish whatever it is you are trying to accomplish.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
61. If I told you what I was trying to accomplish you would not believe me.
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 01:10 PM
Apr 2015

Because it is all about the dichotomy of us and them...with us or against us.

Things like this are often used to take advantage of the band wagon effect...it is public relations 101...create the inevitability of a win and people will jump on board...because we all want to be winners.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
27. Now how about Democrats not fuck it all up by dividing themselves and being conquered?
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 10:51 AM
Apr 2015

The palpable panic of the fascists needs to be encouraged....President Clinton II will also have President Clinton I giving advise and surely part of Cabinet...it is all good.

Look at how BAD the alternative is to a Democratic President...just imagine.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
28. Any other Dem we could nominate would get the same result
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 10:54 AM
Apr 2015

There are no vote HRC gets that ONLY she can get.

The voters are not demanding that we back a militarist corporate toady as president(with economic policies by Lawrence Summers, what else can you call her?).

We're not still stuck in 1992.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,708 posts)
30. "Any other Dem we could nominate would get the same result."
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 11:00 AM
Apr 2015

Proof please.

Those numbers are extraordinary. I doubt they will hold but if they did it would be the biggest landslide for our side since 1964.

Thank you in advance.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
38. What votes does she get that Warren or O'Malley wouldn't get?
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 11:44 AM
Apr 2015

I'll grant you she might get some more than Bernie, but why assume that only the second-most conservative candidate we could possibly nominate could get?

The voters don't want us to stay in the Middle East. They don't want TPP or any more globalization. And they aren't obsessed with keeping budgets tight at the expense of everything else.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,708 posts)
44. O'Malley is actually to her right of Ms. Clinton.
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 12:03 PM
Apr 2015
https://www.crowdpac.com/elections/2016-presidential-election?l=104635&r=9999817




That being said, if any of these candidates thought they could do better than Ms. Clinton against her presumptive Republican opponents they would so because that would greatly bolster their candidacies. The fact they aren't suggests they can't.

 

QuestionAlways

(259 posts)
60. In answer to Ken Burch's question
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 01:07 PM
Apr 2015

The voters don't want us to stay in the Middle East, but they do want us to defend Israel or prevent Iran from having the Atomic Bomb and ICBMs which could threaten us

The voters don't want TPP or any more globalization, but they do want fair trade and to fix NAFTA

The voters want to keep budgets tight by eliminating fraud and waste and bloated government programs

The way you express yourself makes all the difference in the world

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
68. They want fair trade...NAFTA can never be made into fair trade and neither can any other trade deal
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 03:11 PM
Apr 2015

we are currently part of. All such deals are simply giveaways to corporate greed and the elimination of the ability of democratic governments to hold international corporations to any social accountability whatsoever.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
40. How could you prove that when she is the only one?
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 11:50 AM
Apr 2015

You are asking the question do you want six of this or one of that...if you don't want any of the six then what do you think they will pick?

The poll is meaningless except to pump you up with.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,708 posts)
43. I simply asked my interlocutor to name six candidates
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 11:56 AM
Apr 2015

I simply asked my interlocutor to name six candidates who do as well as Ms. Clinton against her presumptive Republican opponents and provide evidence as to why.


zeemike

(18,998 posts)
49. But none of them are running so how could they do that?
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 12:21 PM
Apr 2015

Hillary is the only one running and the public all know that because she has all the news coverage right now.

This poll is meaningless, especially this far out, except to create the illusion that she is the winner without even running.

Robbins

(5,066 posts)
29. Here is what is intresting
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 11:00 AM
Apr 2015

a small number of republicans and tea party supporters would crossover for her.Granted for some strange reason a small number of liberals would vote GOP over her but she gets more republican and tea party supporters.

Again Rubio and carson she still gets over 80% of non white vote showing blacks and hispanics aren't stupid and won't vote for someone just because they are black or hispanic

as expected she does well with under 50-killing idea she can't get younger support and republicans do better over 50.In presidential election that won't win white house for GOP.

Hillary can run as change candiate.last i checked we never had a female president.GOP congress is unpopular,and now they have to own it.People know her.what exactly are the GOP going to turn up on her that isn't already known.Email has no legs.People don't care.

This is hardly a left learning poll.

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
34. Wall Street is in absolute glee as well
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 11:36 AM
Apr 2015

They've got an easy ride while the working class will continue to suffer.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,220 posts)
63. As weird as it sounds, I actually think Rand Paul could be her biggest threat, but he'll never get..
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 01:30 PM
Apr 2015

the nomination, so it's all good.

Mayberry Machiavelli

(21,096 posts)
71. Interesting numbers. 20 plus percent gap among women vs Jeb.
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 07:34 PM
Apr 2015

More crossover her direction than the other way.

A pretty good start.

 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
72. Hillary is the one and only serious candidate
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 07:51 PM
Apr 2015

In this election!

She is savaged all the damn time by the hardcore right and the hard core left which means she carries the middle.....which gets you elected President in this country!

GO Hillary!

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
73. Surprised to see Biden as #2, good to see Sanders at #3 and dissatisfaction with Sanders...
Mon Apr 20, 2015, 10:05 PM
Apr 2015

On the question of his positions and the Democratic Party. I think he is purely Democrat, but I'm pretty old school, I guess.

Disturbing to see any of the GOP in the same ballpark as HRC. Really, America?

I didn't finish the PDF, but it seems they asked fair questions and not that biased, which is what I expected from CNN. So I'm not sure if these are likely voters or those who won't vote.

The enthusiasm question nearly answered that, but I sure don't see much at DU. If the poll is in any universe correct, the bashers number from 1 to 4% of the electorate. We're in a bubble.

I just don't like to see any sort of complacency about Clinton beating the GOP candidate so far out from the election. I think it's a good rallying cry for those who want her as nominee, and nothing wrong with it.

I'd rather hear that kind of praise and enthusiasm from supporters of Warren, Sanders, etc. The negativity is just sooo Tea Party, Republican, whatever to me.

People don't vote for a negative. But the negativity and personal smears, plus scandal mongering straight out of Breitbart, etc. is what got me defending Hillary.

She was never my candidate, despite her record, which I didn't know all about in terms of civil rights. The interviews of her during Clinton's first campaign when called to answer for Bill's problems, paradoxically, made me ill at ease with her.

She said such things as 'I'm not a stand by your man' woman like the Tammy Wynette song when asked about his sex life. Nor would she be 'sharing brownie recipes.' I thought, why does she even mention it?

Guess living in the South lent that flavor to her discussions, but I didn't want to go there.

Besides, dammit, I was voting for the candidate, not his wife. Then when he got elected, I blamed him for NAFTA. I only learned much later that Bush Sr. had signed it in 1992 and Clinton was stuck with it.

WTO was just more of the same, like TPP is, but the USA has not lost any of those hearings, and it was signed onto in 2005. Where were the labor and other voices in 2005?

The fact is that Asia doesn't need us anymore. We are no longer a superpower. We have to make deals with them. The USA was a third world nation for more year than it's been first world, that's history. We won't sink to the bottom of the sea because of it and Americans are sick and tired of what it takes to maintain empire. Not only that, many of us are culturally against empire, although some aren't.

Pat Buchanan and the Bircher isolationist policies have never really been in the Democratic lexicon. It was the GOP that opposed relations with China because of Communism until their man Nixon started that and they've never looked back. They took full advantage of cheap labor, even slave labor in China, to the deteriment of American workers.

Gotta go do something else.



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